On August 26 2012 07:38 ArvickHero wrote: KeSPA can always give the finger to eSF and say fuck you, we're doing a mass switch to LoL. Then the Korean SC2 scene will stagnate and see more finals like this.
Yeah, because ZvZ in BW finals was so much successful, right?
I'm done talking with you people, you're being willfully ignorant at this point, just like last time.
jaedong vs yarnc filled the stadium they rented out hmmm
perhaps it is you that is willfully ignorant
Truthfully speaking, I'll take the intensity level of Brood War Z v Z over StarCraft2's any matchup.
I remember lacking oxygen because of them.
Couldn't breath because of how boring and stagnant the ZvZ metagame was?
try ling-bling without the splash damage.
Roller coaster without any hills, curves, or loops.
On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote: I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports."
I think that their goal is to carry Korean E-Sports a step forward globally, and they feel that GOM and all of the foreign tourneys have done this. KeSPA has made a lot of claims about wanting to open up, but everyone, even the players, are skeptical of that, with good reason to be. They are fighting not just for GOM, but for the KeSPA players, the foreign players, and the fans globally I think. Most of the fans support GOM and what they have done for the community, that includes the SC2 pro players it appears.
This is just short sighted us vs them mentality. Consider what the scene has to lose by this. If the first OS2L ends up bombing because of this there's pretty much zero chance of the BW fanbase transitioning to SC2. If kespa can't transition then SC2 loses out on a massive amount of money and infrastructure. Dropping out doesn't benefit the fans or the players.
On August 25 2012 18:40 Otak wrote:
On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote: I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports."
Are you kidding? GomTv has been showing Starcraft 2 since 2010 and has done a very good job doing so. Kespa has recently started sc2 and now wants the monopoly on having ALL the big name players in one tournament. If you're too blinded to see that Kespa is just deliberately trying to shut GomTv out so that they become irrelevant again then I don't know what to say to you. And to be quite honest, I think in everyones mind, GSL is the premier sc2 tournament at the moment, not the Kespa league.
And so what if GOM does end up becoming irrelevant? Did you ever stop to consider that SC2 might be better off under kespa? They bring far more to the table in terms of resources and potential for growth. This is nothing more then petty factionalism.
Fully agree with you. Did you go to business school? Your analysis is very Michael Porter-ish.
And the new ayn rand generation steps in to defend Kespa.
Thanks for reinforcing my prejudices.
whaaaaaaaat the fuck does ayn rand have to do with this lol
On August 26 2012 10:05 ShatterZer0 wrote: I don't understand why people seem to think KESPA is right on this...
They are being unreasonable in protecting their brand and should be willing to step onto an even playing field.
Kespa players are still competing in Broodwar. It's not an even playing field.
If I understand correctly, by GSL5 they'll have fully transitioned, but ESF are insisting they play GSL before then.
But aren't they competing anyways in the OSL (before all this drama happened)? Even if they aren't "ready", Kespa still wants them to compete, just not in the GSL.
On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote: I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports."
I think that their goal is to carry Korean E-Sports a step forward globally, and they feel that GOM and all of the foreign tourneys have done this. KeSPA has made a lot of claims about wanting to open up, but everyone, even the players, are skeptical of that, with good reason to be. They are fighting not just for GOM, but for the KeSPA players, the foreign players, and the fans globally I think. Most of the fans support GOM and what they have done for the community, that includes the SC2 pro players it appears.
This is just short sighted us vs them mentality. Consider what the scene has to lose by this. If the first OS2L ends up bombing because of this there's pretty much zero chance of the BW fanbase transitioning to SC2. If kespa can't transition then SC2 loses out on a massive amount of money and infrastructure. Dropping out doesn't benefit the fans or the players.
I do not get it, how exactly are the BW fanbase and KeSPA transition related. The BW fanbase will need to become SC2 fanbase to be revelant, with or without KeSPA.
The BW fanbase is not bolted to KeSPA. They can remain BW fanbase, or become SC2 fanbase or become neither. It is not about OSL, it is about people choices.
On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote: I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports."
Are you kidding? GomTv has been showing Starcraft 2 since 2010 and has done a very good job doing so. Kespa has recently started sc2 and now wants the monopoly on having ALL the big name players in one tournament. If you're too blinded to see that Kespa is just deliberately trying to shut GomTv out so that they become irrelevant again then I don't know what to say to you. And to be quite honest, I think in everyones mind, GSL is the premier sc2 tournament at the moment, not the Kespa league.
And so what if GOM does end up becoming irrelevant? Did you ever stop to consider that SC2 might be better off under kespa? They bring far more to the table in terms of resources and potential for growth. This is nothing more then petty factionalism.
In case you do not know, foreign SC2 scene has bigger(finantial) resourses than Korean scene anyway. I`m not sure how much the Korean scene is currently financed by money that foreigners bring in various ways(vievers for streams, sponsors, foreign events attendance), but i wouldn`t hesitate to call it very significant, if not major money source.
Sure. I was merely contesting the description of the playing field as 'even.' It won't be until Proleague Finals are through; an extra reason to be wary of which and how many tournaments you submit your players to.
On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote: I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports."
I think that their goal is to carry Korean E-Sports a step forward globally, and they feel that GOM and all of the foreign tourneys have done this. KeSPA has made a lot of claims about wanting to open up, but everyone, even the players, are skeptical of that, with good reason to be. They are fighting not just for GOM, but for the KeSPA players, the foreign players, and the fans globally I think. Most of the fans support GOM and what they have done for the community, that includes the SC2 pro players it appears.
This is just short sighted us vs them mentality. Consider what the scene has to lose by this. If the first OS2L ends up bombing because of this there's pretty much zero chance of the BW fanbase transitioning to SC2. If kespa can't transition then SC2 loses out on a massive amount of money and infrastructure. Dropping out doesn't benefit the fans or the players.
On August 25 2012 18:40 Otak wrote:
On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote: I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports."
Are you kidding? GomTv has been showing Starcraft 2 since 2010 and has done a very good job doing so. Kespa has recently started sc2 and now wants the monopoly on having ALL the big name players in one tournament. If you're too blinded to see that Kespa is just deliberately trying to shut GomTv out so that they become irrelevant again then I don't know what to say to you. And to be quite honest, I think in everyones mind, GSL is the premier sc2 tournament at the moment, not the Kespa league.
And so what if GOM does end up becoming irrelevant? Did you ever stop to consider that SC2 might be better off under kespa? They bring far more to the table in terms of resources and potential for growth. This is nothing more then petty factionalism.
They dont give a fuck about growth outside Korea. They never did in BW, all they care about is their own seat of power. How many time you saw Flash/Bisu/Jaedong outside of asia playing BW? We see more tournament with top koran player in a single season than what we saw in ALL of the broodwar years.
Koreans went to won WCG every year, and also attended Blizzcon and IEF. Aside from that, what exactly were they supposed to play in? They couldn't exactly go to BW MLGs, so I don't really know what your point is. The international BW scene wasn't comparable to the international SC2 scene.
If Kespa decide you pay 10$ for every flash game you want to see what are you going to do.. Watch League of Legend? Bitch that Flash should leave the only place where he can make money!? Kespa is run by corporations. If they could legally charge organs for viewing games they would. Good market for organs on the asian black market.
KeSPA's content has always been free. This is because they have worked and worked to create a sustainable business model based on sponsorship and advertising. They will never charge you $10 to watch every Flash game. It's just wrong of you to suggest this. There are companies even now (MLG, GOM) who do charge you for content. You're welcome to complain to them, but I consider it a perfectly reasonable business model to sell people something they're willing to pay for. Not that it's a model KeSPA follows.
On August 26 2012 07:25 oBlade wrote: Okay, so we'll say that neither player base has an inherent advantage over the other. In that case:
Sorry to throw $0.02 into this argument, but you're both wrong (besides discussing the wrong topic) - ESF players do have an advantage over the KeSPA team players. ESF players can choose when and where to play, without worrying if their career just got flushed down the toilet.
This is just equivocation. The question of whether one set of players is more skilled than the other is relevant to whether anyone is shooting themselves in the foot by playing in tournaments across KeSPA/ESF borders. And that's an interesting question.
Sure, ESF players have a little more self-determination with respect to what paths their careers take. That doesn't mean they have an advantage. They also have less money and less (depending) stability. People have had 2 years to switch if they weren't happy with their team under KeSPA. The organizations are different. That doesn't make one better or worse per se.
It's not an equivocation. It's the main damn point. Does anyone care if Flash isn't playing as well as he used to? No, because he's bloody Flash. Does MvP's injury issue stop people from watching him play? No. Just having those two in one tournament will draw a lot of viewers, and generate additional revenues for the tournament organizers. The ability for players to appear in tournaments with each other is the crux of the issue. It helps to generate additional revenue for tournament organizers, teams, and popularity also helps players to make money. Controlling what tournaments the players enter controls the amount of exposure players get to new fans.
...The conversation went like this. JiPrime suggested the turn of events right now, or if KeSPA "gets their way," will lead to the destruction of GOM. But he also wanted to observe that ESF players weren't inferior. He's unreachable now, but I assumed he meant there was no appreciable difference between the skill/potential of ESF and KeSPA players (which I think is fair, if only because it's a non-informative prior). In that case, I explained GOM has nothing to fear, as they're offering a competitive product since neither set of players has an "advantage" (skill). So you jumped in and said (firstly that we were both wrong about neither side being more skilled) ESF did have an advantage, because they can go overseas. But now you're not talking about an advantage in the sense of their skill or potential, so while it's a nice rhetorical trick, it's not relevant to the specific point I was making.
Of course, it's an interesting question on its own. Exposure does benefit an industry based on advertising. And if nothing changes, KeSPA will already be exposing themselves (hopefully Bisu included) at the 2012 GSL S5, so I don't see any reason to be very rash about this. But labor is a commodity. The teams are invested in their players, so of course it's important not to send players around the world every week at the expense of the quality of SPL and OSL.
You're quite right, KeSPA and ESF are VERY different organizations. ESF represents the interests of players, as it is a player run organization. KeSPA represents the interests of KeSPA, and their sponsors, and that's about it. KeSPA treats its players as a commodity. There are a number of things that KeSPA does do well for their players (helping them to master the art of public relations) but that is still done for the benefit of KeSPA, not the individual.
This is not an issue of which set of players are better. It's irrelevant. It's an issue of "KeSPA, let your players decide if they want to play." ESF is even putting some leverage on GOM so that even with this drama, if KeSPA lets their players play, they can try.
If the players don't want to play in the GSL... fine. But let the PLAYERS decide that.
I don't understand. The players might also like to spend all their time playing online cups. They might like to take their winnings to the clubs rather than practicing. But they're employees, obviously SPL and OSL are a priority. Even if it were an issue, why does it become the ESF's responsibility to hold the OSL hostage?
When KeSPA decided (despite players indicating they were willing and eager) that OSL can benefit from the exposure that ESF's players would bring, but would not reciprocate with any other league. If KeSPA players are going to prioritize SPL and OSL, why shouldn't ESF players prioritize GSL, IEM, MLG, DreamHack, IPL, GSTL, IPTL, NASL, ESL, etc?
They agreed to Season 5. ESF players don't have any reason to prioritize MLG, Dreamhack, et al., because those are not ESF's own leagues. Of course, players regularly have to make decisions about what leagues they play in. Hero just had to skip the rest of WCS to go to MLG. But if the entire group of ESF players wants to go on strike in the middle of the OSL specifically to get KeSPA to go to Season 4, I don't think they should expect to play in the OSL again for a long time.
On August 26 2012 10:32 Severedevil wrote: Sure. I was merely contesting the description of the playing field as 'even.' It won't be until Proleague Finals are through; an extra reason to be wary of which and how many tournaments you submit your players to.
On August 26 2012 07:38 ArvickHero wrote: KeSPA can always give the finger to eSF and say fuck you, we're doing a mass switch to LoL. Then the Korean SC2 scene will stagnate and see more finals like this.
Yeah, because ZvZ in BW finals was so much successful, right?
I'm done talking with you people, you're being willfully ignorant at this point, just like last time.
If you think Korea has any say in the future of esports your mistaken. Yes korea currently has corporations involved and has done for a while but the euro and NA scenes havent even scratched the surface in the potential in the markets they reside in. The korean market in the future will be nothing compared to the chinese NA and Euro markets and by definition progamers follow the money.
Time will tell. Why people always tell that the korean market will be irrelevant in the future. Now the korean E-SPort scene is the best, produces the best players, there is really no doubt about that.
The volume. 50m s.Korea, vs 400m NA+Australia+NZ+ ~700mil EU and former SU countries, +1g China, +~1g India.
S.Korea will not become irrevelant, it will just decrease in importance, to maybe the level they are in current Olympics or something like that.
All this posturing is stupid. At some point they have to realize that Sc2 is global, and the E-sports market does have constraints. They should be working together to make sure that Korea continues to have the best players and most prestigious events in the world. There is so much competition from outside of korea, if Kespa and ESF continue to squabble and posture like this, they could both come out losers in the long run.
On August 26 2012 07:38 ArvickHero wrote: KeSPA can always give the finger to eSF and say fuck you, we're doing a mass switch to LoL. Then the Korean SC2 scene will stagnate and see more finals like this.
Yeah, because ZvZ in BW finals was so much successful, right?
I'm done talking with you people, you're being willfully ignorant at this point, just like last time.
If you think Korea has any say in the future of esports your mistaken. Yes korea currently has corporations involved and has done for a while but the euro and NA scenes havent even scratched the surface in the potential in the markets they reside in. The korean market in the future will be nothing compared to the chinese NA and Euro markets and by definition progamers follow the money.
Time will tell. Why people always tell that the korean market will be irrelevant in the future. Now the korean E-SPort scene is the best, produces the best players, there is really no doubt about that.
The volume. 50m s.Korea, vs 400m NA+Australia+NZ+ ~700mil EU and former SU countries, +1g China, +~1g India.
S.Korea will not become irrevelant, it will just decrease in importance, to maybe the level they are in current Olympics or something like that.
EPT
