On August 26 2012 07:38 ArvickHero wrote: KeSPA can always give the finger to eSF and say fuck you, we're doing a mass switch to LoL. Then the Korean SC2 scene will stagnate and see more finals like this.
Yeah, because ZvZ in BW finals was so much successful, right?
I'm done talking with you people, you're being willfully ignorant at this point, just like last time.
jaedong vs yarnc filled the stadium they rented out hmmm
perhaps it is you that is willfully ignorant
If you think Korea has any say in the future of esports your mistaken. Yes korea currently has corporations involved and has done for a while but the euro and NA scenes havent even scratched the surface in the potential in the markets they reside in. The korean market in the future will be nothing compared to the chinese NA and Euro markets and by definition progamers follow the money.
Time will tell. Why people always tell that the korean market will be irrelevant in the future. Now the korean E-SPort scene is the best, produces the best players, there is really no doubt about that.
The volume. 50m s.Korea, vs 400m NA+Australia+NZ+ ~700mil EU and former SU countries, +1g China, +~1g India.
S.Korea will not become irrevelant, it will just decrease in importance, to maybe the level they are in current Olympics or something like that.
5th in overall medal standings?
9% of gold medals of the top 5 contries(olympics), as opposed to basically having >80% of best players(SC2)? I`s say that is a big decrease in importance.
On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote: I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports."
I think that their goal is to carry Korean E-Sports a step forward globally, and they feel that GOM and all of the foreign tourneys have done this. KeSPA has made a lot of claims about wanting to open up, but everyone, even the players, are skeptical of that, with good reason to be. They are fighting not just for GOM, but for the KeSPA players, the foreign players, and the fans globally I think. Most of the fans support GOM and what they have done for the community, that includes the SC2 pro players it appears.
This is just short sighted us vs them mentality. Consider what the scene has to lose by this. If the first OS2L ends up bombing because of this there's pretty much zero chance of the BW fanbase transitioning to SC2. If kespa can't transition then SC2 loses out on a massive amount of money and infrastructure. Dropping out doesn't benefit the fans or the players.
I do not get it, how exactly are the BW fanbase and KeSPA transition related. The BW fanbase will need to become SC2 fanbase to be revelant, with or without KeSPA.
The BW fanbase is not bolted to KeSPA. They can remain BW fanbase, or become SC2 fanbase or become neither. It is not about OSL, it is about people choices.
On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote: I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports."
Are you kidding? GomTv has been showing Starcraft 2 since 2010 and has done a very good job doing so. Kespa has recently started sc2 and now wants the monopoly on having ALL the big name players in one tournament. If you're too blinded to see that Kespa is just deliberately trying to shut GomTv out so that they become irrelevant again then I don't know what to say to you. And to be quite honest, I think in everyones mind, GSL is the premier sc2 tournament at the moment, not the Kespa league.
And so what if GOM does end up becoming irrelevant? Did you ever stop to consider that SC2 might be better off under kespa? They bring far more to the table in terms of resources and potential for growth. This is nothing more then petty factionalism.
In case you do not know, foreign SC2 scene has bigger(finantial) resourses than Korean scene anyway. I`m not sure how much the Korean scene is currently financed by money that foreigners bring in various ways(vievers for streams, sponsors, foreign events attendance), but i wouldn`t hesitate to call it very significant, if not major money source.
On August 26 2012 10:05 ShatterZer0 wrote: I don't understand why people seem to think KESPA is right on this...
They are being unreasonable in protecting their brand and should be willing to step onto an even playing field.
Kespa players are still competing in Broodwar. It's not an even playing field.
If I understand correctly, by GSL5 they'll have fully transitioned, but ESF are insisting they play GSL before then.
If that would be the case, they wouldn`t play WCS, no? Maybe, they wouln`t even play SC2 OSL2, before full transitioning? Oh, wait, they actually do.
a) The Korean fanbase may not be tied to keSPA, but they ARE tied to OGN. Without OGN, because MBC Game doesn't exist anymore, the vast majority of the Korean fanbase doesn't watch games. They watch Starcraft on TV, not on their computer. GOM only broadcasts on online streams.
b) KeSPA absolutely has more money and resources than the foreign scene. They broadcast on television every week, unlimited broadcast time, put on the biggest events with the biggest crowds, and never charge a dime to watch content or attend live events. They have the biggest sponsors and their players make the most money outside of EG, and the stars make more than twice what even an EG player makes.
c) They played in WCS because it was a Blizzard-sponsored event that was happening RIGHT THEN. Blizzard was a part of the eSports Vision conference, and participation in the WCS was probably a part of KESPA's contract to get broadcasting rights to SC2.
On August 26 2012 09:04 ElephantBaby wrote: Is ESF 5?
Oh, my bad, he is just a baby.
Is this poster 5?
Oh, my bad, he is just a baby. I'm sorry Mr. BW elitist but Kespa is NOT in the right in this situation. They don't have a massive schedule, and everyone knows it, they have ONE tournament to prepare for(they can't prep for OSL if their original opponent suddenly disappears) and no reason to back out of GSL, AND MLG, after the deal that went on before which attempted to build trust between ESF and Kespa.
The scheduling excuse was a cover-up planned conveniently so that they could have the GSL players with them, but not share likewise. I am very confident the schedule for the ESF players is just as stacked as Kespa's if not more, with WCS Korea for a few, MLG this weekend, MvP and a bunch of players were at IEM last weekend.
This OSL had the potential to be so epic with the best KeSPA and GOM players fighting it out. All of this news makes me sad. Such problems should be solved sooner rather than later to avoid irreparable damage to the Korean SC2 scene. Unfortunately, I'm doubtful whether they can reach an agreement in time for this OSL/GSL.
On August 26 2012 03:05 attackmoveftw wrote: Did you see the audience for today's WCS finals? It was in a small studio that could only fit a few seats and almost half of them were foreigners. The previous GSL finals were a big embarrassment for GOM because they prepared a huge event but hardly anyone showed up. Apparently, GSL5 will be in Las Vegas or something. All the BW fans are long gone and only a few stragglers are left at PlayXP and Fomos. During the final-final sets of Squirtle vs Creator, the major topic of discussion at PlayXP was whether height is genetic or environmental. lol
SC2 is dead in Korea already.
That's quite a reach. Proof?
I presume you can read Korean?
Goto playxp and read the posts that correspond to when the finals were on. Here
Goto thisisgame and read how many posts are about SC2. Today was WCS finals right? Almost none.
Go rewatch today's finals when the camera pans across the audience.
On August 26 2012 03:05 attackmoveftw wrote: Did you see the audience for today's WCS finals? It was in a small studio that could only fit a few seats and almost half of them were foreigners. The previous GSL finals were a big embarrassment for GOM because they prepared a huge event but hardly anyone showed up. Apparently, GSL5 will be in Las Vegas or something. All the BW fans are long gone and only a few stragglers are left at PlayXP and Fomos. During the final-final sets of Squirtle vs Creator, the major topic of discussion at PlayXP was whether height is genetic or environmental. lol
SC2 is dead in Korea already.
That's quite a reach. Proof?
I presume you can read Korean?
Goto playxp and read the posts that correspond to when the finals were on. Here
Goto thisisgame and read how many posts are about SC2. Today was WCS finals right? Almost none.
Go rewatch today's finals when the camera pans across the audience.
On August 26 2012 03:05 attackmoveftw wrote: Did you see the audience for today's WCS finals? It was in a small studio that could only fit a few seats and almost half of them were foreigners. The previous GSL finals were a big embarrassment for GOM because they prepared a huge event but hardly anyone showed up. Apparently, GSL5 will be in Las Vegas or something. All the BW fans are long gone and only a few stragglers are left at PlayXP and Fomos. During the final-final sets of Squirtle vs Creator, the major topic of discussion at PlayXP was whether height is genetic or environmental. lol
SC2 is dead in Korea already.
That's quite a reach. Proof?
I presume you can read Korean?
Goto playxp and read the posts that correspond to when the finals were on. Here
Goto thisisgame and read how many posts are about SC2. Today was WCS finals right? Almost none.
Go rewatch today's finals when the camera pans across the audience.
On August 26 2012 03:05 attackmoveftw wrote: Did you see the audience for today's WCS finals? It was in a small studio that could only fit a few seats and almost half of them were foreigners. The previous GSL finals were a big embarrassment for GOM because they prepared a huge event but hardly anyone showed up. Apparently, GSL5 will be in Las Vegas or something. All the BW fans are long gone and only a few stragglers are left at PlayXP and Fomos. During the final-final sets of Squirtle vs Creator, the major topic of discussion at PlayXP was whether height is genetic or environmental. lol
SC2 is dead in Korea already.
That's quite a reach. Proof?
I presume you can read Korean?
Goto playxp and read the posts that correspond to when the finals were on. Here
Goto thisisgame and read how many posts are about SC2. Today was WCS finals right? Almost none.
Go rewatch today's finals when the camera pans across the audience.
On August 26 2012 03:05 attackmoveftw wrote: Did you see the audience for today's WCS finals? It was in a small studio that could only fit a few seats and almost half of them were foreigners. The previous GSL finals were a big embarrassment for GOM because they prepared a huge event but hardly anyone showed up. Apparently, GSL5 will be in Las Vegas or something. All the BW fans are long gone and only a few stragglers are left at PlayXP and Fomos. During the final-final sets of Squirtle vs Creator, the major topic of discussion at PlayXP was whether height is genetic or environmental. lol
SC2 is dead in Korea already.
That's quite a reach. Proof?
I presume you can read Korean?
Goto playxp and read the posts that correspond to when the finals were on. Here
Goto thisisgame and read how many posts are about SC2. Today was WCS finals right? Almost none.
Go rewatch today's finals when the camera pans across the audience.
On August 26 2012 03:05 attackmoveftw wrote: Did you see the audience for today's WCS finals? It was in a small studio that could only fit a few seats and almost half of them were foreigners. The previous GSL finals were a big embarrassment for GOM because they prepared a huge event but hardly anyone showed up. Apparently, GSL5 will be in Las Vegas or something. All the BW fans are long gone and only a few stragglers are left at PlayXP and Fomos. During the final-final sets of Squirtle vs Creator, the major topic of discussion at PlayXP was whether height is genetic or environmental. lol
SC2 is dead in Korea already.
That's quite a reach. Proof?
I presume you can read Korean?
Goto playxp and read the posts that correspond to when the finals were on. Here
Goto thisisgame and read how many posts are about SC2. Today was WCS finals right? Almost none.
Go rewatch today's finals when the camera pans across the audience.
... but then, you did pretty directly answer my question, so it's really my fault. Well done.
Your counter argument probably would have been that Jangbi vs Fantasy 2012 was the final OSL for Brood War therefore it would naturally have a vast crowd.
On August 26 2012 07:38 ArvickHero wrote: KeSPA can always give the finger to eSF and say fuck you, we're doing a mass switch to LoL. Then the Korean SC2 scene will stagnate and see more finals like this.
Yeah, because ZvZ in BW finals was so much successful, right?
I'm done talking with you people, you're being willfully ignorant at this point, just like last time.
If you think Korea has any say in the future of esports your mistaken. Yes korea currently has corporations involved and has done for a while but the euro and NA scenes havent even scratched the surface in the potential in the markets they reside in. The korean market in the future will be nothing compared to the chinese NA and Euro markets and by definition progamers follow the money.
Time will tell. Why people always tell that the korean market will be irrelevant in the future. Now the korean E-SPort scene is the best, produces the best players, there is really no doubt about that.
The volume. 50m s.Korea, vs 400m NA+Australia+NZ+ ~700mil EU and former SU countries, +1g China, +~1g India.
S.Korea will not become irrevelant, it will just decrease in importance, to maybe the level they are in current Olympics or something like that.
5th in overall medal standings?
9% of gold medals of the top 5 contries(olympics), as opposed to basically having >80% of best players(SC2)? I`s say that is a big decrease in importance.
Is reading comprehension my weakness, or isn't this supposed to be about Kespa/GOM/ESF?
On August 26 2012 03:05 attackmoveftw wrote: Did you see the audience for today's WCS finals? It was in a small studio that could only fit a few seats and almost half of them were foreigners. The previous GSL finals were a big embarrassment for GOM because they prepared a huge event but hardly anyone showed up. Apparently, GSL5 will be in Las Vegas or something. All the BW fans are long gone and only a few stragglers are left at PlayXP and Fomos. During the final-final sets of Squirtle vs Creator, the major topic of discussion at PlayXP was whether height is genetic or environmental. lol
SC2 is dead in Korea already.
That's quite a reach. Proof?
I presume you can read Korean?
Goto playxp and read the posts that correspond to when the finals were on. Here
Goto thisisgame and read how many posts are about SC2. Today was WCS finals right? Almost none.
Go rewatch today's finals when the camera pans across the audience.
... but then, you did pretty directly answer my question, so it's really my fault. Well done.
Your counter argument probably would have been that Jangbi vs Fantasy 2012 was the final OSL for Brood War therefore it would naturally have a vast crowd.
Yes, and that both Nate OSL and Monsieur J also had the added problem of unfortunate finals (Nate's favourites having lost early on, and Monsieur J being PvP) but that would set me up defending a position I really have no interest in defending, as other GSL finals (except maybe the very first) have not had attendance comparable to any OSLs I have ever watched either. So I already know that in the overall argument, I would have been on the losing side, it would be absurd for me to try arguing further. I just thought that in this specific instance, there was an interesting comparison to be made.
But really, I was just in this thread to find out if there was any news on whether players would be attending OSL/GSL, so I will humbly back out of this discussion, especially after you have so masterfully struck down my original argument.
On August 26 2012 03:05 attackmoveftw wrote: Did you see the audience for today's WCS finals? It was in a small studio that could only fit a few seats and almost half of them were foreigners. The previous GSL finals were a big embarrassment for GOM because they prepared a huge event but hardly anyone showed up. Apparently, GSL5 will be in Las Vegas or something. All the BW fans are long gone and only a few stragglers are left at PlayXP and Fomos. During the final-final sets of Squirtle vs Creator, the major topic of discussion at PlayXP was whether height is genetic or environmental. lol
SC2 is dead in Korea already.
That's quite a reach. Proof?
I presume you can read Korean?
Goto playxp and read the posts that correspond to when the finals were on. Here
Goto thisisgame and read how many posts are about SC2. Today was WCS finals right? Almost none.
Go rewatch today's finals when the camera pans across the audience.
... but then, you did pretty directly answer my question, so it's really my fault. Well done.
Your counter argument probably would have been that Jangbi vs Fantasy 2012 was the final OSL for Brood War therefore it would naturally have a vast crowd.
Yes, and that both Nate OSL and Monsieur J also had the added problem of unfortunate finals (Nate's favourites having lost early on, and Monsieur J being PvP) but that would set me up defending a position I really have no interest in defending, as other GSL finals (except maybe the very first) have not had attendance comparable to any OSLs I have ever watched either. So I already know that in the overall argument, I would have been on the losing side, it would be absurd for me to try arguing further. I just thought that in this specific instance, there was an interesting comparison to be made.
But really, I was just in this thread to find out if there was any news on whether players would be attending OSL/GSL, so I will humbly back out of this discussion, especially after you have so masterfully struck down my original argument.
lol, no argument here bro! We both were right in our discussion so there is no win/lose in this case. But at the moment, it does not look like GOM players will be attending the OSL and Kespa players will not be attending the GSL. Which in my opinion is going to hurt GOM and ESF while Kespa will be unphased. I touched base on my opinion on page 648 if you are interested in knowning.
Until Kespa shows some actual openness and leniency don't give them anything. Not allowing their players to participate in GSL means they want to shut the door on GOMTV period like they did in SC1, I'm glad the players aren't putting up with this shit and are forcing Kespa to change their attitude.
On August 26 2012 03:05 attackmoveftw wrote: Did you see the audience for today's WCS finals? It was in a small studio that could only fit a few seats and almost half of them were foreigners. The previous GSL finals were a big embarrassment for GOM because they prepared a huge event but hardly anyone showed up. Apparently, GSL5 will be in Las Vegas or something. All the BW fans are long gone and only a few stragglers are left at PlayXP and Fomos. During the final-final sets of Squirtle vs Creator, the major topic of discussion at PlayXP was whether height is genetic or environmental. lol
SC2 is dead in Korea already.
That's quite a reach. Proof?
I presume you can read Korean?
Goto playxp and read the posts that correspond to when the finals were on. Here
Goto thisisgame and read how many posts are about SC2. Today was WCS finals right? Almost none.
Go rewatch today's finals when the camera pans across the audience.
Link us to a more recent event. 2002 really? In 2002, StarCraft was not as popular as it is now in Korea today.
Lol wrong. 2002 is way closer to prime than any other relevant example.
However, Im pretty sure you'd see some similiarities between NATE and whichever OSL it was that Casy won vs Chojja (also, coincidentally, occured during a World Cup and nobody fucking remembers that final).
On August 26 2012 09:04 ElephantBaby wrote: Is ESF 5?
Oh, my bad, he is just a baby.
Is this poster 5?
Oh, my bad, he is just a baby. I'm sorry Mr. BW elitist but Kespa is NOT in the right in this situation. They don't have a massive schedule, and everyone knows it, they have ONE tournament to prepare for(they can't prep for OSL if their original opponent suddenly disappears) and no reason to back out of GSL, AND MLG, after the deal that went on before which attempted to build trust between ESF and Kespa.
The scheduling excuse was a cover-up planned conveniently so that they could have the GSL players with them, but not share likewise. I am very confident the schedule for the ESF players is just as stacked as Kespa's if not more, with WCS Korea for a few, MLG this weekend, MvP and a bunch of players were at IEM last weekend.
oh the elitist stuff again? and the defending stuff? ever thought about there is no 1 wrong guy and 1 right guy? mb both are fucking wrong and act like little kids who got their lolli stolen?
and you still have 2 practice for the tournaments. it's not "on day 1 i play OSL on day 2 i play WCS on day 3 i play PL on day4 i play WCG on day 5 i play MLG on day 6 i play whatever the fuck is left.
oh and get your infos straight. cause if you would you would realize that the PL games are going on right now. and they are fucking important because they are for the playoffs. so fuck yes they wont fly over 2 MLG.
god this shit thread drama with people just talking bullshit can make someone mad.
... but then, you did pretty directly answer my question, so it's really my fault. Well done.
Your counter argument probably would have been that Jangbi vs Fantasy 2012 was the final OSL for Brood War therefore it would naturally have a vast crowd.
Yes, and that both Nate OSL and Monsieur J also had the added problem of unfortunate finals (Nate's favourites having lost early on, and Monsieur J being PvP) but that would set me up defending a position I really have no interest in defending, as other GSL finals (except maybe the very first) have not had attendance comparable to any OSLs I have ever watched either. So I already know that in the overall argument, I would have been on the losing side, it would be absurd for me to try arguing further. I just thought that in this specific instance, there was an interesting comparison to be made.
But really, I was just in this thread to find out if there was any news on whether players would be attending OSL/GSL, so I will humbly back out of this discussion, especially after you have so masterfully struck down my original argument.
lol, no argument here bro! We both were right in our discussion so there is no win/lose in this case. But at the moment, it does not look like GOM players will be attending the OSL and Kespa players will not be attending the GSL. Which in my opinion is going to hurt GOM and ESF while Kespa will be unphased. I touched base on my opinion on page 648 if you are interested in knowning.
Blizzard has the final word in the matter.
You never know. Maybe Blizzard will take back broadcasting rights, KeSPA will be pissed and go back to broadcasting BW, and then the frustrating BW and SC2 arguments will end as people just start ignoring each other.
On August 26 2012 07:38 ArvickHero wrote: KeSPA can always give the finger to eSF and say fuck you, we're doing a mass switch to LoL. Then the Korean SC2 scene will stagnate and see more finals like this.
Yeah, because ZvZ in BW finals was so much successful, right?
I'm done talking with you people, you're being willfully ignorant at this point, just like last time.
If you think Korea has any say in the future of esports your mistaken. Yes korea currently has corporations involved and has done for a while but the euro and NA scenes havent even scratched the surface in the potential in the markets they reside in. The korean market in the future will be nothing compared to the chinese NA and Euro markets and by definition progamers follow the money.
Time will tell. Why people always tell that the korean market will be irrelevant in the future. Now the korean E-SPort scene is the best, produces the best players, there is really no doubt about that.
The volume. 50m s.Korea, vs 400m NA+Australia+NZ+ ~700mil EU and former SU countries, +1g China, +~1g India.
S.Korea will not become irrevelant, it will just decrease in importance, to maybe the level they are in current Olympics or something like that.
5th in overall medal standings?
9% of gold medals of the top 5 contries(olympics), as opposed to basically having >80% of best players(SC2)? I`s say that is a big decrease in importance.
thats also not mentioning how much more medals the other countries get (in particular china/us/russia) since its loads more overall.
EPT
