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On August 26 2012 14:35 bucckevin wrote:
Kespa should stick to their decision and see if ESF players really pull out of OGN. If they do, OGN they should ban those players from participating in any future OGN events. Kespa should then do exactly what ESF did to OGN..... have their players play in GSL5 and if one of them makes it far, especially something like the finals, that player should just not show up. That would be hilarious and a big FU to GOM and ESF.
Yeah, because that's really great for the players and fans.
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On August 26 2012 14:37 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 14:04 naastyOne wrote:On August 26 2012 11:02 ShiroKaisen wrote:On August 26 2012 10:18 naastyOne wrote:On August 25 2012 18:46 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 18:37 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." I think that their goal is to carry Korean E-Sports a step forward globally, and they feel that GOM and all of the foreign tourneys have done this. KeSPA has made a lot of claims about wanting to open up, but everyone, even the players, are skeptical of that, with good reason to be. They are fighting not just for GOM, but for the KeSPA players, the foreign players, and the fans globally I think. Most of the fans support GOM and what they have done for the community, that includes the SC2 pro players it appears. This is just short sighted us vs them mentality. Consider what the scene has to lose by this. If the first OS2L ends up bombing because of this there's pretty much zero chance of the BW fanbase transitioning to SC2. If kespa can't transition then SC2 loses out on a massive amount of money and infrastructure. Dropping out doesn't benefit the fans or the players. I do not get it, how exactly are the BW fanbase and KeSPA transition related. The BW fanbase will need to become SC2 fanbase to be revelant, with or without KeSPA. The BW fanbase is not bolted to KeSPA. They can remain BW fanbase, or become SC2 fanbase or become neither. It is not about OSL, it is about people choices. On August 25 2012 18:46 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 18:40 Otak wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." Are you kidding? GomTv has been showing Starcraft 2 since 2010 and has done a very good job doing so. Kespa has recently started sc2 and now wants the monopoly on having ALL the big name players in one tournament. If you're too blinded to see that Kespa is just deliberately trying to shut GomTv out so that they become irrelevant again then I don't know what to say to you. And to be quite honest, I think in everyones mind, GSL is the premier sc2 tournament at the moment, not the Kespa league. And so what if GOM does end up becoming irrelevant? Did you ever stop to consider that SC2 might be better off under kespa? They bring far more to the table in terms of resources and potential for growth. This is nothing more then petty factionalism. In case you do not know, foreign SC2 scene has bigger(finantial) resourses than Korean scene anyway. I`m not sure how much the Korean scene is currently financed by money that foreigners bring in various ways(vievers for streams, sponsors, foreign events attendance), but i wouldn`t hesitate to call it very significant, if not major money source. KeSpa at this point is irrelevant. On August 26 2012 10:15 Severedevil wrote:On August 26 2012 10:05 ShatterZer0 wrote:
I don't understand why people seem to think KESPA is right on this...
They are being unreasonable in protecting their brand and should be willing to step onto an even playing field. Kespa players are still competing in Broodwar. It's not an even playing field. If I understand correctly, by GSL5 they'll have fully transitioned, but ESF are insisting they play GSL before then. If that would be the case, they wouldn`t play WCS, no? Maybe, they wouln`t even play SC2 OSL2, before full transitioning? Oh, wait, they actually do. a) The Korean fanbase may not be tied to keSPA, but they ARE tied to OGN. Without OGN, because MBC Game doesn't exist anymore, the vast majority of the Korean fanbase doesn't watch games. They watch Starcraft on TV, not on their computer. GOM only broadcasts on online streams. b) KeSPA absolutely has more money and resources than the foreign scene. They broadcast on television every week, unlimited broadcast time, put on the biggest events with the biggest crowds, and never charge a dime to watch content or attend live events. They have the biggest sponsors and their players make the most money outside of EG, and the stars make more than twice what even an EG player makes. c) They played in WCS because it was a Blizzard-sponsored event that was happening RIGHT THEN. Blizzard was a part of the eSports Vision conference, and participation in the WCS was probably a part of KESPA's contract to get broadcasting rights to SC2. Please keep facts in mind before spouting stuff. a. How did you figured? they should in fact have computers. b. Wrong. The TV vs internet is meaningless. Just look at SC2 scene Sponsors. Intel, AMD, LG, Red Bull, and a crapload of smaller sponsors. KeSpa sposor that can match that, is basically Samsung, and nothing more. Foreign scene has more vievers overall. You just need to add up all the streams with different languages. The Crowds, again are more about the scene being compact, and lokated in fan-dence Korea as opposed to spread out. The SC2 foreign scene has more teams than KeSPA, the wage of non-star players is better. Not to mention the number of SC2 events. MLG, IPL, Dreamhak, IEM, NASL, Homestory cup, WCS, many of which happen multiple times in one year, and I`m only counting the events that have at least comparable prise for winner (>10k). c. It is irrelevant they participated in SC2 tournament, so they were ready to participate in big SC2 events. Please, keep your fanboism out, and get the facts straight before posting. wat KT and SKT are like verizon or at&t in korea. CJ is like coca cola, if coke had their fingers in every single entertainment industry. i don't think you can compare any sc2 sponsor to kespa team sponsors
However big KT, SKT and CJ are, I have a hard time imagining that they, as national powerhouse companies, are bigger than international giants like Red Bull, Coca-Cola, LG and Intel.
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On August 26 2012 14:41 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 14:37 rauk wrote:On August 26 2012 14:04 naastyOne wrote:On August 26 2012 11:02 ShiroKaisen wrote:On August 26 2012 10:18 naastyOne wrote:On August 25 2012 18:46 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 18:37 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." I think that their goal is to carry Korean E-Sports a step forward globally, and they feel that GOM and all of the foreign tourneys have done this. KeSPA has made a lot of claims about wanting to open up, but everyone, even the players, are skeptical of that, with good reason to be. They are fighting not just for GOM, but for the KeSPA players, the foreign players, and the fans globally I think. Most of the fans support GOM and what they have done for the community, that includes the SC2 pro players it appears. This is just short sighted us vs them mentality. Consider what the scene has to lose by this. If the first OS2L ends up bombing because of this there's pretty much zero chance of the BW fanbase transitioning to SC2. If kespa can't transition then SC2 loses out on a massive amount of money and infrastructure. Dropping out doesn't benefit the fans or the players. I do not get it, how exactly are the BW fanbase and KeSPA transition related. The BW fanbase will need to become SC2 fanbase to be revelant, with or without KeSPA. The BW fanbase is not bolted to KeSPA. They can remain BW fanbase, or become SC2 fanbase or become neither. It is not about OSL, it is about people choices. On August 25 2012 18:46 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 18:40 Otak wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." Are you kidding? GomTv has been showing Starcraft 2 since 2010 and has done a very good job doing so. Kespa has recently started sc2 and now wants the monopoly on having ALL the big name players in one tournament. If you're too blinded to see that Kespa is just deliberately trying to shut GomTv out so that they become irrelevant again then I don't know what to say to you. And to be quite honest, I think in everyones mind, GSL is the premier sc2 tournament at the moment, not the Kespa league. And so what if GOM does end up becoming irrelevant? Did you ever stop to consider that SC2 might be better off under kespa? They bring far more to the table in terms of resources and potential for growth. This is nothing more then petty factionalism. In case you do not know, foreign SC2 scene has bigger(finantial) resourses than Korean scene anyway. I`m not sure how much the Korean scene is currently financed by money that foreigners bring in various ways(vievers for streams, sponsors, foreign events attendance), but i wouldn`t hesitate to call it very significant, if not major money source. KeSpa at this point is irrelevant. On August 26 2012 10:15 Severedevil wrote:On August 26 2012 10:05 ShatterZer0 wrote:
I don't understand why people seem to think KESPA is right on this...
They are being unreasonable in protecting their brand and should be willing to step onto an even playing field. Kespa players are still competing in Broodwar. It's not an even playing field. If I understand correctly, by GSL5 they'll have fully transitioned, but ESF are insisting they play GSL before then. If that would be the case, they wouldn`t play WCS, no? Maybe, they wouln`t even play SC2 OSL2, before full transitioning? Oh, wait, they actually do. a) The Korean fanbase may not be tied to keSPA, but they ARE tied to OGN. Without OGN, because MBC Game doesn't exist anymore, the vast majority of the Korean fanbase doesn't watch games. They watch Starcraft on TV, not on their computer. GOM only broadcasts on online streams. b) KeSPA absolutely has more money and resources than the foreign scene. They broadcast on television every week, unlimited broadcast time, put on the biggest events with the biggest crowds, and never charge a dime to watch content or attend live events. They have the biggest sponsors and their players make the most money outside of EG, and the stars make more than twice what even an EG player makes. c) They played in WCS because it was a Blizzard-sponsored event that was happening RIGHT THEN. Blizzard was a part of the eSports Vision conference, and participation in the WCS was probably a part of KESPA's contract to get broadcasting rights to SC2. Please keep facts in mind before spouting stuff. a. How did you figured? they should in fact have computers. b. Wrong. The TV vs internet is meaningless. Just look at SC2 scene Sponsors. Intel, AMD, LG, Red Bull, and a crapload of smaller sponsors. KeSpa sposor that can match that, is basically Samsung, and nothing more. Foreign scene has more vievers overall. You just need to add up all the streams with different languages. The Crowds, again are more about the scene being compact, and lokated in fan-dence Korea as opposed to spread out. The SC2 foreign scene has more teams than KeSPA, the wage of non-star players is better. Not to mention the number of SC2 events. MLG, IPL, Dreamhak, IEM, NASL, Homestory cup, WCS, many of which happen multiple times in one year, and I`m only counting the events that have at least comparable prise for winner (>10k). c. It is irrelevant they participated in SC2 tournament, so they were ready to participate in big SC2 events. Please, keep your fanboism out, and get the facts straight before posting. wat KT and SKT are like verizon or at&t in korea. CJ is like coca cola, if coke had their fingers in every single entertainment industry. i don't think you can compare any sc2 sponsor to kespa team sponsors However big KT, SKT and CJ are, I have a hard time imagining that they, as national powerhouse companies, are bigger than international giants like Red Bull, Coca-Cola, LG and Intel.
LG is the same as samsung... plus intel and redbull aren't actually paying the salaries of a full a-team. spendling like maybe 30-40k a year to run an event isn't remotely the same thing as paying 30k a year for 10 a-teamers, per a-teamer, plus rent and food expenses, plus bonuses, plus the cost of hiring managers and coaches.
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On August 26 2012 14:41 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 14:37 rauk wrote:On August 26 2012 14:04 naastyOne wrote:On August 26 2012 11:02 ShiroKaisen wrote:On August 26 2012 10:18 naastyOne wrote:On August 25 2012 18:46 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 18:37 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." I think that their goal is to carry Korean E-Sports a step forward globally, and they feel that GOM and all of the foreign tourneys have done this. KeSPA has made a lot of claims about wanting to open up, but everyone, even the players, are skeptical of that, with good reason to be. They are fighting not just for GOM, but for the KeSPA players, the foreign players, and the fans globally I think. Most of the fans support GOM and what they have done for the community, that includes the SC2 pro players it appears. This is just short sighted us vs them mentality. Consider what the scene has to lose by this. If the first OS2L ends up bombing because of this there's pretty much zero chance of the BW fanbase transitioning to SC2. If kespa can't transition then SC2 loses out on a massive amount of money and infrastructure. Dropping out doesn't benefit the fans or the players. I do not get it, how exactly are the BW fanbase and KeSPA transition related. The BW fanbase will need to become SC2 fanbase to be revelant, with or without KeSPA. The BW fanbase is not bolted to KeSPA. They can remain BW fanbase, or become SC2 fanbase or become neither. It is not about OSL, it is about people choices. On August 25 2012 18:46 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 18:40 Otak wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." Are you kidding? GomTv has been showing Starcraft 2 since 2010 and has done a very good job doing so. Kespa has recently started sc2 and now wants the monopoly on having ALL the big name players in one tournament. If you're too blinded to see that Kespa is just deliberately trying to shut GomTv out so that they become irrelevant again then I don't know what to say to you. And to be quite honest, I think in everyones mind, GSL is the premier sc2 tournament at the moment, not the Kespa league. And so what if GOM does end up becoming irrelevant? Did you ever stop to consider that SC2 might be better off under kespa? They bring far more to the table in terms of resources and potential for growth. This is nothing more then petty factionalism. In case you do not know, foreign SC2 scene has bigger(finantial) resourses than Korean scene anyway. I`m not sure how much the Korean scene is currently financed by money that foreigners bring in various ways(vievers for streams, sponsors, foreign events attendance), but i wouldn`t hesitate to call it very significant, if not major money source. KeSpa at this point is irrelevant. On August 26 2012 10:15 Severedevil wrote:On August 26 2012 10:05 ShatterZer0 wrote:
I don't understand why people seem to think KESPA is right on this...
They are being unreasonable in protecting their brand and should be willing to step onto an even playing field. Kespa players are still competing in Broodwar. It's not an even playing field. If I understand correctly, by GSL5 they'll have fully transitioned, but ESF are insisting they play GSL before then. If that would be the case, they wouldn`t play WCS, no? Maybe, they wouln`t even play SC2 OSL2, before full transitioning? Oh, wait, they actually do. a) The Korean fanbase may not be tied to keSPA, but they ARE tied to OGN. Without OGN, because MBC Game doesn't exist anymore, the vast majority of the Korean fanbase doesn't watch games. They watch Starcraft on TV, not on their computer. GOM only broadcasts on online streams. b) KeSPA absolutely has more money and resources than the foreign scene. They broadcast on television every week, unlimited broadcast time, put on the biggest events with the biggest crowds, and never charge a dime to watch content or attend live events. They have the biggest sponsors and their players make the most money outside of EG, and the stars make more than twice what even an EG player makes. c) They played in WCS because it was a Blizzard-sponsored event that was happening RIGHT THEN. Blizzard was a part of the eSports Vision conference, and participation in the WCS was probably a part of KESPA's contract to get broadcasting rights to SC2. Please keep facts in mind before spouting stuff. a. How did you figured? they should in fact have computers. b. Wrong. The TV vs internet is meaningless. Just look at SC2 scene Sponsors. Intel, AMD, LG, Red Bull, and a crapload of smaller sponsors. KeSpa sposor that can match that, is basically Samsung, and nothing more. Foreign scene has more vievers overall. You just need to add up all the streams with different languages. The Crowds, again are more about the scene being compact, and lokated in fan-dence Korea as opposed to spread out. The SC2 foreign scene has more teams than KeSPA, the wage of non-star players is better. Not to mention the number of SC2 events. MLG, IPL, Dreamhak, IEM, NASL, Homestory cup, WCS, many of which happen multiple times in one year, and I`m only counting the events that have at least comparable prise for winner (>10k). c. It is irrelevant they participated in SC2 tournament, so they were ready to participate in big SC2 events. Please, keep your fanboism out, and get the facts straight before posting. wat KT and SKT are like verizon or at&t in korea. CJ is like coca cola, if coke had their fingers in every single entertainment industry. i don't think you can compare any sc2 sponsor to kespa team sponsors However big KT, SKT and CJ are, I have a hard time imagining that they, as national powerhouse companies, are bigger than international giants like Red Bull, Coca-Cola, LG and Intel.
STX is every where in the world managing logistics and shipping .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STX_Corporation
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On August 26 2012 14:41 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 14:37 rauk wrote:On August 26 2012 14:04 naastyOne wrote:On August 26 2012 11:02 ShiroKaisen wrote:On August 26 2012 10:18 naastyOne wrote:On August 25 2012 18:46 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 18:37 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." I think that their goal is to carry Korean E-Sports a step forward globally, and they feel that GOM and all of the foreign tourneys have done this. KeSPA has made a lot of claims about wanting to open up, but everyone, even the players, are skeptical of that, with good reason to be. They are fighting not just for GOM, but for the KeSPA players, the foreign players, and the fans globally I think. Most of the fans support GOM and what they have done for the community, that includes the SC2 pro players it appears. This is just short sighted us vs them mentality. Consider what the scene has to lose by this. If the first OS2L ends up bombing because of this there's pretty much zero chance of the BW fanbase transitioning to SC2. If kespa can't transition then SC2 loses out on a massive amount of money and infrastructure. Dropping out doesn't benefit the fans or the players. I do not get it, how exactly are the BW fanbase and KeSPA transition related. The BW fanbase will need to become SC2 fanbase to be revelant, with or without KeSPA. The BW fanbase is not bolted to KeSPA. They can remain BW fanbase, or become SC2 fanbase or become neither. It is not about OSL, it is about people choices. On August 25 2012 18:46 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 18:40 Otak wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." Are you kidding? GomTv has been showing Starcraft 2 since 2010 and has done a very good job doing so. Kespa has recently started sc2 and now wants the monopoly on having ALL the big name players in one tournament. If you're too blinded to see that Kespa is just deliberately trying to shut GomTv out so that they become irrelevant again then I don't know what to say to you. And to be quite honest, I think in everyones mind, GSL is the premier sc2 tournament at the moment, not the Kespa league. And so what if GOM does end up becoming irrelevant? Did you ever stop to consider that SC2 might be better off under kespa? They bring far more to the table in terms of resources and potential for growth. This is nothing more then petty factionalism. In case you do not know, foreign SC2 scene has bigger(finantial) resourses than Korean scene anyway. I`m not sure how much the Korean scene is currently financed by money that foreigners bring in various ways(vievers for streams, sponsors, foreign events attendance), but i wouldn`t hesitate to call it very significant, if not major money source. KeSpa at this point is irrelevant. On August 26 2012 10:15 Severedevil wrote:On August 26 2012 10:05 ShatterZer0 wrote:
I don't understand why people seem to think KESPA is right on this...
They are being unreasonable in protecting their brand and should be willing to step onto an even playing field. Kespa players are still competing in Broodwar. It's not an even playing field. If I understand correctly, by GSL5 they'll have fully transitioned, but ESF are insisting they play GSL before then. If that would be the case, they wouldn`t play WCS, no? Maybe, they wouln`t even play SC2 OSL2, before full transitioning? Oh, wait, they actually do. a) The Korean fanbase may not be tied to keSPA, but they ARE tied to OGN. Without OGN, because MBC Game doesn't exist anymore, the vast majority of the Korean fanbase doesn't watch games. They watch Starcraft on TV, not on their computer. GOM only broadcasts on online streams. b) KeSPA absolutely has more money and resources than the foreign scene. They broadcast on television every week, unlimited broadcast time, put on the biggest events with the biggest crowds, and never charge a dime to watch content or attend live events. They have the biggest sponsors and their players make the most money outside of EG, and the stars make more than twice what even an EG player makes. c) They played in WCS because it was a Blizzard-sponsored event that was happening RIGHT THEN. Blizzard was a part of the eSports Vision conference, and participation in the WCS was probably a part of KESPA's contract to get broadcasting rights to SC2. Please keep facts in mind before spouting stuff. a. How did you figured? they should in fact have computers. b. Wrong. The TV vs internet is meaningless. Just look at SC2 scene Sponsors. Intel, AMD, LG, Red Bull, and a crapload of smaller sponsors. KeSpa sposor that can match that, is basically Samsung, and nothing more. Foreign scene has more vievers overall. You just need to add up all the streams with different languages. The Crowds, again are more about the scene being compact, and lokated in fan-dence Korea as opposed to spread out. The SC2 foreign scene has more teams than KeSPA, the wage of non-star players is better. Not to mention the number of SC2 events. MLG, IPL, Dreamhak, IEM, NASL, Homestory cup, WCS, many of which happen multiple times in one year, and I`m only counting the events that have at least comparable prise for winner (>10k). c. It is irrelevant they participated in SC2 tournament, so they were ready to participate in big SC2 events. Please, keep your fanboism out, and get the facts straight before posting. wat KT and SKT are like verizon or at&t in korea. CJ is like coca cola, if coke had their fingers in every single entertainment industry. i don't think you can compare any sc2 sponsor to kespa team sponsors However big KT, SKT and CJ are, I have a hard time imagining that they, as national powerhouse companies, are bigger than international giants like Red Bull, Coca-Cola, LG and Intel.
yes mb they are not as big.
but they fuckign own the team THEY OWN IT. they spend millions on that team. and not like razer or steelseries intel amd with 99% of time just give them hardware and shit.
you can have bill gates sponsor you but if he just gives u 1 windows CD for free. the sponsor isnt so fucking huge.
i doubt Red Bull , LG give millions to IM and ST.
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Red Bull just gave ST enough money to basically buy out another team and move into a teamhouse twice the size of their old one. That's pretty significant, I'd say. And I can't imagine the players they got, especially Line and Life, were cheap, coming off the awesome GSTL performances they were having at the time.
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On August 26 2012 14:45 rasers wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 14:41 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On August 26 2012 14:37 rauk wrote:On August 26 2012 14:04 naastyOne wrote:On August 26 2012 11:02 ShiroKaisen wrote:On August 26 2012 10:18 naastyOne wrote:On August 25 2012 18:46 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 18:37 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." I think that their goal is to carry Korean E-Sports a step forward globally, and they feel that GOM and all of the foreign tourneys have done this. KeSPA has made a lot of claims about wanting to open up, but everyone, even the players, are skeptical of that, with good reason to be. They are fighting not just for GOM, but for the KeSPA players, the foreign players, and the fans globally I think. Most of the fans support GOM and what they have done for the community, that includes the SC2 pro players it appears. This is just short sighted us vs them mentality. Consider what the scene has to lose by this. If the first OS2L ends up bombing because of this there's pretty much zero chance of the BW fanbase transitioning to SC2. If kespa can't transition then SC2 loses out on a massive amount of money and infrastructure. Dropping out doesn't benefit the fans or the players. I do not get it, how exactly are the BW fanbase and KeSPA transition related. The BW fanbase will need to become SC2 fanbase to be revelant, with or without KeSPA. The BW fanbase is not bolted to KeSPA. They can remain BW fanbase, or become SC2 fanbase or become neither. It is not about OSL, it is about people choices. On August 25 2012 18:46 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 18:40 Otak wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." Are you kidding? GomTv has been showing Starcraft 2 since 2010 and has done a very good job doing so. Kespa has recently started sc2 and now wants the monopoly on having ALL the big name players in one tournament. If you're too blinded to see that Kespa is just deliberately trying to shut GomTv out so that they become irrelevant again then I don't know what to say to you. And to be quite honest, I think in everyones mind, GSL is the premier sc2 tournament at the moment, not the Kespa league. And so what if GOM does end up becoming irrelevant? Did you ever stop to consider that SC2 might be better off under kespa? They bring far more to the table in terms of resources and potential for growth. This is nothing more then petty factionalism. In case you do not know, foreign SC2 scene has bigger(finantial) resourses than Korean scene anyway. I`m not sure how much the Korean scene is currently financed by money that foreigners bring in various ways(vievers for streams, sponsors, foreign events attendance), but i wouldn`t hesitate to call it very significant, if not major money source. KeSpa at this point is irrelevant. On August 26 2012 10:15 Severedevil wrote:On August 26 2012 10:05 ShatterZer0 wrote:
I don't understand why people seem to think KESPA is right on this...
They are being unreasonable in protecting their brand and should be willing to step onto an even playing field. Kespa players are still competing in Broodwar. It's not an even playing field. If I understand correctly, by GSL5 they'll have fully transitioned, but ESF are insisting they play GSL before then. If that would be the case, they wouldn`t play WCS, no? Maybe, they wouln`t even play SC2 OSL2, before full transitioning? Oh, wait, they actually do. a) The Korean fanbase may not be tied to keSPA, but they ARE tied to OGN. Without OGN, because MBC Game doesn't exist anymore, the vast majority of the Korean fanbase doesn't watch games. They watch Starcraft on TV, not on their computer. GOM only broadcasts on online streams. b) KeSPA absolutely has more money and resources than the foreign scene. They broadcast on television every week, unlimited broadcast time, put on the biggest events with the biggest crowds, and never charge a dime to watch content or attend live events. They have the biggest sponsors and their players make the most money outside of EG, and the stars make more than twice what even an EG player makes. c) They played in WCS because it was a Blizzard-sponsored event that was happening RIGHT THEN. Blizzard was a part of the eSports Vision conference, and participation in the WCS was probably a part of KESPA's contract to get broadcasting rights to SC2. Please keep facts in mind before spouting stuff. a. How did you figured? they should in fact have computers. b. Wrong. The TV vs internet is meaningless. Just look at SC2 scene Sponsors. Intel, AMD, LG, Red Bull, and a crapload of smaller sponsors. KeSpa sposor that can match that, is basically Samsung, and nothing more. Foreign scene has more vievers overall. You just need to add up all the streams with different languages. The Crowds, again are more about the scene being compact, and lokated in fan-dence Korea as opposed to spread out. The SC2 foreign scene has more teams than KeSPA, the wage of non-star players is better. Not to mention the number of SC2 events. MLG, IPL, Dreamhak, IEM, NASL, Homestory cup, WCS, many of which happen multiple times in one year, and I`m only counting the events that have at least comparable prise for winner (>10k). c. It is irrelevant they participated in SC2 tournament, so they were ready to participate in big SC2 events. Please, keep your fanboism out, and get the facts straight before posting. wat KT and SKT are like verizon or at&t in korea. CJ is like coca cola, if coke had their fingers in every single entertainment industry. i don't think you can compare any sc2 sponsor to kespa team sponsors However big KT, SKT and CJ are, I have a hard time imagining that they, as national powerhouse companies, are bigger than international giants like Red Bull, Coca-Cola, LG and Intel. yes mb they are not as big. but they fuckign own the team THEY OWN IT. they spend millions on that team. and not like razer or steelseries intel amd with 99% of time just give them hardware and shit. you can have bill gates sponsor you but if he just gives u 1 windows CD for free. the sponsor isnt so fucking huge. i doubt Red Bull , LG give millions to IM and ST.
wasn't aware that redbull sponsored ST. even so i doubt it's anything more than a pallet of redbull every month, or Redbull might as well actually buy the team out.
On August 26 2012 14:47 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
Red Bull just gave ST enough money to basically buy out another team and move into a teamhouse twice the size of their old one. That's pretty significant, I'd say. And I can't imagine the players they got, especially Line and Life, were cheap, coming off the awesome GSTL performances they were having at the time.
considering TSL was the only team that paid any salaries at all for 2 years i doubt life or line cost ST a cent.
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On August 26 2012 14:47 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
Red Bull just gave ST enough money to basically buy out another team and move into a teamhouse twice the size of their old one. That's pretty significant, I'd say. And I can't imagine the players they got, especially Line and Life, were cheap, coming off the awesome GSTL performances they were having at the time.
Remember though, the salaries for eSF players have been shown time and again to be extremely low. The demand of $1500 a month, or 18k a year, was "too much" when Fnatic was trying to recruit...uh, Sleep wasn't it? That's not a lot, and that was a wage that was supposed to draw him to switch teams.
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The amount of support companies like KT and SKT give their teams is WAY more than Red Bull and Razor or whoever give the Starcraft 2 teams. Single players have six figure salaries.
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On August 26 2012 14:45 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 14:41 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On August 26 2012 14:37 rauk wrote:On August 26 2012 14:04 naastyOne wrote:On August 26 2012 11:02 ShiroKaisen wrote:On August 26 2012 10:18 naastyOne wrote:On August 25 2012 18:46 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 18:37 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." I think that their goal is to carry Korean E-Sports a step forward globally, and they feel that GOM and all of the foreign tourneys have done this. KeSPA has made a lot of claims about wanting to open up, but everyone, even the players, are skeptical of that, with good reason to be. They are fighting not just for GOM, but for the KeSPA players, the foreign players, and the fans globally I think. Most of the fans support GOM and what they have done for the community, that includes the SC2 pro players it appears. This is just short sighted us vs them mentality. Consider what the scene has to lose by this. If the first OS2L ends up bombing because of this there's pretty much zero chance of the BW fanbase transitioning to SC2. If kespa can't transition then SC2 loses out on a massive amount of money and infrastructure. Dropping out doesn't benefit the fans or the players. I do not get it, how exactly are the BW fanbase and KeSPA transition related. The BW fanbase will need to become SC2 fanbase to be revelant, with or without KeSPA. The BW fanbase is not bolted to KeSPA. They can remain BW fanbase, or become SC2 fanbase or become neither. It is not about OSL, it is about people choices. On August 25 2012 18:46 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 18:40 Otak wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." Are you kidding? GomTv has been showing Starcraft 2 since 2010 and has done a very good job doing so. Kespa has recently started sc2 and now wants the monopoly on having ALL the big name players in one tournament. If you're too blinded to see that Kespa is just deliberately trying to shut GomTv out so that they become irrelevant again then I don't know what to say to you. And to be quite honest, I think in everyones mind, GSL is the premier sc2 tournament at the moment, not the Kespa league. And so what if GOM does end up becoming irrelevant? Did you ever stop to consider that SC2 might be better off under kespa? They bring far more to the table in terms of resources and potential for growth. This is nothing more then petty factionalism. In case you do not know, foreign SC2 scene has bigger(finantial) resourses than Korean scene anyway. I`m not sure how much the Korean scene is currently financed by money that foreigners bring in various ways(vievers for streams, sponsors, foreign events attendance), but i wouldn`t hesitate to call it very significant, if not major money source. KeSpa at this point is irrelevant. On August 26 2012 10:15 Severedevil wrote:On August 26 2012 10:05 ShatterZer0 wrote:
I don't understand why people seem to think KESPA is right on this...
They are being unreasonable in protecting their brand and should be willing to step onto an even playing field. Kespa players are still competing in Broodwar. It's not an even playing field. If I understand correctly, by GSL5 they'll have fully transitioned, but ESF are insisting they play GSL before then. If that would be the case, they wouldn`t play WCS, no? Maybe, they wouln`t even play SC2 OSL2, before full transitioning? Oh, wait, they actually do. a) The Korean fanbase may not be tied to keSPA, but they ARE tied to OGN. Without OGN, because MBC Game doesn't exist anymore, the vast majority of the Korean fanbase doesn't watch games. They watch Starcraft on TV, not on their computer. GOM only broadcasts on online streams. b) KeSPA absolutely has more money and resources than the foreign scene. They broadcast on television every week, unlimited broadcast time, put on the biggest events with the biggest crowds, and never charge a dime to watch content or attend live events. They have the biggest sponsors and their players make the most money outside of EG, and the stars make more than twice what even an EG player makes. c) They played in WCS because it was a Blizzard-sponsored event that was happening RIGHT THEN. Blizzard was a part of the eSports Vision conference, and participation in the WCS was probably a part of KESPA's contract to get broadcasting rights to SC2. Please keep facts in mind before spouting stuff. a. How did you figured? they should in fact have computers. b. Wrong. The TV vs internet is meaningless. Just look at SC2 scene Sponsors. Intel, AMD, LG, Red Bull, and a crapload of smaller sponsors. KeSpa sposor that can match that, is basically Samsung, and nothing more. Foreign scene has more vievers overall. You just need to add up all the streams with different languages. The Crowds, again are more about the scene being compact, and lokated in fan-dence Korea as opposed to spread out. The SC2 foreign scene has more teams than KeSPA, the wage of non-star players is better. Not to mention the number of SC2 events. MLG, IPL, Dreamhak, IEM, NASL, Homestory cup, WCS, many of which happen multiple times in one year, and I`m only counting the events that have at least comparable prise for winner (>10k). c. It is irrelevant they participated in SC2 tournament, so they were ready to participate in big SC2 events. Please, keep your fanboism out, and get the facts straight before posting. wat KT and SKT are like verizon or at&t in korea. CJ is like coca cola, if coke had their fingers in every single entertainment industry. i don't think you can compare any sc2 sponsor to kespa team sponsors However big KT, SKT and CJ are, I have a hard time imagining that they, as national powerhouse companies, are bigger than international giants like Red Bull, Coca-Cola, LG and Intel. STX is every where in the world managing logistics and shipping . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STX_Corporation
True, it's a pretty big company. Intel's average annual revenue is double the total assets of STX, and Intel's total asset value is more than triple. LG is a touch under three times as large by total asset value.
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On August 26 2012 14:48 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 14:45 rasers wrote:On August 26 2012 14:41 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On August 26 2012 14:37 rauk wrote:On August 26 2012 14:04 naastyOne wrote:On August 26 2012 11:02 ShiroKaisen wrote:On August 26 2012 10:18 naastyOne wrote:On August 25 2012 18:46 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 18:37 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." I think that their goal is to carry Korean E-Sports a step forward globally, and they feel that GOM and all of the foreign tourneys have done this. KeSPA has made a lot of claims about wanting to open up, but everyone, even the players, are skeptical of that, with good reason to be. They are fighting not just for GOM, but for the KeSPA players, the foreign players, and the fans globally I think. Most of the fans support GOM and what they have done for the community, that includes the SC2 pro players it appears. This is just short sighted us vs them mentality. Consider what the scene has to lose by this. If the first OS2L ends up bombing because of this there's pretty much zero chance of the BW fanbase transitioning to SC2. If kespa can't transition then SC2 loses out on a massive amount of money and infrastructure. Dropping out doesn't benefit the fans or the players. I do not get it, how exactly are the BW fanbase and KeSPA transition related. The BW fanbase will need to become SC2 fanbase to be revelant, with or without KeSPA. The BW fanbase is not bolted to KeSPA. They can remain BW fanbase, or become SC2 fanbase or become neither. It is not about OSL, it is about people choices. On August 25 2012 18:46 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 18:40 Otak wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." Are you kidding? GomTv has been showing Starcraft 2 since 2010 and has done a very good job doing so. Kespa has recently started sc2 and now wants the monopoly on having ALL the big name players in one tournament. If you're too blinded to see that Kespa is just deliberately trying to shut GomTv out so that they become irrelevant again then I don't know what to say to you. And to be quite honest, I think in everyones mind, GSL is the premier sc2 tournament at the moment, not the Kespa league. And so what if GOM does end up becoming irrelevant? Did you ever stop to consider that SC2 might be better off under kespa? They bring far more to the table in terms of resources and potential for growth. This is nothing more then petty factionalism. In case you do not know, foreign SC2 scene has bigger(finantial) resourses than Korean scene anyway. I`m not sure how much the Korean scene is currently financed by money that foreigners bring in various ways(vievers for streams, sponsors, foreign events attendance), but i wouldn`t hesitate to call it very significant, if not major money source. KeSpa at this point is irrelevant. On August 26 2012 10:15 Severedevil wrote:On August 26 2012 10:05 ShatterZer0 wrote:
I don't understand why people seem to think KESPA is right on this...
They are being unreasonable in protecting their brand and should be willing to step onto an even playing field. Kespa players are still competing in Broodwar. It's not an even playing field. If I understand correctly, by GSL5 they'll have fully transitioned, but ESF are insisting they play GSL before then. If that would be the case, they wouldn`t play WCS, no? Maybe, they wouln`t even play SC2 OSL2, before full transitioning? Oh, wait, they actually do. a) The Korean fanbase may not be tied to keSPA, but they ARE tied to OGN. Without OGN, because MBC Game doesn't exist anymore, the vast majority of the Korean fanbase doesn't watch games. They watch Starcraft on TV, not on their computer. GOM only broadcasts on online streams. b) KeSPA absolutely has more money and resources than the foreign scene. They broadcast on television every week, unlimited broadcast time, put on the biggest events with the biggest crowds, and never charge a dime to watch content or attend live events. They have the biggest sponsors and their players make the most money outside of EG, and the stars make more than twice what even an EG player makes. c) They played in WCS because it was a Blizzard-sponsored event that was happening RIGHT THEN. Blizzard was a part of the eSports Vision conference, and participation in the WCS was probably a part of KESPA's contract to get broadcasting rights to SC2. Please keep facts in mind before spouting stuff. a. How did you figured? they should in fact have computers. b. Wrong. The TV vs internet is meaningless. Just look at SC2 scene Sponsors. Intel, AMD, LG, Red Bull, and a crapload of smaller sponsors. KeSpa sposor that can match that, is basically Samsung, and nothing more. Foreign scene has more vievers overall. You just need to add up all the streams with different languages. The Crowds, again are more about the scene being compact, and lokated in fan-dence Korea as opposed to spread out. The SC2 foreign scene has more teams than KeSPA, the wage of non-star players is better. Not to mention the number of SC2 events. MLG, IPL, Dreamhak, IEM, NASL, Homestory cup, WCS, many of which happen multiple times in one year, and I`m only counting the events that have at least comparable prise for winner (>10k). c. It is irrelevant they participated in SC2 tournament, so they were ready to participate in big SC2 events. Please, keep your fanboism out, and get the facts straight before posting. wat KT and SKT are like verizon or at&t in korea. CJ is like coca cola, if coke had their fingers in every single entertainment industry. i don't think you can compare any sc2 sponsor to kespa team sponsors However big KT, SKT and CJ are, I have a hard time imagining that they, as national powerhouse companies, are bigger than international giants like Red Bull, Coca-Cola, LG and Intel. yes mb they are not as big. but they fuckign own the team THEY OWN IT. they spend millions on that team. and not like razer or steelseries intel amd with 99% of time just give them hardware and shit. you can have bill gates sponsor you but if he just gives u 1 windows CD for free. the sponsor isnt so fucking huge. i doubt Red Bull , LG give millions to IM and ST. wasn't aware that redbull sponsored ST. even so i doubt it's anything more than a pallet of redbull every month, or Redbull might as well actually buy the team out. Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 14:47 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
Red Bull just gave ST enough money to basically buy out another team and move into a teamhouse twice the size of their old one. That's pretty significant, I'd say. And I can't imagine the players they got, especially Line and Life, were cheap, coming off the awesome GSTL performances they were having at the time. considering TSL was the only team that paid any salaries at all for 2 years i doubt life or line cost ST a cent.
You're more than welcome to doubt. I'm quite confident you're wrong, but I can't produce any evidence on that score.
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In the end the SC2 as an esports loses -.-
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On August 26 2012 14:51 GolemMadness wrote:
The amount of support companies like KT and SKT give their teams is WAY more than Red Bull and Razor or whoever give the Starcraft 2 teams. Single players have six figure salaries.
It's been speculated that that's the case in SC2 as well. We don't really know because teams don't release salary figures.
On August 26 2012 14:49 ShiroKaisen wrote:Remember though, the salaries for eSF players have been shown time and again to be extremely low. The demand of $1500 a month, or 18k a year, was "too much" when Fnatic was trying to recruit...uh, Sleep wasn't it? That's not a lot, and that was a wage that was supposed to draw him to switch teams.
From memory, at that time Sleep was a minor player on Slayers, right? He hadn't really accomplished anything.
Look, the argument I'm responding to is "CJ is like Coca-Cola." IM actually has the real Coca-Cola as a sponsor. Coca-Cola is the single most valuable company in the world. Intel and LG are gigantic as well, and Red Bull is large enough to fully own something like four soccer teams in various leagues, four or five racing organizations and a hockey team. The argument is about size and prestige rather than amount of support. "Just look at SC2 scene Sponsors. Intel, AMD, LG, Red Bull, and a crapload of smaller sponsors. KeSpa sposor that can match that, is basically Samsung, and nothing more." became "KT and SKT are like verizon or at&t in korea. CJ is like coca cola, if coke had their fingers in every single entertainment industry. i don't think you can compare any sc2 sponsor to kespa team sponsors." And that's strictly not true.
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On August 26 2012 14:51 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 14:45 Sawamura wrote:On August 26 2012 14:41 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On August 26 2012 14:37 rauk wrote:On August 26 2012 14:04 naastyOne wrote:On August 26 2012 11:02 ShiroKaisen wrote:On August 26 2012 10:18 naastyOne wrote:On August 25 2012 18:46 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 18:37 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." I think that their goal is to carry Korean E-Sports a step forward globally, and they feel that GOM and all of the foreign tourneys have done this. KeSPA has made a lot of claims about wanting to open up, but everyone, even the players, are skeptical of that, with good reason to be. They are fighting not just for GOM, but for the KeSPA players, the foreign players, and the fans globally I think. Most of the fans support GOM and what they have done for the community, that includes the SC2 pro players it appears. This is just short sighted us vs them mentality. Consider what the scene has to lose by this. If the first OS2L ends up bombing because of this there's pretty much zero chance of the BW fanbase transitioning to SC2. If kespa can't transition then SC2 loses out on a massive amount of money and infrastructure. Dropping out doesn't benefit the fans or the players. I do not get it, how exactly are the BW fanbase and KeSPA transition related. The BW fanbase will need to become SC2 fanbase to be revelant, with or without KeSPA. The BW fanbase is not bolted to KeSPA. They can remain BW fanbase, or become SC2 fanbase or become neither. It is not about OSL, it is about people choices. On August 25 2012 18:46 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 18:40 Otak wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." Are you kidding? GomTv has been showing Starcraft 2 since 2010 and has done a very good job doing so. Kespa has recently started sc2 and now wants the monopoly on having ALL the big name players in one tournament. If you're too blinded to see that Kespa is just deliberately trying to shut GomTv out so that they become irrelevant again then I don't know what to say to you. And to be quite honest, I think in everyones mind, GSL is the premier sc2 tournament at the moment, not the Kespa league. And so what if GOM does end up becoming irrelevant? Did you ever stop to consider that SC2 might be better off under kespa? They bring far more to the table in terms of resources and potential for growth. This is nothing more then petty factionalism. In case you do not know, foreign SC2 scene has bigger(finantial) resourses than Korean scene anyway. I`m not sure how much the Korean scene is currently financed by money that foreigners bring in various ways(vievers for streams, sponsors, foreign events attendance), but i wouldn`t hesitate to call it very significant, if not major money source. KeSpa at this point is irrelevant. On August 26 2012 10:15 Severedevil wrote:On August 26 2012 10:05 ShatterZer0 wrote:
I don't understand why people seem to think KESPA is right on this...
They are being unreasonable in protecting their brand and should be willing to step onto an even playing field. Kespa players are still competing in Broodwar. It's not an even playing field. If I understand correctly, by GSL5 they'll have fully transitioned, but ESF are insisting they play GSL before then. If that would be the case, they wouldn`t play WCS, no? Maybe, they wouln`t even play SC2 OSL2, before full transitioning? Oh, wait, they actually do. a) The Korean fanbase may not be tied to keSPA, but they ARE tied to OGN. Without OGN, because MBC Game doesn't exist anymore, the vast majority of the Korean fanbase doesn't watch games. They watch Starcraft on TV, not on their computer. GOM only broadcasts on online streams. b) KeSPA absolutely has more money and resources than the foreign scene. They broadcast on television every week, unlimited broadcast time, put on the biggest events with the biggest crowds, and never charge a dime to watch content or attend live events. They have the biggest sponsors and their players make the most money outside of EG, and the stars make more than twice what even an EG player makes. c) They played in WCS because it was a Blizzard-sponsored event that was happening RIGHT THEN. Blizzard was a part of the eSports Vision conference, and participation in the WCS was probably a part of KESPA's contract to get broadcasting rights to SC2. Please keep facts in mind before spouting stuff. a. How did you figured? they should in fact have computers. b. Wrong. The TV vs internet is meaningless. Just look at SC2 scene Sponsors. Intel, AMD, LG, Red Bull, and a crapload of smaller sponsors. KeSpa sposor that can match that, is basically Samsung, and nothing more. Foreign scene has more vievers overall. You just need to add up all the streams with different languages. The Crowds, again are more about the scene being compact, and lokated in fan-dence Korea as opposed to spread out. The SC2 foreign scene has more teams than KeSPA, the wage of non-star players is better. Not to mention the number of SC2 events. MLG, IPL, Dreamhak, IEM, NASL, Homestory cup, WCS, many of which happen multiple times in one year, and I`m only counting the events that have at least comparable prise for winner (>10k). c. It is irrelevant they participated in SC2 tournament, so they were ready to participate in big SC2 events. Please, keep your fanboism out, and get the facts straight before posting. wat KT and SKT are like verizon or at&t in korea. CJ is like coca cola, if coke had their fingers in every single entertainment industry. i don't think you can compare any sc2 sponsor to kespa team sponsors However big KT, SKT and CJ are, I have a hard time imagining that they, as national powerhouse companies, are bigger than international giants like Red Bull, Coca-Cola, LG and Intel. STX is every where in the world managing logistics and shipping . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STX_Corporation True, it's a pretty big company. Intel's average annual revenue is double the total assets of STX, and Intel's total asset value is more than triple. LG is a touch under three times as large by total asset value.
You are either misunderstanding or purposely misrepresenting different sponsorship models.
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On August 26 2012 14:53 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 14:51 GolemMadness wrote:
The amount of support companies like KT and SKT give their teams is WAY more than Red Bull and Razor or whoever give the Starcraft 2 teams. Single players have six figure salaries. It's been speculated that that's the case in SC2 as well. We don't really know because teams don't release salary figures.
if that were the case koreans wouldn't be so eager to jump ship to foreign teams where they get turned down because 18k a year is too much for them to pay.
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Jesus, the posts in this thread are fucking terrible.
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On August 26 2012 14:48 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 14:45 rasers wrote:On August 26 2012 14:41 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On August 26 2012 14:37 rauk wrote:On August 26 2012 14:04 naastyOne wrote:On August 26 2012 11:02 ShiroKaisen wrote:On August 26 2012 10:18 naastyOne wrote:On August 25 2012 18:46 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 18:37 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." I think that their goal is to carry Korean E-Sports a step forward globally, and they feel that GOM and all of the foreign tourneys have done this. KeSPA has made a lot of claims about wanting to open up, but everyone, even the players, are skeptical of that, with good reason to be. They are fighting not just for GOM, but for the KeSPA players, the foreign players, and the fans globally I think. Most of the fans support GOM and what they have done for the community, that includes the SC2 pro players it appears. This is just short sighted us vs them mentality. Consider what the scene has to lose by this. If the first OS2L ends up bombing because of this there's pretty much zero chance of the BW fanbase transitioning to SC2. If kespa can't transition then SC2 loses out on a massive amount of money and infrastructure. Dropping out doesn't benefit the fans or the players. I do not get it, how exactly are the BW fanbase and KeSPA transition related. The BW fanbase will need to become SC2 fanbase to be revelant, with or without KeSPA. The BW fanbase is not bolted to KeSPA. They can remain BW fanbase, or become SC2 fanbase or become neither. It is not about OSL, it is about people choices. On August 25 2012 18:46 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 18:40 Otak wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." Are you kidding? GomTv has been showing Starcraft 2 since 2010 and has done a very good job doing so. Kespa has recently started sc2 and now wants the monopoly on having ALL the big name players in one tournament. If you're too blinded to see that Kespa is just deliberately trying to shut GomTv out so that they become irrelevant again then I don't know what to say to you. And to be quite honest, I think in everyones mind, GSL is the premier sc2 tournament at the moment, not the Kespa league. And so what if GOM does end up becoming irrelevant? Did you ever stop to consider that SC2 might be better off under kespa? They bring far more to the table in terms of resources and potential for growth. This is nothing more then petty factionalism. In case you do not know, foreign SC2 scene has bigger(finantial) resourses than Korean scene anyway. I`m not sure how much the Korean scene is currently financed by money that foreigners bring in various ways(vievers for streams, sponsors, foreign events attendance), but i wouldn`t hesitate to call it very significant, if not major money source. KeSpa at this point is irrelevant. On August 26 2012 10:15 Severedevil wrote:On August 26 2012 10:05 ShatterZer0 wrote:
I don't understand why people seem to think KESPA is right on this...
They are being unreasonable in protecting their brand and should be willing to step onto an even playing field. Kespa players are still competing in Broodwar. It's not an even playing field. If I understand correctly, by GSL5 they'll have fully transitioned, but ESF are insisting they play GSL before then. If that would be the case, they wouldn`t play WCS, no? Maybe, they wouln`t even play SC2 OSL2, before full transitioning? Oh, wait, they actually do. a) The Korean fanbase may not be tied to keSPA, but they ARE tied to OGN. Without OGN, because MBC Game doesn't exist anymore, the vast majority of the Korean fanbase doesn't watch games. They watch Starcraft on TV, not on their computer. GOM only broadcasts on online streams. b) KeSPA absolutely has more money and resources than the foreign scene. They broadcast on television every week, unlimited broadcast time, put on the biggest events with the biggest crowds, and never charge a dime to watch content or attend live events. They have the biggest sponsors and their players make the most money outside of EG, and the stars make more than twice what even an EG player makes. c) They played in WCS because it was a Blizzard-sponsored event that was happening RIGHT THEN. Blizzard was a part of the eSports Vision conference, and participation in the WCS was probably a part of KESPA's contract to get broadcasting rights to SC2. Please keep facts in mind before spouting stuff. a. How did you figured? they should in fact have computers. b. Wrong. The TV vs internet is meaningless. Just look at SC2 scene Sponsors. Intel, AMD, LG, Red Bull, and a crapload of smaller sponsors. KeSpa sposor that can match that, is basically Samsung, and nothing more. Foreign scene has more vievers overall. You just need to add up all the streams with different languages. The Crowds, again are more about the scene being compact, and lokated in fan-dence Korea as opposed to spread out. The SC2 foreign scene has more teams than KeSPA, the wage of non-star players is better. Not to mention the number of SC2 events. MLG, IPL, Dreamhak, IEM, NASL, Homestory cup, WCS, many of which happen multiple times in one year, and I`m only counting the events that have at least comparable prise for winner (>10k). c. It is irrelevant they participated in SC2 tournament, so they were ready to participate in big SC2 events. Please, keep your fanboism out, and get the facts straight before posting. wat KT and SKT are like verizon or at&t in korea. CJ is like coca cola, if coke had their fingers in every single entertainment industry. i don't think you can compare any sc2 sponsor to kespa team sponsors However big KT, SKT and CJ are, I have a hard time imagining that they, as national powerhouse companies, are bigger than international giants like Red Bull, Coca-Cola, LG and Intel. yes mb they are not as big. but they fuckign own the team THEY OWN IT. they spend millions on that team. and not like razer or steelseries intel amd with 99% of time just give them hardware and shit. you can have bill gates sponsor you but if he just gives u 1 windows CD for free. the sponsor isnt so fucking huge. i doubt Red Bull , LG give millions to IM and ST. wasn't aware that redbull sponsored ST. even so i doubt it's anything more than a pallet of redbull every month, or Redbull might as well actually buy the team out.
Have you actually seen a Startale player? They wear these shirts with a huge Red Bull logo on the front, I honestly don't think you have a clue what you are talking about.
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On August 26 2012 14:55 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 14:51 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On August 26 2012 14:45 Sawamura wrote:On August 26 2012 14:41 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On August 26 2012 14:37 rauk wrote:On August 26 2012 14:04 naastyOne wrote:On August 26 2012 11:02 ShiroKaisen wrote:On August 26 2012 10:18 naastyOne wrote:On August 25 2012 18:46 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 18:37 TheAmazombie wrote:
[quote]
I think that their goal is to carry Korean E-Sports a step forward globally, and they feel that GOM and all of the foreign tourneys have done this. KeSPA has made a lot of claims about wanting to open up, but everyone, even the players, are skeptical of that, with good reason to be. They are fighting not just for GOM, but for the KeSPA players, the foreign players, and the fans globally I think. Most of the fans support GOM and what they have done for the community, that includes the SC2 pro players it appears. This is just short sighted us vs them mentality. Consider what the scene has to lose by this. If the first OS2L ends up bombing because of this there's pretty much zero chance of the BW fanbase transitioning to SC2. If kespa can't transition then SC2 loses out on a massive amount of money and infrastructure. Dropping out doesn't benefit the fans or the players. I do not get it, how exactly are the BW fanbase and KeSPA transition related. The BW fanbase will need to become SC2 fanbase to be revelant, with or without KeSPA. The BW fanbase is not bolted to KeSPA. They can remain BW fanbase, or become SC2 fanbase or become neither. It is not about OSL, it is about people choices. On August 25 2012 18:46 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 18:40 Otak wrote:
[quote]
Are you kidding? GomTv has been showing Starcraft 2 since 2010 and has done a very good job doing so. Kespa has recently started sc2 and now wants the monopoly on having ALL the big name players in one tournament. If you're too blinded to see that Kespa is just deliberately trying to shut GomTv out so that they become irrelevant again then I don't know what to say to you. And to be quite honest, I think in everyones mind, GSL is the premier sc2 tournament at the moment, not the Kespa league. And so what if GOM does end up becoming irrelevant? Did you ever stop to consider that SC2 might be better off under kespa? They bring far more to the table in terms of resources and potential for growth. This is nothing more then petty factionalism. In case you do not know, foreign SC2 scene has bigger(finantial) resourses than Korean scene anyway. I`m not sure how much the Korean scene is currently financed by money that foreigners bring in various ways(vievers for streams, sponsors, foreign events attendance), but i wouldn`t hesitate to call it very significant, if not major money source. KeSpa at this point is irrelevant. On August 26 2012 10:15 Severedevil wrote:On August 26 2012 10:05 ShatterZer0 wrote:
I don't understand why people seem to think KESPA is right on this...
They are being unreasonable in protecting their brand and should be willing to step onto an even playing field. Kespa players are still competing in Broodwar. It's not an even playing field. If I understand correctly, by GSL5 they'll have fully transitioned, but ESF are insisting they play GSL before then. If that would be the case, they wouldn`t play WCS, no? Maybe, they wouln`t even play SC2 OSL2, before full transitioning? Oh, wait, they actually do. a) The Korean fanbase may not be tied to keSPA, but they ARE tied to OGN. Without OGN, because MBC Game doesn't exist anymore, the vast majority of the Korean fanbase doesn't watch games. They watch Starcraft on TV, not on their computer. GOM only broadcasts on online streams. b) KeSPA absolutely has more money and resources than the foreign scene. They broadcast on television every week, unlimited broadcast time, put on the biggest events with the biggest crowds, and never charge a dime to watch content or attend live events. They have the biggest sponsors and their players make the most money outside of EG, and the stars make more than twice what even an EG player makes. c) They played in WCS because it was a Blizzard-sponsored event that was happening RIGHT THEN. Blizzard was a part of the eSports Vision conference, and participation in the WCS was probably a part of KESPA's contract to get broadcasting rights to SC2. Please keep facts in mind before spouting stuff. a. How did you figured? they should in fact have computers. b. Wrong. The TV vs internet is meaningless. Just look at SC2 scene Sponsors. Intel, AMD, LG, Red Bull, and a crapload of smaller sponsors. KeSpa sposor that can match that, is basically Samsung, and nothing more. Foreign scene has more vievers overall. You just need to add up all the streams with different languages. The Crowds, again are more about the scene being compact, and lokated in fan-dence Korea as opposed to spread out. The SC2 foreign scene has more teams than KeSPA, the wage of non-star players is better. Not to mention the number of SC2 events. MLG, IPL, Dreamhak, IEM, NASL, Homestory cup, WCS, many of which happen multiple times in one year, and I`m only counting the events that have at least comparable prise for winner (>10k). c. It is irrelevant they participated in SC2 tournament, so they were ready to participate in big SC2 events. Please, keep your fanboism out, and get the facts straight before posting. wat KT and SKT are like verizon or at&t in korea. CJ is like coca cola, if coke had their fingers in every single entertainment industry. i don't think you can compare any sc2 sponsor to kespa team sponsors However big KT, SKT and CJ are, I have a hard time imagining that they, as national powerhouse companies, are bigger than international giants like Red Bull, Coca-Cola, LG and Intel. STX is every where in the world managing logistics and shipping . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STX_Corporation True, it's a pretty big company. Intel's average annual revenue is double the total assets of STX, and Intel's total asset value is more than triple. LG is a touch under three times as large by total asset value. You are either misunderstanding or purposely misrepresenting different sponsorship models.
You've either misunderstood or are misrepresenting the discussion. I'm not claiming much about sponsorships. and facts about what businesses STX is involved in are not relevant to those discussions. I, and the person to whom I was responding, were talking entirely about size. Read the posts above in the chain, and all will be made clear.
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On August 26 2012 14:55 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 14:53 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On August 26 2012 14:51 GolemMadness wrote:
The amount of support companies like KT and SKT give their teams is WAY more than Red Bull and Razor or whoever give the Starcraft 2 teams. Single players have six figure salaries. It's been speculated that that's the case in SC2 as well. We don't really know because teams don't release salary figures. if that were the case koreans wouldn't be so eager to jump ship to foreign teams where they get turned down because 18k a year is too much for them to pay.
The only Korean's jumping ship are the non superstars in teams that aren't im or startale.
It is true that kespa pays more on average, but from this article it doesn't look like much at all.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=126075
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On August 26 2012 14:55 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 14:53 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On August 26 2012 14:51 GolemMadness wrote:
The amount of support companies like KT and SKT give their teams is WAY more than Red Bull and Razor or whoever give the Starcraft 2 teams. Single players have six figure salaries. It's been speculated that that's the case in SC2 as well. We don't really know because teams don't release salary figures. if that were the case koreans wouldn't be so eager to jump ship to foreign teams where they get turned down because 18k a year is too much for them to pay.
18k was too much to pay for a B-team player with no accomplishments or, really, any tournament involvement. You're not going to find any Brood War practice partners making that much, for instance.
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EPT
