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ALLEYCAT BLUES51718 Posts
On August 26 2012 15:31 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 15:24 BLinD-RawR wrote:
today's sunday, as much as I would love to ague with people in this thread there won't be any updates today. The osl starts in 2 days, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a meeting over the weekend.
but nothing will be announced today, probably tomorrow.
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On August 26 2012 15:37 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 15:31 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 15:24 BLinD-RawR wrote:
today's sunday, as much as I would love to ague with people in this thread there won't be any updates today. The osl starts in 2 days, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a meeting over the weekend. but nothing will be announced today, probably tomorrow.
You're probably right, I'm just hoping for a resolution to this 
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Can someone please explain to me whats going on with Kespa? I dont really understand it very well...
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On August 26 2012 15:39 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 15:37 BLinD-RawR wrote:On August 26 2012 15:31 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 15:24 BLinD-RawR wrote:
today's sunday, as much as I would love to ague with people in this thread there won't be any updates today. The osl starts in 2 days, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a meeting over the weekend. but nothing will be announced today, probably tomorrow. You're probably right, I'm just hoping for a resolution to this
I've been scanning the usual channels for updates. None so far, though I'll be here to update as soon as its out. If someone has any updates or anything just post it right away so we can update op.
How Kespa will play this depends on how powerful they think they are, in terms of summoning larger clout among sponsors in korea and having wider margin potential of talent in the long run. If they think they are not ready yet, then I expect some concessions. But I won't be surprised if they damn GOM and ESF altogether. They are not as weak as they seem. I think this really boils down to the bottom line - money. If GOM were any powerful, they'd be killing Kespa too.
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On August 26 2012 15:52 6NR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 15:39 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 15:37 BLinD-RawR wrote:On August 26 2012 15:31 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 15:24 BLinD-RawR wrote:
today's sunday, as much as I would love to ague with people in this thread there won't be any updates today. The osl starts in 2 days, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a meeting over the weekend. but nothing will be announced today, probably tomorrow. You're probably right, I'm just hoping for a resolution to this I've been scanning the usual channels for updates. None so far, though I'll be here to update as soon as its out. If someone has any updates or anything just post it right away so we can update op. How Kespa will play this depends on how powerful they think they are, in terms of summoning larger clout among sponsors in korea and having wider margin potential of talent in the long run. If they think they are not ready yet, then I expect some concessions. But I won't be surprised if they damn GOM and ESF altogether. They are not as weak as they seem. I think this really boils down to the bottom line - money. If GOM were any powerful, they'd be killing Kespa too.
Well, GOM has not yet tried to kill any other league. Not the NASl, IPL, MLG, Dreamhack, HomestoryCup, Gathering, Ironsquid, IEM or the ASUS ROG. If we speak about not beeing powerful enough, they also didn't hurt the small korean online tournaments like the ESV.
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I'm sure there will be plenty of backroom talking on many channels even today (Sunday) as time is running out for the start of OSL and the Code A qualifiers in a few days.
Especially the main sponsor Auction ALL KILL will be worried that "their" OSL is going to be a total flop and thus be in constant talks with KeSPA. Same with OGN who fear that all the pre-produced content for the first ever SC2 OSL was in vain and that the programming schedule in regards to the starleague for the next 3 months is on the line. KeSPA team sponsors will be contemplating if their image will be damaged if this goes any further and whether it all was worth it. Blizzard also has an interest that things get resolved and might already be trying to mediate things talking to various stakeholders.
One can only hope they all will come to their senses and recall their pledges at the Joint eSports Conference a few months ago to be open and to grow e-sports together.
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On August 26 2012 16:00 Sandermatt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 15:52 6NR wrote:On August 26 2012 15:39 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 15:37 BLinD-RawR wrote:On August 26 2012 15:31 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 15:24 BLinD-RawR wrote:
today's sunday, as much as I would love to ague with people in this thread there won't be any updates today. The osl starts in 2 days, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a meeting over the weekend. but nothing will be announced today, probably tomorrow. You're probably right, I'm just hoping for a resolution to this I've been scanning the usual channels for updates. None so far, though I'll be here to update as soon as its out. If someone has any updates or anything just post it right away so we can update op. How Kespa will play this depends on how powerful they think they are, in terms of summoning larger clout among sponsors in korea and having wider margin potential of talent in the long run. If they think they are not ready yet, then I expect some concessions. But I won't be surprised if they damn GOM and ESF altogether. They are not as weak as they seem. I think this really boils down to the bottom line - money. If GOM were any powerful, they'd be killing Kespa too. Well, GOM has not yet tried to kill any other league. Not the NASl, IPL, MLG, Dreamhack, HomestoryCup, Gathering, Ironsquid, IEM or the ASUS ROG. If we speak about not beeing powerful enough, they also didn't hurt the small korean online tournaments like the ESV.
I mean in Korea. Here's the thing. No matter how we deny it, Koreans will once again (if they are not already yet) dominate Starcraft. This is why cornering the Korean SC2 market is critical at this point when the political-economy is not yet complicated and the ecosystem is relatively new.
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On August 26 2012 05:52 S:klogW wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 05:36 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 05:25 S:klogW wrote:On August 26 2012 05:06 mrjpark wrote:On August 25 2012 21:53 Twinkle Toes wrote:On August 25 2012 21:50 boag11 wrote:On August 25 2012 21:36 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 21:32 mrjpark wrote:On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:
[quote]
No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier. Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing. On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:
[quote]
And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want.
ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that.
You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then.
More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever. If the NBA/NFL/MLB decided to just run without a player's union, do you think people would just sit down and take it? I mean, there's really nowhere else to go that gives a decent wage, so the owners technically have all the leverage. Without the unions, the players would be treated like crap. Due to lack of any real alternatives, that was the situation for Brood War. The players had to either put up with KeSPA's bullshit or find another career. Now that StarCraft has been globalized, this is no longer the case and the ESF has become the player's union for Korean SC2. Now, KeSPA's back in the picture trying to get the upper hand once more. In terms of pure business perspective, this is fine. Until you realize that once they're back in power, the players lose their voice once more and we've time traveled into the past where workers had no rights. All these players that are influential in the ESF? They're all ex-KeSPA B teamers. They've all been there and done that. They know what they're up against, and they're sure as hell not letting it permeate the Korean eSports scene again. Would KeSPA kill eSports? Probably not. But that has nothing to do with the fact that right now, the ESF is protecting not only their own careers, but the careers of their KeSPA friends; players from the BW teams that have no voice of their own. When unions hold strikes, it's obviously "stupid". From a pure business standpoint, they're obviously in the wrong. I mean, they have contracts with their employees and they should just grind it out. But sometimes, you need to fight for something, and the ESF thinks this is worth it. In the long run, the ESF running things is better for global eSports, while KeSPA may be able to run Korean eSports better in the short term. Your opinion seems to be one that completely disregards the players. Sure, you'll still get your games and they'll probably be good no matter who comes out on top. But obviously, the players are a bit more emotionally/financially involved in this than you are and are willing to fight for their futures. Do you seriously think ESF represents the players here? They're nothing more than GOM's lapdogs. The only thing they're protecting is the GSL. Do you seriously think ESF doesnt represents the players here? They're definitely not nothing more then GOM's lapdogs. The only thing they're protecting is themselves. See what I did there? Why is it so hard for you to believe that ESF is doing all this to protect themselves and their futures from Kespa. Who for the last 10 years have oppressed their own progamers A 9-post user who registered January 2012 commenting on how Kespa "oppressed their own progamers" wow You joined in May, so you must know absolutely nothing then according to your logic. But he was not making any claims, unlike boag11 which seems too specific considering the circumstance. I was following this thread out of curiosity and personally think he has a point and that the ban is uncalled for. Bah! I don't want to get involved in moderation issues. He was also flaming everyone...? I don't remember exactly how the exchange went down, but he was provoking a response only from him, until all you guys jumped in. At that point, the issue was simple the way I see it. How could a someone who joined recently and had posted only a few times know something as specific like corruption in Kespa. Whatever you guys said was unnecessary, he needed to respond to it himself. Otherwise, see ^monkybone's post above. He could have replied outright about things he knew to support him, but he did not and others just messed up the issue. Ok, that's it for me. Time to do some science now. Goodluck with this dispute, I hope it turns out great for everyone.
Then why did you jump in? I've been frequenting TL way before my join date, I just didn't take the time to make any posts until then. Also, not posting in TL does not = not following BW. That's actually a very arrogant connection to make.
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Sweden33723 Posts
On August 26 2012 14:17 Severedevil wrote:
Of course ESF/GOM can back down from backstabbing the OSL. Kespa is in GSL Season 5. There's no issue.
... Disgusting amount of selective blindness going on by some people in this thread.
And for anyone arguing whether KeSPA teams or non-KeSPA teams are paying better money, of fucking course KeSPA teams are paying more. Doesn't make the fact that KeSPA are completely in the wrong here any different.
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On August 26 2012 16:40 mrjpark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 05:52 S:klogW wrote:On August 26 2012 05:36 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 05:25 S:klogW wrote:On August 26 2012 05:06 mrjpark wrote:On August 25 2012 21:53 Twinkle Toes wrote:On August 25 2012 21:50 boag11 wrote:On August 25 2012 21:36 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 21:32 mrjpark wrote:On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:
[quote]
Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing.
[quote]
More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever. If the NBA/NFL/MLB decided to just run without a player's union, do you think people would just sit down and take it? I mean, there's really nowhere else to go that gives a decent wage, so the owners technically have all the leverage. Without the unions, the players would be treated like crap. Due to lack of any real alternatives, that was the situation for Brood War. The players had to either put up with KeSPA's bullshit or find another career. Now that StarCraft has been globalized, this is no longer the case and the ESF has become the player's union for Korean SC2. Now, KeSPA's back in the picture trying to get the upper hand once more. In terms of pure business perspective, this is fine. Until you realize that once they're back in power, the players lose their voice once more and we've time traveled into the past where workers had no rights. All these players that are influential in the ESF? They're all ex-KeSPA B teamers. They've all been there and done that. They know what they're up against, and they're sure as hell not letting it permeate the Korean eSports scene again. Would KeSPA kill eSports? Probably not. But that has nothing to do with the fact that right now, the ESF is protecting not only their own careers, but the careers of their KeSPA friends; players from the BW teams that have no voice of their own. When unions hold strikes, it's obviously "stupid". From a pure business standpoint, they're obviously in the wrong. I mean, they have contracts with their employees and they should just grind it out. But sometimes, you need to fight for something, and the ESF thinks this is worth it. In the long run, the ESF running things is better for global eSports, while KeSPA may be able to run Korean eSports better in the short term. Your opinion seems to be one that completely disregards the players. Sure, you'll still get your games and they'll probably be good no matter who comes out on top. But obviously, the players are a bit more emotionally/financially involved in this than you are and are willing to fight for their futures. Do you seriously think ESF represents the players here? They're nothing more than GOM's lapdogs. The only thing they're protecting is the GSL. Do you seriously think ESF doesnt represents the players here? They're definitely not nothing more then GOM's lapdogs. The only thing they're protecting is themselves. See what I did there? Why is it so hard for you to believe that ESF is doing all this to protect themselves and their futures from Kespa. Who for the last 10 years have oppressed their own progamers A 9-post user who registered January 2012 commenting on how Kespa "oppressed their own progamers" wow You joined in May, so you must know absolutely nothing then according to your logic. But he was not making any claims, unlike boag11 which seems too specific considering the circumstance. I was following this thread out of curiosity and personally think he has a point and that the ban is uncalled for. Bah! I don't want to get involved in moderation issues. He was also flaming everyone...? I don't remember exactly how the exchange went down, but he was provoking a response only from him, until all you guys jumped in. At that point, the issue was simple the way I see it. How could a someone who joined recently and had posted only a few times know something as specific like corruption in Kespa. Whatever you guys said was unnecessary, he needed to respond to it himself. Otherwise, see ^monkybone's post above. He could have replied outright about things he knew to support him, but he did not and others just messed up the issue. Ok, that's it for me. Time to do some science now. Goodluck with this dispute, I hope it turns out great for everyone. Then why did you jump in? I've been frequenting TL way before my join date, I just didn't take the time to make any posts until then. Also, not posting in TL does not = not following BW. That's actually a very arrogant connection to make.
Please stop this. Make a thread if you want to talk about bans and post counts. Let's discuss Kespa-GOM issue here.
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On August 26 2012 16:00 Sandermatt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 15:52 6NR wrote:On August 26 2012 15:39 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 15:37 BLinD-RawR wrote:On August 26 2012 15:31 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 15:24 BLinD-RawR wrote:
today's sunday, as much as I would love to ague with people in this thread there won't be any updates today. The osl starts in 2 days, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a meeting over the weekend. but nothing will be announced today, probably tomorrow. You're probably right, I'm just hoping for a resolution to this I've been scanning the usual channels for updates. None so far, though I'll be here to update as soon as its out. If someone has any updates or anything just post it right away so we can update op. How Kespa will play this depends on how powerful they think they are, in terms of summoning larger clout among sponsors in korea and having wider margin potential of talent in the long run. If they think they are not ready yet, then I expect some concessions. But I won't be surprised if they damn GOM and ESF altogether. They are not as weak as they seem. I think this really boils down to the bottom line - money. If GOM were any powerful, they'd be killing Kespa too. Well, GOM has not yet tried to kill any other league. Not the NASl, IPL, MLG, Dreamhack, HomestoryCup, Gathering, Ironsquid, IEM or the ASUS ROG. If we speak about not beeing powerful enough, they also didn't hurt the small korean online tournaments like the ESV.
GOM didn't need to kill any other league in Korea, they had an exclusiveness 2 year license.
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On August 26 2012 17:10 bucckevin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 16:00 Sandermatt wrote:On August 26 2012 15:52 6NR wrote:On August 26 2012 15:39 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 15:37 BLinD-RawR wrote:On August 26 2012 15:31 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 15:24 BLinD-RawR wrote:
today's sunday, as much as I would love to ague with people in this thread there won't be any updates today. The osl starts in 2 days, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a meeting over the weekend. but nothing will be announced today, probably tomorrow. You're probably right, I'm just hoping for a resolution to this I've been scanning the usual channels for updates. None so far, though I'll be here to update as soon as its out. If someone has any updates or anything just post it right away so we can update op. How Kespa will play this depends on how powerful they think they are, in terms of summoning larger clout among sponsors in korea and having wider margin potential of talent in the long run. If they think they are not ready yet, then I expect some concessions. But I won't be surprised if they damn GOM and ESF altogether. They are not as weak as they seem. I think this really boils down to the bottom line - money. If GOM were any powerful, they'd be killing Kespa too. Well, GOM has not yet tried to kill any other league. Not the NASl, IPL, MLG, Dreamhack, HomestoryCup, Gathering, Ironsquid, IEM or the ASUS ROG. If we speak about not beeing powerful enough, they also didn't hurt the small korean online tournaments like the ESV. GOM didn't need to kill any other league in Korea, they had an exclusiveness 2 year license. yeah and remember they got it because kespa was too busy having some ultimately totally pointless legal tangle with blizzard
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On August 26 2012 16:00 Sandermatt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 15:52 6NR wrote:On August 26 2012 15:39 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 15:37 BLinD-RawR wrote:On August 26 2012 15:31 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 15:24 BLinD-RawR wrote:
today's sunday, as much as I would love to ague with people in this thread there won't be any updates today. The osl starts in 2 days, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a meeting over the weekend. but nothing will be announced today, probably tomorrow. You're probably right, I'm just hoping for a resolution to this I've been scanning the usual channels for updates. None so far, though I'll be here to update as soon as its out. If someone has any updates or anything just post it right away so we can update op. How Kespa will play this depends on how powerful they think they are, in terms of summoning larger clout among sponsors in korea and having wider margin potential of talent in the long run. If they think they are not ready yet, then I expect some concessions. But I won't be surprised if they damn GOM and ESF altogether. They are not as weak as they seem. I think this really boils down to the bottom line - money. If GOM were any powerful, they'd be killing Kespa too. Well, GOM has not yet tried to kill any other league. Not the NASl, IPL, MLG, Dreamhack, HomestoryCup, Gathering, Ironsquid, IEM or the ASUS ROG. If we speak about not beeing powerful enough, they also didn't hurt the small korean online tournaments like the ESV.
You're right GOM has a very nice way of working well with others. Even still GOM had no control over the individual players, so they effectively couldn't themselves prevent the players from going to those events, and so couldn't kill any event. I also think one of the two GOM or KESPA should in fact be gone if we want the best games. If we want the players paid well while playing those great games then KESPA is the obvious choice. If we want the players to have a longer leash (which isn't necessarily a good thing) then GOM has to win. Either way one will probably have to go and all these side leagues may become forfeit or at least decreased with the number of Korean talent attending them, that is if you want the best/most creative games.
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This rollercoaster ride can only end with Kespa giving in, ESF holds all of the cards right now. For the sake of esports, clean this up Kespa
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On August 26 2012 15:13 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
I wonder. It's not like Red Bull has had any objections naming teams after themselves.
They only do that if they own the team completely.
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On August 26 2012 16:48 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 14:17 Severedevil wrote:
Of course ESF/GOM can back down from backstabbing the OSL. Kespa is in GSL Season 5. There's no issue. ... Disgusting amount of selective blindness going on by some people in this thread. And for anyone arguing whether KeSPA teams or non-KeSPA teams are paying better money, of fucking course KeSPA teams are paying more. Doesn't make the fact that KeSPA are completely in the wrong here any different. For a change, i can agree with jinro in this.
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I don't think posters in this thread realize what a busy schedule the KeSPA teams have. To clarify, I have compiled the leagues each player in the 3 sponsored teams that were eliminated from PL today take part in.
+ Show Spoiler +
KT Rolster:
Acacia: -
Action: -
Barracks: -
Crazy-Hydra: -
Flash: OSL
Hoejja: -
Mind: -
Motive: -
PerfectMan: -
Stats: -
Wooki: -
Penguin: -
MyungSik: -
Hitman: -
Woongjin Stars:
Aria: -
Bisang: -
Flying: OSL
fokins: -
free: -
Light: -
Rudy: -
Shout: -
Sos: -
Sin: -
Soulkey: -
Woon: -
Zero: -
STX Soul:
Bogus: -
Calm: -
Classic: -
Dear: -
hyvaa: -
Last: OSL
Mini: -
Modesty: -
Shuttle: -
Size: -
Trap: WCG
Yourosia: -
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On August 26 2012 17:10 bucckevin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 16:00 Sandermatt wrote:On August 26 2012 15:52 6NR wrote:On August 26 2012 15:39 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 15:37 BLinD-RawR wrote:On August 26 2012 15:31 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 15:24 BLinD-RawR wrote:
today's sunday, as much as I would love to ague with people in this thread there won't be any updates today. The osl starts in 2 days, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a meeting over the weekend. but nothing will be announced today, probably tomorrow. You're probably right, I'm just hoping for a resolution to this I've been scanning the usual channels for updates. None so far, though I'll be here to update as soon as its out. If someone has any updates or anything just post it right away so we can update op. How Kespa will play this depends on how powerful they think they are, in terms of summoning larger clout among sponsors in korea and having wider margin potential of talent in the long run. If they think they are not ready yet, then I expect some concessions. But I won't be surprised if they damn GOM and ESF altogether. They are not as weak as they seem. I think this really boils down to the bottom line - money. If GOM were any powerful, they'd be killing Kespa too. Well, GOM has not yet tried to kill any other league. Not the NASl, IPL, MLG, Dreamhack, HomestoryCup, Gathering, Ironsquid, IEM or the ASUS ROG. If we speak about not beeing powerful enough, they also didn't hurt the small korean online tournaments like the ESV. GOM didn't need to kill any other league in Korea, they had an exclusiveness 2 year license.
GOM is an international broadcasted league, so their competitors are all other SC2 leagues. Also ESV is played by korean players.
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On August 26 2012 18:11 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
This rollercoaster ride can only end with Kespa giving in, ESF holds all of the cards right now. For the sake of esports, clean this up Kespa
all cards? Kespa still can do OSL\PL with its own players and dominate the korean scene, also it seems they dont give much fuck about international one.
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EPT
