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On August 26 2012 14:51 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 14:45 Sawamura wrote:On August 26 2012 14:41 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On August 26 2012 14:37 rauk wrote:On August 26 2012 14:04 naastyOne wrote:On August 26 2012 11:02 ShiroKaisen wrote:On August 26 2012 10:18 naastyOne wrote:On August 25 2012 18:46 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 18:37 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." I think that their goal is to carry Korean E-Sports a step forward globally, and they feel that GOM and all of the foreign tourneys have done this. KeSPA has made a lot of claims about wanting to open up, but everyone, even the players, are skeptical of that, with good reason to be. They are fighting not just for GOM, but for the KeSPA players, the foreign players, and the fans globally I think. Most of the fans support GOM and what they have done for the community, that includes the SC2 pro players it appears. This is just short sighted us vs them mentality. Consider what the scene has to lose by this. If the first OS2L ends up bombing because of this there's pretty much zero chance of the BW fanbase transitioning to SC2. If kespa can't transition then SC2 loses out on a massive amount of money and infrastructure. Dropping out doesn't benefit the fans or the players. I do not get it, how exactly are the BW fanbase and KeSPA transition related. The BW fanbase will need to become SC2 fanbase to be revelant, with or without KeSPA. The BW fanbase is not bolted to KeSPA. They can remain BW fanbase, or become SC2 fanbase or become neither. It is not about OSL, it is about people choices. On August 25 2012 18:46 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 18:40 Otak wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." Are you kidding? GomTv has been showing Starcraft 2 since 2010 and has done a very good job doing so. Kespa has recently started sc2 and now wants the monopoly on having ALL the big name players in one tournament. If you're too blinded to see that Kespa is just deliberately trying to shut GomTv out so that they become irrelevant again then I don't know what to say to you. And to be quite honest, I think in everyones mind, GSL is the premier sc2 tournament at the moment, not the Kespa league. And so what if GOM does end up becoming irrelevant? Did you ever stop to consider that SC2 might be better off under kespa? They bring far more to the table in terms of resources and potential for growth. This is nothing more then petty factionalism. In case you do not know, foreign SC2 scene has bigger(finantial) resourses than Korean scene anyway. I`m not sure how much the Korean scene is currently financed by money that foreigners bring in various ways(vievers for streams, sponsors, foreign events attendance), but i wouldn`t hesitate to call it very significant, if not major money source. KeSpa at this point is irrelevant. On August 26 2012 10:15 Severedevil wrote:On August 26 2012 10:05 ShatterZer0 wrote:
I don't understand why people seem to think KESPA is right on this...
They are being unreasonable in protecting their brand and should be willing to step onto an even playing field. Kespa players are still competing in Broodwar. It's not an even playing field. If I understand correctly, by GSL5 they'll have fully transitioned, but ESF are insisting they play GSL before then. If that would be the case, they wouldn`t play WCS, no? Maybe, they wouln`t even play SC2 OSL2, before full transitioning? Oh, wait, they actually do. a) The Korean fanbase may not be tied to keSPA, but they ARE tied to OGN. Without OGN, because MBC Game doesn't exist anymore, the vast majority of the Korean fanbase doesn't watch games. They watch Starcraft on TV, not on their computer. GOM only broadcasts on online streams. b) KeSPA absolutely has more money and resources than the foreign scene. They broadcast on television every week, unlimited broadcast time, put on the biggest events with the biggest crowds, and never charge a dime to watch content or attend live events. They have the biggest sponsors and their players make the most money outside of EG, and the stars make more than twice what even an EG player makes. c) They played in WCS because it was a Blizzard-sponsored event that was happening RIGHT THEN. Blizzard was a part of the eSports Vision conference, and participation in the WCS was probably a part of KESPA's contract to get broadcasting rights to SC2. Please keep facts in mind before spouting stuff. a. How did you figured? they should in fact have computers. b. Wrong. The TV vs internet is meaningless. Just look at SC2 scene Sponsors. Intel, AMD, LG, Red Bull, and a crapload of smaller sponsors. KeSpa sposor that can match that, is basically Samsung, and nothing more. Foreign scene has more vievers overall. You just need to add up all the streams with different languages. The Crowds, again are more about the scene being compact, and lokated in fan-dence Korea as opposed to spread out. The SC2 foreign scene has more teams than KeSPA, the wage of non-star players is better. Not to mention the number of SC2 events. MLG, IPL, Dreamhak, IEM, NASL, Homestory cup, WCS, many of which happen multiple times in one year, and I`m only counting the events that have at least comparable prise for winner (>10k). c. It is irrelevant they participated in SC2 tournament, so they were ready to participate in big SC2 events. Please, keep your fanboism out, and get the facts straight before posting. wat KT and SKT are like verizon or at&t in korea. CJ is like coca cola, if coke had their fingers in every single entertainment industry. i don't think you can compare any sc2 sponsor to kespa team sponsors However big KT, SKT and CJ are, I have a hard time imagining that they, as national powerhouse companies, are bigger than international giants like Red Bull, Coca-Cola, LG and Intel. STX is every where in the world managing logistics and shipping . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STX_Corporation True, it's a pretty big company. Intel's average annual revenue is double the total assets of STX, and Intel's total asset value is more than triple. LG is a touch under three times as large by total asset value.
Of course it doesn't matter if company X has 15 billion or 50 billion revenue. What matters is the size of the sponsorship. Just because company X is twice the size of Y, doesn't mean their sponsorships are twice the size as well.
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On August 26 2012 15:10 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 14:51 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On August 26 2012 14:45 Sawamura wrote:On August 26 2012 14:41 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On August 26 2012 14:37 rauk wrote:On August 26 2012 14:04 naastyOne wrote:On August 26 2012 11:02 ShiroKaisen wrote:On August 26 2012 10:18 naastyOne wrote:On August 25 2012 18:46 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 18:37 TheAmazombie wrote:
[quote]
I think that their goal is to carry Korean E-Sports a step forward globally, and they feel that GOM and all of the foreign tourneys have done this. KeSPA has made a lot of claims about wanting to open up, but everyone, even the players, are skeptical of that, with good reason to be. They are fighting not just for GOM, but for the KeSPA players, the foreign players, and the fans globally I think. Most of the fans support GOM and what they have done for the community, that includes the SC2 pro players it appears. This is just short sighted us vs them mentality. Consider what the scene has to lose by this. If the first OS2L ends up bombing because of this there's pretty much zero chance of the BW fanbase transitioning to SC2. If kespa can't transition then SC2 loses out on a massive amount of money and infrastructure. Dropping out doesn't benefit the fans or the players. I do not get it, how exactly are the BW fanbase and KeSPA transition related. The BW fanbase will need to become SC2 fanbase to be revelant, with or without KeSPA. The BW fanbase is not bolted to KeSPA. They can remain BW fanbase, or become SC2 fanbase or become neither. It is not about OSL, it is about people choices. On August 25 2012 18:46 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 18:40 Otak wrote:
[quote]
Are you kidding? GomTv has been showing Starcraft 2 since 2010 and has done a very good job doing so. Kespa has recently started sc2 and now wants the monopoly on having ALL the big name players in one tournament. If you're too blinded to see that Kespa is just deliberately trying to shut GomTv out so that they become irrelevant again then I don't know what to say to you. And to be quite honest, I think in everyones mind, GSL is the premier sc2 tournament at the moment, not the Kespa league. And so what if GOM does end up becoming irrelevant? Did you ever stop to consider that SC2 might be better off under kespa? They bring far more to the table in terms of resources and potential for growth. This is nothing more then petty factionalism. In case you do not know, foreign SC2 scene has bigger(finantial) resourses than Korean scene anyway. I`m not sure how much the Korean scene is currently financed by money that foreigners bring in various ways(vievers for streams, sponsors, foreign events attendance), but i wouldn`t hesitate to call it very significant, if not major money source. KeSpa at this point is irrelevant. On August 26 2012 10:15 Severedevil wrote:On August 26 2012 10:05 ShatterZer0 wrote:
I don't understand why people seem to think KESPA is right on this...
They are being unreasonable in protecting their brand and should be willing to step onto an even playing field. Kespa players are still competing in Broodwar. It's not an even playing field. If I understand correctly, by GSL5 they'll have fully transitioned, but ESF are insisting they play GSL before then. If that would be the case, they wouldn`t play WCS, no? Maybe, they wouln`t even play SC2 OSL2, before full transitioning? Oh, wait, they actually do. a) The Korean fanbase may not be tied to keSPA, but they ARE tied to OGN. Without OGN, because MBC Game doesn't exist anymore, the vast majority of the Korean fanbase doesn't watch games. They watch Starcraft on TV, not on their computer. GOM only broadcasts on online streams. b) KeSPA absolutely has more money and resources than the foreign scene. They broadcast on television every week, unlimited broadcast time, put on the biggest events with the biggest crowds, and never charge a dime to watch content or attend live events. They have the biggest sponsors and their players make the most money outside of EG, and the stars make more than twice what even an EG player makes. c) They played in WCS because it was a Blizzard-sponsored event that was happening RIGHT THEN. Blizzard was a part of the eSports Vision conference, and participation in the WCS was probably a part of KESPA's contract to get broadcasting rights to SC2. Please keep facts in mind before spouting stuff. a. How did you figured? they should in fact have computers. b. Wrong. The TV vs internet is meaningless. Just look at SC2 scene Sponsors. Intel, AMD, LG, Red Bull, and a crapload of smaller sponsors. KeSpa sposor that can match that, is basically Samsung, and nothing more. Foreign scene has more vievers overall. You just need to add up all the streams with different languages. The Crowds, again are more about the scene being compact, and lokated in fan-dence Korea as opposed to spread out. The SC2 foreign scene has more teams than KeSPA, the wage of non-star players is better. Not to mention the number of SC2 events. MLG, IPL, Dreamhak, IEM, NASL, Homestory cup, WCS, many of which happen multiple times in one year, and I`m only counting the events that have at least comparable prise for winner (>10k). c. It is irrelevant they participated in SC2 tournament, so they were ready to participate in big SC2 events. Please, keep your fanboism out, and get the facts straight before posting. wat KT and SKT are like verizon or at&t in korea. CJ is like coca cola, if coke had their fingers in every single entertainment industry. i don't think you can compare any sc2 sponsor to kespa team sponsors However big KT, SKT and CJ are, I have a hard time imagining that they, as national powerhouse companies, are bigger than international giants like Red Bull, Coca-Cola, LG and Intel. STX is every where in the world managing logistics and shipping . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STX_Corporation True, it's a pretty big company. Intel's average annual revenue is double the total assets of STX, and Intel's total asset value is more than triple. LG is a touch under three times as large by total asset value. Of course it doesn't matter if company X has 15 billion or 50 billion revenue. What matters is the size of the sponsorship. Just because company X is twice the size of Y, doesn't mean their sponsorships are twice the size as well.
Absolutely true, and that wasn't the thrust of the discussion I was responding to.
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On August 26 2012 15:03 Myrddraal wrote:
Have you actually seen a Startale player? They wear these shirts with a huge Red Bull logo on the front, I honestly don't think you have a clue what you are talking about.
Yeah, the Red Bull logo is pretty big. I'm seriously wondering why they aren't called Red Bull Startale
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I wonder. It's not like Red Bull has had any objections naming teams after themselves.
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On August 26 2012 15:03 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 14:55 ShadeR wrote:On August 26 2012 14:51 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On August 26 2012 14:45 Sawamura wrote:On August 26 2012 14:41 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On August 26 2012 14:37 rauk wrote:On August 26 2012 14:04 naastyOne wrote:On August 26 2012 11:02 ShiroKaisen wrote:On August 26 2012 10:18 naastyOne wrote:On August 25 2012 18:46 BrosephBrostar wrote:
[quote]
This is just short sighted us vs them mentality. Consider what the scene has to lose by this. If the first OS2L ends up bombing because of this there's pretty much zero chance of the BW fanbase transitioning to SC2. If kespa can't transition then SC2 loses out on a massive amount of money and infrastructure. Dropping out doesn't benefit the fans or the players.
I do not get it, how exactly are the BW fanbase and KeSPA transition related. The BW fanbase will need to become SC2 fanbase to be revelant, with or without KeSPA. The BW fanbase is not bolted to KeSPA. They can remain BW fanbase, or become SC2 fanbase or become neither. It is not about OSL, it is about people choices. On August 25 2012 18:46 BrosephBrostar wrote:
[quote]
And so what if GOM does end up becoming irrelevant? Did you ever stop to consider that SC2 might be better off under kespa? They bring far more to the table in terms of resources and potential for growth. This is nothing more then petty factionalism. In case you do not know, foreign SC2 scene has bigger(finantial) resourses than Korean scene anyway. I`m not sure how much the Korean scene is currently financed by money that foreigners bring in various ways(vievers for streams, sponsors, foreign events attendance), but i wouldn`t hesitate to call it very significant, if not major money source. KeSpa at this point is irrelevant. On August 26 2012 10:15 Severedevil wrote:
[quote]
Kespa players are still competing in Broodwar. It's not an even playing field.
If I understand correctly, by GSL5 they'll have fully transitioned, but ESF are insisting they play GSL before then. If that would be the case, they wouldn`t play WCS, no? Maybe, they wouln`t even play SC2 OSL2, before full transitioning? Oh, wait, they actually do. a) The Korean fanbase may not be tied to keSPA, but they ARE tied to OGN. Without OGN, because MBC Game doesn't exist anymore, the vast majority of the Korean fanbase doesn't watch games. They watch Starcraft on TV, not on their computer. GOM only broadcasts on online streams. b) KeSPA absolutely has more money and resources than the foreign scene. They broadcast on television every week, unlimited broadcast time, put on the biggest events with the biggest crowds, and never charge a dime to watch content or attend live events. They have the biggest sponsors and their players make the most money outside of EG, and the stars make more than twice what even an EG player makes. c) They played in WCS because it was a Blizzard-sponsored event that was happening RIGHT THEN. Blizzard was a part of the eSports Vision conference, and participation in the WCS was probably a part of KESPA's contract to get broadcasting rights to SC2. Please keep facts in mind before spouting stuff. a. How did you figured? they should in fact have computers. b. Wrong. The TV vs internet is meaningless. Just look at SC2 scene Sponsors. Intel, AMD, LG, Red Bull, and a crapload of smaller sponsors. KeSpa sposor that can match that, is basically Samsung, and nothing more. Foreign scene has more vievers overall. You just need to add up all the streams with different languages. The Crowds, again are more about the scene being compact, and lokated in fan-dence Korea as opposed to spread out. The SC2 foreign scene has more teams than KeSPA, the wage of non-star players is better. Not to mention the number of SC2 events. MLG, IPL, Dreamhak, IEM, NASL, Homestory cup, WCS, many of which happen multiple times in one year, and I`m only counting the events that have at least comparable prise for winner (>10k). c. It is irrelevant they participated in SC2 tournament, so they were ready to participate in big SC2 events. Please, keep your fanboism out, and get the facts straight before posting. wat KT and SKT are like verizon or at&t in korea. CJ is like coca cola, if coke had their fingers in every single entertainment industry. i don't think you can compare any sc2 sponsor to kespa team sponsors However big KT, SKT and CJ are, I have a hard time imagining that they, as national powerhouse companies, are bigger than international giants like Red Bull, Coca-Cola, LG and Intel. STX is every where in the world managing logistics and shipping . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STX_Corporation True, it's a pretty big company. Intel's average annual revenue is double the total assets of STX, and Intel's total asset value is more than triple. LG is a touch under three times as large by total asset value. You are either misunderstanding or purposely misrepresenting different sponsorship models. You've either misunderstood or are misrepresenting the discussion. I'm not claiming much about sponsorships. and facts about what businesses STX is involved in are not relevant to those discussions. I, and the person to whom I was responding, were talking entirely about size. Read the posts above in the chain, and all will be made clear.
I don't think he was talking about the size but he was talking about the difference of the sponsorship model between the two huge companies that you are comparing with and trying to say that Bigger assets > not so big assets although it's a international company worldwide.
On August 26 2012 14:37 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 14:04 naastyOne wrote:On August 26 2012 11:02 ShiroKaisen wrote:On August 26 2012 10:18 naastyOne wrote:On August 25 2012 18:46 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 18:37 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." I think that their goal is to carry Korean E-Sports a step forward globally, and they feel that GOM and all of the foreign tourneys have done this. KeSPA has made a lot of claims about wanting to open up, but everyone, even the players, are skeptical of that, with good reason to be. They are fighting not just for GOM, but for the KeSPA players, the foreign players, and the fans globally I think. Most of the fans support GOM and what they have done for the community, that includes the SC2 pro players it appears. This is just short sighted us vs them mentality. Consider what the scene has to lose by this. If the first OS2L ends up bombing because of this there's pretty much zero chance of the BW fanbase transitioning to SC2. If kespa can't transition then SC2 loses out on a massive amount of money and infrastructure. Dropping out doesn't benefit the fans or the players. I do not get it, how exactly are the BW fanbase and KeSPA transition related. The BW fanbase will need to become SC2 fanbase to be revelant, with or without KeSPA. The BW fanbase is not bolted to KeSPA. They can remain BW fanbase, or become SC2 fanbase or become neither. It is not about OSL, it is about people choices. On August 25 2012 18:46 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 18:40 Otak wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." Are you kidding? GomTv has been showing Starcraft 2 since 2010 and has done a very good job doing so. Kespa has recently started sc2 and now wants the monopoly on having ALL the big name players in one tournament. If you're too blinded to see that Kespa is just deliberately trying to shut GomTv out so that they become irrelevant again then I don't know what to say to you. And to be quite honest, I think in everyones mind, GSL is the premier sc2 tournament at the moment, not the Kespa league. And so what if GOM does end up becoming irrelevant? Did you ever stop to consider that SC2 might be better off under kespa? They bring far more to the table in terms of resources and potential for growth. This is nothing more then petty factionalism. In case you do not know, foreign SC2 scene has bigger(finantial) resourses than Korean scene anyway. I`m not sure how much the Korean scene is currently financed by money that foreigners bring in various ways(vievers for streams, sponsors, foreign events attendance), but i wouldn`t hesitate to call it very significant, if not major money source. KeSpa at this point is irrelevant. On August 26 2012 10:15 Severedevil wrote:On August 26 2012 10:05 ShatterZer0 wrote:
I don't understand why people seem to think KESPA is right on this...
They are being unreasonable in protecting their brand and should be willing to step onto an even playing field. Kespa players are still competing in Broodwar. It's not an even playing field. If I understand correctly, by GSL5 they'll have fully transitioned, but ESF are insisting they play GSL before then. If that would be the case, they wouldn`t play WCS, no? Maybe, they wouln`t even play SC2 OSL2, before full transitioning? Oh, wait, they actually do. a) The Korean fanbase may not be tied to keSPA, but they ARE tied to OGN. Without OGN, because MBC Game doesn't exist anymore, the vast majority of the Korean fanbase doesn't watch games. They watch Starcraft on TV, not on their computer. GOM only broadcasts on online streams. b) KeSPA absolutely has more money and resources than the foreign scene. They broadcast on television every week, unlimited broadcast time, put on the biggest events with the biggest crowds, and never charge a dime to watch content or attend live events. They have the biggest sponsors and their players make the most money outside of EG, and the stars make more than twice what even an EG player makes. c) They played in WCS because it was a Blizzard-sponsored event that was happening RIGHT THEN. Blizzard was a part of the eSports Vision conference, and participation in the WCS was probably a part of KESPA's contract to get broadcasting rights to SC2. Please keep facts in mind before spouting stuff. a. How did you figured? they should in fact have computers. b. Wrong. The TV vs internet is meaningless. Just look at SC2 scene Sponsors. Intel, AMD, LG, Red Bull, and a crapload of smaller sponsors. KeSpa sposor that can match that, is basically Samsung, and nothing more. Foreign scene has more vievers overall. You just need to add up all the streams with different languages. The Crowds, again are more about the scene being compact, and lokated in fan-dence Korea as opposed to spread out. The SC2 foreign scene has more teams than KeSPA, the wage of non-star players is better. Not to mention the number of SC2 events. MLG, IPL, Dreamhak, IEM, NASL, Homestory cup, WCS, many of which happen multiple times in one year, and I`m only counting the events that have at least comparable prise for winner (>10k). c. It is irrelevant they participated in SC2 tournament, so they were ready to participate in big SC2 events. Please, keep your fanboism out, and get the facts straight before posting. wat KT and SKT are like verizon or at&t in korea. CJ is like coca cola, if coke had their fingers in every single entertainment industry. i don't think you can compare any sc2 sponsor to kespa team sponsors also foreign scene pays like, 50 bucks a month to random shitty "pros." if you're actually a salaried pro with bonuses, you get paid a real wage. for instance, hiya when he was on lecaf said he got about 80-90k over 2 years plus bonuses for winning matches in proleague.
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You claim
Just look at SC2 scene Sponsors. Intel, AMD, LG, Red Bull, and a crapload of smaller sponsors.
KeSpa sposor that can match that, is basically Samsung, and nothing more.
rauk responds
i don't think you can compare any sc2 sponsor to kespa team sponsors
Basically he is calling you out on comparing apples with oranges. You are being intellectually dishonest when you say that KeSPA sponsors cannot match companies like Intel (because it is bigger).
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You've quite clearly completely missed that none of the words you've quoted in your post are mine or are in response to me. It's either dishonest or foolish to claim such.
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On August 26 2012 14:53 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 14:51 GolemMadness wrote:
The amount of support companies like KT and SKT give their teams is WAY more than Red Bull and Razor or whoever give the Starcraft 2 teams. Single players have six figure salaries. It's been speculated that that's the case in SC2 as well. We don't really know because teams don't release salary figures. Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 14:49 ShiroKaisen wrote:Remember though, the salaries for eSF players have been shown time and again to be extremely low. The demand of $1500 a month, or 18k a year, was "too much" when Fnatic was trying to recruit...uh, Sleep wasn't it? That's not a lot, and that was a wage that was supposed to draw him to switch teams. From memory, at that time Sleep was a minor player on Slayers, right? He hadn't really accomplished anything. Look, the argument I'm responding to is "CJ is like Coca-Cola." IM actually has the real Coca-Cola as a sponsor. Coca-Cola is the single most valuable company in the world. Intel and LG are gigantic as well, and Red Bull is large enough to fully own something like four soccer teams in various leagues, four or five racing organizations and a hockey team. The argument is about size and prestige rather than amount of support. "Just look at SC2 scene Sponsors. Intel, AMD, LG, Red Bull, and a crapload of smaller sponsors. KeSpa sposor that can match that, is basically Samsung, and nothing more." became "KT and SKT are like verizon or at&t in korea. CJ is like coca cola, if coke had their fingers in every single entertainment industry. i don't think you can compare any sc2 sponsor to kespa team sponsors." And that's strictly not true.
Dude, who cares how big a company/sponsor is? What matter is how much they're willing to give the team/people they're sponsoring. The sponsorship could still be crap if the big "Intel", "Coca-Cola", "Red Bull" give out free computer each year and maybe pay for a couple flights to tournament when the smaller "CJ", "LG", "SKT" pays millions to maintain a team.
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On August 26 2012 15:15 ShadeR wrote:You claim Show nested quote +Just look at SC2 scene Sponsors. Intel, AMD, LG, Red Bull, and a crapload of smaller sponsors.
KeSpa sposor that can match that, is basically Samsung, and nothing more. rauk responds Basically he is calling you out on comparing apples with oranges. You are being intellectually dishonest when you say that KeSPA sponsors cannot match companies like Intel (because it is bigger).
Just so this is clear. Intel AMD LG Redbull whatever they might be bigger companies, but the KESPA's sponsorship money is much much more than the SC2 sponsors money. Just because they're a bigger company doesn't mean they're shelling out as much for esports.
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I think it would be interesting to see some statistics of how much money is invested by each of the sponsors on either side.
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On August 26 2012 15:14 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 15:03 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On August 26 2012 14:55 ShadeR wrote:On August 26 2012 14:51 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On August 26 2012 14:45 Sawamura wrote:On August 26 2012 14:41 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On August 26 2012 14:37 rauk wrote:On August 26 2012 14:04 naastyOne wrote:On August 26 2012 11:02 ShiroKaisen wrote:On August 26 2012 10:18 naastyOne wrote:
[quote]
I do not get it, how exactly are the BW fanbase and KeSPA transition related.
The BW fanbase will need to become SC2 fanbase to be revelant, with or without KeSPA.
The BW fanbase is not bolted to KeSPA. They can remain BW fanbase, or become SC2 fanbase or become neither.
It is not about OSL, it is about people choices.
[quote]
In case you do not know, foreign SC2 scene has bigger(finantial) resourses than Korean scene anyway.
I`m not sure how much the Korean scene is currently financed by money that foreigners bring in various ways(vievers for streams, sponsors, foreign events attendance), but i wouldn`t hesitate to call it very significant, if not major money source.
KeSpa at this point is irrelevant.
[quote]
If that would be the case, they wouldn`t play WCS, no?
Maybe, they wouln`t even play SC2 OSL2, before full transitioning? Oh, wait, they actually do. a) The Korean fanbase may not be tied to keSPA, but they ARE tied to OGN. Without OGN, because MBC Game doesn't exist anymore, the vast majority of the Korean fanbase doesn't watch games. They watch Starcraft on TV, not on their computer. GOM only broadcasts on online streams. b) KeSPA absolutely has more money and resources than the foreign scene. They broadcast on television every week, unlimited broadcast time, put on the biggest events with the biggest crowds, and never charge a dime to watch content or attend live events. They have the biggest sponsors and their players make the most money outside of EG, and the stars make more than twice what even an EG player makes. c) They played in WCS because it was a Blizzard-sponsored event that was happening RIGHT THEN. Blizzard was a part of the eSports Vision conference, and participation in the WCS was probably a part of KESPA's contract to get broadcasting rights to SC2. Please keep facts in mind before spouting stuff. a. How did you figured? they should in fact have computers. b. Wrong. The TV vs internet is meaningless. Just look at SC2 scene Sponsors. Intel, AMD, LG, Red Bull, and a crapload of smaller sponsors. KeSpa sposor that can match that, is basically Samsung, and nothing more. Foreign scene has more vievers overall. You just need to add up all the streams with different languages. The Crowds, again are more about the scene being compact, and lokated in fan-dence Korea as opposed to spread out. The SC2 foreign scene has more teams than KeSPA, the wage of non-star players is better. Not to mention the number of SC2 events. MLG, IPL, Dreamhak, IEM, NASL, Homestory cup, WCS, many of which happen multiple times in one year, and I`m only counting the events that have at least comparable prise for winner (>10k). c. It is irrelevant they participated in SC2 tournament, so they were ready to participate in big SC2 events. Please, keep your fanboism out, and get the facts straight before posting. wat KT and SKT are like verizon or at&t in korea. CJ is like coca cola, if coke had their fingers in every single entertainment industry. i don't think you can compare any sc2 sponsor to kespa team sponsors However big KT, SKT and CJ are, I have a hard time imagining that they, as national powerhouse companies, are bigger than international giants like Red Bull, Coca-Cola, LG and Intel. STX is every where in the world managing logistics and shipping . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STX_Corporation True, it's a pretty big company. Intel's average annual revenue is double the total assets of STX, and Intel's total asset value is more than triple. LG is a touch under three times as large by total asset value. You are either misunderstanding or purposely misrepresenting different sponsorship models. You've either misunderstood or are misrepresenting the discussion. I'm not claiming much about sponsorships. and facts about what businesses STX is involved in are not relevant to those discussions. I, and the person to whom I was responding, were talking entirely about size. Read the posts above in the chain, and all will be made clear. I don't think he was talking about the size but he was talking about the difference of the sponsorship model between the two huge companies that you are comparing with and trying to say that Bigger assets > not so big assets although it's a international company worldwide. Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 14:37 rauk wrote:On August 26 2012 14:04 naastyOne wrote:On August 26 2012 11:02 ShiroKaisen wrote:On August 26 2012 10:18 naastyOne wrote:On August 25 2012 18:46 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 18:37 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." I think that their goal is to carry Korean E-Sports a step forward globally, and they feel that GOM and all of the foreign tourneys have done this. KeSPA has made a lot of claims about wanting to open up, but everyone, even the players, are skeptical of that, with good reason to be. They are fighting not just for GOM, but for the KeSPA players, the foreign players, and the fans globally I think. Most of the fans support GOM and what they have done for the community, that includes the SC2 pro players it appears. This is just short sighted us vs them mentality. Consider what the scene has to lose by this. If the first OS2L ends up bombing because of this there's pretty much zero chance of the BW fanbase transitioning to SC2. If kespa can't transition then SC2 loses out on a massive amount of money and infrastructure. Dropping out doesn't benefit the fans or the players. I do not get it, how exactly are the BW fanbase and KeSPA transition related. The BW fanbase will need to become SC2 fanbase to be revelant, with or without KeSPA. The BW fanbase is not bolted to KeSPA. They can remain BW fanbase, or become SC2 fanbase or become neither. It is not about OSL, it is about people choices. On August 25 2012 18:46 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 18:40 Otak wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." Are you kidding? GomTv has been showing Starcraft 2 since 2010 and has done a very good job doing so. Kespa has recently started sc2 and now wants the monopoly on having ALL the big name players in one tournament. If you're too blinded to see that Kespa is just deliberately trying to shut GomTv out so that they become irrelevant again then I don't know what to say to you. And to be quite honest, I think in everyones mind, GSL is the premier sc2 tournament at the moment, not the Kespa league. And so what if GOM does end up becoming irrelevant? Did you ever stop to consider that SC2 might be better off under kespa? They bring far more to the table in terms of resources and potential for growth. This is nothing more then petty factionalism. In case you do not know, foreign SC2 scene has bigger(finantial) resourses than Korean scene anyway. I`m not sure how much the Korean scene is currently financed by money that foreigners bring in various ways(vievers for streams, sponsors, foreign events attendance), but i wouldn`t hesitate to call it very significant, if not major money source. KeSpa at this point is irrelevant. On August 26 2012 10:15 Severedevil wrote:On August 26 2012 10:05 ShatterZer0 wrote:
I don't understand why people seem to think KESPA is right on this...
They are being unreasonable in protecting their brand and should be willing to step onto an even playing field. Kespa players are still competing in Broodwar. It's not an even playing field. If I understand correctly, by GSL5 they'll have fully transitioned, but ESF are insisting they play GSL before then. If that would be the case, they wouldn`t play WCS, no? Maybe, they wouln`t even play SC2 OSL2, before full transitioning? Oh, wait, they actually do. a) The Korean fanbase may not be tied to keSPA, but they ARE tied to OGN. Without OGN, because MBC Game doesn't exist anymore, the vast majority of the Korean fanbase doesn't watch games. They watch Starcraft on TV, not on their computer. GOM only broadcasts on online streams. b) KeSPA absolutely has more money and resources than the foreign scene. They broadcast on television every week, unlimited broadcast time, put on the biggest events with the biggest crowds, and never charge a dime to watch content or attend live events. They have the biggest sponsors and their players make the most money outside of EG, and the stars make more than twice what even an EG player makes. c) They played in WCS because it was a Blizzard-sponsored event that was happening RIGHT THEN. Blizzard was a part of the eSports Vision conference, and participation in the WCS was probably a part of KESPA's contract to get broadcasting rights to SC2. Please keep facts in mind before spouting stuff. a. How did you figured? they should in fact have computers. b. Wrong. The TV vs internet is meaningless. Just look at SC2 scene Sponsors. Intel, AMD, LG, Red Bull, and a crapload of smaller sponsors. KeSpa sposor that can match that, is basically Samsung, and nothing more. Foreign scene has more vievers overall. You just need to add up all the streams with different languages. The Crowds, again are more about the scene being compact, and lokated in fan-dence Korea as opposed to spread out. The SC2 foreign scene has more teams than KeSPA, the wage of non-star players is better. Not to mention the number of SC2 events. MLG, IPL, Dreamhak, IEM, NASL, Homestory cup, WCS, many of which happen multiple times in one year, and I`m only counting the events that have at least comparable prise for winner (>10k). c. It is irrelevant they participated in SC2 tournament, so they were ready to participate in big SC2 events. Please, keep your fanboism out, and get the facts straight before posting. wat KT and SKT are like verizon or at&t in korea. CJ is like coca cola, if coke had their fingers in every single entertainment industry. i don't think you can compare any sc2 sponsor to kespa team sponsors also foreign scene pays like, 50 bucks a month to random shitty "pros." if you're actually a salaried pro with bonuses, you get paid a real wage. for instance, hiya when he was on lecaf said he got about 80-90k over 2 years plus bonuses for winning matches in proleague.
Important to note that rauk's post was edited well after this discussion took place (and is factually ignorant anyway).
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On August 26 2012 15:18 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 15:15 ShadeR wrote:You claim Just look at SC2 scene Sponsors. Intel, AMD, LG, Red Bull, and a crapload of smaller sponsors.
KeSpa sposor that can match that, is basically Samsung, and nothing more. rauk responds i don't think you can compare any sc2 sponsor to kespa team sponsors Basically he is calling you out on comparing apples with oranges. You are being intellectually dishonest when you say that KeSPA sponsors cannot match companies like Intel (because it is bigger). Just so this is clear. Intel AMD LG Redbull whatever they might be bigger companies, but the KESPA's sponsorship money is much much more than the SC2 sponsors money. Just because they're a bigger company doesn't mean they're shelling out as much for esports.
Unfortunately, without salary data for various teams and personalities in SC2, we can't definitively state that one way or the other.
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On August 26 2012 15:18 bo1b wrote:
I think it would be interesting to see some statistics of how much money is invested by each of the sponsors on either side.
Yes, it really would. We don't have any of that data, though. I wish we did.
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On August 26 2012 15:19 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 15:18 NoobSkills wrote:On August 26 2012 15:15 ShadeR wrote:You claim Just look at SC2 scene Sponsors. Intel, AMD, LG, Red Bull, and a crapload of smaller sponsors.
KeSpa sposor that can match that, is basically Samsung, and nothing more. rauk responds i don't think you can compare any sc2 sponsor to kespa team sponsors Basically he is calling you out on comparing apples with oranges. You are being intellectually dishonest when you say that KeSPA sponsors cannot match companies like Intel (because it is bigger). Just so this is clear. Intel AMD LG Redbull whatever they might be bigger companies, but the KESPA's sponsorship money is much much more than the SC2 sponsors money. Just because they're a bigger company doesn't mean they're shelling out as much for esports. Unfortunately, without salary data for various teams and personalities in SC2, we can't definitively state that one way or the other.
We don't need salary details, we already know most Korean teams are barely scraping by.
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"We don't need any data, we already know the sun orbits the earth."
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51387 Posts
today's sunday, as much as I would love to ague with people in this thread there won't be any updates today.
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On August 26 2012 15:22 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
"We don't need any data, we already know the sun orbits the earth."
love how after people responded to your "x and x sponsors are bigger and better, check their total asset and revenue" argument, you pull the "well we don't have the exactly money details" card. just admit you were wrong and move on.
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On August 26 2012 15:22 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
"We don't need any data, we already know the sun orbits the earth."
More like, "we don't need any data, we already know a new car is going to cost a lot."
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On August 26 2012 15:24 BLinD-RawR wrote:
today's sunday, as much as I would love to ague with people in this thread there won't be any updates today.
The osl starts in 2 days, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a meeting over the weekend.
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On August 26 2012 15:26 bucckevin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 15:22 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
"We don't need any data, we already know the sun orbits the earth." love how after people responded to your "x and x sponsors are bigger and better, check their total asset and revenue" argument, you pull the "well we don't have the exactly money details" card. just admit you were wrong and move on.
...But they ARE bigger sponsors, I don't know how you could dispute that. He never said that they were providing bigger sponsorships, nobody is trying to say that.
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EPT
