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On August 26 2012 04:37 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 04:33 Prplppleatr wrote:On August 26 2012 04:21 Sethronu wrote:
The saddest thing in all of this, which seems like everybody is missing, is that no matter how or when this drama might be resolved, there's absolutely no way it will be forgotten by either side, and you can be 100% sure that a honest and peaceful cooperation is completely out the window for at least a couple years. No way this is good for viewers. It's better than the alternative, GOM dieing. Why would that ever happen?
Worst-case scenario.
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United States23455 Posts
On August 26 2012 04:36 Prplppleatr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 04:00 Fionn wrote:
I expect KeSPA to fold sometime today or tomorrow. Would be stupid not to. They had possibly their best group selections of all-time, and Parting made himself out to be a new star with how well he was received by the audience. People want to see Baby/Parting, DRG/Jangbi, Nestea/Fantasy and the rest of the ESF/KeSPA matches. Throw in that they've already done photo shoots with the ESF players, probably finished their top notch opening video, and have the graphics all done, there is no reason they shouldn't just let their players try to qualify for Season 4 of Code A.
Shit, I bet if they wanted, Mr. Chae would give Roro a Code S seed for his impressive games in WCS Korea. They were going to give them 2 code s seeds, as well as up&down and code a seeds...8 total, i think.
Oh, then KeSPA will 100% take the offer. Would be petty and stupid not to.
Best way for KeSPA to beat GOM is for their players to win a Code S and dominate.
The big loser here is Alicia. Make three foreign finals, almost 100% a Code S seed, and then Chae promises two of them to KeSPA.
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On August 26 2012 04:40 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 04:37 oBlade wrote:On August 26 2012 04:33 Prplppleatr wrote:On August 26 2012 04:21 Sethronu wrote:
The saddest thing in all of this, which seems like everybody is missing, is that no matter how or when this drama might be resolved, there's absolutely no way it will be forgotten by either side, and you can be 100% sure that a honest and peaceful cooperation is completely out the window for at least a couple years. No way this is good for viewers. It's better than the alternative, GOM dieing. Why would that ever happen? Worst-case scenario.
The worst case scenario is the entire planet gets hit by a gamma ray burst. That doesn't make a gamma ray burst a logical consequence of the situation here. I specifically asked Prplppleatr why, as in what's the causal mechanism that produces a false dichotomy between a dead GOM and an at-each-others-throats future for KeSPA and GOM/ESF.
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All I can say is I know KeSPA isn't going to fold first.
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This is so sad
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This all thing is really sad. Kespa "didn"t get it" as Sundance the Wise would say. Kespa could make great things, try to link the international audience, find new big sponsors. This news shows they want to stay domestic only, try to kill the competition, they're now a burden when they could be the spark. I can't believe they're a public service/governmental agency. They certainly don't act like one.
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On August 26 2012 04:48 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 04:40 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 26 2012 04:37 oBlade wrote:On August 26 2012 04:33 Prplppleatr wrote:On August 26 2012 04:21 Sethronu wrote:
The saddest thing in all of this, which seems like everybody is missing, is that no matter how or when this drama might be resolved, there's absolutely no way it will be forgotten by either side, and you can be 100% sure that a honest and peaceful cooperation is completely out the window for at least a couple years. No way this is good for viewers. It's better than the alternative, GOM dieing. Why would that ever happen? Worst-case scenario. The worst case scenario is the entire planet gets hit by a gamma ray burst. That doesn't make a gamma ray burst a logical consequence of the situation here. I specifically asked Prplppleatr why, as in what's the causal mechanism that produces a false dichotomy between a dead GOM and an at-each-others-throats future for KeSPA and GOM/ESF.
Well, there's at LEAST TWO possibilities: Kespa and GOM continue business with lots more bad blood (Sethronu), or GOM goes under (Prplppleatr). From your post, I assume you are saying that possibility 2 (out of many other possibilities) is near ~0%? (I'm assuming that planet death from gamma ray burst is very low)
I definitely see a possibility of it happening if Kespa has their way with things.
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I think KeSPA is going to settle. They claimed not to know about the GSL seeding offers and if that's true I'd imagine they'd have thought twice about letting players participating had they known. At the very least I can see them budging a little bit to allow the teams already knocked out of PL to dabble in it. The whole scheduling excuse was crap and they know it, but it'd also go a long way if GOM set up a meeting to talk about the rescheduling they're so great at to get this all ironed out. Hopfully it all gets done soon, maybe to the point where they agree to meet about it to discuss the issue at a later date before GSL qualifiers so long as ESF players fill back into the OSL.
If the important parties in this really show they're making an effort to get it resolved the ESF players will probably come back to the table. It's really in the best interests of all parties to get it worked out as quickly as possible.
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On August 26 2012 04:13 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 04:00 Fionn wrote:
I expect KeSPA to fold sometime today or tomorrow. Would be stupid not to. They had possibly their best group selections of all-time, and Parting made himself out to be a new star with how well he was received by the audience. People want to see Baby/Parting, DRG/Jangbi, Nestea/Fantasy and the rest of the ESF/KeSPA matches. Throw in that they've already done photo shoots with the ESF players, probably finished their top notch opening video, and have the graphics all done, there is no reason they shouldn't just let their players try to qualify for Season 4 of Code A.
Shit, I bet if they wanted, Mr. Chae would give Roro a Code S seed for his impressive games in WCS Korea. Probably the wisest compromise would look something like, submit the players who don't have playoffs to GSL4 qualifiers, with the understanding that teams in the playoffs (who should not be in GSL4) will receive some seeds into Code S and Code A. Really, it's absurd to think Kespa would place the qualifiers for the qualifying tournament for the GSL at a priority resembling that of their flagship, the Proleague.
My friend, GOM said they can move the qualifiers to suit ex bw players better...if that is not enough then nothing is enough for kespa!
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The seeds make a huge difference; if GOM lets Kespa pick which 8 players get seeds, there's no reason not to at least let those 8 play, which -- if folks are reasonable -- would settle the whole matter.
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Has anyone considered that a divided Korea might actually benefit ... the foreign scene? (raises eyebrow)
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On August 26 2012 05:01 Severedevil wrote:
The seeds make a huge difference; if GOM lets Kespa pick which 8 players get seeds, there's no reason not to at least let those 8 play, which -- if folks are reasonable -- would settle the whole matter.
That's not enough imo, they need to allow all players to have the ability to compete in the GSL. Of course the players dealing with the playoffs would choose not to, and you have the others playing in the GSL qualifiers.
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On August 26 2012 04:55 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 04:48 oBlade wrote:On August 26 2012 04:40 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 26 2012 04:37 oBlade wrote:On August 26 2012 04:33 Prplppleatr wrote:On August 26 2012 04:21 Sethronu wrote:
The saddest thing in all of this, which seems like everybody is missing, is that no matter how or when this drama might be resolved, there's absolutely no way it will be forgotten by either side, and you can be 100% sure that a honest and peaceful cooperation is completely out the window for at least a couple years. No way this is good for viewers. It's better than the alternative, GOM dieing. Why would that ever happen? Worst-case scenario. The worst case scenario is the entire planet gets hit by a gamma ray burst. That doesn't make a gamma ray burst a logical consequence of the situation here. I specifically asked Prplppleatr why, as in what's the causal mechanism that produces a false dichotomy between a dead GOM and an at-each-others-throats future for KeSPA and GOM/ESF. Well, there's at LEAST TWO possibilities: Kespa and GOM continue business with lots more bad blood (Sethronu), or GOM goes under (Prplppleatr). From your post, I assume you are saying that possibility 2 (out of many other possibilities) is near ~0%? (I'm assuming that planet death from gamma ray burst is very low) I definitely see a possibility of it happening if Kespa has their way with things.
It's all well and good to say "I like the GOM I have and I am afraid of losing it," but it's no dice if you can't show why that would ever happen.
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On August 25 2012 21:53 Twinkle Toes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:50 boag11 wrote:On August 25 2012 21:36 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 21:32 mrjpark wrote:On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote:
BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you. It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something. No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier. Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing. On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want. ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that. You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then. More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever. If the NBA/NFL/MLB decided to just run without a player's union, do you think people would just sit down and take it? I mean, there's really nowhere else to go that gives a decent wage, so the owners technically have all the leverage. Without the unions, the players would be treated like crap. Due to lack of any real alternatives, that was the situation for Brood War. The players had to either put up with KeSPA's bullshit or find another career. Now that StarCraft has been globalized, this is no longer the case and the ESF has become the player's union for Korean SC2. Now, KeSPA's back in the picture trying to get the upper hand once more. In terms of pure business perspective, this is fine. Until you realize that once they're back in power, the players lose their voice once more and we've time traveled into the past where workers had no rights. All these players that are influential in the ESF? They're all ex-KeSPA B teamers. They've all been there and done that. They know what they're up against, and they're sure as hell not letting it permeate the Korean eSports scene again. Would KeSPA kill eSports? Probably not. But that has nothing to do with the fact that right now, the ESF is protecting not only their own careers, but the careers of their KeSPA friends; players from the BW teams that have no voice of their own. When unions hold strikes, it's obviously "stupid". From a pure business standpoint, they're obviously in the wrong. I mean, they have contracts with their employees and they should just grind it out. But sometimes, you need to fight for something, and the ESF thinks this is worth it. In the long run, the ESF running things is better for global eSports, while KeSPA may be able to run Korean eSports better in the short term. Your opinion seems to be one that completely disregards the players. Sure, you'll still get your games and they'll probably be good no matter who comes out on top. But obviously, the players are a bit more emotionally/financially involved in this than you are and are willing to fight for their futures. Do you seriously think ESF represents the players here? They're nothing more than GOM's lapdogs. The only thing they're protecting is the GSL. Do you seriously think ESF doesnt represents the players here? They're definitely not nothing more then GOM's lapdogs. The only thing they're protecting is themselves. See what I did there? Why is it so hard for you to believe that ESF is doing all this to protect themselves and their futures from Kespa. Who for the last 10 years have oppressed their own progamers A 9-post user who registered January 2012 commenting on how Kespa "oppressed their own progamers" wow
You joined in May, so you must know absolutely nothing then according to your logic.
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On August 26 2012 05:05 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 04:55 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 26 2012 04:48 oBlade wrote:On August 26 2012 04:40 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 26 2012 04:37 oBlade wrote:On August 26 2012 04:33 Prplppleatr wrote:On August 26 2012 04:21 Sethronu wrote:
The saddest thing in all of this, which seems like everybody is missing, is that no matter how or when this drama might be resolved, there's absolutely no way it will be forgotten by either side, and you can be 100% sure that a honest and peaceful cooperation is completely out the window for at least a couple years. No way this is good for viewers. It's better than the alternative, GOM dieing. Why would that ever happen? Worst-case scenario. The worst case scenario is the entire planet gets hit by a gamma ray burst. That doesn't make a gamma ray burst a logical consequence of the situation here. I specifically asked Prplppleatr why, as in what's the causal mechanism that produces a false dichotomy between a dead GOM and an at-each-others-throats future for KeSPA and GOM/ESF. Well, there's at LEAST TWO possibilities: Kespa and GOM continue business with lots more bad blood (Sethronu), or GOM goes under (Prplppleatr). From your post, I assume you are saying that possibility 2 (out of many other possibilities) is near ~0%? (I'm assuming that planet death from gamma ray burst is very low) I definitely see a possibility of it happening if Kespa has their way with things. It's all well and good to say "I like the GOM I have and I am afraid of losing it," but it's no dice if you can't show why that would ever happen.
I wish Prplppleatr would return to this thread to answer you.
I guess he's just trying to be optimistic (in a weird way) to Sethronu's gloomy post.
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On August 26 2012 04:24 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 04:21 Sethronu wrote:
The saddest thing in all of this, which seems like everybody is missing, is that no matter how or when this drama might be resolved, there's absolutely no way it will be forgotten by either side, and you can be 100% sure that a honest and peaceful cooperation is completely out the window for at least a couple years. No way this is good for viewers. It would have never been in the first place. At the end of the day, an organization like KeSPA is always looking out for themselves. I can same the same for practically anything, the NHL and their shareholders versus the NHLPA. You name it. The list goes on and on. At the end of the day when you take out all the fluff what does it really come down to? Money. Dollar dollar bill y'all.
You do realize that KeSPA is a non-profit organization that puts all the money they make back into the teams and thus into the players' and coaches' pockets, right? :/ Of course they want to get more money, but so does every other company out there. It's pretty unfair to accuse them of being 'out to get more dolla' as if other teams and companies out there aren't doing the same, especially when so many people here are talking about 'players conditions' and how eSF should 'fight to improve progamers' living'...
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On August 26 2012 05:16 Sethronu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 04:24 StarStruck wrote:On August 26 2012 04:21 Sethronu wrote:
The saddest thing in all of this, which seems like everybody is missing, is that no matter how or when this drama might be resolved, there's absolutely no way it will be forgotten by either side, and you can be 100% sure that a honest and peaceful cooperation is completely out the window for at least a couple years. No way this is good for viewers. It would have never been in the first place. At the end of the day, an organization like KeSPA is always looking out for themselves. I can same the same for practically anything, the NHL and their shareholders versus the NHLPA. You name it. The list goes on and on. At the end of the day when you take out all the fluff what does it really come down to? Money. Dollar dollar bill y'all. You do realize that KeSPA is a non-profit organization that puts all the money they make back into the teams and thus into the players' and coaches' pockets, right? :/ Of course they want to get more money, but so does every other company out there. It's pretty unfair to accuse them of being 'out to get more dolla' as if other teams and companies out there aren't doing the same, especially when so many people here are talking about 'players conditions' and how eSF should 'fight to improve progamers' living'...
For them to improve progamers' living they'd need KeSPA to first stop dictating everything they do.
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The most recent ITG had some interesting comments about what it's like to be a non-A-teamer in a Kespa-affiliated house. Worth listening to.
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EPT
