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On August 26 2012 01:23 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 01:21 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:13 pencil_ethics wrote:
To explain all this from a business perspective...
GOMTV Classic: New competing firm (Gretech) on the market, the big CARTEL (KeSPA) with its monopoly in players and $$$ basically decides to force it out of existence. In the business world they would call this anticompetitive and using market power to crush the little players: in fact business cartels are ILLEGAL. And I thought this was frowned upon. Guess not...
Current scenario: Same firm that got forcefully evicted from that other market now is the pioneer in this market. The cartel begs to gain entry and gets it, but tips its hand showing ambitions to use its power to turn the competitor's product into an inferior one to kill the smaller firm AGAIN. Those with an indirect stake in the smaller firm (eSF: note they don't own Gretech) decide to fight the cartel.
Now of course eSF != Gretech (under the current structure I believe Gretech is not represented in eSF), but Ongamenet is much closer to KeSPA (they have a seat on the strategy board at the very least, and its parent CJ is - surprise - a KeSPA member firm). Anyone who has been following the BW scene for a reasonable amount of time knows how much KeSPA has stifled the growth of even the Korean scene by keeping this artificial pro/amateur divide and using this to bully their own players into compliance. Also, KeSPA DID NOT create the Korean BW scene. It started as a grassroots thing from within Internet cafes. Big money came along and decided to swallow it whole. This is in fact a SOCIAL ISSUE in Korea, as the chaebol have far too much leverage over little firms (vertical/horizontal integration, monopsony, $$$, you name it).
tl;dr: Big guy trying to kill little guy. Succeeded once, now clearly trying again. Those with a stake in little guy decide to fight.
Monopolies and cartels are bad. Why is anyone rooting for the big guy here? So the NFL, NBA, NHL, FIFA, etc are monopolies and cartels too? I don't think it can be argued that they are monopolies. Having said that, the players that participate in events run by those organizations have player unions.
They didn't have player unions when those professional sports were nascent, like how e-sports is now.
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Just because you are new to esports doesn't mean esports is new, especially in Korea
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On August 26 2012 01:26 attackmoveftw wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 01:23 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 01:21 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:13 pencil_ethics wrote:
To explain all this from a business perspective...
GOMTV Classic: New competing firm (Gretech) on the market, the big CARTEL (KeSPA) with its monopoly in players and $$$ basically decides to force it out of existence. In the business world they would call this anticompetitive and using market power to crush the little players: in fact business cartels are ILLEGAL. And I thought this was frowned upon. Guess not...
Current scenario: Same firm that got forcefully evicted from that other market now is the pioneer in this market. The cartel begs to gain entry and gets it, but tips its hand showing ambitions to use its power to turn the competitor's product into an inferior one to kill the smaller firm AGAIN. Those with an indirect stake in the smaller firm (eSF: note they don't own Gretech) decide to fight the cartel.
Now of course eSF != Gretech (under the current structure I believe Gretech is not represented in eSF), but Ongamenet is much closer to KeSPA (they have a seat on the strategy board at the very least, and its parent CJ is - surprise - a KeSPA member firm). Anyone who has been following the BW scene for a reasonable amount of time knows how much KeSPA has stifled the growth of even the Korean scene by keeping this artificial pro/amateur divide and using this to bully their own players into compliance. Also, KeSPA DID NOT create the Korean BW scene. It started as a grassroots thing from within Internet cafes. Big money came along and decided to swallow it whole. This is in fact a SOCIAL ISSUE in Korea, as the chaebol have far too much leverage over little firms (vertical/horizontal integration, monopsony, $$$, you name it).
tl;dr: Big guy trying to kill little guy. Succeeded once, now clearly trying again. Those with a stake in little guy decide to fight.
Monopolies and cartels are bad. Why is anyone rooting for the big guy here? So the NFL, NBA, NHL, FIFA, etc are monopolies and cartels too? I don't think it can be argued that they are monopolies. Having said that, the players that participate in events run by those organizations have player unions. They didn't have player unions when those professional sports were nascent, like how e-sports is now.
And it's becoming quite clear that's a problem. Hence Boxer and Stork wanting a players union to deal with Kespa.
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On August 26 2012 01:15 Salazarz wrote:
Except you've got the history part completely wrong, and are making assumptions about current goals of KeSPA based on speculations stemming out of false facts.
The GOMTV Classic was killed after 3 seasons because it was never a KeSPA sanctioned event and all KeSPA teams eventually boycotted it. The history is not wrong: many tournaments predate the first Starleague for which records no longer exist, well before KeSPA was even conceived and chaebols took over team ownership. The current scenario does involve some speculation yes, but given prior behaviour is it unreasonable to assume that history will repeat given what has happened previously and what is currently happening? Common sense would say no.
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On August 26 2012 01:21 attackmoveftw wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 01:13 pencil_ethics wrote:
To explain all this from a business perspective...
GOMTV Classic: New competing firm (Gretech) on the market, the big CARTEL (KeSPA) with its monopoly in players and $$$ basically decides to force it out of existence. In the business world they would call this anticompetitive and using market power to crush the little players: in fact business cartels are ILLEGAL. And I thought this was frowned upon. Guess not...
Current scenario: Same firm that got forcefully evicted from that other market now is the pioneer in this market. The cartel begs to gain entry and gets it, but tips its hand showing ambitions to use its power to turn the competitor's product into an inferior one to kill the smaller firm AGAIN. Those with an indirect stake in the smaller firm (eSF: note they don't own Gretech) decide to fight the cartel.
Now of course eSF != Gretech (under the current structure I believe Gretech is not represented in eSF), but Ongamenet is much closer to KeSPA (they have a seat on the strategy board at the very least, and its parent CJ is - surprise - a KeSPA member firm). Anyone who has been following the BW scene for a reasonable amount of time knows how much KeSPA has stifled the growth of even the Korean scene by keeping this artificial pro/amateur divide and using this to bully their own players into compliance. Also, KeSPA DID NOT create the Korean BW scene. It started as a grassroots thing from within Internet cafes. Big money came along and decided to swallow it whole. This is in fact a SOCIAL ISSUE in Korea, as the chaebol have far too much leverage over little firms (vertical/horizontal integration, monopsony, $$$, you name it).
tl;dr: Big guy trying to kill little guy. Succeeded once, now clearly trying again. Those with a stake in little guy decide to fight.
Monopolies and cartels are bad. Why is anyone rooting for the big guy here? So the NFL, NBA, NHL, FIFA, etc are monopolies and cartels too?
In fifa's case yes, a terrible organisation.
Anyway this will resolve itself eventually with some tournament forming where all the best players compete. Everyone wants that so it will happen, just a matter of how long before it happens.
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On August 26 2012 01:17 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 01:15 Salazarz wrote:On August 26 2012 01:13 pencil_ethics wrote:
To explain all this from a business perspective...
GOMTV Classic: New competing firm (Gretech) on the market, the big CARTEL (KeSPA) with its monopoly in players and $$$ basically decides to force it out of existence. In the business world they would call this anticompetitive and using market power to crush the little players: in fact business cartels are ILLEGAL. And I thought this was frowned upon. Guess not...
Current scenario: Same firm that got forcefully evicted from that other market now is the pioneer in this market. The cartel begs to gain entry and gets it, but tips its hand showing ambitions to use its power to turn the competitor's product into an inferior one to kill the smaller firm AGAIN. Those with an indirect stake in the smaller firm (eSF: note they don't own Gretech) decide to fight the cartel.
Now of course eSF != Gretech (under the current structure I believe Gretech is not represented in eSF), but Ongamenet is much closer to KeSPA (they have a seat on the strategy board at the very least, and its parent CJ is - surprise - a KeSPA member firm). Anyone who has been following the BW scene for a reasonable amount of time knows how much KeSPA has stifled the growth of even the Korean scene by keeping this artificial pro/amateur divide and using this to bully their own players into compliance. Also, KeSPA DID NOT create the Korean BW scene. It started as a grassroots thing from within Internet cafes. Big money came along and decided to swallow it whole. This is in fact a SOCIAL ISSUE in Korea, as the chaebol have far too much leverage over little firms (vertical/horizontal integration, monopsony, $$$, you name it).
tl;dr: Big guy trying to kill little guy. Succeeded once, now clearly trying again. Those with a stake in little guy decide to fight.
Monopolies and cartels are bad. Why is anyone rooting for the big guy here? Except you've got the history part completely wrong, and are making assumptions about current goals of KeSPA based on speculations stemming out of false facts. Your saying that starcraft tournaments didn't start in internet cafes before kespa existed?
No, but they would never reach the heights they did without some kind of a unified organization. Also, the part about KeSPA 'forcing' GomTV out is bullshit, and the whole thing about KeSPA 'stifling' the growth of BW scene is laughable. Big money came along because people invested into it, not because it was profitable so they took over.
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On August 26 2012 01:26 attackmoveftw wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 01:23 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 01:21 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:13 pencil_ethics wrote:
To explain all this from a business perspective...
GOMTV Classic: New competing firm (Gretech) on the market, the big CARTEL (KeSPA) with its monopoly in players and $$$ basically decides to force it out of existence. In the business world they would call this anticompetitive and using market power to crush the little players: in fact business cartels are ILLEGAL. And I thought this was frowned upon. Guess not...
Current scenario: Same firm that got forcefully evicted from that other market now is the pioneer in this market. The cartel begs to gain entry and gets it, but tips its hand showing ambitions to use its power to turn the competitor's product into an inferior one to kill the smaller firm AGAIN. Those with an indirect stake in the smaller firm (eSF: note they don't own Gretech) decide to fight the cartel.
Now of course eSF != Gretech (under the current structure I believe Gretech is not represented in eSF), but Ongamenet is much closer to KeSPA (they have a seat on the strategy board at the very least, and its parent CJ is - surprise - a KeSPA member firm). Anyone who has been following the BW scene for a reasonable amount of time knows how much KeSPA has stifled the growth of even the Korean scene by keeping this artificial pro/amateur divide and using this to bully their own players into compliance. Also, KeSPA DID NOT create the Korean BW scene. It started as a grassroots thing from within Internet cafes. Big money came along and decided to swallow it whole. This is in fact a SOCIAL ISSUE in Korea, as the chaebol have far too much leverage over little firms (vertical/horizontal integration, monopsony, $$$, you name it).
tl;dr: Big guy trying to kill little guy. Succeeded once, now clearly trying again. Those with a stake in little guy decide to fight.
Monopolies and cartels are bad. Why is anyone rooting for the big guy here? So the NFL, NBA, NHL, FIFA, etc are monopolies and cartels too? I don't think it can be argued that they are monopolies. Having said that, the players that participate in events run by those organizations have player unions. They didn't have player unions when those professional sports were nascent, like how e-sports is now.
I doubt many companies had to worry about unions 100 years ago, but yeah man I can see how that's a legit point.
Jk its fucking stupid, and their are very good reasons that unions exist.
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On August 26 2012 01:22 Weirdkid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 01:20 6NR wrote:
I think Kespa already announcing the "Big Event" will clear a lot of air. I think this process is necessary because it makes the different and often contending parties align their interests for a common goal. It will be painful, but we have to undergo this. Any link to the original article talking about this "Big Event"?
Please check the links in the OP. It's somewhere there.
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On August 26 2012 01:28 pencil_ethics wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 01:15 Salazarz wrote:
Except you've got the history part completely wrong, and are making assumptions about current goals of KeSPA based on speculations stemming out of false facts. The GOMTV Classic was killed after 3 seasons because it was never a KeSPA sanctioned event and all KeSPA teams eventually boycotted it. The history is not wrong: many tournaments predate the first Starleague for which records no longer exist, well before KeSPA was even conceived and chaebols took over team ownership. The current scenario does involve some speculation yes, but given prior behaviour is it unreasonable to assume that history will repeat given what has happened previously and what is currently happening? Common sense would say no.
The GomTV Classic was 'killed' because players didn't WANT TO participate in it, on top of the whole Blizzard thing. It doesn't even make sense for KeSPA to 'kill' GomTV - their money comes from sponsors, which is directly related to fan viewer numbers. If they could have more leagues and more views without sacrificing the integrity of the main scene, why wouldn't they want to?
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On August 26 2012 01:29 6NR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 01:22 Weirdkid wrote:On August 26 2012 01:20 6NR wrote:
I think Kespa already announcing the "Big Event" will clear a lot of air. I think this process is necessary because it makes the different and often contending parties align their interests for a common goal. It will be painful, but we have to undergo this. Any link to the original article talking about this "Big Event"? Please check the links in the OP. It's somewhere there.
Can you access the link? Coz I can't. Maybe it's my internet issue haha.
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On August 26 2012 01:21 attackmoveftw wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 01:13 pencil_ethics wrote:
To explain all this from a business perspective...
GOMTV Classic: New competing firm (Gretech) on the market, the big CARTEL (KeSPA) with its monopoly in players and $$$ basically decides to force it out of existence. In the business world they would call this anticompetitive and using market power to crush the little players: in fact business cartels are ILLEGAL. And I thought this was frowned upon. Guess not...
Current scenario: Same firm that got forcefully evicted from that other market now is the pioneer in this market. The cartel begs to gain entry and gets it, but tips its hand showing ambitions to use its power to turn the competitor's product into an inferior one to kill the smaller firm AGAIN. Those with an indirect stake in the smaller firm (eSF: note they don't own Gretech) decide to fight the cartel.
Now of course eSF != Gretech (under the current structure I believe Gretech is not represented in eSF), but Ongamenet is much closer to KeSPA (they have a seat on the strategy board at the very least, and its parent CJ is - surprise - a KeSPA member firm). Anyone who has been following the BW scene for a reasonable amount of time knows how much KeSPA has stifled the growth of even the Korean scene by keeping this artificial pro/amateur divide and using this to bully their own players into compliance. Also, KeSPA DID NOT create the Korean BW scene. It started as a grassroots thing from within Internet cafes. Big money came along and decided to swallow it whole. This is in fact a SOCIAL ISSUE in Korea, as the chaebol have far too much leverage over little firms (vertical/horizontal integration, monopsony, $$$, you name it).
tl;dr: Big guy trying to kill little guy. Succeeded once, now clearly trying again. Those with a stake in little guy decide to fight.
Monopolies and cartels are bad. Why is anyone rooting for the big guy here? So the NFL, NBA, NHL, FIFA, etc are monopolies and cartels too?
Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them.
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On August 26 2012 01:31 Ysellian wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 01:21 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:13 pencil_ethics wrote:
To explain all this from a business perspective...
GOMTV Classic: New competing firm (Gretech) on the market, the big CARTEL (KeSPA) with its monopoly in players and $$$ basically decides to force it out of existence. In the business world they would call this anticompetitive and using market power to crush the little players: in fact business cartels are ILLEGAL. And I thought this was frowned upon. Guess not...
Current scenario: Same firm that got forcefully evicted from that other market now is the pioneer in this market. The cartel begs to gain entry and gets it, but tips its hand showing ambitions to use its power to turn the competitor's product into an inferior one to kill the smaller firm AGAIN. Those with an indirect stake in the smaller firm (eSF: note they don't own Gretech) decide to fight the cartel.
Now of course eSF != Gretech (under the current structure I believe Gretech is not represented in eSF), but Ongamenet is much closer to KeSPA (they have a seat on the strategy board at the very least, and its parent CJ is - surprise - a KeSPA member firm). Anyone who has been following the BW scene for a reasonable amount of time knows how much KeSPA has stifled the growth of even the Korean scene by keeping this artificial pro/amateur divide and using this to bully their own players into compliance. Also, KeSPA DID NOT create the Korean BW scene. It started as a grassroots thing from within Internet cafes. Big money came along and decided to swallow it whole. This is in fact a SOCIAL ISSUE in Korea, as the chaebol have far too much leverage over little firms (vertical/horizontal integration, monopsony, $$$, you name it).
tl;dr: Big guy trying to kill little guy. Succeeded once, now clearly trying again. Those with a stake in little guy decide to fight.
Monopolies and cartels are bad. Why is anyone rooting for the big guy here? So the NFL, NBA, NHL, FIFA, etc are monopolies and cartels too? Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them.
And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws.
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On August 26 2012 01:29 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 01:26 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:23 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 01:21 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:13 pencil_ethics wrote:
To explain all this from a business perspective...
GOMTV Classic: New competing firm (Gretech) on the market, the big CARTEL (KeSPA) with its monopoly in players and $$$ basically decides to force it out of existence. In the business world they would call this anticompetitive and using market power to crush the little players: in fact business cartels are ILLEGAL. And I thought this was frowned upon. Guess not...
Current scenario: Same firm that got forcefully evicted from that other market now is the pioneer in this market. The cartel begs to gain entry and gets it, but tips its hand showing ambitions to use its power to turn the competitor's product into an inferior one to kill the smaller firm AGAIN. Those with an indirect stake in the smaller firm (eSF: note they don't own Gretech) decide to fight the cartel.
Now of course eSF != Gretech (under the current structure I believe Gretech is not represented in eSF), but Ongamenet is much closer to KeSPA (they have a seat on the strategy board at the very least, and its parent CJ is - surprise - a KeSPA member firm). Anyone who has been following the BW scene for a reasonable amount of time knows how much KeSPA has stifled the growth of even the Korean scene by keeping this artificial pro/amateur divide and using this to bully their own players into compliance. Also, KeSPA DID NOT create the Korean BW scene. It started as a grassroots thing from within Internet cafes. Big money came along and decided to swallow it whole. This is in fact a SOCIAL ISSUE in Korea, as the chaebol have far too much leverage over little firms (vertical/horizontal integration, monopsony, $$$, you name it).
tl;dr: Big guy trying to kill little guy. Succeeded once, now clearly trying again. Those with a stake in little guy decide to fight.
Monopolies and cartels are bad. Why is anyone rooting for the big guy here? So the NFL, NBA, NHL, FIFA, etc are monopolies and cartels too? I don't think it can be argued that they are monopolies. Having said that, the players that participate in events run by those organizations have player unions. They didn't have player unions when those professional sports were nascent, like how e-sports is now. I doubt many companies had to worry about unions 100 years ago, but yeah man I can see how that's a legit point. Jk its fucking stupid, and their are very good reasons that unions exist.
Well, I think the player unions only got established after the sports in question were raking in the money and none of it trickled down to the players. But with e-sports, teams are barely making ends meet and many disband due to lack of funds.
The thing with the sports and entertainment industry is that only a few make it big and the rest starve. Like all the Koreans that try to get into SM. Only a few become like SNSD and the rest, we never hear about.
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Looks like KeSPA is getting pushed around a little, assuming this ends well this will probably be good for eSports.
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On August 25 2012 18:42 Zhalad wrote:
Was looking forward to the OSL so much, but 100% support for ESF here.
This. Sucks it has to go down like this, but in the long run it's good for the scene to keep KeSPA from getting to big for its britches.
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On August 26 2012 01:30 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 01:28 pencil_ethics wrote:On August 26 2012 01:15 Salazarz wrote:
Except you've got the history part completely wrong, and are making assumptions about current goals of KeSPA based on speculations stemming out of false facts. The GOMTV Classic was killed after 3 seasons because it was never a KeSPA sanctioned event and all KeSPA teams eventually boycotted it. The history is not wrong: many tournaments predate the first Starleague for which records no longer exist, well before KeSPA was even conceived and chaebols took over team ownership. The current scenario does involve some speculation yes, but given prior behaviour is it unreasonable to assume that history will repeat given what has happened previously and what is currently happening? Common sense would say no. The GomTV Classic was 'killed' because players didn't WANT TO participate in it, on top of the whole Blizzard thing. It doesn't even make sense for KeSPA to 'kill' GomTV - their money comes from sponsors, which is directly related to fan viewer numbers. If they could have more leagues and more views without sacrificing the integrity of the main scene, why wouldn't they want to?
I humbly request a source for players actively expressing their unwillingness to participate in the Classic.
No, I don't want coaches' interviews, I want the players' interviews.
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On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 01:31 Ysellian wrote:On August 26 2012 01:21 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:13 pencil_ethics wrote:
To explain all this from a business perspective...
GOMTV Classic: New competing firm (Gretech) on the market, the big CARTEL (KeSPA) with its monopoly in players and $$$ basically decides to force it out of existence. In the business world they would call this anticompetitive and using market power to crush the little players: in fact business cartels are ILLEGAL. And I thought this was frowned upon. Guess not...
Current scenario: Same firm that got forcefully evicted from that other market now is the pioneer in this market. The cartel begs to gain entry and gets it, but tips its hand showing ambitions to use its power to turn the competitor's product into an inferior one to kill the smaller firm AGAIN. Those with an indirect stake in the smaller firm (eSF: note they don't own Gretech) decide to fight the cartel.
Now of course eSF != Gretech (under the current structure I believe Gretech is not represented in eSF), but Ongamenet is much closer to KeSPA (they have a seat on the strategy board at the very least, and its parent CJ is - surprise - a KeSPA member firm). Anyone who has been following the BW scene for a reasonable amount of time knows how much KeSPA has stifled the growth of even the Korean scene by keeping this artificial pro/amateur divide and using this to bully their own players into compliance. Also, KeSPA DID NOT create the Korean BW scene. It started as a grassroots thing from within Internet cafes. Big money came along and decided to swallow it whole. This is in fact a SOCIAL ISSUE in Korea, as the chaebol have far too much leverage over little firms (vertical/horizontal integration, monopsony, $$$, you name it).
tl;dr: Big guy trying to kill little guy. Succeeded once, now clearly trying again. Those with a stake in little guy decide to fight.
Monopolies and cartels are bad. Why is anyone rooting for the big guy here? So the NFL, NBA, NHL, FIFA, etc are monopolies and cartels too? Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them. And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws.
Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have...
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BW envy is palpable. Watching it all burn.
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On August 26 2012 01:38 marcelluspye wrote:
Looks like KeSPA is getting pushed around a little, assuming this ends well this will probably be good for eSports.
I'm just worried. You know one of the moves Kespa now has and can present with some decent PR is "due to the immaturity of the eSF we are going back into our shell fuck off".
But yes, if eSF playing hardball works, I will be satisfied.
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On August 25 2012 21:10 Kergy wrote:
Only one, ACE players cannot leave the country because they're on military service.
I guess that should make Japan feel safer 
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EPT
