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On August 26 2012 01:47 Bippzy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 01:38 marcelluspye wrote:
Looks like KeSPA is getting pushed around a little, assuming this ends well this will probably be good for eSports. I'm just worried. You know one of the moves Kespa now has and can present with some decent PR is "due to the immaturity of the eSF we are going back into our shell fuck off". But yes, if eSF playing hardball works, I will be satisfied.
Then Blizz will start pressuring them, unless KeSPA is planning to abandon SC2.
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KeSPA better at least offer players from teams eliminated from the playoffs. It'd be a small thing to save the OSL.
A part of me wants to see this battle continue - anticlimatic for biggest 'antagonist' in esports to capitulate now - but KeSPA doesn't have any sane choice in the matter.
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On August 26 2012 01:40 pencil_ethics wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:31 Ysellian wrote:On August 26 2012 01:21 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:13 pencil_ethics wrote:
To explain all this from a business perspective...
GOMTV Classic: New competing firm (Gretech) on the market, the big CARTEL (KeSPA) with its monopoly in players and $$$ basically decides to force it out of existence. In the business world they would call this anticompetitive and using market power to crush the little players: in fact business cartels are ILLEGAL. And I thought this was frowned upon. Guess not...
Current scenario: Same firm that got forcefully evicted from that other market now is the pioneer in this market. The cartel begs to gain entry and gets it, but tips its hand showing ambitions to use its power to turn the competitor's product into an inferior one to kill the smaller firm AGAIN. Those with an indirect stake in the smaller firm (eSF: note they don't own Gretech) decide to fight the cartel.
Now of course eSF != Gretech (under the current structure I believe Gretech is not represented in eSF), but Ongamenet is much closer to KeSPA (they have a seat on the strategy board at the very least, and its parent CJ is - surprise - a KeSPA member firm). Anyone who has been following the BW scene for a reasonable amount of time knows how much KeSPA has stifled the growth of even the Korean scene by keeping this artificial pro/amateur divide and using this to bully their own players into compliance. Also, KeSPA DID NOT create the Korean BW scene. It started as a grassroots thing from within Internet cafes. Big money came along and decided to swallow it whole. This is in fact a SOCIAL ISSUE in Korea, as the chaebol have far too much leverage over little firms (vertical/horizontal integration, monopsony, $$$, you name it).
tl;dr: Big guy trying to kill little guy. Succeeded once, now clearly trying again. Those with a stake in little guy decide to fight.
Monopolies and cartels are bad. Why is anyone rooting for the big guy here? So the NFL, NBA, NHL, FIFA, etc are monopolies and cartels too? Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them. And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws. Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have...
Are we really arguing Kespa players get financially screwed now despite many GSL players not even getting salaries and none of them getting anything close to top Kespa salary? if anything the ESF trying to lock up these players in the interest of the teams, the trade embargo, etc all work against players far more than anything Kespa has done as of yet.
What if hypothetically there's a player a Kespa team wants to pay big money for, like MMA, but they can't because of the trade embargo put in place? This is fair in your eyes?
Or how about the first team organisation Korean SC2 teams tried to put in place to stop foreign teams from buying their players, even though they would get better salaries, better support in travelling to foreign events, etc?
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Has Blizz said anything yet? They never were a timely company.
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On August 26 2012 01:52 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 01:40 pencil_ethics wrote:On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:31 Ysellian wrote:On August 26 2012 01:21 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:13 pencil_ethics wrote:
To explain all this from a business perspective...
GOMTV Classic: New competing firm (Gretech) on the market, the big CARTEL (KeSPA) with its monopoly in players and $$$ basically decides to force it out of existence. In the business world they would call this anticompetitive and using market power to crush the little players: in fact business cartels are ILLEGAL. And I thought this was frowned upon. Guess not...
Current scenario: Same firm that got forcefully evicted from that other market now is the pioneer in this market. The cartel begs to gain entry and gets it, but tips its hand showing ambitions to use its power to turn the competitor's product into an inferior one to kill the smaller firm AGAIN. Those with an indirect stake in the smaller firm (eSF: note they don't own Gretech) decide to fight the cartel.
Now of course eSF != Gretech (under the current structure I believe Gretech is not represented in eSF), but Ongamenet is much closer to KeSPA (they have a seat on the strategy board at the very least, and its parent CJ is - surprise - a KeSPA member firm). Anyone who has been following the BW scene for a reasonable amount of time knows how much KeSPA has stifled the growth of even the Korean scene by keeping this artificial pro/amateur divide and using this to bully their own players into compliance. Also, KeSPA DID NOT create the Korean BW scene. It started as a grassroots thing from within Internet cafes. Big money came along and decided to swallow it whole. This is in fact a SOCIAL ISSUE in Korea, as the chaebol have far too much leverage over little firms (vertical/horizontal integration, monopsony, $$$, you name it).
tl;dr: Big guy trying to kill little guy. Succeeded once, now clearly trying again. Those with a stake in little guy decide to fight.
Monopolies and cartels are bad. Why is anyone rooting for the big guy here? So the NFL, NBA, NHL, FIFA, etc are monopolies and cartels too? Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them. And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws. Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have... Are we really arguing Kespa players get financially screwed now despite many GSL players not even getting salaries and none of them getting anything close to top Kespa salary? if anything the ESF trying to lock up these players in the interest of the teams, the trade embargo, etc all work against players far more than anything Kespa has done as of yet. What if hypothetically there's a player a Kespa team wants to pay big money for, like MMA, but they can't because of the trade embargo put in place? This is fair in your eyes? Or how about the first team organisation Korean SC2 teams tried to put in place to stop foreign teams from buying their players, even though they would get better salaries, better support in travelling to foreign events, etc?
That first organisation was shut down with good reason. And is it really fair to compare salary instead of income? There seems to be a ton more prize money in sc2.
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This matchup heavily favours ESF at the moment, looks like they are both setting up for the macro game however..
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On August 26 2012 00:47 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 00:40 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 00:19 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 00:16 rebdomine wrote:On August 26 2012 00:10 Mithriel wrote:
I'll side with esf for the entire thing! They did so much for sc2 in Korea and outside Korea! Happy they fight against kespa who just wants to step in and rule the sc2 scene. Fuck them yeah fuck them. fuck the association that is the reason why we even have korean esports. So what? That doesn't mean they should be able to waltz in and dictate everything in the scene. Hell they shouldn't even be dictating what their players can play in. Your employer should dictate what you work for. He simply should send you their money. Anyway if Kespa Player has problems is up to them to build up an player union. The ESF doesn't represent their interests. If Stork talks about he should maybe talk with other big famous player and do the player union. It like if CR7 says to RM, hey i wanna play in the premier legue next week, screw you RM. CR7 is under contract. The players are not under a labor contract. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=126075
But under a contract.
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On August 26 2012 01:55 Quarz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 00:47 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 00:40 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 00:19 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 00:16 rebdomine wrote:On August 26 2012 00:10 Mithriel wrote:
I'll side with esf for the entire thing! They did so much for sc2 in Korea and outside Korea! Happy they fight against kespa who just wants to step in and rule the sc2 scene. Fuck them yeah fuck them. fuck the association that is the reason why we even have korean esports. So what? That doesn't mean they should be able to waltz in and dictate everything in the scene. Hell they shouldn't even be dictating what their players can play in. Your employer should dictate what you work for. He simply should send you their money. Anyway if Kespa Player has problems is up to them to build up an player union. The ESF doesn't represent their interests. If Stork talks about he should maybe talk with other big famous player and do the player union. It like if CR7 says to RM, hey i wanna play in the premier legue next week, screw you RM. CR7 is under contract. The players are not under a labor contract. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=126075 But under a contract.
Looks like the worlds shittest contract lmao.
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On August 26 2012 01:55 Quarz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 00:47 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 00:40 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 00:19 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 00:16 rebdomine wrote:On August 26 2012 00:10 Mithriel wrote:
I'll side with esf for the entire thing! They did so much for sc2 in Korea and outside Korea! Happy they fight against kespa who just wants to step in and rule the sc2 scene. Fuck them yeah fuck them. fuck the association that is the reason why we even have korean esports. So what? That doesn't mean they should be able to waltz in and dictate everything in the scene. Hell they shouldn't even be dictating what their players can play in. Your employer should dictate what you work for. He simply should send you their money. Anyway if Kespa Player has problems is up to them to build up an player union. The ESF doesn't represent their interests. If Stork talks about he should maybe talk with other big famous player and do the player union. It like if CR7 says to RM, hey i wanna play in the premier legue next week, screw you RM. CR7 is under contract. The players are not under a labor contract. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=126075 But under a contract.
A civil contract doesn't make you an employee, sorry.
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On August 26 2012 01:55 Nekovivie wrote:
This matchup heavily favours ESF at the moment, looks like they are both setting up for the macro game however..
If anything I would comapre it to Romance of Three Kingdoms.
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On August 26 2012 01:58 achan1058 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 01:55 Nekovivie wrote:
This matchup heavily favours ESF at the moment, looks like they are both setting up for the macro game however.. If anything I would comapre it to Romance of Three Kingdoms.
Who's the third side?
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On August 26 2012 01:52 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 01:40 pencil_ethics wrote:On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:31 Ysellian wrote:On August 26 2012 01:21 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:13 pencil_ethics wrote:
To explain all this from a business perspective...
GOMTV Classic: New competing firm (Gretech) on the market, the big CARTEL (KeSPA) with its monopoly in players and $$$ basically decides to force it out of existence. In the business world they would call this anticompetitive and using market power to crush the little players: in fact business cartels are ILLEGAL. And I thought this was frowned upon. Guess not...
Current scenario: Same firm that got forcefully evicted from that other market now is the pioneer in this market. The cartel begs to gain entry and gets it, but tips its hand showing ambitions to use its power to turn the competitor's product into an inferior one to kill the smaller firm AGAIN. Those with an indirect stake in the smaller firm (eSF: note they don't own Gretech) decide to fight the cartel.
Now of course eSF != Gretech (under the current structure I believe Gretech is not represented in eSF), but Ongamenet is much closer to KeSPA (they have a seat on the strategy board at the very least, and its parent CJ is - surprise - a KeSPA member firm). Anyone who has been following the BW scene for a reasonable amount of time knows how much KeSPA has stifled the growth of even the Korean scene by keeping this artificial pro/amateur divide and using this to bully their own players into compliance. Also, KeSPA DID NOT create the Korean BW scene. It started as a grassroots thing from within Internet cafes. Big money came along and decided to swallow it whole. This is in fact a SOCIAL ISSUE in Korea, as the chaebol have far too much leverage over little firms (vertical/horizontal integration, monopsony, $$$, you name it).
tl;dr: Big guy trying to kill little guy. Succeeded once, now clearly trying again. Those with a stake in little guy decide to fight.
Monopolies and cartels are bad. Why is anyone rooting for the big guy here? So the NFL, NBA, NHL, FIFA, etc are monopolies and cartels too? Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them. And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws. Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have... Are we really arguing Kespa players get financially screwed now despite many GSL players not even getting salaries and none of them getting anything close to top Kespa salary? if anything the ESF trying to lock up these players in the interest of the teams, the trade embargo, etc all work against players far more than anything Kespa has done as of yet. What if hypothetically there's a player a Kespa team wants to pay big money for, like MMA, but they can't because of the trade embargo put in place? This is fair in your eyes? Or how about the first team organisation Korean SC2 teams tried to put in place to stop foreign teams from buying their players, even though they would get better salaries, better support in travelling to foreign events, etc?
lol you mean these players that get 10 million won a year for being an A-teamer?
(hint, that's not a lot)
Players aren't paid shit unless they're Flash tier. Unless they are stars.
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On August 26 2012 02:02 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 01:52 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 01:40 pencil_ethics wrote:On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:31 Ysellian wrote:On August 26 2012 01:21 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:13 pencil_ethics wrote:
To explain all this from a business perspective...
GOMTV Classic: New competing firm (Gretech) on the market, the big CARTEL (KeSPA) with its monopoly in players and $$$ basically decides to force it out of existence. In the business world they would call this anticompetitive and using market power to crush the little players: in fact business cartels are ILLEGAL. And I thought this was frowned upon. Guess not...
Current scenario: Same firm that got forcefully evicted from that other market now is the pioneer in this market. The cartel begs to gain entry and gets it, but tips its hand showing ambitions to use its power to turn the competitor's product into an inferior one to kill the smaller firm AGAIN. Those with an indirect stake in the smaller firm (eSF: note they don't own Gretech) decide to fight the cartel.
Now of course eSF != Gretech (under the current structure I believe Gretech is not represented in eSF), but Ongamenet is much closer to KeSPA (they have a seat on the strategy board at the very least, and its parent CJ is - surprise - a KeSPA member firm). Anyone who has been following the BW scene for a reasonable amount of time knows how much KeSPA has stifled the growth of even the Korean scene by keeping this artificial pro/amateur divide and using this to bully their own players into compliance. Also, KeSPA DID NOT create the Korean BW scene. It started as a grassroots thing from within Internet cafes. Big money came along and decided to swallow it whole. This is in fact a SOCIAL ISSUE in Korea, as the chaebol have far too much leverage over little firms (vertical/horizontal integration, monopsony, $$$, you name it).
tl;dr: Big guy trying to kill little guy. Succeeded once, now clearly trying again. Those with a stake in little guy decide to fight.
Monopolies and cartels are bad. Why is anyone rooting for the big guy here? So the NFL, NBA, NHL, FIFA, etc are monopolies and cartels too? Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them. And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws. Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have... Are we really arguing Kespa players get financially screwed now despite many GSL players not even getting salaries and none of them getting anything close to top Kespa salary? if anything the ESF trying to lock up these players in the interest of the teams, the trade embargo, etc all work against players far more than anything Kespa has done as of yet. What if hypothetically there's a player a Kespa team wants to pay big money for, like MMA, but they can't because of the trade embargo put in place? This is fair in your eyes? Or how about the first team organisation Korean SC2 teams tried to put in place to stop foreign teams from buying their players, even though they would get better salaries, better support in travelling to foreign events, etc? lol you mean these players that get 10 million won a year for being an A-teamer? (hint, that's not a lot)
In the mind of the most stalwart kespa defender, every bw player is on flash's salray!
I cant see it either  btw I really want to thank you for the translating work you've been doing 
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Brunei Darussalam566 Posts
On August 26 2012 01:58 achan1058 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 01:55 Nekovivie wrote:
This matchup heavily favours ESF at the moment, looks like they are both setting up for the macro game however.. If anything I would comapre it to Romance of Three Kingdoms.
Dunno, whenever I think of ESF I think of the Trade Federation and their droids.
pew pew pew
Who then battles Lord Kespa and his army of Tusken Raiders.
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You need the South Korean Proxy.
That site loathes foreigners.
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On August 26 2012 02:03 JiPrime wrote:You need the South Korean Proxy. That site loathes foreigners.
Ah ok. Thanks
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On August 26 2012 01:57 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 01:55 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 00:47 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 00:40 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 00:19 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 00:16 rebdomine wrote:On August 26 2012 00:10 Mithriel wrote:
I'll side with esf for the entire thing! They did so much for sc2 in Korea and outside Korea! Happy they fight against kespa who just wants to step in and rule the sc2 scene. Fuck them yeah fuck them. fuck the association that is the reason why we even have korean esports. So what? That doesn't mean they should be able to waltz in and dictate everything in the scene. Hell they shouldn't even be dictating what their players can play in. Your employer should dictate what you work for. He simply should send you their money. Anyway if Kespa Player has problems is up to them to build up an player union. The ESF doesn't represent their interests. If Stork talks about he should maybe talk with other big famous player and do the player union. It like if CR7 says to RM, hey i wanna play in the premier legue next week, screw you RM. CR7 is under contract. The players are not under a labor contract. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=126075 But under a contract. A civil contract doesn't make you an employee, sorry.
Doesn't matter. There a contract they signed them and suddenly the Kespa teams are evil. Okay you can be happy they are not employe.
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Building trust through threats. This was the correct move up ESF that is for sure, I cannot express how happy I am to have read this. KeSPa needs to participate now, and promise to participate in the future. Not this one time thing that KeSPa could have also backed out of......let the games begin.
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On August 26 2012 01:52 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 01:40 pencil_ethics wrote:On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:31 Ysellian wrote:On August 26 2012 01:21 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:13 pencil_ethics wrote:
To explain all this from a business perspective...
GOMTV Classic: New competing firm (Gretech) on the market, the big CARTEL (KeSPA) with its monopoly in players and $$$ basically decides to force it out of existence. In the business world they would call this anticompetitive and using market power to crush the little players: in fact business cartels are ILLEGAL. And I thought this was frowned upon. Guess not...
Current scenario: Same firm that got forcefully evicted from that other market now is the pioneer in this market. The cartel begs to gain entry and gets it, but tips its hand showing ambitions to use its power to turn the competitor's product into an inferior one to kill the smaller firm AGAIN. Those with an indirect stake in the smaller firm (eSF: note they don't own Gretech) decide to fight the cartel.
Now of course eSF != Gretech (under the current structure I believe Gretech is not represented in eSF), but Ongamenet is much closer to KeSPA (they have a seat on the strategy board at the very least, and its parent CJ is - surprise - a KeSPA member firm). Anyone who has been following the BW scene for a reasonable amount of time knows how much KeSPA has stifled the growth of even the Korean scene by keeping this artificial pro/amateur divide and using this to bully their own players into compliance. Also, KeSPA DID NOT create the Korean BW scene. It started as a grassroots thing from within Internet cafes. Big money came along and decided to swallow it whole. This is in fact a SOCIAL ISSUE in Korea, as the chaebol have far too much leverage over little firms (vertical/horizontal integration, monopsony, $$$, you name it).
tl;dr: Big guy trying to kill little guy. Succeeded once, now clearly trying again. Those with a stake in little guy decide to fight.
Monopolies and cartels are bad. Why is anyone rooting for the big guy here? So the NFL, NBA, NHL, FIFA, etc are monopolies and cartels too? Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them. And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws. Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have... Are we really arguing Kespa players get financially screwed now despite many GSL players not even getting salaries and none of them getting anything close to top Kespa salary? if anything the ESF trying to lock up these players in the interest of the teams, the trade embargo, etc all work against players far more than anything Kespa has done as of yet. What if hypothetically there's a player a Kespa team wants to pay big money for, like MMA, but they can't because of the trade embargo put in place? This is fair in your eyes? Or how about the first team organisation Korean SC2 teams tried to put in place to stop foreign teams from buying their players, even though they would get better salaries, better support in travelling to foreign events, etc?
This is what I've been trying to say. All these kids compare Kespa with cartels, monopolies and even Nazi's and rally around the eSF "Think of the players" banner don't even know that only the prize money winners get anything and the ones who don't win get fucked even harder than the KeSPa B-Teamers.
I'm beginning to think all this KeSPa hate is a bunch of entitled brats angry because they think KeSPa has deprived them of some entertainment.
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EPT
