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On August 26 2012 02:04 attackmoveftw wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 01:52 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 01:40 pencil_ethics wrote:On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:31 Ysellian wrote:On August 26 2012 01:21 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:13 pencil_ethics wrote:
To explain all this from a business perspective...
GOMTV Classic: New competing firm (Gretech) on the market, the big CARTEL (KeSPA) with its monopoly in players and $$$ basically decides to force it out of existence. In the business world they would call this anticompetitive and using market power to crush the little players: in fact business cartels are ILLEGAL. And I thought this was frowned upon. Guess not...
Current scenario: Same firm that got forcefully evicted from that other market now is the pioneer in this market. The cartel begs to gain entry and gets it, but tips its hand showing ambitions to use its power to turn the competitor's product into an inferior one to kill the smaller firm AGAIN. Those with an indirect stake in the smaller firm (eSF: note they don't own Gretech) decide to fight the cartel.
Now of course eSF != Gretech (under the current structure I believe Gretech is not represented in eSF), but Ongamenet is much closer to KeSPA (they have a seat on the strategy board at the very least, and its parent CJ is - surprise - a KeSPA member firm). Anyone who has been following the BW scene for a reasonable amount of time knows how much KeSPA has stifled the growth of even the Korean scene by keeping this artificial pro/amateur divide and using this to bully their own players into compliance. Also, KeSPA DID NOT create the Korean BW scene. It started as a grassroots thing from within Internet cafes. Big money came along and decided to swallow it whole. This is in fact a SOCIAL ISSUE in Korea, as the chaebol have far too much leverage over little firms (vertical/horizontal integration, monopsony, $$$, you name it).
tl;dr: Big guy trying to kill little guy. Succeeded once, now clearly trying again. Those with a stake in little guy decide to fight.
Monopolies and cartels are bad. Why is anyone rooting for the big guy here? So the NFL, NBA, NHL, FIFA, etc are monopolies and cartels too? Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them. And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws. Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have... Are we really arguing Kespa players get financially screwed now despite many GSL players not even getting salaries and none of them getting anything close to top Kespa salary? if anything the ESF trying to lock up these players in the interest of the teams, the trade embargo, etc all work against players far more than anything Kespa has done as of yet. What if hypothetically there's a player a Kespa team wants to pay big money for, like MMA, but they can't because of the trade embargo put in place? This is fair in your eyes? Or how about the first team organisation Korean SC2 teams tried to put in place to stop foreign teams from buying their players, even though they would get better salaries, better support in travelling to foreign events, etc? This is what I've been trying to say. All these kids compare Kespa with cartels, monopolies and even Nazi's and rally around the eSF "Think of the players" banner don't even know that only the prize money winners get anything and the ones who don't win get fucked even harder than the KeSPa B-Teamers. I'm beginning to think all this KeSPa hate is a bunch of entitled brats angry because they think KeSPa has deprived them of some entertainment.
You don't think it's even a little wrong that teams under kespa didn't pay the minimum wage to practice partners/ b-teamers?
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On August 26 2012 02:04 attackmoveftw wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 01:52 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 01:40 pencil_ethics wrote:On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:31 Ysellian wrote:On August 26 2012 01:21 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:13 pencil_ethics wrote:
To explain all this from a business perspective...
GOMTV Classic: New competing firm (Gretech) on the market, the big CARTEL (KeSPA) with its monopoly in players and $$$ basically decides to force it out of existence. In the business world they would call this anticompetitive and using market power to crush the little players: in fact business cartels are ILLEGAL. And I thought this was frowned upon. Guess not...
Current scenario: Same firm that got forcefully evicted from that other market now is the pioneer in this market. The cartel begs to gain entry and gets it, but tips its hand showing ambitions to use its power to turn the competitor's product into an inferior one to kill the smaller firm AGAIN. Those with an indirect stake in the smaller firm (eSF: note they don't own Gretech) decide to fight the cartel.
Now of course eSF != Gretech (under the current structure I believe Gretech is not represented in eSF), but Ongamenet is much closer to KeSPA (they have a seat on the strategy board at the very least, and its parent CJ is - surprise - a KeSPA member firm). Anyone who has been following the BW scene for a reasonable amount of time knows how much KeSPA has stifled the growth of even the Korean scene by keeping this artificial pro/amateur divide and using this to bully their own players into compliance. Also, KeSPA DID NOT create the Korean BW scene. It started as a grassroots thing from within Internet cafes. Big money came along and decided to swallow it whole. This is in fact a SOCIAL ISSUE in Korea, as the chaebol have far too much leverage over little firms (vertical/horizontal integration, monopsony, $$$, you name it).
tl;dr: Big guy trying to kill little guy. Succeeded once, now clearly trying again. Those with a stake in little guy decide to fight.
Monopolies and cartels are bad. Why is anyone rooting for the big guy here? So the NFL, NBA, NHL, FIFA, etc are monopolies and cartels too? Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them. And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws. Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have... Are we really arguing Kespa players get financially screwed now despite many GSL players not even getting salaries and none of them getting anything close to top Kespa salary? if anything the ESF trying to lock up these players in the interest of the teams, the trade embargo, etc all work against players far more than anything Kespa has done as of yet. What if hypothetically there's a player a Kespa team wants to pay big money for, like MMA, but they can't because of the trade embargo put in place? This is fair in your eyes? Or how about the first team organisation Korean SC2 teams tried to put in place to stop foreign teams from buying their players, even though they would get better salaries, better support in travelling to foreign events, etc? This is what I've been trying to say. All these kids compare Kespa with cartels, monopolies and even Nazi's and rally around the eSF "Think of the players" banner don't even know that only the prize money winners get anything and the ones who don't win get fucked even harder than the KeSPa B-Teamers. I'm beginning to think all this KeSPa hate is a bunch of entitled brats angry because they think KeSPa has deprived them of some entertainment.
Or the silent majority who now actually have an alternative to the scene (GOM) and wishes to protect and support it.
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On August 26 2012 02:03 Quarz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 01:57 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:55 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 00:47 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 00:40 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 00:19 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 00:16 rebdomine wrote:On August 26 2012 00:10 Mithriel wrote:
I'll side with esf for the entire thing! They did so much for sc2 in Korea and outside Korea! Happy they fight against kespa who just wants to step in and rule the sc2 scene. Fuck them yeah fuck them. fuck the association that is the reason why we even have korean esports. So what? That doesn't mean they should be able to waltz in and dictate everything in the scene. Hell they shouldn't even be dictating what their players can play in. Your employer should dictate what you work for. He simply should send you their money. Anyway if Kespa Player has problems is up to them to build up an player union. The ESF doesn't represent their interests. If Stork talks about he should maybe talk with other big famous player and do the player union. It like if CR7 says to RM, hey i wanna play in the premier legue next week, screw you RM. CR7 is under contract. The players are not under a labor contract. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=126075 But under a contract. A civil contract doesn't make you an employee, sorry. Doesn't matter. There a contract they signed them and suddenly the Kespa teams are evil. Okay you can be happy they are not employe.
No one has ever said the KeSPA teams are evil, just KeSPA.
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On August 26 2012 02:05 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 02:04 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:52 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 01:40 pencil_ethics wrote:On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:31 Ysellian wrote:On August 26 2012 01:21 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:13 pencil_ethics wrote:
To explain all this from a business perspective...
GOMTV Classic: New competing firm (Gretech) on the market, the big CARTEL (KeSPA) with its monopoly in players and $$$ basically decides to force it out of existence. In the business world they would call this anticompetitive and using market power to crush the little players: in fact business cartels are ILLEGAL. And I thought this was frowned upon. Guess not...
Current scenario: Same firm that got forcefully evicted from that other market now is the pioneer in this market. The cartel begs to gain entry and gets it, but tips its hand showing ambitions to use its power to turn the competitor's product into an inferior one to kill the smaller firm AGAIN. Those with an indirect stake in the smaller firm (eSF: note they don't own Gretech) decide to fight the cartel.
Now of course eSF != Gretech (under the current structure I believe Gretech is not represented in eSF), but Ongamenet is much closer to KeSPA (they have a seat on the strategy board at the very least, and its parent CJ is - surprise - a KeSPA member firm). Anyone who has been following the BW scene for a reasonable amount of time knows how much KeSPA has stifled the growth of even the Korean scene by keeping this artificial pro/amateur divide and using this to bully their own players into compliance. Also, KeSPA DID NOT create the Korean BW scene. It started as a grassroots thing from within Internet cafes. Big money came along and decided to swallow it whole. This is in fact a SOCIAL ISSUE in Korea, as the chaebol have far too much leverage over little firms (vertical/horizontal integration, monopsony, $$$, you name it).
tl;dr: Big guy trying to kill little guy. Succeeded once, now clearly trying again. Those with a stake in little guy decide to fight.
Monopolies and cartels are bad. Why is anyone rooting for the big guy here? So the NFL, NBA, NHL, FIFA, etc are monopolies and cartels too? Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them. And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws. Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have... Are we really arguing Kespa players get financially screwed now despite many GSL players not even getting salaries and none of them getting anything close to top Kespa salary? if anything the ESF trying to lock up these players in the interest of the teams, the trade embargo, etc all work against players far more than anything Kespa has done as of yet. What if hypothetically there's a player a Kespa team wants to pay big money for, like MMA, but they can't because of the trade embargo put in place? This is fair in your eyes? Or how about the first team organisation Korean SC2 teams tried to put in place to stop foreign teams from buying their players, even though they would get better salaries, better support in travelling to foreign events, etc? This is what I've been trying to say. All these kids compare Kespa with cartels, monopolies and even Nazi's and rally around the eSF "Think of the players" banner don't even know that only the prize money winners get anything and the ones who don't win get fucked even harder than the KeSPa B-Teamers. I'm beginning to think all this KeSPa hate is a bunch of entitled brats angry because they think KeSPa has deprived them of some entertainment. You don't think it's even a little wrong that teams under kespa didn't pay the minimum wage to practice partners/ b-teamers?
So the ESF fight for the practice partners/b-teamers rights? I miss something. They should maybe fight for their own interest. I have nothing against their moves, but they simply dont fight for Kespa players rights.
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On August 26 2012 02:02 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 01:52 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 01:40 pencil_ethics wrote:On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:31 Ysellian wrote:On August 26 2012 01:21 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:13 pencil_ethics wrote:
To explain all this from a business perspective...
GOMTV Classic: New competing firm (Gretech) on the market, the big CARTEL (KeSPA) with its monopoly in players and $$$ basically decides to force it out of existence. In the business world they would call this anticompetitive and using market power to crush the little players: in fact business cartels are ILLEGAL. And I thought this was frowned upon. Guess not...
Current scenario: Same firm that got forcefully evicted from that other market now is the pioneer in this market. The cartel begs to gain entry and gets it, but tips its hand showing ambitions to use its power to turn the competitor's product into an inferior one to kill the smaller firm AGAIN. Those with an indirect stake in the smaller firm (eSF: note they don't own Gretech) decide to fight the cartel.
Now of course eSF != Gretech (under the current structure I believe Gretech is not represented in eSF), but Ongamenet is much closer to KeSPA (they have a seat on the strategy board at the very least, and its parent CJ is - surprise - a KeSPA member firm). Anyone who has been following the BW scene for a reasonable amount of time knows how much KeSPA has stifled the growth of even the Korean scene by keeping this artificial pro/amateur divide and using this to bully their own players into compliance. Also, KeSPA DID NOT create the Korean BW scene. It started as a grassroots thing from within Internet cafes. Big money came along and decided to swallow it whole. This is in fact a SOCIAL ISSUE in Korea, as the chaebol have far too much leverage over little firms (vertical/horizontal integration, monopsony, $$$, you name it).
tl;dr: Big guy trying to kill little guy. Succeeded once, now clearly trying again. Those with a stake in little guy decide to fight.
Monopolies and cartels are bad. Why is anyone rooting for the big guy here? So the NFL, NBA, NHL, FIFA, etc are monopolies and cartels too? Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them. And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws. Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have... Are we really arguing Kespa players get financially screwed now despite many GSL players not even getting salaries and none of them getting anything close to top Kespa salary? if anything the ESF trying to lock up these players in the interest of the teams, the trade embargo, etc all work against players far more than anything Kespa has done as of yet. What if hypothetically there's a player a Kespa team wants to pay big money for, like MMA, but they can't because of the trade embargo put in place? This is fair in your eyes? Or how about the first team organisation Korean SC2 teams tried to put in place to stop foreign teams from buying their players, even though they would get better salaries, better support in travelling to foreign events, etc? lol you mean these players that get 10 million won a year for being an A-teamer? (hint, that's not a lot) Players aren't paid shit unless they're Flash tier. Unless they are stars.
Compare the average salary expense for GSTL teams and Kespa teams. Every sport is ridiculously top heavy with salaries. Kobe gets 30m a year and there are players getting 800k. You can complain about the relative pay scale all you want but they pay more on average, period. There are more Kespa players making comfortable living than there ever will be under GSL. But let's keep talking about protecting the players!
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On August 26 2012 02:05 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 02:04 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:52 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 01:40 pencil_ethics wrote:On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:31 Ysellian wrote:On August 26 2012 01:21 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:13 pencil_ethics wrote:
To explain all this from a business perspective...
GOMTV Classic: New competing firm (Gretech) on the market, the big CARTEL (KeSPA) with its monopoly in players and $$$ basically decides to force it out of existence. In the business world they would call this anticompetitive and using market power to crush the little players: in fact business cartels are ILLEGAL. And I thought this was frowned upon. Guess not...
Current scenario: Same firm that got forcefully evicted from that other market now is the pioneer in this market. The cartel begs to gain entry and gets it, but tips its hand showing ambitions to use its power to turn the competitor's product into an inferior one to kill the smaller firm AGAIN. Those with an indirect stake in the smaller firm (eSF: note they don't own Gretech) decide to fight the cartel.
Now of course eSF != Gretech (under the current structure I believe Gretech is not represented in eSF), but Ongamenet is much closer to KeSPA (they have a seat on the strategy board at the very least, and its parent CJ is - surprise - a KeSPA member firm). Anyone who has been following the BW scene for a reasonable amount of time knows how much KeSPA has stifled the growth of even the Korean scene by keeping this artificial pro/amateur divide and using this to bully their own players into compliance. Also, KeSPA DID NOT create the Korean BW scene. It started as a grassroots thing from within Internet cafes. Big money came along and decided to swallow it whole. This is in fact a SOCIAL ISSUE in Korea, as the chaebol have far too much leverage over little firms (vertical/horizontal integration, monopsony, $$$, you name it).
tl;dr: Big guy trying to kill little guy. Succeeded once, now clearly trying again. Those with a stake in little guy decide to fight.
Monopolies and cartels are bad. Why is anyone rooting for the big guy here? So the NFL, NBA, NHL, FIFA, etc are monopolies and cartels too? Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them. And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws. Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have... Are we really arguing Kespa players get financially screwed now despite many GSL players not even getting salaries and none of them getting anything close to top Kespa salary? if anything the ESF trying to lock up these players in the interest of the teams, the trade embargo, etc all work against players far more than anything Kespa has done as of yet. What if hypothetically there's a player a Kespa team wants to pay big money for, like MMA, but they can't because of the trade embargo put in place? This is fair in your eyes? Or how about the first team organisation Korean SC2 teams tried to put in place to stop foreign teams from buying their players, even though they would get better salaries, better support in travelling to foreign events, etc? This is what I've been trying to say. All these kids compare Kespa with cartels, monopolies and even Nazi's and rally around the eSF "Think of the players" banner don't even know that only the prize money winners get anything and the ones who don't win get fucked even harder than the KeSPa B-Teamers. I'm beginning to think all this KeSPa hate is a bunch of entitled brats angry because they think KeSPa has deprived them of some entertainment. You don't think it's even a little wrong that teams under kespa didn't pay the minimum wage to practice partners/ b-teamers?
And you think eSF do? Do eSF even provide food and lodge?
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On August 26 2012 02:05 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 02:04 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:52 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 01:40 pencil_ethics wrote:On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:31 Ysellian wrote:On August 26 2012 01:21 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:13 pencil_ethics wrote:
To explain all this from a business perspective...
GOMTV Classic: New competing firm (Gretech) on the market, the big CARTEL (KeSPA) with its monopoly in players and $$$ basically decides to force it out of existence. In the business world they would call this anticompetitive and using market power to crush the little players: in fact business cartels are ILLEGAL. And I thought this was frowned upon. Guess not...
Current scenario: Same firm that got forcefully evicted from that other market now is the pioneer in this market. The cartel begs to gain entry and gets it, but tips its hand showing ambitions to use its power to turn the competitor's product into an inferior one to kill the smaller firm AGAIN. Those with an indirect stake in the smaller firm (eSF: note they don't own Gretech) decide to fight the cartel.
Now of course eSF != Gretech (under the current structure I believe Gretech is not represented in eSF), but Ongamenet is much closer to KeSPA (they have a seat on the strategy board at the very least, and its parent CJ is - surprise - a KeSPA member firm). Anyone who has been following the BW scene for a reasonable amount of time knows how much KeSPA has stifled the growth of even the Korean scene by keeping this artificial pro/amateur divide and using this to bully their own players into compliance. Also, KeSPA DID NOT create the Korean BW scene. It started as a grassroots thing from within Internet cafes. Big money came along and decided to swallow it whole. This is in fact a SOCIAL ISSUE in Korea, as the chaebol have far too much leverage over little firms (vertical/horizontal integration, monopsony, $$$, you name it).
tl;dr: Big guy trying to kill little guy. Succeeded once, now clearly trying again. Those with a stake in little guy decide to fight.
Monopolies and cartels are bad. Why is anyone rooting for the big guy here? So the NFL, NBA, NHL, FIFA, etc are monopolies and cartels too? Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them. And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws. Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have... Are we really arguing Kespa players get financially screwed now despite many GSL players not even getting salaries and none of them getting anything close to top Kespa salary? if anything the ESF trying to lock up these players in the interest of the teams, the trade embargo, etc all work against players far more than anything Kespa has done as of yet. What if hypothetically there's a player a Kespa team wants to pay big money for, like MMA, but they can't because of the trade embargo put in place? This is fair in your eyes? Or how about the first team organisation Korean SC2 teams tried to put in place to stop foreign teams from buying their players, even though they would get better salaries, better support in travelling to foreign events, etc? This is what I've been trying to say. All these kids compare Kespa with cartels, monopolies and even Nazi's and rally around the eSF "Think of the players" banner don't even know that only the prize money winners get anything and the ones who don't win get fucked even harder than the KeSPa B-Teamers. I'm beginning to think all this KeSPa hate is a bunch of entitled brats angry because they think KeSPa has deprived them of some entertainment. You don't think it's even a little wrong that teams under kespa didn't pay the minimum wage to practice partners/ b-teamers?
Not even all B-teamers were paid, only ones on bigger teams.
On August 26 2012 02:10 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 02:02 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:52 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 01:40 pencil_ethics wrote:On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:31 Ysellian wrote:On August 26 2012 01:21 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:13 pencil_ethics wrote:
To explain all this from a business perspective...
GOMTV Classic: New competing firm (Gretech) on the market, the big CARTEL (KeSPA) with its monopoly in players and $$$ basically decides to force it out of existence. In the business world they would call this anticompetitive and using market power to crush the little players: in fact business cartels are ILLEGAL. And I thought this was frowned upon. Guess not...
Current scenario: Same firm that got forcefully evicted from that other market now is the pioneer in this market. The cartel begs to gain entry and gets it, but tips its hand showing ambitions to use its power to turn the competitor's product into an inferior one to kill the smaller firm AGAIN. Those with an indirect stake in the smaller firm (eSF: note they don't own Gretech) decide to fight the cartel.
Now of course eSF != Gretech (under the current structure I believe Gretech is not represented in eSF), but Ongamenet is much closer to KeSPA (they have a seat on the strategy board at the very least, and its parent CJ is - surprise - a KeSPA member firm). Anyone who has been following the BW scene for a reasonable amount of time knows how much KeSPA has stifled the growth of even the Korean scene by keeping this artificial pro/amateur divide and using this to bully their own players into compliance. Also, KeSPA DID NOT create the Korean BW scene. It started as a grassroots thing from within Internet cafes. Big money came along and decided to swallow it whole. This is in fact a SOCIAL ISSUE in Korea, as the chaebol have far too much leverage over little firms (vertical/horizontal integration, monopsony, $$$, you name it).
tl;dr: Big guy trying to kill little guy. Succeeded once, now clearly trying again. Those with a stake in little guy decide to fight.
Monopolies and cartels are bad. Why is anyone rooting for the big guy here? So the NFL, NBA, NHL, FIFA, etc are monopolies and cartels too? Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them. And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws. Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have... Are we really arguing Kespa players get financially screwed now despite many GSL players not even getting salaries and none of them getting anything close to top Kespa salary? if anything the ESF trying to lock up these players in the interest of the teams, the trade embargo, etc all work against players far more than anything Kespa has done as of yet. What if hypothetically there's a player a Kespa team wants to pay big money for, like MMA, but they can't because of the trade embargo put in place? This is fair in your eyes? Or how about the first team organisation Korean SC2 teams tried to put in place to stop foreign teams from buying their players, even though they would get better salaries, better support in travelling to foreign events, etc? lol you mean these players that get 10 million won a year for being an A-teamer? (hint, that's not a lot) Players aren't paid shit unless they're Flash tier. Unless they are stars. Compare the average salary expense for GSTL teams and Kespa teams. Every sport is ridiculously top heavy with salaries. Kobe gets 30m a year and there are players getting 800k. You can complain about the relative pay scale all you want but they pay more on average, period. There are more Kespa players making comfortable living than there ever will be under GSL. But let's keep talking about protecting the players!
10 million won is below minimum wage for how much they work.
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KeSPA teams aren't evil. KeSPA the organization over looking it's teams tend to be very bossy. Don't confuse the two as one and the same.
I'm actually glad eSF isn't standing to be pushed aside by KeSPA but I feel like this has gotten to such a point where if it isn't fixed, both sides will hurt from this. eSF seriously cannot stand on this stance any longer or it'll hurt them as much as KeSPA.
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On August 26 2012 02:08 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 02:03 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 01:57 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:55 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 00:47 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 00:40 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 00:19 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 00:16 rebdomine wrote:On August 26 2012 00:10 Mithriel wrote:
I'll side with esf for the entire thing! They did so much for sc2 in Korea and outside Korea! Happy they fight against kespa who just wants to step in and rule the sc2 scene. Fuck them yeah fuck them. fuck the association that is the reason why we even have korean esports. So what? That doesn't mean they should be able to waltz in and dictate everything in the scene. Hell they shouldn't even be dictating what their players can play in. Your employer should dictate what you work for. He simply should send you their money. Anyway if Kespa Player has problems is up to them to build up an player union. The ESF doesn't represent their interests. If Stork talks about he should maybe talk with other big famous player and do the player union. It like if CR7 says to RM, hey i wanna play in the premier legue next week, screw you RM. CR7 is under contract. The players are not under a labor contract. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=126075 But under a contract. A civil contract doesn't make you an employee, sorry. Doesn't matter. There a contract they signed them and suddenly the Kespa teams are evil. Okay you can be happy they are not employe. No one has ever said the KeSPA teams are evil, just KeSPA.
But the teams stay there. If the sponsors find the Kespa so evil they can simply leave. But yeah thse big companies get now bullied by Kespa. It not ligical to find the KEspa evil, but the teams are all fine.
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At first I thought ESF was ineffective, but I have to say, I'm liking this group. They're not affiliated with GOM in any way except for the fact that GOM was the league that's the mother of all SC2 leagues in Korea and the one that allowed their players to make a living over there, and this is their way of standing up for both a less draconian system than KeSPA and supporting the blooming of other leagues and more competition.
Additionally:
That is why the decision was made after sufficient discussions with the coaches of the teams in the eSports Federations as well as the players.
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"Today(25th) we have requested that GomTV extends the GSL4 qualifiers application deadline so that the KeSPA players would be able to participate in GSL4." The GSL4 qualfiers application started on the 24th and the reception of the applications are scheduled to stop on Monday(27th).
Keep on trucking, ESF. One of the biggest complaints about KeSPA from the players themselves (both still in KeSPA teams and out of them now) was that they basically had absolutely no say in anything really.
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Kespa should let gom take over where MSL left off..
GOMTV doesn't seem to want to become nothing more then allready are and keep evolving from there..
Kespa should keep OSL and make it the better tournament then GSL(not that i wish it but because it was the best in BW times) and keep PL with the best 6 teams of GSL.. maybe even making 2 divisions - KESPA teams vs GSL teams
So they are doing it all wrong, denying there players the entry in GSL is not only wrong and bad for GSL and the fans but also it's robbing the kespa players more money, training and exposure..
I'm with GSL and ESF because these are my star player.. flash is good and i want to see what he can do but he won't ever be a MC or MVP no matter what he wins in the future because these players allready have a history that we have followed for 2 years!
I support the way ESF+GSL have been working.. they need leverage because they are the underdogs in this fight
I really hope Kespa accepts GSL like a solid partner instead of a stupid rivalry that won't leed to nothing.. OSL will take a big dive without GSL players
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On August 26 2012 02:11 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 02:05 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 02:04 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:52 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 01:40 pencil_ethics wrote:On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:31 Ysellian wrote:On August 26 2012 01:21 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:13 pencil_ethics wrote:
To explain all this from a business perspective...
GOMTV Classic: New competing firm (Gretech) on the market, the big CARTEL (KeSPA) with its monopoly in players and $$$ basically decides to force it out of existence. In the business world they would call this anticompetitive and using market power to crush the little players: in fact business cartels are ILLEGAL. And I thought this was frowned upon. Guess not...
Current scenario: Same firm that got forcefully evicted from that other market now is the pioneer in this market. The cartel begs to gain entry and gets it, but tips its hand showing ambitions to use its power to turn the competitor's product into an inferior one to kill the smaller firm AGAIN. Those with an indirect stake in the smaller firm (eSF: note they don't own Gretech) decide to fight the cartel.
Now of course eSF != Gretech (under the current structure I believe Gretech is not represented in eSF), but Ongamenet is much closer to KeSPA (they have a seat on the strategy board at the very least, and its parent CJ is - surprise - a KeSPA member firm). Anyone who has been following the BW scene for a reasonable amount of time knows how much KeSPA has stifled the growth of even the Korean scene by keeping this artificial pro/amateur divide and using this to bully their own players into compliance. Also, KeSPA DID NOT create the Korean BW scene. It started as a grassroots thing from within Internet cafes. Big money came along and decided to swallow it whole. This is in fact a SOCIAL ISSUE in Korea, as the chaebol have far too much leverage over little firms (vertical/horizontal integration, monopsony, $$$, you name it).
tl;dr: Big guy trying to kill little guy. Succeeded once, now clearly trying again. Those with a stake in little guy decide to fight.
Monopolies and cartels are bad. Why is anyone rooting for the big guy here? So the NFL, NBA, NHL, FIFA, etc are monopolies and cartels too? Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them. And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws. Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have... Are we really arguing Kespa players get financially screwed now despite many GSL players not even getting salaries and none of them getting anything close to top Kespa salary? if anything the ESF trying to lock up these players in the interest of the teams, the trade embargo, etc all work against players far more than anything Kespa has done as of yet. What if hypothetically there's a player a Kespa team wants to pay big money for, like MMA, but they can't because of the trade embargo put in place? This is fair in your eyes? Or how about the first team organisation Korean SC2 teams tried to put in place to stop foreign teams from buying their players, even though they would get better salaries, better support in travelling to foreign events, etc? This is what I've been trying to say. All these kids compare Kespa with cartels, monopolies and even Nazi's and rally around the eSF "Think of the players" banner don't even know that only the prize money winners get anything and the ones who don't win get fucked even harder than the KeSPa B-Teamers. I'm beginning to think all this KeSPa hate is a bunch of entitled brats angry because they think KeSPa has deprived them of some entertainment. You don't think it's even a little wrong that teams under kespa didn't pay the minimum wage to practice partners/ b-teamers? Not even all B-teamers were paid, only ones on bigger teams. Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 02:10 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 02:02 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:52 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 01:40 pencil_ethics wrote:On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:31 Ysellian wrote:On August 26 2012 01:21 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:13 pencil_ethics wrote:
To explain all this from a business perspective...
GOMTV Classic: New competing firm (Gretech) on the market, the big CARTEL (KeSPA) with its monopoly in players and $$$ basically decides to force it out of existence. In the business world they would call this anticompetitive and using market power to crush the little players: in fact business cartels are ILLEGAL. And I thought this was frowned upon. Guess not...
Current scenario: Same firm that got forcefully evicted from that other market now is the pioneer in this market. The cartel begs to gain entry and gets it, but tips its hand showing ambitions to use its power to turn the competitor's product into an inferior one to kill the smaller firm AGAIN. Those with an indirect stake in the smaller firm (eSF: note they don't own Gretech) decide to fight the cartel.
Now of course eSF != Gretech (under the current structure I believe Gretech is not represented in eSF), but Ongamenet is much closer to KeSPA (they have a seat on the strategy board at the very least, and its parent CJ is - surprise - a KeSPA member firm). Anyone who has been following the BW scene for a reasonable amount of time knows how much KeSPA has stifled the growth of even the Korean scene by keeping this artificial pro/amateur divide and using this to bully their own players into compliance. Also, KeSPA DID NOT create the Korean BW scene. It started as a grassroots thing from within Internet cafes. Big money came along and decided to swallow it whole. This is in fact a SOCIAL ISSUE in Korea, as the chaebol have far too much leverage over little firms (vertical/horizontal integration, monopsony, $$$, you name it).
tl;dr: Big guy trying to kill little guy. Succeeded once, now clearly trying again. Those with a stake in little guy decide to fight.
Monopolies and cartels are bad. Why is anyone rooting for the big guy here? So the NFL, NBA, NHL, FIFA, etc are monopolies and cartels too? Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them. And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws. Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have... Are we really arguing Kespa players get financially screwed now despite many GSL players not even getting salaries and none of them getting anything close to top Kespa salary? if anything the ESF trying to lock up these players in the interest of the teams, the trade embargo, etc all work against players far more than anything Kespa has done as of yet. What if hypothetically there's a player a Kespa team wants to pay big money for, like MMA, but they can't because of the trade embargo put in place? This is fair in your eyes? Or how about the first team organisation Korean SC2 teams tried to put in place to stop foreign teams from buying their players, even though they would get better salaries, better support in travelling to foreign events, etc? lol you mean these players that get 10 million won a year for being an A-teamer? (hint, that's not a lot) Players aren't paid shit unless they're Flash tier. Unless they are stars. Compare the average salary expense for GSTL teams and Kespa teams. Every sport is ridiculously top heavy with salaries. Kobe gets 30m a year and there are players getting 800k. You can complain about the relative pay scale all you want but they pay more on average, period. There are more Kespa players making comfortable living than there ever will be under GSL. But let's keep talking about protecting the players! 10 million won is below minimum wage for how much they work.
TSL had 2 players getting salaries. 2 on their entire team. 10 million won (call it 9k a year?) plus free room and board, free food. I'm not saying it's good, but compare it to 0. GSL teams are virtually all dirt poor, but lets institute an embargo so good ones can't go to Kespa teams, we'll call it protecting them.
And we're just arguing your completely hollow point about what one player makes compared to the completely undeniable fact that Kespa players are paid more
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On August 26 2012 02:11 attackmoveftw wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 02:05 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 02:04 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:52 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 01:40 pencil_ethics wrote:On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:31 Ysellian wrote:On August 26 2012 01:21 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:13 pencil_ethics wrote:
To explain all this from a business perspective...
GOMTV Classic: New competing firm (Gretech) on the market, the big CARTEL (KeSPA) with its monopoly in players and $$$ basically decides to force it out of existence. In the business world they would call this anticompetitive and using market power to crush the little players: in fact business cartels are ILLEGAL. And I thought this was frowned upon. Guess not...
Current scenario: Same firm that got forcefully evicted from that other market now is the pioneer in this market. The cartel begs to gain entry and gets it, but tips its hand showing ambitions to use its power to turn the competitor's product into an inferior one to kill the smaller firm AGAIN. Those with an indirect stake in the smaller firm (eSF: note they don't own Gretech) decide to fight the cartel.
Now of course eSF != Gretech (under the current structure I believe Gretech is not represented in eSF), but Ongamenet is much closer to KeSPA (they have a seat on the strategy board at the very least, and its parent CJ is - surprise - a KeSPA member firm). Anyone who has been following the BW scene for a reasonable amount of time knows how much KeSPA has stifled the growth of even the Korean scene by keeping this artificial pro/amateur divide and using this to bully their own players into compliance. Also, KeSPA DID NOT create the Korean BW scene. It started as a grassroots thing from within Internet cafes. Big money came along and decided to swallow it whole. This is in fact a SOCIAL ISSUE in Korea, as the chaebol have far too much leverage over little firms (vertical/horizontal integration, monopsony, $$$, you name it).
tl;dr: Big guy trying to kill little guy. Succeeded once, now clearly trying again. Those with a stake in little guy decide to fight.
Monopolies and cartels are bad. Why is anyone rooting for the big guy here? So the NFL, NBA, NHL, FIFA, etc are monopolies and cartels too? Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them. And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws. Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have... Are we really arguing Kespa players get financially screwed now despite many GSL players not even getting salaries and none of them getting anything close to top Kespa salary? if anything the ESF trying to lock up these players in the interest of the teams, the trade embargo, etc all work against players far more than anything Kespa has done as of yet. What if hypothetically there's a player a Kespa team wants to pay big money for, like MMA, but they can't because of the trade embargo put in place? This is fair in your eyes? Or how about the first team organisation Korean SC2 teams tried to put in place to stop foreign teams from buying their players, even though they would get better salaries, better support in travelling to foreign events, etc? This is what I've been trying to say. All these kids compare Kespa with cartels, monopolies and even Nazi's and rally around the eSF "Think of the players" banner don't even know that only the prize money winners get anything and the ones who don't win get fucked even harder than the KeSPa B-Teamers. I'm beginning to think all this KeSPa hate is a bunch of entitled brats angry because they think KeSPa has deprived them of some entertainment. You don't think it's even a little wrong that teams under kespa didn't pay the minimum wage to practice partners/ b-teamers? And you think eSF do? Do eSF even provide food and lodge?
afaik the teams do provide food and lodge. Having said that, the difference between samsung not paying minimum wage and a small group of people playing together not getting paid a wage is pretty staggering, especially when those teams apparently have gigantic salaries for the top dog. You are right though, kespa teams do pay more, but the relative amount is minuscule.
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Unrelated: Wonder who gets paid more, the average Kespa player or the average EG player?
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On August 26 2012 02:18 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Unrelated: Wonder who gets paid more, the average Kespa player or the average EG player?
probably eg lmao.
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On August 26 2012 02:14 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 02:11 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 02:05 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 02:04 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:52 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 01:40 pencil_ethics wrote:On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:31 Ysellian wrote:On August 26 2012 01:21 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:13 pencil_ethics wrote:
To explain all this from a business perspective...
GOMTV Classic: New competing firm (Gretech) on the market, the big CARTEL (KeSPA) with its monopoly in players and $$$ basically decides to force it out of existence. In the business world they would call this anticompetitive and using market power to crush the little players: in fact business cartels are ILLEGAL. And I thought this was frowned upon. Guess not...
Current scenario: Same firm that got forcefully evicted from that other market now is the pioneer in this market. The cartel begs to gain entry and gets it, but tips its hand showing ambitions to use its power to turn the competitor's product into an inferior one to kill the smaller firm AGAIN. Those with an indirect stake in the smaller firm (eSF: note they don't own Gretech) decide to fight the cartel.
Now of course eSF != Gretech (under the current structure I believe Gretech is not represented in eSF), but Ongamenet is much closer to KeSPA (they have a seat on the strategy board at the very least, and its parent CJ is - surprise - a KeSPA member firm). Anyone who has been following the BW scene for a reasonable amount of time knows how much KeSPA has stifled the growth of even the Korean scene by keeping this artificial pro/amateur divide and using this to bully their own players into compliance. Also, KeSPA DID NOT create the Korean BW scene. It started as a grassroots thing from within Internet cafes. Big money came along and decided to swallow it whole. This is in fact a SOCIAL ISSUE in Korea, as the chaebol have far too much leverage over little firms (vertical/horizontal integration, monopsony, $$$, you name it).
tl;dr: Big guy trying to kill little guy. Succeeded once, now clearly trying again. Those with a stake in little guy decide to fight.
Monopolies and cartels are bad. Why is anyone rooting for the big guy here? So the NFL, NBA, NHL, FIFA, etc are monopolies and cartels too? Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them. And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws. Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have... Are we really arguing Kespa players get financially screwed now despite many GSL players not even getting salaries and none of them getting anything close to top Kespa salary? if anything the ESF trying to lock up these players in the interest of the teams, the trade embargo, etc all work against players far more than anything Kespa has done as of yet. What if hypothetically there's a player a Kespa team wants to pay big money for, like MMA, but they can't because of the trade embargo put in place? This is fair in your eyes? Or how about the first team organisation Korean SC2 teams tried to put in place to stop foreign teams from buying their players, even though they would get better salaries, better support in travelling to foreign events, etc? This is what I've been trying to say. All these kids compare Kespa with cartels, monopolies and even Nazi's and rally around the eSF "Think of the players" banner don't even know that only the prize money winners get anything and the ones who don't win get fucked even harder than the KeSPa B-Teamers. I'm beginning to think all this KeSPa hate is a bunch of entitled brats angry because they think KeSPa has deprived them of some entertainment. You don't think it's even a little wrong that teams under kespa didn't pay the minimum wage to practice partners/ b-teamers? Not even all B-teamers were paid, only ones on bigger teams. On August 26 2012 02:10 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 02:02 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:52 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 01:40 pencil_ethics wrote:On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:31 Ysellian wrote:On August 26 2012 01:21 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:13 pencil_ethics wrote:
To explain all this from a business perspective...
GOMTV Classic: New competing firm (Gretech) on the market, the big CARTEL (KeSPA) with its monopoly in players and $$$ basically decides to force it out of existence. In the business world they would call this anticompetitive and using market power to crush the little players: in fact business cartels are ILLEGAL. And I thought this was frowned upon. Guess not...
Current scenario: Same firm that got forcefully evicted from that other market now is the pioneer in this market. The cartel begs to gain entry and gets it, but tips its hand showing ambitions to use its power to turn the competitor's product into an inferior one to kill the smaller firm AGAIN. Those with an indirect stake in the smaller firm (eSF: note they don't own Gretech) decide to fight the cartel.
Now of course eSF != Gretech (under the current structure I believe Gretech is not represented in eSF), but Ongamenet is much closer to KeSPA (they have a seat on the strategy board at the very least, and its parent CJ is - surprise - a KeSPA member firm). Anyone who has been following the BW scene for a reasonable amount of time knows how much KeSPA has stifled the growth of even the Korean scene by keeping this artificial pro/amateur divide and using this to bully their own players into compliance. Also, KeSPA DID NOT create the Korean BW scene. It started as a grassroots thing from within Internet cafes. Big money came along and decided to swallow it whole. This is in fact a SOCIAL ISSUE in Korea, as the chaebol have far too much leverage over little firms (vertical/horizontal integration, monopsony, $$$, you name it).
tl;dr: Big guy trying to kill little guy. Succeeded once, now clearly trying again. Those with a stake in little guy decide to fight.
Monopolies and cartels are bad. Why is anyone rooting for the big guy here? So the NFL, NBA, NHL, FIFA, etc are monopolies and cartels too? Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them. And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws. Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have... Are we really arguing Kespa players get financially screwed now despite many GSL players not even getting salaries and none of them getting anything close to top Kespa salary? if anything the ESF trying to lock up these players in the interest of the teams, the trade embargo, etc all work against players far more than anything Kespa has done as of yet. What if hypothetically there's a player a Kespa team wants to pay big money for, like MMA, but they can't because of the trade embargo put in place? This is fair in your eyes? Or how about the first team organisation Korean SC2 teams tried to put in place to stop foreign teams from buying their players, even though they would get better salaries, better support in travelling to foreign events, etc? lol you mean these players that get 10 million won a year for being an A-teamer? (hint, that's not a lot) Players aren't paid shit unless they're Flash tier. Unless they are stars. Compare the average salary expense for GSTL teams and Kespa teams. Every sport is ridiculously top heavy with salaries. Kobe gets 30m a year and there are players getting 800k. You can complain about the relative pay scale all you want but they pay more on average, period. There are more Kespa players making comfortable living than there ever will be under GSL. But let's keep talking about protecting the players! 10 million won is below minimum wage for how much they work. TSL had 2 players getting salaries. 2 on their entire team. 10 million won (call it 9k a year?) plus free room and board, free food. I'm not saying it's good, but compare it to 0. GSL teams are virtually all dirt poor, but lets institute an embargo so good ones can't go to Kespa teams, we'll call it protecting them. And we're just arguing your completely hollow point about what one player makes compared to the completely undeniable fact that Kespa players are paid more
Players on both types of teams are undeniably paid like shit. I don't know where people are getting the idea that B-teamers on KeSPA teams are getting paid better than B-teamers on ESF teams; both of them are probably unpaid except for food and boarding or paid below minimum wage. The difference of course being that KeSPA has the money to spare, and the ESF teams ... not. (Note that I'm not saying that excuses any of them from exploiting the kids, but it is how it is.)
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On August 26 2012 02:14 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 02:11 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 02:05 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 02:04 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:52 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 01:40 pencil_ethics wrote:On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:31 Ysellian wrote:On August 26 2012 01:21 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:13 pencil_ethics wrote:
To explain all this from a business perspective...
GOMTV Classic: New competing firm (Gretech) on the market, the big CARTEL (KeSPA) with its monopoly in players and $$$ basically decides to force it out of existence. In the business world they would call this anticompetitive and using market power to crush the little players: in fact business cartels are ILLEGAL. And I thought this was frowned upon. Guess not...
Current scenario: Same firm that got forcefully evicted from that other market now is the pioneer in this market. The cartel begs to gain entry and gets it, but tips its hand showing ambitions to use its power to turn the competitor's product into an inferior one to kill the smaller firm AGAIN. Those with an indirect stake in the smaller firm (eSF: note they don't own Gretech) decide to fight the cartel.
Now of course eSF != Gretech (under the current structure I believe Gretech is not represented in eSF), but Ongamenet is much closer to KeSPA (they have a seat on the strategy board at the very least, and its parent CJ is - surprise - a KeSPA member firm). Anyone who has been following the BW scene for a reasonable amount of time knows how much KeSPA has stifled the growth of even the Korean scene by keeping this artificial pro/amateur divide and using this to bully their own players into compliance. Also, KeSPA DID NOT create the Korean BW scene. It started as a grassroots thing from within Internet cafes. Big money came along and decided to swallow it whole. This is in fact a SOCIAL ISSUE in Korea, as the chaebol have far too much leverage over little firms (vertical/horizontal integration, monopsony, $$$, you name it).
tl;dr: Big guy trying to kill little guy. Succeeded once, now clearly trying again. Those with a stake in little guy decide to fight.
Monopolies and cartels are bad. Why is anyone rooting for the big guy here? So the NFL, NBA, NHL, FIFA, etc are monopolies and cartels too? Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them. And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws. Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have... Are we really arguing Kespa players get financially screwed now despite many GSL players not even getting salaries and none of them getting anything close to top Kespa salary? if anything the ESF trying to lock up these players in the interest of the teams, the trade embargo, etc all work against players far more than anything Kespa has done as of yet. What if hypothetically there's a player a Kespa team wants to pay big money for, like MMA, but they can't because of the trade embargo put in place? This is fair in your eyes? Or how about the first team organisation Korean SC2 teams tried to put in place to stop foreign teams from buying their players, even though they would get better salaries, better support in travelling to foreign events, etc? This is what I've been trying to say. All these kids compare Kespa with cartels, monopolies and even Nazi's and rally around the eSF "Think of the players" banner don't even know that only the prize money winners get anything and the ones who don't win get fucked even harder than the KeSPa B-Teamers. I'm beginning to think all this KeSPa hate is a bunch of entitled brats angry because they think KeSPa has deprived them of some entertainment. You don't think it's even a little wrong that teams under kespa didn't pay the minimum wage to practice partners/ b-teamers? Not even all B-teamers were paid, only ones on bigger teams. On August 26 2012 02:10 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 02:02 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:52 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 01:40 pencil_ethics wrote:On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:31 Ysellian wrote:On August 26 2012 01:21 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:13 pencil_ethics wrote:
To explain all this from a business perspective...
GOMTV Classic: New competing firm (Gretech) on the market, the big CARTEL (KeSPA) with its monopoly in players and $$$ basically decides to force it out of existence. In the business world they would call this anticompetitive and using market power to crush the little players: in fact business cartels are ILLEGAL. And I thought this was frowned upon. Guess not...
Current scenario: Same firm that got forcefully evicted from that other market now is the pioneer in this market. The cartel begs to gain entry and gets it, but tips its hand showing ambitions to use its power to turn the competitor's product into an inferior one to kill the smaller firm AGAIN. Those with an indirect stake in the smaller firm (eSF: note they don't own Gretech) decide to fight the cartel.
Now of course eSF != Gretech (under the current structure I believe Gretech is not represented in eSF), but Ongamenet is much closer to KeSPA (they have a seat on the strategy board at the very least, and its parent CJ is - surprise - a KeSPA member firm). Anyone who has been following the BW scene for a reasonable amount of time knows how much KeSPA has stifled the growth of even the Korean scene by keeping this artificial pro/amateur divide and using this to bully their own players into compliance. Also, KeSPA DID NOT create the Korean BW scene. It started as a grassroots thing from within Internet cafes. Big money came along and decided to swallow it whole. This is in fact a SOCIAL ISSUE in Korea, as the chaebol have far too much leverage over little firms (vertical/horizontal integration, monopsony, $$$, you name it).
tl;dr: Big guy trying to kill little guy. Succeeded once, now clearly trying again. Those with a stake in little guy decide to fight.
Monopolies and cartels are bad. Why is anyone rooting for the big guy here? So the NFL, NBA, NHL, FIFA, etc are monopolies and cartels too? Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them. And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws. Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have... Are we really arguing Kespa players get financially screwed now despite many GSL players not even getting salaries and none of them getting anything close to top Kespa salary? if anything the ESF trying to lock up these players in the interest of the teams, the trade embargo, etc all work against players far more than anything Kespa has done as of yet. What if hypothetically there's a player a Kespa team wants to pay big money for, like MMA, but they can't because of the trade embargo put in place? This is fair in your eyes? Or how about the first team organisation Korean SC2 teams tried to put in place to stop foreign teams from buying their players, even though they would get better salaries, better support in travelling to foreign events, etc? lol you mean these players that get 10 million won a year for being an A-teamer? (hint, that's not a lot) Players aren't paid shit unless they're Flash tier. Unless they are stars. Compare the average salary expense for GSTL teams and Kespa teams. Every sport is ridiculously top heavy with salaries. Kobe gets 30m a year and there are players getting 800k. You can complain about the relative pay scale all you want but they pay more on average, period. There are more Kespa players making comfortable living than there ever will be under GSL. But let's keep talking about protecting the players! 10 million won is below minimum wage for how much they work. TSL had 2 players getting salaries. 2 on their entire team. 10 million won (call it 9k a year?) plus free room and board, free food. I'm not saying it's good, but compare it to 0. GSL teams are virtually all dirt poor, but lets institute an embargo so good ones can't go to Kespa teams, we'll call it protecting them. And we're just arguing your completely hollow point about what one player makes compared to the completely undeniable fact that Kespa players are paid more
KeSPA players are paid more? They don't pay B-Teamers. Other than those two TSL players they were all B-Team level players. TSL was very weak.
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On August 26 2012 02:11 Quarz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 02:08 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 02:03 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 01:57 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:55 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 00:47 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 00:40 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 00:19 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 00:16 rebdomine wrote:On August 26 2012 00:10 Mithriel wrote:
I'll side with esf for the entire thing! They did so much for sc2 in Korea and outside Korea! Happy they fight against kespa who just wants to step in and rule the sc2 scene. Fuck them yeah fuck them. fuck the association that is the reason why we even have korean esports. So what? That doesn't mean they should be able to waltz in and dictate everything in the scene. Hell they shouldn't even be dictating what their players can play in. Your employer should dictate what you work for. He simply should send you their money. Anyway if Kespa Player has problems is up to them to build up an player union. The ESF doesn't represent their interests. If Stork talks about he should maybe talk with other big famous player and do the player union. It like if CR7 says to RM, hey i wanna play in the premier legue next week, screw you RM. CR7 is under contract. The players are not under a labor contract. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=126075 But under a contract. A civil contract doesn't make you an employee, sorry. Doesn't matter. There a contract they signed them and suddenly the Kespa teams are evil. Okay you can be happy they are not employe. No one has ever said the KeSPA teams are evil, just KeSPA. But the teams stay there. If the sponsors find the Kespa so evil they can simply leave. But yeah thse big companies get now bullied by Kespa. It not ligical to find the KEspa evil, but the teams are all fine.
Kespa is made from the board of directors from the sponsors that own the teams .
On August 26 2012 02:21 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 02:14 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 02:11 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 02:05 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 02:04 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:52 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 01:40 pencil_ethics wrote:On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:31 Ysellian wrote:On August 26 2012 01:21 attackmoveftw wrote:
[quote]
So the NFL, NBA, NHL, FIFA, etc are monopolies and cartels too? Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them. And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws. Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have... Are we really arguing Kespa players get financially screwed now despite many GSL players not even getting salaries and none of them getting anything close to top Kespa salary? if anything the ESF trying to lock up these players in the interest of the teams, the trade embargo, etc all work against players far more than anything Kespa has done as of yet. What if hypothetically there's a player a Kespa team wants to pay big money for, like MMA, but they can't because of the trade embargo put in place? This is fair in your eyes? Or how about the first team organisation Korean SC2 teams tried to put in place to stop foreign teams from buying their players, even though they would get better salaries, better support in travelling to foreign events, etc? This is what I've been trying to say. All these kids compare Kespa with cartels, monopolies and even Nazi's and rally around the eSF "Think of the players" banner don't even know that only the prize money winners get anything and the ones who don't win get fucked even harder than the KeSPa B-Teamers. I'm beginning to think all this KeSPa hate is a bunch of entitled brats angry because they think KeSPa has deprived them of some entertainment. You don't think it's even a little wrong that teams under kespa didn't pay the minimum wage to practice partners/ b-teamers? Not even all B-teamers were paid, only ones on bigger teams. On August 26 2012 02:10 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 02:02 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:52 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 01:40 pencil_ethics wrote:On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:31 Ysellian wrote:On August 26 2012 01:21 attackmoveftw wrote:
[quote]
So the NFL, NBA, NHL, FIFA, etc are monopolies and cartels too? Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them. And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws. Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have... Are we really arguing Kespa players get financially screwed now despite many GSL players not even getting salaries and none of them getting anything close to top Kespa salary? if anything the ESF trying to lock up these players in the interest of the teams, the trade embargo, etc all work against players far more than anything Kespa has done as of yet. What if hypothetically there's a player a Kespa team wants to pay big money for, like MMA, but they can't because of the trade embargo put in place? This is fair in your eyes? Or how about the first team organisation Korean SC2 teams tried to put in place to stop foreign teams from buying their players, even though they would get better salaries, better support in travelling to foreign events, etc? lol you mean these players that get 10 million won a year for being an A-teamer? (hint, that's not a lot) Players aren't paid shit unless they're Flash tier. Unless they are stars. Compare the average salary expense for GSTL teams and Kespa teams. Every sport is ridiculously top heavy with salaries. Kobe gets 30m a year and there are players getting 800k. You can complain about the relative pay scale all you want but they pay more on average, period. There are more Kespa players making comfortable living than there ever will be under GSL. But let's keep talking about protecting the players! 10 million won is below minimum wage for how much they work. TSL had 2 players getting salaries. 2 on their entire team. 10 million won (call it 9k a year?) plus free room and board, free food. I'm not saying it's good, but compare it to 0. GSL teams are virtually all dirt poor, but lets institute an embargo so good ones can't go to Kespa teams, we'll call it protecting them. And we're just arguing your completely hollow point about what one player makes compared to the completely undeniable fact that Kespa players are paid more KeSPA players are paid more? They don't pay B-Teamers. Other than those two TSL players they were all B-Team level players. TSL was very weak.
Nowadays does Kespa even have many B-teamers ? I don't believe they hold courage anymore and recruit only scouted talents or so i assume . I would like to know if they still hold the tournament and recruit new blood ? B -teamers are the ones that are left stuck there trying to improve and play in PL . They still get food and a shelter and some minimal salary for their efforts i assume which is still better then the code-b or code - A no names that are on the ESF teams . A - teamers probably practise a lot more on ladder and custom games between progamer friends .
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EPT
