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On August 26 2012 02:21 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 02:14 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 02:11 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 02:05 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 02:04 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:52 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 01:40 pencil_ethics wrote:On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:31 Ysellian wrote:On August 26 2012 01:21 attackmoveftw wrote:
[quote]
So the NFL, NBA, NHL, FIFA, etc are monopolies and cartels too? Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them. And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws. Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have... Are we really arguing Kespa players get financially screwed now despite many GSL players not even getting salaries and none of them getting anything close to top Kespa salary? if anything the ESF trying to lock up these players in the interest of the teams, the trade embargo, etc all work against players far more than anything Kespa has done as of yet. What if hypothetically there's a player a Kespa team wants to pay big money for, like MMA, but they can't because of the trade embargo put in place? This is fair in your eyes? Or how about the first team organisation Korean SC2 teams tried to put in place to stop foreign teams from buying their players, even though they would get better salaries, better support in travelling to foreign events, etc? This is what I've been trying to say. All these kids compare Kespa with cartels, monopolies and even Nazi's and rally around the eSF "Think of the players" banner don't even know that only the prize money winners get anything and the ones who don't win get fucked even harder than the KeSPa B-Teamers. I'm beginning to think all this KeSPa hate is a bunch of entitled brats angry because they think KeSPa has deprived them of some entertainment. You don't think it's even a little wrong that teams under kespa didn't pay the minimum wage to practice partners/ b-teamers? Not even all B-teamers were paid, only ones on bigger teams. On August 26 2012 02:10 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 02:02 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:52 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 01:40 pencil_ethics wrote:On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:31 Ysellian wrote:On August 26 2012 01:21 attackmoveftw wrote:
[quote]
So the NFL, NBA, NHL, FIFA, etc are monopolies and cartels too? Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them. And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws. Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have... Are we really arguing Kespa players get financially screwed now despite many GSL players not even getting salaries and none of them getting anything close to top Kespa salary? if anything the ESF trying to lock up these players in the interest of the teams, the trade embargo, etc all work against players far more than anything Kespa has done as of yet. What if hypothetically there's a player a Kespa team wants to pay big money for, like MMA, but they can't because of the trade embargo put in place? This is fair in your eyes? Or how about the first team organisation Korean SC2 teams tried to put in place to stop foreign teams from buying their players, even though they would get better salaries, better support in travelling to foreign events, etc? lol you mean these players that get 10 million won a year for being an A-teamer? (hint, that's not a lot) Players aren't paid shit unless they're Flash tier. Unless they are stars. Compare the average salary expense for GSTL teams and Kespa teams. Every sport is ridiculously top heavy with salaries. Kobe gets 30m a year and there are players getting 800k. You can complain about the relative pay scale all you want but they pay more on average, period. There are more Kespa players making comfortable living than there ever will be under GSL. But let's keep talking about protecting the players! 10 million won is below minimum wage for how much they work. TSL had 2 players getting salaries. 2 on their entire team. 10 million won (call it 9k a year?) plus free room and board, free food. I'm not saying it's good, but compare it to 0. GSL teams are virtually all dirt poor, but lets institute an embargo so good ones can't go to Kespa teams, we'll call it protecting them. And we're just arguing your completely hollow point about what one player makes compared to the completely undeniable fact that Kespa players are paid more KeSPA players are paid more? They don't pay B-Teamers. Other than those two TSL players they were all B-Team level players. TSL was very weak.
And yet they were the first GSTL team out of any of them to even have salaries, and nothing has changed, they are all still poor except Slayers, who isn't a part of the ESF
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Based on the negative reactions of Korean netizens on boards like PlayXP and Fomos, I hope the viewers take a stand in this dispute and boycott KeSPA sanctioned leagues unless the dispute is resolved in a manner beneficial for both parties and instead divert their attention towards the GSL.
I would absolutely love it if OGN's Korean viewership plummeted and GOM's skyrocketed in the wake of this fiasco.
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On August 26 2012 02:23 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 02:11 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 02:08 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 02:03 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 01:57 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:55 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 00:47 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 00:40 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 00:19 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 00:16 rebdomine wrote:
[quote]
yeah fuck them. fuck the association that is the reason why we even have korean esports. So what? That doesn't mean they should be able to waltz in and dictate everything in the scene. Hell they shouldn't even be dictating what their players can play in. Your employer should dictate what you work for. He simply should send you their money. Anyway if Kespa Player has problems is up to them to build up an player union. The ESF doesn't represent their interests. If Stork talks about he should maybe talk with other big famous player and do the player union. It like if CR7 says to RM, hey i wanna play in the premier legue next week, screw you RM. CR7 is under contract. The players are not under a labor contract. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=126075 But under a contract. A civil contract doesn't make you an employee, sorry. Doesn't matter. There a contract they signed them and suddenly the Kespa teams are evil. Okay you can be happy they are not employe. No one has ever said the KeSPA teams are evil, just KeSPA. But the teams stay there. If the sponsors find the Kespa so evil they can simply leave. But yeah thse big companies get now bullied by Kespa. It not ligical to find the KEspa evil, but the teams are all fine. Kespa is made from the board of directors from the sponsors that own the teams .
True, thats why it's illogical, to say Kespa is evil but the teams are fine.
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On August 26 2012 02:26 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 02:21 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 02:14 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 02:11 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 02:05 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 02:04 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:52 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 01:40 pencil_ethics wrote:On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:31 Ysellian wrote:
[quote]
Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them. And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws. Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have... Are we really arguing Kespa players get financially screwed now despite many GSL players not even getting salaries and none of them getting anything close to top Kespa salary? if anything the ESF trying to lock up these players in the interest of the teams, the trade embargo, etc all work against players far more than anything Kespa has done as of yet. What if hypothetically there's a player a Kespa team wants to pay big money for, like MMA, but they can't because of the trade embargo put in place? This is fair in your eyes? Or how about the first team organisation Korean SC2 teams tried to put in place to stop foreign teams from buying their players, even though they would get better salaries, better support in travelling to foreign events, etc? This is what I've been trying to say. All these kids compare Kespa with cartels, monopolies and even Nazi's and rally around the eSF "Think of the players" banner don't even know that only the prize money winners get anything and the ones who don't win get fucked even harder than the KeSPa B-Teamers. I'm beginning to think all this KeSPa hate is a bunch of entitled brats angry because they think KeSPa has deprived them of some entertainment. You don't think it's even a little wrong that teams under kespa didn't pay the minimum wage to practice partners/ b-teamers? Not even all B-teamers were paid, only ones on bigger teams. On August 26 2012 02:10 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 02:02 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:52 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 01:40 pencil_ethics wrote:On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:31 Ysellian wrote:
[quote]
Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them. And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws. Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have... Are we really arguing Kespa players get financially screwed now despite many GSL players not even getting salaries and none of them getting anything close to top Kespa salary? if anything the ESF trying to lock up these players in the interest of the teams, the trade embargo, etc all work against players far more than anything Kespa has done as of yet. What if hypothetically there's a player a Kespa team wants to pay big money for, like MMA, but they can't because of the trade embargo put in place? This is fair in your eyes? Or how about the first team organisation Korean SC2 teams tried to put in place to stop foreign teams from buying their players, even though they would get better salaries, better support in travelling to foreign events, etc? lol you mean these players that get 10 million won a year for being an A-teamer? (hint, that's not a lot) Players aren't paid shit unless they're Flash tier. Unless they are stars. Compare the average salary expense for GSTL teams and Kespa teams. Every sport is ridiculously top heavy with salaries. Kobe gets 30m a year and there are players getting 800k. You can complain about the relative pay scale all you want but they pay more on average, period. There are more Kespa players making comfortable living than there ever will be under GSL. But let's keep talking about protecting the players! 10 million won is below minimum wage for how much they work. TSL had 2 players getting salaries. 2 on their entire team. 10 million won (call it 9k a year?) plus free room and board, free food. I'm not saying it's good, but compare it to 0. GSL teams are virtually all dirt poor, but lets institute an embargo so good ones can't go to Kespa teams, we'll call it protecting them. And we're just arguing your completely hollow point about what one player makes compared to the completely undeniable fact that Kespa players are paid more KeSPA players are paid more? They don't pay B-Teamers. Other than those two TSL players they were all B-Team level players. TSL was very weak. And yet they were the first GSTL team out of any of them to even have salaries, and nothing has changed, they are all still poor except Slayers, who isn't a part of the ESF
SlayerS has a big sponsor in Pocari, which is mainly BoxeR's doing.
Oh and that's because TSL is run by Coach Lee, who was with MBCGame. He implemented the system that he knew.
On August 26 2012 02:29 Quarz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 02:23 raga4ka wrote:On August 26 2012 02:11 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 02:08 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 02:03 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 01:57 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:55 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 00:47 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 00:40 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 00:19 Femari wrote:
[quote]
So what?
That doesn't mean they should be able to waltz in and dictate everything in the scene. Hell they shouldn't even be dictating what their players can play in. Your employer should dictate what you work for. He simply should send you their money. Anyway if Kespa Player has problems is up to them to build up an player union. The ESF doesn't represent their interests. If Stork talks about he should maybe talk with other big famous player and do the player union. It like if CR7 says to RM, hey i wanna play in the premier legue next week, screw you RM. CR7 is under contract. The players are not under a labor contract. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=126075 But under a contract. A civil contract doesn't make you an employee, sorry. Doesn't matter. There a contract they signed them and suddenly the Kespa teams are evil. Okay you can be happy they are not employe. No one has ever said the KeSPA teams are evil, just KeSPA. But the teams stay there. If the sponsors find the Kespa so evil they can simply leave. But yeah thse big companies get now bullied by Kespa. It not ligical to find the KEspa evil, but the teams are all fine. Kespa is made from the board of directors from the sponsors that own the teams . True, thats why it's illogical, to say Kespa is evil but the teams are fine.
When I say "Manchester United has a great team this year" what do you think of, players or owners?
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On August 26 2012 02:29 Quarz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 02:23 raga4ka wrote:On August 26 2012 02:11 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 02:08 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 02:03 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 01:57 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:55 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 00:47 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 00:40 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 00:19 Femari wrote:
[quote]
So what?
That doesn't mean they should be able to waltz in and dictate everything in the scene. Hell they shouldn't even be dictating what their players can play in. Your employer should dictate what you work for. He simply should send you their money. Anyway if Kespa Player has problems is up to them to build up an player union. The ESF doesn't represent their interests. If Stork talks about he should maybe talk with other big famous player and do the player union. It like if CR7 says to RM, hey i wanna play in the premier legue next week, screw you RM. CR7 is under contract. The players are not under a labor contract. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=126075 But under a contract. A civil contract doesn't make you an employee, sorry. Doesn't matter. There a contract they signed them and suddenly the Kespa teams are evil. Okay you can be happy they are not employe. No one has ever said the KeSPA teams are evil, just KeSPA. But the teams stay there. If the sponsors find the Kespa so evil they can simply leave. But yeah thse big companies get now bullied by Kespa. It not ligical to find the KEspa evil, but the teams are all fine. Kespa is made from the board of directors from the sponsors that own the teams . True, thats why it's illogical, to say Kespa is evil but the teams are fine.
I'd like to think that there is a difference between a sponsor and a team, but I guess not.
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On August 26 2012 02:26 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 02:21 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 02:14 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 02:11 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 02:05 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 02:04 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:52 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 01:40 pencil_ethics wrote:On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:31 Ysellian wrote:
[quote]
Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them. And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws. Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have... Are we really arguing Kespa players get financially screwed now despite many GSL players not even getting salaries and none of them getting anything close to top Kespa salary? if anything the ESF trying to lock up these players in the interest of the teams, the trade embargo, etc all work against players far more than anything Kespa has done as of yet. What if hypothetically there's a player a Kespa team wants to pay big money for, like MMA, but they can't because of the trade embargo put in place? This is fair in your eyes? Or how about the first team organisation Korean SC2 teams tried to put in place to stop foreign teams from buying their players, even though they would get better salaries, better support in travelling to foreign events, etc? This is what I've been trying to say. All these kids compare Kespa with cartels, monopolies and even Nazi's and rally around the eSF "Think of the players" banner don't even know that only the prize money winners get anything and the ones who don't win get fucked even harder than the KeSPa B-Teamers. I'm beginning to think all this KeSPa hate is a bunch of entitled brats angry because they think KeSPa has deprived them of some entertainment. You don't think it's even a little wrong that teams under kespa didn't pay the minimum wage to practice partners/ b-teamers? Not even all B-teamers were paid, only ones on bigger teams. On August 26 2012 02:10 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 02:02 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:52 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 01:40 pencil_ethics wrote:On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:31 Ysellian wrote:
[quote]
Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them. And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws. Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have... Are we really arguing Kespa players get financially screwed now despite many GSL players not even getting salaries and none of them getting anything close to top Kespa salary? if anything the ESF trying to lock up these players in the interest of the teams, the trade embargo, etc all work against players far more than anything Kespa has done as of yet. What if hypothetically there's a player a Kespa team wants to pay big money for, like MMA, but they can't because of the trade embargo put in place? This is fair in your eyes? Or how about the first team organisation Korean SC2 teams tried to put in place to stop foreign teams from buying their players, even though they would get better salaries, better support in travelling to foreign events, etc? lol you mean these players that get 10 million won a year for being an A-teamer? (hint, that's not a lot) Players aren't paid shit unless they're Flash tier. Unless they are stars. Compare the average salary expense for GSTL teams and Kespa teams. Every sport is ridiculously top heavy with salaries. Kobe gets 30m a year and there are players getting 800k. You can complain about the relative pay scale all you want but they pay more on average, period. There are more Kespa players making comfortable living than there ever will be under GSL. But let's keep talking about protecting the players! 10 million won is below minimum wage for how much they work. TSL had 2 players getting salaries. 2 on their entire team. 10 million won (call it 9k a year?) plus free room and board, free food. I'm not saying it's good, but compare it to 0. GSL teams are virtually all dirt poor, but lets institute an embargo so good ones can't go to Kespa teams, we'll call it protecting them. And we're just arguing your completely hollow point about what one player makes compared to the completely undeniable fact that Kespa players are paid more KeSPA players are paid more? They don't pay B-Teamers. Other than those two TSL players they were all B-Team level players. TSL was very weak. And yet they were the first GSTL team out of any of them to even have salaries, and nothing has changed, they are all still poor except Slayers, who isn't a part of the ESF
couldn't be more wrong. IM picked up LG as a huge sponsor. StarTale picked up RedBull as a huge sponsor. MVP got HotSix now too. The ESF teams have been picking up more and more sponsors as of late.
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On August 26 2012 02:27 Clbull wrote:
Based on the negative reactions of Korean netizens on boards like PlayXP and Fomos, I hope the viewers take a stand in this dispute and boycott KeSPA sanctioned leagues unless the dispute is resolved in a manner beneficial for both parties and instead divert their attention towards the GSL.
I would absolutely love it if OGN's Korean viewership plummeted and GOM's skyrocketed in the wake of this fiasco.
I highly doubt that GOM's viewership would grow even a bit without the Kespa players playing in GSL as well and it would be absolutely horrible for the whole scene in Korea if the OGN's viewership plummets. This whole thing is horrible for everyone
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On August 26 2012 02:34 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 02:26 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 02:21 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 02:14 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 02:11 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 02:05 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 02:04 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:52 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 01:40 pencil_ethics wrote:On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:
[quote]
And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws. Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have... Are we really arguing Kespa players get financially screwed now despite many GSL players not even getting salaries and none of them getting anything close to top Kespa salary? if anything the ESF trying to lock up these players in the interest of the teams, the trade embargo, etc all work against players far more than anything Kespa has done as of yet. What if hypothetically there's a player a Kespa team wants to pay big money for, like MMA, but they can't because of the trade embargo put in place? This is fair in your eyes? Or how about the first team organisation Korean SC2 teams tried to put in place to stop foreign teams from buying their players, even though they would get better salaries, better support in travelling to foreign events, etc? This is what I've been trying to say. All these kids compare Kespa with cartels, monopolies and even Nazi's and rally around the eSF "Think of the players" banner don't even know that only the prize money winners get anything and the ones who don't win get fucked even harder than the KeSPa B-Teamers. I'm beginning to think all this KeSPa hate is a bunch of entitled brats angry because they think KeSPa has deprived them of some entertainment. You don't think it's even a little wrong that teams under kespa didn't pay the minimum wage to practice partners/ b-teamers? Not even all B-teamers were paid, only ones on bigger teams. On August 26 2012 02:10 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 02:02 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:52 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 01:40 pencil_ethics wrote:On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:
[quote]
And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws. Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have... Are we really arguing Kespa players get financially screwed now despite many GSL players not even getting salaries and none of them getting anything close to top Kespa salary? if anything the ESF trying to lock up these players in the interest of the teams, the trade embargo, etc all work against players far more than anything Kespa has done as of yet. What if hypothetically there's a player a Kespa team wants to pay big money for, like MMA, but they can't because of the trade embargo put in place? This is fair in your eyes? Or how about the first team organisation Korean SC2 teams tried to put in place to stop foreign teams from buying their players, even though they would get better salaries, better support in travelling to foreign events, etc? lol you mean these players that get 10 million won a year for being an A-teamer? (hint, that's not a lot) Players aren't paid shit unless they're Flash tier. Unless they are stars. Compare the average salary expense for GSTL teams and Kespa teams. Every sport is ridiculously top heavy with salaries. Kobe gets 30m a year and there are players getting 800k. You can complain about the relative pay scale all you want but they pay more on average, period. There are more Kespa players making comfortable living than there ever will be under GSL. But let's keep talking about protecting the players! 10 million won is below minimum wage for how much they work. TSL had 2 players getting salaries. 2 on their entire team. 10 million won (call it 9k a year?) plus free room and board, free food. I'm not saying it's good, but compare it to 0. GSL teams are virtually all dirt poor, but lets institute an embargo so good ones can't go to Kespa teams, we'll call it protecting them. And we're just arguing your completely hollow point about what one player makes compared to the completely undeniable fact that Kespa players are paid more KeSPA players are paid more? They don't pay B-Teamers. Other than those two TSL players they were all B-Team level players. TSL was very weak. And yet they were the first GSTL team out of any of them to even have salaries, and nothing has changed, they are all still poor except Slayers, who isn't a part of the ESF couldn't be more wrong. IM picked up LG as a huge sponsor. StarTale picked up RedBull as a huge sponsor. MVP got HotSix now too. The ESF teams have been picking up more and more sponsors as of late.
Does fxo not count as a big company?
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kespa just got owned. In the most fantastic, most deserved way possible. good bye OSL till you start behaving <3333
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On August 26 2012 02:35 Darneck wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 02:27 Clbull wrote:
Based on the negative reactions of Korean netizens on boards like PlayXP and Fomos, I hope the viewers take a stand in this dispute and boycott KeSPA sanctioned leagues unless the dispute is resolved in a manner beneficial for both parties and instead divert their attention towards the GSL.
I would absolutely love it if OGN's Korean viewership plummeted and GOM's skyrocketed in the wake of this fiasco. I highly doubt that GOM's viewership would grow even a bit without the Kespa players playing in GSL as well and it would be absolutely horrible for the whole scene in Korea if the OGN's viewership plummets. This whole thing is horrible for everyone
But it's definitely better for the scene to have OGNs viewership plummet than to have them have the leverage to attempt to kill off gom again.
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On August 26 2012 02:31 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 02:29 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 02:23 raga4ka wrote:On August 26 2012 02:11 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 02:08 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 02:03 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 01:57 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:55 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 00:47 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 00:40 Quarz wrote:
[quote]
Your employer should dictate what you work for. He simply should send you their money. Anyway if Kespa Player has problems is up to them to build up an player union. The ESF doesn't represent their interests. If Stork talks about he should maybe talk with other big famous player and do the player union.
It like if CR7 says to RM, hey i wanna play in the premier legue next week, screw you RM. CR7 is under contract. The players are not under a labor contract. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=126075 But under a contract. A civil contract doesn't make you an employee, sorry. Doesn't matter. There a contract they signed them and suddenly the Kespa teams are evil. Okay you can be happy they are not employe. No one has ever said the KeSPA teams are evil, just KeSPA. But the teams stay there. If the sponsors find the Kespa so evil they can simply leave. But yeah thse big companies get now bullied by Kespa. It not ligical to find the KEspa evil, but the teams are all fine. Kespa is made from the board of directors from the sponsors that own the teams . True, thats why it's illogical, to say Kespa is evil but the teams are fine. I'd like to think that there is a difference between a sponsor and a team, but I guess not.
So a the team is named Samsung Khan. It only a coincidence, that the sponsors name and the name of the team have samsung in them.
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On August 26 2012 02:31 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 02:29 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 02:23 raga4ka wrote:On August 26 2012 02:11 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 02:08 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 02:03 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 01:57 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:55 Quarz wrote:On August 26 2012 00:47 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 00:40 Quarz wrote:
[quote]
Your employer should dictate what you work for. He simply should send you their money. Anyway if Kespa Player has problems is up to them to build up an player union. The ESF doesn't represent their interests. If Stork talks about he should maybe talk with other big famous player and do the player union.
It like if CR7 says to RM, hey i wanna play in the premier legue next week, screw you RM. CR7 is under contract. The players are not under a labor contract. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=126075 But under a contract. A civil contract doesn't make you an employee, sorry. Doesn't matter. There a contract they signed them and suddenly the Kespa teams are evil. Okay you can be happy they are not employe. No one has ever said the KeSPA teams are evil, just KeSPA. But the teams stay there. If the sponsors find the Kespa so evil they can simply leave. But yeah thse big companies get now bullied by Kespa. It not ligical to find the KEspa evil, but the teams are all fine. Kespa is made from the board of directors from the sponsors that own the teams . True, thats why it's illogical, to say Kespa is evil but the teams are fine. I'd like to think that there is a difference between a sponsor and a team, but I guess not.
Thats just how Kespa works . Outside of it other team's sponsors don't exactly own the teams or so i assume .
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On August 26 2012 02:26 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 02:21 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 02:14 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 02:11 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 02:05 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 02:04 attackmoveftw wrote:On August 26 2012 01:52 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 01:40 pencil_ethics wrote:On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:31 Ysellian wrote:
[quote]
Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them. And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws. Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have... Are we really arguing Kespa players get financially screwed now despite many GSL players not even getting salaries and none of them getting anything close to top Kespa salary? if anything the ESF trying to lock up these players in the interest of the teams, the trade embargo, etc all work against players far more than anything Kespa has done as of yet. What if hypothetically there's a player a Kespa team wants to pay big money for, like MMA, but they can't because of the trade embargo put in place? This is fair in your eyes? Or how about the first team organisation Korean SC2 teams tried to put in place to stop foreign teams from buying their players, even though they would get better salaries, better support in travelling to foreign events, etc? This is what I've been trying to say. All these kids compare Kespa with cartels, monopolies and even Nazi's and rally around the eSF "Think of the players" banner don't even know that only the prize money winners get anything and the ones who don't win get fucked even harder than the KeSPa B-Teamers. I'm beginning to think all this KeSPa hate is a bunch of entitled brats angry because they think KeSPa has deprived them of some entertainment. You don't think it's even a little wrong that teams under kespa didn't pay the minimum wage to practice partners/ b-teamers? Not even all B-teamers were paid, only ones on bigger teams. On August 26 2012 02:10 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 02:02 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:52 floor exercise wrote:On August 26 2012 01:40 pencil_ethics wrote:On August 26 2012 01:36 Femari wrote:On August 26 2012 01:31 Ysellian wrote:
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Actually yes. Fifa are a bunch of scum and nobody seems capable of challenging them. And the NFL has a history of breaking anti-monopoly laws. Also see the recent NBA player strikes and the 1994 MLB players' strike. Of course all these big groups have their power checked by the players' unions, or else big money would have long screwed them over (and indeed they tried to). Now guess what KeSPA players don't have... Are we really arguing Kespa players get financially screwed now despite many GSL players not even getting salaries and none of them getting anything close to top Kespa salary? if anything the ESF trying to lock up these players in the interest of the teams, the trade embargo, etc all work against players far more than anything Kespa has done as of yet. What if hypothetically there's a player a Kespa team wants to pay big money for, like MMA, but they can't because of the trade embargo put in place? This is fair in your eyes? Or how about the first team organisation Korean SC2 teams tried to put in place to stop foreign teams from buying their players, even though they would get better salaries, better support in travelling to foreign events, etc? lol you mean these players that get 10 million won a year for being an A-teamer? (hint, that's not a lot) Players aren't paid shit unless they're Flash tier. Unless they are stars. Compare the average salary expense for GSTL teams and Kespa teams. Every sport is ridiculously top heavy with salaries. Kobe gets 30m a year and there are players getting 800k. You can complain about the relative pay scale all you want but they pay more on average, period. There are more Kespa players making comfortable living than there ever will be under GSL. But let's keep talking about protecting the players! 10 million won is below minimum wage for how much they work. TSL had 2 players getting salaries. 2 on their entire team. 10 million won (call it 9k a year?) plus free room and board, free food. I'm not saying it's good, but compare it to 0. GSL teams are virtually all dirt poor, but lets institute an embargo so good ones can't go to Kespa teams, we'll call it protecting them. And we're just arguing your completely hollow point about what one player makes compared to the completely undeniable fact that Kespa players are paid more KeSPA players are paid more? They don't pay B-Teamers. Other than those two TSL players they were all B-Team level players. TSL was very weak. And yet they were the first GSTL team out of any of them to even have salaries, and nothing has changed, they are all still poor except Slayers, who isn't a part of the ESF
Do you not follow the scene at all? ESF teams are a lot better off now than they were back then. We won't even start with ST (which has somehow accumulated the cash to a.) buy a whole new building, b.) build a pro-LoL team, and c.) cannibalize ZeNEX and have the space to house them, all within the past year). TSL has repeatedly been rumored to be one of the richest teams in the ESF, due to the profits that Lee rakes in from his PC Bang in addition to the shit ton of sponsors he managed to grab when he first nabbed FD and Trickster for his team. Prime is no longer in danger of collapsing and has picked up a few more sponsors and their clothing store is apparently doing very well, IM is heavily sponsored (as they well should be). NSHS ... is still in the same position it's been in since its inception, which certainly isn't worse. fOu is now FXO and has plenty of money to throw around.
This isn't "poor." It's worse than KeSPA (obviously), but it's not like they groveling for pennies in the dirt, which is what you make it sound like. Top players on ESF are salaried; it's just that they don't make as much as the top players on KeSPA teams.
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On August 26 2012 02:35 Darneck wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 02:27 Clbull wrote:
Based on the negative reactions of Korean netizens on boards like PlayXP and Fomos, I hope the viewers take a stand in this dispute and boycott KeSPA sanctioned leagues unless the dispute is resolved in a manner beneficial for both parties and instead divert their attention towards the GSL.
I would absolutely love it if OGN's Korean viewership plummeted and GOM's skyrocketed in the wake of this fiasco. I highly doubt that GOM's viewership would grow even a bit without the Kespa players playing in GSL as well and it would be absolutely horrible for the whole scene in Korea if the OGN's viewership plummets. This whole thing is horrible for everyone
Horrible for Korea? Yes. Definitely.
For the rest of the world, not as much. :/
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On August 26 2012 02:45 JiPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 02:35 Darneck wrote:On August 26 2012 02:27 Clbull wrote:
Based on the negative reactions of Korean netizens on boards like PlayXP and Fomos, I hope the viewers take a stand in this dispute and boycott KeSPA sanctioned leagues unless the dispute is resolved in a manner beneficial for both parties and instead divert their attention towards the GSL.
I would absolutely love it if OGN's Korean viewership plummeted and GOM's skyrocketed in the wake of this fiasco. I highly doubt that GOM's viewership would grow even a bit without the Kespa players playing in GSL as well and it would be absolutely horrible for the whole scene in Korea if the OGN's viewership plummets. This whole thing is horrible for everyone Horrible for Korea? Yes. Definitely. For the rest of the world, not as much. :/
It would still hurt if the Korean scene starts to fade, that doesn't look good to people looking at it deciding on whether or not they want to put money into the industry.
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I doubt that the Korean SC2 "market" is going to grow significantly anyways. It's sad, but I don't think it's an unfair assessment of the situation from what I can tell.
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On August 26 2012 02:46 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 02:45 JiPrime wrote:On August 26 2012 02:35 Darneck wrote:On August 26 2012 02:27 Clbull wrote:
Based on the negative reactions of Korean netizens on boards like PlayXP and Fomos, I hope the viewers take a stand in this dispute and boycott KeSPA sanctioned leagues unless the dispute is resolved in a manner beneficial for both parties and instead divert their attention towards the GSL.
I would absolutely love it if OGN's Korean viewership plummeted and GOM's skyrocketed in the wake of this fiasco. I highly doubt that GOM's viewership would grow even a bit without the Kespa players playing in GSL as well and it would be absolutely horrible for the whole scene in Korea if the OGN's viewership plummets. This whole thing is horrible for everyone Horrible for Korea? Yes. Definitely. For the rest of the world, not as much. :/ It would still hurt if the Korean scene starts to fade, that doesn't look good to people looking at it deciding on whether or not they want to put money into the industry.
Obviously if the Korean SC2 scene goes *poof* right now, then yeah, it'll hurt the foreign scene quite alot.
But even if things turn for worse right now, I don't think Korean SC2 scene will go down right away.
Anyways, the Korean mainstreams' hate on video games are on all-time high right now.
I highly doubt Korean SC2 scene will take off, even with KeSPA playing along nicely.
The only way to rejuvenate the Korean SC2 scene, or rather the Korean eSports scene in general, is to have the foreign scene be so successful that the numerous influential Korean westaboos take notice and quell the gaming stigma.
Edit: It's kinda degrading for me as a Korean to say this, but quite a lot of us, and I mean a lot, have a thing for popular stuff in Europe/America.
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Did you see the audience for today's WCS finals? It was in a small studio that could only fit a few seats and almost half of them were foreigners. The previous GSL finals were a big embarrassment for GOM because they prepared a huge event but hardly anyone showed up. Apparently, GSL5 will be in Las Vegas or something. All the BW fans are long gone and only a few stragglers are left at PlayXP and Fomos. During the final-final sets of Squirtle vs Creator, the major topic of discussion at PlayXP was whether height is genetic or environmental. lol
SC2 is dead in Korea already.
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Both sides acting like teenaged girls
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On August 26 2012 03:05 attackmoveftw wrote:
Did you see the audience for today's WCS finals? It was in a small studio that could only fit a few seats and almost half of them were foreigners. The previous GSL finals were a big embarrassment for GOM because they prepared a huge event but hardly anyone showed up. Apparently, GSL5 will be in Las Vegas or something. All the BW fans are long gone and only a few stragglers are left at PlayXP and Fomos. During the final-final sets of Squirtle vs Creator, the major topic of discussion at PlayXP was whether height is genetic or environmental. lol
SC2 is dead in Korea already.
That's quite a reach. Proof?
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EPT
