EPTI hate PvP and XvZ
You're killing my esports
Why you shouldnt be playing random on ladder. - Page 5
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FliedLice
Germany7494 Posts
I hate PvP and XvZ You're killing my esports | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On August 23 2012 08:29 Fyrewolf wrote: This argument can only work if there is one and ONLY one viable way to play a matchup. Since there are many viable ways to approach each matchup, "standard" is a highly relative term that encompasses multiple styles. You can learn about the matchup from any game just fine regardless of the opener, including practicing/learning relative timings, mechanics, scouting, everything else, etc. If you are trying argue for practicing/learning to perfect a specific build for a specific matchup and complaining that ladder isn't giving you that specific matchup, well that's what practice partners are for, so it's entirely moot. I read it like this: The OP has a (decently defensible) belief that there is only one "best" way to play PvZ. Because this "best" way can only be done against Zerg and not the other races, the random race mechanic forces him to play a small number of PvZ's (the PvR*Zs) suboptimally, according to his views on the matchup. If you believe FFE is the best way to play PvZ, then yes, playing against a Random player as Protoss is a disadvantage for the Protoss player. | ||
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OkStyX
Canada1199 Posts
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thurst0n
United States611 Posts
Also, you are not playing random. By definition of your description of how you choose to play the game, and by association your race. You state: "Like I choose terran for 10 games in a row then switch, etc.", by any vernacular definition of the word random that is not random. I believe you meant to say "I play all races". If you were to roll a dice to decide what race you would then play, you could claim that you play random. You could also try to claim that you have advantage over 'True Random' players because you are allowed to practice the current metagame in all of your games from the very beginning of the game. (which I believe is wrong, because as I'll explain below, it would be better to create a new meta-game) I'm not sure if it's hatred or if it's fear of random that everyone seems to have, perhaps both. By your method of choosing a race to play every benefit that is inherent to random is given up, and yet you still have every disadvantage that trying to learn 3 different races entails. You are allowing your opponent to play their most prepared build order, and know that they are doing that before the game starts. All the while, you still have to learn how to play all 3 races against his or her particular race. It seems to me that the best players quickly learn how burdonsome playing random can be. I can only imagine the thought of doing decently well in a tournament, and just that nagging feeling of what 'could have been' if you only had to study/prepare for 3-matchups. I believe this to be the main cause of random not being represented in tournaments. In your example, the zerg player up against a random player is FORCED to play a certain way. Isn't that like the best definition of what metagame truly is on it's most basic level. It's what inherently comes out of what your opponent is ABLE to do. + Show Spoiler + Hint: They can't do X because they were FORCED to do Y...OR... They were only ABLE to do Y because doing X will get you killed + Show Spoiler + ;-) see what I did there? Playing Random has Unmatched and Untapped Potential. What if Jaedong started playing random? He would literally create a new meta-game for each match-up. And some of the 'meta's' would even be specific to playing against other random players. Just like you said, you have to adjust to a random player if you come across them on ladder. Now you're playing a sub-optimal build in order to be more safe early. The random player should know this(before the game even starts) and be able to take advantage of their opponent being restricted/limited in their choice of build order. Of course if the 'Natural Race' player knows that the Random player's best play would be to exploit that weakness, then he/she should be able to overcome any inherent build order loss by 'meta-ing' their opponent, but of course the random player knows that etc, etc....etc. If you look at normal Meta's like TvP, or PvZ, or TvZ. There are certainly disadvantages to choosing any given build, but they are accepted disadvantages because they provide an advantage somewhere else. If you go fast expand, you have less units now, but more econ now, which means more units later than someone with low econ now and lots of units now. When one plays against a random player they could potentially force their opponent to play sub optimally, with very little if any benefit or collateral advantage somewhere else, this is the true untapped and unmatched potential of random + Show Spoiler + QED I'd like to take a minute to state that this only really applies once there are absolutely no supply blocks, and no macro mistakes. Skipping scvs is fine if it's intentially part of your build to optimize an attack timing, perhaps allin but not a macro mistake. When the macro reaches that level it's the decision making, positioning, control, build order choice, strategy choice really start to determine games. Currently If the best players in the world dedicated themselves to Random, they would have a tremendous advantage because everyone else would be on the back-foot doing something they aren't used to doing. If the top players in the world dedicated themselves to random, the masses would follow, then your argument would be completely moot, because now there would effectively be 4 match-ups/meta's to practice(instead of 3) for tournament play.. (assuming random gets up to 25% of the population..) + Show Spoiler + I tried to keep everything very abstract because it's pointless to talk about when you're doing your pool etc. Especially in your examples a lot of what you purport as standard are things I've only seen in team games. I really hope my post is coherent, I kinda just went with it. | ||
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blabber
United States4450 Posts
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
Blizzard made "random" available, so stop thinking and just play it......... | ||
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Boxihobo
Hungary37 Posts
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Rah
United States973 Posts
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Disposition1989
Canada270 Posts
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Whitley
United States238 Posts
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Fyrewolf
United States1533 Posts
On August 23 2012 08:38 tehemperorer wrote: I read it like this: The OP has a (decently defensible) belief that there is only one "best" way to play PvZ. Because this "best" way can only be done against Zerg and not the other races, the random race mechanic forces him to play a small number of PvZ's (the PvR*Zs) suboptimally, according to his views on the matchup. If you believe FFE is the best way to play PvZ, then yes, playing against a Random player as Protoss is a disadvantage for the Protoss player. If he believes FFE is the only one "best" way to play PvZ then either A. He thinks the game is imbalanced (dominant strategy) or B. He may be wrong (if there actually are other viable approaches to the matchup). Considering how many people went back to or still do gateway expands and other non FFE strategies in their PvZ's and have shown that they are indeed viable, "FFE is the best way to play PvZ" of option A is highly debatable. | ||
Darneck
Sweden1394 Posts
If you play random in tournaments, you won't be playing the same meta game there either, you never will as random is the race in itself. All the openings against you will be different and those are the openings you should practice against on the ladder. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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IcedBacon
Canada906 Posts
On August 23 2012 08:54 Sated wrote: Seriously, another thread whining about Random players..? Random is its own race, it is not the race your Random opponent spawns in any particular game. The XvR match-ups are different to their XvZ/T/P counterparts because they have a different meta-game, they require different builds and they require different skills. Whining about Random opponents won't make them go away, so just get fucking better at playing against them. My thoughts when I saw this thread. Literally laughed out loud when I saw another random crying thread. | ||
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IceteaGuy
Germany95 Posts
Why I shouldn't be constantly creating pointless threads on TL.net Also I really don't get this funky new anti-random bias. Learn to adapt. Even though it may not be a typical human strength. | ||
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AndAgain
United States2621 Posts
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HeeroFX
United States2704 Posts
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malaan
365 Posts
I've only ever lost hard to one random player who was high masters, mostly because I failed to scout his tech in time. Checked replay, insanely high 350+ apm the entire game, assumed it was probably a pro smurf account? the username was DiceRoll or something similar | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
This entire thread is pointless and misguided | ||
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