I have nothing against random, because I play random too, just not like picking random.
Like I choose terran for 10 games in a row then switch, etc.
But the reason why I disagree a ton with playing random is;
Learning defections.
---------
Just think, you play random, maybe you're chosen zerg, and you get a toss player. The toss cant play out the standard early-midgame pvz until he either; lets the zerg scout him, or he scouts early on before his first pylon (Perhaps 7 supply?) and lets say, the toss is good and opens up 1 gate fe (not the normal pvz) and the zerg is forced to open up pool first because of the threat of early zealots with an expo behind it.
If you still don't understand, lemme try again;
You're chosen Protoss vs a zerg (again yes PvZ, just the player is protoss.) and the zerg is forced to open safe 11 pool or 15 pool, or defensive 10 pool and then expanding behind a speedling allin or baneling bust on 2 base.
Its not the standard ZvP/PvZ and you can only learn off of the non standard pvz that you get as being random.
I understand on how some actually do play random and tell their race, this post is not directed towards you. ^^ I do understand also on how some people dont even play random but do sometimes for the lols and try to learn abit about the other races, this isn't partially directed towards you guys/girls, either.
I am really putting this directly at the randoms on ladder who are plat or below who don't tell their race.
If you still dont understand, heres my TL;DR.
TL;DR= You dont play the normal meta game for each match up outside of random, and it's a bad learning defect in playing sc2.
/topic
(This is my first serious topic on TeamLiquid forums. The original topic title was "Why I don't agree with playing random" but it didn't fit the topic.)
That only works if your goal with playing random is learning and that the learning should be how to play a standard game. If you wanted to say "You shouldn't play random if you want to play to improve at playing the standard meta game, and assume that random isn't a valid meta game to learn" then sure, but I think it's narrow minded to assume that'd be the reason everyone plays the game.
Edit: I guess the other way of wording it would be "Why I don't play random".
I play random because its fun and I play to have fun. So why shouldn't I play random and have fun? Why exactly should I care about the metagame? Its not like I plan on going pro (or even hitting GM on ladder).
Your whole post is about why you shouldn't play random if you want to learn the meta game or improve. I have two accounts. One where I play zerg and the other where I play random just for fun when I want to play SC2 but do not want to focus on climbing the ladder,working on mechanics, etc.
You should really consider reframing your post. It just sounds like you don't understand why a lot of people play a game; it is fun.
I understand what you are saying and I think you are right but I think few people play random to really improve at a high level and learn the metagame.
I guess this is good advice for the 5 random players who are really trying to be the best on their server. As for everyone else, they probably don't care.
I understand what you are saying and I think you are right but I think few people play random to really improve at a high level and learn the metagame.
I sometimes play random on another account to see what I lose to if I play vs my main race as another race.
On August 23 2012 06:54 XERtirips wrote: I have nothing against random, because I play random too, just not like picking random.
Like I choose terran for 10 games in a row then switch, etc.
But the reason why I disagree a ton with playing random is;
Learning defections.
---------
Just think, you play random, maybe you're chosen zerg, and you get a toss player. The toss cant play out the standard early-midgame pvz until he either; lets the zerg scout him, or he scouts early on before his first pylon (Perhaps 7 supply?) and lets say, the toss is good and opens up 1 gate fe (not the normal pvz) and the zerg is forced to open up pool first because of the threat of early zealots with an expo behind it.
If you still don't understand, lemme try again;
You're chosen Protoss vs a zerg (again yes PvZ, just the player is protoss.) and the zerg is forced to open safe 11 pool or 15 pool, or defensive 10 pool and then expanding behind a speedling allin or baneling bust on 2 base.
Its not the standard ZvP/PvZ and you can only learn off of the non standard pvz that you get as being random.
If you still dont understand, heres my TL;DR.
TL;DR= You dont play the normal meta game for each match up outside of random, and it's a bad learning defect in playing sc2.
/topic
(This is my first serious topic on TeamLiquid forums. The original topic title was "Why I don't agree with playing random" but it didn't fit the topic.)
I understand what you are trying to say, but I disagree wtih your argument. Why is it bad for people to experience non standard games? Experience outwith that standard metagame openings will still add to a players experience, which is still positive learning.
No you actually learn to play the game if you want to. I wanted my portraits when I played random, and I got them, I just gold people my race. These threads are absolutely nonsense and have no bearing on the few thousand people that will read them. I played random, I told people my race, and I got shit on in chat and allin'd everygame still. Where are you 50 threads a month about that? Random is a legitimate race, if people don't wish to disclose their in game race, get a build for vs random that can adapt to each matchup later on after you scout it. They have to learn 9 matchups, you don't. Deal with it
On August 23 2012 06:54 XERtirips wrote: I have nothing against random, because I play random too, just not like picking random.
Like I choose terran for 10 games in a row then switch, etc.
But the reason why I disagree a ton with playing random is;
Learning defections.
---------
Just think, you play random, maybe you're chosen zerg, and you get a toss player. The toss cant play out the standard early-midgame pvz until he either; lets the zerg scout him, or he scouts early on before his first pylon (Perhaps 7 supply?) and lets say, the toss is good and opens up 1 gate fe (not the normal pvz) and the zerg is forced to open up pool first because of the threat of early zealots with an expo behind it.
If you still don't understand, lemme try again;
You're chosen Protoss vs a zerg (again yes PvZ, just the player is protoss.) and the zerg is forced to open safe 11 pool or 15 pool, or defensive 10 pool and then expanding behind a speedling allin or baneling bust on 2 base.
Its not the standard ZvP/PvZ and you can only learn off of the non standard pvz that you get as being random.
If you still dont understand, heres my TL;DR.
TL;DR= You dont play the normal meta game for each match up outside of random, and it's a bad learning defect in playing sc2.
/topic
(This is my first serious topic on TeamLiquid forums. The original topic title was "Why I don't agree with playing random" but it didn't fit the topic.)
I understand what you are trying to say, but I disagree wtih your argument. Why is it bad for people to experience non standard games? Experience outwith that standard metagame openings will still add to a players experience, which is still positive learning.
I never said it was bad. I just don't agree with how you have to play vs random and then the random has to shift with that in a weird, unorthadox way.
(Im talking about low leagues here, and the argument is mostly too.)
On August 23 2012 07:10 andReslic wrote: lol I doubt anyone cares about this, random is there and people will use it lol or dont tell me is it killing esports?
With all the "Anti-Random" threads that has been popping up lately the answer seems to be yes, at least according to the thread creators of said threads.
OT: If someone wants to play random, let them play random... why all these threads?
So you are saying that by playing the standard builds over and over again you are learning more than by facing more unpredictable, intuitive builds? I don't think so.
If you play random and it disrupts the metagame into something different, it doesnt matter because THAT is then the metagame they need to know, because they play random. Catch my drift?
Random player Vs X
the random player will eventually learn what races do in that position (vs rdm) and develop strategies behind it, much like the normal metagame.
Because its not "normal" gameplay from a typical XvX means nothing to a random player, the fucked up version is his norm.
EDIT: Wether its a detriment to your opponent or not, its a challenge to them, which is a good thing imo. Not being able to execute a safe build vs all MU's is fail anyway, and if it puts you behind, your expertise with your race should even things out, random players arent experts at a chosen matchup, they're jacks of all trades, right? ^^ (Or as i like to call them, cheesey bastards.)
Also, who the FUCK will trust random ladder player saying : Dont worry bro im toss. Next minute, 6 zerglings in ur base raping them probies.
On August 23 2012 06:58 BloodNinja wrote: I play random because its fun and I play to have fun. So why shouldn't I play random and have fun? Why exactly should I care about the metagame? Its not like I plan on going pro (or even hitting GM on ladder).
stop it! stop it at once! this guy had a dream. he came here, to the holy grail of starcraft, the teamliquid forums, carrying the firm conviction inside that everyone here is so uberpro. he made his first serious topic, trying to convince the people he identified as slacking in their determination, to get on the right way and take sc2 and their lifes serious, and you are telling him frankly that some people here just play for fun? shame on you! shame shame shame! you just made little jes... no, XERtirips cry!
This is one of the dumbest, and most selfish, threads I have ever seen on TL. What the hell are you trying to say here? That you have the authority to tell people how to play? I am guessing that you made this second thread about the same damn topic because YOU are angry when you cant play "standard according to the current metagame" and that makes you feel uncomfortable. Well that is unfortunate, but do you really think the random players out there care about your opinions?
Also, why do you care about other people improving at the game? I cant fucking stand it when someone says to me in a game: "Hey you are a peice of shit because all you know how to do is all in every game, dont you care about improving? You dont improve at the game from all inning every game, blah blah blah whine cry moan..." I dont give a shit about improving at the game, and even if I did, all inning is PART OF THE GAME, and if you hate fucking playing against it, then YOU IMPROVE so you can stop it. The point of the game (or any GAME) is to enjoy it; if that means competing, improving mechanics, or just cheesing every game...it literally doesnt matter as long as you are enjoying the game, and you sir, do not have the right to tell anyone else what they should enjoy lol.
On top of that, this "metagame" you speak of only exists at the top tier skill level of this game. Do you think that, just because a Gold league player can forge FE vs zerg, that he is playing completely standard according to a metagame? Noooo...he can still cannon rush, carrier rush, mothership rush, make mass DT's, mass immortals off 3 robo's, make mass void rays off 3 stargates, get 3 forges and get 3/3/3 upgrades asap, (i can go on) none of which is "metagame standard" and can probably work because he is playing in Gold league. When those strategies stop working, they will find something else that works, or that they *enjoy doing* while playing the game.
Serious topic my ass. Close this trash thread down please....thank you.
On August 23 2012 07:10 andReslic wrote: lol I doubt anyone cares about this, random is there and people will use it lol or dont tell me is it killing esports?
With all the "Anti-Random" threads that has been popping up lately the answer seems to be yes, at least according to the thread creators of said threads.
OT: If someone wants to play random, let them play random... why all these threads?
Some bad protoss player got 10 pooled while blindly going FFE. They got mad and decided that Random (of all things LOL) is OP and the TL community needed to be alerted immidiately. The rest is history.
Bunch of brainless mechanical crybabies around here. I almost feel like playing again just so I can do weird stuff and make you mad because I'm not playing "standard".
On August 23 2012 06:58 BloodNinja wrote: I play random because its fun and I play to have fun. So why shouldn't I play random and have fun? Why exactly should I care about the metagame? Its not like I plan on going pro (or even hitting GM on ladder).
stop it! stop it at once! this guy had a dream. he came here, to the holy grail of starcraft, the teamliquid forums, carrying the firm conviction inside that everyone here is so uberpro. he made his first serious topic, trying to convince the people he identified as slacking in their determination, to get on the right way and take sc2 and their lifes serious, and you are telling him frankly that some people here just play for fun? shame on you! shame shame shame! you just made little jes... no, XERtirips cry!
scnr;-)
haha, couldn't agree more. The whole "random is bad for pratice" argument makes me giggle everytime I read it ^^
On August 23 2012 06:54 XERtirips wrote: I have nothing against random, because I play random too, just not like picking random.
Like I choose terran for 10 games in a row then switch, etc.
But the reason why I disagree a ton with playing random is;
Learning defections.
---------
Just think, you play random, maybe you're chosen zerg, and you get a toss player. The toss cant play out the standard early-midgame pvz until he either; lets the zerg scout him, or he scouts early on before his first pylon (Perhaps 7 supply?) and lets say, the toss is good and opens up 1 gate fe (not the normal pvz) and the zerg is forced to open up pool first because of the threat of early zealots with an expo behind it.
If you still don't understand, lemme try again;
You're chosen Protoss vs a zerg (again yes PvZ, just the player is protoss.) and the zerg is forced to open safe 11 pool or 15 pool, or defensive 10 pool and then expanding behind a speedling allin or baneling bust on 2 base.
Its not the standard ZvP/PvZ and you can only learn off of the non standard pvz that you get as being random.
I understand on how some actually do play random and tell their race, this post is not directed towards you. ^^ I do understand also on how some people dont even play random but do sometimes for the lols and try to learn abit about the other races, this isn't partially directed towards you guys/girls, either.
I am really putting this directly at the randoms on ladder who are plat or below who don't tell their race.
If you still dont understand, heres my TL;DR.
TL;DR= You dont play the normal meta game for each match up outside of random, and it's a bad learning defect in playing sc2.
/topic
(This is my first serious topic on TeamLiquid forums. The original topic title was "Why I don't agree with playing random" but it didn't fit the topic.)
Sorry but your argument is flawed at the very basis. If you play Random to improve your skill with a picked race then yes, it's terrible. If you play Random because you play Random and the way games play out when you're Random is EXACTLY the way these games all play out then it's simply the best way to get better at RANDOM. Sigh. I don't want to learn what you call "standard PvZ" cause I don't play PvZ, I play RvZ. It's a totally different thing. Funnily enough, there are very standard builds for RvX which you'll have to learn eventually, too. It's only a bad thing if you're not sticking with Random. If you do, it's fine. And just to add a little twist: imo the best training to understand how battles play out is random. The opening builds are just lists of things to do, at least for 99% of players even in Masters.
On August 23 2012 07:16 forsooth wrote: Bunch of brainless mechanical crybabies around here. I almost feel like playing again just so I can do weird stuff and make you mad because I'm not playing "standard".
I chose to do a 3 gate sentry expand vs this zerg a week ago (for those new players, it was the "standard" pvz build a year ago, and I won purely because he made 6 spines and a bunch of roaches off 2 bases because he thought I was 1 basing, and I played macro the whole time. He wasnt very happy
Here's what I've learned from all these random threads recently:
>I have the most fun when I not only win, but make my opponent rage on ladder. >Nothing makes people rage like Random (apparently) >I should switch to Random and cheese like there's no tomorrow. >Harvest a bounty of delicious tears >Profit >Other memes where applicable.
If you look at random as a race itself, learn the metagame of random. Why are you discouraging people from having the advantage of using random? For now, it's just that people aren't accepting random as a race since people don't like cheese. That's just part and parcel of the game, and I really wish to see more progamers using random.
On August 23 2012 07:14 ishyishy wrote: This is one of the dumbest, and most selfish, threads I have ever seen on TL. What the hell are you trying to say here? That you have the authority to tell people how to play? I am guessing that you made this second thread about the same damn topic because YOU are angry when you cant play "standard according to the current metagame" and that makes you feel uncomfortable. Well that is unfortunate, but do you really think the random players out there care about your opinions?
Also, why do you care about other people improving at the game? I cant fucking stand it when someone says to me in a game: "Hey you are a peice of shit because all you know how to do is all in every game, dont you care about improving? You dont improve at the game from all inning every game, blah blah blah whine cry moan..." I dont give a shit about improving at the game, and even if I did, all inning is PART OF THE GAME, and if you hate fucking playing against it, then YOU IMPROVE so you can stop it. The point of the game (or any GAME) is to enjoy it; if that means competing, improving mechanics, or just cheesing every game...it literally doesnt matter as long as you are enjoying the game, and you sir, do not have the right to tell anyone else what they should enjoy lol.
On top of that, this "metagame" you speak of only exists at the top tier skill level of this game. Do you think that, just because a Gold league player can forge FE vs zerg, that he is playing completely standard according to a metagame? Noooo...he can still cannon rush, carrier rush, mothership rush, make mass DT's, mass immortals off 3 robo's, make mass void rays off 3 stargates, get 3 forges and get 3/3/3 upgrades asap, (i can go on) none of which is "metagame standard" and can probably work because he is playing in Gold league. When those strategies stop working, they will find something else that works, or that they *enjoy doing* while playing the game.
Serious topic my ass. Close this trash thread down please....thank you.
Bolded the important part of your post. This OP is directly at people who ARE interested in improving. But no, the OP is the idiot because you love being a noob? Get real. If YOU decided what was thread worthy this would be a sad forum. Your not a mod, stop acting like one.
The only good counterargument ive seen in this thread came from capped: "If you play random and it disrupts the metagame into something different, it doesnt matter because THAT is then the metagame they need to know, because they play random. Catch my drift? "
The op makes a strong case to play random. If you have equall skills in all 3 races then its just an advantage to play random. No disadvantage at all.
The advantage is that you know wich race your opponent is and your opponent does not know your race yet. This prevents him from playing an opening specifically against 1 race and he has to commit to an opening wich is more general and thus less good against that race, while you have the advantage of playing the opening wich is specifically designed for the race of the opponent. The odds of the opponent going to cheese or do weird builds is not a disadvantage but an advantage.
In 99% of the cases the opponent will probs just do an early scout to counter, and then its basicly a normal situation with a small eco advantage for you (due to his early scout)
1) Defection means desertion, a member of a larger group leaving the group. It is not synonymous to defect.
2) Why is the post aimed at "randoms on ladder who are plat or below who don't tell their race"? Plat and lower don't really need to worry about metagame, they just need to work on macro/micro/composition and so forth, they're not high enough level for metagame to matter (I'm low plat myself). Seems kind of like a pointless topic to me: either you like the slightly different metagame offered from Random, so you play Random, or you want to play standard, so you flip a mental dice every game (which I think is less fun than relying on SC2's pseudo random generator). Plus, who really cares (outside of the highest levels of competition) whether a random declares his race at the start of the game? Sure it might be good manners, but it doesn't effect anything: maybe you lose to the random player, and MAYBE you would have won had he declared his race... but so what? His MMR will rise and you won't see him again (or you get better and you beat him next time). People should just play however they like
EDIT: Reading comprehension fail, the post is aimed specifically at people who want to get better. Which, uh, I guess makes sense? but it only effects people who play random AND think about switching to a specific race AND again to those whom metagame matters (above plat). If they just continue to play random for the rest of WoL's career, the thread is pointless
To be honest, If you Plat or below, learning and understanding the Meta-Game won't help you improve very much at all. It's basic Mechanics that will help you improve. In fact, there really is no 'Standard' game played under diamond, because people in these leagues don't have the proper mechanics to pull of the correct timings and builds that would you see in a High Masters+ game.
I'm sorry op, but you dont realise what your problem with random actually is
You dont play the normal meta game for each match up outside of random
->
it's a bad learning defect in playing sc2.
how could this make any sense? those two sentences have nothing in common. you don't play the normal meta game in the given race, you play the normal meta game in random. you play in the way you'll win.. that's what "meta game" is. how could it be bad if you do your best to win? - that's where balance comes into play. You're whining about XvR balance without realising.
Rename the damn thread to "Random is op and here's why".
On August 23 2012 07:14 ishyishy wrote: This is one of the dumbest, and most selfish, threads I have ever seen on TL. What the hell are you trying to say here? That you have the authority to tell people how to play? I am guessing that you made this second thread about the same damn topic because YOU are angry when you cant play "standard according to the current metagame" and that makes you feel uncomfortable. Well that is unfortunate, but do you really think the random players out there care about your opinions?
Also, why do you care about other people improving at the game? I cant fucking stand it when someone says to me in a game: "Hey you are a peice of shit because all you know how to do is all in every game, dont you care about improving? You dont improve at the game from all inning every game, blah blah blah whine cry moan..." I dont give a shit about improving at the game, and even if I did, all inning is PART OF THE GAME, and if you hate fucking playing against it, then YOU IMPROVE so you can stop it. The point of the game (or any GAME) is to enjoy it; if that means competing, improving mechanics, or just cheesing every game...it literally doesnt matter as long as you are enjoying the game, and you sir, do not have the right to tell anyone else what they should enjoy lol.
On top of that, this "metagame" you speak of only exists at the top tier skill level of this game. Do you think that, just because a Gold league player can forge FE vs zerg, that he is playing completely standard according to a metagame? Noooo...he can still cannon rush, carrier rush, mothership rush, make mass DT's, mass immortals off 3 robo's, make mass void rays off 3 stargates, get 3 forges and get 3/3/3 upgrades asap, (i can go on) none of which is "metagame standard" and can probably work because he is playing in Gold league. When those strategies stop working, they will find something else that works, or that they *enjoy doing* while playing the game.
Serious topic my ass. Close this trash thread down please....thank you.
Bolded the important part of your post. This OP is directly at people who ARE interested in improving. But no, the OP is the idiot because you love being a noob? Get real. If YOU decided what was thread worthy this would be a sad forum. Your not a mod, stop acting like one.
The only good counterargument ive seen in this thread came from capped: "If you play random and it disrupts the metagame into something different, it doesnt matter because THAT is then the metagame they need to know, because they play random. Catch my drift? "
Ok so you are the all-knowing being of the universe? You cant argue that this isnt a selfish, rage-influenced thread if you just read every other post about people disagreeing and telling the OP off because he cant decide what is officially "fun" in this game.
This is a pointless thread; there is no "arguement", there is no discussion-invoking subject or topic here, it's just a bunch of complaining about people playing random.
On August 23 2012 06:54 XERtirips wrote: lets say, the toss is good and opens up 1 gate fe (not the normal pvz) and the zerg is forced to open up pool first because of the threat of early zealots with an expo behind it.
typically a zerg will open pool first anyways to deal with potential cannon rush-- it just happens to also work against a gateway opening.
Play the game however you want and enjoy this thread reminds me of how some people think its neccessary to PM you after losing the game explaining to you that you do not play the game properly..
Random is fine. Nobody who plays random has equal skill with all races and anyone below pro level is probably just meh in all match-ups but gets away with it because of the cautiousness the other player has to play with. Let them play random, they'll never get to pro level with any of them which really diffuses the need for any adjustments from Blizzard.
On August 23 2012 07:28 WniO wrote: in the end we will all be playing random... look at bw.
Didn't people boot you instantly if you tried playing Random in ICCup?
not talking about iccup. just in general - honestly was there anyone who just played 1 race for all those years? common. so many people will switch with the expansions and 5 years down the line.
Doesn't matter, random players are almost always terrible and just do some shitty cheese. If you scout it early and hold it off they're in uncharted waters past the 10 minute mark.
On August 23 2012 07:35 Masvidal wrote: Why doesn't random show your race during loading screen, like any self-respecting RTS?
Where is the fun in that? You dont get that half-second jolt of "SURPRISE!" when the game starts. You never know what hotkeys to press until the loading screen completes. How can you take that away from the children!
I completely disagree with you... 1.most players just care about winning on the ladder which means it is probably better for them if their opponent doesn't know what race they're playing eventhough they probably won't get that much better in the standard early game of the matchups 2.Even if they want to improve and play in tournaments or whatever: If they always play random they probably won't face a super matchup-focused opening (like ever) so there is no reason for them to learn the standard openings of their opponents but rather the openings their opponents will do vs random players
But practising random if you're really playing a single race is retarded to start with, it's needless to even bring up the metagame stuff, altho what you(OP) said stands, and should be obvious.
What if you play random in order to take advantage of lack of information? This forces the enemy player to use safe builds against you and scout early. You yourself can probably predict they will play safe and do not have to scout until later.
Random can almost be considered playing a 4th race because of how it affects the early game so much. You are not a Zerg, Terran, or Protoss player. You are a random player which has its own meta game.
Practicing against you can also be difficult in a tournament setting because practicing against all 3 races separately will not work quite as well. They have to practice against a random.
On August 23 2012 07:28 WniO wrote: in the end we will all be playing random... look at bw.
Didn't people boot you instantly if you tried playing Random in ICCup?
not talking about iccup. just in general - honestly was there anyone who just played 1 race for all those years? common. so many people will switch with the expansions and 5 years down the line.
I did! I started playing Protoss all the way back in 1998 .
On August 23 2012 07:44 AzureD wrote: What if you play random in order to take advantage of lack of information? This forces the enemy player to use safe builds against you and scout early. You yourself can probably predict they will play safe and do not have to scout until later.
Random can almost be considered playing a 4th race because of how it affects the early game so much. You are not a Zerg, Terran, or Protoss player. You are a random player which has its own meta game.
Practicing against you can also be difficult in a tournament setting because practicing against all 3 races separately will not work quite as well. They have to practice against a random.
Ok so what you are saying is that preparing against a Random player is actually MORE difficult and requires more attention to detail when playing? But, I believe the OP said that you actually get worse when you play Random and play against Random. Well, fortunately the OP couldnt be more wrong, and you couldnt be more right. Case closed!
Playing as random still allows you to improve macro, decision making and all sorts of skills that are needed in this game. Even though the opening of the opponent might not be optimal, the game (besides the early game) will play out very similar to every other game. Unit compositions, strengths of races at certain times, tactics you can use, etc are all the same.
When you've learned to play against a 1 gate expand, or 3 gate expand in ZvP, it's honestly no big deal to get that 3rd hatch a bit earlier, get gas at different timings and play the 'standard' game, for example. Many of the skills you get in the older metagame directly transfer to the new metagame.
This is the main reason I started telling people my race in the beginning of the game. You can do some really abusive stuff that doesn't follow meta since the enemy doesn't know your race. I know at one point (before I started telling me race) in ZvP I would hatch first, and then send a fast scouting drone to steal their second gas. Normally this wouldn't be a problem because they would be going FFE, but they didn't, because they didn't know my race, then I just mass lings so they can never take their natural. (since I took their second gas they won't have enough sentries).
EDIT: If you don't tell people your race you'll have trouble if you decide to pick a race and play since they will play a different meta is what I'm trying to say, even if you get good at the "random" meta
lol actually re-reading the OP and some of the posts trying to support it just makes we want to buy a new account, fail all my placement matches so i can get in bronze, and start cheesing as random every single game so people QQ more. Or better yet, macro, and induce more rage that somebody understands all three races better than they understand one.
Wait there's portraits for winning as random? Wow, shit just got serious, new goal in SC2...
Your post is the same as saying "you can't learn tvz by playing Protoss." sub "random" for Protoss. You learn a different meta game. It's not necessarily a bad one.
Apparently, these days people like to play Robotcraft Doing same build vs a matchup over and over. If a opponent does something out of usual build It instantly becomes "unfair"..... To get better, you should learn to adapt instead of QQing about how you can't be a robot and do the same build.
On August 23 2012 07:59 aviator116 wrote: lol actually re-reading the OP and some of the posts trying to support it just makes we want to buy a new account, fail all my placement matches so i can get in bronze, and start cheesing as random every single game so people QQ more. Or better yet, macro, and induce more rage that somebody understands all three races better than they understand one.
Playing in lower leagues is actually pretty entertaining. I love completely owning people. Seeing people rage out is 100x more entertaining than the game itself :D
Odd line of reasoning. I think that by playing random you create exactly those types of awkward situations for your opponent that defy the normal metagame. If protoss can't FFE against you isn't that more of an advantage? Granted, practicing the standard ZvP isn't going to happen, but that shouldn't be your primary concern as a random player, because you're not picking zerg. You're picking random. You're not necessarily picking random for matchup specific practice but rather, for practice as random. If you're winning more as random than you would picking a specific race, then it's giving you a type of advantage that you didn't have before. I don't see how that's a bad thing. It just seems to be the case that random has its own metagame since games unfold in a different manner than they would otherwise.
On August 23 2012 08:05 dUTtrOACh wrote: Odd line of reasoning. I think that by playing random you create exactly those types of awkward situations for your opponent that defy the normal metagame. If protoss can't FFE against you isn't that more of an advantage? Granted, practicing the standard ZvP isn't going to happen, but that shouldn't be your primary concern as a random player, because you're not picking zerg. You're picking random. You're not necessarily picking random for matchup specific practice but rather, for practice as random. If you're winning more as random than you would picking a specific race, then it's giving you a type of advantage that you didn't have before. I don't see how that's a bad thing. It just seems to be the case that random has its own metagame since games unfold in a different manner than they would otherwise.
It's like....some protoss guy wants to play 100% standard with 0 surprises. What advantage do you have when you do that? If your opponent knows what you are doing, doesnt that put you in a worse spot? Oh and this is possible because every player has a style, and if you get to high masters or GM, people start to catch on and abuse your style.
I played magic the gathering for 11 years. We had metagames. The metagame was followed, for the most part...until someone did something different, and it worked. Suddenly, over the corse of a week, the metagame would shift, and everyone would have to adapt, or risk losing because you are using old technology. Having a set, determined, constant metagame makes games (whether card, board, or video) stail and boring. Just imagine forge FE'ing against zerg for 11 years...it would be torture.
Did we really need another thread on this? Some people can't decide on a race, realise they can't be good enough to go pro, or don't want to, or, hell, I don't know, just want to play the damn game? Seems like there's a lot of people seem to think they know what's best for people. You don't. Stop fucking telling people how to play. They aren't maphacking for God's sake, they're using a feature that's built into the game.
Loading screen shows random. I SCV scout on 10, problem solved. There's too much complaints about players saying they're playing "sub-optimally" against Randoms.
A few seconds knocked off your build from an early scout isn't going to wreck your entire build.
I basically read the OP as 'why you shouldn't be having fun playing the ladder'. My response is still the same - I'll play how I want to play and I don't care what other people think I should be doing. Like most people on TL, I'm not not, nor will I ever be pro - so why should I care about pretending that I am/will be? I just want to enjoy the game.
Don't tell me what to do. I payed 60 dollars for the game, I will play it how I want. Why do people think it's ok to make OPs like this? 99% of the sc2 player base is casual players. By your logic people should stop playing 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 because they arnt experiencing the real meta game. SC2 is a game and I want to enjoy it. If I get my fun by playing rand then that's all that matters because i'm a casual player. But don't tell me how I can and can't enjoy a game that I payed for.
If you really want to improve properly at all 3 races by playing random, you could always just tell your opponent your race at the start. There's really no problem here.
On August 23 2012 08:14 Eps wrote: Loading screen shows random. I SCV scout on 10, problem solved. There's too much complaints about players saying they're playing "sub-optimally" against Randoms.
A few seconds knocked off your build from an early scout isn't going to wreck your entire build.
For the protoss that think they cant win without Forge FE'ing, knowing the opponents race is the only thing that matters before the game starts lol. Those people are close-minded and probably really arrogant, but it happens. Pylon placement is 100% relevant for those people, unfortunately.
On August 23 2012 08:17 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote: Don't tell me what to do. I payed 60 dollars for the game, I will play it how I want. Why do people think it's ok to make OPs like this? 99% of the sc2 player base is casual players. By your logic people should stop playing 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 because they arnt experiencing the real meta game. SC2 is a game and I want to enjoy it. If I get my fun by playing rand then that's all that matters because i'm a casual player. But don't tell me how I can and can't enjoy a game that I payed for.
They think it's ok because, for some reason, they think everyone else in the world shares the same opinion about everything, and maybe they could gain fame if 500,000 people rally and protest blizzard. Not even joking. lol.
This argument can only work if there is one and ONLY one viable way to play a matchup. Since there are many viable ways to approach each matchup, "standard" is a highly relative term that encompasses multiple styles. You can learn about the matchup from any game just fine regardless of the opener, including practicing/learning relative timings, mechanics, scouting, everything else, etc. If you are trying argue for practicing/learning to perfect a specific build for a specific matchup and complaining that ladder isn't giving you that specific matchup, well that's what practice partners are for, so it's entirely moot.
On August 23 2012 08:29 Fyrewolf wrote: This argument can only work if there is one and ONLY one viable way to play a matchup. Since there are many viable ways to approach each matchup, "standard" is a highly relative term that encompasses multiple styles. You can learn about the matchup from any game just fine regardless of the opener, including practicing/learning relative timings, mechanics, scouting, everything else, etc. If you are trying argue for practicing/learning to perfect a specific build for a specific matchup and complaining that ladder isn't giving you that specific matchup, well that's what practice partners are for, so it's entirely moot.
I read it like this: The OP has a (decently defensible) belief that there is only one "best" way to play PvZ. Because this "best" way can only be done against Zerg and not the other races, the random race mechanic forces him to play a small number of PvZ's (the PvR*Zs) suboptimally, according to his views on the matchup. If you believe FFE is the best way to play PvZ, then yes, playing against a Random player as Protoss is a disadvantage for the Protoss player.
Perhaps...there will evolve a 'metagame' for PvR, TvR, and ZvR?
Also, you are not playing random. By definition of your description of how you choose to play the game, and by association your race. You state: "Like I choose terran for 10 games in a row then switch, etc.", by any vernacular definition of the word random that is not random. I believe you meant to say "I play all races". If you were to roll a dice to decide what race you would then play, you could claim that you play random. You could also try to claim that you have advantage over 'True Random' players because you are allowed to practice the current metagame in all of your games from the very beginning of the game. (which I believe is wrong, because as I'll explain below, it would be better to create a new meta-game)
I'm not sure if it's hatred or if it's fear of random that everyone seems to have, perhaps both.
By your method of choosing a race to play every benefit that is inherent to random is given up, and yet you still have every disadvantage that trying to learn 3 different races entails. You are allowing your opponent to play their most prepared build order, and know that they are doing that before the game starts. All the while, you still have to learn how to play all 3 races against his or her particular race.
It seems to me that the best players quickly learn how burdonsome playing random can be. I can only imagine the thought of doing decently well in a tournament, and just that nagging feeling of what 'could have been' if you only had to study/prepare for 3-matchups. I believe this to be the main cause of random not being represented in tournaments.
In your example, the zerg player up against a random player is FORCED to play a certain way. Isn't that like the best definition of what metagame truly is on it's most basic level. It's what inherently comes out of what your opponent is ABLE to do. + Show Spoiler +
Hint: They can't do X because they were FORCED to do Y...OR... They were only ABLE to do Y because doing X will get you killed + Show Spoiler +
;-) see what I did there?
So if zerg's were forced to have whatever reaction they will naturally have to an abundance of random players, then wouldn't it follow that they should probably practice that, and so naturally should the random players. I personally don't think this applies because nothing is standard until you reach a certain level of macro. The pro players and to an extent some non-pro grandmaster players are setting the metagame, not someone in diamond, or mid masters. We don't see an abundance of pros in tournaments, so there is not a following on the ladder. There is however a solid population of random players. What if there WAS a pro player who embrace random?...
Playing Random has Unmatched and Untapped Potential. What if Jaedong started playing random? He would literally create a new meta-game for each match-up. And some of the 'meta's' would even be specific to playing against other random players. Just like you said, you have to adjust to a random player if you come across them on ladder. Now you're playing a sub-optimal build in order to be more safe early. The random player should know this(before the game even starts) and be able to take advantage of their opponent being restricted/limited in their choice of build order. Of course if the 'Natural Race' player knows that the Random player's best play would be to exploit that weakness, then he/she should be able to overcome any inherent build order loss by 'meta-ing' their opponent, but of course the random player knows that etc, etc....etc.
If you look at normal Meta's like TvP, or PvZ, or TvZ. There are certainly disadvantages to choosing any given build, but they are accepted disadvantages because they provide an advantage somewhere else. If you go fast expand, you have less units now, but more econ now, which means more units later than someone with low econ now and lots of units now.
When one plays against a random player they could potentially force their opponent to play sub optimally, with very little if any benefit or collateral advantage somewhere else, this is the true untapped and unmatched potential of random + Show Spoiler +
QED
.
I'd like to take a minute to state that this only really applies once there are absolutely no supply blocks, and no macro mistakes. Skipping scvs is fine if it's intentially part of your build to optimize an attack timing, perhaps allin but not a macro mistake.
When the macro reaches that level it's the decision making, positioning, control, build order choice, strategy choice really start to determine games. Currently If the best players in the world dedicated themselves to Random, they would have a tremendous advantage because everyone else would be on the back-foot doing something they aren't used to doing.
If the top players in the world dedicated themselves to random, the masses would follow, then your argument would be completely moot, because now there would effectively be 4 match-ups/meta's to practice(instead of 3) for tournament play.. (assuming random gets up to 25% of the population..)
I tried to keep everything very abstract because it's pointless to talk about when you're doing your pool etc. Especially in your examples a lot of what you purport as standard are things I've only seen in team games.
I really hope my post is coherent, I kinda just went with it.
Another thread like this? Leave the randoms alone yo, some people like rolling the dice. Everyone should play as random, then there wouldn't be as much bias or ignorant race bashing that plagues almost every thread.
Broken record here, I just want to have fun too. I'll play Random so I can play 9 different matchups rather than 3 where I get bored. Sure, I could just choose my race to begin each match. Or not. I don't always want to care about timings and little greedy tricks I can do because I know my race sooo well. How often do you even play random people? I play maybe 1 in 20 games vs random.
On August 23 2012 08:29 Fyrewolf wrote: This argument can only work if there is one and ONLY one viable way to play a matchup. Since there are many viable ways to approach each matchup, "standard" is a highly relative term that encompasses multiple styles. You can learn about the matchup from any game just fine regardless of the opener, including practicing/learning relative timings, mechanics, scouting, everything else, etc. If you are trying argue for practicing/learning to perfect a specific build for a specific matchup and complaining that ladder isn't giving you that specific matchup, well that's what practice partners are for, so it's entirely moot.
I read it like this: The OP has a (decently defensible) belief that there is only one "best" way to play PvZ. Because this "best" way can only be done against Zerg and not the other races, the random race mechanic forces him to play a small number of PvZ's (the PvR*Zs) suboptimally, according to his views on the matchup. If you believe FFE is the best way to play PvZ, then yes, playing against a Random player as Protoss is a disadvantage for the Protoss player.
If he believes FFE is the only one "best" way to play PvZ then either A. He thinks the game is imbalanced (dominant strategy) or B. He may be wrong (if there actually are other viable approaches to the matchup).
Considering how many people went back to or still do gateway expands and other non FFE strategies in their PvZ's and have shown that they are indeed viable, "FFE is the best way to play PvZ" of option A is highly debatable.
I'd say that this is all wrong, you need to think of random as a race who has their own openings against them.
If you play random in tournaments, you won't be playing the same meta game there either, you never will as random is the race in itself. All the openings against you will be different and those are the openings you should practice against on the ladder.
On August 23 2012 08:54 Sated wrote: Seriously, another thread whining about Random players..?
Random is its own race, it is not the race your Random opponent spawns in any particular game. The XvR match-ups are different to their XvZ/T/P counterparts because they have a different meta-game, they require different builds and they require different skills. Whining about Random opponents won't make them go away, so just get fucking better at playing against them.
My thoughts when I saw this thread. Literally laughed out loud when I saw another random crying thread.
I think some people play random just because they want to play all races. That's unnecessary because you can just use a random number generator and alternate races. Only reason to play random is if you want to hide your race.
Honestly, the majority of people play the game for fun. Random is an option, why not use it if you don't know what race you wanna play? Sure you reasons make sense in the OP. But I promise you when player John Smith logs on and plays the game and just wants to have fun. He doesn't think about what happens to the game if he is playing random. Random won't go away, and the % of players who play random is very small ( i am just assuming this, because random is really hard.) I think a better solution is finding a way to open when you play random that can keep you safe until you figure out whats up. Even scouting earlier is a better option.
Maybe I am being a dick move, but if I come up against random on ladder I just leave.... it always turns out to be a totally awkward / funky game that more or less ends because he does some crazy all in and fails / succeeds that you can only get away with playing Random..
I've only ever lost hard to one random player who was high masters, mostly because I failed to scout his tech in time. Checked replay, insanely high 350+ apm the entire game, assumed it was probably a pro smurf account? the username was DiceRoll or something similar
You know, instead of playing the same race 10 games in a row, you could simply tell your opponent at the beginning of the game what is your race. Most people will trust what you say (I've never had someone lie me by doing so, that would be retard), and then you can play a standard game. Maybe a few people will still play a non standard game because they aren't confident, but probably not since it's the worst feeling in the world to do so.
On August 23 2012 09:41 PatouPower wrote: You know, instead of playing the same race 10 games in a row, you could simply tell your opponent at the beginning of the game what is your race. Most people will trust what you say (I've never had someone lie me by doing so, that would be retard), and then you can play a standard game. Maybe a few people will still play a non standard game because they aren't confident, but probably not since it's the worst feeling in the world to do so.
Or simply alternate races instead of playing random.
this thread already exists elsewhere, do the search, its got a lot of comments etc, over 30 pages. My 2 cents though...XvR is just another match up you have to learn along with the others. You need to learn to react to what happens in the game, not just spout pre-ordained patterns of units and buildings. See the other thread for everyones, longer opinions, few people will bother to put them twice.
With all the "Anti-Random" threads that has been popping up lately the answer seems to be yes, at least according to the thread creators of said threads.
This thread isnt anti-random ^^ (_________ ^ if you read as "is" I made a mistake.)
You know, instead of playing the same race 10 games in a row, you could simply tell your opponent at the beginning of the game what is your race.
I stated this thread wasnt directed towards randoms such as described. :p
On August 23 2012 09:22 malaan wrote: Maybe I am being a dick move, but if I come up against random on ladder I just leave.... it always turns out to be a totally awkward / funky game that more or less ends because he does some crazy all in and fails / succeeds that you can only get away with playing Random..
Imo it's not a dick move to give away free wins. But if you don't play these kind of games you will be at a loss when someone does something unorthodox which gives you a huge weakness. Since you seem to be a high level player (mentioning smurf GM's) this must suck for you. My tip is that you just all-in instead. A 4-gate as P, 1/1/1 or 2rax as T and roach or baneling bust as Z would give you a higher win rate in the MU (up from zero), some good training against/with unorthodox games and more experience.
Btw: Could someone explain to me how the only thing that matters in the meta game is the opening?
On August 23 2012 09:59 hahagag wrote: You could always just tell the other player your race.
I dont believe people when they just straight up tell me their race, i mean one guy said he was protoss and then i show up with a scout and hes 6 pooling me.
Technically aren't your games "standard" if you play Random all the time? Like when I played Random I developed builds for most match-ups (not cheese btw). If your opponent is an idiot who leaves every game versus Random and therefore has no idea how to deal with Random players isn't that his problem then and not the Random player?
Let's say someone feels that Zerg is imbalanced and therefore just leaves against every Zerg - is that the Zerg's fault? Or even if he doesn't leave and feels that "every game against Zerg just turns into an awkward all in that wouldn't work unless he was Zerg ("Stupid Zerg only wins cause of banelings! If he didn't play Zerg banelings would totally not work!!!!1!111 :,,( QQTTQQ!!") Isn't that just the QQer's fault for being a wuss and not trying to develop a decent strategy for the match-up?
It sounds like to me that since there is no "walkthrough" for XvR everyone is just whining because they don't have something telling them exactly what to do each time.
On August 23 2012 07:10 andReslic wrote: lol I doubt anyone cares about this, random is there and people will use it lol or dont tell me is it killing esports?
With all the "Anti-Random" threads that has been popping up lately the answer seems to be yes, at least according to the thread creators of said threads.
OT: If someone wants to play random, let them play random... why all these threads?
People who have no imagination have learned an abc way of playing. When the abc way doesn't work. Something is wrong and since they're "playing by the book" the wrong must be else where. This line of thinking is extremely common in poker. People just don't comprehend the complexities of the game. They think that there is one correct way to play. Basically what they want is for you to do exactly what they do. So that they have a chance in hell to understand how you are thinking. So they can win ;-)
You must realize that the people who say "random bad". Well they're exactly the same people who say "rushing bad macro good", "Race/Unit X OP". Who play the exact same opening every game. Who have no clue what metagame even means. They do have whining down to a science though =)
They are basically robots. Dare not challenge their circular logic or you will be damned ^^
I am a Zerg who played random for portraits and now is forced to play terran & toss because I ran out of wins ;-) Sometimes I rush or do a timing, sometimes I turtle/macro & sometimes I tech. It depends on the matchup, how I feel & in team games what my allies want to do.
Ps. Is it really that bad if you learn how to adapt to circumstances?
The whole reason some people may play random is for the advantage the OP talks about.
However, such an advantage generally does not surmount the disadvantage of not being specialized into the skills of using a single race. It's a trade-off and it's not efficient.
I think random should be a legitimate choice, and I think it's fair that people should have to change their build if they tend to play the meta game too much (playing standard).
For me when I'm against a random the only thing that changes is I'll always send a scout drone, when normally I only do-so in ZvZ.
On August 23 2012 10:07 Arghmyliver wrote: It sounds like to me that since there is no "walkthrough" for XvR everyone is just whining because they don't have something telling them exactly what to do each time.
I guess that sounds kinda plausible. Overall random players shouldn't be an issue regardless if that's the issue or not.
I'd much rather have 3-enemy-spawn maps removed from the game than random as a race choice because that causes much more randomness problems than just the random race feature does.
How does someone from the U.S. have spelling and grammar skills like the OP?
It was such a simple concept yet I only understood it after reading the TLDR.
To people saying that opening don't matter below masters... well, they do matter at least in diamond and plat, opening gateway expand against a 15 hatch or econ pool zerg still puts the toss behind because both players are quite bad.
Everyone talks about "I never cheese because it won't help me get better in the long run," "I won't get any better if I play Random because I can't focus on one race," "I only cheese random since it's bad practice since it's not really used high up anyways" or even this right now of "you won't learn as well if you play random because the metagame is different."
Give me a break. If you're not going to become pro, who the fuck cares if you improve in the long run at as fast of a rate? Enjoy the damn game. Most people have plateaued anyways, at least with random you'll be at an area you can improve facets of your gameplay. Who cares about only playing standard since it's supposedly the only worthwhile way to play? If you're not going to go pro, enjoy the game, and enjoy the damn money you paid for your game. I paid $60 to play SC2, I have a day job, and I have no intention of going pro. I play Random to enjoy all 3 races.
This is pretty assumptive. I've always felt the challenge of the burden of knowledge from randoming outweighs the benefits that certain maps/matchups can force in random v x scenarios.
Random may force some matchups outside of the current meta but at the end of the day that's more variety for the Starcraft experience. I enjoy my matches against random generally because I find I have to wake myself up from my established routine and actively think about the game for a few seconds before I mindlessly plow into a 16 minute plan to win the game.
Most of the high masters random players that I've encountered play extremely standard games within the current meta. There are probably a number of people out there abusing the race to get a marginal advantage at the beginning of a game but I fail to see how that impacts the game all that much. Even the players "abusing" random to get a slight advantage will probably find themselves gaining proficiency with all 3 races in the process, which is the point of random if I'm not mistaken . Also a lot of this was already covered in the Random thread posted within the past week.
I really don't understand all the hate we random players have been getting this week. We play just like the rest of you; some for fun, some to get better. Personally, I'd like to get better at the game with all 3 races. I've been playing random since the game came out and never had issues with "you/your opponent aren't playing the standard metagame."
I mean seriously, are you that bad at the game that you can't scout your oppoenent and then have to come QQ on TeamLiquid about it? If you're super worried about a random player when you hit them on ladder, just send a scout 1 earlier. So if you usually scout at 9, send one at 8. It really doesn't affect your game or build that much to scout early.
The only bad thing about having a Random option when choosing your race in the game is that it gives people the opportunity to make threads like these.
On August 23 2012 09:08 AndAgain wrote: I think some people play random just because they want to play all races. That's unnecessary because you can just use a random number generator and alternate races. Only reason to play random is if you want to hide your race.
Or they just don't want to fuck about just to play a video game?
All my builds open essentially the exact same and diverge at ordinary scout times so playing against random is never dangerous for me. Playing random for the sole purpose of collecting ladder points by abusing metagame is kind of short sighted in my opinion.
On August 23 2012 10:34 PersonDudeGuy wrote: All my builds open essentially the exact same and diverge at ordinary scout times so playing against random is never dangerous for me. Playing random for the sole purpose of collecting ladder points by abusing metagame is kind of short sighted in my opinion.
Playing SC2 in itself is incredibly short-sighted too you know? I mean seriously, do you honestly expect to become a pro-gamer one day? And even if you do, do you think you'll find a super stable source of income that way? Fact is, Starcraft 2 is a video game. It's a hobby, meant for entertainment, you should really only play for fun. Some people obviously need to come to grips with that.
I'm pretty sure that people play random for fun. Everyone with half a brain knows that you don't learn to play any of the races optimally if you choose random. Seems like you created this thread due to being upset about not being able to play normally against random players, why do you care what others do with their time in a video game?
Lots of people pick weaker characters in fighting games, pick suboptimal specializations in MMO's, or random heroes in Moba games. If they prefer to play the game differently, let them.
On August 23 2012 10:34 PersonDudeGuy wrote: All my builds open essentially the exact same and diverge at ordinary scout times so playing against random is never dangerous for me. Playing random for the sole purpose of collecting ladder points by abusing metagame is kind of short sighted in my opinion.
Playing SC2 in itself is incredibly short-sighted too you know? I mean seriously, do you honestly expect to become a pro-gamer one day? And even if you do, do you think you'll find a super stable source of income that way? Fact is, Starcraft 2 is a video game. It's a hobby, meant for entertainment, you should really only play for fun. Some people obviously need to come to grips with that.
Nice straw man argument.
EDIT: I stand corrected, I'll sit in the corner and get my head out of my ass.
On August 23 2012 10:34 PersonDudeGuy wrote: All my builds open essentially the exact same and diverge at ordinary scout times so playing against random is never dangerous for me. Playing random for the sole purpose of collecting ladder points by abusing metagame is kind of short sighted in my opinion.
Playing SC2 in itself is incredibly short-sighted too you know? I mean seriously, do you honestly expect to become a pro-gamer one day? And even if you do, do you think you'll find a super stable source of income that way? Fact is, Starcraft 2 is a video game. It's a hobby, meant for entertainment, you should really only play for fun. Some people obviously need to come to grips with that.
Nice straw man argument.
Straw man is expanding the initial statement or misinterpreting it, and then refuting your interpretation of his argument. How is my response a straw-man argument, pray tell?
On August 23 2012 06:58 BloodNinja wrote: I play random because its fun and I play to have fun. So why shouldn't I play random and have fun? Why exactly should I care about the metagame? Its not like I plan on going pro (or even hitting GM on ladder).
he wasn't directing the thread at you, he mentioned that it's directed to players who are actively trying to improve. this thread is really directed at players who think they understand all the matchups because they play random in master league, but playing a PvZ as random is completely different from actually choosing protoss and playing against a zerg who knows your protoss. so in reality, your master level PvZ isn't really master level at all because without telling your opponent what race you are in the beginning of the match, there is no way in hell the first 5 min of a R(P)vZ is the same as a normal PvZ.
I guess it should be common sense for most people and maybe this thread needed to be made, I have no idea... but he's right, if you want to be competitive, dont play random.
I see nothing wrong with randoms. If you want to improve so badly and want to control matchups and scenarios then you should join a team and get practice partners. That way you can practice specific builds and timings against other specific builds and timings. Ladder will always be unpredictable. If you're not will to accept and adjust to that fact you shouldn't be playing on ladder. Pros play ladder to keep up on their mechanics. No pro plays ladder to develop builds or to practis specific parts of matchups. There is a reason for the slowdown of korean streamers right now. They are not wanting to show off tweaked builds and new things they've figured out and are keeping things in house with practice partners before the major upcoming seasons and tournametns happen. Nobody picked up on slayers major transformation of hellion play before mlg, despite the playing on ladder. Ladder is purely machanics and muscle memory training. You don't get to control ladder, but fortunatly you get to adapt to it. Now let people play how they want. If your only goal is to improve your play then quit when you get a random. Randoms are quite rare by ladder standards. One game lost won't crush your mmr and you won't waste your time playing what you decide is suboptimal play.
On August 23 2012 06:58 BloodNinja wrote: I play random because its fun and I play to have fun. So why shouldn't I play random and have fun? Why exactly should I care about the metagame? Its not like I plan on going pro (or even hitting GM on ladder).
he wasn't directing the thread at you, he mentioned that it's directed to players who are actively trying to improve. this thread is really directed at players who think they understand all the matchups because they play random in master league, but playing a PvZ as random is completely different from actually choosing protoss and playing against a zerg who knows your protoss. so in reality, your master level PvZ isn't really master level at all because without telling your opponent what race you are in the beginning of the match, there is no way in hell the first 5 min of a R(P)vZ is the same as a normal PvZ.
I guess it should be common sense for most people and maybe this thread needed to be made, I have no idea... but he's right, if you want to be competitive, dont play random.
Maybe people want to see how far they can go on the ladder by only playing random? How can it be such a big deal for non-random players that they feel the need to complain about it?
On August 23 2012 10:34 PersonDudeGuy wrote: All my builds open essentially the exact same and diverge at ordinary scout times so playing against random is never dangerous for me. Playing random for the sole purpose of collecting ladder points by abusing metagame is kind of short sighted in my opinion.
Playing SC2 in itself is incredibly short-sighted too you know? I mean seriously, do you honestly expect to become a pro-gamer one day? And even if you do, do you think you'll find a super stable source of income that way? Fact is, Starcraft 2 is a video game. It's a hobby, meant for entertainment, you should really only play for fun. Some people obviously need to come to grips with that.
Nice straw man argument.
A straw man argument is when someone builds a case against the weakest evidence provided. As common as this kind of logical fallacy is, this is not an example of one.
On August 23 2012 06:58 BloodNinja wrote: I play random because its fun and I play to have fun. So why shouldn't I play random and have fun? Why exactly should I care about the metagame? Its not like I plan on going pro (or even hitting GM on ladder).
he wasn't directing the thread at you, he mentioned that it's directed to players who are actively trying to improve. this thread is really directed at players who think they understand all the matchups because they play random in master league, but playing a PvZ as random is completely different from actually choosing protoss and playing against a zerg who knows your protoss. so in reality, your master level PvZ isn't really master level at all because without telling your opponent what race you are in the beginning of the match, there is no way in hell the first 5 min of a R(P)vZ is the same as a normal PvZ.
I guess it should be common sense for most people and maybe this thread needed to be made, I have no idea... but he's right, if you want to be competitive, dont play random.
no, i think the point is that the first 3 minutes will not determine the outcome of the game. overall better player will/should win. to say PvZ and PvRZ are completely different is....completely wrong.
as i've said before, best way to improve is mechanics, game sense, adapting, reacting, macro/micro, etc. NOT perfecting a build order, especially of the first 3 minutes.
Some people that random on ladder only do it to win. Its the only way they know how to win. I see nothing wrong with that. Some people dont care about learning or improving, they only car about winning. If I knew how to play all 3 races at the exact same level, I would probably play random sometimes as well. Its rare to play random players at higher levels but even then, most random players dont know how to play past the midgame which is an easy win. In lower levels of play, most random players cheese. If you're a lower level player and you play against someone that is random, dont go and try to be cute with a ffe or a 15 cc, just play standard until you get a sufficient intel from scouting.
It doesn't matter, they get good at r(z)vp and r(p)vz. Why would they need to get good at regular Zvp and pvz? They don't ever play it, its just different, not better or worse.
On August 23 2012 11:02 Gamegene wrote: this is why day9 rolls a dice before every ladder session/match to see which race he'll play
Day9 is not a random player.
That's his point.
He's choosing his race randomly, without playing 'Random'
I kind of agree with the OP, my first several seasons were as Random and when I got to diamond I wanted to finally choose Protoss and focus on one race.
Since I was better with Protoss, I expected I'd go higher in Rank, since I wouldn't be playing my weakest Race, Terran anymore.
What I actually experienced though was that within 2 weeks I had been demoted back to Platinum.
Builds I thought were fine stopped working, and all of a sudden people were cheesing me with things I had never actually learned to defend. No one is going to Cannon Rush a Random, because you have to decide while blind, and if I'm Terran or Zerg it just fails. Same with like Proxy 2 gate or a 6 pool or Marine/SCV all ins or even the 1-1-1.
As soon as my race was known, what I was playing against totally changed. Then it took a few weeks to actually adapt to that, change what I was doing and get back to Diamond and eventually move up in Rank.
So ya, if I had it to do over, I'd still play Randomly... but I'd do something like roll a dice and then pick that race, not actually play 'Random'
In another respect, a player who plays as a random will actually gain a great deal more knowledge of standard play if they play random. For instance, When I first started playing random I had a huge problem with decision making and knowing when to attack, when to expand, when I should commit, when I shouldn't. However, as I started playing random and playing each race, I began to make better judgement calls because I knew the extent of the damage I dealt to my opponent better because I understood the race they played. Not many Terran's know how much trouble a Zerg is in when they do the 4 helion opener, and they don't know the physical possiblities of a protoss player in the early game. At least not as well as a toss or Zerg would.
Also, when you play random, you don't NEED the standard TvZ metagame, or the Standard PvZ metagame, unless of course you're planning on changing to 1 specific race. Random is a new match-up all in it's own, so worrying about the current metagame is useless because so long as you play random, odds are you won't be exposed to it. A Zerg player doesn't know the standard play for a TvT, guess that Zerg shouldn't play Zerg or they're falling behind in the metagame! All jokes aside, the metagame is irrelevent, no pro's literally do the same build every match up unless you're like Stephano in the redbull tourny and look what happened to him, sure he played like a beats, but he lost to MC.
I think playing as a random helps your mechanics and your reactionary play very well, since you can never be sure what to expect from your opponent since you know they won't do a standard build, you have to thinm on your toes, just like them.
On the contrary, playing against a random means you have to think outside the box and use your game knowledge / decision making to a fuller extent in order to win (meta styles do a lot of decision making FOR you). Relying on a metagame just to be "good" is a terrible idea, it has no long term effect on your decision making skills; it just makes you good at a build. I have 2 GM friends that are random, one of them plays standard and the other player is very unorthodox..they both are amazingly good practice partners because my decision making is tested to the fullest; I can't just rely on my build order to hold my hand.
On August 23 2012 12:04 KarneEspada wrote: I disagree whole heartedly.
On the contrary, playing against a random means you have to think outside the box and use your game knowledge / decision making to a fuller extent in order to win (meta styles do a lot of decision making FOR you). Relying on a metagame just to be "good" is a terrible idea, it has no long term effect on your decision making skills; it just makes you good at a build. I have 2 GM friends that are random, one of them plays standard and the other player is very unorthodox..they both are amazingly good practice partners because my decision making is tested to the fullest; I can't just rely on my build order to hold my hand.
You hate playing me, and you said I'm a terrible practice partner.
I like how all the peole that were hiding from the other don't play random posts have now come out and are attacking this one for its logic. I'm really confused as to why anyone would play random and not drop a dice and give 2 different numbers to each race. That would be the same thing, and not confuse opponents, but hey whatever floats your boat.
On August 23 2012 13:27 docvoc wrote: I like how all the peole that were hiding from the other don't play random posts have now come out and are attacking this one for its logic. I'm really confused as to why anyone would play random and not drop a dice and give 2 different numbers to each race. That would be the same thing, and not confuse opponents, but hey whatever floats your boat.
Because I don't want to do that? It's fucking tedious. I'll tell my race, if you don't believe me I don't really care. It's an option in the game and I choose to use it though. Unbelievable people can cry about an option given to people in the game. How is it any different than crying that I don't play standard, or something of that nature?
Random players are kind of idiots. If you want to have a feel for each race, just PICK terran, then PICK zerg, then PICK protoss. Vary in whatever amount you want. You dont even really get a feel for the race, because everyone and their mother makes a fucking point to insult you, cheese you, leave rather than play you, or are just generally forced to divert from their regular build in order to stay safe.
Maybe I'm alone here... but achievements and portraits man.... I like the random portraits, thats why I choose random. I still play macro games and standard, the reason I choose random isnt to get "easy wins" or cheese but cause I want the pictures along with practice.
On August 23 2012 13:59 whatevername wrote: Random players are kind of idiots. If you want to have a feel for each race, just PICK terran, then PICK zerg, then PICK protoss. Vary in whatever amount you want. You dont even really get a feel for the race, because everyone and their mother makes a fucking point to insult you, cheese you, leave rather than play you, or are just generally forced to divert from their regular build in order to stay safe.
Oh god, really? Calling a whole group of people who play random for a variety of reasons, idiots? I know when I play random...it's just for fun, not knowing my race until the game pops...for a breath of fresh air.
On August 23 2012 13:59 whatevername wrote: Random players are kind of idiots. If you want to have a feel for each race, just PICK terran, then PICK zerg, then PICK protoss. Vary in whatever amount you want. You dont even really get a feel for the race, because everyone and their mother makes a fucking point to insult you, cheese you, leave rather than play you, or are just generally forced to divert from their regular build in order to stay safe.
Random players are having fun! What a bunch of idiots!
On August 23 2012 13:59 whatevername wrote: Random players are kind of idiots. If you want to have a feel for each race, just PICK terran, then PICK zerg, then PICK protoss. Vary in whatever amount you want. You dont even really get a feel for the race, because everyone and their mother makes a fucking point to insult you, cheese you, leave rather than play you, or are just generally forced to divert from their regular build in order to stay safe.
Random players are having fun! What a bunch of idiots!
Yeah all random players are idiots because we don't want to do something completely fucking stupid like roll a dice because YOU single racers lose your friggin minds at the sight of a random. "OMG A RANDOM! I better cheese him because he's going to cheese me and his cheeses are magically better than EVERY other cheese because he's a random!" I've had people 6 pool me on Condemned Ridge and then curse me out because I play random and say it's totally unfair, ignore the fact that he 6 pooled on condemned ridge, no, it's cause I'm random. Please, get real lmao.
i feel like random should not be removed, it forces unorthodox play which is good in general unless you face it 9 of 10 times lol. also random gives opportunity to get more achievement points and portraits..
First it was discussions about playing random, now it's just straight out telling me I shouldn't be playing random? This has to end.
This is a game and the ladder where it is the only real, simple, effortless arena to play it in. As a random player I don't care about how this affects you or what I'm learning, I'm doing this for enjoyment. Consequently no amount of threads, arguements or reasoning will convince me otherwise.
I derive the most enjoyment from random and I don't plan on stopping.
Yes this is entirely selfish, and yes this may not help me improve, but really does playing on ladder and going FFE EVERY SINGLE PvZ really do anything different. No, it doesnt. You learn how to play one way against one opening and one playstyle. Maybe you should play gateway openings more often, you might learn something.
The question of whether I cheese or not is entirely irrelevant by this OPs reasoning. To be quite honest I would rather see a thread entitled, "why 6-pool or 8 minute banebust is a waste of everyone's time," because I think that is more of an issue than the 1 in 30 random players. I get cheesed by some garbage strat every other game, and for me, that's a bigger waste of time and bigger nuisance than the occasional, once a week, random player. That being said I don't go around making threads about it, because I understand that everyone plays this game for their owns reasons and they're welcomed to it.
Maybe for the cheesing individual he just wants wins as fast as possible or maybe he just feeds off the anger and tears of other ladder players. Whatever the case, that's his prerogative, and as much as I don't share or respect it, it's his decision and he's welcome to play whatever style he wants. By the same token I also reserve the right to rage all over him every game, probably just feeding his fire, but whatever.
This whole you randoms should be doing X arguement is a pile of garbage. It's a game, and everyone who plays it should be entitled to do whatever the hell they want, as long they aren't be malicious or breaking the ToS. It's a free world and a free battle.net, trying to make arbitrary rules for one set of players is stupid.
On August 23 2012 09:59 hahagag wrote: You could always just tell the other person your race.
It'd be unwise of them to trust you, though. People lie. I've had randoms lie to me about their race before. Even if you are being honest, it's still better to discard it as useless information.
What you are saying is you shouldn't play random because you don't learn the standard p/t/z metagame. And you claim proof to this is that players don't react in standard metagame ways. Extremely flawed because therefor random has its own metagame.
If anything this is an advantage as you will most likely get much more practice against non-random players and see how they react than they will against random players.
If players react to getting a random opponent in a non-standard way, then random has its own metagame, which if you want to play random is just as much worth learning about as the p/t/z metagames.
This hate is pathetic , the arguments posted here, some people here too and sadly it seems they get support. People come with the logic that if you play random you won't learn anything, that random players are worst then you, random is so easy etc. There is no top random player , this means random isn't that overpowerd. The reasons posted in this topic are so crap it's incredible... : 1. The hate ... i admit randoms get more hate sometimes but in the lower levels.. and don't tell me you never got any hate by playing p, z or t ...there is somebody who always rages. 2. The you are not learning because you don't face standard builds ... for example the famous PvR(zerg) - i assume in your incredible judgement you realized what's standard in pvz it's not standard in pvr. When i meet a protoss on ladder , i expect 2 gate proxy , it's standard for random. There are lots of other build that usually happen versus random but not in general , mainly cheese. 3. The "you can't defend hatch first versus 1 gate zelot pressure" especially if the gate is in his main .... let's be serious really proves your understanding of the game. 4. The random people cheese the most ... when people say i proxy 2 gate , 6 pool etc. I admit i all in sometimes , but hey remember what would should a "standard zerg" do in zvp if protoss goes 1 gate expand with no cannons ? What does a "standard zerg" do when terran goes 3 cc , double ebay - clocked banshee ? The random guy does 6 pool ... oh wait wasn't there a guide posted "6 pooling to GM" or something like that ?. Didn't we have that 2 rax rush with call supply that kind of owned people ? The list can go on. 5. The feel the race ... i don't wanna bother to explain who goes direcly calling random people idiots... 6. "I am really putting this directly at the randoms on ladder who are plat or below who don't tell their race." - from this i belive you are plat or below , i might be wrong but if anyone belives the reason they can't advance it's because they lose to random players , you should really focus on searching a way to improve your gameplay and not blame the game.
In conclusion : you know why there aren't random players at the top? because really good players CAN adapt and undestand the game and random players can't practice 3 times more then a normal player to face the late games. Go watch a guide , ask for help , get better and you will see it's not because of people who play random.
I think this should be closed and all the other topics on why we shouldn't play random... there are insults posted here and nothing is done. Sorry for my typos.
One thing I'd just like to highlight to the OP is that not everyone plays the game to improve / go pro or whatever. Some people are just happy to play Random for the increased variety of games.
(From a 2 years High Masters Random player)
EDIT: Dammit, guy above me beat me to it, haha. <3
On August 23 2012 10:34 PersonDudeGuy wrote: All my builds open essentially the exact same and diverge at ordinary scout times so playing against random is never dangerous for me. Playing random for the sole purpose of collecting ladder points by abusing metagame is kind of short sighted in my opinion.
Playing SC2 in itself is incredibly short-sighted too you know? I mean seriously, do you honestly expect to become a pro-gamer one day? And even if you do, do you think you'll find a super stable source of income that way? Fact is, Starcraft 2 is a video game. It's a hobby, meant for entertainment, you should really only play for fun. Some people obviously need to come to grips with that.
On August 23 2012 10:34 PersonDudeGuy wrote: All my builds open essentially the exact same and diverge at ordinary scout times so playing against random is never dangerous for me. Playing random for the sole purpose of collecting ladder points by abusing metagame is kind of short sighted in my opinion.
Playing SC2 in itself is incredibly short-sighted too you know? I mean seriously, do you honestly expect to become a pro-gamer one day? And even if you do, do you think you'll find a super stable source of income that way? Fact is, Starcraft 2 is a video game. It's a hobby, meant for entertainment, you should really only play for fun. Some people obviously need to come to grips with that.
So true.
True for some, but not for others. Like any job, you have to put in a ton of effort in order to become good, and it's not for everyone.
On August 23 2012 10:34 PersonDudeGuy wrote: All my builds open essentially the exact same and diverge at ordinary scout times so playing against random is never dangerous for me. Playing random for the sole purpose of collecting ladder points by abusing metagame is kind of short sighted in my opinion.
Playing SC2 in itself is incredibly short-sighted too you know? I mean seriously, do you honestly expect to become a pro-gamer one day? And even if you do, do you think you'll find a super stable source of income that way? Fact is, Starcraft 2 is a video game. It's a hobby, meant for entertainment, you should really only play for fun. Some people obviously need to come to grips with that.
So true.
True for some, but not for others. Like any job, you have to put in a ton of effort in order to become good, and it's not for everyone.
On August 23 2012 10:34 PersonDudeGuy wrote: All my builds open essentially the exact same and diverge at ordinary scout times so playing against random is never dangerous for me. Playing random for the sole purpose of collecting ladder points by abusing metagame is kind of short sighted in my opinion.
Playing SC2 in itself is incredibly short-sighted too you know? I mean seriously, do you honestly expect to become a pro-gamer one day? And even if you do, do you think you'll find a super stable source of income that way? Fact is, Starcraft 2 is a video game. It's a hobby, meant for entertainment, you should really only play for fun. Some people obviously need to come to grips with that.
So true.
True for some, but not for others. Like any job, you have to put in a ton of effort in order to become good, and it's not for everyone.
If you are part of that 1% that has the capability to go pro, my hat is off to you, good job, now go join a team and find some actual practice partners that'll help you improve beyond muscle-memory laddering. If you're like the rest of us who play for enjoyment, I'd advise you to get your priorities straight.
All I got from this thread is that somebody out there who takes starcraft 2 a little too seriously lost badly to a random player who didn't tell him his race, and now he wants people to remove random from the ladder selections. He then proceeds to try to cover everything up with the usual reasons like 'random players don't follow the metagame' and 'you're not improving'. Please, what metagame is there below masters? Whoever macros better wins anyways. Fuck that shit, I'm switching to random, if only to piss off people like the OP.
I find it boring to play only one race in a game that has 3 of them.
But i'm now only playing protoss because i'm too bad with the others. If i didin't want to reach diamond/master (i'm plat) league i would still be playing random. Makes you train with the 3 races, makes you find the one that really fits you the most and makes every game unique. When you're playing 10 PvZ in a row, it's more or less all the same, when you play 10 RvZ in a row, it's never the same :D
Also : MorroW, Guineapig, GuMiHo, Nerchio, TLO, Superstar, ...
On August 23 2012 10:34 PersonDudeGuy wrote: All my builds open essentially the exact same and diverge at ordinary scout times so playing against random is never dangerous for me. Playing random for the sole purpose of collecting ladder points by abusing metagame is kind of short sighted in my opinion.
Playing SC2 in itself is incredibly short-sighted too you know? I mean seriously, do you honestly expect to become a pro-gamer one day? And even if you do, do you think you'll find a super stable source of income that way? Fact is, Starcraft 2 is a video game. It's a hobby, meant for entertainment, you should really only play for fun. Some people obviously need to come to grips with that.
So true.
True for some, but not for others. Like any job, you have to put in a ton of effort in order to become good, and it's not for everyone.
It's not a job for most people who play it
I meant if you want it as a career choice, it's like any Edit: some jobs and you have to put in everything if you want to live well.
I wonder how far a Random player could get by telling people the wrong race at the start and then countering the choice the opponent usually makes in the current metagame?
I'm a firm believer Random should show race and I have played Random for a season or two now.
On August 23 2012 16:29 Suc wrote: I just tell people my race straight away, solves the problem.
Some people say what their race isn't to trick the other player while doing a cheese, such as telling a Protoss that they're Zerg while going 3rax all-in.
On August 23 2012 16:33 Tobberoth wrote: Another random topic, yay.
Blizzard should obviously make it so random shows race, but they won't, because too many people enjoy using Random to cheese.
that must be the exact reason why sc vanilla had random...
i'm not sure why mods are leaving both threads open because its just a cycle of complaints and those complaints being refuted.
I wouldnt mind loading screen showing "random z/t/p", i rarely face ffe in zvp because im random. Word Random needs to be added for "in your face" factor
On August 23 2012 16:29 Suc wrote: I just tell people my race straight away, solves the problem.
Some people say what their race isn't to trick the other player while doing a cheese, such as telling a Protoss that they're Zerg while going 3rax all-in.
Yeah people always say "I don't believe you" or something, but they're always shocked and say "wow, sorry" when they see I was telling the truth, haha.
Even if you aren't learning standard builds, why does it matter? You aren't playing against them, because you're playing random. No reason to learn what a standard pvz opens with if you aren't going to play any
On August 23 2012 10:34 PersonDudeGuy wrote: All my builds open essentially the exact same and diverge at ordinary scout times so playing against random is never dangerous for me. Playing random for the sole purpose of collecting ladder points by abusing metagame is kind of short sighted in my opinion.
Playing SC2 in itself is incredibly short-sighted too you know? I mean seriously, do you honestly expect to become a pro-gamer one day? And even if you do, do you think you'll find a super stable source of income that way? Fact is, Starcraft 2 is a video game. It's a hobby, meant for entertainment, you should really only play for fun. Some people obviously need to come to grips with that.
So true.
True for some, but not for others. Like any job, you have to put in a ton of effort in order to become good, and it's not for everyone.
Riiight... just like some people clean houses for fun. Just like you need to put in a ton of effort to be good at handling the cash register.
In general, all this fuss about random is a bit retarded. For 99% of the players, I really doubt playing random will help them get ladder wins. It just gets boring as shit playing the same race over and over, so hell, let me have fun and play my damn random in peace.
On August 23 2012 10:34 PersonDudeGuy wrote: All my builds open essentially the exact same and diverge at ordinary scout times so playing against random is never dangerous for me. Playing random for the sole purpose of collecting ladder points by abusing metagame is kind of short sighted in my opinion.
Playing SC2 in itself is incredibly short-sighted too you know? I mean seriously, do you honestly expect to become a pro-gamer one day? And even if you do, do you think you'll find a super stable source of income that way? Fact is, Starcraft 2 is a video game. It's a hobby, meant for entertainment, you should really only play for fun. Some people obviously need to come to grips with that.
So true.
True for some, but not for others. Like any job, you have to put in a ton of effort in order to become good, and it's not for everyone.
It's not a job for most people who play it
I meant if you want it as a career choice, it's like any Edit: some jobs and you have to put in everything if you want to live well.
With the exception this issue is irrelevant to those who want to go pro anyways, generally speaking, since Random isn't encountered really at all on the pro scene.
On August 23 2012 16:29 Suc wrote: I just tell people my race straight away, solves the problem.
Some people say what their race isn't to trick the other player while doing a cheese, such as telling a Protoss that they're Zerg while going 3rax all-in.
I must admit this is less of an issue at my level where I mass game and encounter the same people frequently on the ladder, most people I encounter know by now I don't lie^^.
Well, I got news for the OP : I don't give a shit that I'm not learning the correct current metagames builds because I play for fun and have no intentions of becoming a progamer.
So yeah.. if you could just stop telling me what to do and just learn to deal with the game as it's designed (it includes an random option) and stop QQing, that would be nice.
Btw, here are some ideas for your next posts : "Why you should tell your opponents when you cheese". "Why you should only play macro grames". "Why you should check with your opponents if he knows the build you're doing before doing it otherwise he might not answer properly and you won't learn anything".
On August 23 2012 17:38 31415926535 wrote: Well, I got news for the OP : I don't give a shit that I'm not learning the correct current metagames builds because I play for fun and have no intentions of becoming a progamer.
So yeah.. if you could just stop telling me what to do and just learn to deal with the game as it's designed (it includes an random option) and stop QQing, that would be nice.
Btw, here are some ideas for your next posts : "Why you should tell your opponents when you cheese". "Why you should only play macro grames". "Why you should check with your opponents if he knows the build you're doing before doing it otherwise he might not answer properly and you won't learn anything".
Random shouldnt affect lower level players from learning b/c the metagame does not dictate the winner. Better macro does. Plain and simple mechanics will carry a player by itself to Master's not playing the metagame. Even if the player is in top Master's as random that's impressive to say the least, and the better player yet again should win. Random isn't some end all imbalanced 4th race. It's using mild surprise tactics and that's it, and once it's scouted it's a standard game. But that's just how I see it.
Honestly I do not disagree with any of the OP points except the description states "Ladder" not "Tournament/Pro". Playing random can actually put you behind just as easily as the opponent depending on skill level. You referenced PvZ in your match up where you play the same match up but from different perspectives.
I am really putting this directly at the randoms on ladder who are plat or below who don't tell their race.
This is what completely confuses me, because honestly at plat and below for sure, the true meta game is not the meta game. I started playing this game in beta, I was about 12 when SC1 first hit the shelves and I got it at the nearest store but was never amazing didn't even have a race or understand higher thinking. So when I played after the game came out, i went 0-5 placement into bronze. I wanted to get better and worked my way up to plat in season 1, and in season 2 I made it to diamond. A person who is say gold level, playing someone versus gold level does not matter what races are what. It just really doesn't matter if i'm playing a T,Z, or P or even do not know, because even if they try to cheese it's just not that good of a cheese and you can easily defend them, no matter your race or your opponents race b/c after you defend it and you have 14-15 workers still and he destroyed your econ, he still only have 7 or 8 and is building more buildings to attack with.
I just do not see the problem with random on the ladder because 1) if you honestly want to be pro this is the type of things you need to be able to EASILY handle at levels below plat. 2) They are a race, if you get a map they can spawn 4 places scout early see what they are and count workers, if there are only 2 late scout you know where you are going, get the little extra econ in case it's a mirror match and scout them a little later just scout and do not freak when you see 2 gateways or cannons or bunkers being built at your base. If you defend at that level you win 3) Have fun on the ladder, in reality you have many many many losses ahead of you, and if the ones to random are making you mad wait till you really do have a 5 base macro game where you throw your infestors just inside snipe range and lose them all then get rolled over 1 miss click.
Playing random only makes your ability to read, react and dictate the match that much easier, because once they spawn they have already decided the build that they are going most likely since they know your race. You get to read and react to what they plan on doing from the start. That's probably the best part, they have a specific type of play they want to do in the matchup and you can exploit it's weakness' once you see what they are trying to do.
What your opponent enjoys is the most important, because everyone can play how they want. You can win vs it all if played right, so their race shouldn't matter at that level.
*Edit- if On August 23 2012 18:02 Geiko wrote:
On August 23 2012 17:38 31415926535 wrote:On topic, I think what OP meant was that random players who are proud that they know "how to play all three races" really only know how to play random... If you're planning on switching to the race you like the most after, then playing random is detrimental to your learning.
Is correct to what the OP was stating, the above was on the meta game differences, not on being able to switch to a primary race from random
Random is a race in itself. Some people like to learn it. Yes, the way the other races play against random is different than how they play each other, that's part of what makes random a unique race. I agree, to learn other races really well, it's better to off-race. Not everyone has this goal when they play random though. Some just want to play random. That said, there are also crazy people like me who always open hatch first vs random.
On August 23 2012 17:38 31415926535 wrote: Well, I got news for the OP : I don't give a shit that I'm not learning the correct current metagames builds because I play for fun and have no intentions of becoming a progamer.
So yeah.. if you could just stop telling me what to do and just learn to deal with the game as it's designed (it includes an random option) and stop QQing, that would be nice.
Btw, here are some ideas for your next posts : "Why you should tell your opponents when you cheese". "Why you should only play macro grames". "Why you should check with your opponents if he knows the build you're doing before doing it otherwise he might not answer properly and you won't learn anything".
I actually do this when I'm testing out all-ins.
"going to 4 gate blink-obs all-in you, you should build a bunker in main and be ready to pull some SCVs"
"1 base immortal sentry push, get some speedlings before 10minute mark"
and so on... It's great for getting good practice instead of facing some idiot zerg who gets 75 drones while you're on 1 base or terrans who go fast 3 CC without scouting your 4 gate blink.
On topic, I think what OP meant was that random players who are proud that they know "how to play all three races" really only know how to play random... If you're planning on switching to the race you like the most after, then playing random is detrimental to your learning.
I don't see the problem. You could argue that playing random has its own meta and consequently you do not need to play the standard matchups meta at all. There really isn't a lot of validity.
I've started playing random abit and I give away my race if I spawn a ZvP/ZvZ (or if asked), in other cases the building placement/opening before scouting isn't THAT detrimental to the game experience. The reason i play random nowadays, after a longer break, is;
a) Didn't like PvP even though it's (still) my best matchup. b) Every race kind of requires different skillsets that will strenghten you as a player when you finally pick a race c) you can catch up with the metagame if you ever want to play more serious (gonna be hard though, buts that part of the charm of sc) d) If you really got the talent and dedication to "go pro"/play really serious, it doesn't really matter which race you play until you are at a high Master level anyway (imo)! e) Having more fun and learning much more about the game than if I'd go back just playing PvX on a diamond-low master level!
Random is a coin flip game in my opinion. Especially for Protoss. Because they cannot forge fast expand against a random, especially when the scout the last place on a 4 player map. I have always said, play random, but the loading screen should reveal what race you are playing. Most people that play random play it to abuse this in my opinion. Most of my games vs random are all 1 base players. I like how the option is there for people wanting a variety but it SHOULD reveal the race.
Luckily I live in a free democratic country in europe and free to choose playing random on the ladder, like it or not. If I am bad or not is of no interest for you. You don't even consider all the possibilities why someone plays random:
- don't care about ladder, - just play for fun, - boring to play only 1 race, - getting other achievements, - couldn't decide on 1 race,
Master Random on EU account here. And 98% of my games are Macro games. Now pick some other topic where you can bash other people.
How many randoms are out there? Like 2% - 3%? Wow... really a concern. C'mooooon.
On August 23 2012 17:38 31415926535 wrote: Well, I got news for the OP : I don't give a shit that I'm not learning the correct current metagames builds because I play for fun and have no intentions of becoming a progamer.
So yeah.. if you could just stop telling me what to do and just learn to deal with the game as it's designed (it includes an random option) and stop QQing, that would be nice.
Btw, here are some ideas for your next posts : "Why you should tell your opponents when you cheese". "Why you should only play macro grames". "Why you should check with your opponents if he knows the build you're doing before doing it otherwise he might not answer properly and you won't learn anything".
I actually do this when I'm testing out all-ins.
"going to 4 gate blink-obs all-in you, you should build a bunker in main and be ready to pull some SCVs"
"1 base immortal sentry push, get some speedlings before 10minute mark"
and so on... It's great for getting good practice instead of facing some idiot zerg who gets 75 drones while you're on 1 base or terrans who go fast 3 CC without scouting your 4 gate blink.
On topic, I think what OP meant was that random players who are proud that they know "how to play all three races" really only know how to play random... If you're planning on switching to the race you like the most after, then playing random is detrimental to your learning.
Yeah but a lot of people could assume you're lying, and that you're trying to get them defensive so that you can get an advantage in economy to crush them with later. But I guess if its working for you most people just assume you're telling the truth? Seems kind of risky, hopefully everyone will just learn how to scout
Sure no one can stop you from picking random, but it is just a very selfish way of playing all the races, when one could just use some dice or random generator to pick a concrete race for each game. You are negatively affecting the fun/practice of your opponents. But I guess if you solely play to win, you'll take any advantage you can get, huh.
On August 24 2012 08:40 Penecks wrote: Sure no one can stop you from picking random, but it is just a very selfish way of playing all the races, when one could just use some dice or random generator to pick a concrete race for each game. You are negatively affecting the fun/practice of your opponents. But I guess if you solely play to win, you'll take any advantage you can get, huh.
That's why there are so many top tier random players? Ever go on 20+ game losing streaks? Random is random, it's good for ladder and good for the game. Adapt.
Random is a legitimate race choice, with its advantages and disadvantages. You're basically telling the random players to gimp themselves for you so that you have a better chance against them, nullifying the ONLY advantage they get in their matches.
You know that random players have to learn 12 different matchups, if you include random as a race selection? You might as well trouble yourself to learn a 4th... if random was so hard to beat, why isn't masters full of them? Stop complaining so much.
Enough with these threads! Stop whining. People like you are just weaker that those who can withstand a fair challenge.
On August 24 2012 08:40 Penecks wrote: Sure no one can stop you from picking random, but it is just a very selfish way of playing all the races, when one could just use some dice or random generator to pick a concrete race for each game. You are negatively affecting the fun/practice of your opponents. But I guess if you solely play to win, you'll take any advantage you can get, huh.
That's why there are so many top tier random players? Ever go on 20+ game losing streaks? Random is random, it's good for ladder and good for the game. Adapt.
When everyone is practicing 8+ hours (assuming this is what you mean by top tier) then of course the guy who only gets a third of that playtime as any one race is going to suffer. But in a ladder environment (aka, most people here) you will find opponents who play 3 games a day all the way up to people who play for hours. It's just not a valid comparison, or a good argument simply due to the differences there.
20 games losing streak? Maybe not that severe, but I've certainly come close
Man I've hit 20+ losing streaks more than once as random. But then I come back with a 15 game win streak. All depends on what matchups I get. That's why I love playing random.
On August 24 2012 09:16 BreakfastBurrito wrote: didnt oz 1 gate FE and beat stephano 4-1 "normal metagame" is so dumb you can play against random THE EXACT SAME as you go against other races
On August 24 2012 09:16 BreakfastBurrito wrote: didnt oz 1 gate FE and beat stephano 4-1 "normal metagame" is so dumb you can play against random THE EXACT SAME as you go against other races
Ye I'll just FFE and hope I face a zerg.
Nearly a third of Protosses still Forge FE anyways. Some build their first pylon as if they were going to forge FE, and if their opponent is Terran, they go Nexus first instead. The majority however build their pylon arbitrarily for the first one, scout that you're Zerg, drop a second pylon down at the bottom of the ramp, then go forge nexus cannon. The second pylon does not significantly hurt you, as you can continue to produce probes whereas otherwise if you did not build the second pylon, you'd cut probes. And let's be honest, how many Protosses use a pylon to block a Zerg's natural anyways, and let it finish, while the Zerg simply takes a third instead?
Please, it's not a major difference. It's a minor, minor drawback.
I dislike the idea of how people perceive matchups with random in it. Many people say that random is dumb/unfair when the random rolls Z vs P because they can't FFE. For one, just because you can't FFE does not mean that you auto-lose or are incredibly far behind by any means.
People should be considering vs R as a 4th matchup with its own meta game. In RvP, the metagame is a gateway first opening because of the uncertainty of the opponents race. This metagame also develops at a much slower pace relative to the metagame of other MUs, because of the smaller portion of random players on ladder.
As you said, you have to treat a zerg differently from a terran differently from a protoss. It's no different with a random, you have to treat a random as its own race with its own capabilities. What you're saying seems like complaining that people can build cloaking units like DTs or banshees. Yes, they can, and you can't know without scouting, but it's not broken or a problem, it's just something you have to account for.
Random has some pretty strong disadvantages as well: distributed practice means slow progression and you don't get to veto maps based on racial advantages.
On August 23 2012 06:58 BloodNinja wrote: I play random because its fun and I play to have fun. So why shouldn't I play random and have fun? Why exactly should I care about the metagame? Its not like I plan on going pro (or even hitting GM on ladder).
What this guy said, 100%. I play to have fun, and random is fun. That's pretty much it. And it's starting to make it even more fun for me knowing that random pisses so many people off.
On August 24 2012 08:40 Penecks wrote: Sure no one can stop you from picking random, but it is just a very selfish way of playing all the races, when one could just use some dice or random generator to pick a concrete race for each game. You are negatively affecting the fun/practice of your opponents. But I guess if you solely play to win, you'll take any advantage you can get, huh.
lol, i hope this was sarcasm and ive been trolled
Who are you to declare what someone wants to play as selfish? Sounds kinda selfish to declare any random player themselves selfish just because in your own personal opinion it ruins your fun. Good thing the ladder wasn't made for fun, let alone yours.
Also, isn't picking a single race taking an advantage to win since Random isn't viable at high levels anyways?
I get the point he's trying to make - but I don't think he worded it that well imo..
eitherway, I really don't think it hurts you in anyway, playing in uncomfortable positions can help players improve in their split second decision making, being able to adjust on the fly is what makes the better players on top usually - superior mechanics tend to shine through in these situations. Sure being able to learn and play the metagame properly is nice and all, but at the same time, if you focus on it too much, it makes you incredibly vulnerable when your opponent plays an unorthodox style I think.
The way I see it, if you're going to bitch, bitch about your own race, it's not Randoms fault that Protoss can't FFE because their OWN race punishes expansions so heavily.
Just another way to look at it, since we're on the topic.XD
In the world of Street Fighter competition, there is a word for players who aren't good: "scrub." Everyone begins as a scrub---it takes time to learn the game to get to a point where you know what you're doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or "learn" the game, that one can become a top player. In reality, the "scrub" has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He's lost the game before he's chosen his character. He's lost the game even before the decision of which game is to be played has been made. His problem? He does not play to win.
The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevent him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. In Street Fighter, for example, the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations "cheap." So-called "cheapness" is truly the mantra of the scrub.
I am sorry if this copy was harmful to its author, and I can remove it asap. However, I guess that this won't be a problem.
nothing wrong with random.. its not like you have to follow the meta-game. you decide how to play out the game.. getting the other player off kilter isnt a bad thing either..
What the author is saying that if you are playing Random for the purpose of learning all three races (so that you can race pick later on) you will be quite disappointed because the games that result from race-picking and the games that result from randoming tend to be VERY different.
If you are learning Random for the sake of playing Random in a tournament then that is totally fine. But you need to think about Random as a race of it's own, and not a way to learn all three races. The only way to actually learn all three races is to race-pick. Randoming causes you to face many different builds that you would never face in a race-pick scenario. You will be at a disadvantage when race-picking because, for example, you won't be used to playing against a FFE with ZvP.
To reiterate, Random is perfectly valid race choice, but there are certain aspects of the game you don't learn with Random. If you decide to start race-picking you will find yourself at a disadvantage because you will have ZERO experience playing against certain styles (FFE most notably, but CC first in ZvT to a lesser extent). Also, you will have spent a lot of time playing against people who use sub-optimal strategies (such as pool first in ZvT because they are afraid you might be P), so a lot of that practice will be wasted if you eventually switch to playing one race.
In the world of Street Fighter competition, there is a word for players who aren't good: "scrub." Everyone begins as a scrub---it takes time to learn the game to get to a point where you know what you're doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or "learn" the game, that one can become a top player. In reality, the "scrub" has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He's lost the game before he's chosen his character. He's lost the game even before the decision of which game is to be played has been made. His problem? He does not play to win.
The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevent him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. In Street Fighter, for example, the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations "cheap." So-called "cheapness" is truly the mantra of the scrub.
I am sorry if this copy was harmful to its author, and I can remove it asap. However, I guess that this won't be a problem.
You should re-read the OP. He wasn't calling Random a "scrub" tactic so your Sirlin article is irrelevant (although it is a good article and very relevant to many aspects of Starcraft).
He was pointing out that randoming causes non-standard situations to arise, making Random not a good way to learn the individual races (for the purpose of race-picking). Playing Random teaches you how to play Random; it doesn't teach you how to play each race in a race-pick situation. OP's attitude is slightly flawed though because he assumes that people play Random in order to learn each race. Some people just want to play Random as a race of it's own, in which case randoming is the best way to play for them.
I thought playing random was a pretty good way to learn, it got me all the way to mid-masters, and when I switched to race picking it was really easy to play against all of the normal standard matchups as well. Though it may have more to do with the way I was playing random.
I auto six pool vs random players, I have 2/3 of a chance of doing the correct move, either I win or lose fast, and I can go against a real player to get some real practice.
I play in tournaments and lans in my country and I cant see any benefits of playing against a random player or being one.
Honestly it seems like people are being way too harsh. I don't see him saying that you're a bad person for playing random and that you should change because he says so, he's just offering his opinion as to why playing random is bad from a specific perspective...if you disagree with it or explain alternate reasons then he'd probably be fine with it, unless you see him explicitly tell you "No only my reason matters, you're a noob for trying to have fun"...which has never happened
I like how in randomZvP, you all of a sudden create your own metagame! You get to expo while to be safe they have to make their buildings at their ramp. (I swear this leads to soo many 4 gates/etc all-ins). Its honestly awesome. However to the point of the thread: I think the poster is mostly wrong. The metagame is like this shifting, messy thing, which noone but pros truly understand. Also in random play the only real thing that seems very different to me are the openings and pre- 7min timing stuff. Unit-wise random players mostly use like standard compositions and the late game is def. the same. I feel like real things that hinder peeps improvement are like mechanics and multitasking and reaction time vs. attacks/drops. Pretty sure a good random player switching to a single race will pick up the current metagame without much problem, especially if they do a bit of teamliquid research. And I'm pretty sure a bad random player switching to a single race will continue to be bad. A third point: cheesing as a random player can be some good stress relief =D
Wowwwww. Guy admits it's his first shot at a real thread and here come the buttholes to smear him. Cut him some slack?
I see what point you're making and I think it's a valid concern. However, I agree with the guy on the first page that says, basically, random has its own metagame to worry about. So, even if you do play random, you're still getting quality experience - just as good as not playing random.
On August 24 2012 11:35 radscorpion9 wrote: Honestly it seems like people are being way too harsh. I don't see him saying that you're a bad person for playing random and that you should change because he says so, he's just offering his opinion as to why playing random is bad from a specific perspective...if you disagree with it or explain alternate reasons then he'd probably be fine with it, unless you see him explicitly tell you "No only my reason matters, you're a noob for trying to have fun"...which has never happened
A big part is the wording of the title, "Why you shouldn't be playing random" Regardless of his intent, the way it's worded sounds like he is telling you that you should be doing, if the title was something more like "An issue with playing random" or, looking at his reasoning, "Why playing random isn't an effective way to practice and improve" then I think there would be more discussion of his point (Which personally I disagree with) than people being too harsh to him.
But the reason why I disagree a ton with playing random is;
And there in lies the problem of this thread being incredibly stupid and pointless.
Just because you disagree, it doesn't mean everyone else should agree/disagree with this opinion.
If the was thread titled was "Why I believe people shouldn't play random" then the thread just becomes pointless and not incredibly stupid, but as it is, the thread title implies fact when the op is purely opinion.
On August 24 2012 11:18 theBlues wrote: I auto six pool vs random players, I have 2/3 of a chance of doing the correct move, either I win or lose fast, and I can go against a real player to get some real practice.
I play in tournaments and lans in my country and I cant see any benefits of playing against a random player or being one.
Yeah, random players aren't "real" players! Only people I think are playing the game correctly are!
Hmm, sort of silly. I do agree that it messes up the "standard" play of the game, but it's a strategy game, if you cannot learn strategies to outplay your opponent despite any disadvantage, then you shouldn't take it competitively. If you don't play competitively, you shouldn't care whether or not you are Grandmaster league or if you're bronze/win or lose. I play the game for the fun of doing fun strategies and dicking around. I'm masterleague, but I don't give two shits whether I lose the game either. I've played a lot of matches.
Even though it gives the random player an advantage, it also makes the game more interesting. I don't completely disagree with you, just only to an extent. I would probably reveal my race if I played random because I like challenges and strategy, not winning.
On August 24 2012 12:18 Blargh wrote: Hmm, sort of silly. I do agree that it messes up the "standard" play of the game, but it's a strategy game, if you cannot learn strategies to outplay your opponent despite any disadvantage, then you shouldn't take it competitively. If you don't play competitively, you shouldn't care whether or not you are Grandmaster league or if you're bronze/win or lose. I play the game for the fun of doing fun strategies and dicking around. I'm masterleague, but I don't give two shits whether I lose the game either. I've played a lot of matches.
Even though it gives the random player an advantage, it also makes the game more interesting. I don't completely disagree with you, just only to an extent. I would probably reveal my race if I played random because I like challenges and strategy, not winning.
But if your playing competitively you shouldn't really have to worry about playing at a disadvantage from the beginning of the game for no real reason.
I don't think anyone here is seriously arguing that random shouldn't be in the game or that it isn't fun to play random for the sake of getting to play all the races but it just doesn't seem fair to force someone else into a disadvantage because of a choice someone else made that you have no say in. If anything if one player wants to play random and have his race hidden, both players race should be hidden to each other. That way random players can have their "unique metagame" with out getting an automatic build order advantage vs someone who picks their race.
On August 24 2012 12:18 Blargh wrote: Hmm, sort of silly. I do agree that it messes up the "standard" play of the game, but it's a strategy game, if you cannot learn strategies to outplay your opponent despite any disadvantage, then you shouldn't take it competitively. If you don't play competitively, you shouldn't care whether or not you are Grandmaster league or if you're bronze/win or lose. I play the game for the fun of doing fun strategies and dicking around. I'm masterleague, but I don't give two shits whether I lose the game either. I've played a lot of matches.
Even though it gives the random player an advantage, it also makes the game more interesting. I don't completely disagree with you, just only to an extent. I would probably reveal my race if I played random because I like challenges and strategy, not winning.
But if your playing competitively you shouldn't really have to worry about playing at a disadvantage from the beginning of the game for no real reason.
I don't think anyone here is seriously arguing that random shouldn't be in the game or that it isn't fun to play random for the sake of getting to play all the races but it just doesn't seem fair to force someone else into a disadvantage because of a choice someone else made that you have no say in. If anything if one player wants to play random and have his race hidden, both players race should be hidden to each other. That way random players can have their "unique metagame" with out getting an automatic build order advantage vs someone who picks their race.
You realize the difference in the lack of information vs the lack of practice your opponent has turns the game in a monumental advantage for yourself? Stop with the disadvantage bullshit already. If someone chooses to cheese you and force a metagame you don't want to play you also don't have control over that either. It's such a dumb basis to argue upon against random.
On August 24 2012 12:18 Blargh wrote: Hmm, sort of silly. I do agree that it messes up the "standard" play of the game, but it's a strategy game, if you cannot learn strategies to outplay your opponent despite any disadvantage, then you shouldn't take it competitively. If you don't play competitively, you shouldn't care whether or not you are Grandmaster league or if you're bronze/win or lose. I play the game for the fun of doing fun strategies and dicking around. I'm masterleague, but I don't give two shits whether I lose the game either. I've played a lot of matches.
Even though it gives the random player an advantage, it also makes the game more interesting. I don't completely disagree with you, just only to an extent. I would probably reveal my race if I played random because I like challenges and strategy, not winning.
But if your playing competitively you shouldn't really have to worry about playing at a disadvantage from the beginning of the game for no real reason.
I don't think anyone here is seriously arguing that random shouldn't be in the game or that it isn't fun to play random for the sake of getting to play all the races but it just doesn't seem fair to force someone else into a disadvantage because of a choice someone else made that you have no say in. If anything if one player wants to play random and have his race hidden, both players race should be hidden to each other. That way random players can have their "unique metagame" with out getting an automatic build order advantage vs someone who picks their race.
You realize the difference in the lack of information vs the lack of practice your opponent has turns the game in a monumental advantage for yourself? Stop with the disadvantage bullshit already. If someone chooses to cheese you and force a metagame you don't want to play you also don't have control over that either. It's such a dumb basis to argue upon against random.
If your laddering against a random player it's safe to assume that their near your skill level at least in most of the match ups in the game so why should their be any artificial advantage/disadvantage for either player, besides random players thinking it's "fun" to play people who aren't prepared for what race their playing? And what does is mean to "force a metagame you don't want to play" by cheesing? I don't think you know what metagame means. Example, 3 cc hellion banshee openers in tvz is very standard in the current metagame. Forcing a protoss player to not get to choose to ffe vs zerg because he doesn't know he's playing a zerg player, putting him at a disadvantage a random player who gets zerg and has the choice of doing their vs protoss build, isn't a metagame. It's creating a disadvantage through something that has nothing to do with either players skill.
edit: If anything a random player will, assuming like everyone else that random players don't understand all the matchups(ignoring the fact that there are plenty of random players that do and are capable of this), his mmr will drop to the point where even if the player doesn't understand match ups at the same level of his opponents the random player will, more the likely, have superior mechanics.
On August 24 2012 12:18 Blargh wrote: Hmm, sort of silly. I do agree that it messes up the "standard" play of the game, but it's a strategy game, if you cannot learn strategies to outplay your opponent despite any disadvantage, then you shouldn't take it competitively. If you don't play competitively, you shouldn't care whether or not you are Grandmaster league or if you're bronze/win or lose. I play the game for the fun of doing fun strategies and dicking around. I'm masterleague, but I don't give two shits whether I lose the game either. I've played a lot of matches.
Even though it gives the random player an advantage, it also makes the game more interesting. I don't completely disagree with you, just only to an extent. I would probably reveal my race if I played random because I like challenges and strategy, not winning.
But if your playing competitively you shouldn't really have to worry about playing at a disadvantage from the beginning of the game for no real reason.
I don't think anyone here is seriously arguing that random shouldn't be in the game or that it isn't fun to play random for the sake of getting to play all the races but it just doesn't seem fair to force someone else into a disadvantage because of a choice someone else made that you have no say in. If anything if one player wants to play random and have his race hidden, both players race should be hidden to each other. That way random players can have their "unique metagame" with out getting an automatic build order advantage vs someone who picks their race.
You realize the difference in the lack of information vs the lack of practice your opponent has turns the game in a monumental advantage for yourself? Stop with the disadvantage bullshit already. If someone chooses to cheese you and force a metagame you don't want to play you also don't have control over that either. It's such a dumb basis to argue upon against random.
If your laddering against a random player it's safe to assume that their near your skill level at least in most of the match ups in the game so why should their be any artificial advantage/disadvantage for either player, besides random players thinking it's "fun" to play people who aren't prepared for what race their playing? And what does is mean to "force a metagame you don't want to play" by cheesing? I don't think you know what metagame means. Example, 3 cc hellion banshee openers in tvz is very standard in the current metagame. Forcing a protoss player to not get to choose to ffe vs zerg because he doesn't know he's playing a zerg player, putting him at a disadvantage a random player who gets zerg and has the choice of doing their vs protoss build, isn't a metagame. It's creating a disadvantage through something that has nothing to do with either players skill.
False. If there is any random advantage and the players were evenly skilled, then random players should have better than a 50-50 ratio. Because Random players still get a 50-50 ratio as you suggest, it means that Random players are on average, less skilled than their counterparts.
Except a Protoss that can't adapt to a 1gate expand in 3% of their games is fucking hilarious. But no, really, keep doing that one same opener and get zero experience varying it up.
On August 24 2012 12:18 Blargh wrote: Hmm, sort of silly. I do agree that it messes up the "standard" play of the game, but it's a strategy game, if you cannot learn strategies to outplay your opponent despite any disadvantage, then you shouldn't take it competitively. If you don't play competitively, you shouldn't care whether or not you are Grandmaster league or if you're bronze/win or lose. I play the game for the fun of doing fun strategies and dicking around. I'm masterleague, but I don't give two shits whether I lose the game either. I've played a lot of matches.
Even though it gives the random player an advantage, it also makes the game more interesting. I don't completely disagree with you, just only to an extent. I would probably reveal my race if I played random because I like challenges and strategy, not winning.
But if your playing competitively you shouldn't really have to worry about playing at a disadvantage from the beginning of the game for no real reason.
I don't think anyone here is seriously arguing that random shouldn't be in the game or that it isn't fun to play random for the sake of getting to play all the races but it just doesn't seem fair to force someone else into a disadvantage because of a choice someone else made that you have no say in. If anything if one player wants to play random and have his race hidden, both players race should be hidden to each other. That way random players can have their "unique metagame" with out getting an automatic build order advantage vs someone who picks their race.
You realize the difference in the lack of information vs the lack of practice your opponent has turns the game in a monumental advantage for yourself? Stop with the disadvantage bullshit already. If someone chooses to cheese you and force a metagame you don't want to play you also don't have control over that either. It's such a dumb basis to argue upon against random.
If your laddering against a random player it's safe to assume that their near your skill level at least in most of the match ups in the game so why should their be any artificial advantage/disadvantage for either player, besides random players thinking it's "fun" to play people who aren't prepared for what race their playing? And what does is mean to "force a metagame you don't want to play" by cheesing? I don't think you know what metagame means. Example, 3 cc hellion banshee openers in tvz is very standard in the current metagame. Forcing a protoss player to not get to choose to ffe vs zerg because he doesn't know he's playing a zerg player, putting him at a disadvantage a random player who gets zerg and has the choice of doing their vs protoss build, isn't a metagame. It's creating a disadvantage through something that has nothing to do with either players skill.
If the "disadvantage" of playing random, i.e. inconsistency, is accounted for in the MM system by consistently losing to 100% equally skilled players, then the "advantage" of playing random, the information advantage, should show up in win rates and be accounted for by MM as well. Basically, if you have a 50% chance to win, your opponent is VERY likely to be worse at the match-up than you are. The disadvantage is imaginary. You're delusional. The only way is for your opponent to have an advantage is to be strictly better than you, which can only happen in lower leagues, as random is not consistent enough to advance without immense skill differentials in their opponents.
Who the fuck cares why someone picks random for fun? It's not your right to judge. And don't insult my intelligence, thanks. If someone 6 pools you your opening is dictated by them. You have no choice. So I guess spawning pools should require an overlord because your fun was ruined.
You need to realize random is a fourth race and must be treated as such. You aren't opening sub-optimally vs a zerg, you're opening optimally vs a random for the highest chance of success. It's not PvZ, it's a PvfuckingR.
In the world of Street Fighter competition, there is a word for players who aren't good: "scrub." Everyone begins as a scrub---it takes time to learn the game to get to a point where you know what you're doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or "learn" the game, that one can become a top player. In reality, the "scrub" has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He's lost the game before he's chosen his character. He's lost the game even before the decision of which game is to be played has been made. His problem? He does not play to win.
The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevent him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. In Street Fighter, for example, the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations "cheap." So-called "cheapness" is truly the mantra of the scrub.
I am sorry if this copy was harmful to its author, and I can remove it asap. However, I guess that this won't be a problem.
You should re-read the OP. He wasn't calling Random a "scrub" tactic so your Sirlin article is irrelevant (although it is a good article and very relevant to many aspects of Starcraft).
He was pointing out that randoming causes non-standard situations to arise, making Random not a good way to learn the individual races (for the purpose of race-picking). Playing Random teaches you how to play Random; it doesn't teach you how to play each race in a race-pick situation. OP's attitude is slightly flawed though because he assumes that people play Random in order to learn each race. Some people just want to play Random as a race of it's own, in which case randoming is the best way to play for them.
Actually I think those articles are quite relevant, though a later one has a better example of why the OP's argument doesn't hold true. From Part 3:
"In other words, playing to win involves exploring. It involves trying several different approaches in a game to see which you are best at, which other players are best at, and which you think will end up being the most effective in the end. .... I practiced pretty hard for a tournament in Super Turbo Street Fighter that occurred on August 9th-11th 2001. Before the tournament, I decided to play only Dhalsim and to practice him a lot against whoever I could. I also happen to actually like the game, and I’d sometimes mess around with my “fun characters” of Honda and Ryu, and occasionally with my “professional” character: Bison. Dhalsim was my focus, though.
When the actual tournament came around, I would have never guessed what it all came down to. My Dhalsim did well, and it came time for me to face a well-known Japanese player who plays T-Hawk. T-Hawk is known to be terrible, especially against Dhalsim, but this was a prime example of a player who could work magic with a “sucky” character. After one game, my Dhalsim was utterly destroyed, and I needed a change of plans. I figured that my “casual play” Honda would do well, since I could sit and do nothing the entire game and be safe from T-Hawk. If he ever got near, I could head-butt and knock him away, then sit and do nothing. (See my article on The Art of War: The Sheathed Sword.) Anyway, my performance, a true exhibition of stubbornness and boringness in tournament play, paid off. I defeated the Japanese player in an utterly ridiculous character matchup that no one would ever predict actually happening in a tournament. I went on to lose another ridiculous character matchup against a different Japanese player, but that’s another story.
The unlikely moral here is that playing to win is often counter-productive. Those who love the game and play to play will uncover the unusual nuances that might be important in a tournament. Those nuances might never be important, but the “play to play” player doesn’t care. It’s all for fun, and he’s happy to accumulate whatever knowledge he can. The “play to win” player might lock himself into perfecting certain tactics/strategies/character that will eventually be obsolete, as hard as that will be to believe at the moment. Meanwhile, the player who is able to take a step back and mess around will either discover new mountains to climb, or at least take a stab at climbing some other known mountains. The joke’s on you when his mountain turns out to be 10 times higher than yours."
In a tournament setting, Sirlin had to turn to his casual, less practiced, less optimal Honda (a gateway expand) instead of his practiced optimal Dhalsim (a FFE) in order to defeat his opponent.
Of course, the OP's argument that you can't learn from a ladder game vR is still moot anyway because you learn far more important skills like crisis management and judgement calls from those games, while custom games with practice partners are what you should be using to perfect specific matchup builds anyway.
So your point is... you shouldn't play random if you want to learn how to play non-random races? I would think that would be obvious. Did you consider that perhaps some people want to learn how to play random?
On August 24 2012 12:18 Blargh wrote: Hmm, sort of silly. I do agree that it messes up the "standard" play of the game, but it's a strategy game, if you cannot learn strategies to outplay your opponent despite any disadvantage, then you shouldn't take it competitively. If you don't play competitively, you shouldn't care whether or not you are Grandmaster league or if you're bronze/win or lose. I play the game for the fun of doing fun strategies and dicking around. I'm masterleague, but I don't give two shits whether I lose the game either. I've played a lot of matches.
Even though it gives the random player an advantage, it also makes the game more interesting. I don't completely disagree with you, just only to an extent. I would probably reveal my race if I played random because I like challenges and strategy, not winning.
But if your playing competitively you shouldn't really have to worry about playing at a disadvantage from the beginning of the game for no real reason.
I don't think anyone here is seriously arguing that random shouldn't be in the game or that it isn't fun to play random for the sake of getting to play all the races but it just doesn't seem fair to force someone else into a disadvantage because of a choice someone else made that you have no say in. If anything if one player wants to play random and have his race hidden, both players race should be hidden to each other. That way random players can have their "unique metagame" with out getting an automatic build order advantage vs someone who picks their race.
You realize the difference in the lack of information vs the lack of practice your opponent has turns the game in a monumental advantage for yourself? Stop with the disadvantage bullshit already. If someone chooses to cheese you and force a metagame you don't want to play you also don't have control over that either. It's such a dumb basis to argue upon against random.
If your laddering against a random player it's safe to assume that their near your skill level at least in most of the match ups in the game so why should their be any artificial advantage/disadvantage for either player, besides random players thinking it's "fun" to play people who aren't prepared for what race their playing? And what does is mean to "force a metagame you don't want to play" by cheesing? I don't think you know what metagame means. Example, 3 cc hellion banshee openers in tvz is very standard in the current metagame. Forcing a protoss player to not get to choose to ffe vs zerg because he doesn't know he's playing a zerg player, putting him at a disadvantage a random player who gets zerg and has the choice of doing their vs protoss build, isn't a metagame. It's creating a disadvantage through something that has nothing to do with either players skill.
If the "disadvantage" of playing random, i.e. inconsistency, is accounted for in the MM system by consistently losing to 100% equally skilled players, then the "advantage" of playing random, the information advantage, should show up in win rates and be accounted for by MM as well. Basically, if you have a 50% chance to win, your opponent is VERY likely to be worse at the match-up than you are. The disadvantage is imaginary. You're delusional. The only way is for your opponent to have an advantage is to be strictly better than you, which can only happen in lower leagues, as random is not consistent enough to advance without immense skill differentials in their opponents.
Who the fuck cares why someone picks random for fun? It's not your right to judge. And don't insult my intelligence, thanks. If someone 6 pools you your opening is dictated by them. You have no choice. So I guess spawning pools should require an overlord because your fun was ruined.
You need to realize random is a fourth race and must be treated as such. You aren't opening sub-optimally vs a zerg, you're opening optimally vs a random for the highest chance of success. It's not PvZ, it's a PvfuckingR.
First I'm not "judging" anyone for playing random and have fun. if anything, I'm judging people who think it's fair for you're opponent to not know your race and try to justify it by pretending that the random player choosing not to share their race is the innocent one, as if his opponent forced him to learn every match up in game or that as a random player you're entitled to anything.
Secondly, why should one player have to open optimally vs the chance of all three races while another player gets pick a match up specific build? Whats wrong with races being hidden for both players if one has chosen random? Whose "fun" and "metagame" does it ruin when both players are on an even playing field?
On August 24 2012 15:34 kill619 wrote: First I'm not "judging" anyone for playing random and have fun. if anything, I'm judging people who think it's fair for you're opponent to not know your race and try to justify it by pretending that the random player choosing not to share their race is the innocent one, as if his opponent forced him to learn every match up in game or that as a random player you're entitled to anything.
1. Choosing not to share your race is the innocent one. That player has done nothing wrong. You're the person accusing the random player of some sort of guilt (or at least implying they aren't innocent) when they are clearly playing within the boundaries of the game.
2. Learning every matchup in the game is a choice and irrelevant.
3. As a random player, you ARE entitled to having your race hidden. You cannot argue that, as it's clearly built into the game as a feature of the random player. The random player can relinquish this right by disclosing his race, but it's absolutely silly to presume they aren't entitled to have their race hidden, at least at the moment.
On August 24 2012 15:34 kill619 wrote:
Secondly, why should one player have to open optimally vs the chance of all three races while another player gets pick a match up specific build? Whats wrong with races being hidden for both players if one has chosen random? Whose "fun" and "metagame" does it ruin when both players are on an even playing field?
Except it is an even playing field. Both sides have the option to choose to play random. You choose not to play random, for whatever reason.
If you're plat and "don't have time to learn all 3 matchups," then isn't it simply your fault that you don't have time, not the fault of the random player who does? Not to mention if you're plat, you're being faced with another plat player who plays random, and, assuming he/she has the same amount of time as you, has a third of the time to practice each specific matchup you get to practice?
And what are your arguments that it's not fair, when all evidence points to random being disadvantageous in terms of statistics on a pro level?
Overall, it's hard to say you have an argument. If random was advantageous, you'd expect to see it as the dominant race choice. However, it is overwhelmingly the least chosen "race." Hiding the race is merely an incentive to pick random. It's not hard to find trends with the most powerful race at the time typically has the most players of that race at the time (remember when the top 10 GM were all Terran, and there were 26 out of the top 30 as Terran on the Korean ladder in GM?).
I always play as standard as possible against its not real metagame (like FE against zerg) but you can atleast train your gate expands. The longer the game goes the more likely I will win the game because the random doesnt has the experience/skills whatever to keep up with a normal player. But most random players cheese anyways so. Just my opinion.
On August 24 2012 15:34 kill619 wrote: First I'm not "judging" anyone for playing random and have fun. if anything, I'm judging people who think it's fair for you're opponent to not know your race and try to justify it by pretending that the random player choosing not to share their race is the innocent one, as if his opponent forced him to learn every match up in game or that as a random player you're entitled to anything.
1. Choosing not to share your race is the innocent one. That player has done nothing wrong. You're the person accusing the random player of some sort of guilt (or at least implying they aren't innocent) when they are clearly playing within the boundaries of the game.
2. Learning every matchup in the game is a choice and irrelevant.
3. As a random player, you ARE entitled to having your race hidden. You cannot argue that, as it's clearly built into the game as a feature of the random player. The random player can relinquish this right by disclosing his race, but it's absolutely silly to presume they aren't entitled to have their race hidden, at least at the moment.
Secondly, why should one player have to open optimally vs the chance of all three races while another player gets pick a match up specific build? Whats wrong with races being hidden for both players if one has chosen random? Whose "fun" and "metagame" does it ruin when both players are on an even playing field?
Except it is an even playing field. Both sides have the option to choose to play random. You choose not to play random, for whatever reason.
If you're plat and "don't have time to learn all 3 matchups," then isn't it simply your fault that you don't have time, not the fault of the random player who does? Not to mention if you're plat, you're being faced with another plat player who plays random, and, assuming he/she has the same amount of time as you, has a third of the time to practice each specific matchup you get to practice?
And what are your arguments that it's not fair, when all evidence points to random being disadvantageous in terms of statistics on a pro level?
Overall, it's hard to say you have an argument. If random was advantageous, you'd expect to see it as the dominant race choice. However, it is overwhelmingly the least chosen "race." Hiding the race is merely an incentive to pick random. It's not hard to find trends with the most powerful race at the time typically has the most players of that race at the time (remember when the top 10 GM were all Terran, and there were 26 out of the top 30 as Terran on the Korean ladder in GM?).
1. Said it once and I'll say it again, I have no problem with people who play random. I just find the "justifications" for intentionally not telling your opponent your race to be ridiculous.
2. It's very relevant actually because it seems to make people feel like it gives them the right to have their race hidden.
3. As a player on a skill based match making system , you ARE NOT entitled to anything that can give you or your opponent an advantage or disadvantage. One player getting to choose what build he wants for the particular match up from the start of a game and the other player not having the same choice is a disadvantage. There are match up specific builds that you can not do unless you know your opponents race from the beginning of the game and/or happen to scout their race quickly enough(ie forge fe)
Both sides can pick random? Is that a real point your trying to make? So when terran's win rate was ridiculous during the beta the game was balanced because,"everyone has the option of picking Terran so that makes it fair." That's a terrible philosophy for designing a multiplier video game for a multitude of reasons, but if you honestly think that's a reasonable argument there's nothing I can say that will change your mind.
Your analogy about time spent practicing match ups is flawed because you assume every person in a giving league must practice a set amount of time per match up, thus justifying any rewards the random player might receive for sinking more time into the game. Time spent practicing isn't linear to being good in a match up.
There's plenty of reasons why random isn't the dominant race, the biggest being that most people are told when they buy the game to try to find one race you like and stick with it to learn how the game works along with how differently all the races play and people preferring one races style over another. The reason there aren't pros playing random is because of how much time and work has to be put in to barely remain relevant as a 1 race player let alone someone trying to beat pro's in all 9 match ups.
You still never answered my question, whats so wrong with both races being hidden if one player chooses random?
Only PvZ is a real problem. The majority of match ups aren't. Playing random gives you an advantage and if you play Zerg vs Protoss as Random you'll play in a different way just BTW NOBODY is banning random players soo it's a valid way to play.
On August 24 2012 12:18 Blargh wrote: Hmm, sort of silly. I do agree that it messes up the "standard" play of the game, but it's a strategy game, if you cannot learn strategies to outplay your opponent despite any disadvantage, then you shouldn't take it competitively. If you don't play competitively, you shouldn't care whether or not you are Grandmaster league or if you're bronze/win or lose. I play the game for the fun of doing fun strategies and dicking around. I'm masterleague, but I don't give two shits whether I lose the game either. I've played a lot of matches.
Even though it gives the random player an advantage, it also makes the game more interesting. I don't completely disagree with you, just only to an extent. I would probably reveal my race if I played random because I like challenges and strategy, not winning.
But if your playing competitively you shouldn't really have to worry about playing at a disadvantage from the beginning of the game for no real reason.
I don't think anyone here is seriously arguing that random shouldn't be in the game or that it isn't fun to play random for the sake of getting to play all the races but it just doesn't seem fair to force someone else into a disadvantage because of a choice someone else made that you have no say in. If anything if one player wants to play random and have his race hidden, both players race should be hidden to each other. That way random players can have their "unique metagame" with out getting an automatic build order advantage vs someone who picks their race.
You realize the difference in the lack of information vs the lack of practice your opponent has turns the game in a monumental advantage for yourself? Stop with the disadvantage bullshit already. If someone chooses to cheese you and force a metagame you don't want to play you also don't have control over that either. It's such a dumb basis to argue upon against random.
If your laddering against a random player it's safe to assume that their near your skill level at least in most of the match ups in the game so why should their be any artificial advantage/disadvantage for either player, besides random players thinking it's "fun" to play people who aren't prepared for what race their playing? And what does is mean to "force a metagame you don't want to play" by cheesing? I don't think you know what metagame means. Example, 3 cc hellion banshee openers in tvz is very standard in the current metagame. Forcing a protoss player to not get to choose to ffe vs zerg because he doesn't know he's playing a zerg player, putting him at a disadvantage a random player who gets zerg and has the choice of doing their vs protoss build, isn't a metagame. It's creating a disadvantage through something that has nothing to do with either players skill.
If the "disadvantage" of playing random, i.e. inconsistency, is accounted for in the MM system by consistently losing to 100% equally skilled players, then the "advantage" of playing random, the information advantage, should show up in win rates and be accounted for by MM as well. Basically, if you have a 50% chance to win, your opponent is VERY likely to be worse at the match-up than you are. The disadvantage is imaginary. You're delusional. The only way is for your opponent to have an advantage is to be strictly better than you, which can only happen in lower leagues, as random is not consistent enough to advance without immense skill differentials in their opponents.
Who the fuck cares why someone picks random for fun? It's not your right to judge. And don't insult my intelligence, thanks. If someone 6 pools you your opening is dictated by them. You have no choice. So I guess spawning pools should require an overlord because your fun was ruined.
You need to realize random is a fourth race and must be treated as such. You aren't opening sub-optimally vs a zerg, you're opening optimally vs a random for the highest chance of success. It's not PvZ, it's a PvfuckingR.
First I'm not "judging" anyone for playing random and have fun. if anything, I'm judging people who think it's fair for you're opponent to not know your race and try to justify it by pretending that the random player choosing not to share their race is the innocent one, as if his opponent forced him to learn every match up in game or that as a random player you're entitled to anything.
Secondly, why should one player have to open optimally vs the chance of all three races while another player gets pick a match up specific build? Whats wrong with races being hidden for both players if one has chosen random? Whose "fun" and "metagame" does it ruin when both players are on an even playing field?
It IS fair for your opponent to not know your race when you play random. I just explained this to you. Get over it and deal with it. What the fuck is this notion of forcing you to play against random or forcing your opponent to learn all the match-ups. They picked random because they wanted to. Maybe they should complain that you picked a single race and have an automatic advantage of being way better at any match-up they could possibly get regardless of a small 2 minute advantage.
Holy shit I'll just restate it. XvR is a fourth match-up and you're opening against the fourth race, not the three races it can random. It's not supposed to be optimal vs the race they random. Im pretty sure this is mentioned in the wiki. Whats wrong with races being hidden is that the random race has existed for longer than a decade and has been perfectly fine. Millions of players, all except you have coped with it. Heres a better question: Why do you keep saying they aren't on an even playing field as if the random has the advantage? Go check GM statistics and tell me how many equally skilled random GM players win with this advantage. I'll wait for you to give me the numbers.
15 hatch against these kind of protosses. If he proceedes to 4 gate, scout, crush the push and crush him with twice his workers. If he goes 1gate FE or nexus first, get a third, drone to 60, crush his push and win.
I like players who are playing random against me - basically free win. I always 4 gate against any random player (they are 6pooling, 4gating and 3raxing all the time anyway, so I don't even feel bad).
Anybody who thinks random race shouldn't be hidden should take it up with Blizzard. It's ridiculous to blame the players, they are clearly playing the game EXACTLY as it was intentionally designed. It's not like they are exploiting some sort of glitch to abuse the game.
On August 23 2012 07:13 Capped wrote: Lol, this thread is pointless, heres why
If you play random and it disrupts the metagame into something different, it doesnt matter because THAT is then the metagame they need to know, because they play random. Catch my drift? ...
Exactly. I used to do a strategy in low level as a random for Tv T/P. I noticed that people would often wall off in case of zerg 6 pool. So when i got Terran, I would check for a wall-off. If they walled, I would rush some marines, build a proxy barracks, float it for high ground vision, and maybe build a low ground bunker with the barracks for vision (or get out some early C-shell mauraders vs P). Then I could hammer their wall off from the low ground. Since they couldn't use sentries to forcefield the ramp (I was on the low ground), it was almost impossible for P to save their wall buildings. T would float their barracks back, but usually lose the depots.
Of course that's not the best way to improve and get out of the lower levels. And I have no idea if that strat would work at a higher level. But the point is that, liked Capped said, I didn't learn the "wrong" metagame. I learned the right metagame... for playing random (at least at that level).
All I've seen in this thread and the previous thread are Plat and Diamond level complainers that seem to be angry that they actually have to think on their feet and adapt when playing vs Random rather than use a cookie cutter build that they've stolen from some pro for every matchup. The line is trollish and cliche but I think it's relevant here... Learn to fucking play and stop bitching, seriously.
If I wanted to learn the meta for the standard matchups, I would pick a standard race, however my race is Random. I don't need to know the current metagame for all the standards because I don't play those races.
I don't play random but if I would I would not tell my race. I consider this as a build order advantage that you have when you are random and it is part of the game...
What about tournaments? do they allow random? And if they do, should the player announces his race at the beginning of the game?
On August 25 2012 00:33 Dosey wrote: All I've seen in this thread and the previous thread are Plat and Diamond level complainers that seem to be angry that they actually have to think on their feet and adapt when playing vs Random rather than use a cookie cutter build that they've stolen from some pro for every matchup. The line is trollish and cliche but I think it's relevant here... Learn to fucking play and stop bitching, seriously.
If I wanted to learn the meta for the standard matchups, I would pick a standard race, however my race is Random. I don't need to know the current metagame for all the standards because I don't play those races.
It's pathetic and hilarious at the same time. I honestly think a lot of these people are somehow threatened by the thought of someone being better than them at not only their main race, but all 3 races at once. Inferiority complex much?
On August 25 2012 01:58 RGB wrote: I don't play random but if I would I would not tell my race. I consider this as a build order advantage that you have when you are random and it is part of the game...
What about tournaments? do they allow random? And if they do, should the player announces his race at the beginning of the game?
Random is allowed, it's just highly uncommon because it takes an immense amount of skill and dedication to stay relevant at 3 races, as opposed to just 1. No, the players do not announce their race. There was 2-3 random players in GSL and none of them have stayed as Random because it is much more challenging.
I agree with this. Toss and Zerg are greatly affected by a random player. while 60% of them say the race they play, 60% of THOSE are telling the truth, the other 40% of those who respond lie and the 40% in general say something witty like "asian" or "random"
Toss and zerg are dependent on openers prior to your second pylon/ovie in EVERY matchup. 15 hatch/pool/gas for zvz, 15 hatch 16 pool zvt, 15 pool 15 hatch zvp. For toss it's 12 gate pvp, 13 gate pvt, or a forge on lowground at nat pvz. best thing a toss can do vs a random player is start wall off at ramp at 12 gate but if it's zvp, it's easy to counter as Z.
Idk, I think random should be taken out OR, chooses race FOR you on the load screen so the opponent can play standard.
Is this like the cool thing of the month to do? Complain about random even though it can't conceivably have much effect on your play.
If you're below masters and want to improve then playing against random shouldn't be an issue since , even though you're slightly handicapped, you are just looking to improve, not to win. If you're in masters, maybe one out of 30 games you play is against a random opponent (my experience anyway).
Where are those golden days when telling your race was something very nice? Nowadays a lot of people seem to have the opinion that you MUST tell your race, otherwise you're bad mannered...
On August 25 2012 02:17 MyFirstProbe wrote: Where are those golden days when telling your race was something very nice? Nowadays a lot of people seem to have the opinion that you MUST tell your race, otherwise you're bad mannered...
I always reply with "Random" because that IS my race.
On August 25 2012 02:17 MyFirstProbe wrote: Where are those golden days when telling your race was something very nice? Nowadays a lot of people seem to have the opinion that you MUST tell your race, otherwise you're bad mannered...
I always reply with "Random" because that IS my race.
Random isn't a race. It is a choice that gives you the option of randomly being chosen one of the three races in the game.
Stop trying to think you are clever. You are not clever.
Im not telling people not to play random, I dont mind playing vs randoms, and the suggestion by some that random be taken out is retarded; BUT, the OP has a point.
It says something about the maturity of this community that I have to so heavily preface any comments about random.
Sometimes I think people enjoying QQing on forums more than they actually like playing the game.
On August 25 2012 02:49 Cosmos wrote: Random = more and quicker portraits. (1 win as random gives u 1 win with random + 1 win with the race you played in term of portraits/graphs)
That's a good enough reason to me to play random. And if you want to play normal games while being random just tell your race...
On August 25 2012 02:49 Cosmos wrote: Random = more and quicker portraits. (1 win as random gives u 1 win with random + 1 win with the race you played in term of portraits/graphs)
That's a good enough reason to me to play random. And if you want to play normal games while being random just tell your race...
OP's logic is flawed. If player x plays random and his opponents never play standard because of it, why would he even want to learn standards that according to this premise he will never need?
He might need standards once he decides to switch, i.e. settle on one race. And then he can still learn standards for that race's matchups. Why learn them any sooner than that? Standards change over time anyway.
People need to stop acting like playing standard or according to the current "meta game" is an end in itself. People are so obsessed with what they call "meta game" that they flame you on ladder for not doing exactly what they expect. If everyone always did what their opponent expects, this game would become just as lame as those people already are. Playing standard is hurting e-sports *trollface*.
On August 25 2012 02:49 Cosmos wrote: Random = more and quicker portraits. (1 win as random gives u 1 win with random + 1 win with the race you played in term of portraits/graphs)
That's a good enough reason to me to play random. And if you want to play normal games while being random just tell your race...
uhm...... it does? Since when?
Since forever.
Haha. By virtue of working on 2 races simultaneously, Random and X, where X is the race you get after the load screen. I think he was making one of those "thank you captain Obvious" type of remarks.
I politely ask what race he is, and if he doesn't tell me I just leave the game since it's a waste of time.
The best way to get better, stated by many progamers, is to pick a solid and safe build and do it in every matchup over and over to refine your mechanics.
So if I gas first in TvT, cc first in TvZ, and 1 rax expand in TvP playing a random player FORCES me to choose a sub optimal build or to hurt my build with a VERY early scout that may not see anything in time. 1 rax expo is NOT safe in TvT, but gas openings are pure shit vs Z and not very good vs P. So instead of wasting my time I just leave.
i don't think random players play random to be competitive, whenever i get bored of playing terran i random some games just for fun but have no intention on getting good at toss/zerg.
On August 25 2012 03:27 FrogOfWar wrote: OP's logic is flawed. If player x plays random and his opponents never play standard because of it, why would he even want to learn standards that according to this premise he will never need?
He might need standards once he decides to switch, i.e. settle on one race. And then he can still learn standards for that race's matchups. Why learn them any sooner than that? Standards change over time anyway.
People need to stop acting like playing standard or according to the current "meta game" is an end in itself. People are so obsessed with what they call "meta game" that they flame you on ladder for not doing exactly what they expect. If everyone always did what their opponent expects, this game would become just as lame as those people already are. Playing standard is hurting e-sports *trollface*.
I wish i could simply +1 but i completely agree, i really dont understand why random is all of a sudden so bad, so many threads on why random is so unfair etc.
for the longest time random players didnt get any shit for playing an OP race, but i guess everyone gets their turn.
grow up, just play, and guess what ?? your chances of winning is still right around 50% just like any other matchup..
On August 25 2012 03:27 FrogOfWar wrote: OP's logic is flawed. If player x plays random and his opponents never play standard because of it, why would he even want to learn standards that according to this premise he will never need?
He might need standards once he decides to switch, i.e. settle on one race. And then he can still learn standards for that race's matchups. Why learn them any sooner than that? Standards change over time anyway.
People need to stop acting like playing standard or according to the current "meta game" is an end in itself. People are so obsessed with what they call "meta game" that they flame you on ladder for not doing exactly what they expect. If everyone always did what their opponent expects, this game would become just as lame as those people already are. Playing standard is hurting e-sports *trollface*.
If you play Random, it will breed bad habits for standard play. Most of the builds you face will be suboptimal, so you will not have to play as cleanly as if you were playing a single race. So if your opponent decides to gamble and use an opener designed to face off against a certain race, if he gets lucky you just won't be prepared for it. He'll steamroll you. On the other hand, if he gets unlucky and chooses the wrong build he'll probably lose. By choosing random, you've turned the game into a gamble. Whether you win or lose is not based on skill, it's based on luck. Having a low-skill game is going to seriously stymie your improvement.
Random is just a forth race. If you're a random player you won't always experience the same early game that is consistent with the current meta-game. I'd personally eliminate random as a choice, but your logic is still flawed.
On August 25 2012 03:27 FrogOfWar wrote: OP's logic is flawed. If player x plays random and his opponents never play standard because of it, why would he even want to learn standards that according to this premise he will never need?
He might need standards once he decides to switch, i.e. settle on one race. And then he can still learn standards for that race's matchups. Why learn them any sooner than that? Standards change over time anyway.
People need to stop acting like playing standard or according to the current "meta game" is an end in itself. People are so obsessed with what they call "meta game" that they flame you on ladder for not doing exactly what they expect. If everyone always did what their opponent expects, this game would become just as lame as those people already are. Playing standard is hurting e-sports *trollface*.
If you play Random, it will breed bad habits for standard play. Most of the builds you face will be suboptimal, so you will not have to play as cleanly as if you were playing a single race. So if your opponent decides to gamble and use an opener designed to face off against a certain race, if he gets lucky you just won't be prepared for it. He'll steamroll you. On the other hand, if he gets unlucky and chooses the wrong build he'll probably lose. By choosing random, you've turned the game into a gamble. Whether you win or lose is not based on skill, it's based on luck. Having a low-skill game is going to seriously stymie your improvement.
If you're not competing against the best people in the world the builds you play against will always be sub-optimal. Hell, even then the builds are probably "sub-optimal".
i play random every game and 1 sec after start i tell my opponent what race i am until now i had NEVER that he doesnt trust me, p makes fe's and so on. it seems all rnd are really truthfull so they not have to be scared they lie
i understand what you mean but normaly EVERYONE trusts me ^^
some players even get mad i tell them race because they want learn play vs rnd ^^
On August 25 2012 02:17 MyFirstProbe wrote: Where are those golden days when telling your race was something very nice? Nowadays a lot of people seem to have the opinion that you MUST tell your race, otherwise you're bad mannered...
I always reply with "Random" because that IS my race.
Random isn't a race. It is a choice that gives you the option of randomly being chosen one of the three races in the game.
Stop trying to think you are clever. You are not clever.
Random is clearly a race, perfectly represented by the number of posters in this thread and the previous complaining about how the random matchup is so much different.
I find this attitude against random very infuriating. People who are too stupid, too biased, and too quick to whine, making ignorant, poorly thought out arguments, against a non-existent problem for the sake of preserving their delusional self image and securing their fictional narrative on why life is not fair for them.
Even accepting (the terrible) arguments of random being an advantage or impeding your learning, who the fuck are you to lecture others on their choices on a public Battle.net ladder? Quit expecting others to conform under your will.
This whiny, pathetic, entitled attitude is getting really old on here. Get over yourselves.
On August 25 2012 04:02 Befree wrote: I find this attitude against random very infuriating. People who are too stupid, too biased, and too quick to whine, making ignorant, poorly thought out arguments, against a non-existent problem for the sake of preserving their delusional self image and securing their fictional narrative on why life is not fair for them.
Even accepting (the terrible) arguments of random being an advantage or impeding your learning, who the fuck are you to lecture others on their choices on a public Battle.net ladder? Quit expecting others to conform under your will.
This whiny, pathetic, entitled attitude is getting really old on here. Get over yourselves.
Cool your jets Dr. Hostile. People are going to have differing opinions.
Random is part of the game too, stop being butthurt about you having to play a safer game , if its really that bad then just cheese or play super greedy against them. IF your worried about it not being "good" practice then just leave the game . Not to mention the higher up you go on ladder the less random players there are.
Learning defections is a reason for you to tell me why i should not play random? I'm sorry, i call this rubbish. Let me choose my own learning curve. The cons you mention are very dependent of learning method. Also, if your post is directed at people below platinum, it does hardly matter against which race one plays, so it makes even less sense.
On August 25 2012 04:02 Befree wrote: I find this attitude against random very infuriating. People who are too stupid, too biased, and too quick to whine, making ignorant, poorly thought out arguments, against a non-existent problem for the sake of preserving their delusional self image and securing their fictional narrative on why life is not fair for them.
Even accepting (the terrible) arguments of random being an advantage or impeding your learning, who the fuck are you to lecture others on their choices on a public Battle.net ladder? Quit expecting others to conform under your will.
This whiny, pathetic, entitled attitude is getting really old on here. Get over yourselves.
Cool your jets Dr. Hostile. People are going to have differing opinions.
the man speaks the truth though, a lot of the complaints hold no value and illogical and its mostly idiotic whines. it is annoying. opinions are cool but the moment they're wrapped around with baseless claims such as ffe is only viable pvz opener or all randomers are cheesers, etc., it is no longer an opinion, only childish whines.
On August 25 2012 04:02 Befree wrote: I find this attitude against random very infuriating. People who are too stupid, too biased, and too quick to whine, making ignorant, poorly thought out arguments, against a non-existent problem for the sake of preserving their delusional self image and securing their fictional narrative on why life is not fair for them.
Even accepting (the terrible) arguments of random being an advantage or impeding your learning, who the fuck are you to lecture others on their choices on a public Battle.net ladder? Quit expecting others to conform under your will.
This whiny, pathetic, entitled attitude is getting really old on here. Get over yourselves.
Cool your jets Dr. Hostile. People are going to have differing opinions.
He's right... It's absurd hearing mid-master scrubs complain that their sanctified ladder practice is somehow compromised by the existance of Random players. It's actually mind boggling.
On August 25 2012 04:02 Befree wrote: I find this attitude against random very infuriating. People who are too stupid, too biased, and too quick to whine, making ignorant, poorly thought out arguments, against a non-existent problem for the sake of preserving their delusional self image and securing their fictional narrative on why life is not fair for them.
Even accepting (the terrible) arguments of random being an advantage or impeding your learning, who the fuck are you to lecture others on their choices on a public Battle.net ladder? Quit expecting others to conform under your will.
This whiny, pathetic, entitled attitude is getting really old on here. Get over yourselves.
Cool your jets Dr. Hostile. People are going to have differing opinions.
He's right... It's absurd hearing mid-master scrubs complain that their sanctified ladder practice is somehow compromised by the existance of Random players. It's actually mind boggling.
Finally someone said it. I am so sick of those mid-master and above people. How they think they are the only ones who have an oppinion on the subject.
What an idiotic view point.
I mean take any other sport like baseball. You have incredibly smart analysts who study the game, but yet have never played themselves. And yet, you don't hear players go around saying, those idiots have no idea what they are talking about because they aren't grandmaster.
It is simple minded to think that just because someone is low level, they can't analyze the game more so than someone who is high masters.
On August 25 2012 04:02 Befree wrote: I find this attitude against random very infuriating. People who are too stupid, too biased, and too quick to whine, making ignorant, poorly thought out arguments, against a non-existent problem for the sake of preserving their delusional self image and securing their fictional narrative on why life is not fair for them.
Even accepting (the terrible) arguments of random being an advantage or impeding your learning, who the fuck are you to lecture others on their choices on a public Battle.net ladder? Quit expecting others to conform under your will.
This whiny, pathetic, entitled attitude is getting really old on here. Get over yourselves.
Cool your jets Dr. Hostile. People are going to have differing opinions.
He's right... It's absurd hearing mid-master scrubs complain that their sanctified ladder practice is somehow compromised by the existance of Random players. It's actually mind boggling.
Finally someone said it. I am so sick of those mid-master and above people. How they think they are the only ones who have an oppinion on the subject.
What an idiotic view point.
I mean take any other sport like baseball. You have incredibly smart analysts who study the game, but yet have never played themselves. And yet, you don't hear players go around saying, those idiots have no idea what they are talking about because they aren't grandmaster.
It is simple minded to think that just because someone is low level, they can't analyze the game more so than someone who is high masters.
Thanks for bring that up.
This is so blatantly wrong lol. Guess you don't know who Hope Solo is (recent athlete who criticized analyst) As an avid follower of American sports, I can tell you that players criticize analysts all the time.
Even in our SC2 scene, you get tweets from Morrow saying "Wolf is in gold league and saying Code S players are playing badly" or Cloud saying that no casters understand the game.
On August 25 2012 04:02 Befree wrote: I find this attitude against random very infuriating. People who are too stupid, too biased, and too quick to whine, making ignorant, poorly thought out arguments, against a non-existent problem for the sake of preserving their delusional self image and securing their fictional narrative on why life is not fair for them.
Even accepting (the terrible) arguments of random being an advantage or impeding your learning, who the fuck are you to lecture others on their choices on a public Battle.net ladder? Quit expecting others to conform under your will.
This whiny, pathetic, entitled attitude is getting really old on here. Get over yourselves.
Cool your jets Dr. Hostile. People are going to have differing opinions.
He's right... It's absurd hearing mid-master scrubs complain that their sanctified ladder practice is somehow compromised by the existance of Random players. It's actually mind boggling.
Finally someone said it. I am so sick of those mid-master and above people. How they think they are the only ones who have an oppinion on the subject.
What an idiotic view point.
I mean take any other sport like baseball. You have incredibly smart analysts who study the game, but yet have never played themselves. And yet, you don't hear players go around saying, those idiots have no idea what they are talking about because they aren't grandmaster.
It is simple minded to think that just because someone is low level, they can't analyze the game more so than someone who is high masters.
Thanks for bring that up.
This is so blatantly wrong lol. Guess you don't know who Hope Solo is (recent athlete who criticized analyst) As an avid follower of American sports, I can tell you that players criticize analysts all the time.
Even in our SC2 scene, you get tweets from Morrow saying "Wolf is in gold league and saying Code S players are playing badly" or Cloud saying that no casters understand the game.
Really? I remember Artosis saying that Wolf was masters on KR and he actually would practice with him.
On August 25 2012 04:02 Befree wrote: I find this attitude against random very infuriating. People who are too stupid, too biased, and too quick to whine, making ignorant, poorly thought out arguments, against a non-existent problem for the sake of preserving their delusional self image and securing their fictional narrative on why life is not fair for them.
Even accepting (the terrible) arguments of random being an advantage or impeding your learning, who the fuck are you to lecture others on their choices on a public Battle.net ladder? Quit expecting others to conform under your will.
This whiny, pathetic, entitled attitude is getting really old on here. Get over yourselves.
Cool your jets Dr. Hostile. People are going to have differing opinions.
He's right... It's absurd hearing mid-master scrubs complain that their sanctified ladder practice is somehow compromised by the existance of Random players. It's actually mind boggling.
Finally someone said it. I am so sick of those mid-master and above people. How they think they are the only ones who have an oppinion on the subject.
What an idiotic view point.
I mean take any other sport like baseball. You have incredibly smart analysts who study the game, but yet have never played themselves. And yet, you don't hear players go around saying, those idiots have no idea what they are talking about because they aren't grandmaster.
It is simple minded to think that just because someone is low level, they can't analyze the game more so than someone who is high masters.
Thanks for bring that up.
This is so blatantly wrong lol. Guess you don't know who Hope Solo is (recent athlete who criticized analyst) As an avid follower of American sports, I can tell you that players criticize analysts all the time.
Even in our SC2 scene, you get tweets from Morrow saying "Wolf is in gold league and saying Code S players are playing badly" or Cloud saying that no casters understand the game.
Really? I remember Artosis saying that Wolf was masters on KR and he actually would practice with him.
He definitely doesn't understand the game at a KR masters level...
On August 25 2012 04:02 Befree wrote: I find this attitude against random very infuriating. People who are too stupid, too biased, and too quick to whine, making ignorant, poorly thought out arguments, against a non-existent problem for the sake of preserving their delusional self image and securing their fictional narrative on why life is not fair for them.
Even accepting (the terrible) arguments of random being an advantage or impeding your learning, who the fuck are you to lecture others on their choices on a public Battle.net ladder? Quit expecting others to conform under your will.
This whiny, pathetic, entitled attitude is getting really old on here. Get over yourselves.
Cool your jets Dr. Hostile. People are going to have differing opinions.
He's right... It's absurd hearing mid-master scrubs complain that their sanctified ladder practice is somehow compromised by the existance of Random players. It's actually mind boggling.
Finally someone said it. I am so sick of those mid-master and above people. How they think they are the only ones who have an oppinion on the subject.
What an idiotic view point.
I mean take any other sport like baseball. You have incredibly smart analysts who study the game, but yet have never played themselves. And yet, you don't hear players go around saying, those idiots have no idea what they are talking about because they aren't grandmaster.
It is simple minded to think that just because someone is low level, they can't analyze the game more so than someone who is high masters.
Thanks for bring that up.
This is so blatantly wrong lol. Guess you don't know who Hope Solo is (recent athlete who criticized analyst) As an avid follower of American sports, I can tell you that players criticize analysts all the time.
Even in our SC2 scene, you get tweets from Morrow saying "Wolf is in gold league and saying Code S players are playing badly" or Cloud saying that no casters understand the game.
Athlete's with inflated egos criticize others? How very surprising. The best casters don't have to be the best players and the best players don't necessarily (rarely infact) make the best casters. That's all beside the point and irellevant to this thread though.
It's just funny hearing all these non-pros whine that NA ladder isn't good practice BECAUSE OF RANDOMS (LOL). As if there aren't TONS of other more valid reasons why you wouldnt use NA or EU ladder as your main practice.
On August 25 2012 05:56 SupLilSon wrote: The best casters don't have to be the best players and the best players don't necessarily (rarely infact) make the best casters.
That's because casting is a lot of other skills besides game knowledge. However, the casters actually worth listening to for information are the ones that are also good players with pretty much no exceptions.
Anyway, I have an account for laddering as random. It sucks that I deal with a ton of rushes because nobody wants to deal with the inevitable random rushing that most randoms do. Just display the damn race in the loading screen, all possible issues solved.
On August 25 2012 04:02 Befree wrote: I find this attitude against random very infuriating. People who are too stupid, too biased, and too quick to whine, making ignorant, poorly thought out arguments, against a non-existent problem for the sake of preserving their delusional self image and securing their fictional narrative on why life is not fair for them.
Even accepting (the terrible) arguments of random being an advantage or impeding your learning, who the fuck are you to lecture others on their choices on a public Battle.net ladder? Quit expecting others to conform under your will.
This whiny, pathetic, entitled attitude is getting really old on here. Get over yourselves.
Cool your jets Dr. Hostile. People are going to have differing opinions.
He's right... It's absurd hearing mid-master scrubs complain that their sanctified ladder practice is somehow compromised by the existance of Random players. It's actually mind boggling.
Finally someone said it. I am so sick of those mid-master and above people. How they think they are the only ones who have an oppinion on the subject.
What an idiotic view point.
I mean take any other sport like baseball. You have incredibly smart analysts who study the game, but yet have never played themselves. And yet, you don't hear players go around saying, those idiots have no idea what they are talking about because they aren't grandmaster.
It is simple minded to think that just because someone is low level, they can't analyze the game more so than someone who is high masters.
Thanks for bring that up.
This is so blatantly wrong lol. Guess you don't know who Hope Solo is (recent athlete who criticized analyst) As an avid follower of American sports, I can tell you that players criticize analysts all the time.
Even in our SC2 scene, you get tweets from Morrow saying "Wolf is in gold league and saying Code S players are playing badly" or Cloud saying that no casters understand the game.
Athlete's with inflated egos criticize others? How very surprising. The best casters don't have to be the best players and the best players don't necessarily (rarely infact) make the best casters. That's all beside the point and irellevant to this thread though.
It's just funny hearing all these non-pros whine that NA ladder isn't good practice BECAUSE OF RANDOMS (LOL). As if there aren't TONS of other more valid reasons why you wouldnt use NA or EU ladder as your main practice.
On August 25 2012 04:02 Befree wrote: I find this attitude against random very infuriating. People who are too stupid, too biased, and too quick to whine, making ignorant, poorly thought out arguments, against a non-existent problem for the sake of preserving their delusional self image and securing their fictional narrative on why life is not fair for them.
Even accepting (the terrible) arguments of random being an advantage or impeding your learning, who the fuck are you to lecture others on their choices on a public Battle.net ladder? Quit expecting others to conform under your will.
This whiny, pathetic, entitled attitude is getting really old on here. Get over yourselves.
Cool your jets Dr. Hostile. People are going to have differing opinions.
He's right... It's absurd hearing mid-master scrubs complain that their sanctified ladder practice is somehow compromised by the existance of Random players. It's actually mind boggling.
Finally someone said it. I am so sick of those mid-master and above people. How they think they are the only ones who have an oppinion on the subject.
What an idiotic view point.
I mean take any other sport like baseball. You have incredibly smart analysts who study the game, but yet have never played themselves. And yet, you don't hear players go around saying, those idiots have no idea what they are talking about because they aren't grandmaster.
It is simple minded to think that just because someone is low level, they can't analyze the game more so than someone who is high masters.
Thanks for bring that up.
This is so blatantly wrong lol. Guess you don't know who Hope Solo is (recent athlete who criticized analyst) As an avid follower of American sports, I can tell you that players criticize analysts all the time.
Even in our SC2 scene, you get tweets from Morrow saying "Wolf is in gold league and saying Code S players are playing badly" or Cloud saying that no casters understand the game.
Athlete's with inflated egos criticize others? How very surprising. The best casters don't have to be the best players and the best players don't necessarily (rarely infact) make the best casters. That's all beside the point and irellevant to this thread though.
It's just funny hearing all these non-pros whine that NA ladder isn't good practice BECAUSE OF RANDOMS (LOL). As if there aren't TONS of other more valid reasons why you wouldnt use NA or EU ladder as your main practice.
KR has the most randoms FYI
That's really ironic, funny and interesting at the same time. Thanks ^^
On August 25 2012 04:02 Befree wrote: I find this attitude against random very infuriating. People who are too stupid, too biased, and too quick to whine, making ignorant, poorly thought out arguments, against a non-existent problem for the sake of preserving their delusional self image and securing their fictional narrative on why life is not fair for them.
Even accepting (the terrible) arguments of random being an advantage or impeding your learning, who the fuck are you to lecture others on their choices on a public Battle.net ladder? Quit expecting others to conform under your will.
This whiny, pathetic, entitled attitude is getting really old on here. Get over yourselves.
Cool your jets Dr. Hostile. People are going to have differing opinions.
He's right... It's absurd hearing mid-master scrubs complain that their sanctified ladder practice is somehow compromised by the existance of Random players. It's actually mind boggling.
Finally someone said it. I am so sick of those mid-master and above people. How they think they are the only ones who have an oppinion on the subject.
What an idiotic view point.
I mean take any other sport like baseball. You have incredibly smart analysts who study the game, but yet have never played themselves. And yet, you don't hear players go around saying, those idiots have no idea what they are talking about because they aren't grandmaster.
It is simple minded to think that just because someone is low level, they can't analyze the game more so than someone who is high masters.
Thanks for bring that up.
This is so blatantly wrong lol. Guess you don't know who Hope Solo is (recent athlete who criticized analyst) As an avid follower of American sports, I can tell you that players criticize analysts all the time.
Even in our SC2 scene, you get tweets from Morrow saying "Wolf is in gold league and saying Code S players are playing badly" or Cloud saying that no casters understand the game.
Athlete's with inflated egos criticize others? How very surprising. The best casters don't have to be the best players and the best players don't necessarily (rarely infact) make the best casters. That's all beside the point and irellevant to this thread though.
It's just funny hearing all these non-pros whine that NA ladder isn't good practice BECAUSE OF RANDOMS (LOL). As if there aren't TONS of other more valid reasons why you wouldnt use NA or EU ladder as your main practice.
KR has the most randoms FYI
That's really ironic, funny and interesting at the same time. Thanks ^^
it goes like toss -> random -> terran -> whites -> zerg
On August 25 2012 04:02 Befree wrote: I find this attitude against random very infuriating. People who are too stupid, too biased, and too quick to whine, making ignorant, poorly thought out arguments, against a non-existent problem for the sake of preserving their delusional self image and securing their fictional narrative on why life is not fair for them.
Even accepting (the terrible) arguments of random being an advantage or impeding your learning, who the fuck are you to lecture others on their choices on a public Battle.net ladder? Quit expecting others to conform under your will.
This whiny, pathetic, entitled attitude is getting really old on here. Get over yourselves.
Cool your jets Dr. Hostile. People are going to have differing opinions.
He's right... It's absurd hearing mid-master scrubs complain that their sanctified ladder practice is somehow compromised by the existance of Random players. It's actually mind boggling.
Finally someone said it. I am so sick of those mid-master and above people. How they think they are the only ones who have an oppinion on the subject.
What an idiotic view point.
I mean take any other sport like baseball. You have incredibly smart analysts who study the game, but yet have never played themselves. And yet, you don't hear players go around saying, those idiots have no idea what they are talking about because they aren't grandmaster.
It is simple minded to think that just because someone is low level, they can't analyze the game more so than someone who is high masters.
Thanks for bring that up.
This is so blatantly wrong lol. Guess you don't know who Hope Solo is (recent athlete who criticized analyst) As an avid follower of American sports, I can tell you that players criticize analysts all the time.
Even in our SC2 scene, you get tweets from Morrow saying "Wolf is in gold league and saying Code S players are playing badly" or Cloud saying that no casters understand the game.
Athlete's with inflated egos criticize others? How very surprising. The best casters don't have to be the best players and the best players don't necessarily (rarely infact) make the best casters. That's all beside the point and irellevant to this thread though.
It's just funny hearing all these non-pros whine that NA ladder isn't good practice BECAUSE OF RANDOMS (LOL). As if there aren't TONS of other more valid reasons why you wouldnt use NA or EU ladder as your main practice.
KR has the most randoms FYI
That's really ironic, funny and interesting at the same time. Thanks ^^
it does make sense. most korean sc2 players probably have played bw for long time and many long time bw players probably played random or know how to use all three races competently. i played random since beginning because lack of knowledge was backed up by 10 years of bw mechanics, i understand for new sc2 people wanting to focus their improvement of mechanics and knowledge on one race but those who played bw for long time, its only a matter of time getting used to other races and would rather be competent with all three rather than being good at one and completely noob at others,
to those that say "roll a dice before you play instead"...i ask, why....? if there was no random button, sure but there is a random button. race dont matter on ladder
On August 25 2012 04:02 Befree wrote: I find this attitude against random very infuriating. People who are too stupid, too biased, and too quick to whine, making ignorant, poorly thought out arguments, against a non-existent problem for the sake of preserving their delusional self image and securing their fictional narrative on why life is not fair for them.
Even accepting (the terrible) arguments of random being an advantage or impeding your learning, who the fuck are you to lecture others on their choices on a public Battle.net ladder? Quit expecting others to conform under your will.
This whiny, pathetic, entitled attitude is getting really old on here. Get over yourselves.
Cool your jets Dr. Hostile. People are going to have differing opinions.
He's right... It's absurd hearing mid-master scrubs complain that their sanctified ladder practice is somehow compromised by the existance of Random players. It's actually mind boggling.
I absolutely agree as well. But the fact remains that not everyone else will. No need to get all nasty about it. People are going to always disagree.
On August 25 2012 04:02 Befree wrote: I find this attitude against random very infuriating. People who are too stupid, too biased, and too quick to whine, making ignorant, poorly thought out arguments, against a non-existent problem for the sake of preserving their delusional self image and securing their fictional narrative on why life is not fair for them.
Even accepting (the terrible) arguments of random being an advantage or impeding your learning, who the fuck are you to lecture others on their choices on a public Battle.net ladder? Quit expecting others to conform under your will.
This whiny, pathetic, entitled attitude is getting really old on here. Get over yourselves.
Speaking of poorly thought out arguments, what, other than angry adjectives and ad hominem attacks, are yours?
Choosing random produces sub-optimal Starcraft games and involves increased BO luck. How is that beneficial to the game? The argument that 'random players have to learn all races, so they need an advantage' doesn't make any sense. They can just choose not to play random. Giving them an artificial advantage like this (in my view, absolutely analagous to giving their units +10% HP or something equally silly) is not helping anyone. Why would random players want to be artificially higher ranked through increased build order luck, rather than beating their opponent purely through their own skill? If I played random, I would like to win a TvZ purely on the strength of my ability to play the matchup rather than winning from an early lead caused by my opponents fear of going hatchery first. The argument that it increases variety is bullshit as well. Rather, it does the exact opposite. It forces the opponent down a weird catch-all build (like 15 pool 16 hatch for zerg) and thus decreases the level of early game variety in the game. Aside from this the hidden random specifically caters to the cheesy play from random players that I feel would be prominent enough without the hidden-race-buff. It might not be a huge deal, but for these reasons, I really don't enjoy encountering random on the ladder at all. That's my opinion, and unlike yours its complete with arguments and all.
On August 25 2012 04:02 Befree wrote: I find this attitude against random very infuriating. People who are too stupid, too biased, and too quick to whine, making ignorant, poorly thought out arguments, against a non-existent problem for the sake of preserving their delusional self image and securing their fictional narrative on why life is not fair for them.
Even accepting (the terrible) arguments of random being an advantage or impeding your learning, who the fuck are you to lecture others on their choices on a public Battle.net ladder? Quit expecting others to conform under your will.
This whiny, pathetic, entitled attitude is getting really old on here. Get over yourselves.
Speaking of poorly thought out arguments, what, other than angry adjectives and ad hominem attacks, are yours?
Choosing random produces sub-optimal Starcraft games and involves increased BO luck. How is that beneficial to the game? The argument that 'random players have to learn all races, so they need an advantage' doesn't make any sense. They can just choose not to play random. Giving them an artificial advantage like this (in my view, absolutely analagous to giving their units +10% HP or something equally silly) is not helping anyone. Why would random players want to be artificially higher ranked through increased build order luck, rather than beating their opponent purely through their own skill? If I played random, I would like to win a TvZ purely on the strength of my ability to play the matchup rather than winning from an early lead caused by my opponents fear of going hatchery first. The argument that it increases variety is bullshit as well. Rather, it does the exact opposite. It forces the opponent down a weird catch-all build (like 15 pool 16 hatch for zerg) and thus decreases the level of early game variety in the game. Aside from this the hidden random specifically caters to the cheesy play from random players that I feel would be prominent enough without the hidden-race-buff. It might not be a huge deal, but for these reasons, I really don't enjoy encountering random on the ladder at all. That's my opinion, and unlike yours its complete with arguments and all.
It's absurd and funny at the same time that you think the "BO advantage" of Random artificially inflates Random player's rank/skill. I honestly can't wrap my head around that. Like do you honestly believe that every Random player blindly plays the same builds specifically to counter the most common openers for each race? Like seriously. If you're actually half decent at SC2 you aren't even going to be playing many Random players in the first place. And chances are they aren't half bad players. Stop acting like Random turns diamonds into GMs or some shit.
Why is the BO advantage in quotation marks, and why would any such advantage not inflate your rank?
Edit: You ninjaedit'ed, so I will as well. It's not about any kind of blind play, it's about random players having the luxury of choosing a build that suits the race they're playing against, and non-random players not having that luxury. I'm not arguing that all random players are bad, nor am I arguing that random turns diamonds into GM. What I am arguing is that a hidden race is a very real advantage. I never said it was an insurmountable or even a large advantage, just that it is there. A random player getting protoss can for instance go nexus first against a zerg and not scout for a sixpool and be far safer than a non-random protoss doing the same thing. Nexus first gives more money than forge first, no probe scout gives more money than probe scout. Can you please explain to me how these things are not advantages?
On August 25 2012 06:53 Catatafish wrote: Why is the BO advantage in quotation marks, and why would any such advantage not inflate your rank?
Edit: You ninjaedit'ed, so I will as well. It's not about any kind of blind play, it's about random players having the luxury of choosing a build that suits the race they're playing against, and non-random players not having that luxury. I'm not arguing that all random players are bad, nor am I arguing that random turns diamonds into GM. What I am arguing is that a hidden race is a very real advantage. I never said it was an insurmountable or even a large advantage, just that it is there. A random player getting protoss can for instance go nexus first against a zerg and not scout for a sixpool and be far safer than a non-random protoss doing the same thing. Nexus first gives more money than forge first, no probe scout gives more money than probe scout. Can you please explain to me how these things are not advantages?
The advantage has been acknowledged hundreds of times. No shit having your race is hidden is an advantage. Now can you acknowledge that the disadvantages are even bigger and random as a whole is generally disadvantaged? Like, what are you trying to imply? That random is imbalanced? You have nothing to gain by arguing this obvious point unless you're trying to make an entirely new one.
On August 25 2012 06:53 Catatafish wrote: Why is the BO advantage in quotation marks, and why would any such advantage not inflate your rank?
Edit: You ninjaedit'ed, so I will as well. It's not about any kind of blind play, it's about random players having the luxury of choosing a build that suits the race they're playing against, and non-random players not having that luxury. I'm not arguing that all random players are bad, nor am I arguing that random turns diamonds into GM. What I am arguing is that a hidden race is a very real advantage. I never said it was an insurmountable or even a large advantage, just that it is there. A random player getting protoss can for instance go nexus first against a zerg and not scout for a sixpool and be far safer than a non-random protoss doing the same thing. Nexus first gives more money than forge first, no probe scout gives more money than probe scout. Can you please explain to me how these things are not advantages?
goign nexus first is a risk no matter which way you look at it. you're saying opponent will expect cheese and therefore not think of nexus first. then the problem lies with the player automatically assuming the random will cheese, it has nothing to do with randomer being random. dont you worry about 6pool vZ? why is it more serious all of a sudden against a random player? scout and open safe and react to what opponent is doing. i really dont understand why people think the first 3 minutes decides the result of the game. if indeed it does, it has nothing to do with random but rather the player's choice on their build and their choice being naively chosen by ASSUMING what random will do.
its ladder, the previous opponent is unrelated to next opponent. being 6pooled by zerg this game does not mean the next zerg will 6 pool. nor does it mean random will cheese all the time. stop assuming.
On August 25 2012 06:53 Catatafish wrote: Why is the BO advantage in quotation marks, and why would any such advantage not inflate your rank?
Edit: You ninjaedit'ed, so I will as well. It's not about any kind of blind play, it's about random players having the luxury of choosing a build that suits the race they're playing against, and non-random players not having that luxury. I'm not arguing that all random players are bad, nor am I arguing that random turns diamonds into GM. What I am arguing is that a hidden race is a very real advantage. I never said it was an insurmountable or even a large advantage, just that it is there. A random player getting protoss can for instance go nexus first against a zerg and not scout for a sixpool and be far safer than a non-random protoss doing the same thing. Nexus first gives more money than forge first, no probe scout gives more money than probe scout. Can you please explain to me how these things are not advantages?
Because you are assuming Random players play to that advantage. There are many Random players that simply play standard. People like you assume every Random is cheesing, so in the event they do cheese you should be the one with the BO advantage. Anyone relying heavily on such a miniscule advantage won't be anywhere near a high level player, making it hilarious that so many people here claim it ruins their practice. If you think it grants a significant advantage, then having to master many more races and matchups surely incurrs an equal if not greater disadvantage (you can't just ignore it because Random players have a choice).
I'm saying that going nexus first in PvZ is less of a risk for the protoss player if he random'd protoss, than if he had picked it. I am not claiming the first 3 minutes decide the result of the game, but that they have an impact on it. I'm not at all talking about whether you assume the random player will cheese, but the fact that going 6pool as a zerg against a random player would be stupid, but going 6pool as a zerg against a non-random protoss is not necessarily stupid. Thus, non-random protosses have to worry about sixpools and random protosses don't (unless playing against people who play illogically)
On August 25 2012 06:53 Catatafish wrote: Why is the BO advantage in quotation marks, and why would any such advantage not inflate your rank?
Edit: You ninjaedit'ed, so I will as well. It's not about any kind of blind play, it's about random players having the luxury of choosing a build that suits the race they're playing against, and non-random players not having that luxury. I'm not arguing that all random players are bad, nor am I arguing that random turns diamonds into GM. What I am arguing is that a hidden race is a very real advantage. I never said it was an insurmountable or even a large advantage, just that it is there. A random player getting protoss can for instance go nexus first against a zerg and not scout for a sixpool and be far safer than a non-random protoss doing the same thing. Nexus first gives more money than forge first, no probe scout gives more money than probe scout. Can you please explain to me how these things are not advantages?
Because you are assuming Random players play to that advantage. There are many Random players that simply play standard. People like you assume every Random is cheesing, so in the event they do cheese you should be the one with the BO advantage. Anyone relying heavily on such a miniscule advantage won't be anywhere near a high level player, making it hilarious that so many people here claim it ruins their practice. If you think it grants a significant advantage, then having to master many more races and matchups surely incurrs an equal if not greater disadvantage (you can't just ignore it because Random players have a choice).
Ironically, I've made it to Masters as Random simply by defending vs cheese for the most part. I rarely cheese as random and when I feel like cheesing I actually select a race so that it isn't as expected.
On August 25 2012 04:02 Befree wrote: I find this attitude against random very infuriating. People who are too stupid, too biased, and too quick to whine, making ignorant, poorly thought out arguments, against a non-existent problem for the sake of preserving their delusional self image and securing their fictional narrative on why life is not fair for them.
Even accepting (the terrible) arguments of random being an advantage or impeding your learning, who the fuck are you to lecture others on their choices on a public Battle.net ladder? Quit expecting others to conform under your will.
This whiny, pathetic, entitled attitude is getting really old on here. Get over yourselves.
Speaking of poorly thought out arguments, what, other than angry adjectives and ad hominem attacks, are yours?
Choosing random produces sub-optimal Starcraft games and involves increased BO luck. How is that beneficial to the game? The argument that 'random players have to learn all races, so they need an advantage' doesn't make any sense. They can just choose not to play random. Giving them an artificial advantage like this (in my view, absolutely analagous to giving their units +10% HP or something equally silly) is not helping anyone. Why would random players want to be artificially higher ranked through increased build order luck, rather than beating their opponent purely through their own skill? If I played random, I would like to win a TvZ purely on the strength of my ability to play the matchup rather than winning from an early lead caused by my opponents fear of going hatchery first. The argument that it increases variety is bullshit as well. Rather, it does the exact opposite. It forces the opponent down a weird catch-all build (like 15 pool 16 hatch for zerg) and thus decreases the level of early game variety in the game. Aside from this the hidden random specifically caters to the cheesy play from random players that I feel would be prominent enough without the hidden-race-buff. It might not be a huge deal, but for these reasons, I really don't enjoy encountering random on the ladder at all. That's my opinion, and unlike yours its complete with arguments and all.
It's absurd and funny at the same time that you think the "BO advantage" of Random artificially inflates Random player's rank/skill. I honestly can't wrap my head around that. Like do you honestly believe that every Random player blindly plays the same builds specifically to counter the most common openers for each race? Like seriously. If you're actually half decent at SC2 you aren't even going to be playing many Random players in the first place. And chances are they aren't half bad players. Stop acting like Random turns diamonds into GMs or some shit.
Because there aren't high master and GM random players, forgot about that.
On August 25 2012 07:06 Catatafish wrote: I'm saying that going nexus first in PvZ is less of a risk for the protoss player if he random'd protoss, than if he had picked it. I am not claiming the first 3 minutes decide the result of the game, but that they have an impact on it. I'm not at all talking about whether you assume the random player will cheese, but the fact that going 6pool as a zerg against a random player would be stupid, but going 6pool as a zerg against a non-random protoss is not necessarily stupid. Thus, non-random protosses have to worry about sixpools and random protosses don't (unless playing against people who play illogically)
just like terran doesnt have to worry about 6pool. why would anyone 6pool against random for 1/3 of them being terran? as i've said, open safe as if you're playing a 4th race, a 1/3 chance of getting 6 pooled. scout and move on from the "unknown".
On August 25 2012 04:02 Befree wrote: I find this attitude against random very infuriating. People who are too stupid, too biased, and too quick to whine, making ignorant, poorly thought out arguments, against a non-existent problem for the sake of preserving their delusional self image and securing their fictional narrative on why life is not fair for them.
Even accepting (the terrible) arguments of random being an advantage or impeding your learning, who the fuck are you to lecture others on their choices on a public Battle.net ladder? Quit expecting others to conform under your will.
This whiny, pathetic, entitled attitude is getting really old on here. Get over yourselves.
Speaking of poorly thought out arguments, what, other than angry adjectives and ad hominem attacks, are yours?
Choosing random produces sub-optimal Starcraft games and involves increased BO luck. How is that beneficial to the game? The argument that 'random players have to learn all races, so they need an advantage' doesn't make any sense. They can just choose not to play random. Giving them an artificial advantage like this (in my view, absolutely analagous to giving their units +10% HP or something equally silly) is not helping anyone. Why would random players want to be artificially higher ranked through increased build order luck, rather than beating their opponent purely through their own skill? If I played random, I would like to win a TvZ purely on the strength of my ability to play the matchup rather than winning from an early lead caused by my opponents fear of going hatchery first. The argument that it increases variety is bullshit as well. Rather, it does the exact opposite. It forces the opponent down a weird catch-all build (like 15 pool 16 hatch for zerg) and thus decreases the level of early game variety in the game. Aside from this the hidden random specifically caters to the cheesy play from random players that I feel would be prominent enough without the hidden-race-buff. It might not be a huge deal, but for these reasons, I really don't enjoy encountering random on the ladder at all. That's my opinion, and unlike yours its complete with arguments and all.
It's absurd and funny at the same time that you think the "BO advantage" of Random artificially inflates Random player's rank/skill. I honestly can't wrap my head around that. Like do you honestly believe that every Random player blindly plays the same builds specifically to counter the most common openers for each race? Like seriously. If you're actually half decent at SC2 you aren't even going to be playing many Random players in the first place. And chances are they aren't half bad players. Stop acting like Random turns diamonds into GMs or some shit.
Because there aren't high master and GM random players, forgot about that.
Why are you trying to be a smart ass? Of course there is an extremely small number of Random players in GM league. Do you honestly think they wouldn't be GM if they played a single race? Do you honestly think they got to GM by relying on these stupid hypothetical build order advantages that you guys are whining about? If your answer is yes, then there's nothing else to discuss. You are hopeless.
On August 25 2012 06:58 Lorch wrote: 1. Tell your opponnent your race 2. Don't get one of these guys who think you are mind gaming them. 3. Play pro random
On August 25 2012 07:04 SupLilSon wrote: Because you are assuming Random players play to that advantage. There are many Random players that simply play standard. People like you assume every Random is cheesing, so in the event they do cheese you should be the one with the BO advantage. Anyone relying heavily on such a miniscule advantage won't be anywhere near a high level player, making it hilarious that so many people here claim it ruins their practice. If you think it grants a significant advantage, then having to master many more races and matchups surely incurrs an equal if not greater disadvantage (you can't just ignore it because Random players have a choice).
The problem is that the hidden random does not allow the opposing player to play standard. A zerg player playing against a random rolling terran, for instance, has to go pool first instead of the standard hatch first, while the terran gets to do a more optimal build. Again, I'm not saying it's a huge advantage, but it does limit my options and force me down a non-optimal build that I don't want to be pracitising, and it decreases the level of diversity of play.
Your second point that the advantage given (which you now, sort of, seem to recognize, even though you found it borderline retarded before) by random is outweighed by the disadvantage of learning 9 match-ups is self-evidently true, otherwise the pro scene would be dominated by randoms and it would be a really huge issue (which I never argued, it was. I was just trying to give a well-argued reason for why I don't like it, in response to your provocative earlier post). But it is also irrelevant, which goes back to my earlier point about the analagous unit health buff. You could remove the hidden random and instead give all random players a +5% (the exact number is not important to the argument) hit point handicap, and still probably argue that playing random was not overpowered because the advantaged is outweighed by the difficulty of learning three times as many match ups. I would still argue, however, that you should, insofar as it is possible, win a game solely based on the strength of the match up you are playing, and not due to a buff that is a kind of pat on the back for you because you are so awesome you can play 9 matchups. If I get beaten by a random player, and a lucky early game situation for him had any major part to play in it, I find it really infuriating. (This is not as inconcievable as you make it sound. Less economy, sub-optimal overlord locations, etc. can all have major impacts on the game. Starcraft is in the details, which is why it's awesome.)
On August 25 2012 07:04 SupLilSon wrote: Because you are assuming Random players play to that advantage. There are many Random players that simply play standard. People like you assume every Random is cheesing, so in the event they do cheese you should be the one with the BO advantage. Anyone relying heavily on such a miniscule advantage won't be anywhere near a high level player, making it hilarious that so many people here claim it ruins their practice. If you think it grants a significant advantage, then having to master many more races and matchups surely incurrs an equal if not greater disadvantage (you can't just ignore it because Random players have a choice).
The problem is that the hidden random does not allow the opposing player to play random. A zerg player playing against a random rolling terran, for instance, has to go pool first instead of the standard hatch first, while the terran gets to do a more optimal build. Again, I'm not saying it's a huge advantage, but it does limit my options and force me down a non-optimal build that I don't want to be pracitising, and it decreases the level of diversity of play.
Your second point that the advantage given (which you now, sort of, seem to recognize, even though you found it borderline retarded before) by random is outweighed by the disadvantage of learning 9 match-ups is self-evidently true, otherwise the pro scene would be dominated by randoms and it would be a really huge issue (which I never argued, it was. I was just trying to give a well-argued reason for why I don't like it, in response to your provocative earlier post). But it is also irrelevant, which goes back to my earlier point about the analagous unit health buff. You could remove the hidden random and instead give all random players a +5% (the exact number is not important to the argument) hit point handicap, and still probably argue that playing random was not overpowered because the advantaged is outweighed by the difficulty of learning three times as many match ups. I would still argue, however, that you should, insofar as it is possible, win a game solely based on the strength of the match up you are playing, and not due to a buff that is a kind of pat on the back for you because you are so awesome you can play 9 matchups. If I get beaten by a random player, and a lucky early game situation for him had any major part to play in it, I find it really infuriating. (This is not as inconcievable as you make it sound. Less economy, sub-optimal overlord locations, etc. can all have major impacts on the game. Starcraft is in the details, which is why it's awesome.)
Are you even reading what I, jinorazi and others are saying? In order for a Random player to play a "more optimal" build they would have to taking big risks based on assumptions as well, unless they scout..
On August 25 2012 07:04 SupLilSon wrote: Because you are assuming Random players play to that advantage. There are many Random players that simply play standard. People like you assume every Random is cheesing, so in the event they do cheese you should be the one with the BO advantage. Anyone relying heavily on such a miniscule advantage won't be anywhere near a high level player, making it hilarious that so many people here claim it ruins their practice. If you think it grants a significant advantage, then having to master many more races and matchups surely incurrs an equal if not greater disadvantage (you can't just ignore it because Random players have a choice).
The problem is that the hidden random does not allow the opposing player to play random. A zerg player playing against a random rolling terran, for instance, has to go pool first instead of the standard hatch first, while the terran gets to do a more optimal build. Again, I'm not saying it's a huge advantage, but it does limit my options and force me down a non-optimal build that I don't want to be pracitising, and it decreases the level of diversity of play.
"I can't do the ONE build that puts me at an advantage, so that detracts from the diversity"
Did I really just read that?
If anything, playing vs a Random adds more dynamic to your skills because you are constantly on your toes and trying to adapt to an unknown entity.
On August 25 2012 07:04 SupLilSon wrote: Because you are assuming Random players play to that advantage. There are many Random players that simply play standard. People like you assume every Random is cheesing, so in the event they do cheese you should be the one with the BO advantage. Anyone relying heavily on such a miniscule advantage won't be anywhere near a high level player, making it hilarious that so many people here claim it ruins their practice. If you think it grants a significant advantage, then having to master many more races and matchups surely incurrs an equal if not greater disadvantage (you can't just ignore it because Random players have a choice).
The problem is that the hidden random does not allow the opposing player to play random. A zerg player playing against a random rolling terran, for instance, has to go pool first instead of the standard hatch first, while the terran gets to do a more optimal build. Again, I'm not saying it's a huge advantage, but it does limit my options and force me down a non-optimal build that I don't want to be pracitising, and it decreases the level of diversity of play.
"I can't do the ONE build that puts me at an advantage, so that detracts from the diversity"
Did I really just read that?
If anything, playing vs a Random adds more dynamic to your skills because you are constantly on your toes and trying to adapt to an unknown entity.
No, people want to play exactly how they see their favorite pro play, every single game. Because that is the optimal way to play, even though they have no idea what makes it optimal.
Jesus, okay, I'll go over it again. I play zerg. I have different openers for each match up. Playing against random, I have to start from one generic, catch-all opener, which limits the variety of builds I can do in each individual match up. I don't see how that is at all disputable.
Making uneducated guesses as to which your opponents race might happen to be does make add more dynamic to your skill. You can't adapt to 'an unknown entity', that doesn't make sense. You can adapt once it is known, at which point you will (theoretically) have a slight build order disadvantage.
On August 25 2012 07:03 rd wrote: The advantage has been acknowledged hundreds of times. No shit having your race is hidden is an advantage. Now can you acknowledge that the disadvantages are even bigger and random as a whole is generally disadvantaged? Like, what are you trying to imply? That random is imbalanced? You have nothing to gain by arguing this obvious point unless you're trying to make an entirely new one.
I was arguing for it because the previous post did not seem to acknowledge it. If you read on you will see that I am precisely not implying that 'random is imbalanced', but that I don't like the idea that random needs a buff (and one that limits the variety of play possible to the opponent) to make up for the fact that mastering 9 match ups is difficult
On August 25 2012 07:21 SupLilSon wrote: Are you even reading what I, jinorazi and others are saying? In order for a Random player to play a "more optimal" build they would have to taking big risks based on assumptions as well, unless they scout..
Yes, I am. I could ask you the same question. 1 rax FE is more optimal in TvZ than 14pool 16 hatch. If I play against a random terran, he can go 1 rax FE, the more optimal build, and I have to go pool first, the less optimal build. Again, how is that disputable?
On August 25 2012 06:58 Lorch wrote: 1. Tell your opponnent your race 2. Don't get one of these guys who think you are mind gaming them. 3. Play pro random
This doesnt work.Most people lie.Even sometimes they dont lie how can I believe his honesty.It is ladder everyone wants points-.-
optimal build do not win you games nor should it be the #1 focus of your attention in becoming a bette rplayer. and if you really want to practice match ups, ladder isn't the place. and i totally understand in practice environments, random is not good but ladder isn't that.
On August 25 2012 06:58 Lorch wrote: 1. Tell your opponnent your race 2. Don't get one of these guys who think you are mind gaming them. 3. Play pro random
This doesnt work.Most people lie.Even sometimes they dont lie how can I believe his honesty.It is ladder everyone wants points-.-
I don't care about points, I just want the random achievement ._. I would be fine with the race being displayed when the map is loading. Or maybe they could just get rid of random achievements altogether which would at least fix this for some people.
On August 25 2012 06:58 Lorch wrote: 1. Tell your opponnent your race 2. Don't get one of these guys who think you are mind gaming them. 3. Play pro random
This doesnt work.Most people lie.Even sometimes they dont lie how can I believe his honesty.It is ladder everyone wants points-.-
Well see the thing is I'm on the other side of the fence were I'm like "I just wanna improve in all these matchups and this guy doesn't believe me so the game is fucked and I get bad practice". But yeah assholes on ladder lying about it really fucks up your life playing random.
On August 25 2012 07:35 jinorazi wrote: optimal build do not win you games or should it be the #1 focus of your attention. and if you really want to practice match ups, ladder isn't the place. and i totally understand in practice environments, random is not good but ladder isn't that.
But optimal builds aren't irrelevant. That's why there are long threads debating whether 9 overlord or extractor trick 11 overlord is optimal.
I would agree that having practice partners is more optimal (although a combination might be even better), but saying ladder is not a practice environment doesn't make sense. The ladder is the practice environment for a huge portion of sc2 players.
On August 25 2012 06:58 Lorch wrote: 1. Tell your opponnent your race 2. Don't get one of these guys who think you are mind gaming them. 3. Play pro random
This doesnt work.Most people lie.Even sometimes they dont lie how can I believe his honesty.It is ladder everyone wants points-.-
Well see the thing is I'm on the other side of the fence were I'm like "I just wanna improve in all these matchups and this guy doesn't believe me so the game is fucked and I get bad practice". But yeah assholes on ladder lying about it really fucks up your life playing random.
Then you are one of those players that SHOULD select his race before clicking "Find Match" Roll a die or something. There are others who play Random as an actual race and want to play RvT RvZ and RvP matchups, which completely differ from the standard matchups.
On August 25 2012 07:35 jinorazi wrote: optimal build do not win you games or should it be the #1 focus of your attention. and if you really want to practice match ups, ladder isn't the place. and i totally understand in practice environments, random is not good but ladder isn't that.
But optimal builds aren't irrelevant. That's why there are long threads debating whether 9 overlord or extractor trick 11 overlord is optimal.
I would agree that having practice partners is more optimal (although a combination might be even better), but saying ladder is not a practice environment doesn't make sense. The ladder is the practice environment for a huge portion of sc2 players.
yes to get better, not to practice your optimal build order for certain match up....because that does not work vs random and you dont get the MU u want. and random is on ladder.
having a optimal build, studying it to be most optimal is one thing, blaming random for deterring you from using that optimal favorite build is another. that is a cry, a complaint, not a valid one at that. and not having a optimal build will not be the reason for losing the game nor having the optimal build be the reason for winning the game. thats just a personal perfection one wants to have in their build, it should not be taken in as "a way to win".
On August 25 2012 07:35 jinorazi wrote: optimal build do not win you games or should it be the #1 focus of your attention. and if you really want to practice match ups, ladder isn't the place. and i totally understand in practice environments, random is not good but ladder isn't that.
But optimal builds aren't irrelevant. That's why there are long threads debating whether 9 overlord or extractor trick 11 overlord is optimal.
I would agree that having practice partners is more optimal (although a combination might be even better), but saying ladder is not a practice environment doesn't make sense. The ladder is the practice environment for a huge portion of sc2 players.
yes to get better, not to practice your optimal build order for certain match up....because that does not work vs random and you dont get the MU u want. and random is on ladder.
having a optimal build, studying it to be most optimal is one thing, blaming random for deterring you from using that optimal favorite build is another. that is a cry, a complaint, not a valid one at that.
While we're at it, we should ban all cheesers. These ass holes deter everyone from using their optimal builds that they want to practice and are ruining the game!
No they don't. Cheesers help coming up with the optimal builds, as they try to find holes and exploit them.
On August 25 2012 07:43 jinorazi wrote: yes to get better, not to practice your optimal build order for certain match up....because that does not work vs random and you dont get the MU u want. and random is on ladder.
having a optimal build, studying it to be most optimal is one thing, blaming random for deterring you from using that optimal favorite build is another. that is a cry, a complaint, not a valid one at that. and not having a optimal build will not be the reason for losing the game nor having the optimal build be the reason for winning the game. thats just a personal perfection one wants to have in their build, it should not be taken in as "a way to win".
You can absolutely lose a game from having a shitty overlord placement for instance. That has happened to me countless of times. You lose by getting a disadvantage and then having that disadvantage increase until you are out of the game. A sub-optimal build is a disadvantage. It impacts the result of the game. It doesn't determine it absolutely. All the little things combined usually do.
If cheese was finding holes, then they would change. Pretty sure a 6pool, 9pool, 2rax, 2gate proxy, bunker rush, cannon rush, and 4gate have all remained the same for the past 2 years...
But your build has to be 6-pool proof to not be a gamble. If there wasn't any kind of cheese then people would just play greedier and greedier. When the metagame evolves towards greedy enough play, cheeses start to get more commonly used again. So 6pool has actually been used a few times, for instance, against terran because terrans felt they could go 14cc every time versus zerg.
On August 25 2012 07:43 jinorazi wrote: yes to get better, not to practice your optimal build order for certain match up....because that does not work vs random and you dont get the MU u want. and random is on ladder.
having a optimal build, studying it to be most optimal is one thing, blaming random for deterring you from using that optimal favorite build is another. that is a cry, a complaint, not a valid one at that. and not having a optimal build will not be the reason for losing the game nor having the optimal build be the reason for winning the game. thats just a personal perfection one wants to have in their build, it should not be taken in as "a way to win".
You can absolutely lose a game from having a shitty overlord placement for instance. That has happened to me countless of times. You lose by getting a disadvantage and then having that disadvantage increase until you are out of the game. A sub-optimal build is a disadvantage. It impacts the result of the game. It doesn't determine it absolutely. All the little things combined usually do.
do people leave the game losing their first overlord to misplacement or getting it sniped by marine? maybe some people but most people dont. as the game goes on, previous disadvantages become smaller. player's skill comes into play on minimizing that damage through proper reactions like buying time, doing damage, all-in, harass, w/e. player's skill and decision making throughout the game will, or should determine the winner of the game, not when you chronoboost or when you place a gateway, when to make first overlord, 9 scout or 14 scout etc. (as long as they're within proper times)
what i'm saying is player's skill plays bigger role in winning or losing the game instead of how you manage the first 3 minutes. the talk of random advantage is soooooo over-exaggerated and talking as if 9scout is suicide is horrendously idiotic. as long as you're not making 5 evo chambers or 5 hatcheries or something of that stupidity or blindly doing a certain build like ffe or 6pool, you should be able to adapt easily after scouting.
I'm not necessarily talking about losing an overlord to a marine, but rather not having an overlord in place to scout for a certain timing, which then ends up killing me.
I don't really understand your second point. I agree that the player's skill and decision making should determine the winner, which is why I am arguing against an artificial buff. What I don't know, is what 'skill and decision-making' is, if it is not the sum of all the little individual actions that you don't seem to think are important.
Edit cause you edited: How can you say that I am exaggerating the 'random advantage' when I have only said that it exists? I'm not saying it is huge or insurmountable. I'm saying it's there. And that the game would be better if it weren't.
And I'm not saying a 9 scout is suicide, I'm saying that having to do it is a disadvantage. Stop with the reductio ad absurdum please.
On August 25 2012 08:10 Catatafish wrote: I'm not necessarily talking about losing an overlord to a marine, but rather not having an overlord in place to scout for a certain timing, which then ends up killing me.
I don't really understand your second point. I agree that the player's skill and decision making should determine the winner, which is why I am arguing against an artificial buff. What I don't know, is what 'skill and decision-making' is, if it is not the sum of all the little individual actions that you don't seem to think are important.
and how do players make those small individual actions? proper decision making and skill is what determines those actions, no? wont it be the player's fault for reacting badly to a randomer? why commit to something so fast when all you have to do is open safe and scout, then react to that? mistakes happen and sometimes games can end with one mistake, not sure how that is related to random.
i'm saying you say it is disadvantageous to 9scout, yes, sure, compared to 14 scout, i agree. BUT not enough to complain about, not enough to say random has THAT much advantage, it is minuscule, it has literally nothing to partake in "small things that add up". its becoming mule vs scan argument. it doesnt matter, one is not better than the other, do what you need, use what you need.. if you're scared of random, scout early and know for sure, isn't that worth the disadvantage you get? scared that zerg will 6pool? scout early. my point is randomer's advantage and opponent's disadvantage is minuscule, not enough to complain about in terms of how much of upper hand they get. only thing i can agree on is practice environment.
Commit to what, placing your overlords? As you will see from Belial's pretty awesome guide to overlord placement, there is a specific one for each match up. One of the things this does is protect you against certain cheeses. The overlord placement that will help you scout for 2port banshee will not be the same that will help you scout zerglings running across the map. That's not about committing, it's about making a noneducated guess, something the game should have as least of as possible.The point is that you have less to react to when you are playing against a random until you scout him. You don't think that matters, I think it decreases the level of play for everyone.
I think that the principle of giving them any kind of advantage, however miniscule (I don't however think the difference between 9 drone scout and 14 drone scout is that insignificant) is basically flawed
On August 25 2012 08:16 Catatafish wrote: Commit to what, placing your overlords? As you will see from Belial's pretty awesome guide to overlord placement, there is a specific one for each match up. One of the things this does is protect you against certain cheeses. The overlord placement that will help you scout for 2port banshee will not be the same that will help you scout zerglings running across the map. That's not about committing, it's about making a noneducated guess, something the game should have as least of as possible.The point is that you have less to react to when you are playing against a random until you scout him. You don't think that matters, I think it decreases the level of play for everyone.
I think that the principle of giving them any kind of advantage, however miniscule (I don't however think the difference between 9 drone scout and 14 drone scout is that insignificant) is basically flawed
what i'm saying is being scared of 6pool or proxy two rax, 2gate, bunker rush, scv/marine all in and whatever you might think of random is the same. you react by scouting, how is that any different. you open different in tvp as you would in tvz or tvt, how is TvR any different? (or other races, zvz, zvt, zvp, etc. etc.) you open safe and move on after scouting. that is my point, there is 0 disadvantage to anyone. the disadvantage comes from what you say you have to do different from random and non random, and i'm saying that is no different than comparing one match up to another.
Surely the supposed disadvantage to playing as random is eliminated by using an external source of randomness, i.e. instead of selecting 'random', roll a dice or use a random number generator to determine the race you'll play for each game. That way, your opponent will know your race.
On August 25 2012 08:13 jinorazi wrote:It has literally nothing to partake in "small things that add up".
That is flat out wrong. Exchange 'literally' for 'almost' and it would be debatable instead.
On August 25 2012 08:26 jinorazi wrote:
what i'm saying is being scared of 6pool or proxy two rax, 2gate, bunker rush, scv/marine all in and whatever you might think of random is the same. you react by scouting, how is that any different. you open different in tvp as you would in tvz or tvt, how is TvR any different? (or other races, zvz, zvt, zvp, etc. etc.) you open safe and move on after scouting. that is my point, there is 0 disadvantage to anyone. the disadvantage comes from what you say you have to do different from random and non random, and i'm saying that is no different than comparing one match up to another.
TvR is different because there is no race called 'random', there are three races and picking random, you can limit the amount of things you have to account for, while your opponent can't. This argument is getting very pointless. I'll just reiterate my point that I don't see why random should be given an artificial advantage.
On August 25 2012 07:04 SupLilSon wrote: Because you are assuming Random players play to that advantage. There are many Random players that simply play standard. People like you assume every Random is cheesing, so in the event they do cheese you should be the one with the BO advantage. Anyone relying heavily on such a miniscule advantage won't be anywhere near a high level player, making it hilarious that so many people here claim it ruins their practice. If you think it grants a significant advantage, then having to master many more races and matchups surely incurrs an equal if not greater disadvantage (you can't just ignore it because Random players have a choice).
The problem is that the hidden random does not allow the opposing player to play standard. A zerg player playing against a random rolling terran, for instance, has to go pool first instead of the standard hatch first, while the terran gets to do a more optimal build. Again, I'm not saying it's a huge advantage, but it does limit my options and force me down a non-optimal build that I don't want to be pracitising, and it decreases the level of diversity of play.
Your second point that the advantage given (which you now, sort of, seem to recognize, even though you found it borderline retarded before) by random is outweighed by the disadvantage of learning 9 match-ups is self-evidently true, otherwise the pro scene would be dominated by randoms and it would be a really huge issue (which I never argued, it was. I was just trying to give a well-argued reason for why I don't like it, in response to your provocative earlier post). But it is also irrelevant, which goes back to my earlier point about the analagous unit health buff. You could remove the hidden random and instead give all random players a +5% (the exact number is not important to the argument) hit point handicap, and still probably argue that playing random was not overpowered because the advantaged is outweighed by the difficulty of learning three times as many match ups. I would still argue, however, that you should, insofar as it is possible, win a game solely based on the strength of the match up you are playing, and not due to a buff that is a kind of pat on the back for you because you are so awesome you can play 9 matchups. If I get beaten by a random player, and a lucky early game situation for him had any major part to play in it, I find it really infuriating. (This is not as inconcievable as you make it sound. Less economy, sub-optimal overlord locations, etc. can all have major impacts on the game. Starcraft is in the details, which is why it's awesome.)
I think the point that random is a fourth race has gone miles over your head. You aren't opening pool first against a Terran. You're opening pool first against a random. It's a different race, different match-up. You're playing standard ZvR, not ZvT. This is the advantage of playing random. Consequently, it's the only advantage overwhelmed by it's glaringly large downsides -- that regardless of whose opening build is more optimal, you still have a big advantage after the first three minutes.
TvR is different because there is no race called 'random', there are three races and picking random, you can limit the amount of things you have to account for, while your opponent can't. This argument is getting very pointless. I'll just reiterate my point that I don't see why random should be given an artificial advantage.
Are you kidding me? In the same breath you declare that random is not a race yet you ask why it has an advantage. Because it's it's own goddamn race. Jesus. This argument cannot proceed until you realize this.
No, I get it. I just firmly disagree with it. That's why people talk about there being 3 races and 9 match ups, and how good each player's match up is. I haven't heard anyone talk about how awesome Taeja's TvR is. Although it probably would be.
And now I'm arguing against the points that random is an entirely different race and that playing against someone who is random doesn't really make a big difference at the same time...
On August 25 2012 08:40 Catatafish wrote: No, I get it. I just firmly disagree with it. That's why people talk about there being 3 races and 9 match ups, and how good each player's match up is. I haven't heard anyone talk about how awesome Taeja's TvR is. Although it probably would be.
There are 9 match-ups but you're opening vs random. And I'm pretty sure Taeja's TvR is among the best in the world. Doubt any real random player would get remotely close to his MMR, let alone qualify for a GSL.
the unknown factor can easily be neglected. its no different than in zvt and wonder "terran might double proxy rax me, i better scout early" or being scared of 6pool or other econ builds and playing vs random. scout and that advantage is gone, completely. that unknown factor applies to non random too since you dont know what they will do, i'm saying this "unknown" is no different from random or non random, i think its safe to say random has no effect on terran.
why dont you complain about terran that how they can block ramp and do whatever the hell they want safely meanwhile zerg needs to worry about so many things? isn't that unfair advantage to one race? in that sense, random is a 4th race for the first 3 minutse and my point was that the first 3 minutes of unknown factor does not determine the winner of the game.
Which incidentally has nothing to do with my point, as I have stressed in like five separate posts. I am not claiming random is overpowered or in any way a good idea if you want to play as high level as possible.
We're arguing semantics now, and I don't think we can come to a conclusion. Yours, however, seems blatantly illogical to me. Now TvR is not a different match-up anymore. Random is a fourth race, but then after you see them they change to one of the three first races.
I came into this whole argument because I strongly dislike playing against random, and someone called people of that opinion "stupid, biased, quick to whine, delusional and pathetic" (I paraphrased), while even (which is pretty mind-boggling) criticizing how they argued at the same time. So now I've argued why I feel this way, and I'm officially done with this discussion.
On August 25 2012 08:54 Catatafish wrote: Which incidentally has nothing to do with my point, as I have stressed in like five separate posts. I am not claiming random is overpowered or in any way a good idea if you want to play as high level as possible.
We're arguing semantics now, and I don't think we can come to a conclusion. Yours, however, seems blatantly illogical to me. Now TvR is not a different match-up anymore. Random is a fourth race, but then after you see them they change to one of the three first races.
because you dont know what race the opponent is, you obviously have to adapt to that fact and open safely that can adapt to whatever race they may be. because your build is predetermined or influenced by the fact that you dont know your opponent's race, you have to open a certain way, same way how different match ups have different openers.
thats why people say random should be treated as a 4th race, because your opener is influenced by it like other match ups.
On August 25 2012 08:54 Catatafish wrote: Which incidentally has nothing to do with my point, as I have stressed in like five separate posts. I am not claiming random is overpowered or in any way a good idea if you want to play as high level as possible.
We're arguing semantics now, and I don't think we can come to a conclusion. Yours, however, seems blatantly illogical to me. Now TvR is not a different match-up anymore. Random is a fourth race, but then after you see them they change to one of the three first races.
Random is a fourth race and TvR is a different match-up, which is why you open the most optimal build against a random player. It turns into a TvZ when you scout hes zerg. You opened against a random, not a zerg. Is that really that hard to understand? You're just twisting shit for your own convenience. I'm not even sure what you have to gain, other than maybe 1 more win every other 20 games when you queue against a random.
On August 25 2012 08:59 rd wrote: Random is a fourth race and TvR is a different match-up, which is why you open the most optimal build against a random player. It turns into a TvZ when you scout hes zerg. You opened against a random, not a zerg. Is that really that hard to understand? You're just twisting shit for your own convenience. I'm not even sure what you have to gain, other than maybe 1 more win every other 20 games when you queue against a random.
I disagree with the premise that random constitutes a fourth race, and I think it is harmful to the game that you have to do catch-all builds.
Conversely, what do random have to gain by having their race hidden? Other than maybe 1 more win every other 20 games.
FFS, the opener is not influenced like every other match up (where depending on the metagame there might be three radically different openers), it turns the opener into a catch all build that sort of but not really works against all three races (or a gamble). It doesn't add diversity, it removes it.
On August 25 2012 08:59 rd wrote: Random is a fourth race and TvR is a different match-up, which is why you open the most optimal build against a random player. It turns into a TvZ when you scout hes zerg. You opened against a random, not a zerg. Is that really that hard to understand? You're just twisting shit for your own convenience. I'm not even sure what you have to gain, other than maybe 1 more win every other 20 games when you queue against a random.
I disagree with the premise that random constitutes a fourth race, and I think it is harmful to the game that you have to do catch-all builds.
Conversely, what do random have to gain by having their race hidden? Other than maybe 1 more win every other 20 games.
because we play for fun. not for advantage, not for anything, i personally play random because i just want to play all three races equally and i'm not going to go out of my way to go buy a dice and roll it for other's sake, i'll just tell my race at start which i do. i better good with all three races, its the least i can do after playing bw for 10 years. plus i make good practice partner knowing all three races.
because we play for fun. not for advantage, not for anything, i personally play random because i just want to play all three races equally and i'm not going to go out of my way to go buy a dice and roll it for other's sake, i'll just tell my race at start which i do. i better good with all three races, its the least i can do after playing bw for 10 years.
You don't play for the advantage, but you should still have that advantage because...
On August 25 2012 08:59 rd wrote: Random is a fourth race and TvR is a different match-up, which is why you open the most optimal build against a random player. It turns into a TvZ when you scout hes zerg. You opened against a random, not a zerg. Is that really that hard to understand? You're just twisting shit for your own convenience. I'm not even sure what you have to gain, other than maybe 1 more win every other 20 games when you queue against a random.
I disagree with the premise that random constitutes a fourth race, and I think it is harmful to the game that you have to do catch-all builds.
Conversely, what do random have to gain by having their race hidden? Other than maybe 1 more win every other 20 games.
FFS, the opener is not influenced like every other match up (where depending on the metagame there might be three radically different openers), it turns the opener into a catch all build that sort of but not really works against all three races (or a gamble). It doesn't add diversity, it removes it.
We get it, you really really really hate non-standard games where you might have to play a tiny tiny tiny tiny bit differently.
because we play for fun. not for advantage, not for anything, i personally play random because i just want to play all three races equally and i'm not going to go out of my way to go buy a dice and roll it for other's sake, i'll just tell my race at start which i do. i better good with all three races, its the least i can do after playing bw for 10 years.
You don't play for the advantage, but you should still have that advantage because...
if you want to write a letter to blizzard saying loading screen should show " Random Zerg", "Random Protoss", "Random Terran", i have no objection.
plus random has no effect on terran. build order is not set in stone after you 9 scout and there will be plenty of room to figure out what to do after knowing their race.
On August 25 2012 08:59 rd wrote: Random is a fourth race and TvR is a different match-up, which is why you open the most optimal build against a random player. It turns into a TvZ when you scout hes zerg. You opened against a random, not a zerg. Is that really that hard to understand? You're just twisting shit for your own convenience. I'm not even sure what you have to gain, other than maybe 1 more win every other 20 games when you queue against a random.
I disagree with the premise that random constitutes a fourth race, and I think it is harmful to the game that you have to do catch-all builds.
Conversely, what do random have to gain by having their race hidden? Other than maybe 1 more win every other 20 games.
FFS, the opener is not influenced like every other match up (where depending on the metagame there might be three radically different openers), it turns the opener into a catch all build that sort of but not really works against all three races (or a gamble). It doesn't add diversity, it removes it.
I'm sorry that you disagree with a fact? What more do you want me to tell you? And what rule states you have to open 'catch-all' against random, and even if you did, elaborate on how it harms the game?
and christfuck they're playing 3 races at once and are consistently worse players than "evenly matched" opponents. The random factor gives them a slight advantage to balance it out. It creates a fourth race with it's own unique aspect. It's existed for 14 years and was a cool feature in SC1 so it was brought over in SC2. You're ridiculous.
You can re-read my posts for answers to your questions, but I'll reiterate it briefly.
It's not a fact. There are three races and random lets you pick one of them at random. Different RTS' handle the notion of random differently. Some show the races on the load screen, some don't.
You don't have to open catch-all against random. But if you don't, you are taking a chance that your opponent does not spawn as the race that you are not opening safely against. In any case your build will be (say if you 9 scout, when you otherwise wouldn't have) suboptimal for the match-up.
It harms the game because it removes diversity of play. A protoss against a zerg has a wide variety of openers to choose from, one of which is FFE, arguably the best and certainly an interesting build. Playing against a zerg who picked random, he has to go gateway first (a gateway he can't place optimally, he has to place it at the ramp to wall for potential zerglings, so it might get sniped by marauders later), thus limiting his options. For this reason, Day9 for instance chose to announce his race at the beginning of each game, so that he could play against the optimal play for his opponent.
I didn't play SC1. I don't see how 14 years of existence is relevant. You're unnecessarily ad hominem.
On August 25 2012 09:12 jinorazi wrote: still, i think you're taking random too seriously. most people play for fun you know...not knowing your opponent's race is not the end of the world.
On August 25 2012 09:20 Catatafish wrote: You can re-read my posts for answers to your questions, but I'll reiterate it briefly.
It's not a fact. There are three races and random lets you pick one of them at random. Different RTS' handle the notion of random differently. Some show the races on the load screen, some don't.
You don't have to open catch-all against random. But if you don't, you are taking a chance that your opponent does not spawn as the race that you are not opening safely against. In any case your build will be (say if you 9 scout, when you otherwise wouldn't have) suboptimal for the match-up.
It harms the game because it removes diversity of play. A protoss against a zerg has a wide variety of openers to choose from, one of which is FFE, arguably the best and certainly an interesting build. Playing against a zerg who picked random, he has to go gateway first (a gateway he can't place optimally, he has to place it at the ramp to wall for potential zerglings, so it might get sniped by marauders later), thus limiting his options. For this reason, Day9 for instance chose to announce his race at the beginning of each game, so that he could play against the optimal play for his opponent.
I didn't play SC1. I don't see how 14 years of existence is relevant. You're unnecessarily ad hominem.
On August 25 2012 09:12 jinorazi wrote: still, i think you're taking random too seriously. most people play for fun you know...not knowing your opponent's race is not the end of the world.
But less fun
bcause day9 is nice and he wants to create a practice environemnt for his opponent, many people couldnt careless and they're not obligated to do so. same could be said of any race picker and them not cheesing for their opponent's sake.
a protoss can't ffe against protoss thus limiting his build to gateway variations. and as i've said before, this is no different than vR, thus they're called "4th race" because the openers are determined by what race opponent is and unknown factor adds to that opening variation. and my point is that that limiting of openers as you call it, is not a big deal since different match ups deal with it too and there is plenty of time to react after scouting.
less fun just like some match ups are less fun and that less fun becomes more fun depending on what race your opponent is after scouting.
On August 25 2012 09:20 Catatafish wrote: You can re-read my posts for answers to your questions, but I'll reiterate it briefly.
It's not a fact. There are three races and random lets you pick one of them at random. Different RTS' handle the notion of random differently. Some show the races on the load screen, some don't.
You don't have to open catch-all against random. But if you don't, you are taking a chance that your opponent does not spawn as the race that you are not opening safely against. In any case your build will be (say if you 9 scout, when you otherwise wouldn't have) suboptimal for the match-up.
It harms the game because it removes diversity of play. A protoss against a zerg has a wide variety of openers to choose from, one of which is FFE, arguably the best and certainly an interesting build. Playing against a zerg who picked random, he has to go gateway first (a gateway he can't place optimally, he has to place it at the ramp to wall for potential zerglings, so it might get sniped by marauders later), thus limiting his options. For this reason, Day9 for instance chose to announce his race at the beginning of each game, so that he could play against the optimal play for his opponent.
I didn't play SC1. I don't see how 14 years of existence is relevant. You're unnecessarily ad hominem.
On August 25 2012 09:12 jinorazi wrote: still, i think you're taking random too seriously. most people play for fun you know...not knowing your opponent's race is not the end of the world.
But less fun
I don't think the person choosing random takes into account how much fun you'll have.
a protoss can't ffe against protoss thus limiting his build to gateway variations. and as i've said before, this is no different than vR, thus they're called "4th race" because the openers are determined by what race opponent is and unknown factor adds to that opening variation. and my point is that that limiting of openers as you call it, is not a big deal since different match ups deal with it too.
.
So you're not getting my point. vR if you want to call it that, you are limited to a build that is safe vZ, vT, and vP. Less builds are safe vs. all three races than vs. one of the races. Thus you have more builds to choose from against only one race.
On August 25 2012 09:26 Eventine wrote: I don't think the person choosing random takes into account how much fun you'll have.
Probably not, but how is that relevant to anything?
On August 25 2012 09:20 Catatafish wrote: You can re-read my posts for answers to your questions, but I'll reiterate it briefly.
It's not a fact. There are three races and random lets you pick one of them at random. Different RTS' handle the notion of random differently. Some show the races on the load screen, some don't.
You don't have to open catch-all against random. But if you don't, you are taking a chance that your opponent does not spawn as the race that you are not opening safely against. In any case your build will be (say if you 9 scout, when you otherwise wouldn't have) suboptimal for the match-up.
It harms the game because it removes diversity of play. A protoss against a zerg has a wide variety of openers to choose from, one of which is FFE, arguably the best and certainly an interesting build. Playing against a zerg who picked random, he has to go gateway first (a gateway he can't place optimally, he has to place it at the ramp to wall for potential zerglings, so it might get sniped by marauders later), thus limiting his options. For this reason, Day9 for instance chose to announce his race at the beginning of each game, so that he could play against the optimal play for his opponent.
I didn't play SC1. I don't see how 14 years of existence is relevant. You're unnecessarily ad hominem.
It's a fact in starcraft, get over it.
Threre are a ton of openings in normal builds that take risks and can become a disadvantage - which is why people don't open them and aren't very diverse in their opening. There are a ton of builds you can open vs random. You're just limited on how greedy you can be. XvR isn't the only match-up with this restriction, and it varies by map. Also, 9 scout is optimal for the random match-up. We just went through this just two posts ago. Stop comparing XvR to XvX. Different match-ups. Different openings. Different forms of what may be defined as optimal. Is it optimal to know what race you're playing against 30 seconds sooner? yes.
Nothing dictates protoss has to go gateway first, and you insinuate it's a bad sub-optimal build. Go back and read the previous posts on it. If the best players in the world can pull it off at the highest of levels, <gm players can pull it off vs random players who are statistically worse at ZvP than their protoss opponent. edit: i'm not going to argue on day9's behalf
Lol okay. 14 years is irrelevant because you came out of the woodworks to bitch about it and think you're important enough to see Starcraft's legacy morphed to what you dictate is fun for you. Get over yourself. If it wasn't removed after being in Starcraft for 14 years, it doesn't state any precedence on how widely accepted random as a race is? Or are you willfully choosing to be ignorant?
a protoss can't ffe against protoss thus limiting his build to gateway variations. and as i've said before, this is no different than vR, thus they're called "4th race" because the openers are determined by what race opponent is and unknown factor adds to that opening variation. and my point is that that limiting of openers as you call it, is not a big deal since different match ups deal with it too.
.
So you're not getting my point. vR if you want to call it that, you are limited to a build that is safe vZ, vT, and vP. Less builds are safe vs. all three races than vs. one of the races. Thus you have more builds to choose from against only one race.
On August 25 2012 09:26 Eventine wrote: I don't think the person choosing random takes into account how much fun you'll have.
Probably not, but how is that relevant to anything?
and some protoss openers are safe against some terran's openers and weak against other terran openers. (not openers but builds)
and there's plenty of time to react after 9 scouting a randomer as i pointed out many times, just like any race pickers would after they scout their opponent's build.
High masters random player. The only matchup that is different might be PvZ due to forge FE, but nowadays alot of people are gateway expanding anyways, so it doesn't even matter. Your points are invalid.
On August 25 2012 09:33 rd wrote: It's a fact in starcraft, get over it.
Threre are a ton of openings in normal builds that take risks and can become a disadvantage - which is why people don't open them and aren't very diverse in their opening. There are a ton of builds you can open vs random. You're just limited on how greedy you can be. XvR isn't the only match-up with this restriction, and it varies by map. Also, 9 scout is optimal for the random match-up. We just went through this just two posts ago. Stop comparing XvR to XvX. Different match-ups. Different openings. Different forms of what may be defined as optimal. Is it optimal to know what race you're playing against 30 seconds sooner? yes.
Nothing dictates protoss has to go gateway first, and you insinuate it's a bad sub-optimal build. Go back and read the previous posts on it. If the best players in the world can pull it off at the highest of levels, <gm players can pull it off vs random players who are statistically worse at ZvP than their protoss opponent. edit: i'm not going to argue on day9's behalf
Lol okay. 14 years is irrelevant because you came out of the woodworks to bitch about it and think you're important enough to see Starcraft's legacy morphed to what you dictate is fun for you. Get over yourself. If it wasn't removed after being in Starcraft for 14 years, it doesn't state any precedence on how widely accepted random as a race is? Or are you willfully choosing to be ignorant?
I really don't understand what you're getting upset about. It's been there for 14 years, I don't like it, I'm arguing why, what's the problem? Because it is widely accepted I can't be allowed to disagree with it? I'm not bitching, I don't need to get over anything and I'm not willfully ignorant.
On August 25 2012 09:33 rd wrote: It's a fact in starcraft, get over it.
Threre are a ton of openings in normal builds that take risks and can become a disadvantage - which is why people don't open them and aren't very diverse in their opening. There are a ton of builds you can open vs random. You're just limited on how greedy you can be. XvR isn't the only match-up with this restriction, and it varies by map. Also, 9 scout is optimal for the random match-up. We just went through this just two posts ago. Stop comparing XvR to XvX. Different match-ups. Different openings. Different forms of what may be defined as optimal. Is it optimal to know what race you're playing against 30 seconds sooner? yes.
Nothing dictates protoss has to go gateway first, and you insinuate it's a bad sub-optimal build. Go back and read the previous posts on it. If the best players in the world can pull it off at the highest of levels, <gm players can pull it off vs random players who are statistically worse at ZvP than their protoss opponent. edit: i'm not going to argue on day9's behalf
Lol okay. 14 years is irrelevant because you came out of the woodworks to bitch about it and think you're important enough to see Starcraft's legacy morphed to what you dictate is fun for you. Get over yourself. If it wasn't removed after being in Starcraft for 14 years, it doesn't state any precedence on how widely accepted random as a race is? Or are you willfully choosing to be ignorant?
I really don't understand what you're getting upset about. It's been there for 14 years, I don't like it, I'm arguing why, what's the problem? Because it is widely accepted I can't be allowed to disagree with it? I'm not bitching, I don't need to get over anything and I'm not willfully ignorant.
You're wasting my time. You ask why random should have it's race hidden. I tell you among several reasons it's been that way since SC1; 14 years. You then tell me 14 years is irrelevant, as if to presume the silent approval of it's existence was worth no merit in an argument for why it's actually fine the way it is, which it has been, surprisingly, for more than a dozen years. It reeks of arrogance and self-entitlement.
I feel like XvR is awesome and refreshing. It adds a level of complexity to the game. People need to stop QQing and grow up. This feels like someone complaining about cheese. If someone can play 3 races better than you can play 1, deal with it.
XERtirips, I think you fail to understand that RvX is a valid part of the game, introducing 18 matchups subtly different from the standard 9.
Random is the theoretically most powerful race option, stunted by human limitations to be the weakest. But don't think that RvX has to exactly follow standard gameplay from the other matchups. It is its own game much like TvZ is separate from PvP, only less so.
Blizzard should enable the possibility of open random(Show your race to the opponent at the start of the game)
Ta-da, problem fixed :/ I don't get why this isn't implemented...
By the way wouldn't it be cool to have a ladder account shared between 3 pros of different races? They'd play random, have 1 guy do the split and make workers at the start but during it they'd let the person who mains that race play as it etc.
I'd be interested in how much higher an account like this could rank in comparison to a normal account played by 1 person
On August 25 2012 15:41 Shikyo wrote: Blizzard should enable the possibility of open random(Show your race to the opponent at the start of the game)
Ta-da, problem fixed :/ I don't get why this isn't implemented...
By the way wouldn't it be cool to have a ladder account shared between 3 pros of different races? They'd play random, have 1 guy do the split and make workers at the start but during it they'd let the person who mains that race play as it etc.
I'd be interested in how much higher an account like this could rank in comparison to a normal account played by 1 person
i dont think it'll matter in ladder setting. if you've seen jaedong vs flash in b.net attack while using their off race, they were still pretty fcking good. i think its safe to assume most pros know how to use all race(maybe less so for sc2 since its younger)
On August 25 2012 09:39 Misacampo wrote: High masters random player. The only matchup that is different might be PvZ due to forge FE, but nowadays alot of people are gateway expanding anyways, so it doesn't even matter. Your points are invalid.
You're a pretty bad "high masters" player, then. Gateway expand is getting more popular, yes, but there's absolutely nothing as safe and reliable as FFE. That's like taking gasless FE away from Terran. Furthermore, there are many other builds that are simply disallowed in such a situation: Nexus First, 3 Hatch before gas (hell, even Hatch first is forbidden because your opponent could 10pool you), and probably more that haven't come to mind. To make matters worse, what if it's a four-player map like Antiga and you scout your opponent last? You have to start directing your build at that point (how many gas, how many Nexus chronos, additional gates/tech/expand) without having ever scouted your opponent, even if you sent out a ~9scout. This is very rapidly approaching the point of the unreasonable.
Random players, like yourself, simply aren't playing the same game as the rest of us. You're playing a coin-flippy game that poorly demonstrates skill. So I won't respect you until you start playing random properly: by rolling a die before queueing up each game to choose your race.
On August 25 2012 09:39 Misacampo wrote: High masters random player. The only matchup that is different might be PvZ due to forge FE, but nowadays alot of people are gateway expanding anyways, so it doesn't even matter. Your points are invalid.
You're a pretty bad "high masters" player, then. Gateway expand is getting more popular, yes, but there's absolutely nothing as safe and reliable as FFE. That's like taking gasless FE away from Terran. Furthermore, there are many other builds that are simply disallowed in such a situation: Nexus First, 3 Hatch before gas (hell, even Hatch first is forbidden because your opponent could 10pool you), and probably more that haven't come to mind. To make matters worse, what if it's a four-player map like Antiga and you scout your opponent last? You have to start directing your build at that point (how many gas, how many Nexus chronos, additional gates/tech/expand) without having ever scouted your opponent, even if you sent out a ~9scout. This is very rapidly approaching the point of the unreasonable.
Random players, like yourself, simply aren't playing the same game as the rest of us. You're playing a coin-flippy game that poorly demonstrates skill. So I won't respect you until you start playing random properly: by rolling a die before queueing up each game to choose your race.
By your logic, 15 hatch isn't viable in ZvZ either because you might get 10 pooled...
I won't respect you until you get your head out of your ass and stop complaining about random.
On August 25 2012 09:39 Misacampo wrote: High masters random player. The only matchup that is different might be PvZ due to forge FE, but nowadays alot of people are gateway expanding anyways, so it doesn't even matter. Your points are invalid.
You're a pretty bad "high masters" player, then. Gateway expand is getting more popular, yes, but there's absolutely nothing as safe and reliable as FFE. That's like taking gasless FE away from Terran. Furthermore, there are many other builds that are simply disallowed in such a situation: Nexus First, 3 Hatch before gas (hell, even Hatch first is forbidden because your opponent could 10pool you), and probably more that haven't come to mind. To make matters worse, what if it's a four-player map like Antiga and you scout your opponent last? You have to start directing your build at that point (how many gas, how many Nexus chronos, additional gates/tech/expand) without having ever scouted your opponent, even if you sent out a ~9scout. This is very rapidly approaching the point of the unreasonable.
Random players, like yourself, simply aren't playing the same game as the rest of us. You're playing a coin-flippy game that poorly demonstrates skill. So I won't respect you until you start playing random properly: by rolling a die before queueing up each game to choose your race.
By your logic, 15 hatch isn't viable in ZvZ either because you might get 10 pooled...
I won't respect you until you get your head out of your ass and stop complaining about random.
It's very different there, for one simple reason: it's a calculated risk. Those are okay to have now and again. But against random, there ARE no safe build orders. The extreme example is PvR on TDA, where you have to immediately choose between going for FFE (autoloss versus P and T), going for 1gate expand (autoloss versus P and Z, although if you get lucky and scout them early you MIGHT be able to transition), and going for 4gate (suboptimal versus T and Z, but it's still the best build available and thus the one I use in such a situation). There is no right answer. It's luck. Players can't fall back on a safe, strong build order that can handle over 90% of what the meta throws at it provided that they outplay their opponent. The lack of such builds is what makes random so bullshit. A superior player can't simply fall back on skill to win them games, like what Taeja does. They have to buy into the entire gambling bullshit too. That's just dumb.
Random forever. When I die to a strong build, it becomes my build.
And may the zergs weep great tears, for their ZvZ is now mine as I lose!
I take a second glance at the title because it seems to be saying, "5 Reasons why You Suck at Starcraft!" God, you missed a great chance at some clever satire! How the class of ladderers having more fun than a human being should be allowed to have (or is even healthy) are pelted at all sides by a cabal of sniveling whiners! But instead, you present such a worthy target to be made fun of instead!
I have nothing against random, because I play random too, just not like picking random.
Like I choose terran for 10 games in a row then switch, etc.
But the reason why I disagree a ton with playing random is;
Learning defections.
Oh you disagree with it, do you? And then, from this disagreement you propose to lecture us on why us poor losers are handicapping our own learning development! Disagree, indeed! You, sir, see limitations on development but, no, you do not nor cannot know why every person picks random so your explanation of disagreement is laughable.
I'll say this in another way for you TL;DR's out there - You will have disagreements with somebody that says, "I play random for I wish to learn all 3 races." Then you fall flat on your face arguing with the statement that was not brought up but you vigorously oppose. Go buy a cat because you disagree with a dog, for that makes about as much sense.
And in conclusion, well ... what the rest of people in this thread have already said. Thank you.
Random players, like yourself, simply aren't playing the same game as the rest of us. You're playing a coin-flippy game that poorly demonstrates skill. So I won't respect you until you start playing random properly: by rolling a die before queueing up each game to choose your race.
I don't think having to obtain an item outside of what is provided is "playing the game properly". In fact, I think clicking the button marked "random" then playing according to the race the game has chosen is the proper way to play random.
I do agree with the jist of this thread when it comes to players who want to better their 1v1 skills, but I think the problem of this thread and a similar thread some time ago, is that they assume everyone wants to do this. There was a very similar reaction to this thread about why you shouldn't cheese to get better at the game, where people were doing the same thing as picking random - sacrificing the standard metagame, but in this case to take a gamble at a quick win.
The main point here is that some people are okay with not playing the standard meta-game when it gives them a better or easier chance to win, and so want the advantage of choosing random, or the quick thrill of cheesing. So in ignoring this, the OP has implied that it isn't the 'right' way to play, which is really what people are unhappy about. But I don't think the OP is necessarily entirely to blame for thinking this, as in general the SC2 philosophy is to constantly try to improve and not resort to cheese or all-ins every game. Instead to me this shows that there needs to be a greater awareness, and sensitivity, to how people choose to play the game, and how much variety there is in your audience when writing threads on TL. That way we can avoid troublesome threads like these from reoccurring, and good points such as how random approaches the game through a different meta-game won't be obscured by a few unfortunate presumptions about the audience.
i like threads like "why I do not this etc" but please why YOU is never good ebcause no one liked to be said what he has to do i am super confident in playing random and not like someone wanna tell me why i have to do something or why i dont
let's be honest with each other, most of us only play random when we want to entertain ourselves. so while it's a great choice for lower leagues players, i can't belive there's actually someone higher than diamond (arbitrary line where you start taking sc2 more seriously) that will try to argue playing random is good for you. it's not, it's completely different game, and when you win it's fine, sc2 is a coinflippy game, but when you loose you loose horribly. i did a lot of random in the past but i absolutely hated getting outclassed in a straight up matches, so i stopped abusing the advantage it gave me.
bottom line is, random players know why they choose random, let's not pretend otherwise please
EDIT: what this guy said above me! exactly that! when i wanna troll people, offensive gg, 6pool all day, i play random.
On August 25 2012 20:49 snailz wrote: let's be honest with each other, most of us only play random when we want to entertain ourselves. so while it's a great choice for lower leagues players, i can't belive there's actually someone higher than diamond (arbitrary line where you start taking sc2 more seriously) that will try to argue playing random is good for you. it's not, it's completely different game, and when you win it's fine, sc2 is a coinflippy game, but when you loose you loose horribly. i did a lot of random in the past but i absolutely hated getting outclassed in a straight up matches, so i stopped abusing the advantage it gave me.
bottom line is, random players know why they choose random, let's not pretend otherwise please
EDIT: what this guy said above me! exactly that! when i wanna troll people, offensive gg, 6pool all day, i play random.
no need to generalize random players...thats one of the big issues here. i play random because i enjoy all races and i dont depend on metagame or builds or some outside shenanigans and only trust on my mechanics that transitioned from long period of bw. for the sake of keeping the whiners quiet and deterring those who actually looks forward to unknown factor, blizzard should change it to "Random Zerg, Random Protoss, Random Terran."
On August 25 2012 09:39 Misacampo wrote: High masters random player. The only matchup that is different might be PvZ due to forge FE, but nowadays alot of people are gateway expanding anyways, so it doesn't even matter. Your points are invalid.
You're a pretty bad "high masters" player, then. Gateway expand is getting more popular, yes, but there's absolutely nothing as safe and reliable as FFE. That's like taking gasless FE away from Terran. Furthermore, there are many other builds that are simply disallowed in such a situation: Nexus First, 3 Hatch before gas (hell, even Hatch first is forbidden because your opponent could 10pool you), and probably more that haven't come to mind. To make matters worse, what if it's a four-player map like Antiga and you scout your opponent last? You have to start directing your build at that point (how many gas, how many Nexus chronos, additional gates/tech/expand) without having ever scouted your opponent, even if you sent out a ~9scout. This is very rapidly approaching the point of the unreasonable.
Random players, like yourself, simply aren't playing the same game as the rest of us. You're playing a coin-flippy game that poorly demonstrates skill. So I won't respect you until you start playing random properly: by rolling a die before queueing up each game to choose your race.
Basically you're mad because you have 1 build per matchup and don't know how to adapt when a random unknown variable comes up.
Does anyone else here only play Random because they think that it's the most fun? I agree that as far as improving your skills it might not be the best but then again I personally only play SC for fun so improving skills isn't really a priority.
On August 25 2012 21:38 IntoTheheart wrote: Does anyone else here only play Random because they think that it's the most fun? I agree that as far as improving your skills it might not be the best but then again I personally only play SC for fun so improving skills isn't really a priority.
In any strategy game I have ever played I always picked random, I like being exited to see what I am playing. I just don't plan my games as much as others do. Improving is nice but when I play I do it for fun, not to execute some strategies I saw in a tournament. I am anyway way to undisciplined to stick to a build order. Ingame I am always random, why not at picking the race? Some people are just not very competitive people and don't care about such things.
When I play random, i don't cheese with it, i just don't want to pick a race before starting a game, i like the change.
When my opponent asks me what's my race i tell him "random", i'm at a disadvantage when i pick random and the only advantage i have is my opponent not knowing was race do i have. So i can do whatever i want until he scoots me, i don't see why i would tell him my race to prevent him from scouting me. Like fast expanding to have a better economy because i know he'll play safe.
Some people play random to cheese, some don't. I see no reason why you would remove the random option. Too bad you're losing to them everytime, maybe you should practice more instead of making pointless threads with false assumptions.
On August 25 2012 21:50 Nyarly wrote: When I play random, i don't cheese with it, i just don't want to pick a race before starting a game, i like the change.
When my opponent asks me what's my race i tell him "random", i'm at a disadvantage when i pick random and the only advantage i have is my opponent not knowing was race do i have. So i can do whatever i want until he scoots me, i don't see why i would tell him my race to prevent him from scouting me. Like fast expanding to have a better economy because i know he'll play safe.
Some people play random to cheese, some don't. I see no reason why you would remove the random option. Too bad you're losing to them everytime, maybe you should practice more instead of making pointless threads with false assumptions.
you're a joke.
i'm 1v1 masters player on EU and i almost entirely don't hit random players any more. so maybe they should practice more ^^
Playing vs random sucks if u take sc2 very seriously, since u dont learn much from losing or beating them (personal experience only), whenever I won felt like free-wins, whenever i lost i was annoyed cuz mostly they were BO losses or funky cheeses. There are like 2-3 random player, who gave me good games, both Finnish i think. I think their IDs were Truerandom and Ready. But then again, i met few random players
That being said, i also messed around with playing Random, though on alt acc. I always told my race, but few believed me. I also learnt, that most people (not just me) are really annoyed playing against random cuz many R players are just trolls who do some abusive cheese every game. (respect for the exceptions).
BUT, far be it from me to tell someone how to play the game. If someone has fun with random, who's to say that they're playing the game wrong. 99% of the players are not at competitive level, so the primary objective of the game is to entertain the player.
why would i want to play 1/3th of a game i payed 60 bucks? i cant afford 3 copies, and i will play random until blizzard gives me 3 separate ladders with separate ranking and matchmaking for all 3 races!
very much depends on the mmr. in masters league, a protoss 2-base allin is probably the most "solid" build you'll ever see from a random player. although they're a very few exceptions. below that, random players actually play pretty standard for most of the time from my experience. doesn't matter too much though since the percentage of random players drops tremendously starting from master.
If you play random you play for fun, not to be good at the game. I don't find being high masters as zerg any fun, so I just switched to random, game is much more playable for me now.
hi, I am a protoss player trying really hard to practice so I can go pro.
I have this problem with random players (and players that does not follow the standard metagame.) Random zergs are the worst as then I cannot play standard and that completely ruins my practice, but I dont want to just leave as then I will lose points on the ladder.
So please stop playing random as that will not be good practice for you nor me, or if you are playing random I want to you say your race so that my practice nor yours will be ruined. Because noone can play standard vs random so you will not get to practice standard play.
But I really think you should pick a race because you cant go pro unless you practice really hard with standard play(for mechanics) and there are no pro random players clearly showing that its impossible to play random and go pro.
/trolling disabled
on a more serious note: 1.just learn to play gateway first vs zerg, there are many ways to make it work, if you need help with that ask in the protoss help me thread. 2. not everyone wants to go pro 3. not everyone likes the standard metagame nor wants to even play it. 4. who the #%& do you think you are to tell others how they should play the game?
from a EU perspective, this causes little distress. Once your mmr is decent, the only random players you'll meet are FRAER (who always announces his race) and Kas when he has a bad losing streak and is frustrated or w/e.
On August 25 2012 09:39 Misacampo wrote: High masters random player. The only matchup that is different might be PvZ due to forge FE, but nowadays alot of people are gateway expanding anyways, so it doesn't even matter. Your points are invalid.
You're a pretty bad "high masters" player, then. Gateway expand is getting more popular, yes, but there's absolutely nothing as safe and reliable as FFE. That's like taking gasless FE away from Terran. Furthermore, there are many other builds that are simply disallowed in such a situation: Nexus First, 3 Hatch before gas (hell, even Hatch first is forbidden because your opponent could 10pool you), and probably more that haven't come to mind. To make matters worse, what if it's a four-player map like Antiga and you scout your opponent last? You have to start directing your build at that point (how many gas, how many Nexus chronos, additional gates/tech/expand) without having ever scouted your opponent, even if you sent out a ~9scout. This is very rapidly approaching the point of the unreasonable.
Random players, like yourself, simply aren't playing the same game as the rest of us. You're playing a coin-flippy game that poorly demonstrates skill. So I won't respect you until you start playing random properly: by rolling a die before queueing up each game to choose your race.
Basically you're mad because you have 1 build per matchup and don't know how to adapt when a random unknown variable comes up.
You can hold 10 pool with hatch first....
Learn new builds instead of qqing.
Random variables have no place in a strategy game. That's why there are no random effects in the game. I'm sorry, but saying that people are whining because of a random variable in an rts is a perfectly valid point in my view.
These opinions about random are s o ignorant and wrong. Stop making threads like this, please. Nobody good at the game is actually complaining about random. Notice how it's only low caliber players trying to weigh in on this supposed issue. And only lately. Like oh no we suddenly have a problem that random exists. This is an unfunny joke from bad players who have way too much confidence in their ability to judge and consider these things fully, even in the face of overwhelming feedback from superior players throughout these threads which lets them know how dead wrong they are. That makes you an ignorant dogmatist who doesn't listen. This kind of stuff belongs on the Bnet forums, not TL.
I'm a high masters player with a lot of other masters friends and we all think that this anti-random thinking is a laughing matter. We've laughed about it on skype.
On August 25 2012 09:39 Misacampo wrote: High masters random player. The only matchup that is different might be PvZ due to forge FE, but nowadays alot of people are gateway expanding anyways, so it doesn't even matter. Your points are invalid.
You're a pretty bad "high masters" player, then. Gateway expand is getting more popular, yes, but there's absolutely nothing as safe and reliable as FFE. That's like taking gasless FE away from Terran. Furthermore, there are many other builds that are simply disallowed in such a situation: Nexus First, 3 Hatch before gas (hell, even Hatch first is forbidden because your opponent could 10pool you), and probably more that haven't come to mind. To make matters worse, what if it's a four-player map like Antiga and you scout your opponent last? You have to start directing your build at that point (how many gas, how many Nexus chronos, additional gates/tech/expand) without having ever scouted your opponent, even if you sent out a ~9scout. This is very rapidly approaching the point of the unreasonable.
Random players, like yourself, simply aren't playing the same game as the rest of us. You're playing a coin-flippy game that poorly demonstrates skill. So I won't respect you until you start playing random properly: by rolling a die before queueing up each game to choose your race.
Basically you're mad because you have 1 build per matchup and don't know how to adapt when a random unknown variable comes up.
You can hold 10 pool with hatch first....
Learn new builds instead of qqing.
Random variables have no place in a strategy game. That's why there are no random effects in the game. I'm sorry, but saying that people are whining because of a random variable in an rts is a perfectly valid point in my view.
It's not that random of a variable. It's not like your opponent's randomness is hidden from you until you scout him. You know he's random. Play safer than normal. If you're worried about random cheese, don't go for a greedy opening.
Losing one game on ladder to random cheese isn't the end of the world. Sure, it's a little bit of a bummer, but just queue up again and keep it in mind if you play that person again ever.
That's pretty much all you need to do. Shrug it off and keep rolling.
And if you're playing someone in random on an actual tournament level (though I haven't seen that in a long time), do a little research, see what's going on.
Edit: I agree with this:
On August 26 2012 01:56 Lumi wrote: These opinions about random are s o ignorant and wrong. Stop making threads like this, please. Nobody good at the game is actually complaining about random. Notice how it's only low caliber players trying to weigh in on this supposed issue. And only lately. Like oh no we suddenly have a problem that random exists. This is an unfunny joke
On August 25 2012 09:39 Misacampo wrote: High masters random player. The only matchup that is different might be PvZ due to forge FE, but nowadays alot of people are gateway expanding anyways, so it doesn't even matter. Your points are invalid.
You're a pretty bad "high masters" player, then. Gateway expand is getting more popular, yes, but there's absolutely nothing as safe and reliable as FFE. That's like taking gasless FE away from Terran. Furthermore, there are many other builds that are simply disallowed in such a situation: Nexus First, 3 Hatch before gas (hell, even Hatch first is forbidden because your opponent could 10pool you), and probably more that haven't come to mind. To make matters worse, what if it's a four-player map like Antiga and you scout your opponent last? You have to start directing your build at that point (how many gas, how many Nexus chronos, additional gates/tech/expand) without having ever scouted your opponent, even if you sent out a ~9scout. This is very rapidly approaching the point of the unreasonable.
Random players, like yourself, simply aren't playing the same game as the rest of us. You're playing a coin-flippy game that poorly demonstrates skill. So I won't respect you until you start playing random properly: by rolling a die before queueing up each game to choose your race.
Basically you're mad because you have 1 build per matchup and don't know how to adapt when a random unknown variable comes up.
You can hold 10 pool with hatch first....
Learn new builds instead of qqing.
Random variables have no place in a strategy game. That's why there are no random effects in the game. I'm sorry, but saying that people are whining because of a random variable in an rts is a perfectly valid point in my view.
I get your point but because Starcraft is a game of incomplete information and on most maps random spawn positions there is always a random element to it.
On August 25 2012 09:39 Misacampo wrote: High masters random player. The only matchup that is different might be PvZ due to forge FE, but nowadays alot of people are gateway expanding anyways, so it doesn't even matter. Your points are invalid.
You're a pretty bad "high masters" player, then. Gateway expand is getting more popular, yes, but there's absolutely nothing as safe and reliable as FFE. That's like taking gasless FE away from Terran. Furthermore, there are many other builds that are simply disallowed in such a situation: Nexus First, 3 Hatch before gas (hell, even Hatch first is forbidden because your opponent could 10pool you), and probably more that haven't come to mind. To make matters worse, what if it's a four-player map like Antiga and you scout your opponent last? You have to start directing your build at that point (how many gas, how many Nexus chronos, additional gates/tech/expand) without having ever scouted your opponent, even if you sent out a ~9scout. This is very rapidly approaching the point of the unreasonable.
Random players, like yourself, simply aren't playing the same game as the rest of us. You're playing a coin-flippy game that poorly demonstrates skill. So I won't respect you until you start playing random properly: by rolling a die before queueing up each game to choose your race.
Basically you're mad because you have 1 build per matchup and don't know how to adapt when a random unknown variable comes up.
You can hold 10 pool with hatch first....
Learn new builds instead of qqing.
Random variables have no place in a strategy game. That's why there are no random effects in the game. I'm sorry, but saying that people are whining because of a random variable in an rts is a perfectly valid point in my view.
Lol, like spawning positions? Like scouting a proxy 2 rax or not? I don't know how you could not consider that random variables. (note: not completely random, a random variable with a(n un)certain distribution, dependent on actions taken)
To throw that out there, in continuing fire there is a random delay between shots for stalkers. Seems to have been implemented to asynchronize it for aesthetic purposes.
On August 25 2012 09:39 Misacampo wrote: High masters random player. The only matchup that is different might be PvZ due to forge FE, but nowadays alot of people are gateway expanding anyways, so it doesn't even matter. Your points are invalid.
You're a pretty bad "high masters" player, then. Gateway expand is getting more popular, yes, but there's absolutely nothing as safe and reliable as FFE. That's like taking gasless FE away from Terran. Furthermore, there are many other builds that are simply disallowed in such a situation: Nexus First, 3 Hatch before gas (hell, even Hatch first is forbidden because your opponent could 10pool you), and probably more that haven't come to mind. To make matters worse, what if it's a four-player map like Antiga and you scout your opponent last? You have to start directing your build at that point (how many gas, how many Nexus chronos, additional gates/tech/expand) without having ever scouted your opponent, even if you sent out a ~9scout. This is very rapidly approaching the point of the unreasonable.
Random players, like yourself, simply aren't playing the same game as the rest of us. You're playing a coin-flippy game that poorly demonstrates skill. So I won't respect you until you start playing random properly: by rolling a die before queueing up each game to choose your race.
Basically you're mad because you have 1 build per matchup and don't know how to adapt when a random unknown variable comes up.
You can hold 10 pool with hatch first....
Learn new builds instead of qqing.
Random variables have no place in a strategy game. That's why there are no random effects in the game. I'm sorry, but saying that people are whining because of a random variable in an rts is a perfectly valid point in my view.
Lol, like spawning positions? Like scouting a proxy 2 rax or not? I don't know how you could not consider that random variables. (note: not completely random, a random variable with a(n un)certain distribution, dependent on actions taken)
No. The player has control over where he scouts and whether he sees a proxy threat. There is no element of random to it. Random variables mean effects that are random, i.e (for example) an emp now removes a maximum of 200 shields to the group it hits. You have no control over which units get the shields removed - it could remove zealot shields which would be against what you intended for example an immortal to lose the shields. That is the type of randomness that I was talking about. It also applies to the non-random player, as it's something they have no control over and are not in a position to know what's going on because of random variables out of their control. They are not able to perform builds they want to, because of the random factor.
I don't know why random players think telling their race solves any problem. There is no reason why I should believe that the race you say you are is the race you got.
Tao, your opinion is unchanging despite endless feedback that addresses all of your 'points'. I think you're just a troll at this point. You don't listen to people or utilize reason when people actually make it clear to you that there is nothing going wrong. You're pretty definitely a troll, the more I think about it. Gonna report you.
On August 25 2012 09:39 Misacampo wrote: High masters random player. The only matchup that is different might be PvZ due to forge FE, but nowadays alot of people are gateway expanding anyways, so it doesn't even matter. Your points are invalid.
You're a pretty bad "high masters" player, then. Gateway expand is getting more popular, yes, but there's absolutely nothing as safe and reliable as FFE. That's like taking gasless FE away from Terran. Furthermore, there are many other builds that are simply disallowed in such a situation: Nexus First, 3 Hatch before gas (hell, even Hatch first is forbidden because your opponent could 10pool you), and probably more that haven't come to mind. To make matters worse, what if it's a four-player map like Antiga and you scout your opponent last? You have to start directing your build at that point (how many gas, how many Nexus chronos, additional gates/tech/expand) without having ever scouted your opponent, even if you sent out a ~9scout. This is very rapidly approaching the point of the unreasonable.
Random players, like yourself, simply aren't playing the same game as the rest of us. You're playing a coin-flippy game that poorly demonstrates skill. So I won't respect you until you start playing random properly: by rolling a die before queueing up each game to choose your race.
By your logic, 15 hatch isn't viable in ZvZ either because you might get 10 pooled...
I won't respect you until you get your head out of your ass and stop complaining about random.
It's very different there, for one simple reason: it's a calculated risk. Those are okay to have now and again. But against random, there ARE no safe build orders. The extreme example is PvR on TDA, where you have to immediately choose between going for FFE (autoloss versus P and T), going for 1gate expand (autoloss versus P and Z, although if you get lucky and scout them early you MIGHT be able to transition), and going for 4gate (suboptimal versus T and Z, but it's still the best build available and thus the one I use in such a situation). There is no right answer. It's luck. Players can't fall back on a safe, strong build order that can handle over 90% of what the meta throws at it provided that they outplay their opponent. The lack of such builds is what makes random so bullshit. A superior player can't simply fall back on skill to win them games, like what Taeja does. They have to buy into the entire gambling bullshit too. That's just dumb.
The bolded segment is just such bs. Maybe at a pro-level of play, TDA (1 map in the map pool) could add some BO gambling, but at the level of play for you, me, and 99% of people whining in this thread, this is a non-issue. Opening with a gateway and cybercore is not auto-loss against P and Z, if you don't scout them first you'll have to send a second probe scout if you want to do a quick 1-gate expo, but there's a difference between suboptimal and auto-loss if your opponent is bad (read: below pro-level).
I think the problem people have with random is that the hidden race advantage they get seems like a 'gimmick' to people who play standard, in the sense that it is not part of the race's units or abilities, but something completely external that Blizzard decided to give them for playing random. It is almost like starting with an extra 100 minerals, only replace the 100 with whatever advantage you get from having your race hidden. And this also shows a second problem with the advantage, that it depends on the races being played, as others have mentioned this doesn't really affect a Terran anywhere near as much as it does a Protoss. So then it might be the case that Random might not actually be balanced in all three match-ups, and only comes across that way because nobody is good enough at playing Random. If this were true then someone who is very good at both Terran and Zerg like for instance MorroW is, could almost guarantee a win if they get matched against a Protoss as Zerg due to the huge advantage they get in this particular matchup. Of course this is an extreme example, but I think it shows how this 'gimmicky' advantage can be problematic and why some people might disagree with it being in the game.
On August 26 2012 05:34 Lumi wrote: Tao, your opinion is unchanging despite endless feedback that addresses all of your 'points'. I think you're just a troll at this point. You don't listen to people or utilize reason when people actually make it clear to you that there is nothing going wrong. You're pretty definitely a troll, the more I think about it. Gonna report you.
See bolded, its my personal view. You don't have to agree with it, but I respect your opinion. Show some respect and do the same. Just because I disagree with you does not mean I'm a fucking troll. Grow up and learn how be a decent human being.
On August 25 2012 09:39 Misacampo wrote: High masters random player. The only matchup that is different might be PvZ due to forge FE, but nowadays alot of people are gateway expanding anyways, so it doesn't even matter. Your points are invalid.
You're a pretty bad "high masters" player, then. Gateway expand is getting more popular, yes, but there's absolutely nothing as safe and reliable as FFE. That's like taking gasless FE away from Terran. Furthermore, there are many other builds that are simply disallowed in such a situation: Nexus First, 3 Hatch before gas (hell, even Hatch first is forbidden because your opponent could 10pool you), and probably more that haven't come to mind. To make matters worse, what if it's a four-player map like Antiga and you scout your opponent last? You have to start directing your build at that point (how many gas, how many Nexus chronos, additional gates/tech/expand) without having ever scouted your opponent, even if you sent out a ~9scout. This is very rapidly approaching the point of the unreasonable.
Random players, like yourself, simply aren't playing the same game as the rest of us. You're playing a coin-flippy game that poorly demonstrates skill. So I won't respect you until you start playing random properly: by rolling a die before queueing up each game to choose your race.
Basically you're mad because you have 1 build per matchup and don't know how to adapt when a random unknown variable comes up.
You can hold 10 pool with hatch first....
Learn new builds instead of qqing.
Random variables have no place in a strategy game. That's why there are no random effects in the game. I'm sorry, but saying that people are whining because of a random variable in an rts is a perfectly valid point in my view.
Lol, like spawning positions? Like scouting a proxy 2 rax or not? I don't know how you could not consider that random variables. (note: not completely random, a random variable with a(n un)certain distribution, dependent on actions taken)
No. The player has control over where he scouts and whether he sees a proxy threat. There is no element of random to it. Random variables mean effects that are random, i.e (for example) an emp now removes a maximum of 200 shields to the group it hits. You have no control over which units get the shields removed - it could remove zealot shields which would be against what you intended for example an immortal to lose the shields. That is the type of randomness that I was talking about. It also applies to the non-random player, as it's something they have no control over and are not in a position to know what's going on because of random variables out of their control. They are not able to perform builds they want to, because of the random factor.
That's my opinion, don't flame me for it. Kthxbai
Did you read the part of my post between brackets? Unless you scout the entire map in an instant, there is a random element to scouting, despite having control about scout paths. The whole point of people picking certain overlord spots or taking certain paths while scouting is to maximise the likelihood of scouting something valuable. As for your example, it states exactly the same 'type' of randomness (whatever that may be). In your example, i can choose to emp only single units/small groups of units, to maximise the likelihood of the intended shield drain as opposed to unintended.
You feel like you opponent has a significant advantage because his race is random. You do have control over how much of an advantage he has. It's not really hard to think of things. Like double scout on 4 player maps (single scout makes advantage bigger, because possible later race scout), scout earlier (single scout makes advantage bigger, because possible later race scout), devise an atypical build against random (turning his choice against him). Besides, you begin with an advantage against a random player, you need to practice less match-ups. If the advantage is so great, why don't i see random progamers? Especially people like drg and mvp who are the only ones with win rates above 60 % with all 3 races. (source: gsl season 3 drg vs ryung game 1; don't know if still true.)
Aside discussions about which build order against random is best, i honestly think there isn't much more to say about this.
On August 25 2012 09:39 Misacampo wrote: High masters random player. The only matchup that is different might be PvZ due to forge FE, but nowadays alot of people are gateway expanding anyways, so it doesn't even matter. Your points are invalid.
You're a pretty bad "high masters" player, then. Gateway expand is getting more popular, yes, but there's absolutely nothing as safe and reliable as FFE. That's like taking gasless FE away from Terran. Furthermore, there are many other builds that are simply disallowed in such a situation: Nexus First, 3 Hatch before gas (hell, even Hatch first is forbidden because your opponent could 10pool you), and probably more that haven't come to mind. To make matters worse, what if it's a four-player map like Antiga and you scout your opponent last? You have to start directing your build at that point (how many gas, how many Nexus chronos, additional gates/tech/expand) without having ever scouted your opponent, even if you sent out a ~9scout. This is very rapidly approaching the point of the unreasonable.
Random players, like yourself, simply aren't playing the same game as the rest of us. You're playing a coin-flippy game that poorly demonstrates skill. So I won't respect you until you start playing random properly: by rolling a die before queueing up each game to choose your race.
Basically you're mad because you have 1 build per matchup and don't know how to adapt when a random unknown variable comes up.
You can hold 10 pool with hatch first....
Learn new builds instead of qqing.
Random variables have no place in a strategy game. That's why there are no random effects in the game. I'm sorry, but saying that people are whining because of a random variable in an rts is a perfectly valid point in my view.
Lol, like spawning positions? Like scouting a proxy 2 rax or not? I don't know how you could not consider that random variables. (note: not completely random, a random variable with a(n un)certain distribution, dependent on actions taken)
No. The player has control over where he scouts and whether he sees a proxy threat. There is no element of random to it. Random variables mean effects that are random, i.e (for example) an emp now removes a maximum of 200 shields to the group it hits. You have no control over which units get the shields removed - it could remove zealot shields which would be against what you intended for example an immortal to lose the shields. That is the type of randomness that I was talking about. It also applies to the non-random player, as it's something they have no control over and are not in a position to know what's going on because of random variables out of their control. They are not able to perform builds they want to, because of the random factor.
That's my opinion, don't flame me for it. Kthxbai
The fuck. You have enough control to scout their race. You have no control over what they build. It's entirely random if in a pvp he proxy 2 gates because you simply don't know until you scout. Wanted to go straight robo? Can't now, he proxy 2 gated you and you have to play into what he wants. He ruined all your fun. Anyone who proxy 2 gates is ruining the game.
You ask not to be flamed and post this crap, as if the ladder is supposed to be something you can control and bends to what you'd like to play against. It's delusional.
People think that their opinions which happen to be opinion described as facts are the only valid opinions. You think the random advantage of being an unknown race is okay. Yes. I respect that. I don't agree with it because of the reasons above, random variables should not be in an rts game. Spawning randomly is okay because it happens for both players to spawn randomly. I don't see what is so hard to understand.
On August 26 2012 06:15 _Search_ wrote: Just played against a random on Condemned Ridge.
I didn't get to know what race I was playing against until the 5 minute mark.
You can lose to a 6 pool before the 5 minute mark.
It turned out to be a nexus first Protoss, meaning the correct response was the exact opposite to a 6 pool.
What a joke this game is.
I'm sorry but if you're not scouting at all for 5 minutes, you're going to be losing a lot more games regardless of random.
Condemned Ridge is one of the bigger maps, and he might have found scouted his opponent's spawn last, but 5 minutes does seem a bit long.
I started playing Random and I can see how it rules out or discourages certain builds by the opponent. But at the same time every race has a safer option. And constantly fluctuating between 9 different matchups and 3 different sets of hotkeys has its own disadvantages for the Random player.
On August 26 2012 06:15 _Search_ wrote: Just played against a random on Condemned Ridge.
I didn't get to know what race I was playing against until the 5 minute mark.
You can lose to a 6 pool before the 5 minute mark.
It turned out to be a nexus first Protoss, meaning the correct response was the exact opposite to a 6 pool.
What a joke this game is.
I'm sorry but if you're not scouting at all for 5 minutes, you're going to be losing a lot more games regardless of random.
Condemned Ridge is one of the bigger maps, and he might have found scouted his opponent's spawn last, but 5 minutes does seem a bit long.
I started playing Random and I can see how it rules out or discourages certain builds by the opponent. But at the same time every race has a safer option. And constantly fluctuating between 9 different matchups and 3 different sets of hotkeys has its own disadvantages for the Random player.
But, why should that affect me, you had the option to choose one race, like I might have done. You voluntarily decided to play random, fully aware of the inherent disadvantages.
this is getting pretty sad, how can you still be so incredibly mad about random people. get on with it and start playing! let it go theres worse things in life you could spend your energy on.
I play random too (low masters). I usually don't tell my race, unless i have a "good" day. Anyways, using the data from sc2ranks only 4.5% are random players in master, and around 7% in diamond league. I wonder, how you can hit so many random players....
These threads keep popping out of nowhere, just because someone lost to a random player, who -most likely- was better anyways than them.
On August 26 2012 05:30 aHaTsc wrote: I don't know why random players think telling their race solves any problem. There is no reason why I should believe that the race you say you are is the race you got.
If you aren't satisfied with free information from your opponent (who plays 6 more matchups than you,) go ahead and download a maphack. That seems to be the best way for these sour children to feel like they are on the same level.
9 matchups vs 3, 1-2 minutes of not knowing your opponents race. Oh no! Instant loss!
On August 26 2012 07:57 Xulatis wrote: I play random too (low masters). I usually don't tell my race, unless i have a "good" day. Anyways, using the data from sc2ranks only 4.5% are random players in master, and around 7% in diamond league. I wonder, how you can hit so many random players....
These threads keep popping out of nowhere, just because someone lost to a random player, who -most likely- was better anyways than them.
Everyone wants an excuse for why they lost.
"my opponent was random, I started at a disadvantage!" Well I guess the best rebuttal for this argument would be to ask these crybabies to play random for a season or two themselves. If they don't hang themselves in the process of realizing they are shit at SC2, then they will just revert to their own race and shut their fucking mouths.
On August 26 2012 06:15 _Search_ wrote: Just played against a random on Condemned Ridge.
I didn't get to know what race I was playing against until the 5 minute mark.
You can lose to a 6 pool before the 5 minute mark.
It turned out to be a nexus first Protoss, meaning the correct response was the exact opposite to a 6 pool.
What a joke this game is.
I'm sorry but if you're not scouting at all for 5 minutes, you're going to be losing a lot more games regardless of random.
Condemned Ridge is one of the bigger maps, and he might have found scouted his opponent's spawn last, but 5 minutes does seem a bit long.
I started playing Random and I can see how it rules out or discourages certain builds by the opponent. But at the same time every race has a safer option. And constantly fluctuating between 9 different matchups and 3 different sets of hotkeys has its own disadvantages for the Random player.
But, why should that affect me, you had the option to choose one race, like I might have done. You voluntarily decided to play random, fully aware of the inherent disadvantages.
It's not your choice nor the opponent's problem as to how he voluntarily chooses to affect you. Get over it, jeez. I could pretty much say the same thing: My opponent voluntarily chose Terran, even though he could have picked another race. Why should it affect me? If random bothers you that much go check out the practice partner thread and find players around your level to practice with. The ladder wasn't created for anyone's convenience or fun. Only the sole purpose of determining who can win the most.
Strength does not come from winning. Your struggles develop your strengths. When you go through hardships and decide not to surrender, that is strength.
People claim that opening gate core in things such as PvZ (when intially) PvR does not lose you a game, which it doesn't.
The whole point is that people don't get anything from changing their game against random players, other than getting practice against random players and safe openings vs them (which I do not care at all about). The player playing random, if for instance zerg, also does not get the appropriate practice for his race as the entire beginning of the game can potentially be something that would never happen if he just selected zerg at the race screen.
In my personal experiences I just leave games at the start vs random, they usually aren't worth the time. And yes, a random player telling you his race doesn't mean anything because they could just be lying.
On August 26 2012 09:13 shouri wrote: People claim that opening gate core in things such as PvZ (when intially) PvR does not lose you a game, which it doesn't.
The whole point is that people don't get anything from changing their game against random players, other than getting practice against random players and safe openings vs them (which I do not care at all about). The player playing random, if for instance zerg, also does not get the appropriate practice for his race as the entire beginning of the game can potentially be something that would never happen if he just selected zerg at the race screen.
In my personal experiences I just leave games at the start vs random, they usually aren't worth the time. And yes, a random player telling you his race doesn't mean anything because they could just be lying.
but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is.
It matters that its distinguishable for the player that a P player would go 1gate FE instead of FFE if he was zerg, because THAT is HIS standard early game, in a PvR matchup. Sure it means fuckall to you and you think its not standard at all, but to the random player its reversed, he dont give no shit about PvZ standard match up, he doesnt have to play it.
X vs. Random is a matchup in its own right, with its own early game (and consequences of that early game). Trouble is, so few people play Random (especially at a high level) that's it's not really a matchup worth practicing. Which makes random rather awkward.
Respect for folks who can play all races, but I do understand why it's annoying to play against.
I disagree with the op stating that you're playing a false metagame when playing against opponents who don't know your race from the start. You're just creating your own metagame and that isn't even that different from real games.
On August 26 2012 09:13 shouri wrote: People claim that opening gate core in things such as PvZ (when intially) PvR does not lose you a game, which it doesn't.
The whole point is that people don't get anything from changing their game against random players, other than getting practice against random players and safe openings vs them (which I do not care at all about). The player playing random, if for instance zerg, also does not get the appropriate practice for his race as the entire beginning of the game can potentially be something that would never happen if he just selected zerg at the race screen.
In my personal experiences I just leave games at the start vs random, they usually aren't worth the time. And yes, a random player telling you his race doesn't mean anything because they could just be lying.
but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is.
It matters that its distinguishable for the player that a P player would go 1gate FE instead of FFE if he was zerg, because THAT is HIS standard early game, in a PvR matchup. Sure it means fuckall to you and you think its not standard at all, but to the random player its reversed, he dont give no shit about PvZ standard match up, he doesnt have to play it.
Why no understand ?? I am confused.
There's nothing I'm not understanding.
"but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is."
That's my point entirely, most people don't care about PvR. The original poster was stating that the random player isn't learning as much about the individual races as he could if he just randomly picked a race and played 10 games with the same race and then repeating the same process for another race. I don't really follow day9 but I believe he stated he does something along these lines a while ago.
On August 26 2012 09:13 shouri wrote: People claim that opening gate core in things such as PvZ (when intially) PvR does not lose you a game, which it doesn't.
The whole point is that people don't get anything from changing their game against random players, other than getting practice against random players and safe openings vs them (which I do not care at all about). The player playing random, if for instance zerg, also does not get the appropriate practice for his race as the entire beginning of the game can potentially be something that would never happen if he just selected zerg at the race screen.
In my personal experiences I just leave games at the start vs random, they usually aren't worth the time. And yes, a random player telling you his race doesn't mean anything because they could just be lying.
but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is.
It matters that its distinguishable for the player that a P player would go 1gate FE instead of FFE if he was zerg, because THAT is HIS standard early game, in a PvR matchup. Sure it means fuckall to you and you think its not standard at all, but to the random player its reversed, he dont give no shit about PvZ standard match up, he doesnt have to play it.
Why no understand ?? I am confused.
There's nothing I'm not understanding.
"but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is."
That's my point entirely, most people don't care about PvR. The original poster was stating that the random player isn't learning as much about the individual races as he could if he just randomly picked a race and played 10 games with the same race and then repeating the same process for another race. I don't really follow day9 but I believe he stated he does something along these lines a while ago.
And what if he just wants fun with random and doesn't want to know ahead what race he plays. You know if the race selection was (here it comes) random. This whole thread is saying to people they can't play the way they want which is so silly.
On August 26 2012 09:13 shouri wrote: People claim that opening gate core in things such as PvZ (when intially) PvR does not lose you a game, which it doesn't.
The whole point is that people don't get anything from changing their game against random players, other than getting practice against random players and safe openings vs them (which I do not care at all about). The player playing random, if for instance zerg, also does not get the appropriate practice for his race as the entire beginning of the game can potentially be something that would never happen if he just selected zerg at the race screen.
In my personal experiences I just leave games at the start vs random, they usually aren't worth the time. And yes, a random player telling you his race doesn't mean anything because they could just be lying.
but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is.
It matters that its distinguishable for the player that a P player would go 1gate FE instead of FFE if he was zerg, because THAT is HIS standard early game, in a PvR matchup. Sure it means fuckall to you and you think its not standard at all, but to the random player its reversed, he dont give no shit about PvZ standard match up, he doesnt have to play it.
Why no understand ?? I am confused.
There's nothing I'm not understanding.
"but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is."
That's my point entirely, most people don't care about PvR. The original poster was stating that the random player isn't learning as much about the individual races as he could if he just randomly picked a race and played 10 games with the same race and then repeating the same process for another race. I don't really follow day9 but I believe he stated he does something along these lines a while ago.
As the game is designed, Random plays like its own race option with its own metagame. Just as much as you don't want to practice PvR, the Random player has no care for learning the metagame of standard ZvP. Of course, maybe you should want to practice PvR, because you will eventually run into a PvR. The random player will never have a standard ZvP by the design of the game.
If you feel bad about it then you are free to join the ranks of us random players. Everyone has that option.
On August 26 2012 09:13 shouri wrote: People claim that opening gate core in things such as PvZ (when intially) PvR does not lose you a game, which it doesn't.
The whole point is that people don't get anything from changing their game against random players, other than getting practice against random players and safe openings vs them (which I do not care at all about). The player playing random, if for instance zerg, also does not get the appropriate practice for his race as the entire beginning of the game can potentially be something that would never happen if he just selected zerg at the race screen.
In my personal experiences I just leave games at the start vs random, they usually aren't worth the time. And yes, a random player telling you his race doesn't mean anything because they could just be lying.
but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is.
It matters that its distinguishable for the player that a P player would go 1gate FE instead of FFE if he was zerg, because THAT is HIS standard early game, in a PvR matchup. Sure it means fuckall to you and you think its not standard at all, but to the random player its reversed, he dont give no shit about PvZ standard match up, he doesnt have to play it.
Why no understand ?? I am confused.
There's nothing I'm not understanding.
"but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is."
That's my point entirely, most people don't care about PvR. The original poster was stating that the random player isn't learning as much about the individual races as he could if he just randomly picked a race and played 10 games with the same race and then repeating the same process for another race. I don't really follow day9 but I believe he stated he does something along these lines a while ago.
And what if he just wants fun with random and doesn't want to know ahead what race he plays. You know if the race selection was (here it comes) random. This whole thread is saying to people they can't play the way they want which is so silly.
Incredibly silly. 20 pages of people crying about a minute of not knowing their opponent's race, which is a viable and normal pick for players to choose.
If you don't like playing vs random, you might as well quit now. You're the same kind of person to complain about a new race imbalance or anything other patch related in order to draw attention away from obvious deficits in personal gameplay, and give yourself something to blame. Just quit now or shut up guys.
On August 26 2012 09:13 shouri wrote: People claim that opening gate core in things such as PvZ (when intially) PvR does not lose you a game, which it doesn't.
The whole point is that people don't get anything from changing their game against random players, other than getting practice against random players and safe openings vs them (which I do not care at all about). The player playing random, if for instance zerg, also does not get the appropriate practice for his race as the entire beginning of the game can potentially be something that would never happen if he just selected zerg at the race screen.
In my personal experiences I just leave games at the start vs random, they usually aren't worth the time. And yes, a random player telling you his race doesn't mean anything because they could just be lying.
but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is.
It matters that its distinguishable for the player that a P player would go 1gate FE instead of FFE if he was zerg, because THAT is HIS standard early game, in a PvR matchup. Sure it means fuckall to you and you think its not standard at all, but to the random player its reversed, he dont give no shit about PvZ standard match up, he doesnt have to play it.
Why no understand ?? I am confused.
There's nothing I'm not understanding.
"but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is."
That's my point entirely, most people don't care about PvR. The original poster was stating that the random player isn't learning as much about the individual races as he could if he just randomly picked a race and played 10 games with the same race and then repeating the same process for another race. I don't really follow day9 but I believe he stated he does something along these lines a while ago.
As the game is designed, Random plays like its own race option with its own metagame. Just as much as you don't want to practice PvR, the Random player has no care for learning the metagame of standard ZvP. Of course, maybe you should want to practice PvR, because you will eventually run into a PvR. The random player will never have a standard ZvP by the design of the game.
If you feel bad about it then you are free to join the ranks of us random players. Everyone has that option.
I personally don't really care, I see a random player about one in like 50-100 games and I will just leave most of the time. I understand picking random for fun, but I just don't think its a practical way to get better at the game which is just my personal opinion. I only have a problem really with the people who play random and say that they have to learn so many more matchups than you and boast about it as like its some amazing feat.
I don't think anyone is forcing anyone not to play random nor do I think that is possible, but some random players seem to misunderstand the other side as well so I was trying to clarify.
On August 26 2012 09:13 shouri wrote: People claim that opening gate core in things such as PvZ (when intially) PvR does not lose you a game, which it doesn't.
The whole point is that people don't get anything from changing their game against random players, other than getting practice against random players and safe openings vs them (which I do not care at all about). The player playing random, if for instance zerg, also does not get the appropriate practice for his race as the entire beginning of the game can potentially be something that would never happen if he just selected zerg at the race screen.
In my personal experiences I just leave games at the start vs random, they usually aren't worth the time. And yes, a random player telling you his race doesn't mean anything because they could just be lying.
but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is.
It matters that its distinguishable for the player that a P player would go 1gate FE instead of FFE if he was zerg, because THAT is HIS standard early game, in a PvR matchup. Sure it means fuckall to you and you think its not standard at all, but to the random player its reversed, he dont give no shit about PvZ standard match up, he doesnt have to play it.
Why no understand ?? I am confused.
There's nothing I'm not understanding.
"but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is."
That's my point entirely, most people don't care about PvR. The original poster was stating that the random player isn't learning as much about the individual races as he could if he just randomly picked a race and played 10 games with the same race and then repeating the same process for another race. I don't really follow day9 but I believe he stated he does something along these lines a while ago.
And what if he just wants fun with random and doesn't want to know ahead what race he plays. You know if the race selection was (here it comes) random. This whole thread is saying to people they can't play the way they want which is so silly.
Incredibly silly. 20 pages of people crying about a minute of not knowing their opponent's race, which is a viable and normal pick for players to choose.
If you don't like playing vs random, you might as well quit now. You're the same kind of person to complain about a new race imbalance or anything other patch related in order to draw attention away from obvious deficits in personal gameplay, and give yourself something to blame. Just quit now or shut up guys.
A thing I find obnoxious about random is that the delay in discovering the opponent's race depends on map style; on a two-player map it's barely a thing, whereas on a four-player map you could get shafted. That's true in vs. X games as well, but not to the same degree.
On August 26 2012 09:13 shouri wrote: People claim that opening gate core in things such as PvZ (when intially) PvR does not lose you a game, which it doesn't.
The whole point is that people don't get anything from changing their game against random players, other than getting practice against random players and safe openings vs them (which I do not care at all about). The player playing random, if for instance zerg, also does not get the appropriate practice for his race as the entire beginning of the game can potentially be something that would never happen if he just selected zerg at the race screen.
In my personal experiences I just leave games at the start vs random, they usually aren't worth the time. And yes, a random player telling you his race doesn't mean anything because they could just be lying.
but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is.
It matters that its distinguishable for the player that a P player would go 1gate FE instead of FFE if he was zerg, because THAT is HIS standard early game, in a PvR matchup. Sure it means fuckall to you and you think its not standard at all, but to the random player its reversed, he dont give no shit about PvZ standard match up, he doesnt have to play it.
Why no understand ?? I am confused.
There's nothing I'm not understanding.
"but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is."
That's my point entirely, most people don't care about PvR. The original poster was stating that the random player isn't learning as much about the individual races as he could if he just randomly picked a race and played 10 games with the same race and then repeating the same process for another race. I don't really follow day9 but I believe he stated he does something along these lines a while ago.
And what if he just wants fun with random and doesn't want to know ahead what race he plays. You know if the race selection was (here it comes) random. This whole thread is saying to people they can't play the way they want which is so silly.
Incredibly silly. 20 pages of people crying about a minute of not knowing their opponent's race, which is a viable and normal pick for players to choose.
If you don't like playing vs random, you might as well quit now. You're the same kind of person to complain about a new race imbalance or anything other patch related in order to draw attention away from obvious deficits in personal gameplay, and give yourself something to blame. Just quit now or shut up guys.
A thing I find obnoxious about random is that the delay in discovering the opponent's race depends on map style; on a two-player map it's barely a thing, whereas on a four-player map you could get shafted. That's true in vs. X games as well, but not to the same degree.
That's true, but the fact remains that maps and map positions are also selected at random. Chance IS a part of the game, and that's just a face that people need to learn to live with. As much as they want to cry, the fact remains that better players than them will take advantage of these facts.
On August 26 2012 09:13 shouri wrote: People claim that opening gate core in things such as PvZ (when intially) PvR does not lose you a game, which it doesn't.
The whole point is that people don't get anything from changing their game against random players, other than getting practice against random players and safe openings vs them (which I do not care at all about). The player playing random, if for instance zerg, also does not get the appropriate practice for his race as the entire beginning of the game can potentially be something that would never happen if he just selected zerg at the race screen.
In my personal experiences I just leave games at the start vs random, they usually aren't worth the time. And yes, a random player telling you his race doesn't mean anything because they could just be lying.
but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is.
It matters that its distinguishable for the player that a P player would go 1gate FE instead of FFE if he was zerg, because THAT is HIS standard early game, in a PvR matchup. Sure it means fuckall to you and you think its not standard at all, but to the random player its reversed, he dont give no shit about PvZ standard match up, he doesnt have to play it.
Why no understand ?? I am confused.
There's nothing I'm not understanding.
"but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is."
That's my point entirely, most people don't care about PvR. The original poster was stating that the random player isn't learning as much about the individual races as he could if he just randomly picked a race and played 10 games with the same race and then repeating the same process for another race. I don't really follow day9 but I believe he stated he does something along these lines a while ago.
As the game is designed, Random plays like its own race option with its own metagame. Just as much as you don't want to practice PvR, the Random player has no care for learning the metagame of standard ZvP. Of course, maybe you should want to practice PvR, because you will eventually run into a PvR. The random player will never have a standard ZvP by the design of the game.
If you feel bad about it then you are free to join the ranks of us random players. Everyone has that option.
I personally don't really care, I see a random player about one in like 50-100 games and I will just leave most of the time. I understand picking random for fun, but I just don't think its a practical way to get better at the game which is just my personal opinion. I only have a problem really with the people who play random and say that they have to learn so many more matchups than you and boast about it as like its some amazing feat.
I don't think anyone is forcing anyone not to play random nor do I think that is possible, but some random players seem to misunderstand the other side as well so I was trying to clarify.
Do you think these players are getting quality practice when people just leave the game half of the time out of dislike of playing against a certain race (or, rather, an unknown race.)
Random gives a huge insight into the entire game of SC, it's enjoyable in every single matchup if you do enjoy SC, tournaments become much more fun to watch as you can more easily root for any/every race, and every patch is a nerf/buff, every single time, so patches don't really matter as much. It's just the random players who get to giggle at everyone crying about patch notes every single time.
There are distinct advantages to playing Random, as well as obvious disadvantages. Hey, this looks like pretty much every other race, now, doesn't it?
On August 26 2012 09:13 shouri wrote: People claim that opening gate core in things such as PvZ (when intially) PvR does not lose you a game, which it doesn't.
The whole point is that people don't get anything from changing their game against random players, other than getting practice against random players and safe openings vs them (which I do not care at all about). The player playing random, if for instance zerg, also does not get the appropriate practice for his race as the entire beginning of the game can potentially be something that would never happen if he just selected zerg at the race screen.
In my personal experiences I just leave games at the start vs random, they usually aren't worth the time. And yes, a random player telling you his race doesn't mean anything because they could just be lying.
but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is.
It matters that its distinguishable for the player that a P player would go 1gate FE instead of FFE if he was zerg, because THAT is HIS standard early game, in a PvR matchup. Sure it means fuckall to you and you think its not standard at all, but to the random player its reversed, he dont give no shit about PvZ standard match up, he doesnt have to play it.
Why no understand ?? I am confused.
There's nothing I'm not understanding.
"but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is."
That's my point entirely, most people don't care about PvR. The original poster was stating that the random player isn't learning as much about the individual races as he could if he just randomly picked a race and played 10 games with the same race and then repeating the same process for another race. I don't really follow day9 but I believe he stated he does something along these lines a while ago.
Then that's their issue if they don't care about PvR. It doesn't mean random should be removed. It means if they want practice playing against the three races they should find a practice partner. Ladder doesn't cater to any kind of play or race.
On August 25 2012 20:33 theBALLS wrote: I always play protoss. Yesterday I accidentally clicked random, spawned as zerg. 6pooled and won.
This is why I agree with you.
lol you could have done the same after picking zerg. small sample size, no? or did i miss the sarcasm.
If he did the same thing after picking zerg, his opponent would have been playing as if he was playing against a zerg(ie wall off, ffe, not hatch first), instead of gambling and hoping that his opponent didn't end up a zerg.
This thread makes me cringe. I've played thousands of games as random on ladder, and I no longer play random, and I've never disliked playing against a random. You're saying that your entire "MIDGAME" is f'ed because you aren't told the race when the game starts? LOL. scout. Oh no, I have to make a pylon at my wallin instead of FFEing! That is the end of your build being "messed up" because you can scout after pylon anyway. Oh no, I'm zerg and I'm playing against a random, guess i can still go 15 hatch, or 15 pool if I feel like I can't hold a cannon rush. Oh no, I'm terran and I'm playing against a random, guess I'll make a 14 second depot at wallin in case of early pool instead of going CC after 1st marine. So far, the deviations in my build consist of: having to scout earlier, having to scout earlier, and having to scout earlier. the end.
i dont know why you posted this... theres a reason people choose random, to get an edge in being random. if your opponent knew wat race you were he has options but because he doesnt he has no choice but to play safe and not be greedy to have an early edge.
On August 26 2012 12:57 joebang wrote: i dont know why you posted this... theres a reason people choose random, to get an edge in being random. if your opponent knew wat race you were he has options but because he doesnt he has no choice but to play safe and not be greedy to have an early edge.
because hes making excuses for being scared to play against random
On August 25 2012 20:33 theBALLS wrote: I always play protoss. Yesterday I accidentally clicked random, spawned as zerg. 6pooled and won.
This is why I agree with you.
lol you could have done the same after picking zerg. small sample size, no? or did i miss the sarcasm.
If he did the same thing after picking zerg, his opponent would have been playing as if he was playing against a zerg(ie wall off, ffe, not hatch first), instead of gambling and hoping that his opponent didn't end up a zerg.
you ALWAYS wall against a random if you're toss or terran. chances are you scout before cyber goes down in that case i dont wall off anymore. protoss can proxy gateway, zerg can 6pool, terran can proxy rax. i have no idea why random cheese is no different than any other. be prepared for it and blaming random is very narrow way to look at it.
On August 25 2012 20:33 theBALLS wrote: I always play protoss. Yesterday I accidentally clicked random, spawned as zerg. 6pooled and won.
This is why I agree with you.
lol you could have done the same after picking zerg. small sample size, no? or did i miss the sarcasm.
If he did the same thing after picking zerg, his opponent would have been playing as if he was playing against a zerg(ie wall off, ffe, not hatch first), instead of gambling and hoping that his opponent didn't end up a zerg.
you ALWAYS wall against a random if you're toss or terran. chances are you scout before cyber goes down in that case i dont wall off anymore. protoss can proxy gateway, zerg can 6pool, terran can proxy rax. i have no idea why random cheese is no different than any other. be prepared for it and blaming random is very narrow way to look at it.
You can defend against early pools as Protoss by building your Gateway near your Nexus. It's actually easier, because your Zealot doesn't have to stray too far from your mineral line to defend your buildings.
i do sim city sometimes as terran but i prefer not to with protoss. good zerg player's lings running inside my base before stalker gets really annoying XD
On August 26 2012 15:11 Belial88 wrote: I drone scout on 10 against Random (just like I do in ZvZ). I will see if they are Toss in time to go 15 pool, or if they are T/Z to go hatch first.
Not that hard. You are behind 1 worker at the 6:00 mark for doing this.
Do you just go 15 pool if you don't scout them in time to know whether its safe to 15 hatch or not?
Playing random has a 10x bigger disadvantage in that you have to know how to play all 3 races. A slight advantage against some early game openings is nothing compared to this disadvantage. Almost everyone would drop a league if they started playing random.
forums are dumb and anyone that pretends to participate should realize that maybe only 1 personw ill ever care what you say. thats why im a lurker for life, but when i see a thread as dumb as this, ill be sure to respond. for the rest of u, it's pretty sad that you read 20 pages of shit.
On August 26 2012 17:44 ScienceNotBusiness wrote: forums are dumb and anyone that pretends to participate should realize that maybe only 1 personw ill ever care what you say. thats why im a lurker for life, but when i see a thread as dumb as this, ill be sure to respond. for the rest of u, it's pretty sad that you read 20 pages of shit.
Should I even justify this with a response lol? Oh wait, guess I already did so hell why not. Yeah most people really don't care what you have to say, but who cares? We're just throwin shit out there, besides you say we should eb said for reading 20 pages of this, when you're the EXACT same way, hell how do you know we're not just doing what your doing?
On August 26 2012 17:44 ScienceNotBusiness wrote: forums are dumb and anyone that pretends to participate should realize that maybe only 1 personw ill ever care what you say. thats why im a lurker for life, but when i see a thread as dumb as this, ill be sure to respond. for the rest of u, it's pretty sad that you read 20 pages of shit.
That means you respond in threads than you did not read ? I guess that's a way to go
Wasn't there a pro who played in GSTL a long time ago (i have Gumiho o rGuineaPig in my head). I remembered that Slayers sent Boxer to dispose him at the time.
So you see OP ^^ There's random at a lot of level (not currently that's true). And BW pro were oblig to play random when playing 22 when they were 2zerg (I remember this but i'm not so sure).
I like to play Terran and Zerg. But i want the surprise at the stard.
Terran => Yeah i'm gonna loose but will be fun (not a balance whine. I'm just terrible at terran) Zerg => Ok that will not be difficult. (main race) (A lot of time this sentence turns out i was wrong :p=) Protoss => Fuck damnit how do you play those things (P hater here:p)
I play random because I can't decide between Zerg and Protoss. I hate PvP so I don't like playing only protoss as there's gonna be a lot more PvP.
I only rush-cheese if it's a Bo3 or higher custom 1v1 because I like to mindfk with my opponents. My ladder games are always multi-base timing pushes.
Sadly, Protoss is the only race I dare experiment with on ladder (wonky builds). My macro is terrible for T and Z if I don't go the standard composition for each MU.
Players are taking too much for granted if they think they can always get away with not preparing for early pressure regardless of race. The random player's anonymous advantage disappears as soon as they scout you or you scout them. Some people seem to think a random Protoss or w/e is magically stronger than a regular Protoss.
I for one don't change my openings at all because my opponent is a certain race. The same macro-defensive opening works for everything. It's a matter of whether I scout it or not. *darn sneaky proxies >
Everyone should decide for themselves what they want to play, If you do like all the races and don't want to play only a single one all the time the feature of picking random could actualy be quite good.. Tho there is builds you do if you are up against a random player on the ladder.. I usualy scout at 12 as Zerg to see what im against.. And also don't play a too risky build behind it.
On August 26 2012 12:57 joebang wrote: i dont know why you posted this... theres a reason people choose random, to get an edge in being random. if your opponent knew wat race you were he has options but because he doesnt he has no choice but to play safe and not be greedy to have an early edge.
A player is burdening himself by playing 3 races so he can get a [not so great] 2 minute advantage?
People who play random are indecisive about what race they want to play. They dont have time to nail down any hardcore strategies, so they need an extra advantage. They cant win straight up because they're not good enough, so they resort to all-ins.
Obviously they are not serious players, so they shouldnt be treated as such. So, they will continue on 10 pooling, cannon rushing, or 2 rax/marine all-ining because its all they know how to do.
On August 28 2012 15:40 sfbaydave wrote: People who play random are indecisive about what race they want to play. They dont have time to nail down any hardcore strategies, so they need an extra advantage. They cant win straight up because they're not good enough, so they resort to all-ins.
Obviously they are not serious players, so they shouldnt be treated as such. So, they will continue on 10 pooling, cannon rushing, or 2 rax/marine all-ining because its all they know how to do.
So what you're trying to say is: "I can't believe someone would be way better than me with all 3 races". Please stop with this anti-Random BS. Some random players cheese, some don't. It's the same as players of any specific race. I got to Masters as Random without cheesing, and since then have switched over to playing each race on a separate account (I think it's better practice to play the same race over and over again, and this way they can each have their own MMR). Guess what? I got to Masters really easily as each race individually, playing "straight up".
On August 28 2012 15:40 sfbaydave wrote: People who play random are indecisive about what race they want to play. They dont have time to nail down any hardcore strategies, so they need an extra advantage. They cant win straight up because they're not good enough, so they resort to all-ins.
Obviously they are not serious players, so they shouldnt be treated as such. So, they will continue on 10 pooling, cannon rushing, or 2 rax/marine all-ining because its all they know how to do.
I'm glad you know the random players better than they know themselves. I guess I'll make up a likewise blanket statement about people who go on a forum to bitch about random cheese and try to over-compensate for their own incompetence by convincing themselves of stupid shit such as this every time they lose to a random.
I would like to say is I've seen more random player on ladder in the last few days then ever before. I can't say for sure if this thread is actually contributing to people wanting to play random more or there are other factors involved, but this thread almost certainly is not reducing the number of random player on ladder.
Some will share race if asked politely, but not all. I would like to add that they don't really seem to cheese anymore than non-random players, but their play certainly feels different. Not necesserily worse mechanically, but maybe more sloppy builds / less refined play.
I do find it overall quite impressive. To play random at masters level isn't an easy feat in my eyes.
On August 28 2012 15:40 sfbaydave wrote: People who play random are indecisive about what race they want to play. They dont have time to nail down any hardcore strategies, so they need an extra advantage. They cant win straight up because they're not good enough, so they resort to all-ins.
Obviously they are not serious players, so they shouldnt be treated as such. So, they will continue on 10 pooling, cannon rushing, or 2 rax/marine all-ining because its all they know how to do.
LOL "serious players" Do tell me, how "serious" do you take SC2? Enough to give up everything to pursue the career of a pro-gamer? If not, then I advise you to shut up and get out of your little bubble because you're just playing for fun like everybody else. Grow up.
Don't worry, the KeSPA players are going to get ALOT better over the next year or so, the skill gap is going to increase, making the BW players for favourable
On August 29 2012 13:54 imEnex wrote: Don't worry, the KeSPA players are going to get ALOT better over the next year or so, the skill gap is going to increase, making the BW players for favourable
On August 28 2012 15:40 sfbaydave wrote: People who play random are indecisive about what race they want to play. They dont have time to nail down any hardcore strategies, so they need an extra advantage. They cant win straight up because they're not good enough, so they resort to all-ins.
Obviously they are not serious players, so they shouldnt be treated as such. So, they will continue on 10 pooling, cannon rushing, or 2 rax/marine all-ining because its all they know how to do.
Nice misconception, actually random players get cheesed more than they actually cheese. Also, if a random player cheeses, he/she is effectively using the advantage given to him/her by playing random which is something I think everyone can agree on is a good idea. However, cheesing as a random is actually quite hard since there exists that mis conception that Randoms are "only" cheesers so everyone plays Extra defensive.
Please don't pretend to know what you're talking about, I all-in, cheese, and play standard and play non-standard and I'm a random player. Isolating randoms as majority cheesers is just ignorant.
On August 28 2012 15:40 sfbaydave wrote: People who play random are indecisive about what race they want to play. They dont have time to nail down any hardcore strategies, so they need an extra advantage. They cant win straight up because they're not good enough, so they resort to all-ins.
Obviously they are not serious players, so they shouldnt be treated as such. So, they will continue on 10 pooling, cannon rushing, or 2 rax/marine all-ining because its all they know how to do.
LOL "serious players" Do tell me, how "serious" do you take SC2? Enough to give up everything to pursue the career of a pro-gamer? If not, then I advise you to shut up and get out of your little bubble because you're just playing for fun like everybody else. Grow up.
Quite a straw man, you don't need to be a pro gamer to take gaming seriously, if that were the case then the SC2 Strategy sub-forum wouldn't exist since 99% of the people posting there are not pros.
On August 30 2012 00:23 LuckyFool wrote: Most tournaments dont allow random. I always just allin random players on ladder, even if they're a "macro" player.
EPT
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