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On August 26 2012 07:24 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 07:11 Monkeyballs25 wrote:On August 26 2012 06:29 RoarMan wrote:On August 26 2012 06:15 _Search_ wrote:
Just played against a random on Condemned Ridge.
I didn't get to know what race I was playing against until the 5 minute mark.
You can lose to a 6 pool before the 5 minute mark.
It turned out to be a nexus first Protoss, meaning the correct response was the exact opposite to a 6 pool.
What a joke this game is. I'm sorry but if you're not scouting at all for 5 minutes, you're going to be losing a lot more games regardless of random. Condemned Ridge is one of the bigger maps, and he might have found scouted his opponent's spawn last, but 5 minutes does seem a bit long. I started playing Random and I can see how it rules out or discourages certain builds by the opponent. But at the same time every race has a safer option. And constantly fluctuating between 9 different matchups and 3 different sets of hotkeys has its own disadvantages for the Random player. But, why should that affect me, you had the option to choose one race, like I might have done. You voluntarily decided to play random, fully aware of the inherent disadvantages.
It's not your choice nor the opponent's problem as to how he voluntarily chooses to affect you. Get over it, jeez. I could pretty much say the same thing: My opponent voluntarily chose Terran, even though he could have picked another race. Why should it affect me? If random bothers you that much go check out the practice partner thread and find players around your level to practice with. The ladder wasn't created for anyone's convenience or fun. Only the sole purpose of determining who can win the most.
(and that someone is not random)
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Strength does not come from winning. Your struggles develop your strengths. When you go through hardships and decide not to surrender, that is strength.
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People claim that opening gate core in things such as PvZ (when intially) PvR does not lose you a game, which it doesn't.
The whole point is that people don't get anything from changing their game against random players, other than getting practice against random players and safe openings vs them (which I do not care at all about). The player playing random, if for instance zerg, also does not get the appropriate practice for his race as the entire beginning of the game can potentially be something that would never happen if he just selected zerg at the race screen.
In my personal experiences I just leave games at the start vs random, they usually aren't worth the time. And yes, a random player telling you his race doesn't mean anything because they could just be lying.
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On August 26 2012 09:13 shouri wrote:
People claim that opening gate core in things such as PvZ (when intially) PvR does not lose you a game, which it doesn't.
The whole point is that people don't get anything from changing their game against random players, other than getting practice against random players and safe openings vs them (which I do not care at all about). The player playing random, if for instance zerg, also does not get the appropriate practice for his race as the entire beginning of the game can potentially be something that would never happen if he just selected zerg at the race screen.
In my personal experiences I just leave games at the start vs random, they usually aren't worth the time. And yes, a random player telling you his race doesn't mean anything because they could just be lying.
but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is.
It matters that its distinguishable for the player that a P player would go 1gate FE instead of FFE if he was zerg, because THAT is HIS standard early game, in a PvR matchup. Sure it means fuckall to you and you think its not standard at all, but to the random player its reversed, he dont give no shit about PvZ standard match up, he doesnt have to play it.
Why no understand ?? I am confused.
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X vs. Random is a matchup in its own right, with its own early game (and consequences of that early game). Trouble is, so few people play Random (especially at a high level) that's it's not really a matchup worth practicing. Which makes random rather awkward.
Respect for folks who can play all races, but I do understand why it's annoying to play against.
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I disagree with the op stating that you're playing a false metagame when playing against opponents who don't know your race from the start. You're just creating your own metagame and that isn't even that different from real games.
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On August 26 2012 09:18 Capped wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 09:13 shouri wrote:
People claim that opening gate core in things such as PvZ (when intially) PvR does not lose you a game, which it doesn't.
The whole point is that people don't get anything from changing their game against random players, other than getting practice against random players and safe openings vs them (which I do not care at all about). The player playing random, if for instance zerg, also does not get the appropriate practice for his race as the entire beginning of the game can potentially be something that would never happen if he just selected zerg at the race screen.
In my personal experiences I just leave games at the start vs random, they usually aren't worth the time. And yes, a random player telling you his race doesn't mean anything because they could just be lying. but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is. It matters that its distinguishable for the player that a P player would go 1gate FE instead of FFE if he was zerg, because THAT is HIS standard early game, in a PvR matchup. Sure it means fuckall to you and you think its not standard at all, but to the random player its reversed, he dont give no shit about PvZ standard match up, he doesnt have to play it. Why no understand ?? I am confused.
There's nothing I'm not understanding.
"but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is."
That's my point entirely, most people don't care about PvR. The original poster was stating that the random player isn't learning as much about the individual races as he could if he just randomly picked a race and played 10 games with the same race and then repeating the same process for another race. I don't really follow day9 but I believe he stated he does something along these lines a while ago.
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This thread makes me angry. People can play whatever they want. Seems like OP is mad he keeps losing to random on ladder.
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On August 26 2012 09:44 shouri wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 09:18 Capped wrote:On August 26 2012 09:13 shouri wrote:
People claim that opening gate core in things such as PvZ (when intially) PvR does not lose you a game, which it doesn't.
The whole point is that people don't get anything from changing their game against random players, other than getting practice against random players and safe openings vs them (which I do not care at all about). The player playing random, if for instance zerg, also does not get the appropriate practice for his race as the entire beginning of the game can potentially be something that would never happen if he just selected zerg at the race screen.
In my personal experiences I just leave games at the start vs random, they usually aren't worth the time. And yes, a random player telling you his race doesn't mean anything because they could just be lying. but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is. It matters that its distinguishable for the player that a P player would go 1gate FE instead of FFE if he was zerg, because THAT is HIS standard early game, in a PvR matchup. Sure it means fuckall to you and you think its not standard at all, but to the random player its reversed, he dont give no shit about PvZ standard match up, he doesnt have to play it. Why no understand ?? I am confused. There's nothing I'm not understanding. "but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is." That's my point entirely, most people don't care about PvR. The original poster was stating that the random player isn't learning as much about the individual races as he could if he just randomly picked a race and played 10 games with the same race and then repeating the same process for another race. I don't really follow day9 but I believe he stated he does something along these lines a while ago.
And what if he just wants fun with random and doesn't want to know ahead what race he plays. You know if the race selection was (here it comes) random.
This whole thread is saying to people they can't play the way they want which is so silly.
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On August 26 2012 09:44 shouri wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 09:18 Capped wrote:On August 26 2012 09:13 shouri wrote:
People claim that opening gate core in things such as PvZ (when intially) PvR does not lose you a game, which it doesn't.
The whole point is that people don't get anything from changing their game against random players, other than getting practice against random players and safe openings vs them (which I do not care at all about). The player playing random, if for instance zerg, also does not get the appropriate practice for his race as the entire beginning of the game can potentially be something that would never happen if he just selected zerg at the race screen.
In my personal experiences I just leave games at the start vs random, they usually aren't worth the time. And yes, a random player telling you his race doesn't mean anything because they could just be lying. but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is. It matters that its distinguishable for the player that a P player would go 1gate FE instead of FFE if he was zerg, because THAT is HIS standard early game, in a PvR matchup. Sure it means fuckall to you and you think its not standard at all, but to the random player its reversed, he dont give no shit about PvZ standard match up, he doesnt have to play it. Why no understand ?? I am confused. There's nothing I'm not understanding. "but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is." That's my point entirely, most people don't care about PvR. The original poster was stating that the random player isn't learning as much about the individual races as he could if he just randomly picked a race and played 10 games with the same race and then repeating the same process for another race. I don't really follow day9 but I believe he stated he does something along these lines a while ago.
As the game is designed, Random plays like its own race option with its own metagame. Just as much as you don't want to practice PvR, the Random player has no care for learning the metagame of standard ZvP. Of course, maybe you should want to practice PvR, because you will eventually run into a PvR. The random player will never have a standard ZvP by the design of the game.
If you feel bad about it then you are free to join the ranks of us random players. Everyone has that option.
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On August 26 2012 09:55 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 09:44 shouri wrote:On August 26 2012 09:18 Capped wrote:On August 26 2012 09:13 shouri wrote:
People claim that opening gate core in things such as PvZ (when intially) PvR does not lose you a game, which it doesn't.
The whole point is that people don't get anything from changing their game against random players, other than getting practice against random players and safe openings vs them (which I do not care at all about). The player playing random, if for instance zerg, also does not get the appropriate practice for his race as the entire beginning of the game can potentially be something that would never happen if he just selected zerg at the race screen.
In my personal experiences I just leave games at the start vs random, they usually aren't worth the time. And yes, a random player telling you his race doesn't mean anything because they could just be lying. but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is. It matters that its distinguishable for the player that a P player would go 1gate FE instead of FFE if he was zerg, because THAT is HIS standard early game, in a PvR matchup. Sure it means fuckall to you and you think its not standard at all, but to the random player its reversed, he dont give no shit about PvZ standard match up, he doesnt have to play it. Why no understand ?? I am confused. There's nothing I'm not understanding. "but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is." That's my point entirely, most people don't care about PvR. The original poster was stating that the random player isn't learning as much about the individual races as he could if he just randomly picked a race and played 10 games with the same race and then repeating the same process for another race. I don't really follow day9 but I believe he stated he does something along these lines a while ago. And what if he just wants fun with random and doesn't want to know ahead what race he plays. You know if the race selection was (here it comes) random. This whole thread is saying to people they can't play the way they want which is so silly.
Incredibly silly. 20 pages of people crying about a minute of not knowing their opponent's race, which is a viable and normal pick for players to choose.
If you don't like playing vs random, you might as well quit now. You're the same kind of person to complain about a new race imbalance or anything other patch related in order to draw attention away from obvious deficits in personal gameplay, and give yourself something to blame. Just quit now or shut up guys.
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On August 26 2012 10:12 KillingVector wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 09:44 shouri wrote:On August 26 2012 09:18 Capped wrote:On August 26 2012 09:13 shouri wrote:
People claim that opening gate core in things such as PvZ (when intially) PvR does not lose you a game, which it doesn't.
The whole point is that people don't get anything from changing their game against random players, other than getting practice against random players and safe openings vs them (which I do not care at all about). The player playing random, if for instance zerg, also does not get the appropriate practice for his race as the entire beginning of the game can potentially be something that would never happen if he just selected zerg at the race screen.
In my personal experiences I just leave games at the start vs random, they usually aren't worth the time. And yes, a random player telling you his race doesn't mean anything because they could just be lying. but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is. It matters that its distinguishable for the player that a P player would go 1gate FE instead of FFE if he was zerg, because THAT is HIS standard early game, in a PvR matchup. Sure it means fuckall to you and you think its not standard at all, but to the random player its reversed, he dont give no shit about PvZ standard match up, he doesnt have to play it. Why no understand ?? I am confused. There's nothing I'm not understanding. "but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is." That's my point entirely, most people don't care about PvR. The original poster was stating that the random player isn't learning as much about the individual races as he could if he just randomly picked a race and played 10 games with the same race and then repeating the same process for another race. I don't really follow day9 but I believe he stated he does something along these lines a while ago. As the game is designed, Random plays like its own race option with its own metagame. Just as much as you don't want to practice PvR, the Random player has no care for learning the metagame of standard ZvP. Of course, maybe you should want to practice PvR, because you will eventually run into a PvR. The random player will never have a standard ZvP by the design of the game. If you feel bad about it then you are free to join the ranks of us random players. Everyone has that option.
I personally don't really care, I see a random player about one in like 50-100 games and I will just leave most of the time. I understand picking random for fun, but I just don't think its a practical way to get better at the game which is just my personal opinion. I only have a problem really with the people who play random and say that they have to learn so many more matchups than you and boast about it as like its some amazing feat.
I don't think anyone is forcing anyone not to play random nor do I think that is possible, but some random players seem to misunderstand the other side as well so I was trying to clarify.
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On August 26 2012 10:28 NrG.Bamboo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 09:55 Assirra wrote:On August 26 2012 09:44 shouri wrote:On August 26 2012 09:18 Capped wrote:On August 26 2012 09:13 shouri wrote:
People claim that opening gate core in things such as PvZ (when intially) PvR does not lose you a game, which it doesn't.
The whole point is that people don't get anything from changing their game against random players, other than getting practice against random players and safe openings vs them (which I do not care at all about). The player playing random, if for instance zerg, also does not get the appropriate practice for his race as the entire beginning of the game can potentially be something that would never happen if he just selected zerg at the race screen.
In my personal experiences I just leave games at the start vs random, they usually aren't worth the time. And yes, a random player telling you his race doesn't mean anything because they could just be lying. but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is. It matters that its distinguishable for the player that a P player would go 1gate FE instead of FFE if he was zerg, because THAT is HIS standard early game, in a PvR matchup. Sure it means fuckall to you and you think its not standard at all, but to the random player its reversed, he dont give no shit about PvZ standard match up, he doesnt have to play it. Why no understand ?? I am confused. There's nothing I'm not understanding. "but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is." That's my point entirely, most people don't care about PvR. The original poster was stating that the random player isn't learning as much about the individual races as he could if he just randomly picked a race and played 10 games with the same race and then repeating the same process for another race. I don't really follow day9 but I believe he stated he does something along these lines a while ago. And what if he just wants fun with random and doesn't want to know ahead what race he plays. You know if the race selection was (here it comes) random. This whole thread is saying to people they can't play the way they want which is so silly. Incredibly silly. 20 pages of people crying about a minute of not knowing their opponent's race, which is a viable and normal pick for players to choose. If you don't like playing vs random, you might as well quit now. You're the same kind of person to complain about a new race imbalance or anything other patch related in order to draw attention away from obvious deficits in personal gameplay, and give yourself something to blame. Just quit now or shut up guys.
A thing I find obnoxious about random is that the delay in discovering the opponent's race depends on map style; on a two-player map it's barely a thing, whereas on a four-player map you could get shafted. That's true in vs. X games as well, but not to the same degree.
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On August 26 2012 10:35 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 10:28 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On August 26 2012 09:55 Assirra wrote:On August 26 2012 09:44 shouri wrote:On August 26 2012 09:18 Capped wrote:On August 26 2012 09:13 shouri wrote:
People claim that opening gate core in things such as PvZ (when intially) PvR does not lose you a game, which it doesn't.
The whole point is that people don't get anything from changing their game against random players, other than getting practice against random players and safe openings vs them (which I do not care at all about). The player playing random, if for instance zerg, also does not get the appropriate practice for his race as the entire beginning of the game can potentially be something that would never happen if he just selected zerg at the race screen.
In my personal experiences I just leave games at the start vs random, they usually aren't worth the time. And yes, a random player telling you his race doesn't mean anything because they could just be lying. but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is. It matters that its distinguishable for the player that a P player would go 1gate FE instead of FFE if he was zerg, because THAT is HIS standard early game, in a PvR matchup. Sure it means fuckall to you and you think its not standard at all, but to the random player its reversed, he dont give no shit about PvZ standard match up, he doesnt have to play it. Why no understand ?? I am confused. There's nothing I'm not understanding. "but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is." That's my point entirely, most people don't care about PvR. The original poster was stating that the random player isn't learning as much about the individual races as he could if he just randomly picked a race and played 10 games with the same race and then repeating the same process for another race. I don't really follow day9 but I believe he stated he does something along these lines a while ago. And what if he just wants fun with random and doesn't want to know ahead what race he plays. You know if the race selection was (here it comes) random. This whole thread is saying to people they can't play the way they want which is so silly. Incredibly silly. 20 pages of people crying about a minute of not knowing their opponent's race, which is a viable and normal pick for players to choose. If you don't like playing vs random, you might as well quit now. You're the same kind of person to complain about a new race imbalance or anything other patch related in order to draw attention away from obvious deficits in personal gameplay, and give yourself something to blame. Just quit now or shut up guys. A thing I find obnoxious about random is that the delay in discovering the opponent's race depends on map style; on a two-player map it's barely a thing, whereas on a four-player map you could get shafted. That's true in vs. X games as well, but not to the same degree.
That's true, but the fact remains that maps and map positions are also selected at random. Chance IS a part of the game, and that's just a face that people need to learn to live with. As much as they want to cry, the fact remains that better players than them will take advantage of these facts.
On August 26 2012 10:28 shouri wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 10:12 KillingVector wrote:On August 26 2012 09:44 shouri wrote:On August 26 2012 09:18 Capped wrote:On August 26 2012 09:13 shouri wrote:
People claim that opening gate core in things such as PvZ (when intially) PvR does not lose you a game, which it doesn't.
The whole point is that people don't get anything from changing their game against random players, other than getting practice against random players and safe openings vs them (which I do not care at all about). The player playing random, if for instance zerg, also does not get the appropriate practice for his race as the entire beginning of the game can potentially be something that would never happen if he just selected zerg at the race screen.
In my personal experiences I just leave games at the start vs random, they usually aren't worth the time. And yes, a random player telling you his race doesn't mean anything because they could just be lying. but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is. It matters that its distinguishable for the player that a P player would go 1gate FE instead of FFE if he was zerg, because THAT is HIS standard early game, in a PvR matchup. Sure it means fuckall to you and you think its not standard at all, but to the random player its reversed, he dont give no shit about PvZ standard match up, he doesnt have to play it. Why no understand ?? I am confused. There's nothing I'm not understanding. "but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is." That's my point entirely, most people don't care about PvR. The original poster was stating that the random player isn't learning as much about the individual races as he could if he just randomly picked a race and played 10 games with the same race and then repeating the same process for another race. I don't really follow day9 but I believe he stated he does something along these lines a while ago. As the game is designed, Random plays like its own race option with its own metagame. Just as much as you don't want to practice PvR, the Random player has no care for learning the metagame of standard ZvP. Of course, maybe you should want to practice PvR, because you will eventually run into a PvR. The random player will never have a standard ZvP by the design of the game. If you feel bad about it then you are free to join the ranks of us random players. Everyone has that option. I personally don't really care, I see a random player about one in like 50-100 games and I will just leave most of the time. I understand picking random for fun, but I just don't think its a practical way to get better at the game which is just my personal opinion. I only have a problem really with the people who play random and say that they have to learn so many more matchups than you and boast about it as like its some amazing feat. I don't think anyone is forcing anyone not to play random nor do I think that is possible, but some random players seem to misunderstand the other side as well so I was trying to clarify.
Do you think these players are getting quality practice when people just leave the game half of the time out of dislike of playing against a certain race (or, rather, an unknown race.)
Random gives a huge insight into the entire game of SC, it's enjoyable in every single matchup if you do enjoy SC, tournaments become much more fun to watch as you can more easily root for any/every race, and every patch is a nerf/buff, every single time, so patches don't really matter as much. It's just the random players who get to giggle at everyone crying about patch notes every single time.
There are distinct advantages to playing Random, as well as obvious disadvantages. Hey, this looks like pretty much every other race, now, doesn't it?
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On August 26 2012 09:44 shouri wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 09:18 Capped wrote:On August 26 2012 09:13 shouri wrote:
People claim that opening gate core in things such as PvZ (when intially) PvR does not lose you a game, which it doesn't.
The whole point is that people don't get anything from changing their game against random players, other than getting practice against random players and safe openings vs them (which I do not care at all about). The player playing random, if for instance zerg, also does not get the appropriate practice for his race as the entire beginning of the game can potentially be something that would never happen if he just selected zerg at the race screen.
In my personal experiences I just leave games at the start vs random, they usually aren't worth the time. And yes, a random player telling you his race doesn't mean anything because they could just be lying. but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is. It matters that its distinguishable for the player that a P player would go 1gate FE instead of FFE if he was zerg, because THAT is HIS standard early game, in a PvR matchup. Sure it means fuckall to you and you think its not standard at all, but to the random player its reversed, he dont give no shit about PvZ standard match up, he doesnt have to play it. Why no understand ?? I am confused. There's nothing I'm not understanding. "but for gods sake, if he plays random it doesnt matter what a standard play in a PvZ would be. It matters what the standard play in a PvR is." That's my point entirely, most people don't care about PvR. The original poster was stating that the random player isn't learning as much about the individual races as he could if he just randomly picked a race and played 10 games with the same race and then repeating the same process for another race. I don't really follow day9 but I believe he stated he does something along these lines a while ago.
Then that's their issue if they don't care about PvR. It doesn't mean random should be removed. It means if they want practice playing against the three races they should find a practice partner. Ladder doesn't cater to any kind of play or race.
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On August 25 2012 21:27 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 20:33 theBALLS wrote:
I always play protoss. Yesterday I accidentally clicked random, spawned as zerg. 6pooled and won.
This is why I agree with you. lol you could have done the same after picking zerg. small sample size, no? or did i miss the sarcasm.
If he did the same thing after picking zerg, his opponent would have been playing as if he was playing against a zerg(ie wall off, ffe, not hatch first), instead of gambling and hoping that his opponent didn't end up a zerg.
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Out of curiosity - at what level are the people arguing against random actually playing at?
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On August 26 2012 11:28 PowerDes wrote:
Out of curiosity - at what level are the people arguing against random actually playing at?
Oh shit, someone who actually understands the game; expect nobody to respond to you
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maybe people play random because their only goal is not to improve in a video game but, hold on a second "enjoy them selves" mind blown?
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This thread makes me cringe. I've played thousands of games as random on ladder, and I no longer play random, and I've never disliked playing against a random. You're saying that your entire "MIDGAME" is f'ed because you aren't told the race when the game starts? LOL. scout. Oh no, I have to make a pylon at my wallin instead of FFEing! That is the end of your build being "messed up" because you can scout after pylon anyway. Oh no, I'm zerg and I'm playing against a random, guess i can still go 15 hatch, or 15 pool if I feel like I can't hold a cannon rush. Oh no, I'm terran and I'm playing against a random, guess I'll make a 14 second depot at wallin in case of early pool instead of going CC after 1st marine. So far, the deviations in my build consist of: having to scout earlier, having to scout earlier, and having to scout earlier. the end.
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EPT
