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On August 26 2012 01:50 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:32 Misacampo wrote:On August 25 2012 16:24 Acritter wrote:On August 25 2012 09:39 Misacampo wrote:
High masters random player. The only matchup that is different might be PvZ due to forge FE, but nowadays alot of people are gateway expanding anyways, so it doesn't even matter. Your points are invalid.
You're a pretty bad "high masters" player, then. Gateway expand is getting more popular, yes, but there's absolutely nothing as safe and reliable as FFE. That's like taking gasless FE away from Terran. Furthermore, there are many other builds that are simply disallowed in such a situation: Nexus First, 3 Hatch before gas (hell, even Hatch first is forbidden because your opponent could 10pool you), and probably more that haven't come to mind. To make matters worse, what if it's a four-player map like Antiga and you scout your opponent last? You have to start directing your build at that point (how many gas, how many Nexus chronos, additional gates/tech/expand) without having ever scouted your opponent, even if you sent out a ~9scout. This is very rapidly approaching the point of the unreasonable. Random players, like yourself, simply aren't playing the same game as the rest of us. You're playing a coin-flippy game that poorly demonstrates skill. So I won't respect you until you start playing random properly: by rolling a die before queueing up each game to choose your race. Basically you're mad because you have 1 build per matchup and don't know how to adapt when a random unknown variable comes up. You can hold 10 pool with hatch first.... Learn new builds instead of qqing. Random variables have no place in a strategy game. That's why there are no random effects in the game. I'm sorry, but saying that people are whining because of a random variable in an rts is a perfectly valid point in my view.
I get your point but because Starcraft is a game of incomplete information and on most maps random spawn positions there is always a random element to it.
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On August 26 2012 01:50 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:32 Misacampo wrote:On August 25 2012 16:24 Acritter wrote:On August 25 2012 09:39 Misacampo wrote:
High masters random player. The only matchup that is different might be PvZ due to forge FE, but nowadays alot of people are gateway expanding anyways, so it doesn't even matter. Your points are invalid.
You're a pretty bad "high masters" player, then. Gateway expand is getting more popular, yes, but there's absolutely nothing as safe and reliable as FFE. That's like taking gasless FE away from Terran. Furthermore, there are many other builds that are simply disallowed in such a situation: Nexus First, 3 Hatch before gas (hell, even Hatch first is forbidden because your opponent could 10pool you), and probably more that haven't come to mind. To make matters worse, what if it's a four-player map like Antiga and you scout your opponent last? You have to start directing your build at that point (how many gas, how many Nexus chronos, additional gates/tech/expand) without having ever scouted your opponent, even if you sent out a ~9scout. This is very rapidly approaching the point of the unreasonable. Random players, like yourself, simply aren't playing the same game as the rest of us. You're playing a coin-flippy game that poorly demonstrates skill. So I won't respect you until you start playing random properly: by rolling a die before queueing up each game to choose your race. Basically you're mad because you have 1 build per matchup and don't know how to adapt when a random unknown variable comes up. You can hold 10 pool with hatch first.... Learn new builds instead of qqing. Random variables have no place in a strategy game. That's why there are no random effects in the game. I'm sorry, but saying that people are whining because of a random variable in an rts is a perfectly valid point in my view. Lol, like spawning positions? Like scouting a proxy 2 rax or not? I don't know how you could not consider that random variables. (note: not completely random, a random variable with a(n un)certain distribution, dependent on actions taken)
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To throw that out there, in continuing fire there is a random delay between shots for stalkers. Seems to have been implemented to asynchronize it for aesthetic purposes.
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On August 26 2012 02:02 Yorbon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 01:50 Tao367 wrote:On August 25 2012 21:32 Misacampo wrote:On August 25 2012 16:24 Acritter wrote:On August 25 2012 09:39 Misacampo wrote:
High masters random player. The only matchup that is different might be PvZ due to forge FE, but nowadays alot of people are gateway expanding anyways, so it doesn't even matter. Your points are invalid.
You're a pretty bad "high masters" player, then. Gateway expand is getting more popular, yes, but there's absolutely nothing as safe and reliable as FFE. That's like taking gasless FE away from Terran. Furthermore, there are many other builds that are simply disallowed in such a situation: Nexus First, 3 Hatch before gas (hell, even Hatch first is forbidden because your opponent could 10pool you), and probably more that haven't come to mind. To make matters worse, what if it's a four-player map like Antiga and you scout your opponent last? You have to start directing your build at that point (how many gas, how many Nexus chronos, additional gates/tech/expand) without having ever scouted your opponent, even if you sent out a ~9scout. This is very rapidly approaching the point of the unreasonable. Random players, like yourself, simply aren't playing the same game as the rest of us. You're playing a coin-flippy game that poorly demonstrates skill. So I won't respect you until you start playing random properly: by rolling a die before queueing up each game to choose your race. Basically you're mad because you have 1 build per matchup and don't know how to adapt when a random unknown variable comes up. You can hold 10 pool with hatch first.... Learn new builds instead of qqing. Random variables have no place in a strategy game. That's why there are no random effects in the game. I'm sorry, but saying that people are whining because of a random variable in an rts is a perfectly valid point in my view. Lol, like spawning positions? Like scouting a proxy 2 rax or not? I don't know how you could not consider that random variables. (note: not completely random, a random variable with a(n un)certain distribution, dependent on actions taken)
No. The player has control over where he scouts and whether he sees a proxy threat. There is no element of random to it. Random variables mean effects that are random, i.e (for example) an emp now removes a maximum of 200 shields to the group it hits. You have no control over which units get the shields removed - it could remove zealot shields which would be against what you intended for example an immortal to lose the shields. That is the type of randomness that I was talking about. It also applies to the non-random player, as it's something they have no control over and are not in a position to know what's going on because of random variables out of their control. They are not able to perform builds they want to, because of the random factor.
That's my opinion, don't flame me for it. Kthxbai
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I don't know why random players think telling their race solves any problem. There is no reason why I should believe that the race you say you are is the race you got.
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Tao, your opinion is unchanging despite endless feedback that addresses all of your 'points'. I think you're just a troll at this point. You don't listen to people or utilize reason when people actually make it clear to you that there is nothing going wrong. You're pretty definitely a troll, the more I think about it. Gonna report you.
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On August 25 2012 16:51 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 16:36 JDub wrote:On August 25 2012 16:24 Acritter wrote:On August 25 2012 09:39 Misacampo wrote:
High masters random player. The only matchup that is different might be PvZ due to forge FE, but nowadays alot of people are gateway expanding anyways, so it doesn't even matter. Your points are invalid.
You're a pretty bad "high masters" player, then. Gateway expand is getting more popular, yes, but there's absolutely nothing as safe and reliable as FFE. That's like taking gasless FE away from Terran. Furthermore, there are many other builds that are simply disallowed in such a situation: Nexus First, 3 Hatch before gas (hell, even Hatch first is forbidden because your opponent could 10pool you), and probably more that haven't come to mind. To make matters worse, what if it's a four-player map like Antiga and you scout your opponent last? You have to start directing your build at that point (how many gas, how many Nexus chronos, additional gates/tech/expand) without having ever scouted your opponent, even if you sent out a ~9scout. This is very rapidly approaching the point of the unreasonable. Random players, like yourself, simply aren't playing the same game as the rest of us. You're playing a coin-flippy game that poorly demonstrates skill. So I won't respect you until you start playing random properly: by rolling a die before queueing up each game to choose your race. By your logic, 15 hatch isn't viable in ZvZ either because you might get 10 pooled... I won't respect you until you get your head out of your ass and stop complaining about random. It's very different there, for one simple reason: it's a calculated risk. Those are okay to have now and again. But against random, there ARE no safe build orders. The extreme example is PvR on TDA, where you have to immediately choose between going for FFE (autoloss versus P and T), going for 1gate expand (autoloss versus P and Z, although if you get lucky and scout them early you MIGHT be able to transition), and going for 4gate (suboptimal versus T and Z, but it's still the best build available and thus the one I use in such a situation). There is no right answer. It's luck. Players can't fall back on a safe, strong build order that can handle over 90% of what the meta throws at it provided that they outplay their opponent. The lack of such builds is what makes random so bullshit. A superior player can't simply fall back on skill to win them games, like what Taeja does. They have to buy into the entire gambling bullshit too. That's just dumb.
The bolded segment is just such bs. Maybe at a pro-level of play, TDA (1 map in the map pool) could add some BO gambling, but at the level of play for you, me, and 99% of people whining in this thread, this is a non-issue. Opening with a gateway and cybercore is not auto-loss against P and Z, if you don't scout them first you'll have to send a second probe scout if you want to do a quick 1-gate expo, but there's a difference between suboptimal and auto-loss if your opponent is bad (read: below pro-level).
Get off your high horse, brohan.
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I think the problem people have with random is that the hidden race advantage they get seems like a 'gimmick' to people who play standard, in the sense that it is not part of the race's units or abilities, but something completely external that Blizzard decided to give them for playing random. It is almost like starting with an extra 100 minerals, only replace the 100 with whatever advantage you get from having your race hidden. And this also shows a second problem with the advantage, that it depends on the races being played, as others have mentioned this doesn't really affect a Terran anywhere near as much as it does a Protoss. So then it might be the case that Random might not actually be balanced in all three match-ups, and only comes across that way because nobody is good enough at playing Random. If this were true then someone who is very good at both Terran and Zerg like for instance MorroW is, could almost guarantee a win if they get matched against a Protoss as Zerg due to the huge advantage they get in this particular matchup. Of course this is an extreme example, but I think it shows how this 'gimmicky' advantage can be problematic and why some people might disagree with it being in the game.
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On August 26 2012 05:34 Lumi wrote:
Tao, your opinion is unchanging despite endless feedback that addresses all of your 'points'. I think you're just a troll at this point. You don't listen to people or utilize reason when people actually make it clear to you that there is nothing going wrong. You're pretty definitely a troll, the more I think about it. Gonna report you.
See bolded, its my personal view. You don't have to agree with it, but I respect your opinion. Show some respect and do the same. Just because I disagree with you does not mean I'm a fucking troll. Grow up and learn how be a decent human being.
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On August 26 2012 05:24 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 02:02 Yorbon wrote:On August 26 2012 01:50 Tao367 wrote:On August 25 2012 21:32 Misacampo wrote:On August 25 2012 16:24 Acritter wrote:On August 25 2012 09:39 Misacampo wrote:
High masters random player. The only matchup that is different might be PvZ due to forge FE, but nowadays alot of people are gateway expanding anyways, so it doesn't even matter. Your points are invalid.
You're a pretty bad "high masters" player, then. Gateway expand is getting more popular, yes, but there's absolutely nothing as safe and reliable as FFE. That's like taking gasless FE away from Terran. Furthermore, there are many other builds that are simply disallowed in such a situation: Nexus First, 3 Hatch before gas (hell, even Hatch first is forbidden because your opponent could 10pool you), and probably more that haven't come to mind. To make matters worse, what if it's a four-player map like Antiga and you scout your opponent last? You have to start directing your build at that point (how many gas, how many Nexus chronos, additional gates/tech/expand) without having ever scouted your opponent, even if you sent out a ~9scout. This is very rapidly approaching the point of the unreasonable. Random players, like yourself, simply aren't playing the same game as the rest of us. You're playing a coin-flippy game that poorly demonstrates skill. So I won't respect you until you start playing random properly: by rolling a die before queueing up each game to choose your race. Basically you're mad because you have 1 build per matchup and don't know how to adapt when a random unknown variable comes up. You can hold 10 pool with hatch first.... Learn new builds instead of qqing. Random variables have no place in a strategy game. That's why there are no random effects in the game. I'm sorry, but saying that people are whining because of a random variable in an rts is a perfectly valid point in my view. Lol, like spawning positions? Like scouting a proxy 2 rax or not? I don't know how you could not consider that random variables. (note: not completely random, a random variable with a(n un)certain distribution, dependent on actions taken) No. The player has control over where he scouts and whether he sees a proxy threat. There is no element of random to it. Random variables mean effects that are random, i.e (for example) an emp now removes a maximum of 200 shields to the group it hits. You have no control over which units get the shields removed - it could remove zealot shields which would be against what you intended for example an immortal to lose the shields. That is the type of randomness that I was talking about. It also applies to the non-random player, as it's something they have no control over and are not in a position to know what's going on because of random variables out of their control. They are not able to perform builds they want to, because of the random factor. That's my opinion, don't flame me for it. Kthxbai Did you read the part of my post between brackets? Unless you scout the entire map in an instant, there is a random element to scouting, despite having control about scout paths. The whole point of people picking certain overlord spots or taking certain paths while scouting is to maximise the likelihood of scouting something valuable. As for your example, it states exactly the same 'type' of randomness (whatever that may be). In your example, i can choose to emp only single units/small groups of units, to maximise the likelihood of the intended shield drain as opposed to unintended.
You feel like you opponent has a significant advantage because his race is random. You do have control over how much of an advantage he has. It's not really hard to think of things. Like double scout on 4 player maps (single scout makes advantage bigger, because possible later race scout), scout earlier (single scout makes advantage bigger, because possible later race scout), devise an atypical build against random (turning his choice against him).
Besides, you begin with an advantage against a random player, you need to practice less match-ups. If the advantage is so great, why don't i see random progamers? Especially people like drg and mvp who are the only ones with win rates above 60 % with all 3 races. (source: gsl season 3 drg vs ryung game 1; don't know if still true.)
Aside discussions about which build order against random is best, i honestly think there isn't much more to say about this.
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On August 26 2012 05:24 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 02:02 Yorbon wrote:On August 26 2012 01:50 Tao367 wrote:On August 25 2012 21:32 Misacampo wrote:On August 25 2012 16:24 Acritter wrote:On August 25 2012 09:39 Misacampo wrote:
High masters random player. The only matchup that is different might be PvZ due to forge FE, but nowadays alot of people are gateway expanding anyways, so it doesn't even matter. Your points are invalid.
You're a pretty bad "high masters" player, then. Gateway expand is getting more popular, yes, but there's absolutely nothing as safe and reliable as FFE. That's like taking gasless FE away from Terran. Furthermore, there are many other builds that are simply disallowed in such a situation: Nexus First, 3 Hatch before gas (hell, even Hatch first is forbidden because your opponent could 10pool you), and probably more that haven't come to mind. To make matters worse, what if it's a four-player map like Antiga and you scout your opponent last? You have to start directing your build at that point (how many gas, how many Nexus chronos, additional gates/tech/expand) without having ever scouted your opponent, even if you sent out a ~9scout. This is very rapidly approaching the point of the unreasonable. Random players, like yourself, simply aren't playing the same game as the rest of us. You're playing a coin-flippy game that poorly demonstrates skill. So I won't respect you until you start playing random properly: by rolling a die before queueing up each game to choose your race. Basically you're mad because you have 1 build per matchup and don't know how to adapt when a random unknown variable comes up. You can hold 10 pool with hatch first.... Learn new builds instead of qqing. Random variables have no place in a strategy game. That's why there are no random effects in the game. I'm sorry, but saying that people are whining because of a random variable in an rts is a perfectly valid point in my view. Lol, like spawning positions? Like scouting a proxy 2 rax or not? I don't know how you could not consider that random variables. (note: not completely random, a random variable with a(n un)certain distribution, dependent on actions taken) No. The player has control over where he scouts and whether he sees a proxy threat. There is no element of random to it. Random variables mean effects that are random, i.e (for example) an emp now removes a maximum of 200 shields to the group it hits. You have no control over which units get the shields removed - it could remove zealot shields which would be against what you intended for example an immortal to lose the shields. That is the type of randomness that I was talking about. It also applies to the non-random player, as it's something they have no control over and are not in a position to know what's going on because of random variables out of their control. They are not able to perform builds they want to, because of the random factor. That's my opinion, don't flame me for it. Kthxbai
The fuck. You have enough control to scout their race. You have no control over what they build. It's entirely random if in a pvp he proxy 2 gates because you simply don't know until you scout. Wanted to go straight robo? Can't now, he proxy 2 gated you and you have to play into what he wants. He ruined all your fun. Anyone who proxy 2 gates is ruining the game.
You ask not to be flamed and post this crap, as if the ladder is supposed to be something you can control and bends to what you'd like to play against. It's delusional.
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Just played against a random on Condemned Ridge.
I didn't get to know what race I was playing against until the 5 minute mark.
You can lose to a 6 pool before the 5 minute mark.
It turned out to be a nexus first Protoss, meaning the correct response was the exact opposite to a 6 pool.
What a joke this game is.
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Edit: You know what, it's not worth it.
People think that their opinions which happen to be opinion described as facts are the only valid opinions. You think the random advantage of being an unknown race is okay. Yes. I respect that. I don't agree with it because of the reasons above, random variables should not be in an rts game. Spawning randomly is okay because it happens for both players to spawn randomly. I don't see what is so hard to understand.
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On August 26 2012 06:15 _Search_ wrote:
Just played against a random on Condemned Ridge.
I didn't get to know what race I was playing against until the 5 minute mark.
You can lose to a 6 pool before the 5 minute mark.
It turned out to be a nexus first Protoss, meaning the correct response was the exact opposite to a 6 pool.
What a joke this game is.
I'm sorry but if you're not scouting at all for 5 minutes, you're going to be losing a lot more games regardless of random.
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On August 26 2012 06:29 RoarMan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 06:15 _Search_ wrote:
Just played against a random on Condemned Ridge.
I didn't get to know what race I was playing against until the 5 minute mark.
You can lose to a 6 pool before the 5 minute mark.
It turned out to be a nexus first Protoss, meaning the correct response was the exact opposite to a 6 pool.
What a joke this game is. I'm sorry but if you're not scouting at all for 5 minutes, you're going to be losing a lot more games regardless of random.
Condemned Ridge is one of the bigger maps, and he might have found scouted his opponent's spawn last, but 5 minutes does seem a bit long.
I started playing Random and I can see how it rules out or discourages certain builds by the opponent. But at the same time every race has a safer option. And constantly fluctuating between 9 different matchups and 3 different sets of hotkeys has its own disadvantages for the Random player.
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On August 26 2012 07:11 Monkeyballs25 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 06:29 RoarMan wrote:On August 26 2012 06:15 _Search_ wrote:
Just played against a random on Condemned Ridge.
I didn't get to know what race I was playing against until the 5 minute mark.
You can lose to a 6 pool before the 5 minute mark.
It turned out to be a nexus first Protoss, meaning the correct response was the exact opposite to a 6 pool.
What a joke this game is. I'm sorry but if you're not scouting at all for 5 minutes, you're going to be losing a lot more games regardless of random. Condemned Ridge is one of the bigger maps, and he might have found scouted his opponent's spawn last, but 5 minutes does seem a bit long. I started playing Random and I can see how it rules out or discourages certain builds by the opponent. But at the same time every race has a safer option. And constantly fluctuating between 9 different matchups and 3 different sets of hotkeys has its own disadvantages for the Random player.
But, why should that affect me, you had the option to choose one race, like I might have done. You voluntarily decided to play random, fully aware of the inherent disadvantages.
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this is getting pretty sad, how can you still be so incredibly mad about random people. get on with it and start playing! let it go theres worse things in life you could spend your energy on.
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What's wrong with having a civilized discussion where both sides can put across their points? The tl community sounds immature.
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I play random too (low masters). I usually don't tell my race, unless i have a "good" day.
Anyways, using the data from sc2ranks only 4.5% are random players in master, and around 7% in diamond league. I wonder, how you can hit so many random players....
These threads keep popping out of nowhere, just because someone lost to a random player, who -most likely- was better anyways than them.
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On August 26 2012 05:30 aHaTsc wrote:
I don't know why random players think telling their race solves any problem. There is no reason why I should believe that the race you say you are is the race you got.
If you aren't satisfied with free information from your opponent (who plays 6 more matchups than you,) go ahead and download a maphack. That seems to be the best way for these sour children to feel like they are on the same level.
9 matchups vs 3, 1-2 minutes of not knowing your opponents race. Oh no! Instant loss!
On August 26 2012 07:57 Xulatis wrote:
I play random too (low masters). I usually don't tell my race, unless i have a "good" day.
Anyways, using the data from sc2ranks only 4.5% are random players in master, and around 7% in diamond league. I wonder, how you can hit so many random players....
These threads keep popping out of nowhere, just because someone lost to a random player, who -most likely- was better anyways than them.
Everyone wants an excuse for why they lost.
"my opponent was random, I started at a disadvantage!" Well I guess the best rebuttal for this argument would be to ask these crybabies to play random for a season or two themselves. If they don't hang themselves in the process of realizing they are shit at SC2, then they will just revert to their own race and shut their fucking mouths.
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EPT
