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Why you shouldnt be playing random on ladder. - Page 7

Forum Index > SC2 General
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PersonDudeGuy
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada47 Posts
August 23 2012 01:34 GMT
#121
All my builds open essentially the exact same and diverge at ordinary scout times so playing against random is never dangerous for me. Playing random for the sole purpose of collecting ladder points by abusing metagame is kind of short sighted in my opinion.
Double hellion openings ftw
aviator116
Profile Joined November 2011
United States820 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-23 01:38:22
August 23 2012 01:37 GMT
#122
On August 23 2012 10:34 PersonDudeGuy wrote:
All my builds open essentially the exact same and diverge at ordinary scout times so playing against random is never dangerous for me. Playing random for the sole purpose of collecting ladder points by abusing metagame is kind of short sighted in my opinion.

Playing SC2 in itself is incredibly short-sighted too you know? I mean seriously, do you honestly expect to become a pro-gamer one day? And even if you do, do you think you'll find a super stable source of income that way?
Fact is, Starcraft 2 is a video game. It's a hobby, meant for entertainment, you should really only play for fun. Some people obviously need to come to grips with that.
Bogus ST_Life IMMVP
karpo
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden1998 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-23 01:41:56
August 23 2012 01:39 GMT
#123
I'm pretty sure that people play random for fun. Everyone with half a brain knows that you don't learn to play any of the races optimally if you choose random. Seems like you created this thread due to being upset about not being able to play normally against random players, why do you care what others do with their time in a video game?

Lots of people pick weaker characters in fighting games, pick suboptimal specializations in MMO's, or random heroes in Moba games. If they prefer to play the game differently, let them.
TheRageKage12
Profile Joined November 2010
United States161 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-23 02:18:41
August 23 2012 01:39 GMT
#124
On August 23 2012 10:37 aviator116 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 23 2012 10:34 PersonDudeGuy wrote:
All my builds open essentially the exact same and diverge at ordinary scout times so playing against random is never dangerous for me. Playing random for the sole purpose of collecting ladder points by abusing metagame is kind of short sighted in my opinion.

Playing SC2 in itself is incredibly short-sighted too you know? I mean seriously, do you honestly expect to become a pro-gamer one day? And even if you do, do you think you'll find a super stable source of income that way?
Fact is, Starcraft 2 is a video game. It's a hobby, meant for entertainment, you should really only play for fun. Some people obviously need to come to grips with that.


Nice straw man argument.

EDIT: I stand corrected, I'll sit in the corner and get my head out of my ass.
aviator116
Profile Joined November 2011
United States820 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-23 01:42:57
August 23 2012 01:42 GMT
#125
On August 23 2012 10:39 TheRageKage12 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 23 2012 10:37 aviator116 wrote:
On August 23 2012 10:34 PersonDudeGuy wrote:
All my builds open essentially the exact same and diverge at ordinary scout times so playing against random is never dangerous for me. Playing random for the sole purpose of collecting ladder points by abusing metagame is kind of short sighted in my opinion.

Playing SC2 in itself is incredibly short-sighted too you know? I mean seriously, do you honestly expect to become a pro-gamer one day? And even if you do, do you think you'll find a super stable source of income that way?
Fact is, Starcraft 2 is a video game. It's a hobby, meant for entertainment, you should really only play for fun. Some people obviously need to come to grips with that.


Nice straw man argument.

Straw man is expanding the initial statement or misinterpreting it, and then refuting your interpretation of his argument. How is my response a straw-man argument, pray tell?
Bogus ST_Life IMMVP
emc
Profile Joined September 2010
United States3088 Posts
August 23 2012 01:44 GMT
#126
On August 23 2012 06:58 BloodNinja wrote:
I play random because its fun and I play to have fun. So why shouldn't I play random and have fun? Why exactly should I care about the metagame? Its not like I plan on going pro (or even hitting GM on ladder).


he wasn't directing the thread at you, he mentioned that it's directed to players who are actively trying to improve. this thread is really directed at players who think they understand all the matchups because they play random in master league, but playing a PvZ as random is completely different from actually choosing protoss and playing against a zerg who knows your protoss. so in reality, your master level PvZ isn't really master level at all because without telling your opponent what race you are in the beginning of the match, there is no way in hell the first 5 min of a R(P)vZ is the same as a normal PvZ.

I guess it should be common sense for most people and maybe this thread needed to be made, I have no idea... but he's right, if you want to be competitive, dont play random.
dreamsmasher
Profile Joined November 2010
816 Posts
August 23 2012 01:45 GMT
#127
proxy gate every random i meet cuz i hate gateway first builds against z
bigbadgreen
Profile Joined October 2010
United States142 Posts
August 23 2012 01:45 GMT
#128
I see nothing wrong with randoms. If you want to improve so badly and want to control matchups and scenarios then you should join a team and get practice partners. That way you can practice specific builds and timings against other specific builds and timings. Ladder will always be unpredictable. If you're not will to accept and adjust to that fact you shouldn't be playing on ladder. Pros play ladder to keep up on their mechanics. No pro plays ladder to develop builds or to practis specific parts of matchups. There is a reason for the slowdown of korean streamers right now. They are not wanting to show off tweaked builds and new things they've figured out and are keeping things in house with practice partners before the major upcoming seasons and tournametns happen. Nobody picked up on slayers major transformation of hellion play before mlg, despite the playing on ladder. Ladder is purely machanics and muscle memory training. You don't get to control ladder, but fortunatly you get to adapt to it.
Now let people play how they want. If your only goal is to improve your play then quit when you get a random. Randoms are quite rare by ladder standards. One game lost won't crush your mmr and you won't waste your time playing what you decide is suboptimal play.
karpo
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden1998 Posts
August 23 2012 01:48 GMT
#129
On August 23 2012 10:44 emc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 23 2012 06:58 BloodNinja wrote:
I play random because its fun and I play to have fun. So why shouldn't I play random and have fun? Why exactly should I care about the metagame? Its not like I plan on going pro (or even hitting GM on ladder).


he wasn't directing the thread at you, he mentioned that it's directed to players who are actively trying to improve. this thread is really directed at players who think they understand all the matchups because they play random in master league, but playing a PvZ as random is completely different from actually choosing protoss and playing against a zerg who knows your protoss. so in reality, your master level PvZ isn't really master level at all because without telling your opponent what race you are in the beginning of the match, there is no way in hell the first 5 min of a R(P)vZ is the same as a normal PvZ.

I guess it should be common sense for most people and maybe this thread needed to be made, I have no idea... but he's right, if you want to be competitive, dont play random.


Maybe people want to see how far they can go on the ladder by only playing random? How can it be such a big deal for non-random players that they feel the need to complain about it?
Sinensis
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States2513 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-23 01:52:47
August 23 2012 01:52 GMT
#130
On August 23 2012 10:39 TheRageKage12 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 23 2012 10:37 aviator116 wrote:
On August 23 2012 10:34 PersonDudeGuy wrote:
All my builds open essentially the exact same and diverge at ordinary scout times so playing against random is never dangerous for me. Playing random for the sole purpose of collecting ladder points by abusing metagame is kind of short sighted in my opinion.

Playing SC2 in itself is incredibly short-sighted too you know? I mean seriously, do you honestly expect to become a pro-gamer one day? And even if you do, do you think you'll find a super stable source of income that way?
Fact is, Starcraft 2 is a video game. It's a hobby, meant for entertainment, you should really only play for fun. Some people obviously need to come to grips with that.


Nice straw man argument.


A straw man argument is when someone builds a case against the weakest evidence provided. As common as this kind of logical fallacy is, this is not an example of one.
jinorazi
Profile Joined October 2004
Korea (South)4948 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-23 01:59:31
August 23 2012 01:53 GMT
#131
On August 23 2012 10:44 emc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 23 2012 06:58 BloodNinja wrote:
I play random because its fun and I play to have fun. So why shouldn't I play random and have fun? Why exactly should I care about the metagame? Its not like I plan on going pro (or even hitting GM on ladder).


he wasn't directing the thread at you, he mentioned that it's directed to players who are actively trying to improve. this thread is really directed at players who think they understand all the matchups because they play random in master league, but playing a PvZ as random is completely different from actually choosing protoss and playing against a zerg who knows your protoss. so in reality, your master level PvZ isn't really master level at all because without telling your opponent what race you are in the beginning of the match, there is no way in hell the first 5 min of a R(P)vZ is the same as a normal PvZ.

I guess it should be common sense for most people and maybe this thread needed to be made, I have no idea... but he's right, if you want to be competitive, dont play random.


no, i think the point is that the first 3 minutes will not determine the outcome of the game. overall better player will/should win. to say PvZ and PvRZ are completely different is....completely wrong.

as i've said before, best way to improve is mechanics, game sense, adapting, reacting, macro/micro, etc. NOT perfecting a build order, especially of the first 3 minutes.
age: 84 | location: california | sex: 잘함
PowerDes
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States520 Posts
August 23 2012 01:54 GMT
#132
Whats with all the threads about random?
It's a game, let people play what they want to play.
twitch.tv/PowerDes
Steelo_Rivers
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1968 Posts
August 23 2012 01:59 GMT
#133
Some people that random on ladder only do it to win. Its the only way they know how to win. I see nothing wrong with that. Some people dont care about learning or improving, they only car about winning. If I knew how to play all 3 races at the exact same level, I would probably play random sometimes as well. Its rare to play random players at higher levels but even then, most random players dont know how to play past the midgame which is an easy win. In lower levels of play, most random players cheese. If you're a lower level player and you play against someone that is random, dont go and try to be cute with a ffe or a 15 cc, just play standard until you get a sufficient intel from scouting.
ok
Gamegene
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States8308 Posts
August 23 2012 02:02 GMT
#134
this is why day9 rolls a dice before every ladder session/match to see which race he'll play
Throw on your favorite jacket and you're good to roll. Stroll through the trees and let your miseries go.
freakhill
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Japan463 Posts
August 23 2012 02:42 GMT
#135
On August 23 2012 11:02 Gamegene wrote:
this is why day9 rolls a dice before every ladder session/match to see which race he'll play


Day9 is not a random player.
moo ForGG, Dragon, MVP, Gumiho, DRG, PartinG, Life]0[!
Luepert
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States1934 Posts
August 23 2012 02:47 GMT
#136
It doesn't matter, they get good at r(z)vp and r(p)vz. Why would they need to get good at regular Zvp and pvz? They don't ever play it, its just different, not better or worse.
esports
EnderSword
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada669 Posts
August 23 2012 02:59 GMT
#137
On August 23 2012 11:42 freakhill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 23 2012 11:02 Gamegene wrote:
this is why day9 rolls a dice before every ladder session/match to see which race he'll play


Day9 is not a random player.


That's his point.

He's choosing his race randomly, without playing 'Random'



I kind of agree with the OP, my first several seasons were as Random and when I got to diamond I wanted to finally choose Protoss and focus on one race.

Since I was better with Protoss, I expected I'd go higher in Rank, since I wouldn't be playing my weakest Race, Terran anymore.

What I actually experienced though was that within 2 weeks I had been demoted back to Platinum.

Builds I thought were fine stopped working, and all of a sudden people were cheesing me with things I had never actually learned to defend.
No one is going to Cannon Rush a Random, because you have to decide while blind, and if I'm Terran or Zerg it just fails. Same with like Proxy 2 gate or a 6 pool or Marine/SCV all ins or even the 1-1-1.

As soon as my race was known, what I was playing against totally changed. Then it took a few weeks to actually adapt to that, change what I was doing and get back to Diamond and eventually move up in Rank.

So ya, if I had it to do over, I'd still play Randomly... but I'd do something like roll a dice and then pick that race, not actually play 'Random'

Bronze/Silver/Gold level Guides - www.youtube.com/user/EnderSword
FortMonty
Profile Joined May 2012
United States63 Posts
August 23 2012 03:01 GMT
#138
In another respect, a player who plays as a random will actually gain a great deal more knowledge of standard play if they play random. For instance, When I first started playing random I had a huge problem with decision making and knowing when to attack, when to expand, when I should commit, when I shouldn't. However, as I started playing random and playing each race, I began to make better judgement calls because I knew the extent of the damage I dealt to my opponent better because I understood the race they played. Not many Terran's know how much trouble a Zerg is in when they do the 4 helion opener, and they don't know the physical possiblities of a protoss player in the early game. At least not as well as a toss or Zerg would.

Also, when you play random, you don't NEED the standard TvZ metagame, or the Standard PvZ metagame, unless of course you're planning on changing to 1 specific race. Random is a new match-up all in it's own, so worrying about the current metagame is useless because so long as you play random, odds are you won't be exposed to it. A Zerg player doesn't know the standard play for a TvT, guess that Zerg shouldn't play Zerg or they're falling behind in the metagame! All jokes aside, the metagame is irrelevent, no pro's literally do the same build every match up unless you're like Stephano in the redbull tourny and look what happened to him, sure he played like a beats, but he lost to MC.

I think playing as a random helps your mechanics and your reactionary play very well, since you can never be sure what to expect from your opponent since you know they won't do a standard build, you have to thinm on your toes, just like them.
Expect Nothing, Prepare for Anything.
KarneEspada
Profile Joined May 2011
United States72 Posts
August 23 2012 03:04 GMT
#139
I disagree whole heartedly.

On the contrary, playing against a random means you have to think outside the box and use your game knowledge / decision making to a fuller extent in order to win (meta styles do a lot of decision making FOR you). Relying on a metagame just to be "good" is a terrible idea, it has no long term effect on your decision making skills; it just makes you good at a build. I have 2 GM friends that are random, one of them plays standard and the other player is very unorthodox..they both are amazingly good practice partners because my decision making is tested to the fullest; I can't just rely on my build order to hold my hand.
KespadA, UC Irvine
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
August 23 2012 03:37 GMT
#140
On August 23 2012 12:04 KarneEspada wrote:
I disagree whole heartedly.

On the contrary, playing against a random means you have to think outside the box and use your game knowledge / decision making to a fuller extent in order to win (meta styles do a lot of decision making FOR you). Relying on a metagame just to be "good" is a terrible idea, it has no long term effect on your decision making skills; it just makes you good at a build. I have 2 GM friends that are random, one of them plays standard and the other player is very unorthodox..they both are amazingly good practice partners because my decision making is tested to the fullest; I can't just rely on my build order to hold my hand.


You hate playing me, and you said I'm a terrible practice partner.
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