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On August 23 2012 04:06 Dexington wrote:
How did those invites get decided? Was it point seeding after the KESPA players couldn't come?
At first, I thought that's what it was, but it doesn't fit. It appears to be Summer qualifier result (Arena ranking taking priority of course, but only five of the bottom Arena finishers are attending).
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On August 23 2012 04:09 ArsAeterna wrote:
Where is SCARLETT
Focusing on taking down WCS NA for $24k (and a World Championship seed).
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On August 23 2012 03:46 Starcraft2Viewer wrote:Poll: Will Desrow Win MLG?Yes (39) 70% No (15) 27% A close 2nd (2) 4% 56 total votes Your vote: Will Desrow Win MLG? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): A close 2nd
The results are in,
The response is not surprising.
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GL to everyone playing.....Excited to see how some of the newer/ lesser known players will fair in the tourney.... alongside out old favorites and longstanding pros.
The amound of negativity in this thread is alarming.... [cant we just all get along and play SCII]
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No offense to anyone in the tournament, I hope they all do well, but Group D is a joke.
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On August 23 2012 04:07 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 04:00 ragz_gt wrote:On August 23 2012 03:44 vthree wrote:On August 23 2012 03:37 ragz_gt wrote:On August 23 2012 03:29 vthree wrote:On August 23 2012 03:25 ragz_gt wrote:On August 23 2012 03:19 vthree wrote:On August 23 2012 03:09 ohampatu wrote:On August 23 2012 02:53 Xeris wrote:
Saying "its not their fault they're invited" is like an insult. At least it appears to me to be an insult in that you're saying they shouldn't be invited because it's "not the right way."
What, to you, would be the right way?
It seems like the best method of inviting players is based on performance in your events. Therefore:
Invite 17-32 place at Arena
Invite the next highest people on the list from the Arena qualifiers
It seems like MLG followed the most objective criteria. What way would be better in your opinion? Not like MLG can just afford to fly in random invites, they don't have infinite money The best method? Well, these spots were meant for 8 kespa players, so they were never intended to be based off seeds of their qualifier, they were their to invite the big names. Now we realize that the big names they originally wanted couldn't come. In my head, it only makes logical sense to invite the equivalent of what Kespa would have brought. Big high caliber players/names. Instead they took the seeding method, which is a viable option and makes sense based off their seeds, but the bad one. Those 8 spots were worth about 20k watchers. Your players aren't gonna bring 20k watchers, see my point. Not trying to bash, just using the logics from a business standpoint and fan standpoint. Actually, if they just wanted viewers, they should just have Idra vs Stephano. Kind of funny that GSL gets shiat on for inviting big name foreigners to draw more viewers. And MLG gets shiat for giving spots to 'no names' who did well in the qualifiers. GSL for inviting big name player who are bad. MLG for giving spots to 'no names' who are bad. Solution, invite better players, for both case. (There was not much outrage for GSL seed to NaNiwa / Polt / viOLet / ThorZaIN besides the standard "against any seed" crowd, as opposite to seed to Huk / IdrA ) So there are 3 non-arena seeds. Who would get them? MKP, Leenock AND??? Nonono.... they ALREADY messed up by this time, as my earlier post suggested: On August 23 2012 03:07 ragz_gt wrote:
It's not like MLG doesn't know they messed up royally, which is why they hid the invites for as long as possible (and a couple extra days anyway). The question is why they reserved 8 seeds for KeSPA player they obviously expected to get when it's even more obviously not going to happen. It's like reserve a 8 seats at a restaurant without confirming and hope 8 people you know would just show up. Except 100x worse. Why would they just randomly reserve 8 spot BEFORE they can confirm they can GET 8 people worthy of seeding? Maybe Kespa did promise to send players and backed out? Players withdraw from events all the time. Leenock withdraw from Arena. Like you said, they were already in a bad spot. And any invites would have been seen in a negative light. And you said 'invite better players'. So whom would you have invited? They could just bite the bullet and promote best player from open bracket: MKP Leenock ThorZain Heart are no brainer And then 4 from Killer Select, theSTC, the 8 current seeds, Someone from EG or Root etc The point is to make best of a bad situation, not by try to make a bad situation unsalvageable by trying to stuff their "North American Invite-Only Qualifier" (which is where the current seeds are based on apparently. BTW: Gix actually lost in the first round, or forfeited, in that, so his seed is based on him being invited to a qualifier and not win a single map) into something it clearly was not meant to. ROFL. giX missed the WB matches and went to LB where he fought through everyone and was 1 match alway from making Arena. And guess who he beat on the way? Heart!!! The no brainer invite.
They still seeded someone who lost in losers bracket of a NA only qualifier into the groupstage of one of the most prestigious tournaments in the world (at least before this lineup, which is their weakest in over 1.5 years). That's a "no brainer" invite? Someone who has a sub 50% winrate over the past 5 months with losses to pokebunny, trimaster, and drewbie. Yea ok.
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On August 23 2012 03:47 Ursadon-n-Pals wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 03:31 OrbitalPlane wrote:On August 23 2012 03:17 Xeris wrote:On August 23 2012 03:15 OrbitalPlane wrote:On August 23 2012 02:53 Xeris wrote:
Saying "its not their fault they're invited" is like an insult. At least it appears to me to be an insult in that you're saying they shouldn't be invited because it's "not the right way." These are two different points. First one i specially say its not their fault. Why would they turn such an offer down? You know there are ppl like Jinro who turn down their Coda A invitation because they think they are not good enough. In my opinion that's not the players problem to think about how fair the inviteing process is. Exactly that's the reason why i emphasised it's NOT their fault. Second one. I don't say these players should not be invited. If they use the methode you explained then i say i don't like the methode MLG uses to invite the players. This is not directed towards the players and i don't see how it insults them. If those players would be idra, incontrol etc i would ask the same questions and i would also say that i don't like the methode MLG used. I don't see how the players could be personal offended by my words.
What, to you, would be the right way?
It seems like the best method of inviting players is based on performance in your events. Therefore:
Invite 17-32 place at Arena
Invite the next highest people on the list from the Arena qualifiers
It seems like MLG followed the most objective criteria. What way would be better in your opinion? Not like MLG can just afford to fly in random invites, they don't have infinite money
I think i stated that in every single last post i made. I think the best option would have been to give more seeds to the highest finisher in the open bracket. If the now invited players are good enough they will qualify through the open bracket and gain their seed that way. But there are also some other solutions that were at least better than the current one. I'm sure they invited places 17-32 in the arena before inviting binski and Caliber.... most likely people in 17-32 turned it down because... shocker ... it's expensive to go to an MLG. did you read my post? i didn't use the word ARENA i used the word OPEN BRACKET. this will be my last post on this matter btw. Seems like i wasted my time there. Nobody cares here anyway. On a side note: You know i won't be happy if those players get slaughtered 0:5 in their group. I am always happy if foreigners/underdogs take game of koreans. But a lot of ppl will then say that their invites were not justified. If they qualify through the open bracket they at least achieve that. Even if they get slaughted after that they already achieved something! I think the way it is now these games won't be on the main stage and they will get less exposure than they would if they qualified for it. You will see hero TaeJa on the stage. The local scene doesn't get a lot of attention. Did you know that Socke the guy who had several amazing runs at MLG (e.g being the only player defeating DRG and being one game away from beeing first in his group in one of the last MLG) didn't had a single stage match yet? But this is a different topic. And you could also argue about how much sense it makes to have 2 tournaments at the same time... You have the group play format completely wrong. There is already eight "OPEN BRACKET" players that enter the group stage. The only way you could increase this without making it messy and dumb is to make it 16 which would be a logistical mess.
You have 16 addional players and only 8 addional seeds?
Seems like an easy task not a logistical mess.
Did you know that in the past the players did already play out all games?
Example:
it was not 28-32 place, they played for the 28th, 29th place etc.
Wasn't impossible then isn't impossible now.
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United States33518 Posts
from a stream-viewers perspective, this could be the first time in almost two years that IEM has a better event than MLG.... besides the 3AM start, anyway
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On August 23 2012 04:16 xrapture wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 04:07 vthree wrote:On August 23 2012 04:00 ragz_gt wrote:On August 23 2012 03:44 vthree wrote:On August 23 2012 03:37 ragz_gt wrote:On August 23 2012 03:29 vthree wrote:On August 23 2012 03:25 ragz_gt wrote:On August 23 2012 03:19 vthree wrote:On August 23 2012 03:09 ohampatu wrote:On August 23 2012 02:53 Xeris wrote:
Saying "its not their fault they're invited" is like an insult. At least it appears to me to be an insult in that you're saying they shouldn't be invited because it's "not the right way."
What, to you, would be the right way?
It seems like the best method of inviting players is based on performance in your events. Therefore:
Invite 17-32 place at Arena
Invite the next highest people on the list from the Arena qualifiers
It seems like MLG followed the most objective criteria. What way would be better in your opinion? Not like MLG can just afford to fly in random invites, they don't have infinite money The best method? Well, these spots were meant for 8 kespa players, so they were never intended to be based off seeds of their qualifier, they were their to invite the big names. Now we realize that the big names they originally wanted couldn't come. In my head, it only makes logical sense to invite the equivalent of what Kespa would have brought. Big high caliber players/names. Instead they took the seeding method, which is a viable option and makes sense based off their seeds, but the bad one. Those 8 spots were worth about 20k watchers. Your players aren't gonna bring 20k watchers, see my point. Not trying to bash, just using the logics from a business standpoint and fan standpoint. Actually, if they just wanted viewers, they should just have Idra vs Stephano. Kind of funny that GSL gets shiat on for inviting big name foreigners to draw more viewers. And MLG gets shiat for giving spots to 'no names' who did well in the qualifiers. GSL for inviting big name player who are bad. MLG for giving spots to 'no names' who are bad. Solution, invite better players, for both case. (There was not much outrage for GSL seed to NaNiwa / Polt / viOLet / ThorZaIN besides the standard "against any seed" crowd, as opposite to seed to Huk / IdrA ) So there are 3 non-arena seeds. Who would get them? MKP, Leenock AND??? Nonono.... they ALREADY messed up by this time, as my earlier post suggested: On August 23 2012 03:07 ragz_gt wrote:
It's not like MLG doesn't know they messed up royally, which is why they hid the invites for as long as possible (and a couple extra days anyway). The question is why they reserved 8 seeds for KeSPA player they obviously expected to get when it's even more obviously not going to happen. It's like reserve a 8 seats at a restaurant without confirming and hope 8 people you know would just show up. Except 100x worse. Why would they just randomly reserve 8 spot BEFORE they can confirm they can GET 8 people worthy of seeding? Maybe Kespa did promise to send players and backed out? Players withdraw from events all the time. Leenock withdraw from Arena. Like you said, they were already in a bad spot. And any invites would have been seen in a negative light. And you said 'invite better players'. So whom would you have invited? They could just bite the bullet and promote best player from open bracket: MKP Leenock ThorZain Heart are no brainer And then 4 from Killer Select, theSTC, the 8 current seeds, Someone from EG or Root etc The point is to make best of a bad situation, not by try to make a bad situation unsalvageable by trying to stuff their "North American Invite-Only Qualifier" (which is where the current seeds are based on apparently. BTW: Gix actually lost in the first round, or forfeited, in that, so his seed is based on him being invited to a qualifier and not win a single map) into something it clearly was not meant to. ROFL. giX missed the WB matches and went to LB where he fought through everyone and was 1 match alway from making Arena. And guess who he beat on the way? Heart!!! The no brainer invite. They still seeded someone who lost in losers bracket of a NA only qualifier into the groupstage of one of the most prestigious tournaments in the world (at least before this lineup, which is their weakest in over 1.5 years). That's a "no brainer" invite? Someone who has a sub 50% winrate over the past 5 months with losses to pokebunny, trimaster, and drewbie. Yea ok.
Yeah, please read what I was responding to. He said Heart was a no brainer invite...
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On August 23 2012 04:07 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 04:00 ragz_gt wrote:On August 23 2012 03:44 vthree wrote:On August 23 2012 03:37 ragz_gt wrote:On August 23 2012 03:29 vthree wrote:On August 23 2012 03:25 ragz_gt wrote:On August 23 2012 03:19 vthree wrote:On August 23 2012 03:09 ohampatu wrote:On August 23 2012 02:53 Xeris wrote:
Saying "its not their fault they're invited" is like an insult. At least it appears to me to be an insult in that you're saying they shouldn't be invited because it's "not the right way."
What, to you, would be the right way?
It seems like the best method of inviting players is based on performance in your events. Therefore:
Invite 17-32 place at Arena
Invite the next highest people on the list from the Arena qualifiers
It seems like MLG followed the most objective criteria. What way would be better in your opinion? Not like MLG can just afford to fly in random invites, they don't have infinite money The best method? Well, these spots were meant for 8 kespa players, so they were never intended to be based off seeds of their qualifier, they were their to invite the big names. Now we realize that the big names they originally wanted couldn't come. In my head, it only makes logical sense to invite the equivalent of what Kespa would have brought. Big high caliber players/names. Instead they took the seeding method, which is a viable option and makes sense based off their seeds, but the bad one. Those 8 spots were worth about 20k watchers. Your players aren't gonna bring 20k watchers, see my point. Not trying to bash, just using the logics from a business standpoint and fan standpoint. Actually, if they just wanted viewers, they should just have Idra vs Stephano. Kind of funny that GSL gets shiat on for inviting big name foreigners to draw more viewers. And MLG gets shiat for giving spots to 'no names' who did well in the qualifiers. GSL for inviting big name player who are bad. MLG for giving spots to 'no names' who are bad. Solution, invite better players, for both case. (There was not much outrage for GSL seed to NaNiwa / Polt / viOLet / ThorZaIN besides the standard "against any seed" crowd, as opposite to seed to Huk / IdrA ) So there are 3 non-arena seeds. Who would get them? MKP, Leenock AND??? Nonono.... they ALREADY messed up by this time, as my earlier post suggested: On August 23 2012 03:07 ragz_gt wrote:
It's not like MLG doesn't know they messed up royally, which is why they hid the invites for as long as possible (and a couple extra days anyway). The question is why they reserved 8 seeds for KeSPA player they obviously expected to get when it's even more obviously not going to happen. It's like reserve a 8 seats at a restaurant without confirming and hope 8 people you know would just show up. Except 100x worse. Why would they just randomly reserve 8 spot BEFORE they can confirm they can GET 8 people worthy of seeding? Maybe Kespa did promise to send players and backed out? Players withdraw from events all the time. Leenock withdraw from Arena. Like you said, they were already in a bad spot. And any invites would have been seen in a negative light. And you said 'invite better players'. So whom would you have invited? They could just bite the bullet and promote best player from open bracket: MKP Leenock ThorZain Heart are no brainer And then 4 from Killer Select, theSTC, the 8 current seeds, Someone from EG or Root etc The point is to make best of a bad situation, not by try to make a bad situation unsalvageable by trying to stuff their "North American Invite-Only Qualifier" (which is where the current seeds are based on apparently. BTW: Gix actually lost in the first round, or forfeited, in that, so his seed is based on him being invited to a qualifier and not win a single map) into something it clearly was not meant to. ROFL. giX missed the WB matches and went to LB where he fought through everyone and was 1 match alway from making Arena. And guess who he beat on the way? Heart!!! The no brainer invite. And the problem is the term 'best' player from open bracket. For the first few, there is probably universal agreement (MKP, Leenock,), it becomes a little muddy after that. With MLGs method, it is very clear cut.
Agreed... this seems to be the most democratic way of determining seedings.
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inb4 idra complains that wcs and mlg are running at the same time and why he was eliminated in both. sad kespa players can't go, I am sure they could have at least sent players from KT, don't see much hope for the future of this partnership.
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On August 23 2012 04:07 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 04:00 ragz_gt wrote:On August 23 2012 03:44 vthree wrote:On August 23 2012 03:37 ragz_gt wrote:On August 23 2012 03:29 vthree wrote:On August 23 2012 03:25 ragz_gt wrote:On August 23 2012 03:19 vthree wrote:On August 23 2012 03:09 ohampatu wrote:On August 23 2012 02:53 Xeris wrote:
Saying "its not their fault they're invited" is like an insult. At least it appears to me to be an insult in that you're saying they shouldn't be invited because it's "not the right way."
What, to you, would be the right way?
It seems like the best method of inviting players is based on performance in your events. Therefore:
Invite 17-32 place at Arena
Invite the next highest people on the list from the Arena qualifiers
It seems like MLG followed the most objective criteria. What way would be better in your opinion? Not like MLG can just afford to fly in random invites, they don't have infinite money The best method? Well, these spots were meant for 8 kespa players, so they were never intended to be based off seeds of their qualifier, they were their to invite the big names. Now we realize that the big names they originally wanted couldn't come. In my head, it only makes logical sense to invite the equivalent of what Kespa would have brought. Big high caliber players/names. Instead they took the seeding method, which is a viable option and makes sense based off their seeds, but the bad one. Those 8 spots were worth about 20k watchers. Your players aren't gonna bring 20k watchers, see my point. Not trying to bash, just using the logics from a business standpoint and fan standpoint. Actually, if they just wanted viewers, they should just have Idra vs Stephano. Kind of funny that GSL gets shiat on for inviting big name foreigners to draw more viewers. And MLG gets shiat for giving spots to 'no names' who did well in the qualifiers. GSL for inviting big name player who are bad. MLG for giving spots to 'no names' who are bad. Solution, invite better players, for both case. (There was not much outrage for GSL seed to NaNiwa / Polt / viOLet / ThorZaIN besides the standard "against any seed" crowd, as opposite to seed to Huk / IdrA ) So there are 3 non-arena seeds. Who would get them? MKP, Leenock AND??? Nonono.... they ALREADY messed up by this time, as my earlier post suggested: On August 23 2012 03:07 ragz_gt wrote:
It's not like MLG doesn't know they messed up royally, which is why they hid the invites for as long as possible (and a couple extra days anyway). The question is why they reserved 8 seeds for KeSPA player they obviously expected to get when it's even more obviously not going to happen. It's like reserve a 8 seats at a restaurant without confirming and hope 8 people you know would just show up. Except 100x worse. Why would they just randomly reserve 8 spot BEFORE they can confirm they can GET 8 people worthy of seeding? Maybe Kespa did promise to send players and backed out? Players withdraw from events all the time. Leenock withdraw from Arena. Like you said, they were already in a bad spot. And any invites would have been seen in a negative light. And you said 'invite better players'. So whom would you have invited? They could just bite the bullet and promote best player from open bracket: MKP Leenock ThorZain Heart are no brainer And then 4 from Killer Select, theSTC, the 8 current seeds, Someone from EG or Root etc The point is to make best of a bad situation, not by try to make a bad situation unsalvageable by trying to stuff their "North American Invite-Only Qualifier" (which is where the current seeds are based on apparently. BTW: Gix actually lost in the first round, or forfeited, in that, so his seed is based on him being invited to a qualifier and not win a single map) into something it clearly was not meant to. ROFL. giX missed the WB matches and went to LB where he fought through everyone and was 1 match alway from making Arena. And guess who he beat on the way? Heart!!! The no brainer invite. And the problem is the term 'best' player from open bracket. For the first few, there is probably universal agreement (MKP, Leenock,), it becomes a little muddy after that. With MLGs method, it is very clear cut.
See above correction re giX.
How is inviting people who failed to move on to arena in a qualifier as seed for actual tournament group a good solution?
BTW, both MKP already qualified for Arena with his MLG spring champ result. And giX, Caliber, binski, obviously did not qualify for the Arena. What's the reasoning of choosing someone who failed to qualify as basis of seed over someone who already qualified?
The goal is not to make it "clear cut", is to get it right, or as close to as possible. You can make a arbitrary qualification that's "clear cut", but it's pretty worthless when it says giX, Caliber, binski is a better seed than ThorZaiN or Heart. It's like saying Juan Pierre is a better baseball player than Ryan Braun because he have a better average.
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Group D looks so boring  Its been a while since I have seen such a weak group in a serious tournament. All the NA seeds will get destroyed so hard and nobody will care.
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LoL will carry the event, no worries.
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After i look at the bracket in GSL ups n downs, and then I look at this bracket. This is just meh, but well at least we got Stephano.
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On August 23 2012 04:17 Waxangel wrote:
from a stream-viewers perspective, this could be the first time in almost two years that IEM has a better event than MLG.... besides the 3AM start, anyway
that is definitely true. But i have to say the IEM Cologne line up was really sick this time!
A lot better than it used to be.
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ROFL! Gaulzi is in the open bracket, dude is gonna get crushed when everyone just blind counters his cannon rushes.
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Remember that once you add in the players from the open bracket these groups will look a lot more intimidating also.
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On August 23 2012 04:18 kommunalka wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 04:07 vthree wrote:On August 23 2012 04:00 ragz_gt wrote:On August 23 2012 03:44 vthree wrote:On August 23 2012 03:37 ragz_gt wrote:On August 23 2012 03:29 vthree wrote:On August 23 2012 03:25 ragz_gt wrote:On August 23 2012 03:19 vthree wrote:On August 23 2012 03:09 ohampatu wrote:On August 23 2012 02:53 Xeris wrote:
Saying "its not their fault they're invited" is like an insult. At least it appears to me to be an insult in that you're saying they shouldn't be invited because it's "not the right way."
What, to you, would be the right way?
It seems like the best method of inviting players is based on performance in your events. Therefore:
Invite 17-32 place at Arena
Invite the next highest people on the list from the Arena qualifiers
It seems like MLG followed the most objective criteria. What way would be better in your opinion? Not like MLG can just afford to fly in random invites, they don't have infinite money The best method? Well, these spots were meant for 8 kespa players, so they were never intended to be based off seeds of their qualifier, they were their to invite the big names. Now we realize that the big names they originally wanted couldn't come. In my head, it only makes logical sense to invite the equivalent of what Kespa would have brought. Big high caliber players/names. Instead they took the seeding method, which is a viable option and makes sense based off their seeds, but the bad one. Those 8 spots were worth about 20k watchers. Your players aren't gonna bring 20k watchers, see my point. Not trying to bash, just using the logics from a business standpoint and fan standpoint. Actually, if they just wanted viewers, they should just have Idra vs Stephano. Kind of funny that GSL gets shiat on for inviting big name foreigners to draw more viewers. And MLG gets shiat for giving spots to 'no names' who did well in the qualifiers. GSL for inviting big name player who are bad. MLG for giving spots to 'no names' who are bad. Solution, invite better players, for both case. (There was not much outrage for GSL seed to NaNiwa / Polt / viOLet / ThorZaIN besides the standard "against any seed" crowd, as opposite to seed to Huk / IdrA ) So there are 3 non-arena seeds. Who would get them? MKP, Leenock AND??? Nonono.... they ALREADY messed up by this time, as my earlier post suggested: On August 23 2012 03:07 ragz_gt wrote:
It's not like MLG doesn't know they messed up royally, which is why they hid the invites for as long as possible (and a couple extra days anyway). The question is why they reserved 8 seeds for KeSPA player they obviously expected to get when it's even more obviously not going to happen. It's like reserve a 8 seats at a restaurant without confirming and hope 8 people you know would just show up. Except 100x worse. Why would they just randomly reserve 8 spot BEFORE they can confirm they can GET 8 people worthy of seeding? Maybe Kespa did promise to send players and backed out? Players withdraw from events all the time. Leenock withdraw from Arena. Like you said, they were already in a bad spot. And any invites would have been seen in a negative light. And you said 'invite better players'. So whom would you have invited? They could just bite the bullet and promote best player from open bracket: MKP Leenock ThorZain Heart are no brainer And then 4 from Killer Select, theSTC, the 8 current seeds, Someone from EG or Root etc The point is to make best of a bad situation, not by try to make a bad situation unsalvageable by trying to stuff their "North American Invite-Only Qualifier" (which is where the current seeds are based on apparently. BTW: Gix actually lost in the first round, or forfeited, in that, so his seed is based on him being invited to a qualifier and not win a single map) into something it clearly was not meant to. ROFL. giX missed the WB matches and went to LB where he fought through everyone and was 1 match alway from making Arena. And guess who he beat on the way? Heart!!! The no brainer invite. And the problem is the term 'best' player from open bracket. For the first few, there is probably universal agreement (MKP, Leenock,), it becomes a little muddy after that. With MLGs method, it is very clear cut. Agreed... this seems to be the most democratic way of determining seedings.
The funny thing is that due to NA getting fewer spots in the Arena due to poor performance in recent seasons, it actually has an advantage when the tiebreaker goes past the Arena results, since 7th-9th in NA Invite Qualifier > 10th in EU or KR Invite Qualifier (but in order to get that far, there were several EU and KR players from the Arena who couldn't make it).
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75
EPT
