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On August 17 2012 20:36 WaesumNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 20:33 Zarahtra wrote:On August 17 2012 20:25 WaesumNinja wrote:On August 17 2012 20:11 Thylacine wrote:On August 17 2012 00:11 Talin wrote:On August 17 2012 00:06 Hypemeup wrote:
Nah man they are pretty good on Free5base maps vs clumped air units!
Funny the other huge Seeker missles vs clumped zerg air was also on that map. Only being effective against clumped up groups of units tends to be the norm for all kinds of area of effect damage. Yes, but unlike Fungal and Storm you can simply run away from a HSM or just move the unit that it is attracted to and only that unit will take damage. That's why its fucking shit compared to storm and fungal. Oh, and the funny thing with fungal is that if you don't split perfectly before it lands you are guaranteed to die since you will remain clumped up. Balance, balance, balance... Yes, but unlike terran, protoss and zerg are not as well equipped to eliminate the threat of casters. Templars have feedback, yes, but emp is a more efficient way to eliminate the energy of infestors (several infestors at once, most of the time) while still having longer range than said Fungal. HSM deals more damage than both of those spells combined, and dishes it out much faster. Is also delivered by a flying unit that seems to be getting a speed buff in the near future (potentially). "Just move" the unit that it's attracted to isn't as easy as you think when you got a lot of shit to deal with at the same time. If you are going to be EMPing those infestors, your ghosts are getting shelled by broods(+ splash from tanks). Not really if you keep your ghosts cloaked and keep overseers at bay.
And how do you exactly keep those overseers at bay? At 50 gas a pop, risking your whole viking fleet to snipe them is at best insanely risky.
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On August 17 2012 20:38 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 20:36 WaesumNinja wrote:On August 17 2012 20:33 Zarahtra wrote:On August 17 2012 20:25 WaesumNinja wrote:On August 17 2012 20:11 Thylacine wrote:On August 17 2012 00:11 Talin wrote:On August 17 2012 00:06 Hypemeup wrote:
Nah man they are pretty good on Free5base maps vs clumped air units!
Funny the other huge Seeker missles vs clumped zerg air was also on that map. Only being effective against clumped up groups of units tends to be the norm for all kinds of area of effect damage. Yes, but unlike Fungal and Storm you can simply run away from a HSM or just move the unit that it is attracted to and only that unit will take damage. That's why its fucking shit compared to storm and fungal. Oh, and the funny thing with fungal is that if you don't split perfectly before it lands you are guaranteed to die since you will remain clumped up. Balance, balance, balance... Yes, but unlike terran, protoss and zerg are not as well equipped to eliminate the threat of casters. Templars have feedback, yes, but emp is a more efficient way to eliminate the energy of infestors (several infestors at once, most of the time) while still having longer range than said Fungal. HSM deals more damage than both of those spells combined, and dishes it out much faster. Is also delivered by a flying unit that seems to be getting a speed buff in the near future (potentially). "Just move" the unit that it's attracted to isn't as easy as you think when you got a lot of shit to deal with at the same time. If you are going to be EMPing those infestors, your ghosts are getting shelled by broods(+ splash from tanks). Not really if you keep your ghosts cloaked and keep overseers at bay. And how do you exactly keep those overseers at bay? At 50 gas a pop, risking your whole viking fleet to snipe them is at best insanely risky.
I don't think your mentality is helping you play the game here.
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On August 17 2012 20:39 WaesumNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 20:38 Zarahtra wrote:On August 17 2012 20:36 WaesumNinja wrote:On August 17 2012 20:33 Zarahtra wrote:On August 17 2012 20:25 WaesumNinja wrote:On August 17 2012 20:11 Thylacine wrote:On August 17 2012 00:11 Talin wrote:On August 17 2012 00:06 Hypemeup wrote:
Nah man they are pretty good on Free5base maps vs clumped air units!
Funny the other huge Seeker missles vs clumped zerg air was also on that map. Only being effective against clumped up groups of units tends to be the norm for all kinds of area of effect damage. Yes, but unlike Fungal and Storm you can simply run away from a HSM or just move the unit that it is attracted to and only that unit will take damage. That's why its fucking shit compared to storm and fungal. Oh, and the funny thing with fungal is that if you don't split perfectly before it lands you are guaranteed to die since you will remain clumped up. Balance, balance, balance... Yes, but unlike terran, protoss and zerg are not as well equipped to eliminate the threat of casters. Templars have feedback, yes, but emp is a more efficient way to eliminate the energy of infestors (several infestors at once, most of the time) while still having longer range than said Fungal. HSM deals more damage than both of those spells combined, and dishes it out much faster. Is also delivered by a flying unit that seems to be getting a speed buff in the near future (potentially). "Just move" the unit that it's attracted to isn't as easy as you think when you got a lot of shit to deal with at the same time. If you are going to be EMPing those infestors, your ghosts are getting shelled by broods(+ splash from tanks). Not really if you keep your ghosts cloaked and keep overseers at bay. And how do you exactly keep those overseers at bay? At 50 gas a pop, risking your whole viking fleet to snipe them is at best insanely risky. I don't think your mentality is helping you play the game here.
It probably isn't, but your arguement is that you should basically:
Kill overseers to get ghosts in range of infestors to prevent fungal growths from landing on your vikings/ravens that are killing overseers. If you don't notice, it's an infinite circle.
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I'm calling bullshit. Ravens are bad, they said. This must be staged.
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On August 17 2012 20:42 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 20:39 WaesumNinja wrote:On August 17 2012 20:38 Zarahtra wrote:On August 17 2012 20:36 WaesumNinja wrote:On August 17 2012 20:33 Zarahtra wrote:On August 17 2012 20:25 WaesumNinja wrote:On August 17 2012 20:11 Thylacine wrote:On August 17 2012 00:11 Talin wrote:On August 17 2012 00:06 Hypemeup wrote:
Nah man they are pretty good on Free5base maps vs clumped air units!
Funny the other huge Seeker missles vs clumped zerg air was also on that map. Only being effective against clumped up groups of units tends to be the norm for all kinds of area of effect damage. Yes, but unlike Fungal and Storm you can simply run away from a HSM or just move the unit that it is attracted to and only that unit will take damage. That's why its fucking shit compared to storm and fungal. Oh, and the funny thing with fungal is that if you don't split perfectly before it lands you are guaranteed to die since you will remain clumped up. Balance, balance, balance... Yes, but unlike terran, protoss and zerg are not as well equipped to eliminate the threat of casters. Templars have feedback, yes, but emp is a more efficient way to eliminate the energy of infestors (several infestors at once, most of the time) while still having longer range than said Fungal. HSM deals more damage than both of those spells combined, and dishes it out much faster. Is also delivered by a flying unit that seems to be getting a speed buff in the near future (potentially). "Just move" the unit that it's attracted to isn't as easy as you think when you got a lot of shit to deal with at the same time. If you are going to be EMPing those infestors, your ghosts are getting shelled by broods(+ splash from tanks). Not really if you keep your ghosts cloaked and keep overseers at bay. And how do you exactly keep those overseers at bay? At 50 gas a pop, risking your whole viking fleet to snipe them is at best insanely risky. I don't think your mentality is helping you play the game here. It probably isn't, but your arguement is that you should basically: Kill overseers to get ghosts in range of infestors to prevent fungal growths from landing on your vikings/ravens that are killing overseers. If you don't notice, it's an infinite circle.
Are you telling me you want something that cannot be responded to? You know, the other player is a player too and he also has to have options, so of course there will be "a circle" that will connect eventually. You're making it sound like nothing you can do will be able to do anything, which becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
edit: added quote since someone got in faster than me :c
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On August 17 2012 20:45 WaesumNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 20:42 Zarahtra wrote:On August 17 2012 20:39 WaesumNinja wrote:On August 17 2012 20:38 Zarahtra wrote:On August 17 2012 20:36 WaesumNinja wrote:On August 17 2012 20:33 Zarahtra wrote:On August 17 2012 20:25 WaesumNinja wrote:On August 17 2012 20:11 Thylacine wrote:On August 17 2012 00:11 Talin wrote:On August 17 2012 00:06 Hypemeup wrote:
Nah man they are pretty good on Free5base maps vs clumped air units!
Funny the other huge Seeker missles vs clumped zerg air was also on that map. Only being effective against clumped up groups of units tends to be the norm for all kinds of area of effect damage. Yes, but unlike Fungal and Storm you can simply run away from a HSM or just move the unit that it is attracted to and only that unit will take damage. That's why its fucking shit compared to storm and fungal. Oh, and the funny thing with fungal is that if you don't split perfectly before it lands you are guaranteed to die since you will remain clumped up. Balance, balance, balance... Yes, but unlike terran, protoss and zerg are not as well equipped to eliminate the threat of casters. Templars have feedback, yes, but emp is a more efficient way to eliminate the energy of infestors (several infestors at once, most of the time) while still having longer range than said Fungal. HSM deals more damage than both of those spells combined, and dishes it out much faster. Is also delivered by a flying unit that seems to be getting a speed buff in the near future (potentially). "Just move" the unit that it's attracted to isn't as easy as you think when you got a lot of shit to deal with at the same time. If you are going to be EMPing those infestors, your ghosts are getting shelled by broods(+ splash from tanks). Not really if you keep your ghosts cloaked and keep overseers at bay. And how do you exactly keep those overseers at bay? At 50 gas a pop, risking your whole viking fleet to snipe them is at best insanely risky. I don't think your mentality is helping you play the game here. It probably isn't, but your arguement is that you should basically: Kill overseers to get ghosts in range of infestors to prevent fungal growths from landing on your vikings/ravens that are killing overseers. If you don't notice, it's an infinite circle. Are you telling me you want something that cannot be responded to? You know, the other player is a player too and he also has to have options, so of course there will be "a circle" that will connect eventually. You're making it sound like nothing you can do will be able to do anything, which becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. edit: added quote since someone got in faster than me :c
I'm saying, I don't particularly fancy risking the game on if the zerg player is watching the screen. A circle is all fine and dandy, such as ht vs ghost war, which is pretty similar. But the fact of the matter is, you don't instantly loose the game if one of your ghosts get feedback'd. You do, if the infestor catches the vikings just once.
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On August 17 2012 20:49 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 20:45 WaesumNinja wrote:On August 17 2012 20:42 Zarahtra wrote:On August 17 2012 20:39 WaesumNinja wrote:On August 17 2012 20:38 Zarahtra wrote:On August 17 2012 20:36 WaesumNinja wrote:On August 17 2012 20:33 Zarahtra wrote:On August 17 2012 20:25 WaesumNinja wrote:On August 17 2012 20:11 Thylacine wrote:On August 17 2012 00:11 Talin wrote:
[quote]
Only being effective against clumped up groups of units tends to be the norm for all kinds of area of effect damage. Yes, but unlike Fungal and Storm you can simply run away from a HSM or just move the unit that it is attracted to and only that unit will take damage. That's why its fucking shit compared to storm and fungal. Oh, and the funny thing with fungal is that if you don't split perfectly before it lands you are guaranteed to die since you will remain clumped up. Balance, balance, balance... Yes, but unlike terran, protoss and zerg are not as well equipped to eliminate the threat of casters. Templars have feedback, yes, but emp is a more efficient way to eliminate the energy of infestors (several infestors at once, most of the time) while still having longer range than said Fungal. HSM deals more damage than both of those spells combined, and dishes it out much faster. Is also delivered by a flying unit that seems to be getting a speed buff in the near future (potentially). "Just move" the unit that it's attracted to isn't as easy as you think when you got a lot of shit to deal with at the same time. If you are going to be EMPing those infestors, your ghosts are getting shelled by broods(+ splash from tanks). Not really if you keep your ghosts cloaked and keep overseers at bay. And how do you exactly keep those overseers at bay? At 50 gas a pop, risking your whole viking fleet to snipe them is at best insanely risky. I don't think your mentality is helping you play the game here. It probably isn't, but your arguement is that you should basically: Kill overseers to get ghosts in range of infestors to prevent fungal growths from landing on your vikings/ravens that are killing overseers. If you don't notice, it's an infinite circle. Are you telling me you want something that cannot be responded to? You know, the other player is a player too and he also has to have options, so of course there will be "a circle" that will connect eventually. You're making it sound like nothing you can do will be able to do anything, which becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. edit: added quote since someone got in faster than me :c I'm saying, I don't particularly fancy risking the game on if the zerg player is watching the screen. A circle is all fine and dandy, such as ht vs ghost war, which is pretty similar. But the fact of the matter is, you don't instantly loose the game if one of your ghosts get feedback'd. You do, if the infestor catches the vikings just once.
well, you would probably instantly lose if you lost all your broodlords to hsm as well. Why would you keep your vikings so close to each other so that they can die to "being fungaled once" when you are aware that there are infestors on the field?
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It's not really that hard to dodge fungal....one of my biggest peeves is when people say fungal can't be dodged, like wtf? You can't dodge a siege tank shot either but nobody is crying about it because the damage of a siege tank is instand and doesn't root for a bit. You dodge these things by actually taking precautions *BEFORE* you're hit, like, c'mon it really, really isn't that hard. I see progamers do it all the time although Fungal isn't flashy so casters tend to miss it but they often dodge fungals which end up hitting nothing.
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Glad to see the use of mass ravens which I believe Empire.Kas also did vs. NesTea which helped him secure a win. Maybe everyone will say that they don't suck anymore, they are really good for multiple situations but just don't seem to be used.
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On August 17 2012 20:42 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 20:39 WaesumNinja wrote:On August 17 2012 20:38 Zarahtra wrote:On August 17 2012 20:36 WaesumNinja wrote:On August 17 2012 20:33 Zarahtra wrote:On August 17 2012 20:25 WaesumNinja wrote:On August 17 2012 20:11 Thylacine wrote:On August 17 2012 00:11 Talin wrote:On August 17 2012 00:06 Hypemeup wrote:
Nah man they are pretty good on Free5base maps vs clumped air units!
Funny the other huge Seeker missles vs clumped zerg air was also on that map. Only being effective against clumped up groups of units tends to be the norm for all kinds of area of effect damage. Yes, but unlike Fungal and Storm you can simply run away from a HSM or just move the unit that it is attracted to and only that unit will take damage. That's why its fucking shit compared to storm and fungal. Oh, and the funny thing with fungal is that if you don't split perfectly before it lands you are guaranteed to die since you will remain clumped up. Balance, balance, balance... Yes, but unlike terran, protoss and zerg are not as well equipped to eliminate the threat of casters. Templars have feedback, yes, but emp is a more efficient way to eliminate the energy of infestors (several infestors at once, most of the time) while still having longer range than said Fungal. HSM deals more damage than both of those spells combined, and dishes it out much faster. Is also delivered by a flying unit that seems to be getting a speed buff in the near future (potentially). "Just move" the unit that it's attracted to isn't as easy as you think when you got a lot of shit to deal with at the same time. If you are going to be EMPing those infestors, your ghosts are getting shelled by broods(+ splash from tanks). Not really if you keep your ghosts cloaked and keep overseers at bay. And how do you exactly keep those overseers at bay? At 50 gas a pop, risking your whole viking fleet to snipe them is at best insanely risky. I don't think your mentality is helping you play the game here. It probably isn't, but your arguement is that you should basically: Kill overseers to get ghosts in range of infestors to prevent fungal growths from landing on your vikings/ravens that are killing overseers. If you don't notice, it's an infinite circle.
Exactly, it can go on and on and on because in the end nobody will dodge HSM perfectly just like nobody will EMP HTs perfectly.
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nestea played so bad in the but still epic :D
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United Kingdom12025 Posts
On August 17 2012 21:41 Ouija wrote:
Glad to see the use of mass ravens which I believe Empire.Kas also did vs. NesTea which helped him secure a win. Maybe everyone will say that they don't suck anymore, they are really good for multiple situations but just don't seem to be used.
I think it's because much like the ghost early on and even the Science Vessel in Starcraft nobody could really see the utility until somebody jumped in and showed the rest of the gamers that they could be used for good situations. People would build 1 during a 1/1/1 in TvP and maybe a load in late late game TvT but outside of that nobody ever bothered because for some reason amongst everybody people deemed the unit too useless to use.
The reason the raven isn't good solo is the same reason a ghost isn't good if you only have one of them. Alone they're weak but in numbers they have a lot of utility.
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wow taht was freaking epic
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On August 17 2012 22:18 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 21:41 Ouija wrote:
Glad to see the use of mass ravens which I believe Empire.Kas also did vs. NesTea which helped him secure a win. Maybe everyone will say that they don't suck anymore, they are really good for multiple situations but just don't seem to be used. I think it's because much like the ghost early on and even the Science Vessel in Starcraft nobody could really see the utility until somebody jumped in and showed the rest of the gamers that they could be used for good situations. People would build 1 during a 1/1/1 in TvP and maybe a load in late late game TvT but outside of that nobody ever bothered because for some reason amongst everybody people deemed the unit too useless to use. The reason the raven isn't good solo is the same reason a ghost isn't good if you only have one of them. Alone they're weak but in numbers they have a lot of utility.
.... holy shit.
1) The Science Vessel does not take up a production slot that is necessary. Sci Vessels are in a completely separate building. Medivacs are necessary to survive; you don't have them your Marines fucking flat out die.
2) Sci Vessels also don't take a bajillion upgrades to become halfway decent. Ravens do.
3) Sci Vessels are fast as shit and can outrun Scourge if you have a head start. Ravens are slow as hell.
4) Fungal Growth is in this game; it isn't in BW.
5) Sci Vessels have irradiate, a long range multipurpose spell that practically rapes everything it touches from a Z's perspective. It is undodgable on a single unit; its damage can only be mitigated. It is what Terrans use for late game caster sniping.
6) Sci Vessels also have very useful spells in EMP and Defensive Matrix, both which are almost equally as good as Irradiate, although a little bit more situational. The Raven has Auto Turret and Seeker Missile, both which are mediocore at best, and heavily rely on your opponent not being good at the game, and PDD which is only useful vs one type of unit.
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That clip looked exactly like every single TvZ I have ever won... If the Zerg is completely retarded and doesn't split, I win the game. If they do something besides attack move, I lose...
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On August 17 2012 17:26 Zarahtra wrote:
Ok this has been frustrating me quite a bit, people making the raven out to actually be a good unit, when it's infact a terrible unit. So why did Nestea loose?
But it's not. Which is why professional Terrans use it in the late-game almost every game when possible. It's a good unit, just like the carrier. Anyone who has used both of them in the super late-game versus Zerg will tell you that. The units themselves are fine, the problem is that getting either of them basically requires you to be playing on a map like this; they take SO much time to build up and get ready (energy/durable mats/hsm/etc. for Ravens, decent air upgrades+build time for carriers) that you just can't make them in 99.99% of games if you aren't on a map like Metro or WW, which is dumb.
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Well it is hard to split with brood lords, Even if some of those corruptors made it, he prolly would have been screwed.
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On August 17 2012 22:37 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Well it is hard to split with brood lords, Even if some of those corruptors made it, he prolly would have been screwed.
Actually if Nestea dodged properly the missile would chased them and not hit anything.
That said, it's hard to dodge stuff in big battle, same as fungal / storm (though those are instant)
The biggest advantage of HSM missile is that damage scales. With fungal / storm, it makes no different if you get hit by 1 or 10. With HSM, it's the difference between winning and losing (as Nestea showed). Mass raven is GREAT, anyone who got there would agree. The problem is you need at least 6+ of them for HSM to be effective, and it's not easy to get there.
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And if Nestea had casted them properly, he would have casted a missile or 2 on the corruptors to force them to mov and the other 4 on the Broodlords since most people issue a single massive move order to pull their air blobs back.
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United Kingdom12025 Posts
On August 17 2012 22:32 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 22:18 Qikz wrote:On August 17 2012 21:41 Ouija wrote:
Glad to see the use of mass ravens which I believe Empire.Kas also did vs. NesTea which helped him secure a win. Maybe everyone will say that they don't suck anymore, they are really good for multiple situations but just don't seem to be used. I think it's because much like the ghost early on and even the Science Vessel in Starcraft nobody could really see the utility until somebody jumped in and showed the rest of the gamers that they could be used for good situations. People would build 1 during a 1/1/1 in TvP and maybe a load in late late game TvT but outside of that nobody ever bothered because for some reason amongst everybody people deemed the unit too useless to use. The reason the raven isn't good solo is the same reason a ghost isn't good if you only have one of them. Alone they're weak but in numbers they have a lot of utility. .... holy shit. 1) The Science Vessel does not take up a production slot that is necessary. Sci Vessels are in a completely separate building. Medivacs are necessary to survive; you don't have them your Marines fucking flat out die. 2) Sci Vessels also don't take a bajillion upgrades to become halfway decent. Ravens do. 3) Sci Vessels are fast as shit and can outrun Scourge if you have a head start. Ravens are slow as hell. 4) Fungal Growth is in this game; it isn't in BW. 5) Sci Vessels have irradiate, a long range multipurpose spell that practically rapes everything it touches from a Z's perspective. It is undodgable on a single unit; its damage can only be mitigated. It is what Terrans use for late game caster sniping. 6) Sci Vessels also have very useful spells in EMP and Defensive Matrix, both which are almost equally as good as Irradiate, although a little bit more situational. The Raven has Auto Turret and Seeker Missile, both which are mediocore at best, and heavily rely on your opponent not being good at the game, and PDD which is only useful vs one type of unit.
I'm a Terran player and I know from experience that gas levels are high late game TvZ when you go for Marine/Tank/Medivac or MMM Tank. You can add more than one starport. You honestly don't need 50 medivacs with your army. It really isn't that necessary and you can build vikings and ravens at the same time.
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