EPTMVP´s epic Seeker Missiles versus Nestea on the Bo3 on Metropolis.
Day 9 is right: OMG
reddit: http://redd.it/yblcf
[Video] MVP´s Missles vs Nestea IEM
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Gollomor
Austria51 Posts
MVP´s epic Seeker Missiles versus Nestea on the Bo3 on Metropolis. Day 9 is right: OMG reddit: http://redd.it/yblcf | ||
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AgentChaos
United Kingdom4569 Posts
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uikos
United States132 Posts
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ZXRP
South Africa114 Posts
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aintz
Canada5624 Posts
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CaptainCrush
United States785 Posts
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
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Xpace
United States2209 Posts
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ragz_gt
9172 Posts
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X3GoldDot
Malaysia3840 Posts
. . . . SUP?! | ||
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Vandrad
Germany951 Posts
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Azula.
4 Posts
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Hypemeup
Sweden2783 Posts
On August 16 2012 23:59 X3GoldDot wrote: "ravens are useless", they said..... . . . . SUP?! Nah man they are pretty good on Free5base maps vs clumped air units! Funny the other huge Seeker missles vs clumped zerg air was also on that map. | ||
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Thinasy
2856 Posts
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CaptainCrush
United States785 Posts
On August 17 2012 00:05 Azula. wrote: Meanwhile, coLqxc's blog "why ravens sucks" is rank 1 on reddit Well they do still kinda suck TBH, that was an absolute shitload of energy that he had to save up in order to even try that. If those missles didnt connect like they did then it was likely game over for MVP. It's pretty risky and still hard to pull off, otherwise you would see terrans doing it all the time.... | ||
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Hypemeup
Sweden2783 Posts
On August 17 2012 00:07 CaptainCrush wrote: Well they do still kinda suck TBH, that was an absolute shitload of energy that he had to save up in order to even try that. If those missles didnt connect like they did then it was likely game over for MVP. It's pretty risky and still hard to pull off, otherwise you would see terrans doing it all the time.... Yeah, this is the same as that other game with I think MKP vs some zerg on that very same map destroying a huge (clumped) army and suddenly zergs and protoss players are screaming "use ravens noobs". Ravens would be standard if all maps looked like Metropolis or Whirlwind. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On August 17 2012 00:06 Hypemeup wrote: Nah man they are pretty good on Free5base maps vs clumped air units! Funny the other huge Seeker missles vs clumped zerg air was also on that map. Only being effective against clumped up groups of units tends to be the norm for all kinds of area of effect damage. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On August 17 2012 00:07 CaptainCrush wrote: Well they do still kinda suck TBH, that was an absolute shitload of energy that he had to save up in order to even try that. If those missles didnt connect like they did then it was likely game over for MVP. It's pretty risky and still hard to pull off, otherwise you would see terrans doing it all the time.... Well wouldn't it be very OP if it was easy to pull off? | ||
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spbelky
United States623 Posts
"ya, i know lol" "ok gg, see you in a bit lol" "later lol, gg" | ||
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phisku
Belgium864 Posts
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ragz_gt
9172 Posts
On August 17 2012 00:15 phisku wrote: Wow a spell that rely on zerg clumping all his unit together just like a vortex, so epic XD. Actually worse than Vortex... Vortex is instant, so just need to catch the moment when army is clumped. Seeker missile rely on Zerg clump up, not run away when see them coming, or try to kamikazi. The big difference between missile and other AOE spell is that damage stack. So more missile = more damage, which is not true for EMP/Storm/Fungal, make them extremely scalable. | ||
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freeshooter
United States477 Posts
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PrAeToR.FeNiX
Canada361 Posts
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MadNeSs
Denmark1507 Posts
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anApple
Singapore275 Posts
On August 16 2012 23:59 X3GoldDot wrote: "ravens are useless", they said..... . . . . SUP?! Should probably watch the game first instead of putting out such an ignorant statement. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On August 16 2012 23:59 X3GoldDot wrote: "ravens are useless", they said..... . . . . SUP?! "splitting units is useless", they said.... . . . . Hi! | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
That said, it makes for nice youtube video's ^^ | ||
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
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Wildmoon
Thailand4189 Posts
On August 17 2012 00:23 anApple wrote: Should probably watch the game first instead of putting out such an ignorant statement. It's actually true that raven is not useless. It has its use but it's just not as good as it should have been. | ||
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
On August 16 2012 23:50 ZXRP wrote: Hate to nitpick, but there is a spelling error in the title. Should be missiles. normally people say "should of been missiles" there | ||
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ragz_gt
9172 Posts
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Aunvilgod
2653 Posts
On August 17 2012 00:23 MadNeSs wrote: Look like MVP just shissled him with his missle. Oh yeah shissle me with your missle | ||
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renaissanceMAN
United States1840 Posts
gotta clean my keyboard brb | ||
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ZXRP
South Africa114 Posts
On August 17 2012 00:37 sixfour wrote: normally people say "should of been missiles" there You mean "should have been" surely? | ||
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Bazzyrick
United Kingdom361 Posts
On August 17 2012 00:13 spbelky wrote: Ignoring the Raven debate, I simply love this video for the response by MVP after the game is over. He walks over to Nestea and is all, "dude i just make you look silly" "ya, i know lol" "ok gg, see you in a bit lol" "later lol, gg" Who are you to put words in the God's mouth? They were actually probably just laughing at how OP seeker missiles are. | ||
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TsGBruzze
Sweden1190 Posts
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Gollomor
Austria51 Posts
I personly think that nestea dont play good at this game. MVP does nice drops to get supply for ravens and wait for the perfect stacking moment by nestea to use his Seeker Missiles with 100% of there Power. And everybody who looks often GSL or other games with MVP knows that MVP loves to play Air in the super late game. And that his Macro is very very strong against every single race. So I think it was an epic moment in the Starcraft Scene, and gg wp to IM.MVP. | ||
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Scurvy
United States117 Posts
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sam05396
United States783 Posts
On August 17 2012 00:05 Azula. wrote: Meanwhile, coLqxc's blog "why ravens sucks" is rank 1 on reddit meanwhile someone sees something happen once and it is now the answer, doesnt even deserve a thread on the battle.net forums | ||
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Entirety
1423 Posts
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Luepert
United States1933 Posts
On August 17 2012 00:37 sixfour wrote: normally people say "should | ||
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FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
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Dunmer
United Kingdom568 Posts
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Ccx55
Sweden62 Posts
Anyway, just because the king of SC2 can use ravens like this (just like the king can use ghost snipe from Blizzard Cup), doesn't mean any scrub can do it. | ||
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reki-
Netherlands327 Posts
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SolidMoose
United States1240 Posts
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Sein
United States1811 Posts
Remember that Shakuras Plateau game? Just wait for the next patch. =) "We feel that Ravens too stronk..." | ||
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Hypemeup
Sweden2783 Posts
On August 17 2012 06:35 SolidMoose wrote: One day zergs will split their units and the Raven will suck again No dude that would require micro. Zergs dont micro, trust me, a mad protoss player told me this! | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
Yes splitting is a b1tch for the seeker missile, but so it is for fungal. | ||
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Zergrusher
United States562 Posts
the fact that back in BW a Foriegn terran made a thread or something like that saying that Science vessels were "useless" and then once people figured out how to use them... they became used frequently. doesn't that sound very farmiliar? | ||
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Benjamin99
4176 Posts
On August 17 2012 06:39 Zergrusher wrote: want to know whats really ironic? the fact that back in BW a Foriegn terran made a thread or something like that saying that Science vessels were "useless" and then once people figured out how to use them... they became used frequently. doesn't that sound very farmiliar? lol is that a true story haha? | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
because the game wont end in two seconds and gave nestea(zerg) to micro minimize damage and intensify the game. (pre-emptive micro-spreading vs aoe < real time micro-picking out irradiated) | ||
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Sein
United States1811 Posts
On August 17 2012 06:39 Zergrusher wrote: want to know whats really ironic? the fact that back in BW a Foriegn terran made a thread or something like that saying that Science vessels were "useless" and then once people figured out how to use them... they became used frequently. doesn't that sound very farmiliar? When was that? For some reason, I remember always seeing a bunch of SV's in TvZ and I think it was around 2001 when I started watching a lot of BW, at least the Korean tournaments. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12023 Posts
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Denzil
United Kingdom4193 Posts
On August 17 2012 00:06 Hypemeup wrote: Nah man they are pretty good on Free5base maps vs clumped air units! Funny the other huge Seeker missles vs clumped zerg air was also on that map. Best Terran is the world uses successfully against one of the best zergs "THIS WILL NEVER WORK AT MY LEVEL AGAINST A SKILLED OPPONENT" | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
If that's true that's hilarious lol. | ||
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Zergrusher
United States562 Posts
yeah lol reading QXC's thing gave me flashback syndrome/De ja vu | ||
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Bluerain
United States348 Posts
On August 17 2012 05:39 sam05396 wrote: meanwhile someone sees something happen once and it is now the answer, doesnt even deserve a thread on the battle.net forums meanwhile someone sees something happen once performed by MVP and dismisses as too hard to execute and not practical | ||
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MyLastSerenade
Germany710 Posts
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Godwrath
Spain10131 Posts
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Zergrusher
United States562 Posts
Its true and yes it is hilarious XD | ||
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garlicface
Canada4196 Posts
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On August 17 2012 06:39 Zergrusher wrote: want to know whats really ironic? the fact that back in BW a Foriegn terran made a thread or something like that saying that Science vessels were "useless" and then once people figured out how to use them... they became used frequently. doesn't that sound very farmiliar? Except SK/Soulkey was using the Sci Vessel in a completely separate building; the issue is that not only are Ravens really bad in general (slow, turn speed is bad, and they need to store up energy to use their mediocre at best abilities), they also tie up a building that produces the much needed Medivacs to combat Infestors. There's alot of key differences between the Ravens and Sci Vessel that will always make the Sci Vessel much more useful. One being that Sci Vessel has an all-purpose killing tool in Irradiate that has multiple uses (kills units, harass workers, can snipe Defilers with them, etc.) while the Raven has no multi-purpose spell. | ||
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knicyo
177 Posts
'When will the missiles come? WHEN WILL MVP SHOOT!?!?!' and then when you heard Day9 scream, you knew that shit was about to go down!! Awesome game, both games against NesTea was cool, recommend watching. | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
On August 17 2012 07:13 superstartran wrote: Except SK/Soulkey was using the Sci Vessel in a completely separate building; the issue is that not only are Ravens really bad in general (slow, turn speed is bad, and they need to store up energy to use their mediocre at best abilities), they also tie up a building that produces the much needed Medivacs to combat Infestors. There's alot of key differences between the Ravens and Sci Vessel that will always make the Sci Vessel much more useful. One being that Sci Vessel has an all-purpose killing tool in Irradiate that has multiple uses (kills units, harass workers, can snipe Defilers with them, etc.) while the Raven has no multi-purpose spell. eraser!!!! | ||
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pmp10
3354 Posts
This thread is an excellent example why units and abilities that desperately need a redesign will never get it. As long as they can be used in any circumstance a horde of people will proclaim them fine and balanced but underused and not figured-out. A real shame but perhaps it is what must happen when a game is balanced by measuring the outrage of the spectators. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On August 17 2012 07:16 pmp10 wrote: It's such a sad picture that can be garnered from posts here. This thread is an excellent example why units and abilities that desperately need a redesign will never get it. As long as they can be used in any circumstance a horde of people will proclaim them fine and balanced but underused and not figured-out. A real shame but perhaps it is what must happen when a game is balanced by measuring the outrage of the spectators. Pretty much; Nestea engaged in a terrible position and made Blords on a map that is notoriously bad for utilizing Blords (mainly because you can get backstabbed by Medivac drops/nuke harassment so easily and can't react). | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On August 17 2012 06:44 jinorazi wrote: am i the only one thinking: "i wish those were irradiates" because the game wont end in two seconds and gave nestea(zerg) to micro minimize damage and intensify the game. (pre-emptive micro-spreading vs aoe < real time micro-picking out irradiated) You're not alone. This is in the exactly same way as FG, just retarded. One split second and the game is over. Blizzard really should focus on, like you said, real time micro, rather than pre-emptive micro. | ||
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Cirqueenflex
499 Posts
And since both Kas and MVP went for Ravens late game, the unit seems to be way better than people think they are. As those two players are top-notch and have a huge amount of experience | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 17 2012 07:18 superstartran wrote: Pretty much; Nestea engaged in a terrible position and made Blords on a map that is notoriously bad for utilizing Blords (mainly because you can get backstabbed by Medivac drops/nuke harassment so easily and can't react). The map is even worse for any sort of ground play. And well, that's what happens when you move in SC2. You clump and respread and clump and respread etc. It's exactly the same principle like banelings or infestors or storms vs marines and marauders... | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On August 17 2012 07:36 Cirqueenflex wrote: to all of you demanding that the raven is still a bad unit and you need that Starport for Medivacs/Vikings - Kas did slay NesTea 2:0. And he did it with a ton of Ravens. And he did not win because he was lucky and cought tightly stacked air units with Seeker Missiler, instead he mostly used Auto-Turrets and PDDs. How did he get up that many Ravens? Firstly, he got more than one Starport. And second, he did not build many Medivacs. As weird as this may sound, Terran can actually fight, even if not every single Marine has his own Medivac. And since both Kas and MVP went for Ravens late game, the unit seems to be way better than people think they are. As those two players are top-notch and have a huge amount of experience I only saw the Metropolis game Kas vs Nestea, but that game aswell as this moment, Nestea was out of position with his infestors. After Nestea had forced a ton of vikings and ravens, Nestea kept going BL+corruptor rather than ultra switch. Kas engaged when Nestea's air force was between his 3rd and 4th and Kas came from the side and sniped a ton of stuff before Nestea could respond. That's not really a matter of ravens being good, that's just Nestea playing rather poor. Frankly that game, I don't feel the ravens did that much, if all those ravens had been vikings, I still think Kas would've won(except I suppose Nestea wouldn't have gone the 2nd round of air units). | ||
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jmbthirteen
United States10734 Posts
Honestly, if MVP just put all those resources into Vikings instead of Ravens, and controlled properly like he did with the Ravens, he would have crushed Nestea just as hard. Just wouldn't have been as pretty. | ||
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bLecK
Australia625 Posts
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Kal_rA
United States2925 Posts
On August 17 2012 08:06 bLecK wrote: You're all missing one crucial detail... MVP's mouth was open. hahahahhahahhahahahahha :o | ||
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Zergrusher
United States562 Posts
On August 17 2012 07:13 superstartran wrote: Except SK/Soulkey was using the Sci Vessel in a completely separate building; the issue is that not only are Ravens really bad in general (slow, turn speed is bad, and they need to store up energy to use their mediocre at best abilities), they also tie up a building that produces the much needed Medivacs to combat Infestors. There's alot of key differences between the Ravens and Sci Vessel that will always make the Sci Vessel much more useful. One being that Sci Vessel has an all-purpose killing tool in Irradiate that has multiple uses (kills units, harass workers, can snipe Defilers with them, etc.) while the Raven has no multi-purpose spell. the point is that its like de ja vu | ||
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3D-Swifty
England69 Posts
Critics say that it shouldn't work and nestea should not have clumped. But Its always gonna happen, how often have we seen the full fungal growth radius been utilized vs a bio force, in pro matches. | ||
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nyaru267
United States117 Posts
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amazingoopah
United States1925 Posts
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GhostFiber
Australia88 Posts
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Rah
United States973 Posts
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calvinL
Canada416 Posts
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Dunmer
United Kingdom568 Posts
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naastyOne
491 Posts
I call that a fate. | ||
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Zergrusher
United States562 Posts
On August 17 2012 08:48 calvinL wrote: I like how people here are already shitting on QXC's article before even reading it, or the circumstances of why it would only work on metropolis and not any other map in the map pool right now. His article doesn't even go against what MVP did, as there is no other map that lets you easily turtle on 5 bases while only defending 2 thin chokes to buy you enough time to get ravens out. did you see my posts? litterally what QXC said is de ja vu | ||
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Flamingo777
United States1190 Posts
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InfusedTT.DaZe
Romania693 Posts
On August 17 2012 00:13 spbelky wrote: Ignoring the Raven debate, I simply love this video for the response by MVP after the game is over. He walks over to Nestea and is all, "dude i just make you look silly" "ya, i know lol" "ok gg, see you in a bit lol" "later lol, gg" and later he was elimiated by kas from iem :D | ||
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Daogin
Canada2308 Posts
first he destroys him with a million ghosts, now seeker missiles... Poor nestea haha | ||
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boomudead1
United States186 Posts
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Wafflelisk
Canada1061 Posts
Mvp was more like.. "sorry bro :D" | ||
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
On August 17 2012 00:06 Hypemeup wrote: Nah man they are pretty good on Free5base maps vs clumped air units! Funny the other huge Seeker missles vs clumped zerg air was also on that map. Just because Terrans haven't felt the need to come up with smooth transitions into Ravens doesn't mean the unit sucks. I mean we see Carriers from time to time in PvZ on different maps, if you can get to a unit that takes almost 27 minutes to build and needs Upgrades you would never get, you can get to Ravens. I never understood why Terran would not always get a few Ravens, if nothing else they can harass and prevent Marines from stepping onto landmines. | ||
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lost_artz
United States366 Posts
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
Nestea vs Kas First off, lets go to 19:48. This engagement is simply terrible. His infestor control is pretty much non-existant, I mean he walks them into melee range of rines... Then he has no corruptors to deal with a single viking. Ok Nestea still wins that fight, but then overextends, sending all his BLs forward without backup and they get slaughtered along with 2 extra corruptors. 21:56, Nestea has made his air fleet again. I'm guessing the reasoning behind it is that he saw a lot of rauders. Please take note of all the infestors in that army, a total of 0. 22:07 the 2nd wave begins. Kas has macro'd well and has like 20ish vikings and 2x ravens. 1 seeker gets off(and doesn't kill anything, though I'm sure a lot of corruptors are badly hurt). Lack of infestors allows Kas to gets his rines under the corruptors and he wins the viking/corruptor war(admittedly the rines just helped, they didn't win it). Nestea looses his 2nd wave of BLs. At 23:10, nestea finally does a somewhat of a air -> ground transition and massacres everything on ground that isn't a bunker or a PF. He kills 2 expansions(though not stopping mining from 1 of them). At 25:39 finally after a ton of fail it seems like Nestea can't loose this game, after all he has built infestors. 25:50, Kas comes from the side where there are no corruptors and no infestors to back up the BLs and massacres his defenseless BLs. Furthermore all the FGs are pretty much terrible, as they don't stop the terran at all from advancing. With BL + infestor in ZvT, it's a matter of preventing your BLs from taking to much dmg and slowly wittling down your opponent via broodlings+bl shots+fg damage. This simply did not happen, what happened was that Kas killed half the BLs before a FG landed and then pushed close to the rest with his ground force without FG hitting to stop him. After this, we hit the late late game and Kas ahead on supply. He then just pushes that advantage into a win. Also if we look at how Nestea handled late lategame, he made really limited amount of infestors. When you hit that many ravens, infestors are really the only thing that can fight it. In the end, throwing away 3x armies of BL+corruptor is a great way to loose games. For people saying how great the raven is, notice how many times I mention the raven. The raven had in that game 1 meaningful seeker missile. The pdds and auto turrets hardly mattered. The fact of the matter is, nestea played far below his skill level and if you are going to take anything from that game, you should rather notice how vital infestors and fgs are to the bl+infestor combo. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
But it is viable on maps like Metropolis. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=346620 | ||
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Thylacine
Sweden882 Posts
On August 17 2012 00:11 Talin wrote: Only being effective against clumped up groups of units tends to be the norm for all kinds of area of effect damage. Yes, but unlike Fungal and Storm you can simply run away from a HSM or just move the unit that it is attracted to and only that unit will take damage. That's why its fucking shit compared to storm and fungal. Oh, and the funny thing with fungal is that if you don't split perfectly before it lands you are guaranteed to die since you will remain clumped up. Balance, balance, balance... | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12023 Posts
It's a good unit when you get more than one and as long as you're on 3 bases it's not hard to start raven production, especially as a bio terran in both TvZ and TvP due to the way gas banks up as a bio player. Yes, but unlike Fungal and Storm you can simply run away from a HSM or just move the unit that it is attracted to and only that unit will take damage. That's why its fucking shit compared to storm and fungal. Usually it means they have to send their corrupters back to save them, leaving your vikings to deal with the Broods. | ||
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WaesumNinja
210 Posts
On August 17 2012 20:11 Thylacine wrote: Yes, but unlike Fungal and Storm you can simply run away from a HSM or just move the unit that it is attracted to and only that unit will take damage. That's why its fucking shit compared to storm and fungal. Oh, and the funny thing with fungal is that if you don't split perfectly before it lands you are guaranteed to die since you will remain clumped up. Balance, balance, balance... Yes, but unlike terran, protoss and zerg are not as well equipped to eliminate the threat of casters. Templars have feedback, yes, but emp is a more efficient way to eliminate the energy of infestors (several infestors at once, most of the time) while still having longer range than said Fungal. HSM deals more damage than both of those spells combined, and dishes it out much faster. Is also delivered by a flying unit that seems to be getting a speed buff in the near future (potentially). "Just move" the unit that it's attracted to isn't as easy as you think when you got a lot of shit to deal with at the same time. | ||
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fuzzz
267 Posts
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On August 17 2012 20:25 WaesumNinja wrote: Yes, but unlike terran, protoss and zerg are not as well equipped to eliminate the threat of casters. Templars have feedback, yes, but emp is a more efficient way to eliminate the energy of infestors (several infestors at once, most of the time) while still having longer range than said Fungal. HSM deals more damage than both of those spells combined, and dishes it out much faster. Is also delivered by a flying unit that seems to be getting a speed buff in the near future (potentially). "Just move" the unit that it's attracted to isn't as easy as you think when you got a lot of shit to deal with at the same time. If you are going to be EMPing those infestors, your ghosts are getting shelled by broods(+ splash from tanks). Also an emp will max hit 3, but quite often just a single infestor. If anything i think hts might be better overall option to use against infestors under BLs since it's a one way mission, you can queue the ability before the unit gets in range and be guranteed to hit if it does indeed get in range. | ||
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Zerg.Zilla
Hungary5029 Posts
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WaesumNinja
210 Posts
On August 17 2012 20:33 Zarahtra wrote: If you are going to be EMPing those infestors, your ghosts are getting shelled by broods(+ splash from tanks). Not really if you keep your ghosts cloaked and keep overseers at bay. | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On August 17 2012 20:36 WaesumNinja wrote: Not really if you keep your ghosts cloaked and keep overseers at bay. And how do you exactly keep those overseers at bay? At 50 gas a pop, risking your whole viking fleet to snipe them is at best insanely risky. | ||
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WaesumNinja
210 Posts
On August 17 2012 20:38 Zarahtra wrote: And how do you exactly keep those overseers at bay? At 50 gas a pop, risking your whole viking fleet to snipe them is at best insanely risky. I don't think your mentality is helping you play the game here. | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On August 17 2012 20:39 WaesumNinja wrote: I don't think your mentality is helping you play the game here. It probably isn't, but your arguement is that you should basically: Kill overseers to get ghosts in range of infestors to prevent fungal growths from landing on your vikings/ravens that are killing overseers. If you don't notice, it's an infinite circle. | ||
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Mr Showtime
United States1353 Posts
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WaesumNinja
210 Posts
On August 17 2012 20:42 Zarahtra wrote: It probably isn't, but your arguement is that you should basically: Kill overseers to get ghosts in range of infestors to prevent fungal growths from landing on your vikings/ravens that are killing overseers. If you don't notice, it's an infinite circle. Are you telling me you want something that cannot be responded to? You know, the other player is a player too and he also has to have options, so of course there will be "a circle" that will connect eventually. You're making it sound like nothing you can do will be able to do anything, which becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. edit: added quote since someone got in faster than me :c | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On August 17 2012 20:45 WaesumNinja wrote: Are you telling me you want something that cannot be responded to? You know, the other player is a player too and he also has to have options, so of course there will be "a circle" that will connect eventually. You're making it sound like nothing you can do will be able to do anything, which becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. edit: added quote since someone got in faster than me :c I'm saying, I don't particularly fancy risking the game on if the zerg player is watching the screen. A circle is all fine and dandy, such as ht vs ghost war, which is pretty similar. But the fact of the matter is, you don't instantly loose the game if one of your ghosts get feedback'd. You do, if the infestor catches the vikings just once. | ||
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WaesumNinja
210 Posts
On August 17 2012 20:49 Zarahtra wrote: I'm saying, I don't particularly fancy risking the game on if the zerg player is watching the screen. A circle is all fine and dandy, such as ht vs ghost war, which is pretty similar. But the fact of the matter is, you don't instantly loose the game if one of your ghosts get feedback'd. You do, if the infestor catches the vikings just once. well, you would probably instantly lose if you lost all your broodlords to hsm as well. Why would you keep your vikings so close to each other so that they can die to "being fungaled once" when you are aware that there are infestors on the field? | ||
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BeeNu
615 Posts
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Ouija
United States129 Posts
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Serelitz
Netherlands2895 Posts
On August 17 2012 20:42 Zarahtra wrote: It probably isn't, but your arguement is that you should basically: Kill overseers to get ghosts in range of infestors to prevent fungal growths from landing on your vikings/ravens that are killing overseers. If you don't notice, it's an infinite circle. Exactly, it can go on and on and on because in the end nobody will dodge HSM perfectly just like nobody will EMP HTs perfectly. | ||
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TsGBruzze
Sweden1190 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12023 Posts
On August 17 2012 21:41 Ouija wrote: Glad to see the use of mass ravens which I believe Empire.Kas also did vs. NesTea which helped him secure a win. Maybe everyone will say that they don't suck anymore, they are really good for multiple situations but just don't seem to be used. I think it's because much like the ghost early on and even the Science Vessel in Starcraft nobody could really see the utility until somebody jumped in and showed the rest of the gamers that they could be used for good situations. People would build 1 during a 1/1/1 in TvP and maybe a load in late late game TvT but outside of that nobody ever bothered because for some reason amongst everybody people deemed the unit too useless to use. The reason the raven isn't good solo is the same reason a ghost isn't good if you only have one of them. Alone they're weak but in numbers they have a lot of utility. | ||
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WeKeepRocking
Canada15 Posts
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On August 17 2012 22:18 Qikz wrote: I think it's because much like the ghost early on and even the Science Vessel in Starcraft nobody could really see the utility until somebody jumped in and showed the rest of the gamers that they could be used for good situations. People would build 1 during a 1/1/1 in TvP and maybe a load in late late game TvT but outside of that nobody ever bothered because for some reason amongst everybody people deemed the unit too useless to use. The reason the raven isn't good solo is the same reason a ghost isn't good if you only have one of them. Alone they're weak but in numbers they have a lot of utility. .... holy shit. 1) The Science Vessel does not take up a production slot that is necessary. Sci Vessels are in a completely separate building. Medivacs are necessary to survive; you don't have them your Marines fucking flat out die. 2) Sci Vessels also don't take a bajillion upgrades to become halfway decent. Ravens do. 3) Sci Vessels are fast as shit and can outrun Scourge if you have a head start. Ravens are slow as hell. 4) Fungal Growth is in this game; it isn't in BW. 5) Sci Vessels have irradiate, a long range multipurpose spell that practically rapes everything it touches from a Z's perspective. It is undodgable on a single unit; its damage can only be mitigated. It is what Terrans use for late game caster sniping. 6) Sci Vessels also have very useful spells in EMP and Defensive Matrix, both which are almost equally as good as Irradiate, although a little bit more situational. The Raven has Auto Turret and Seeker Missile, both which are mediocore at best, and heavily rely on your opponent not being good at the game, and PDD which is only useful vs one type of unit. | ||
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U_G_L_Y
United States516 Posts
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Skwid1g
United States953 Posts
On August 17 2012 17:26 Zarahtra wrote: Ok this has been frustrating me quite a bit, people making the raven out to actually be a good unit, when it's infact a terrible unit. So why did Nestea loose? But it's not. Which is why professional Terrans use it in the late-game almost every game when possible. It's a good unit, just like the carrier. Anyone who has used both of them in the super late-game versus Zerg will tell you that. The units themselves are fine, the problem is that getting either of them basically requires you to be playing on a map like this; they take SO much time to build up and get ready (energy/durable mats/hsm/etc. for Ravens, decent air upgrades+build time for carriers) that you just can't make them in 99.99% of games if you aren't on a map like Metro or WW, which is dumb. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
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ragz_gt
9172 Posts
On August 17 2012 22:37 Antisocialmunky wrote: Well it is hard to split with brood lords, Even if some of those corruptors made it, he prolly would have been screwed. Actually if Nestea dodged properly the missile would chased them and not hit anything. That said, it's hard to dodge stuff in big battle, same as fungal / storm (though those are instant) The biggest advantage of HSM missile is that damage scales. With fungal / storm, it makes no different if you get hit by 1 or 10. With HSM, it's the difference between winning and losing (as Nestea showed). Mass raven is GREAT, anyone who got there would agree. The problem is you need at least 6+ of them for HSM to be effective, and it's not easy to get there. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12023 Posts
On August 17 2012 22:32 superstartran wrote: .... holy shit. 1) The Science Vessel does not take up a production slot that is necessary. Sci Vessels are in a completely separate building. Medivacs are necessary to survive; you don't have them your Marines fucking flat out die. 2) Sci Vessels also don't take a bajillion upgrades to become halfway decent. Ravens do. 3) Sci Vessels are fast as shit and can outrun Scourge if you have a head start. Ravens are slow as hell. 4) Fungal Growth is in this game; it isn't in BW. 5) Sci Vessels have irradiate, a long range multipurpose spell that practically rapes everything it touches from a Z's perspective. It is undodgable on a single unit; its damage can only be mitigated. It is what Terrans use for late game caster sniping. 6) Sci Vessels also have very useful spells in EMP and Defensive Matrix, both which are almost equally as good as Irradiate, although a little bit more situational. The Raven has Auto Turret and Seeker Missile, both which are mediocore at best, and heavily rely on your opponent not being good at the game, and PDD which is only useful vs one type of unit. I'm a Terran player and I know from experience that gas levels are high late game TvZ when you go for Marine/Tank/Medivac or MMM Tank. You can add more than one starport. You honestly don't need 50 medivacs with your army. It really isn't that necessary and you can build vikings and ravens at the same time. | ||
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seoul_kiM
United States545 Posts
squirtle shows up and archon toilets everything on the map terran or zerg | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On August 17 2012 22:57 Qikz wrote: I'm a Terran player and I know from experience that gas levels are high late game TvZ when you go for Marine/Tank/Medivac or MMM Tank. You can add more than one starport. You honestly don't need 50 medivacs with your army. It really isn't that necessary and you can build vikings and ravens at the same time. What? If you're Medivac count is too low Infestors will eat your army alive. Period. Sci Vessels were good in BW because with minimal upgrades they were a pretty fast unit that could zip around the map and harass the shit out of Z, while still maintaining effectiveness late game with caster sniping with Irradiate (mainly Defilers), or Irradiating Ultras, using defensive matrix on Tanks to keep them alive, etc. etc. etc. They were extremely cost efficient, probably even more cost efficient than Infestors are in SC2. That's why they were built on low gas maps in BW despite the fact that they were pretty costly on gas. You could use them to force Z's to build scourge/mutas when he didn't want to late game. The comparison between the two isn't even remotely the same. The Raven is an all-in unit where if you don't win a big fight, you're fucking dead. The Sci Vessel forces the Z to go gas heavy on maps that aren't heavy in the amount of gas anyways. | ||
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ScaSully
United States488 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12023 Posts
On August 18 2012 01:07 superstartran wrote: What? If you're Medivac count is too low Infestors will eat your army alive. Period. Sci Vessels were good in BW because with minimal upgrades they were a pretty fast unit that could zip around the map and harass the shit out of Z, while still maintaining effectiveness late game with caster sniping with Irradiate (mainly Defilers), or Irradiating Ultras, using defensive matrix on Tanks to keep them alive, etc. etc. etc. They were extremely cost efficient, probably even more cost efficient than Infestors are in SC2. That's why they were built on low gas maps in BW despite the fact that they were pretty costly on gas. You could use them to force Z's to build scourge/mutas when he didn't want to late game. The comparison between the two isn't even remotely the same. The Raven is an all-in unit where if you don't win a big fight, you're fucking dead. The Sci Vessel forces the Z to go gas heavy on maps that aren't heavy in the amount of gas anyways. Medivacs are important yes, but you don't need 5 starports building them. If you're smart with your control you'll hardly lose any and then you can use your banked up gas for more starports. Which you then use to make a mix of vikings, ravens and medivacs... | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On August 18 2012 01:22 Qikz wrote: Medivacs are important yes, but you don't need 5 starports building them. If you're smart with your control you'll hardly lose any and then you can use your banked up gas for more starports. Which you then use to make a mix of vikings, ravens and medivacs... GL winning on a map that isn't easy to split. Ravens can only be gotten on maps that allow an easy split like Shakuras, WW, or Metro. Shakuras because if you can secure the center and split the map, you can just PF the attack ways in and force the Z to back off. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12023 Posts
On August 18 2012 01:34 superstartran wrote: GL winning on a map that isn't easy to split. Ravens can only be gotten on maps that allow an easy split like Shakuras, WW, or Metro. Shakuras because if you can secure the center and split the map, you can just PF the attack ways in and force the Z to back off. Maybe I'm not the best person to talk about this as I play mech and just force split every map, but there's definately the gas there to add on more starports with bio/marine tank. If you don't use the gas, why bother mining it? | ||
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Zergrusher
United States562 Posts
huh doesn't that sound farmiliar? | ||
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Azera
3800 Posts
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
If anything it looked stagged with how he literally clumped his broodlords and corrupters in flower mode close enough to kiss, and then positioned it directly over all of his infestors. | ||
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SolarJto
United States260 Posts
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Ace1123
Philippines1187 Posts
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AngelOvUriel
Cuba91 Posts
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nttea
Sweden4353 Posts
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