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Those of you asking for this to be fixed, you really don't know what you're getting yourselves into.
The mechanic of the engine that causes floating and flying units to decelerate upon reaching their target unless they receive another order is the same mechanic that makes it possible to micro flying units. The trick that makes your air units change direction quickly if you click inside their selection radius? It would be gone. Along with mutalisk, viking, banshee, and literally every other kind of flying micro. Your units wouldn't respond correctly and you would start whining on the forums.
Even if you hypothetically disabled the shift-queue circumventing deceleration only on floating units, you'd still find it impossible to micro drones, SCVs and probes in fights which would make holding off cheeses that require the aid of your workers almost impossible. Same with sentries.
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On August 16 2012 02:11 Solarsail wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 01:54 stonetalon wrote:btw this also works with nexus/CC/drone egg rallypoints  You mean you can set it once and every drone that comes out doesn't decelerate to the mineral patch?
Well for their first trip yes, you need to reapply it each trip for it to have any measurable effect.
And it's still probably more effective to double up and other tricks rather than do this.
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On August 16 2012 03:12 Martyrc wrote:
I think this could be relevant for 6-pools because you could have an extra set of lings, otherwise it wont change too much.
It has no effect on 6 pools if the map has 3 close mineral patches. You can't use boosting on paired drones on close patches, because it breaks up the pair, and mining from close patches is more effective then boosting.
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On August 16 2012 04:20 submarine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 03:12 Martyrc wrote:
I think this could be relevant for 6-pools because you could have an extra set of lings, otherwise it wont change too much. It has no effect on 6 pools if the map has 3 close mineral patches. You can't use boosting on paired drones on close patches, because it breaks up the pair, and mining from close patches is more effective then boosting.
Are you sure that 2 drones paired on a close patch mines faster than 1 drone on close and one drone on far both boosting towards the hatchery and towards the minerals? While boosting a far mineral path is slower than simply mining a near one, being able to also boost the near one might make it more optimal.
I'm just speculating with 0 data so take this with a grain of salt.
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pretty cool, not sure if i will actually do it in game though, if i can though i will
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So much for sc2 being "easy" as pointed out by many. Imagine the 1-1-1 being executed something like 25 game seconds earlier yeah only true pros can pull that off and the bunker rushes F-YEAH the bunker rushes!!!! The idea to nerf this instead of embracing/praising this seems strange unless tournament players are allowed to play under these types rule-sets. Should this be a sort of unintended mechanic I still support it even though I may only click shift mine once or twice per game.
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On August 15 2012 18:23 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 18:13 Adreme wrote:On August 15 2012 18:00 PatouPower wrote:On August 15 2012 13:46 Infernal_dream wrote:
It's another thing people will do (just like worker splitting) that honestly doesn't do shit. Yet everyone will fucking marvel when someone does it awesomely. Click all your probes send them to one patch, split them, it doesn't matter. you still get 50 minerals right when the first worker is done building. So tired of seeing retarded shit like this. And as stated earlier once you get more than one worker per patch it doesn't work either. They'll be waiting for the other probe to finish in the first place. The workers splitting isn't only to avoid the workers to split themselves up (even though only that is a valuable reason to do so), but it's also to set up your workers on the closest mineral patch on each side so that when the first workers on the far ones return cargo, you can stack them on the closest one. And I am sure you don't find stacking probes useless; even stacking them on the far patches is worth it because otherwise some workers will just "search" which patch to gather from. It's not like you have any other thing to do at this stage in the game, so why wouldn't you do it? The bonus minerals gathered can really help to speed things up, both in worker production and building structures. It's an almost no risk/low reward thing anyways (the same goes for the splitting). But I agree that the 24% trick is pretty much useless since it's a high risk/VERY low reward technique. If you misclick only 1 worker, you just lost all the minerals you gained before and more. Even if progamers didn't know this before, they won't start doing it either since stacking on the closest/farther mineral patches is way more valuable. I can see how it can be useful when you rally your nexus (instead of clicking directly on the patch, you do this trick) when you really have nothing else to do, but it's not really gonna change anything anyways. On August 15 2012 17:52 DarKFoRcE wrote:
i really hope this gets patched quickly like the last trick that increased mining speed. Why would you hope that? If people have enough APM to use on this trick to even make a slight difference, I believe they deserve to have their extra 5 minerals (which is pretty much the maximum amount of bonus minerals you can get before 10 supplies if you are hardcore about it and don't fuck up even once). There is nothing to be patched here. The previous trick was way more easy to pull off (too easy actually), more brainless and way more rewarding. The reason it should be patched is simply because its a pointless APM increase that has no reason to exist beyond that. If the action were in any way interesting than I would be all for it but its not its just mindless and pointless and really shouldnt exist. exactly this.
and the fact that mules benefit more from it :D
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similar to obs trick and allying your opponent, major tournaments/leagues should immediately ban this. If done correctly, timings can hit 30 seconds faster depending on how you allocate your time etc. Imagine a 6pool/2rax or even a sentry/immortal push while boosting.
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On August 16 2012 12:09 desRow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 18:23 DarKFoRcE wrote:On August 15 2012 18:13 Adreme wrote:On August 15 2012 18:00 PatouPower wrote:On August 15 2012 13:46 Infernal_dream wrote:
It's another thing people will do (just like worker splitting) that honestly doesn't do shit. Yet everyone will fucking marvel when someone does it awesomely. Click all your probes send them to one patch, split them, it doesn't matter. you still get 50 minerals right when the first worker is done building. So tired of seeing retarded shit like this. And as stated earlier once you get more than one worker per patch it doesn't work either. They'll be waiting for the other probe to finish in the first place. The workers splitting isn't only to avoid the workers to split themselves up (even though only that is a valuable reason to do so), but it's also to set up your workers on the closest mineral patch on each side so that when the first workers on the far ones return cargo, you can stack them on the closest one. And I am sure you don't find stacking probes useless; even stacking them on the far patches is worth it because otherwise some workers will just "search" which patch to gather from. It's not like you have any other thing to do at this stage in the game, so why wouldn't you do it? The bonus minerals gathered can really help to speed things up, both in worker production and building structures. It's an almost no risk/low reward thing anyways (the same goes for the splitting). But I agree that the 24% trick is pretty much useless since it's a high risk/VERY low reward technique. If you misclick only 1 worker, you just lost all the minerals you gained before and more. Even if progamers didn't know this before, they won't start doing it either since stacking on the closest/farther mineral patches is way more valuable. I can see how it can be useful when you rally your nexus (instead of clicking directly on the patch, you do this trick) when you really have nothing else to do, but it's not really gonna change anything anyways. On August 15 2012 17:52 DarKFoRcE wrote:
i really hope this gets patched quickly like the last trick that increased mining speed. Why would you hope that? If people have enough APM to use on this trick to even make a slight difference, I believe they deserve to have their extra 5 minerals (which is pretty much the maximum amount of bonus minerals you can get before 10 supplies if you are hardcore about it and don't fuck up even once). There is nothing to be patched here. The previous trick was way more easy to pull off (too easy actually), more brainless and way more rewarding. The reason it should be patched is simply because its a pointless APM increase that has no reason to exist beyond that. If the action were in any way interesting than I would be all for it but its not its just mindless and pointless and really shouldnt exist. exactly this. and the fact that mules benefit more from it :D
I don't agree with the idea that it is just pointless spam and that it's uninteresting. I feel like it rewards players for doing it better than other players. It's kind of like in real sports, the player that runs faster is rewarded by overtaking other players. This seems similar to me. I mean, we could say that splitting your workers at the beginning is mindless and pointless and uninteresting, right? So why doesn't blizzard just start the game with your workers already mining? Or have them auto split immediately? If remove everything from the game that we think is uninteresting, I feel like we wouldn't have much of a game left. Click a button that makes the barracks automatically que up a marine when the last one finishes, make queens inject the nearest hatchery at 25 energy automatically. See where I'm going with this?
Though, the mule imbalance is something to be concerned about, I guess.
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On August 16 2012 12:13 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
similar to obs trick and allying your opponent, major tournaments/leagues should immediately ban this. If done correctly, timings can hit 30 seconds faster depending on how you allocate your time etc. Imagine a 6pool/2rax or even a sentry/immortal push while boosting.
The solution is that the defender needs to be boosting as well. If the attacker boosts better than the defender, or the defender doesn't boost at all, I would say the defender rightfully should be at a disadvantage. Progamers have to push the limits, and in the case of mineral boosting, it would be all about trying to boost as many workers as you can while still executing your build and managing everything else. I don't mind it at all.
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On August 16 2012 03:21 tsuxiit wrote:
Those of you asking for this to be fixed, you really don't know what you're getting yourselves into.
The mechanic of the engine that causes floating and flying units to decelerate upon reaching their target unless they receive another order is the same mechanic that makes it possible to micro flying units. The trick that makes your air units change direction quickly if you click inside their selection radius? It would be gone. Along with mutalisk, viking, banshee, and literally every other kind of flying micro. Your units wouldn't respond correctly and you would start whining on the forums.
Even if you hypothetically disabled the shift-queue circumventing deceleration only on floating units, you'd still find it impossible to micro drones, SCVs and probes in fights which would make holding off cheeses that require the aid of your workers almost impossible. Same with sentries.
You're making a lot of assumptions here.
There's many ways to fix something like this without affecting every flying unit. One way for example would be to simply have it only apply to workers. How about we leave the speculating about how difficult it would be to fix a bug to the developers.
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On August 16 2012 12:13 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
similar to obs trick and allying your opponent, major tournaments/leagues should immediately ban this. If done correctly, timings can hit 30 seconds faster depending on how you allocate your time etc. Imagine a 6pool/2rax or even a sentry/immortal push while boosting.
I believe that the stated 24% increase may be an over exaggeration, or even if it isn't, you are still only going to be able to mineral boost on your 5th through 10th scv and mules. The most useful use I see of this is when you do a 10p in teamgames with 2 drones on gas you may be able to get speed 4 seconds earlier. However, I should wait to make any claims until I see the difference when it is applied in a real game scenario.
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KEEP IT BLIZZARD KEEEEEEEP ITTTTTTTTTT
sockfolding 1.0 should have stayed.
blizzard you now have another chance to DO THE RIGHT THING KEEEEEP ITTTTTTT
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Canada906 Posts
On August 16 2012 07:59 Tminus____ wrote:
So much for sc2 being "easy" as pointed out by many. Imagine the 1-1-1 being executed something like 25 game seconds earlier yeah only true pros can pull that off and the bunker rushes F-YEAH the bunker rushes!!!! The idea to nerf this instead of embracing/praising this seems strange unless tournament players are allowed to play under these types rule-sets. Should this be a sort of unintended mechanic I still support it even though I may only click shift mine once or twice per game.
Compared to BW? This is nothing. But that aside, it's a neat thing pros can do in the early game I suppose.
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(didn't read entire 23 pages sorry)...
Has there been any mention on how this would impact stacking. That is, if all of your drones/scvs/probes are already stacked, is there any benefits from say attempting this with 2 workers vs just letting them continue their merry stacked way. I can imagine how you could get faster harvesting, but also can imagine that the timing would become such that the workers would move towards another patch as the mineral patch is occupied.
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On August 16 2012 12:09 desRow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 18:23 DarKFoRcE wrote:On August 15 2012 18:13 Adreme wrote:On August 15 2012 18:00 PatouPower wrote:On August 15 2012 13:46 Infernal_dream wrote:
It's another thing people will do (just like worker splitting) that honestly doesn't do shit. Yet everyone will fucking marvel when someone does it awesomely. Click all your probes send them to one patch, split them, it doesn't matter. you still get 50 minerals right when the first worker is done building. So tired of seeing retarded shit like this. And as stated earlier once you get more than one worker per patch it doesn't work either. They'll be waiting for the other probe to finish in the first place. The workers splitting isn't only to avoid the workers to split themselves up (even though only that is a valuable reason to do so), but it's also to set up your workers on the closest mineral patch on each side so that when the first workers on the far ones return cargo, you can stack them on the closest one. And I am sure you don't find stacking probes useless; even stacking them on the far patches is worth it because otherwise some workers will just "search" which patch to gather from. It's not like you have any other thing to do at this stage in the game, so why wouldn't you do it? The bonus minerals gathered can really help to speed things up, both in worker production and building structures. It's an almost no risk/low reward thing anyways (the same goes for the splitting). But I agree that the 24% trick is pretty much useless since it's a high risk/VERY low reward technique. If you misclick only 1 worker, you just lost all the minerals you gained before and more. Even if progamers didn't know this before, they won't start doing it either since stacking on the closest/farther mineral patches is way more valuable. I can see how it can be useful when you rally your nexus (instead of clicking directly on the patch, you do this trick) when you really have nothing else to do, but it's not really gonna change anything anyways. On August 15 2012 17:52 DarKFoRcE wrote:
i really hope this gets patched quickly like the last trick that increased mining speed. Why would you hope that? If people have enough APM to use on this trick to even make a slight difference, I believe they deserve to have their extra 5 minerals (which is pretty much the maximum amount of bonus minerals you can get before 10 supplies if you are hardcore about it and don't fuck up even once). There is nothing to be patched here. The previous trick was way more easy to pull off (too easy actually), more brainless and way more rewarding. The reason it should be patched is simply because its a pointless APM increase that has no reason to exist beyond that. If the action were in any way interesting than I would be all for it but its not its just mindless and pointless and really shouldnt exist. exactly this. and the fact that mules benefit more from it :D
I doubt that you will still have APM to spend on this trick when you can call mules.
God, seeing progamers wanting to patch things like this completely blows my mind. I just can't understand how it's a bad thing for the game. Even if it gave more minerals, it should simply stay in the game because all races can "abuse" it for the first few minutes on the game. People here seem to think a player can justify spending APM on this trick after 2 or 3 minutes into the game, which is completely absurd. And even after 3 minutes of hardcore boosting I don't think you even have 15 bonus minerals, let alone 10.
Nobody's gonna do it with gold mines and nobody's gonna do it with mules. And if people do it they will quickly get behind in all the other aspects of the game. I don't know why Blizzard should spend even 1 second of their time on that nice little trick that does no harm.
EDIT: Also, lol at the people who claim this can increase timings by 25 or 30 seconds. What game are you playing? Are you playing a game against a computer where all you need to do is train workers all game long without looking away for a second? God people love to makes posts when they haven't even tested it yet.
It's really not hard: go in a custom game against a very easy computer or whatever, and boost the best you can for 2 minutes (don't forget to stack the close patches beforehand) and stop at 10 workers. Then, in another custom game, only stack close mineral patches and stop at 10 workers. Compare the minerals gathered, and realize that this is the best mineral bonus you will ever get in the entire game by doing this technique since, afterwards, you need to manage other things than workers. I'm pretty sure the bonus minerals gathered will be 5 at best (if there is any difference at all; it only happened once for me in the 10 test games I did and it can be attributed to other variables).
I don't care if a progamer has 50 or 400 APM; the thing is that this APM will be more useful doing any other thing than mineral boosting after the very beginning of the game. Claiming that this trick can boost timings by 30 seconds is absurd since it implies that you can get more than 20 or even 15 minerals from this trick.
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On August 16 2012 13:41 Eventine wrote:
(didn't read entire 23 pages sorry)...
Has there been any mention on how this would impact stacking. That is, if all of your drones/scvs/probes are already stacked, is there any benefits from say attempting this with 2 workers vs just letting them continue their merry stacked way. I can imagine how you could get faster harvesting, but also can imagine that the timing would become such that the workers would move towards another patch as the mineral patch is occupied.
On close patches it improves mining by around 1%. On far patches by around 4%. Easy to misclick with 2 workers on a patch or force workers to bounce off to other patches which defeats the whole purpose. Also workers on move command aren't mineral walking so there are potential collision problems.
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If you're fast enough you can queue several commands in a row. This is quite a bit of work though. Trebis made a nice video showing how this worked, it would be interesting to see in what way it would alter production queues and timings by a professional. Would they squeeze an extra scv in? 2?
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On August 16 2012 04:57 soccerdude wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 04:20 submarine wrote:On August 16 2012 03:12 Martyrc wrote:
I think this could be relevant for 6-pools because you could have an extra set of lings, otherwise it wont change too much. It has no effect on 6 pools if the map has 3 close mineral patches. You can't use boosting on paired drones on close patches, because it breaks up the pair, and mining from close patches is more effective then boosting. Are you sure that 2 drones paired on a close patch mines faster than 1 drone on close and one drone on far both boosting towards the hatchery and towards the minerals? While boosting a far mineral path is slower than simply mining a near one, being able to also boost the near one might make it more optimal. I'm just speculating with 0 data so take this with a grain of salt.
Well, i thought about that one also, but i guess the gain, if there is any will be very small. While testing in the game i was not able to reach the mining speed of a close patch with a boosted far patch. Maybe someone more talented will be able to put down his pool a little bit faster. I guess compared to this the spawn position have a greater effect on the pool timing, because larvae always spawn on the bottom of a hatch and thats quite bad if your spawn is on the top of the map. If you think about it it takes quite long to recover from this initial extra travel time of every spawned worker.
Over all i think this boosting trick gets overhyped by a huge margin in this thread. There is a reason no one posted a video or replay of a superfast and supertight rax or pooltiming yet. The gains from boosting get overshadowed by other factors like spawning position and random close pair break ups or small slip ups with new rallied workers. Boosting should be the lowest priority worker micro. But it is still nice to know it works, and especially that it works on rally points may be used by pros and optimization fetishists soon. Over all a nice find but not the big revolution some of you might think of.
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On August 16 2012 02:39 ShoWTimE94 wrote:
i tested how quick a probe with and without mineral boost gathers 50 minerals(from a close mineral patch on daybreak).
with mineral boost it took 62s and without 65s.
to figure out what it means for 1 minute i divided 50/65 and 50/62 and multiplied each with 60s. what i got is that without mineral boost it is ~46,15 and with ~48,39 minerals in 1 minute(~4,85% more). so with each worker you constantly do it you basically get about 2,24 minerals more in 60s. (i am not the best at math, so can someone confirm that the calculation is correct?)
may not be 100% accurate because i did this really quick, but i think it makes it pretty clear that the advantage is very small. maybe someone with more time than me can make a more accurate analysis, but it shouldnt be a big difference.
(dont quote me on that though and wait for some more people testing it!!!)
Thats sound about right. While testing in game the lead i was able to gain in 10 boosted trips compared to 10 normal ones seemed to be a little bit more then 3 seconds, but i was looking at the in game clock and you used real life time i guess.
You also should not look at this with %-points. Mineral gathering in SC2 works incremental in 5 Mineral packets. If you get this last 5 minerals needed for the 1. depot 3 seconds earlier, you can put down that depot 3 seconds earlier. The difference in total mining rate will be very small but the benefit in game is rather large.
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EPT
