Mineral boost trick (works in 1.5!) - Page 25

Shiori

3815 Posts

August 17 2012 16:55 GMT

#481

On August 18 2012 01:34 PatouPower wrote:

Well, I don't know if you can call that a perfect timing anymore if you are 10/15 minerals late because you didn't boost

I don't think any build in any matchup is so tight that a 2-3 second (of Blizzard time) difference is the deciding factor. If it is, you probably shouldn't be using that build.

sockfolder

United States9 Posts

August 17 2012 19:32 GMT

#482

Well, now that this trick is well publicized, it will probably be fixed =/. At least it managed to survive a while.
This performance of this trick is actually far more complicated that you might expect. It isn't a flat benefit like the original mineral boosting (which cut off a flat 0.5 secs off mining speed). Rather, it seems like patches in some directions or at some spots cause the workers to slow down much more than they should.
I found the data I originally collected about this trick, which I calculated by making a custom map that would tell me how long it took for the full mining trip. (FYI it takes 2.8125s for the mining itself). I just tested one spot on Metalopolis (I think) for this data.

(I'm not sure how to make a table on this forum)
Distance From CC || Normal Mining Time | Boosted Mining Time | Time Saved
6.5765 || 6.5625 | 6.375 | 0.1875
7.5664 || 7.5625 | 7.1875 | 0.375
6.8007 || 6.6875 | 6.4375 | 0.25
7.6322 || 7.3125 | 7.1875 | 0.125
7.4330 || 7.5625 | 7.125 | 0.4375
6.5 || 7 | 6.5 | 0.5
7.1589 || 7.5625 | 7 | 0.5625
6.1847 || 6.625 | 6.375 | 0.25

So the effectiveness is quite varied. Some patches can save as much as the original mineral boosting trick, some save almost nothing. In addition, if you plot the mining time vs distance, you will see it that it is much more linear for the boosted mining time. This is why I say some patches just have oddly high mining times due to extra deceleration for the workers. I do not know the cause, or how to figure out which patches have this problem other than trial and error. This could actually be quite important for map designers, especially if the mining times are not symmetric (I haven't checked).

TheDougler

Canada8304 Posts

August 17 2012 19:43 GMT

#483

On August 18 2012 04:32 sockfolder wrote:
Well, now that this trick is well publicized, it will probably be fixed =/. At least it managed to survive a while.
This performance of this trick is actually far more complicated that you might expect. It isn't a flat benefit like the original mineral boosting (which cut off a flat 0.5 secs off mining speed). Rather, it seems like patches in some directions or at some spots cause the workers to slow down much more than they should.
I found the data I originally collected about this trick, which I calculated by making a custom map that would tell me how long it took for the full mining trip. (FYI it takes 2.8125s for the mining itself). I just tested one spot on Metalopolis (I think) for this data.

(I'm not sure how to make a table on this forum)
Distance From CC || Normal Mining Time | Boosted Mining Time | Time Saved
6.5765 || 6.5625 | 6.375 | 0.1875
7.5664 || 7.5625 | 7.1875 | 0.375
6.8007 || 6.6875 | 6.4375 | 0.25
7.6322 || 7.3125 | 7.1875 | 0.125
7.4330 || 7.5625 | 7.125 | 0.4375
6.5 || 7 | 6.5 | 0.5
7.1589 || 7.5625 | 7 | 0.5625
6.1847 || 6.625 | 6.375 | 0.25

So the effectiveness is quite varied. Some patches can save as much as the original mineral boosting trick, some save almost nothing. In addition, if you plot the mining time vs distance, you will see it that it is much more linear for the boosted mining time. This is why I say some patches just have oddly high mining times due to extra deceleration for the workers. I do not know the cause, or how to figure out which patches have this problem other than trial and error. This could actually be quite important for map designers, especially if the mining times are not symmetric (I haven't checked).

Holy fuck you're still around!

You're the poster TL needs sockfolder. Only producing QUALITY posts like this. Not the poster we deserved, but the poster we needed right now.

StreetWise

United States594 Posts

August 17 2012 20:33 GMT

#484

I don't see a reason for Blizzard to change this effect. As many have already pointed out it requires quite a bit of APM to do pull off and it gives players something to do in the first few minutes of the game. I fail to see how one could keep up with this after the 5 minute mark and especially if they are getting up that second base and maybe dealing with the first bit of harassment.

PVJ

Hungary5214 Posts

August 17 2012 20:53 GMT

#485

On August 17 2012 04:40 niteReloaded wrote:
This is almost dismissable for mineral mining.

However, for gas, it may easily become the norm among the professionals because suddenly 2 workers is close to optimal mining and you can afford 1 more worker gathering minerals.

Holy fuck, imagine Squirtle playing it out this way. If we count up to 3 bases that's 6 probes more, that could be like a one, one and a half minute boost for any type of aggression? Of course I don't think any non-BW pro would be able to do this type of macro.

Al Bundy

7257 Posts

August 17 2012 20:59 GMT

#486

So sockfolding (2.0) is back? As long as this kind of mechanics is not intended, blizzard will remove it.
Blizzard's definition of "working as intended" may differ from the playerbase's though.

SolarJto

United States260 Posts

August 18 2012 19:50 GMT

#487

This is pretty cool

Fencar

United States2694 Posts

August 19 2012 01:17 GMT

#488

On August 18 2012 01:55 Shiori wrote:

Show nested quote +

I don't think any build in any matchup is so tight that a 2-3 second (of Blizzard time) difference is the deciding factor. If it is, you probably shouldn't be using that build.

*It's more like starting that CC/Hatchery/Nexus from a FE several seconds earlier; more APM for a slight economic boost, letting you hit your timing slightly earlier than the opponent was expecting, starting your third slightly earlier, meaning you have more units than your opponent at X, Y, and Z timings because of a little early game boost.

What he's talking about is something like the 4-gate, 1-1-1, 6/7pool, etc.

Edit: *In the majority of situations.

Fencar

United States2694 Posts

August 19 2012 01:19 GMT

#489

On August 18 2012 05:59 Al Bundy wrote:
So sockfolding (2.0) is back? As long as this kind of mechanics is not intended, blizzard will remove it.
Blizzard's definition of "working as intended" may differ from the playerbase's though.

This makes me think, if they patch it, they will have to make the SCV not slow down in the first place, so everything will go slightly faster, making the game harder to get into for noobs ever so slightly, while making it easier for players not at the level required to do this boost in the early game.

Aggros

Russian Federation1 Post

August 19 2012 06:54 GMT

#490

Interesting, but its not 24% boost. 24 means: when common worker makes 4 iterations, out worker makes 5. Obvious it's not. This technic provides about 3-4% performance boost. Not more

Infernal_dream

United States2359 Posts

August 19 2012 07:11 GMT

#491

This trick is so awesome it's being used by all the pros, oh wait it's not. Just like in most tournaments you don't even see pros sitting there trying to get their workers to mine on the closer patches. It's all a waste of apm. Even if you put them on the close patch it'll move eventually because they way they cycle.

Roachu

Sweden692 Posts

August 19 2012 07:26 GMT

#492

This is exactly the sort of thing Blizzard should NOT patch. If you put too much effort into this you're going to fuck up your build completely but if you feel you actually have it down to perfection why not waste the rest of your APM on it?
I know this will be patched but it would be so cool to see pros do this in the beginning.

Raggamuffinoo

United Kingdom117 Posts

August 19 2012 07:40 GMT

#493

This micro technique is quite handy for getting workers to 'stick' on mineral patches. If you set your main building rally to just before the mineral, such as here.+ Show Spoiler +

Then spam shift+right-click on the minerals it will stick first time.

Disregarding any mineral advantage claims, this tip is very helpful to understand how acceleration affects workers and even building construction.

Adventurekid

Sweden505 Posts

August 19 2012 08:01 GMT

#494

If this really would make a significant change in the mineral income, then it might be something that really push the current "skillcap" (if that exists will say).

WMPenn

United States13 Posts

August 20 2012 17:08 GMT

#495

How close does the move command need to be to the minerals? Cause with my mouse accuracy, im sure to miss a few times haha

sekritzzz

1515 Posts

August 20 2012 17:27 GMT

#496

On August 19 2012 16:11 Infernal_dream wrote:
This trick is so awesome it's being used by all the pros, oh wait it's not. Just like in most tournaments you don't even see pros sitting there trying to get their workers to mine on the closer patches. It's all a waste of apm. Even if you put them on the close patch it'll move eventually because they way they cycle.

A lot of koreans put their workers on the closer patches, not to mention when the old mining boost trick worked they all applied it. I wouldn't be surprised if this is used more often now that it's out.

Whatson

United States5356 Posts

August 20 2012 17:31 GMT

#497

Quite a few pros actually use this. Suppy does this every single game he streams, it might not be that big of a deal, but its not like you'll need that APM in the beginning anyways.

tehemperorer

United States2183 Posts

August 20 2012 17:34 GMT

#498

On August 21 2012 02:08 WMPenn wrote:
How close does the move command need to be to the minerals? Cause with my mouse accuracy, im sure to miss a few times haha

Range can vary slightly, but has to be within 25% the distance between nexus and mineral patch it seems. Sometimes my probes hesitate/rotate after the first command, which hurts, but they seem to do that randomly and I'm pretty accurate about where I click... You do have ample time to make an accurate click if you practice just a little bit. In ladder play though I worry about pairing first and then get far patch probes to do this trick up to about 8 or 9 probes, then come back to it at about 12 probes and that's the last time I focus on it.

tehemperorer

United States2183 Posts

August 20 2012 17:35 GMT

#499

On August 21 2012 02:27 sekritzzz wrote:

Show nested quote +

Uhm... do you watch starcraft 2?

A lot of koreans put their workers on the closer patches, not to mention when the old mining boost trick worked they all applied it. I wouldn't be surprised if this is used more often now that it's out.

Did you read the OP? It's not about pairing on close patches at all.