This is a simple trick I have never seen anybody using or any post talking about. EDIT: Sockfolding found this 2 years ago as Sockfolding 2.0, see below.
Workers have acceleration, so a worker would decrease speed when getting close to mineral and increase speed when leave the mineral. Same happens when returning mineral.
What I found is that you could actually right click to the front of the mineral patch, then queue (shift) right click the mineral. The worker's speed is not decreased at all. Similarly, right click near base and queue right click to base when returning resource.
Special Thanks to ForGG: I came up with this from his stream where I noticed a queued waypoint does not decrease unit's speed.
NOTE: the boost is not 24%, someone miscalculated it
Replay: http://drop.sc/238724 Shows how I managed to gather faster with a more distant worker than a nearer one.
Edit: It is also possible to make workers travel faster to build: instead of build or move + build, you simply right click + shift right click on the same spot, and build when the worker reaches destination. It's same fast as "pass by destination" method, but easier to use.
If it isn't the same - could you post data please ?
It's not the ultra old trick in 1.1 (or 1.2?) just use queued action to remove decceleration so that the worker will take less time between mineral and base
When you shift-click like that, I thought the unit slows down as it gets to the waypoint, then exequtes the next command in the sequence. So how does this not just cause your worker to slow down in the same mannor, but now with shift-commands?
You really need a video or more description/data to back up a claim like this.
On August 15 2012 02:55 Tictock wrote: When you shift-click like that, I thought the unit slows down as it gets to the waypoint, then exequtes the next command in the sequence. So how does this not just cause your worker to slow down in the same mannor, but now with shift-commands?
You really need a video or more description/data to back up a claim like this.
I thought exactly the same as you before, until I tried...
It's not the same as the sockfolding of old days, which was queuing "return resources" followed by a right-click on the mineral patch. Sockfolding got rid of the small delay, where the worker has the mineral in hand already, but doesn't vacate the patch.
If it isn't the same - could you post data please ?
It's not the ultra old trick in 1.1 (or 1.2?) just use queued action to remove decceleration so that the worker will take less time between mineral and base
On August 15 2012 03:04 Thrombozyt wrote: It's not the same as the sockfolding of old days, which was queuing "return resources" followed by a right-click on the mineral patch. Sockfolding got rid of the small delay, where the worker has the mineral in hand already, but doesn't vacate the patch.
This works different from the description.
Sigh, I remember the good old days of sockfolding.
Edit: Can't try this right now, can someone give an estimate of how much of a boost this gives? Thanks.
On August 15 2012 03:08 ddrddrddrddr wrote: This takes twice the actions it did previously when they nerfed that one. If you pull this off you deserve the damn minerals.
On August 15 2012 03:08 ddrddrddrddr wrote: This takes twice the actions it did previously when they nerfed that one. If you pull this off you deserve the damn minerals.
but very APM intensive. Is it possible to shift+queue the entire sequence of orders? Because its not really effective to babysit individual probes to get them to mine faster...
On August 15 2012 03:08 ddrddrddrddr wrote: This takes twice the actions it did previously when they nerfed that one. If you pull this off you deserve the damn minerals.
Sick stuff, i really like it. Really good players, can warm up and spam early game with this, really cute ... come on sc2 lunatics, show us real greed for minerals. ^_^
edit: If this get patched, developers are dumb as hell. This little thing is pure gold for game like starcarft, where 1 second counts, where 2 units more means a lot, etc...
On August 15 2012 03:22 monkybone wrote: I just tested this on one of the back mineral patches of Cloud Kingdom.
I mined 95 minerals in 116 seconds using the method. The SCV would use 144 seconds without using the trick. That's 49.1 minerals per minute using the trick, vs 39.6 minerals per minute not using the trick. That's a 24% bonus income per SCV.
Holy shit, this will become standard.
It's probably completely viable to do this the first few minutes on a few SCV's.
Whoa.. that's a pretty big difference.
Is it possible to shift queue multiple trips per scv?
On August 15 2012 03:21 TheFish7 wrote: Well it does seem to be working,
but very APM intensive. Is it possible to shift+queue the entire sequence of orders? Because its not really effective to babysit individual probes to get them to mine faster...
It is only possible to queue alot trips, when the worker is returning mineral, which means the worker is able to use "return cargo" command. right click near base, shift click base, shift click near mineral, shift click mineral, and so on. Reason: only when the worker is carrying mineral, right click targeting the base will be intepreted as returning the resource; otherwise it's just move. You never want to watch your worker carrying mineral and move to base then leave the base :D:D:D:D
On August 15 2012 03:22 monkybone wrote: I just tested this on one of the back mineral patches of Cloud Kingdom.
I mined 95 minerals in 116 seconds using the method. The SCV would use 144 seconds without using the trick. That's 49.1 minerals per minute using the trick, vs 39.6 minerals per minute not using the trick. That's a 24% bonus income per SCV.
Holy shit, this will become standard.
It's probably completely viable to do this the first few minutes on a few SCV's.
Whoa.. that's a pretty big difference.
Is it possible to shift queue multiple trips per scv?
You're forgetting that this wont work when you have multiple workers on a mineral patch because they will have to wait in line.
On August 15 2012 03:22 monkybone wrote: I just tested this on one of the back mineral patches of Cloud Kingdom.
I mined 95 minerals in 116 seconds using the method. The SCV would use 144 seconds without using the trick. That's 49.1 minerals per minute using the trick, vs 39.6 minerals per minute not using the trick. That's a 24% bonus income per SCV.
Holy shit, this will become standard.
It's probably completely viable to do this the first few minutes on a few SCV's.
That is fucking awesome! I REALLY hope they don't nerf this...
Though to be thorough, could somebody try it with mules? because THAT could potentially maybe be overpowered like mules were on gold minerals before that one patch.
i think if you do it like that you really deserve the minerals, on the other hand i want to see it removed, because people will be so concentrated on this at the start, that they will scout even less and fall to cheese more often then they do already.
On August 15 2012 03:21 TheFish7 wrote: Well it does seem to be working,
but very APM intensive. Is it possible to shift+queue the entire sequence of orders? Because its not really effective to babysit individual probes to get them to mine faster...
It is only possible to queue alot trips, when the worker is returning mineral, which means the worker is able to use "return cargo" command. right click near base, shift click base, shift click near mineral, shift click mineral, and so on. Reason: only when the worker is carrying mineral, right click targeting the base will be intepreted as returning the resource; otherwise it's just move. You never want to watch your worker carrying mineral and move to base then leave the base :D:D:D:D
Does the worker also not decelerate if you do the same trick for the return trip though(click in front of base, shift-click on town hall)? Doing it both ways seems like it could be quite significant if it works.
On August 15 2012 03:38 Diks wrote: 24% is quite nice. This seems extremly APM intensive, but maybe we'll see that trick used in the first minutes of the game.
Nice find
This will be sick if hacks implement a feature auto using it...
On August 15 2012 03:21 TheFish7 wrote: Well it does seem to be working,
but very APM intensive. Is it possible to shift+queue the entire sequence of orders? Because its not really effective to babysit individual probes to get them to mine faster...
It is only possible to queue alot trips, when the worker is returning mineral, which means the worker is able to use "return cargo" command. right click near base, shift click base, shift click near mineral, shift click mineral, and so on. Reason: only when the worker is carrying mineral, right click targeting the base will be intepreted as returning the resource; otherwise it's just move. You never want to watch your worker carrying mineral and move to base then leave the base :D:D:D:D
Does the worker also not decelerate if you do the same trick for the return trip though(click in front of base, shift-click on town hall)? Doing it both ways seems like it could be quite significant if it works.
I did the trick at both end of the trip. It works as well when returning the mineral.
On August 15 2012 03:22 monkybone wrote: I just tested this on one of the back mineral patches of Cloud Kingdom.
I mined 95 minerals in 116 seconds using the method. The SCV would use 144 seconds without using the trick. That's 49.1 minerals per minute using the trick, vs 39.6 minerals per minute not using the trick. That's a 24% bonus income per SCV.
Holy shit, this will become standard.
It's probably completely viable to do this the first few minutes on a few SCV's.
Wow that's a big difference. I hope Blizz doesn't nerf it this time. It seems a lot more APM intensive as well, so it shouldn't break the game for casuals so to speak - only give pros something to spend their APM on in the early game.
Nice hey, something more to do while just pairing up SCVs while waiting for first depo/rax. I wonder if it will be nerfed though, I hope not as it really wont matter much but is something you can do to edge out.
On August 15 2012 03:38 Diks wrote: 24% is quite nice. This seems extremly APM intensive, but maybe we'll see that trick used in the first minutes of the game.
Nice find
This will be sick if hacks implement a feature auto using it...
They probably wont, since it's too easy to spot a diamond constantly having 1000 apm.
I hope this stays in game as well. It's one of those small things that will give the best players edge over the other top players.
Speaking about minerals things, I noticed that 3 workers often stack on the same patch mid/late game when I only have 16 workers on the base, rather than spreading 2 by patch. It leaves 1 worker on a patch alone, and I don't remember seeing this pre 1.5, do someone else noticed it? I don't think it's thread worthy tho :/
Great observation. I always assumed this was the case because if u accidently click a probe instead of a mineral patch when gathering you'll notice their speed push them back because they're actually moving slower the closer they get to the patch. Because of the instant and no distance on the next command their speed gain is immediate.
This is actually one of the very few things in SC2 that really REALLY annoy me. Accelration and deceleration. I just wanna run away fast D: poor probes getting killed by marines early game =(
On August 15 2012 03:56 bluQ wrote: does this work for zerg too? because apperently i tried it and either im not capable of doing it or it doesnt work cause of creep maybe?
Creep does not affect drones, you are just fucking up.
To all the people saying : "I hope this doesn't get patched", I have to say that I don't see how this could possibly get patched without troublessome side effects. There is just no way of knowing whether the action queued after a move command leeds to a deceleration.
But I don't see it being a big deal. This is way too micro-intensive. Only issue I can see is if someone bots this. But if so, maphackers will be easier to spot !
On August 15 2012 03:44 Nimix wrote: Speaking about minerals things, I noticed that 3 workers often stack on the same patch mid/late game when I only have 16 workers on the base, rather than spreading 2 by patch. It leaves 1 worker on a patch alone, and I don't remember seeing this pre 1.5, do someone else noticed it? I don't think it's thread worthy tho :/
On August 15 2012 03:08 ddrddrddrddr wrote: This takes twice the actions it did previously when they nerfed that one. If you pull this off you deserve the damn minerals.
Just imagine what this could do for 1-base all-ins at the pro level, especially 6pool, 2rax bunker rushes, and cannon rushes.
Let's hope Blizz has the same opinion as you do, though. A higher skill ceiling is always nice.
On August 15 2012 03:22 monkybone wrote: I just tested this on one of the back mineral patches of Cloud Kingdom.
I mined 95 minerals in 116 seconds using the method. The SCV would use 144 seconds without using the trick. That's 49.1 minerals per minute using the trick, vs 39.6 minerals per minute not using the trick. That's a 24% bonus income per SCV.
Holy shit, this will become standard.
It's probably completely viable to do this the first few minutes on a few SCV's.
Whoa.. that's a pretty big difference.
Is it possible to shift queue multiple trips per scv?
You're forgetting that this wont work when you have multiple workers on a mineral patch because they will have to wait in line.
You're talking about near patches right?
I think there's still gap between 2 workers for far patches which means this can work (theoretically at least).
This obviously won't matter once you achieve over-saturation but it can make a noticeable difference after you're done stacking workers on near patches.
On August 15 2012 03:44 Nimix wrote: Speaking about minerals things, I noticed that 3 workers often stack on the same patch mid/late game when I only have 16 workers on the base, rather than spreading 2 by patch. It leaves 1 worker on a patch alone, and I don't remember seeing this pre 1.5, do someone else noticed it? I don't think it's thread worthy tho :/
It was same before 1.5
Yeah you need to babysit the far patch near the edges, I notice it more there. Once you fix it it stays fixed for a while though.
On August 15 2012 04:00 VyingsP wrote: To all the people saying : "I hope this doesn't get patched", I have to say that I don't see how this could possibly get patched without troublessome side effects. There is just no way of knowing whether the action queued after a move command leeds to a deceleration.
But I don't see it being a big deal. This is way too micro-intensive.
I think you're right about this being impossible to patch out. And that's awesome. Babysitting your workers might not be the most interesting thing to do during a match, but this doesn't show to the audience. It's the small details that make a great player an amazing player.
On August 15 2012 03:42 Gamegene wrote: to be honest I really hope this doesn't stay for good.
there are other aspects of the game that deserve more micro and attention.
Ya, it's much more worthy to spam 343434343343434 in the first 2 minutes of the game than to do this mineral boost micro.
Doing nothing is still better though.
To me, the most annoying thing about these tricks is that now we all have to practice doing it early game.
No we don't. Chances of your average Bronze league player doing it are approximately nil, and even up to most Masters players I'm guessing it will be largely ignored.
On August 15 2012 04:00 VyingsP wrote: To all the people saying : "I hope this doesn't get patched", I have to say that I don't see how this could possibly get patched without troublessome side effects. There is just no way of knowing whether the action queued after a move command leeds to a deceleration.
But I don't see it being a big deal. This is way too micro-intensive.
I think you're right about this being impossible to patch out. And that's awesome. Babysitting your workers might not be the most interesting thing to do during a match, but this doesn't show to the audience. It's the small details that make a great player an amazing player.
They could still simply apply decceleration on point destination move, just like unit target move.
On August 15 2012 03:42 Gamegene wrote: to be honest I really hope this doesn't stay for good.
there are other aspects of the game that deserve more micro and attention.
Ya, it's much more worthy to spam 343434343343434 in the first 2 minutes of the game than to do this mineral boost micro.
Doing nothing is still better though.
To me, the most annoying thing about these tricks is that now we all have to practice doing it early game.
No we don't. Chances of your average Bronze league player doing it are approximately nil, and even up to most Masters players I'm guessing it will be largely ignored.
I cant do this and multitask AND keep the probes paired on close patches. Im not doing this.
On August 15 2012 03:42 Gamegene wrote: to be honest I really hope this doesn't stay for good.
there are other aspects of the game that deserve more micro and attention.
Ya, it's much more worthy to spam 343434343343434 in the first 2 minutes of the game than to do this mineral boost micro.
Doing nothing is still better though.
To me, the most annoying thing about these tricks is that now we all have to practice doing it early game.
The first mistake you make in the game will totally nulify the cute mineral micro, such as a supply block, unless you play at a korean skill level, so no, you don't have to practice it to beat those plat players.
On August 15 2012 03:42 Gamegene wrote: to be honest I really hope this doesn't stay for good.
there are other aspects of the game that deserve more micro and attention.
Seriously? Splitting barely doing anything and automine have dumbed the early game down enough in terms of how hard it is, this could bring some skill back into a part of the game that shouldn't look much different between diamond and gm atm.
Why the fuck are people complaing about this being to hard or w/e, be happy that you can even makro properly with less than 200 apm in this game. I never understood why people like games to be easier, I want my starcraft to be as hard as possible.
On August 15 2012 03:42 Gamegene wrote: to be honest I really hope this doesn't stay for good.
there are other aspects of the game that deserve more micro and attention.
Ya, it's much more worthy to spam 343434343343434 in the first 2 minutes of the game than to do this mineral boost micro.
Doing nothing is still better though.
To me, the most annoying thing about these tricks is that now we all have to practice doing it early game.
This wont ever be a thing everyone needs to be able to do. The advantage is too small for the amount of work for it to be worth practicing anyone below grand master. Most people trying this will probably end up getting fewer minerals due to them messing up.
On August 15 2012 03:42 Gamegene wrote: to be honest I really hope this doesn't stay for good.
there are other aspects of the game that deserve more micro and attention.
Ya, it's much more worthy to spam 343434343343434 in the first 2 minutes of the game than to do this mineral boost micro.
Doing nothing is still better though.
To me, the most annoying thing about these tricks is that now we all have to practice doing it early game.
No we don't. Chances of your average Bronze league player doing it are approximately nil, and even up to most Masters players I'm guessing it will be largely ignored.
I cant do this and multitask AND keep the probes paired on close patches. Im not doing this.
Exactly. Just like 99% of players, or thereabouts.
This only gives an advantage to hyper competitive players and is a way to differentiate yourself mechanically. How is that a bad thing exactly?
On August 15 2012 03:42 Gamegene wrote: to be honest I really hope this doesn't stay for good.
there are other aspects of the game that deserve more micro and attention.
Ya, it's much more worthy to spam 343434343343434 in the first 2 minutes of the game than to do this mineral boost micro.
Doing nothing is still better though.
To me, the most annoying thing about these tricks is that now we all have to practice doing it early game.
No we don't. Chances of your average Bronze league player doing it are approximately nil, and even up to most Masters players I'm guessing it will be largely ignored.
I cant do this and multitask AND keep the probes paired on close patches. Im not doing this.
Did anyone get a chance to test out these two techniques together?
My guess is that the optimal thing to do is to quickly stack the near patches first and then boost the far ones for as long as possible.
i saw Flash doing this in a game on antiga that Sayle was casting about two or three weeks ago. He had the rally point set to right in front of the minerals and went from there for the first little bit of the game. Everyone was joking that he was bw rallying them, but i think he was just doing this form of mineral boosting.
nice to know but still can be only in early game use for it and this is only cool and fancy not game changing to know worst is old units die and new lives by far
firstly, I try and reproduce what is shown in the replay, does not work for me in a ladder match.
Secondly, after completing the replay, my ladder shows a loss in 1v1, though the game never took place, and I get an Error screen when I try to access the match details.
So, replay, plus a bug in 1.5 (surprise surprise) means lost imaginary match. [[ face palm]]
On August 15 2012 04:25 Grimmyman123 wrote: Wish I hadn't watched the replay...
firstly, I try and reproduce what is shown in the replay, does not work for me in a ladder match.
Secondly, after completing the replay, my ladder shows a loss in 1v1, though the game never took place, and I get an Error screen when I try to access the match details.
So, replay, plus a bug in 1.5 (surprise surprise) means lost imaginary match. [[ face palm]]
Is it possible to watch replay while searching quick game? Didn't know about this
i watched the replay and you sent both workers at the same time on 0:15 and by 1:15 they both mined 45 minerals except the one you microed was closer to the nexus which means you gained about 1 or 2 minerals by microing a probe for a minute?
Well, I did some quick math, and if you were able to micro all workers to boost at 24%, and that all workers were mining on back mineral patches (didn't bother to research minerals per minute on front mineral patches), you could get a 6 pool approximately 8 seconds faster.
Just messed around with this in a ladder game. I was only using the technique to shift que them to the minerals so they were returning at normal speed. With a standard 1 rax FE I had 380 minerals when my rax finished, seems like a decently large boost. Also it cut out the miniscule downtime between depot and rax.
I tested this with 2 probes. One was mining mineral patch that was slightly more far away and i used this trick on that probe. I managed to get the probe who was mining the further mineral path to harvest same speed as the probe who was mining close mineral path. I hope Blizzard fix this soon.
On August 15 2012 04:39 Mairou wrote: I tested this with 2 probes. One was mining mineral patch that was slightly more far away and i used this trick on that probe. I managed to get the probe who was mining the further mineral path to harvest same speed as the probe who was mining close mineral path. I hope Blizzard fix this soon.
On August 15 2012 04:39 Mairou wrote: I tested this with 2 probes. One was mining mineral patch that was slightly more far away and i used this trick on that probe. I managed to get the probe who was mining the further mineral path to harvest same speed as the probe who was mining close mineral path. I hope Blizzard fix this soon.
Why should they fix this? Seriously, people who pull this trick deserve those extra minerals. Besides I can assure you this won't effect 99% of ladder games in terms of balance and such. I see no reason for this to get patched
I've done this for about 1 hour, and can't achieve the projected "24%" increase. I can get about a 10% increase though... but that doesn't seem completely worth it because if you are microing in game and mess the cycle up ONCE it'll reset it's benefit... Anyone care to show me a replay of a probe mining for 2 minutes on a mineral patch normally, then the same mineral patch for 2 minutes with this trick? My personal best is 120 minerals in 3 minutes on a far patch --> 130 minerals in 3 minutes on a far patch.
On August 15 2012 04:39 Mairou wrote: I tested this with 2 probes. One was mining mineral patch that was slightly more far away and i used this trick on that probe. I managed to get the probe who was mining the further mineral path to harvest same speed as the probe who was mining close mineral path. I hope Blizzard fix this soon.
Why should they fix this? Seriously, people who pull this trick deserve those extra minerals. Besides I can assure you this won't effect 99% of ladder games in terms of balance and such. I see no reason for this to get patched
It affects the game too much. Think about zerg who is 6 pooling. He got nothing else to do than micro his drones anyway so he will get his pool so much faster using this trick.
On August 15 2012 04:44 See.Blue wrote: 8 second buff to 6pool is a pretty big deal...
And when you master this trick perfectly you can get it maybe over 10 seconds earlier. That's pretty huge.
its a good feature to have in the game. Its something that actually matters that we can do in early game . Idk why bliz would take something out that doesn't break the game (anyone can do it) and actually requires some extra apm.
On August 15 2012 04:39 Mairou wrote: I tested this with 2 probes. One was mining mineral patch that was slightly more far away and i used this trick on that probe. I managed to get the probe who was mining the further mineral path to harvest same speed as the probe who was mining close mineral path. I hope Blizzard fix this soon.
Why should they fix this? Seriously, people who pull this trick deserve those extra minerals. Besides I can assure you this won't effect 99% of ladder games in terms of balance and such. I see no reason for this to get patched
It affects the game too much. Think about zerg who is 6 pooling. He got nothing else to do than micro his drones anyway so he will get his pool so much faster using this trick.
On August 15 2012 03:44 Nimix wrote: Speaking about minerals things, I noticed that 3 workers often stack on the same patch mid/late game when I only have 16 workers on the base, rather than spreading 2 by patch. It leaves 1 worker on a patch alone, and I don't remember seeing this pre 1.5, do someone else noticed it? I don't think it's thread worthy tho :/
This has always happened, and only happens on far patches as it takes "2.5" (or 2.3 or whatever it really is) to completely mine from the far patches.
On August 15 2012 04:44 See.Blue wrote: 8 second buff to 6pool is a pretty big deal...
This alone is probably reason to have this fixed, sad as it is.
It's only relevant if you can do this with all your drones. I haven't tested it yet but as far as I understand it's impossible to do with more than one worker. In that case your pool will only be 1-2 seconds faster which isn't too big of a deal. Also, with this trick your forge/barracks will be faster so I don't really see the problem.
On August 15 2012 04:39 Mairou wrote: I tested this with 2 probes. One was mining mineral patch that was slightly more far away and i used this trick on that probe. I managed to get the probe who was mining the further mineral path to harvest same speed as the probe who was mining close mineral path. I hope Blizzard fix this soon.
Why should they fix this? Seriously, people who pull this trick deserve those extra minerals. Besides I can assure you this won't effect 99% of ladder games in terms of balance and such. I see no reason for this to get patched
It affects the game too much. Think about zerg who is 6 pooling. He got nothing else to do than micro his drones anyway so he will get his pool so much faster using this trick.
Its old.. there was even some analize on that trick in past.. and it was giving you like 20 extra minerals i dont remmember now , or something like 18 extra minerals.. to time you hit 25 or 30 supply. So imo its not worth it
On August 15 2012 04:39 Mairou wrote: I tested this with 2 probes. One was mining mineral patch that was slightly more far away and i used this trick on that probe. I managed to get the probe who was mining the further mineral path to harvest same speed as the probe who was mining close mineral path. I hope Blizzard fix this soon.
Why should they fix this? Seriously, people who pull this trick deserve those extra minerals. Besides I can assure you this won't effect 99% of ladder games in terms of balance and such. I see no reason for this to get patched
It affects the game too much. Think about zerg who is 6 pooling. He got nothing else to do than micro his drones anyway so he will get his pool so much faster using this trick.
You're right, 9/21/2010 is right around the corner.
Any day now
I like how you bothered to read the first few comments Mairou but then skipped from there out when people pointed out it was an ancient post. And skipped reading the blizzard post
I personally don't care, it's not something I would do on ladder (lazy as fuck, low apm, barely paying enough attention as is) but I can see how it'd be awesome for tournaments.
I wouldn't like it if they nerfed it, Starcraft 2 needs more skills imo.
On August 15 2012 04:39 Mairou wrote: I tested this with 2 probes. One was mining mineral patch that was slightly more far away and i used this trick on that probe. I managed to get the probe who was mining the further mineral path to harvest same speed as the probe who was mining close mineral path. I hope Blizzard fix this soon.
Why should they fix this? Seriously, people who pull this trick deserve those extra minerals. Besides I can assure you this won't effect 99% of ladder games in terms of balance and such. I see no reason for this to get patched
It affects the game too much. Think about zerg who is 6 pooling. He got nothing else to do than micro his drones anyway so he will get his pool so much faster using this trick.
On August 15 2012 03:10 TitleRug wrote: Wow, I just watched the replay. Looks like it works. I'll try it myself right now.
It works but it's very APM intensive; I probably won't do this in a real game
Impractical most of the time, but I feel like in the early game it could give some advantages.
On August 15 2012 04:59 Probe1 wrote:
I wouldn't like it if they nerfed it, Starcraft 2 needs more skills imo.
This isn't something that should be on the list of skills pro players have that the average player doesn't. I agree that there needs to be more things to set the real pros apart from part timers, but this isn't it (imo of course).
sick... i gotta try this altough until Master/GM i think it makes almost no difference in lower leagues (except that 8 sek earlier pool or faster 4 gate or rax all in)
Impractical most of the time, but I feel like in the early game it could give some advantages.
On August 15 2012 04:59 Probe1 wrote:
I wouldn't like it if they nerfed it, Starcraft 2 needs more skills imo.
This isn't something that should be on the list of skills pro players have that the average player doesn't. I agree that there needs to be more things to set the real pros apart from part timers, but this isn't it (imo of course).
I'm not saying it's the best possible way to add a higher skill cap but god knows we need more difficulty in the early game department.
I tried this tonight in my ladder games. It takes a bit of practice to find the sweet spot for the rally point, but it really does work. I can keep about two Probes doing this consistently, and it has a noticable impact on the build time of my first Pylon when I FFE. Usually it builds at around 0:50 (actually around 0:51 since I always look for a second to make sure the power field is positioned correctly, but 0:50 is the time I have the money), and I can get it down on 0:48 with this. That can absolutely mean the difference between victory and defeat, when you consider how often early ling aggression comes down to one or two seconds in either direction.
On August 15 2012 05:04 WeedRa wrote: sick... i gotta try this altough until Master/GM i think it makes almost no difference in lower leagues (except that 8 sek earlier pool or faster 4 gate or rax all in)
it'd make 0 difference in master/gm too. Normals timings aren't spot on there (they're never really precise on Ladder anyway).
If this stays with the game it's the best thing blizzard would have done in awhile. The only difference between pros and us lesser folk is that we can do what the pros do, except that they do it better. This falls under that category..
Blizz fixed the first mineral trick, they'll fix this one as well. Though they really shouldn't, something to give good players something else to do makes good players better against bad ones, which is the point.
Interesting trick, but I hope they patch it. I don't want the game dumbed down, and mindless worker rallies to gain more minerals does just that.
And for all the skill cap bitching, we still haven't hit a cap. Games continue to get better all the time. So until we hit that cap, it's a rather silly arguement.
On August 15 2012 05:10 AmericanUmlaut wrote: I tried this tonight in my ladder games. It takes a bit of practice to find the sweet spot for the rally point, but it really does work. I can keep about two Probes doing this consistently, and it has a noticable impact on the build time of my first Pylon when I FFE. Usually it builds at around 0:50 (actually around 0:51 since I always look for a second to make sure the power field is positioned correctly, but 0:50 is the time I have the money), and I can get it down on 0:48 with this. That can absolutely mean the difference between victory and defeat, when you consider how often early ling aggression comes down to one or two seconds in either direction.
It is also possible to make workers travel faster to build: instead of build or move + build, you simply right click + shift right click on the same spot, and build when the worker reaches destination. It's same fast as "pass by destination" method, but easier to use.
On August 15 2012 05:14 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote: Interesting trick, but I hope they patch it. I don't want the game dumbed down, and mindless worker rallies to gain more minerals does just that.
How does more actions in the early game dumb it down?
Edit: fuck. Blew right by my 3000th post sometime in the last week.
On August 15 2012 04:44 See.Blue wrote: 8 second buff to 6pool is a pretty big deal...
This alone is probably reason to have this fixed, sad as it is.
It's only relevant if you can do this with all your drones. I haven't tested it yet but as far as I understand it's impossible to do with more than one worker. In that case your pool will only be 1-2 seconds faster which isn't too big of a deal. Also, with this trick your forge/barracks will be faster so I don't really see the problem.
That's a good point actually. But apparently they're fixing it anyway. Oh well.
On August 15 2012 04:44 See.Blue wrote: 8 second buff to 6pool is a pretty big deal...
This alone is probably reason to have this fixed, sad as it is.
It's only relevant if you can do this with all your drones. I haven't tested it yet but as far as I understand it's impossible to do with more than one worker. In that case your pool will only be 1-2 seconds faster which isn't too big of a deal. Also, with this trick your forge/barracks will be faster so I don't really see the problem.
That's a good point actually. But apparently they're fixing it anyway. Oh well.
The post saying they're fixing it is from 2010 and refers to the old 'sock folding' trick. This one is different (but they'll still remove it, probably, because they're stupid).
Wow, i just tried that and you can actually see the difference pretty clearly when you're comparing a couple workers you're using and the others that are just mining regualarly. Hope they don't do anything bout this, it could prove to show the difference between good and great in the early game
I discovered a similar idea when I messed up my probe split once. If you click behind the mineral line and then click the minerals when the drones are close it has a similar effect. So when you split your workers, box em all, send em behind the minerals, then split em when they're close. They zoom right to the minerals so you can get a jump on your opponent in mining.
its impossible to do with more than 2 workers, i cant even do 2 without fucking up and therefore prly even losing time^^ its not that big of a deal honestly, not as gamebraking as the one in 1.2
People who think this feature is good because it can increase the possible skill gap between amateur and pro are wrong. This is not good way to add skill to the game.
First of all most people will never even know about this and Blizzard would never make this official game feature because its based on glitch. Secondly for spectators this would be like invisible war, because no one can actually see who is microing their workers better.
Microing your workers to close mineral patch is enough to do in early game. Later on you can deny enemy mining from close mineral patch with your scouting worker. It's much more efficient way to get ahead in economy, but even in code S most of the players don't do that yet. But that kind of feature is good way to add skill to the game and there should be more features like that.
On August 15 2012 04:44 See.Blue wrote: 8 second buff to 6pool is a pretty big deal...
This alone is probably reason to have this fixed, sad as it is.
It's only relevant if you can do this with all your drones. I haven't tested it yet but as far as I understand it's impossible to do with more than one worker. In that case your pool will only be 1-2 seconds faster which isn't too big of a deal. Also, with this trick your forge/barracks will be faster so I don't really see the problem.
That's a good point actually. But apparently they're fixing it anyway. Oh well.
The post saying they're fixing it is from 2010 and refers to the old 'sock folding' trick. This one is different (but they'll still remove it, probably, because they're stupid).
Oh I see. It'd definitely favor those who know about it over those who don't, obviously. Say a zerg goes for a 7 pool to kill an FFE, and the protoss doesn't know the trick. The 2nd gateway block has no chance of getting down before the lings get there, I think from my experience with my cheesing. Not basing that off fact though, but it definitely gives advantages to those who know about it (obviously).
E: Imagine a high apm player denying mining of close mineral patches with scouting worker, and being really good with this trick. That could give a serious advantage.
EDIT: btw here is why blizzard wont fix this , the previous trick was fixed because u could achive a mineral boost from que return cargo on the scv, Which is what the AI does by itself, there was a bug that made the manual procress work better than intended (probably faulty coding) . This on the other hand cant/wont be fixed that easily, since the scv is on a normal move command followed by a mining command, it wont deaccelerate aproaching the mineral patch. This isnt a question of faulty coding. blizzard would have to do extendsive ai changes to "fix" this trick. unless ofcourse they simply remove the deacceleration from the normal mining ... i really dont hope thats the case
OK I want to see a replay though of someone who is able to actually use it to, oh, I dunno, get a 3rd hatchery or a 3rd CC out faster than should be possible. I'll bet their APM doesn't allows them to really make much of a difference in the timings.
The real question hasn't been answered yet - can you shift queue a bunch of these orders or do you have to repeat the orders each trip to the mineral patch?
OMG i LOVE IT! this is actually significant difference for a pro game and this would be so mutch more skillintense and would benefit good players a lot. I hope Blizzard doesent do ENYTHING against it (as they did against the return trick)
Thanks alot for pointing it out to me and <3 to ForGG
On August 15 2012 06:01 Mairou wrote: People who think this feature is good because it can increase the possible skill gap between amateur and pro are wrong. This is not good way to add skill to the game.
First of all most people will never even know about this and Blizzard would never make this official game feature because its based on glitch. Secondly for spectators this would be like invisible war, because no one can actually see who is microing their workers better.
Microing your workers to close mineral patch is enough to do in early game. Later on you can deny enemy mining from close mineral patch with your scouting worker. It's much more efficient way to get ahead in economy, but even in code S most of the players don't do that yet. But that kind of feature is good way to add skill to the game and there should be more features like that.
I can't remember any popular game which offered the ability to gain advantages with small glitches like that. Not a single one.
(Q3, CS, SCBW just off the top of my head. In fact, sometimes glitches create way better mechanics than actual design because, well.. no one thought about it before.)
Great find! Though I do hope this gets fixed sometime in the future, as I don't think people will want games dictated by who can boost their workers the most. It also seems a very unnatural thing to do, when your workers are meant to mine properly by themselves even in BW. This really places too much APM emphasis on worker micro. Still it'll be interesting to see how pros adapt in the coming weeks before this gets fixed.
1. AWESOME, for pro games 2. Unfixable (which is also great)
It's impossible to fix because it works differently then the previous method which was hotfixed, this involves game mechanics which are the core of the unit pathing. Only way they can "fix" it, is the default without delay so that noobs will get the increased mineral income too.
By looking at the replay both mineral patches were at 1455 at the end, it is possible but you would have to do it with more than one worker to get any real benefit. And it seems as if it takes awhile before the probe being manipulated really starts to get ahead of the other one.
Edit: I guess if you did this with about 5 workers you could get an extra 10 minerals or so in 1 minute which is actually pretty good for early game. But just make sure youre keeping on building stuff because this method is very APM intensive.
Everyone realizes this will be hotfixed, right? This is the kind of menial micro task Blizzard set out to remove from StarCraft, not add more of. They want you spending micro energy on combat units, not sitting their microing workers to maximum mineral efficiency. It's not fun for the players, and it's not fun for the spectators.
And if you think pros are microing combat units as well as they can, you aren't paying attention. Pros still make so many micro mistakes on their combat units, there is PLENTY of skill gap to be gained there. We don't need this to "raise the micro skill gap", and Blizzard knows it. This is gone by 1.5.1.
On August 15 2012 03:10 TitleRug wrote: Wow, I just watched the replay. Looks like it works. I'll try it myself right now.
It works but it's very APM intensive; I probably won't do this in a real game
This is useless early game, but if we take assume that the player is really good with apm and can handle 6 workers at a time. That would be an extra 40-50 minerals per minute (More if done perfectly, but I'm assuming that scouting and such takes away from t hat) that would be around a 100 extra minerals at the time when you are making your first marine.
On August 15 2012 05:14 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote: Interesting trick, but I hope they patch it. I don't want the game dumbed down, and mindless worker rallies to gain more minerals does just that.
How does more actions in the early game dumb it down?
Edit: fuck. Blew right by my 3000th post sometime in the last week.
I wouldn't use the phrase "dumbed down," but I agree it's bad. This doesn't add more skill to the games, it's a tedious and annoying action. The game should have more challenges to allow skills to develop, not tedious tasks that just add more actions to the list of things that you should be doing.
I havn't seen anything like this since the "sock folding" method back in 2010. Thanks for sharing, interested in seeing more data on this and its viability.
On August 15 2012 06:18 Brainling wrote: Everyone realizes this will be hotfixed, right? This is the kind of menial micro task Blizzard set out to remove from StarCraft, not add more of. They want you spending micro energy on combat units, not sitting their microing workers to maximum mineral efficiency. It's not fun for the players, and it's not fun for the spectators.
And if you think pros are microing combat units as well as they can, you aren't paying attention. Pros still make so many micro mistakes on their combat units, there is PLENTY of skill gap to be gained there. We don't need this to "raise the micro skill gap", and Blizzard knows it. This is gone by 1.5.1.
That's what I thought too but you're not doing anything outside the mechanics of the game that you would normally be allowed to do. They hotfixed the "sock folding" method where you would shift click and spam return cargo on workers to do the same thing but I don't see any reason to hot fix this method
OP says you right click move right up to the mineral patch and shift click on mineral patch, what is there to hot fix?
On August 15 2012 06:19 Malpractice.248 wrote: Question is: IF you only have the apm to do this OR close patches only, which one gives better returns?
Simple answer(not trying to offend), the closer, since you can do the trick more often then the further mineral patches resulting in more use of it and higher % in income.
On August 15 2012 03:22 monkybone wrote: I just tested this on one of the back mineral patches of Cloud Kingdom.
I mined 95 minerals in 116 seconds using the method. The SCV would use 144 seconds without using the trick. That's 49.1 minerals per minute using the trick, vs 39.6 minerals per minute not using the trick. That's a 24% bonus income per SCV.
Holy shit, this will become standard.
It's probably completely viable to do this the first few minutes on a few SCV's.
That is fucking awesome! I REALLY hope they don't nerf this...
Though to be thorough, could somebody try it with mules? because THAT could potentially maybe be overpowered like mules were on gold minerals before that one patch.
THIS (Because microing 6 workers early game and your mules midgame could become a standard thing)
On August 15 2012 06:19 Malpractice.248 wrote: Question is: IF you only have the apm to do this OR close patches only, which one gives better returns?
Simple answer(not trying to offend), the closer, since you can do the trick more often then the further mineral patches resulting in more use of it and higher % in income.
Well, i guess i worded it wrong :p
I meant This trick (utilizing shift commands etc) vs stacking only on close patches early.
I mean, maybe once i get a better hang of this i can stack on closer, and utilize this on farther... but idk.
if you do this PERFECTLY, it will net you maybe 20 extra minerals by the time you are at 14food and doing this becomes a BAD IDEA
i garuntee if you put 12workers on your minerals, and TRIED to do this you would end up with maybe 101% of the income over TWO MINUTES while spending 100% of your apm on this
so thats like... 5 extra minerals over 2 minutes
and if you put 16 workers on minerals, likely your income would go DOWN
and most games reach 16 workers around the time shortly after the first barracks is thrown down\
this is impossible to fix
but minimal at best (20 mineral increase for a PRO who is pro at doing this)
i see no problem
even a buffed 6pool isnt a problem with this. and its impossible to fix anyway
Can somebody make a map where you mine minerals until you have 9 supply and then it resets and you have to re split. And a scoreboard with the average resource at 9 supply assuming that (the person splits and then just rallies)
I would like to see this because I want to incorporate this in to my early-early game when you really don't have anything besides this to do.
If anyone makes a map like this please PM me to let me know.
On August 15 2012 06:01 Mairou wrote: People who think this feature is good because it can increase the possible skill gap between amateur and pro are wrong. This is not good way to add skill to the game.
First of all most people will never even know about this and Blizzard would never make this official game feature because its based on glitch. Secondly for spectators this would be like invisible war, because no one can actually see who is microing their workers better.
Microing your workers to close mineral patch is enough to do in early game. Later on you can deny enemy mining from close mineral patch with your scouting worker. It's much more efficient way to get ahead in economy, but even in code S most of the players don't do that yet. But that kind of feature is good way to add skill to the game and there should be more features like that.
I can't remember any popular game which offered the ability to gain advantages with small glitches like that. Not a single one.
(Q3, CS, SCBW just off the top of my head. In fact, sometimes glitches create way better mechanics than actual design because, well.. no one thought about it before.)
I know there's glithes that have became game features over time. I remeber especially when BoxeR used glitch to get his vultures through small hole in protoss wall in. But this one is different because its based on unknown fact that workers actually moves little bit slower while harvesting. And the fact that you cant even see the difference doesn't help Starcraft 2 to grow as a game or as a spectator sport at all. It's not one of those cool glitches, this is actually pretty boring for players and spectators.
On August 15 2012 06:01 Mairou wrote: People who think this feature is good because it can increase the possible skill gap between amateur and pro are wrong. This is not good way to add skill to the game.
First of all most people will never even know about this and Blizzard would never make this official game feature because its based on glitch. Secondly for spectators this would be like invisible war, because no one can actually see who is microing their workers better.
Microing your workers to close mineral patch is enough to do in early game. Later on you can deny enemy mining from close mineral patch with your scouting worker. It's much more efficient way to get ahead in economy, but even in code S most of the players don't do that yet. But that kind of feature is good way to add skill to the game and there should be more features like that.
I can't remember any popular game which offered the ability to gain advantages with small glitches like that. Not a single one.
(Q3, CS, SCBW just off the top of my head. In fact, sometimes glitches create way better mechanics than actual design because, well.. no one thought about it before.)
The reason LOZ: Orcarina of Time is so legendary is because of all it's amazing glitches that make the game fun in more ways than was every though possible
On August 15 2012 06:31 kaokentake wrote: if you do this PERFECTLY, it will net you maybe 20 extra minerals by the time you are at 14food and doing this becomes a BAD IDEA
i garuntee if you put 12workers on your minerals, and TRIED to do this you would end up with maybe 101% of the income over TWO MINUTES while spending 100% of your apm on this
so thats like... 5 extra minerals over 2 minutes
and if you put 16 workers on minerals, likely your income would go DOWN
and most games reach 16 workers around the time shortly after the first barracks is thrown down\
this is impossible to fix
but minimal at best (20 mineral increase for a PRO who is pro at doing this)
i see no problem
even a buffed 6pool isnt a problem with this. and its impossible to fix anyway
TERRAN:
12 supply= 1:30 = 5 worker micro= 100
When the first supply depot is finished you usually have 80 minerals if you micro at least 4 workers you have 150 and you can put down your raxx 6-7 FUKING SECONDS SOONER!!!
Now further more a Terran usually scouts at 2:05 14 supply so nothing to do before that you have at least 2 minutes to only micro and build a supply/raxx that's 100 minerals for 5 SCVs and 120 for 6 (I'm assuming this is about how much could be managed) and your CC is down at 3:35 now let's assume that you scout your opponent on the last try (or you don't have to micro it much only patrol which doesn't occupy APM)
3:35 that is around the time CC should go down. Soo assuming that you don't micro each SCV will bring in 140 minerals by the time. If SCVs are micro'd they would bring in about 172 minerals. Soo let's assume that we can only gain 28 extra minerals for each SCV (errors) and we do that for 5 SCVs you receive a bonus of 140 if you do that for 6 you get an extra of 168 now.
168 minerals is an extra raxx you could theoretically pull of the same build order, but add another raxx a couple of seconds before expanding or right just so the first marine starts after the CC (If you did it with more or you wouldn't account my errors.
Soo if you were really good you could have put down a CC and a raxx both at 3:35 and still be even with the other guy doing the same build order (You could put it down earlier, but everything would need to be recalculated because of the mining time lost)
If I made a big a error please correct and comment.
On August 15 2012 06:31 kaokentake wrote: if you do this PERFECTLY, it will net you maybe 20 extra minerals by the time you are at 14food and doing this becomes a BAD IDEA
i garuntee if you put 12workers on your minerals, and TRIED to do this you would end up with maybe 101% of the income over TWO MINUTES while spending 100% of your apm on this
so thats like... 5 extra minerals over 2 minutes
and if you put 16 workers on minerals, likely your income would go DOWN
and most games reach 16 workers around the time shortly after the first barracks is thrown down\
this is impossible to fix
but minimal at best (20 mineral increase for a PRO who is pro at doing this)
i see no problem
even a buffed 6pool isnt a problem with this. and its impossible to fix anyway
TERRAN:
12 supply= 1:30 = 5 worker micro= 100
When the first supply depot is finished you usually have 80 minerals if you micro at least 4 workers you have 150 and you can put down your raxx 6-7 FUKING SECONDS SOONER!!!
This is exactly the kind of data I was looking for Thank you for testing this out, that is a HUGE difference. I like to time when my rax goes down to see how well I'm stacking my workers. It usually goes down 1:38-1:41 so if I can get earlier than that I will be VERY happy.
My question is, can you shift queue the scv to the mineral and then shift click next to the CC, then CC, and then again on the mineral to reduce the delay while delivering? Or while turning around it doesn't cause any delay?
On August 15 2012 06:31 kaokentake wrote: if you do this PERFECTLY, it will net you maybe 20 extra minerals by the time you are at 14food and doing this becomes a BAD IDEA
i garuntee if you put 12workers on your minerals, and TRIED to do this you would end up with maybe 101% of the income over TWO MINUTES while spending 100% of your apm on this
so thats like... 5 extra minerals over 2 minutes
and if you put 16 workers on minerals, likely your income would go DOWN
and most games reach 16 workers around the time shortly after the first barracks is thrown down\
this is impossible to fix
but minimal at best (20 mineral increase for a PRO who is pro at doing this)
i see no problem
even a buffed 6pool isnt a problem with this. and its impossible to fix anyway
TERRAN:
12 supply= 1:30 = 5 worker micro= 100
When the first supply depot is finished you usually have 80 minerals if you micro at least 4 workers you have 150 and you can put down your raxx 6-7 FUKING SECONDS SOONER!!!
This is game changing. Right now pros who scout a terran base do it knowing that the first marine pops out at about 3:11. If this gains popularity it wil completely change the early game.
On August 15 2012 06:51 Moonling wrote: Somebody may have said this already, but this works on mules....
Sadly even with the trick, a MULE can never gather for 10 full trips. Mostlikely it will only gather 30 more mineral but wasted ( rather than not gathered )
Everyone says this is "impossible to fix" but it seems like you could just make units stop at each waypoint for 0 seconds. Then you get acceleration/deceleration on either side of the waypoint and this trick doesn't work anymore. Would adding deceleration/acceleration at waypoints break some other part of the game?
On August 15 2012 06:55 castlewise wrote: Everyone says this is "impossible to fix" but it seems like you could just make units stop at each waypoint for 0 seconds. Then you get acceleration/deceleration on either side of the waypoint and this trick doesn't work anymore. Would adding deceleration/acceleration at waypoints break some other part of the game?
On August 15 2012 06:31 kaokentake wrote: if you do this PERFECTLY, it will net you maybe 20 extra minerals by the time you are at 14food and doing this becomes a BAD IDEA
i garuntee if you put 12workers on your minerals, and TRIED to do this you would end up with maybe 101% of the income over TWO MINUTES while spending 100% of your apm on this
so thats like... 5 extra minerals over 2 minutes
and if you put 16 workers on minerals, likely your income would go DOWN
and most games reach 16 workers around the time shortly after the first barracks is thrown down\
this is impossible to fix
but minimal at best (20 mineral increase for a PRO who is pro at doing this)
i see no problem
even a buffed 6pool isnt a problem with this. and its impossible to fix anyway
TERRAN:
12 supply= 1:30 = 5 worker micro= 100
When the first supply depot is finished you usually have 80 minerals if you micro at least 4 workers you have 150 and you can put down your raxx 6-7 FUKING SECONDS SOONER!!!
This is exactly the kind of data I was looking for Thank you for testing this out, that is a HUGE difference. I like to time when my rax goes down to see how well I'm stacking my workers. It usually goes down 1:38-1:41 so if I can get earlier than that I will be VERY happy.
Oh my god, what if we could beat the 1 second supply block before the first depot finishes?
On August 15 2012 06:55 castlewise wrote: Everyone says this is "impossible to fix" but it seems like you could just make units stop at each waypoint for 0 seconds. Then you get acceleration/deceleration on either side of the waypoint and this trick doesn't work anymore. Would adding deceleration/acceleration at waypoints break some other part of the game?
that doesn't seem like a good option, they could instead make SCVs not decelerate toward minerals, and then just take slightly longer to mine a patch.
On August 15 2012 06:50 Flood1993 wrote: My question is, can you shift queue the scv to the mineral and then shift click next to the CC, then CC, and then again on the mineral to reduce the delay while delivering? Or while turning around it doesn't cause any delay?
I quote myself, I am right now trying to do it and it seems doable, but if not perfectly queued, the drone will go to mine again without returning the minerals.
On August 15 2012 06:31 kaokentake wrote: if you do this PERFECTLY, it will net you maybe 20 extra minerals by the time you are at 14food and doing this becomes a BAD IDEA
i garuntee if you put 12workers on your minerals, and TRIED to do this you would end up with maybe 101% of the income over TWO MINUTES while spending 100% of your apm on this
so thats like... 5 extra minerals over 2 minutes
and if you put 16 workers on minerals, likely your income would go DOWN
and most games reach 16 workers around the time shortly after the first barracks is thrown down\
this is impossible to fix
but minimal at best (20 mineral increase for a PRO who is pro at doing this)
i see no problem
even a buffed 6pool isnt a problem with this. and its impossible to fix anyway
TERRAN:
12 supply= 1:30 = 5 worker micro= 100
When the first supply depot is finished you usually have 80 minerals if you micro at least 4 workers you have 150 and you can put down your raxx 6-7 FUKING SECONDS SOONER!!!
This is exactly the kind of data I was looking for Thank you for testing this out, that is a HUGE difference. I like to time when my rax goes down to see how well I'm stacking my workers. It usually goes down 1:38-1:41 so if I can get earlier than that I will be VERY happy.
Oh my god, what if we could beat the 1 second supply block before the first depot finishes?
mineral stack + mineral boost + get to build position faster (see OP) it's definitely possible
On August 15 2012 06:55 castlewise wrote: Everyone says this is "impossible to fix" but it seems like you could just make units stop at each waypoint for 0 seconds. Then you get acceleration/deceleration on either side of the waypoint and this trick doesn't work anymore. Would adding deceleration/acceleration at waypoints break some other part of the game?
Yes. Scouting workers especially, but as people brought up, basically everything would be affected. Just remove woker acceleration/decleration when they are gathering resources.
What? 24% for each SCV? Imagine if someone just spend all the spamming energy on getting those workers to mine faster for the first few minutes....I thought units slowed down at the waypoints but it seems not to be the case. Is this a bug with 1.5 or has this been true for a while? Interesting...
On August 15 2012 06:55 castlewise wrote: Everyone says this is "impossible to fix" but it seems like you could just make units stop at each waypoint for 0 seconds. Then you get acceleration/deceleration on either side of the waypoint and this trick doesn't work anymore. Would adding deceleration/acceleration at waypoints break some other part of the game?
Scouting for noobs would be very frustating seeing as how many of them que waypoints around main etc..
On August 15 2012 06:51 Moonling wrote: Somebody may have said this already, but this works on mules....
Sadly even with the trick, a MULE can never gather for 10 full trips. Mostlikely it will only gather 30 more mineral but wasted ( rather than not gathered )
Actually it is possible now with this trick. It took me five or more tries, but I finally got a MULE to get all 10 trips barely. You have to do the trick when it moves towards the minerals and than also when it moves to the orbital command. It only works on close mineral patches as far as I can tell.
REPOST: because I edited with further information assuming you 1 raxx expand I calculated that with minor error if you micro 6 workers you can put down an extra raxx at 3:35 when the CC is supposed to go down (If 5 workers are micro'd perfectly and 6 with minor error) 192M extra if 6 and 160M if 5 at 3:35 (no errors)3:35 IS THE 1 RAXX CC TIMING!!!
TERRAN:
12 supply= 1:30 = 5 worker micro= 100
When the first supply depot is finished you usually have 80 minerals if you micro at least 4 workers you have 150 and you can put down your raxx 6-7 FUKING SECONDS SOONER!!!
Now further more a Terran usually scouts at 2:05 14 supply so nothing to do before that you have at least 2 minutes to only micro and build a supply/raxx that's 100 minerals for 5 SCVs and 120 for 6 (I'm assuming this is about how much could be managed) and your CC is down at 3:35 now let's assume that you scout your opponent on the last try (or you don't have to micro it much only patrol which doesn't occupy APM)
3:35 that is around the time CC should go down. Soo assuming that you don't micro each SCV will bring in 140 minerals by the time. If SCVs are micro'd they would bring in about 172 minerals. Soo let's assume that we can only gain 28 extra minerals for each SCV (errors) and we do that for 5 SCVs you receive a bonus of 140 if you do that for 6 you get an extra of 168 now.
168 minerals is an extra raxx you could theoretically pull of the same build order, but add another raxx a couple of seconds before expanding or right just so the first marine starts after the CC (If you did it with more or you wouldn't account my errors.
Soo if you were really good you could have put down a CC and a raxx both at 3:35 and still be even with the other guy doing the same build order (You could put it down earlier, but everything would need to be recalculated because of the mining time lost)
One more question: Did you ever imagine 6 pooling with an extra set of lings well now you can with an extractor trick (you do have 1 spare larva right? I'm not zerg and I don't plan to calculate or study this I'm just giving theoretical possibilties)!
If I made a big a error please correct and comment. PEOPLE THIS IS FUCKING HUGE DON'T MAKE IT OUT TO BE NOTHING. 2 RAXX CC (CC and raxx are simulatinous) IS NOW = NO MICRO 1 RAXX CC
Ohh and can we ask a pro to actually try this trick (I only want to know how many workers he can micro in the first 3:00-4:00 minutes!
On August 15 2012 06:51 Moonling wrote: Somebody may have said this already, but this works on mules....
Sadly even with the trick, a MULE can never gather for 10 full trips. Mostlikely it will only gather 30 more mineral but wasted ( rather than not gathered )
Actually it is possible now with this trick. It took me five or more tries, but I finally got a MULE to get all 10 trips barely. You have to do the trick when it moves towards the minerals and than also when it moves to the orbital command. It only works on close mineral patches as far as I can tell.
By the time the player has Mule, it doesn't really matter anymore. Any slight mistake is far bigger than this advantage. but first depo / rax timing is too important
On August 15 2012 06:51 Moonling wrote: Somebody may have said this already, but this works on mules....
Sadly even with the trick, a MULE can never gather for 10 full trips. Mostlikely it will only gather 30 more mineral but wasted ( rather than not gathered )
Actually it is possible now with this trick. It took me five or more tries, but I finally got a MULE to get all 10 trips barely. You have to do the trick when it moves towards the minerals and than also when it moves to the orbital command. It only works on close mineral patches as far as I can tell.
By the time the player has Mule, it doesn't really matter anymore. Any slight mistake is far bigger than this advantage. but first depo / rax timing is too important
Yeah it's only 30 minerals for an absurd amount of APM just one MULE. One mistake and the 30 minerals are gone. I agree that it's probably not worth the effort.
On August 15 2012 07:06 thezanursic wrote: REPOST: because I edited with further information assuming you 1 raxx expand I calculated that with minor error if you micro 6 workers you can put down an extra raxx at 3:35 when the CC is supposed to go down (If 5 workers are micro'd perfectly and 6 with minor error) 192M extra if 6 and 160M if 5 at 3:35 (no errors)3:35 IS THE 1 RAXX CC TIMING!!!
TERRAN:
12 supply= 1:30 = 5 worker micro= 100
When the first supply depot is finished you usually have 80 minerals if you micro at least 4 workers you have 150 and you can put down your raxx 6-7 FUKING SECONDS SOONER!!!
Now further more a Terran usually scouts at 2:05 14 supply so nothing to do before that you have at least 2 minutes to only micro and build a supply/raxx that's 100 minerals for 5 SCVs and 120 for 6 (I'm assuming this is about how much could be managed) and your CC is down at 3:35 now let's assume that you scout your opponent on the last try (or you don't have to micro it much only patrol which doesn't occupy APM)
3:35 that is around the time CC should go down. Soo assuming that you don't micro each SCV will bring in 140 minerals by the time. If SCVs are micro'd they would bring in about 172 minerals. Soo let's assume that we can only gain 28 extra minerals for each SCV (errors) and we do that for 5 SCVs you receive a bonus of 140 if you do that for 6 you get an extra of 168 now.
168 minerals is an extra raxx you could theoretically pull of the same build order, but add another raxx a couple of seconds before expanding or right just so the first marine starts after the CC (If you did it with more or you wouldn't account my errors.
Soo if you were really good you could have put down a CC and a raxx both at 3:35 and still be even with the other guy doing the same build order (You could put it down earlier, but everything would need to be recalculated because of the mining time lost)
If I made a big a error please correct and comment. PEOPLE THIS IS FUCKING HUGE DON'T MAKE IT OUT TO BE NOTHING. 2 RAXX CC (CC and raxx are simulatinous) IS NOW = NO MICRO 1 RAXX CC
Someone mind making a test under slowest speed for minimum mistake?
I definitely don't think this is useless as some others have posted about it. If this doesn't get patched, every pro will start doing this as if they don't they will fall pretty behind compared to their opponent. By doing this trick, it's like having an extra worker in the early game and when you only have 6 to begin with, it makes up a huge percentage of your overall income.
I hope Blizzard leaves this alone. It gives the players with apm to spare something meaningful to do for the first minute or two instead of boxing workers for no reason. It also has nice risk/reward ratio (lost more than gained/rax down 2 sec sooner) and is very apm/micro intensive so I can't see how this is bad, in my opinion it just adds to the game.
It looks like you could do the same trick when returning minerals to the CC as well, as the scv decelerates before dropping them off. Can somebody verify if it works both ways?
On August 15 2012 07:06 thezanursic wrote: REPOST: because I edited with further information assuming you 1 raxx expand I calculated that with minor error if you micro 6 workers you can put down an extra raxx at 3:35 when the CC is supposed to go down (If 5 workers are micro'd perfectly and 6 with minor error) 192M extra if 6 and 160M if 5 at 3:35 (no errors)3:35 IS THE 1 RAXX CC TIMING!!!
TERRAN:
12 supply= 1:30 = 5 worker micro= 100
When the first supply depot is finished you usually have 80 minerals if you micro at least 4 workers you have 150 and you can put down your raxx 6-7 FUKING SECONDS SOONER!!!
Now further more a Terran usually scouts at 2:05 14 supply so nothing to do before that you have at least 2 minutes to only micro and build a supply/raxx that's 100 minerals for 5 SCVs and 120 for 6 (I'm assuming this is about how much could be managed) and your CC is down at 3:35 now let's assume that you scout your opponent on the last try (or you don't have to micro it much only patrol which doesn't occupy APM)
3:35 that is around the time CC should go down. Soo assuming that you don't micro each SCV will bring in 140 minerals by the time. If SCVs are micro'd they would bring in about 172 minerals. Soo let's assume that we can only gain 28 extra minerals for each SCV (errors) and we do that for 5 SCVs you receive a bonus of 140 if you do that for 6 you get an extra of 168 now.
168 minerals is an extra raxx you could theoretically pull of the same build order, but add another raxx a couple of seconds before expanding or right just so the first marine starts after the CC (If you did it with more or you wouldn't account my errors.
Soo if you were really good you could have put down a CC and a raxx both at 3:35 and still be even with the other guy doing the same build order (You could put it down earlier, but everything would need to be recalculated because of the mining time lost)
If I made a big a error please correct and comment. PEOPLE THIS IS FUCKING HUGE DON'T MAKE IT OUT TO BE NOTHING. 2 RAXX CC (CC and raxx are simulatinous) IS NOW = NO MICRO 1 RAXX CC
Someone mind making a test under slowest speed for minimum mistake?
No on minimum speed you could micro a lot more. We need someone on Fastest to try to maximize the amount of workers someone with high APM can micro. It would be useful if everybody goes and tries it and posts how many they can maintain in the first 3-4 mins. I would do it personally, but my computer with SC2 is in repairs and I personally am a pretty high APM player 250ish (Actual APM not reffering to Blizzard time)
On August 15 2012 06:01 Mairou wrote: People who think this feature is good because it can increase the possible skill gap between amateur and pro are wrong. This is not good way to add skill to the game.
First of all most people will never even know about this and Blizzard would never make this official game feature because its based on glitch. Secondly for spectators this would be like invisible war, because no one can actually see who is microing their workers better.
Microing your workers to close mineral patch is enough to do in early game. Later on you can deny enemy mining from close mineral patch with your scouting worker. It's much more efficient way to get ahead in economy, but even in code S most of the players don't do that yet. But that kind of feature is good way to add skill to the game and there should be more features like that.
I can't remember any popular game which offered the ability to gain advantages with small glitches like that. Not a single one.
(Q3, CS, SCBW just off the top of my head. In fact, sometimes glitches create way better mechanics than actual design because, well.. no one thought about it before.)
On August 15 2012 07:17 Arctura42 wrote: Guys...what about mules?
Works with mules too ofc, everything works the same with actions set before it arrives, example: SCV with action to mine before it arives, SCV to build rax before it arrives etc, as OP stated, you can do this trick for building too, example: tell SCV to go to location while it's going the SHIFT + build rax at the location it's suposed to arrive to. Normally the SCV would deaccelerate before building, with this trick it will place the rax down right away.
On August 15 2012 07:06 thezanursic wrote: REPOST: because I edited with further information assuming you 1 raxx expand I calculated that with minor error if you micro 6 workers you can put down an extra raxx at 3:35 when the CC is supposed to go down (If 5 workers are micro'd perfectly and 6 with minor error) 192M extra if 6 and 160M if 5 at 3:35 (no errors)3:35 IS THE 1 RAXX CC TIMING!!!
TERRAN:
12 supply= 1:30 = 5 worker micro= 100
When the first supply depot is finished you usually have 80 minerals if you micro at least 4 workers you have 150 and you can put down your raxx 6-7 FUKING SECONDS SOONER!!!
Now further more a Terran usually scouts at 2:05 14 supply so nothing to do before that you have at least 2 minutes to only micro and build a supply/raxx that's 100 minerals for 5 SCVs and 120 for 6 (I'm assuming this is about how much could be managed) and your CC is down at 3:35 now let's assume that you scout your opponent on the last try (or you don't have to micro it much only patrol which doesn't occupy APM)
3:35 that is around the time CC should go down. Soo assuming that you don't micro each SCV will bring in 140 minerals by the time. If SCVs are micro'd they would bring in about 172 minerals. Soo let's assume that we can only gain 28 extra minerals for each SCV (errors) and we do that for 5 SCVs you receive a bonus of 140 if you do that for 6 you get an extra of 168 now.
168 minerals is an extra raxx you could theoretically pull of the same build order, but add another raxx a couple of seconds before expanding or right just so the first marine starts after the CC (If you did it with more or you wouldn't account my errors.
Soo if you were really good you could have put down a CC and a raxx both at 3:35 and still be even with the other guy doing the same build order (You could put it down earlier, but everything would need to be recalculated because of the mining time lost)
If I made a big a error please correct and comment. PEOPLE THIS IS FUCKING HUGE DON'T MAKE IT OUT TO BE NOTHING. 2 RAXX CC (CC and raxx are simulatinous) IS NOW = NO MICRO 1 RAXX CC
Someone mind making a test under slowest speed for minimum mistake?
No on minimum speed you could micro a lot more. We need someone on Fastest to try to maximize the amount of workers someone with high APM can micro. It would be useful if everybody goes and tries it and posts how many they can maintain in the first 3-4 mins. I would do it personally, but my computer with SC2 is in repairs and I personally am a pretty high APM player 250ish (Actual APM not reffering to Blizzard time)
Just POC, to be honest i don't believe it can spare me a rax at 3 min...
This is a really cool discovery but IMO there is no reason to get too excited about it. Blizzard will probably just patch this so that it no longer affects mining efficiency. Although this trick works differently from the old "sockfolding", I think their point of view will probably be the same - that it should be "fixed."
On August 15 2012 06:01 Mairou wrote: People who think this feature is good because it can increase the possible skill gap between amateur and pro are wrong. This is not good way to add skill to the game.
First of all most people will never even know about this and Blizzard would never make this official game feature because its based on glitch. Secondly for spectators this would be like invisible war, because no one can actually see who is microing their workers better.
Microing your workers to close mineral patch is enough to do in early game. Later on you can deny enemy mining from close mineral patch with your scouting worker. It's much more efficient way to get ahead in economy, but even in code S most of the players don't do that yet. But that kind of feature is good way to add skill to the game and there should be more features like that.
I can't remember any popular game which offered the ability to gain advantages with small glitches like that. Not a single one.
(Q3, CS, SCBW just off the top of my head. In fact, sometimes glitches create way better mechanics than actual design because, well.. no one thought about it before.)
Tribes....
All the games he mentioned had glitches that eventually became standard in play. He was being sarcastic.
If they fix this, I really hope they fix the mining AI too. It drives me CRAZY when I have to fight the AI to mine efficiently. I set up mining pairs on close mineral patches, they make 2 or so trips and then the ai moves one of them to a further but empty patch. Why does the AI make my mining less efficient?
I tried this and I couldn't get very far with just one SCV. In two minutes, I returned 80 minerals on the same mineral patch. It probably makes more of a distance on mineral patches that are further from the CC (I experimented on the close patches on Daybreak). That said, I think that this method would screw up any mineral stacking, which is also pretty damn beneficial. I know that I won't be able to both mineral stack AND do this shift queue trick effectively. It comes down to the map a bit, because mineral patches that are further away make more of a difference, whereas doing this on close patches could screw up a 2 SCV stack and ultimately be worse.
On August 15 2012 06:14 r.Evo wrote: I can't remember any popular game which offered the ability to gain advantages with small glitches like that. Not a single one.
I wonder how you would classify BW mutalisk stacking
I don't know if they'll bother, but this could be easily fixed without breaking anything else. Simply measure the distance between the shift-clicked waypoints and apply deceleration towards the first waypoint if the second is within the normal deceleration distance.
In other words:
"SCV: to A, then Zee! No need to slow, just go go go!" But SCV, a union man, was wise to boss-man's wiley plan "Before I start, how far apart," the worker said, "Are A and Zed?" "They're pretty close," the boss confessed. "At A I'll take my scheduled rest!"
Will bw pros make it viable? Also, if it works with protoss, will we see rebirth of 4 gate? Build isnt too apm heavy until the engage, it opens some window....
On August 15 2012 07:32 astor wrote: Will bw pros make it viable? Also, if it works with protoss, will we see rebirth of 4 gate? Build isnt too apm heavy until the engage, it opens some window....
No, for 2 reasons:
1: At low level play, no-one has enough APM to use this effectively. 2: The defender has the same advantage, you will have everything faster too.
Also for all those wondering: It should work for Probes and Drones too. I don't see why not. They have the same AI as SCV's as far as mining is concerned.
On August 15 2012 07:32 astor wrote: Will bw pros make it viable? Also, if it works with protoss, will we see rebirth of 4 gate? Build isnt too apm heavy until the engage, it opens some window....
For those of us noobs, i think i found a good way to do this.
Select a worker that is currently mining -- as soon as it is finished mining, the mineral will appear on the worker and it will turn around to return to the cc/nexus/hatch.
As soon as it turns around (not as soon as the mineral appears in its hand -- there is a slight difference that will become evident as you try it), shift+[right click next to the mineral patch and then click on the mineral patch]. The worker will execute the mineral boost on its next trip. you must queue these two commands before the worker returns its minerals
you barely need to move your mouse, elminiating accuracy issues for weaker players, and the timing window that you have to queue the commands is slightly longer.
I tried it a bit, I found it would be reasonable to do 3 workers if I practiced a bit at it. It's not very useful if you have more than one worker on a mineral patch though, so it basically only matters for the first few minutes, and you mine 50 minerals like 5 seconds faster.
I don't think this is intentional by design so I assume it will be fixed. I also hope it will be fixed because I don't think it's a good way to make the game harder by forcing people who do not want to get behind by default to spam click their workers back and forth. But the biggest reason is that this will mostly affect cheeses, which are not fun in any way, especially not when watching pro players who are capable of so much more.
On August 15 2012 07:26 Umpteen wrote: I don't know if they'll bother, but this could be easily fixed without breaking anything else. Simply measure the distance between the shift-clicked waypoints and apply deceleration towards the first waypoint if the second is within the normal deceleration distance.
In other words:
"SCV: to A, then Zee! No need to slow, just go go go!" But SCV, a union man, was wise to boss-man's wiley plan "Before I start, how far apart," the worker said, "Are A and Zed?" "They're pretty close," the boss confessed. "At A I'll take my scheduled rest!"
Am I missing something? Why don't you do this for the trip TO the CC and the trip TO the minerals? Does the scv not naturally slow down when it comes to the CC to return 5 minerals?
On August 15 2012 07:26 Umpteen wrote: I don't know if they'll bother, but this could be easily fixed without breaking anything else. Simply measure the distance between the shift-clicked waypoints and apply deceleration towards the first waypoint if the second is within the normal deceleration distance.
The problem with this approach is you never know when an additional waypoint is added. Basically, you could just add the waypoint last-second. And then, with your method, there are two different speeds that the SCV is supposed to be going at. The new speed based on all waypoints and the old one for a single waypoint.
You could also get around this by adding additional waypoints and then canceling them.
On August 15 2012 07:17 Arctura42 wrote: Guys...what about mules?
wow nice idea. im thinking if u can do it once or twice on the mule and it will return minerals during last trip
I don't think any will ever have the APM to do this trick with MULES. It is an excellent trick that might return more minerals than worker stacking? But by the time MULES are in the game, you have a so many other things you should be doing, there is not a chance you will be able to worry about queue-mining when you have so much else. Maybe, maybe on the very first MULE.
On August 15 2012 07:26 Umpteen wrote: I don't know if they'll bother, but this could be easily fixed without breaking anything else. Simply measure the distance between the shift-clicked waypoints and apply deceleration towards the first waypoint if the second is within the normal deceleration distance.
In other words:
"SCV: to A, then Zee! No need to slow, just go go go!" But SCV, a union man, was wise to boss-man's wiley plan "Before I start, how far apart," the worker said, "Are A and Zed?" "They're pretty close," the boss confessed. "At A I'll take my scheduled rest!"
holy shit, you put this together yourself?
The hard part is coding it without conjuring another 500 bugs out of nowhere, wasting a lot of money and not achieving anything because of one slightly incorrect line of code ^_^
no worker cutting of course, just mineral stacking and the new mineral boost. i think 1:33 is possible.
At how many workers did u get the barrack?
I had eleven workers, i never cut the production. While i was throwing down the barracks i also had an scv queued up and it was half done. Please watch the replay.
Dear Waru...this is big. I'm not sure if I like this or not...but honestly, I'd prefer for Blizzard not to patch this for at least a while...at least long enough to see how things work out.
Huh, I'll try to start using it. It'll be better than spamming 1515151515 for the early game (1 is the worker I use to build my first Pylon, my first non-Pylon building, and then eventually goes to scout, and 5 is my Nexus). Even if I only get a 5% mineral increase, it ought to make a lot of my builds much smoother.
On August 15 2012 07:39 cruelty! wrote: For those of us noobs, i think i found a good way to do this.
Select a worker that is currently mining -- as soon as it is finished mining, the mineral will appear on the worker and it will turn around to return to the cc/nexus/hatch.
As soon as it turns around (not as soon as the mineral appears in its hand -- there is a slight difference that will become evident as you try it), shift+[right click next to the mineral patch and then click on the mineral patch]. The worker will execute the mineral boost on its next trip. you must queue these two commands before the worker returns its minerals
you barely need to move your mouse, elminiating accuracy issues for weaker players, and the timing window that you have to queue the commands is slightly longer.
I think this is by far the best way of using it in a real game. Optimally every worker can be microed twice per trip, towards mineral and towards base. BUT nobody has such APM to cover all workers. To micro a worker twice = 4 clicks, while microing 2 workers = 4 clicks as well, but less movement thus less mistake.
Oh, and of course rally for new workers while microing the initial ones + you can do mineral stack along with mineral boost, it's just one more click anyway..
anyone know a good custom map i can use? I'm trying to find a custom map I can simply restart if I mess up the mining, so I don't have to keep restarting the game. 1v1 obs and peepmode don't work by myself i dont think.
can you do this twice, in other words, shift-click to deliver the minerals as well?
so it goes like this: right click near mineral patch, shift+rightclick mineral patch, shift+rightclick near nexus, shift+c(return cargo). rinse and repeat.
On August 15 2012 07:58 Secret05 wrote: anyone know a good custom map i can use? I'm trying to find a custom map I can simply restart if I mess up the mining, so I don't have to keep restarting the game. 1v1 obs and peepmode don't work by myself i dont think.
SALt or something, you'll have to look in the acrade, it lets you save up at a point in the game and reload to that point, you get 3 saves.
no worker cutting of course, just mineral stacking and the new mineral boost. i think 1:33 is possible.
At how many workers did u get the barrack?
I had eleven workers, i never cut the production. While i was throwing down the barracks i also had an scv queued up and it was half done. Please watch the replay.
I didn't use the new technique and i still threw it down at 1:33. http://drop.sc/238840 Maybe you made a mistake or the new technique isn't that great
no worker cutting of course, just mineral stacking and the new mineral boost. i think 1:33 is possible.
At how many workers did u get the barrack?
I had eleven workers, i never cut the production. While i was throwing down the barracks i also had an scv queued up and it was half done. Please watch the replay.
I didn't use the new technique and i still threw it down at 1:33. http://drop.sc/238840 Maybe you made a mistake or the new technique isn't that great
Both. The technique is too hard to do with so many workers that it makes a difference. Mineral stacking is more effective per apm. also, i had bad luck with my stacked workers... great job, when you look closely at the replay you actually had enough minerals at 1:32 :D
On August 15 2012 08:02 Derrida wrote: can you do this twice, in other words, shift-click to deliver the minerals as well?
so it goes like this: right click near mineral patch, shift+rightclick mineral patch, shift+rightclick near nexus, shift+c(return cargo). rinse and repeat.
shift-clicking the nexus/cc/hatch does nothing for this method you effectively have 2 chances to command the boost while returning the minerals hold shift and [move command and gather]
after returning the minerals move command then shift+mine
with practice, its not that bad. i can manage 5-6 drones boosting all of them with diamond-level apm
On August 15 2012 07:39 cruelty! wrote: For those of us noobs, i think i found a good way to do this.
Select a worker that is currently mining -- as soon as it is finished mining, the mineral will appear on the worker and it will turn around to return to the cc/nexus/hatch.
As soon as it turns around (not as soon as the mineral appears in its hand -- there is a slight difference that will become evident as you try it), shift+[right click next to the mineral patch and then click on the mineral patch]. The worker will execute the mineral boost on its next trip. you must queue these two commands before the worker returns its minerals
you barely need to move your mouse, elminiating accuracy issues for weaker players, and the timing window that you have to queue the commands is slightly longer.
I think this is by far the best way of using it in a real game. Optimally every worker can be microed twice per trip, towards mineral and towards base. BUT nobody has such APM to cover all workers. To micro a worker twice = 4 clicks, while microing 2 workers = 4 clicks as well, but less movement thus less mistake.
Oh, and of course rally for new workers while microing the initial ones + you can do mineral stack along with mineral boost, it's just one more click anyway..
you can't queue 2 boosts if that's what you are saying (or at least I haven't found a way yet)
but its a lot easier when you have 2 chances to input the command per mineral trip
On August 15 2012 08:02 Derrida wrote: can you do this twice, in other words, shift-click to deliver the minerals as well?
so it goes like this: right click near mineral patch, shift+rightclick mineral patch, shift+rightclick near nexus, shift+c(return cargo). rinse and repeat.
shift-clicking the nexus/cc/hatch does nothing for this method you effectively have 2 chances to command the boost while returning the minerals hold shift and [move command and gather]
after returning the minerals move command then shift+mine
with practice, its not that bad. i can manage 5-6 drones boosting all of them with diamond-level apm
On August 15 2012 07:39 cruelty! wrote: For those of us noobs, i think i found a good way to do this.
Select a worker that is currently mining -- as soon as it is finished mining, the mineral will appear on the worker and it will turn around to return to the cc/nexus/hatch.
As soon as it turns around (not as soon as the mineral appears in its hand -- there is a slight difference that will become evident as you try it), shift+[right click next to the mineral patch and then click on the mineral patch]. The worker will execute the mineral boost on its next trip. you must queue these two commands before the worker returns its minerals
you barely need to move your mouse, elminiating accuracy issues for weaker players, and the timing window that you have to queue the commands is slightly longer.
I think this is by far the best way of using it in a real game. Optimally every worker can be microed twice per trip, towards mineral and towards base. BUT nobody has such APM to cover all workers. To micro a worker twice = 4 clicks, while microing 2 workers = 4 clicks as well, but less movement thus less mistake.
Oh, and of course rally for new workers while microing the initial ones + you can do mineral stack along with mineral boost, it's just one more click anyway..
you can't queue 2 boosts if that's what you are saying (or at least I haven't found a way yet)
but its a lot easier when you have 2 chances to input the command per mineral trip
You can queue as many boosts as you can while the worker is returning mineral. But this is not what i meant. I mean it's better to micro 2 different workers than microing the same worker both towards the patch and towards base.
On August 15 2012 07:53 QzYSc2 wrote: yes! with such an mineral boosting trick, 1 base zerg can become viable again!
The limitation of 1base Zerg was always with larvae and gas, not minerals. If you fully saturate, you essentially have a choice between building Roaches and Zerglings. If you build the former, you will never be able to get tech and you'll probably still have a mineral surplus. If you choose the latter, you will never have enough larvae to keep your money down and will have to build a macro hatch (at which point you might as well have just expanded...).
On August 15 2012 06:01 Mairou wrote: People who think this feature is good because it can increase the possible skill gap between amateur and pro are wrong. This is not good way to add skill to the game.
First of all most people will never even know about this and Blizzard would never make this official game feature because its based on glitch. Secondly for spectators this would be like invisible war, because no one can actually see who is microing their workers better.
Microing your workers to close mineral patch is enough to do in early game. Later on you can deny enemy mining from close mineral patch with your scouting worker. It's much more efficient way to get ahead in economy, but even in code S most of the players don't do that yet. But that kind of feature is good way to add skill to the game and there should be more features like that.
The entire ijji GunZ competitive scene is based on glitch abuse. Strafe jumping in quake is based on a physics exploit. Just because it's not an official game feature doesn't mean it can't be a good thing.
On August 15 2012 08:02 Derrida wrote: can you do this twice, in other words, shift-click to deliver the minerals as well?
so it goes like this: right click near mineral patch, shift+rightclick mineral patch, shift+rightclick near nexus, shift+c(return cargo). rinse and repeat.
shift-clicking the nexus/cc/hatch does nothing for this method you effectively have 2 chances to command the boost while returning the minerals hold shift and [move command and gather]
after returning the minerals move command then shift+mine
with practice, its not that bad. i can manage 5-6 drones boosting all of them with diamond-level apm
On August 15 2012 07:39 cruelty! wrote: For those of us noobs, i think i found a good way to do this.
Select a worker that is currently mining -- as soon as it is finished mining, the mineral will appear on the worker and it will turn around to return to the cc/nexus/hatch.
As soon as it turns around (not as soon as the mineral appears in its hand -- there is a slight difference that will become evident as you try it), shift+[right click next to the mineral patch and then click on the mineral patch]. The worker will execute the mineral boost on its next trip. you must queue these two commands before the worker returns its minerals
you barely need to move your mouse, elminiating accuracy issues for weaker players, and the timing window that you have to queue the commands is slightly longer.
I think this is by far the best way of using it in a real game. Optimally every worker can be microed twice per trip, towards mineral and towards base. BUT nobody has such APM to cover all workers. To micro a worker twice = 4 clicks, while microing 2 workers = 4 clicks as well, but less movement thus less mistake.
Oh, and of course rally for new workers while microing the initial ones + you can do mineral stack along with mineral boost, it's just one more click anyway..
you can't queue 2 boosts if that's what you are saying (or at least I haven't found a way yet)
but its a lot easier when you have 2 chances to input the command per mineral trip
This is how you queue boost (only towards mineral) when a worker has just finished gathering, hold SHIFT, then: 1. click near mineral 2. click mineral 3. press C 4. goto 1 Do this as fast as you can before the worker delivers the resource.
On August 15 2012 08:24 TheWisp wrote: This is how you queue boost (only towards mineral) when a worker has just finished gathering, hold SHIFT, then: 1. click near mineral 2. click mineral 3. press C 4. goto 1 Do this as fast as you can before the worker delivers the resource.
You can also just click behind the mineral patch and then click the mineral patch when the worker gets close to it. This will eliminate the acceleration as well, and it's less clicks. Also, it's less likely that Blizzard would fix that because it would involve changing how workers move entirely.
I'm not sure about the alleged 24 per cent increase though... Assuming that CC to mineral, mining, and mineral to CC take roughly equal time, this would mean for 24 per cent increase the CC to mineral part is SIGNIFICANTLY reduced.
no worker cutting of course, just mineral stacking and the new mineral boost. i think 1:33 is possible.
At how many workers did u get the barrack?
I bet at 12, the normal worker count(without cutting) I just tested it on Entombed valley my self and did it at 1:35 without this trick just the normal worker stacking on closer minerals, sometimes I rather use my apm to stack workers since it will be worth it after the 1st minute too, and on top of that I position hotkey 4 places as soon as the game starts.
On August 15 2012 07:26 Umpteen wrote: I don't know if they'll bother, but this could be easily fixed without breaking anything else. Simply measure the distance between the shift-clicked waypoints and apply deceleration towards the first waypoint if the second is within the normal deceleration distance.
The problem with this approach is you never know when an additional waypoint is added. Basically, you could just add the waypoint last-second. And then, with your method, there are two different speeds that the SCV is supposed to be going at. The new speed based on all waypoints and the old one for a single waypoint.
You could also get around this by adding additional waypoints and then canceling them.
First scenario (adding waypoints at the last second): if you leave it till the last instant the SCV will already be decelerating. The code checks how far away the new waypoint is from the first and simply allows the deceleration to continue. If the waypoint is queued earlier, the deceleration will be queued too.
Second scenario (canceling additional waypoints): the test is performed between any sequential waypoints, not just the last. Any very close together waypoints would trigger deceleration.
You could still click past minerals and then on them just as the worker reaches them, but I doubt that would be practical and could be fixed even if it were:
"Just scoot on by," the boss-man said, "No need to stop and mine!" The SCV was sceptical, but hastened from the line. "Now dig!" the boss-man screamed as past the minerals he sped, But SCV demurred, and from the manual he read: "'The operator must, before deploying any drill, Slow the vehicle with the braking pedal, smoothly and until A velocity commensurate with safety is attained.' So by tricking me no notable advantage may be gained."
Nice find, but this got removed before and i'm sure they will just remove this again, it would give skilled players too much of an advantage haha :-P Really interesting thing here though, I actually hope it remains in the game.
it will give your mule 30 extra minerals, potentially 60 on a far patch with perfect boost micro towards the cc and towards the minerals. Mules seem to mine minerals from farther away, so you do need to adjust your micro for your first mule if you plan on using this.
edit: 60 may be unrealistic. the video above says that mineral boosting towards the minerals only increases mining by 4 %. Mineral boosting towards your cc probably adds another 4%.
On August 15 2012 08:02 Derrida wrote: can you do this twice, in other words, shift-click to deliver the minerals as well?
so it goes like this: right click near mineral patch, shift+rightclick mineral patch, shift+rightclick near nexus, shift+c(return cargo). rinse and repeat.
shift-clicking the nexus/cc/hatch does nothing for this method you effectively have 2 chances to command the boost while returning the minerals hold shift and [move command and gather]
after returning the minerals move command then shift+mine
with practice, its not that bad. i can manage 5-6 drones boosting all of them with diamond-level apm
On August 15 2012 07:57 TheWisp wrote:
On August 15 2012 07:39 cruelty! wrote: For those of us noobs, i think i found a good way to do this.
Select a worker that is currently mining -- as soon as it is finished mining, the mineral will appear on the worker and it will turn around to return to the cc/nexus/hatch.
As soon as it turns around (not as soon as the mineral appears in its hand -- there is a slight difference that will become evident as you try it), shift+[right click next to the mineral patch and then click on the mineral patch]. The worker will execute the mineral boost on its next trip. you must queue these two commands before the worker returns its minerals
you barely need to move your mouse, elminiating accuracy issues for weaker players, and the timing window that you have to queue the commands is slightly longer.
I think this is by far the best way of using it in a real game. Optimally every worker can be microed twice per trip, towards mineral and towards base. BUT nobody has such APM to cover all workers. To micro a worker twice = 4 clicks, while microing 2 workers = 4 clicks as well, but less movement thus less mistake.
Oh, and of course rally for new workers while microing the initial ones + you can do mineral stack along with mineral boost, it's just one more click anyway..
you can't queue 2 boosts if that's what you are saying (or at least I haven't found a way yet)
but its a lot easier when you have 2 chances to input the command per mineral trip
You can queue multiple boosts man.
oops sorry, you're right
still, it seems slower for me than just 2-clicking as many drones as possible. im sure we will see some wacky preferences emerge if this stays in the game
Not even close, this method spams return cargo and just keeps doing it for however many times you qued it up.
What?
Right click near the mineral, shift right click on the mineral. Exact same shit.
They are clicking directly on the mineral patch and queing return cargo and clicking it again. Not the same
Did you watch past the first 30 seconds with the sound on where he explains that he is starting by showing his old technique that sadly got patched and doesn't work anymore?
And then did you watch the next 30 seconds where he shows you how to eliminate deceleration by clicking near the mineral and then shift right clicking on the mineral?
On August 15 2012 09:04 Jaeger wrote: Did you watch past the first 30 seconds with the sound on where he explains that he is starting by showing his old technique that sadly got patched and doesn't work anymore?
And then did you watch the next 30 seconds where he shows you how to eliminate deceleration by clicking near the mineral and then shift right clicking on the mineral?
I see what you are saying now, wow nice find indeed.
People talk about 24%, but until I see someone getting any build order out several seconds faster than anyone else can do without this trick, I do not think this will change anything in practice.
It's a neat trick though, and nice to have a fun little mini-game to play first few minutes.
On August 15 2012 09:29 Cascade wrote: People talk about 24%, but until I see someone getting any build order out several seconds faster than anyone else can do without this trick, I do not think this will change anything in practice.
It's a neat trick though, and nice to have a fun little mini-game to play first few minutes.
FWIW sockfolder claimed a 4% increase which seems more reasonable than 24% to me.
It also doesn't scale for shit as if your probe with a bunch of queues gets out of sync and mines from a different mineral patch it breaks hard and one little mistake you lose all the benefits gained.
I feel this should be removed, however it seems like the only way to do it without changing the engine would be to to make an exception for deceleration when mining minerals ( and returning them, because I assume you can do the same on the return trip).
The problem then is all build orders would have to be remade really. Hopefully this will be fixed in the new HOTS engine.
Once you have more than 1 worker per patch it becomes obsolete anyway... It's a nice little trick but I don't see this having a noticable effect really.
This happened before with the old mineral boosting.... Blizzard said they don't want a game mechanic like that in their game, where you can just spam something in null time to "be better". They'll probably nerf this if it's as effective as stated.
I tested and found that it does work on nexus/CC/egg rallys. Might be useful to do it this way as well so new workers will automatically do the trick once.
There will be a point in the game where it won't be much use when the bases become saturated. However when I did this at the start, it got my first Barrack/Depot down considerably faster than it would have normally. I do a a 13Rax Opening and I usually have to wait a few seconds to get the necessary minerals to build it, since I send a scout out on 11. With mineral boosting on a few SCVs, I only waited about 1 second (compared to around 3) before putting down that Barrack after the Depot was done.
Like many others have said, it is just a neat trick that has no real benefit in a game's outcome. Sure it does make you "feel" better by getting extra 20-30 minerals in the first 30 seconds of the game, but seriously.......
On August 15 2012 10:16 Roflhue wrote: Like many others have said, it is just a neat trick that has no real benefit in a game's outcome. Sure it does make you "feel" better by getting extra 20-30 minerals in the first 30 seconds of the game, but seriously.......
Could be really important in PvP or ZvZ to have your initial structures and stuff done 5-10 seconds sooner.
On August 15 2012 10:16 Roflhue wrote: Like many others have said, it is just a neat trick that has no real benefit in a game's outcome. Sure it does make you "feel" better by getting extra 20-30 minerals in the first 30 seconds of the game, but seriously.......
On August 15 2012 10:16 Roflhue wrote: Like many others have said, it is just a neat trick that has no real benefit in a game's outcome. Sure it does make you "feel" better by getting extra 20-30 minerals in the first 30 seconds of the game, but seriously.......
Could be really important in PvP or ZvZ to have your initial structures and stuff done 5-10 seconds sooner.
Yeah, if it could move timings 5-10 seconds it would become a necessary part of most pros openers. But as the moment, we only have theoretical calculations showing that kind of time differences.
We would need several (decently skilled) people to try to get their rax/gateway/we out as fast as possible, on the same position on the same map. Both with and without this trick. If there is a big difference in the best time (5+ seconds), then we need to look into it more.
On August 15 2012 10:16 Roflhue wrote: Like many others have said, it is just a neat trick that has no real benefit in a game's outcome. Sure it does make you "feel" better by getting extra 20-30 minerals in the first 30 seconds of the game, but seriously.......
this might actually be a good way to train apm'ing without mindless spamming at the beginning of each game... and if its not patched away it could make pro level openings and early games alot more interesting... though, would probally make pvp worse lulz
Now the problem with Blizzard trying to fix this is that it's an inherent property of the move command. They have three options.
One: Buff mining as a whole so workers don't decelerate before stopping. Obviously this is the worst solution as it will mess up rates of mining at the pro level substantially, forcing players to rework their timings completely.
Two: Change unit movement so that the units decelerate faster before coming to a halt. At the same rate as workers stop when they stop to mine. Of course this is also a poor option as now, shift clicking workers around bases will make you slow down and get damaged.
Three: Do nothing. This is the best option. This mineral trick rewards good use of APM in the early game but it's nowhere near significant enough to warrant changing how the game works.
On August 15 2012 10:50 neobowman wrote: Now the problem with Blizzard trying to fix this is that it's an inherent property of the move command. They have three options.
One: Buff mining as a whole so workers don't decelerate before stopping. Obviously this is the worst solution as it will mess up rates of mining at the pro level substantially, forcing players to rework their timings completely.
Two: Change unit movement so that the units decelerate faster before coming to a halt. At the same rate as workers stop when they stop to mine. Of course this is also a poor option as now, shift clicking workers around bases will make you slow down and get damaged.
Three: Do nothing. This is the best option. This mineral trick rewards good use of APM in the early game but it's nowhere near significant enough to warrant changing how the game works.
four:
if (distance between waypoint and queued mining < 1 unit) { add deceleration to waypoint; }
this is pseudocode but fixed with no side effects. Hire me blizzard.
I see people talking only about scvs...does this work only for terrans or p and z as well?
So, can someone confirm if this is actually a good thing to do? I know people say it works...but withi all these apm intensive work.... and the guy who put up a barracks at 1:34, can someone confirm if this makes a huge difference?
On August 15 2012 10:50 neobowman wrote: Now the problem with Blizzard trying to fix this is that it's an inherent property of the move command. They have three options.
One: Buff mining as a whole so workers don't decelerate before stopping. Obviously this is the worst solution as it will mess up rates of mining at the pro level substantially, forcing players to rework their timings completely.
Two: Change unit movement so that the units decelerate faster before coming to a halt. At the same rate as workers stop when they stop to mine. Of course this is also a poor option as now, shift clicking workers around bases will make you slow down and get damaged.
Three: Do nothing. This is the best option. This mineral trick rewards good use of APM in the early game but it's nowhere near significant enough to warrant changing how the game works.
i'm fine with 2, players should be punished for waypointing and not manually microing their worker away
On August 15 2012 10:50 neobowman wrote: Now the problem with Blizzard trying to fix this is that it's an inherent property of the move command. They have three options.
One: Buff mining as a whole so workers don't decelerate before stopping. Obviously this is the worst solution as it will mess up rates of mining at the pro level substantially, forcing players to rework their timings completely.
Two: Change unit movement so that the units decelerate faster before coming to a halt. At the same rate as workers stop when they stop to mine. Of course this is also a poor option as now, shift clicking workers around bases will make you slow down and get damaged.
Three: Do nothing. This is the best option. This mineral trick rewards good use of APM in the early game but it's nowhere near significant enough to warrant changing how the game works.
four:
if (distance between waypoint and queued mining < 1 unit) { add deceleration to waypoint; }
this is pseudocode but fixed with no side effects. Hire me blizzard.
please god, just leave it alone.
Things like moving a probe into position to block ling runbys would become much harder without this. ex. rclick, shift+rclick, shift+h
Is it still more efficient to spend your APM on pairing up workers on the closer patches? This may be a good technique for when the first couple workers are building, but when you have 1 worker on every patch I feel like it is more efficient to start pairing up workers on the close patches. It would be interesting to see what nets you more minerals.
I hope it gets patches somehow asap. A lot of you are saying how the player that does this deserves the minerals, but the truth is that this worker micro is not hard at all. It doesn't promote good play, good play should and is something that requires hard work and practice. Not something that can be learned within 3 games.
I don't think this is at all the right way to distinguish between the top tier pros and the rest, not because it's a bug or anything like that, I would happily support highly apm intensive micro tricks and things like that which help split the top pros from the rest, or even a certain build which requires an incredibly micro intensive series of events to pull off.
But if all the top players base their builds off having the 100 extra minerals that microing 5 workers gives then suddenly anyone who doesn't have the apm to micro their workers like this suddenly can't use those builds anymore. Currently, anyone with decent apm can pull off the first few minutes of a pros build, and this is why a lot of people watch the top tournaments or read strategy articles, so they can steal the builds and improve. If suddenly all the players in GSL are using builds that rely on being able to micro their workers like this then suddenly it's almost like the first 2-3 minutes of the game are played on a different patch from anyone who doesn't have the apm to micro their workers like this as all the building timings will be different.
I wouldn't mind it if it was only for certain builds or something, but if every player of every race does it for every build, then suddenly the timings of starcraft which are normally constant, such as the timing of a 6 pool, or the timing of a 4 gate, are now subjective based on the ability to micro workers, and i don't think starcraft would benefit from this subjectiveness.
I feel it's almost like saying to a chess player "if you can solve complex math problems while you play, we will give you a free move every five turns."
On August 15 2012 11:23 Wrathsc2 wrote: I hope it gets patches somehow asap. A lot of you are saying how the player that does this deserves the minerals, but the truth is that this worker micro is not hard at all. It doesn't promote good play, good play should and is something that requires hard work and practice. Not something that can be learned within 3 games.
How is this any different from players at higher level pairing up workers? If you can't keep up your macro behind this trick, it's going to show up regardless of how well you're able to perform this. This rewards high APM, nothing more. Maybe we should patch marine splitting, or individual blink stalker micro, or magic boxing mutas too?
I found and did this trick a long time ago. I was trying to boost the economy etc etc. But the reality is that this trick is irrelevant. Believe me. There is no real gain by doing that. You can´t do it on every worker, there is no time to do it. And the probability of missclick is very high. So it is very easy to delay your minning instead of boost it.
On August 15 2012 11:43 Kallahad wrote: I found and did this trick a long time ago. I was trying to boost the economy etc etc. But the reality is that this trick is irrelevant. Believe me. There is no real gain by doing that. You can´t do it on every worker, there is no time to do it. And the probability of missclick is very high. So it is very easy to delay your minning instead of boost it.
If you can queue them up, you can do a bunch really quickly and have all your workers doing it at once.
On August 15 2012 11:43 Kallahad wrote: I found and did this trick a long time ago. I was trying to boost the economy etc etc. But the reality is that this trick is irrelevant. Believe me. There is no real gain by doing that. You can´t do it on every worker, there is no time to do it. And the probability of missclick is very high. So it is very easy to delay your minning instead of boost it.
If you can queue them up, you can do a bunch really quickly and have all your workers doing it at once.
Go ahead and try it in real games. Kallahad is right. Also it doesn't scale past 1 worker per patch without things messing up and your queues breaking like crazy. In reality you use it on maybe one probe. Things like scouting and doubling up workers on close patches is much more important and a more productive use of your apm.
On August 15 2012 11:23 Wrathsc2 wrote: I hope it gets patches somehow asap. A lot of you are saying how the player that does this deserves the minerals, but the truth is that this worker micro is not hard at all. It doesn't promote good play, good play should and is something that requires hard work and practice. Not something that can be learned within 3 games.
How is this any different from players at higher level pairing up workers? If you can't keep up your macro behind this trick, it's going to show up regardless of how well you're able to perform this. This rewards high APM, nothing more. Maybe we should patch marine splitting, or individual blink stalker micro, or magic boxing mutas too?
did you not read what i said? The microing of units you just listed take actual skill and practice. Pairing up workers and doing this mineral trick DOES NOT. Its not something that takes alot of practice or alot of apm with 6-8 workers.
Oh my god. Just spent a few hours practicing this and I think I figured out how to make it work for every worker up to the 16th. This is so insane, they're like crack probes. I hope no one else figures out how to really take advantage of this, I want to have a little fun for a while.
Anyone saying this is useless needs to spend 6 solid hours playing around and tinkering with it and practicing with it before they comment. It takes more than a few measly games to "test" it. I've spent an entire damned evening doing nothing but and I feel like I just started to scratch the surface of something.
I feel like worker pairing would give a bigger boost in income than this would. I wish I could see a test on mineral pairing vs mineral boosting. I notice about 15-25 extra minerals by 10 supply when worker pairing, depending on how the patches are set up. Pairing also has a long term impact on mineral gain (about 200 minerals per minute for a couple minutes when mineral pairing the first 16 workers then rallying to expansion, as opposed to maynarding half your workers when expo pops, from something like hatch first or 14p/16h, or FFE), whereas you can really only do this for a little bit, and it doesn't continue on.
6 pools just got SO MUCH BETTER THANKS BLIZZARD GREAT GAME on serious note, wow. good find & nice video explaining it! blizz plz fix kk ty, i already fall behind enuff as is ;(
if this works then i just find this stupid. I don't like doing some command to increase mineral gain instead of having more workers or using mules etc.
On August 15 2012 12:57 oogieogie wrote: if this works then i just find this stupid. I don't like doing some command to increase mineral gain instead of having more workers or using mules etc.
... It's people like you who get these things nerfed
Today’s control made it difficult to believe you have a wrist injury. How was it today?
I couldn’t really exert my wrist even in today’s games. It was difficult to mineral boost with my workers at the start. Other than that, it was okay.
I'm pretty sure MVP was talking about the normal worker/mineral technique that everyone does. Having watched quite a few pro streams, I've never seen anyone do the trick from this thread.
On August 15 2012 11:40 Necrophag1st wrote: Completely viable at the highest skill set and definitely unique, good stuff. ...always good to dream
If by "unique" you mean "this is ~ two years old".
IMO, if this was a thing that actually mattered, you'd see pros doing it. People have known about it for forever, but it's not something you see in professional games. The benefits are marginal, and it's only really viable for the first minute or so of the game. With maps being the size they are, I just don't think it's a big deal.
It's hilarious how many kids didn't read the post to understand that this is NOT the same as the trick from two years ago that involved queuing mine and return commands which had about a 7% increase in mining compared to THIS trick which is 24%. Pathetic really the number of idiots who don't spend the five seconds it would take to realize their folly without embarrassing themselves. This is such a huge find, I can't believe it's been over two years since anyone tried something like this. If this isn't patched, pros will want to be doing this every goddamn game. Hell, they'll need to.
^ How stupid are people that they don't read the OP? This is a different trick, the OP made that pretty clear.
These people just need to be warned/banned for clearly not reading the OP and being idiots.
edit: not you. lol you clearly are addressing the same person i was.
I think the 24% figure is a bit drastic, it's talking about a single worker's increased income as in increase in income per minute. You can only do this with one worker, unlike the old method, which you could temporarily automate and do with a bunch of workers at the same time, which at best was 7%, vs this which is just 24% on a single worker for only the time you micro it, which will not be 100% of the time even in the first 2 minutes of the game.
As I stated in a previous post, I don't think that this would be better than just drone pairing, as that yets about 200 minerals increase per minute vs maynarding when you do a build like hatch first then rally to natural or FFE then rally to natural after pairing the first 16 workers.
How does this work once the mineral patch already has a worker on it? This seems like something you would to with the workers you're not stacking. I'm wonder what the most viable way to do this is, because stacking probes already take a bit of work. If it makes probes bounce around it's not good(think of the time lost when an scv has to go all the way from one patch to another.
But it might be useful enough to get a headstart. I wonder how many workers can be done at once.
On August 15 2012 13:21 Cofo wrote: Stop saying this is old, it is NOT sockfolding.
It is sockfolding 2.0. I fail to see how they are any different. They both seek to eliminate deceleration by shift queuing a command near the minerals.
On August 15 2012 13:17 Areon wrote: It's hilarious how many kids didn't read the post to understand that this is NOT the same as the trick from two years ago that involved queuing mine and return commands which had about a 7% increase in mining compared to THIS trick which is 24%. Pathetic really the number of idiots who don't spend the five seconds it would take to realize their folly without embarrassing themselves. This is such a huge find, I can't believe it's been over two years since anyone tried something like this. If this isn't patched, pros will want to be doing this every goddamn game. Hell, they'll need to.
The reading comprehension of the average TL user has reached a new low in my mind. And you think you're disappointed.
Firstly, it's not 24%. Not by a long shot. Secondly, it was pointed out almost two years ago if you actually read the thread you're referring to. Thirdly, the OP hasn't even pointed out that if you're fast enough you can also speed up the SCV on the way back to the CC by shift-queueing return cargo while the SCV is on its way back to the CC. So if you have twice the APM required to pull off this trick, you can get twice the benefit out of it by doubling the effect.
It's another thing people will do (just like worker splitting) that honestly doesn't do shit. Yet everyone will fucking marvel when someone does it awesomely. Click all your probes send them to one patch, split them, it doesn't matter. you still get 50 minerals right when the first worker is done building. So tired of seeing retarded shit like this. And as stated earlier once you get more than one worker per patch it doesn't work either. They'll be waiting for the other probe to finish in the first place.
On August 15 2012 13:46 Infernal_dream wrote: It's another thing people will do (just like worker splitting) that honestly doesn't do shit. Yet everyone will fucking marvel when someone does it awesomely. Click all your probes send them to one patch, split them, it doesn't matter. you still get 50 minerals right when the first worker is done building. So tired of seeing retarded shit like this. And as stated earlier once you get more than one worker per patch it doesn't work either. They'll be waiting for the other probe to finish in the first place.
What do you mean wont do shit? I can imagine players with 400 APM managing can 3 rax with this instead or going 12cc instead of 14cc? We will just have to see the pros use this now
I haven't noticed a huge difference doing this trick (definitely not 24% EDIT: 4%, as said by Sockfolder, seems about right), though I guess I could be doing it incorrectly? I've gotten maybe half an extra mining trip per minute microing a single worker. I saw a small but noticeable change when I started using this trick with 2-3 workers at a time, but it isn't worth the extra concentration in my opinion.
I have noticed that doing the trick will let you get an extra trip out of a MULE, but at the point in the game you'd be using it, minerals aren't a huge concern, you'd need to use it on a new base (non-saturated so you don't click scvs) and the APM can almost always be better spent elsewhere.
EDIT 2: Also, be sure to queue the movement command to directly beneath where the worker was while mining. It's possible to click to closer to the patch, which makes the worker move further than needed, twitch, then start mining, losing time instead of gaining it.
you can actually do this trick towards the mineral and if you have enough APM, you can do it for the trip back to the command center as well...I think you can increase your mineral intake by a LOT
I remember hearing about this a few months back from some glitcher (it wasn't the patched one). He never said any specifics at the time though so this might not be the same trick but still cool to see nonetheless
On Reddit and here (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=360509) people are citing an unverified claim of 24% more efficient mining using the shift click method. After an absurd amount of tries (it's easy to misclick), I've found the max benefit to be less than 5% using a single worker.
Time to mine 100 minerals(with trick): 2:30(+- 1 second) Time to mine 100 minerals (without trick): 2:37(+-1 second)
The difference 7 seconds, equates to 7/157 decrease, which is ~4.4% for 1 worker.
In a real world situation, a fast player would probably be unable to do this trick to more than 3 workers simultaneously. For a 6 pool, this would translate into a max benefit of 2.2%. This benefit is completely nullified should you misclick a single time. Moreover, it does not apply to worker stacking, and has not proven to be better than traditional worker stacking.
I'd welcome any replays to counter the math done here.
On August 15 2012 14:53 TibblesEvilCat wrote: seems like a nightmare trying to do this with pairing at closet patches as well.
Yeah, I'm trying it, but whenever a patch is stacked, I keep accidentally clicking the worker right there, making it follow them. Right now i just pair them and do the mineral trick on the other loner workers
@lolcanoe: At school right now so i cant watch the replay but did you do shift click on Minerals only or did you shift que the way back to the nexus aswell? This might have been why the numbers were higher (but i dont think this would ever make a 20% difference) Will do further testing myself after school
On August 15 2012 13:17 Areon wrote: It's hilarious how many kids didn't read the post to understand that this is NOT the same as the trick from two years ago that involved queuing mine and return commands which had about a 7% increase in mining compared to THIS trick which is 24%. Pathetic really the number of idiots who don't spend the five seconds it would take to realize their folly without embarrassing themselves. This is such a huge find, I can't believe it's been over two years since anyone tried something like this. If this isn't patched, pros will want to be doing this every goddamn game. Hell, they'll need to.
On August 15 2012 13:17 Belial88 wrote: ^ How stupid are people that they don't read the OP? This is a different trick, the OP made that pretty clear.
These people just need to be warned/banned for clearly not reading the OP and being idiots.
edit: not you. lol you clearly are addressing the same person i was.
I think the 24% figure is a bit drastic, it's talking about a single worker's increased income as in increase in income per minute. You can only do this with one worker, unlike the old method, which you could temporarily automate and do with a bunch of workers at the same time, which at best was 7%, vs this which is just 24% on a single worker for only the time you micro it, which will not be 100% of the time even in the first 2 minutes of the game.
As I stated in a previous post, I don't think that this would be better than just drone pairing, as that yets about 200 minerals increase per minute vs maynarding when you do a build like hatch first then rally to natural or FFE then rally to natural after pairing the first 16 workers.
On August 15 2012 13:21 Cofo wrote: Stop saying this is old, it is NOT sockfolding.
I agree people really should learn to read better.
Could one essentially do this trick with their rally point? Rally the CC/nexus/hatch right in front of a mineral patch and then Shift click the rally onto said patch?
On August 15 2012 13:17 Belial88 wrote: ^ How stupid are people that they don't read the OP? This is a different trick, the OP made that pretty clear.
These people just need to be warned/banned for clearly not reading the OP and being idiots.
edit: not you. lol you clearly are addressing the same person i was.
I think the 24% figure is a bit drastic, it's talking about a single worker's increased income as in increase in income per minute. You can only do this with one worker, unlike the old method, which you could temporarily automate and do with a bunch of workers at the same time, which at best was 7%, vs this which is just 24% on a single worker for only the time you micro it, which will not be 100% of the time even in the first 2 minutes of the game.
As I stated in a previous post, I don't think that this would be better than just drone pairing, as that yets about 200 minerals increase per minute vs maynarding when you do a build like hatch first then rally to natural or FFE then rally to natural after pairing the first 16 workers.
no you are wrong, the sock folding technique was reintroduced after the it got patched. he reintroduced it using this exact same method:
you just didn't know it. Also, a poster already said it earlier (jaeger) that it was already done by sockfolder, so you might wanna check at your stupidity levels first before you get the ban you were requesting first hand
If it isn't the same - could you post data please ?
It's not the ultra old trick in 1.1 (or 1.2?) just use queued action to remove decceleration so that the worker will take less time between mineral and base
Even older. It was fixed in the middle of open season 1.
On August 15 2012 13:46 Infernal_dream wrote: It's another thing people will do (just like worker splitting) that honestly doesn't do shit. Yet everyone will fucking marvel when someone does it awesomely. Click all your probes send them to one patch, split them, it doesn't matter. you still get 50 minerals right when the first worker is done building. So tired of seeing retarded shit like this. And as stated earlier once you get more than one worker per patch it doesn't work either. They'll be waiting for the other probe to finish in the first place.
Yeah, unless you do this trick on both the workers so they're going faster together.
On August 15 2012 13:46 Infernal_dream wrote: It's another thing people will do (just like worker splitting) that honestly doesn't do shit. Yet everyone will fucking marvel when someone does it awesomely. Click all your probes send them to one patch, split them, it doesn't matter. you still get 50 minerals right when the first worker is done building. So tired of seeing retarded shit like this. And as stated earlier once you get more than one worker per patch it doesn't work either. They'll be waiting for the other probe to finish in the first place.
The workers splitting isn't only to avoid the workers to split themselves up (even though only that is a valuable reason to do so), but it's also to set up your workers on the closest mineral patch on each side so that when the first workers on the far ones return cargo, you can stack them on the closest one. And I am sure you don't find stacking probes useless; even stacking them on the far patches is worth it because otherwise some workers will just "search" which patch to gather from. It's not like you have any other thing to do at this stage in the game, so why wouldn't you do it? The bonus minerals gathered can really help to speed things up, both in worker production and building structures. It's an almost no risk/low reward thing anyways (the same goes for the splitting).
But I agree that the 24% trick is pretty much useless since it's a high risk/VERY low reward technique. If you misclick only 1 worker, you just lost all the minerals you gained before and more. Even if progamers didn't know this before, they won't start doing it either since stacking on the closest/farther mineral patches is way more valuable. I can see how it can be useful when you rally your nexus (instead of clicking directly on the patch, you do this trick) when you really have nothing else to do, but it's not really gonna change anything anyways.
On August 15 2012 17:52 DarKFoRcE wrote: i really hope this gets patched quickly like the last trick that increased mining speed.
Why would you hope that? If people have enough APM to use on this trick to even make a slight difference, I believe they deserve to have their extra 5 minerals (which is pretty much the maximum amount of bonus minerals you can get before 10 supplies if you are hardcore about it and don't fuck up even once). There is nothing to be patched here. The previous trick was way more easy to pull off (too easy actually), more brainless and way more rewarding.
On August 15 2012 13:46 Infernal_dream wrote: It's another thing people will do (just like worker splitting) that honestly doesn't do shit. Yet everyone will fucking marvel when someone does it awesomely. Click all your probes send them to one patch, split them, it doesn't matter. you still get 50 minerals right when the first worker is done building. So tired of seeing retarded shit like this. And as stated earlier once you get more than one worker per patch it doesn't work either. They'll be waiting for the other probe to finish in the first place.
The workers splitting isn't only to avoid the workers to split themselves up (even though only that is a valuable reason to do so), but it's also to set up your workers on the closest mineral patch on each side so that when the first workers on the far ones return cargo, you can stack them on the closest one. And I am sure you don't find stacking probes useless; even stacking them on the far patches is worth it because otherwise some workers will just "search" which patch to gather from. It's not like you have any other thing to do at this stage in the game, so why wouldn't you do it? The bonus minerals gathered can really help to speed things up, both in worker production and building structures. It's an almost no risk/low reward thing anyways (the same goes for the splitting).
But I agree that the 24% trick is pretty much useless since it's a high risk/VERY low reward technique. If you misclick only 1 worker, you just lost all the minerals you gained before and more. Even if progamers didn't know this before, they won't start doing it either since stacking on the closest/farther mineral patches is way more valuable. I can see how it can be useful when you rally your nexus (instead of clicking directly on the patch, you do this trick) when you really have nothing else to do, but it's not really gonna change anything anyways.
On August 15 2012 17:52 DarKFoRcE wrote: i really hope this gets patched quickly like the last trick that increased mining speed.
Why would you hope that? If people have enough APM to use on this trick to even make a slight difference, I believe they deserve to have their extra 5 minerals (which is pretty much the maximum amount of bonus minerals you can get before 10 supplies if you are hardcore about it and don't fuck up even once). There is nothing to be patched here. The previous trick was way more easy to pull off (too easy actually), more brainless and way more rewarding.
The reason it should be patched is simply because its a pointless APM increase that has no reason to exist beyond that. If the action were in any way interesting than I would be all for it but its not its just mindless and pointless and really shouldnt exist.
On August 15 2012 13:46 Infernal_dream wrote: It's another thing people will do (just like worker splitting) that honestly doesn't do shit. Yet everyone will fucking marvel when someone does it awesomely. Click all your probes send them to one patch, split them, it doesn't matter. you still get 50 minerals right when the first worker is done building. So tired of seeing retarded shit like this. And as stated earlier once you get more than one worker per patch it doesn't work either. They'll be waiting for the other probe to finish in the first place.
The workers splitting isn't only to avoid the workers to split themselves up (even though only that is a valuable reason to do so), but it's also to set up your workers on the closest mineral patch on each side so that when the first workers on the far ones return cargo, you can stack them on the closest one. And I am sure you don't find stacking probes useless; even stacking them on the far patches is worth it because otherwise some workers will just "search" which patch to gather from. It's not like you have any other thing to do at this stage in the game, so why wouldn't you do it? The bonus minerals gathered can really help to speed things up, both in worker production and building structures. It's an almost no risk/low reward thing anyways (the same goes for the splitting).
But I agree that the 24% trick is pretty much useless since it's a high risk/VERY low reward technique. If you misclick only 1 worker, you just lost all the minerals you gained before and more. Even if progamers didn't know this before, they won't start doing it either since stacking on the closest/farther mineral patches is way more valuable. I can see how it can be useful when you rally your nexus (instead of clicking directly on the patch, you do this trick) when you really have nothing else to do, but it's not really gonna change anything anyways.
On August 15 2012 17:52 DarKFoRcE wrote: i really hope this gets patched quickly like the last trick that increased mining speed.
Why would you hope that? If people have enough APM to use on this trick to even make a slight difference, I believe they deserve to have their extra 5 minerals (which is pretty much the maximum amount of bonus minerals you can get before 10 supplies if you are hardcore about it and don't fuck up even once). There is nothing to be patched here. The previous trick was way more easy to pull off (too easy actually), more brainless and way more rewarding.
The reason it should be patched is simply because its a pointless APM increase that has no reason to exist beyond that. If the action were in any way interesting than I would be all for it but its not its just mindless and pointless and really shouldnt exist.
On August 15 2012 13:46 Infernal_dream wrote: It's another thing people will do (just like worker splitting) that honestly doesn't do shit. Yet everyone will fucking marvel when someone does it awesomely. Click all your probes send them to one patch, split them, it doesn't matter. you still get 50 minerals right when the first worker is done building. So tired of seeing retarded shit like this. And as stated earlier once you get more than one worker per patch it doesn't work either. They'll be waiting for the other probe to finish in the first place.
The workers splitting isn't only to avoid the workers to split themselves up (even though only that is a valuable reason to do so), but it's also to set up your workers on the closest mineral patch on each side so that when the first workers on the far ones return cargo, you can stack them on the closest one. And I am sure you don't find stacking probes useless; even stacking them on the far patches is worth it because otherwise some workers will just "search" which patch to gather from. It's not like you have any other thing to do at this stage in the game, so why wouldn't you do it? The bonus minerals gathered can really help to speed things up, both in worker production and building structures. It's an almost no risk/low reward thing anyways (the same goes for the splitting).
But I agree that the 24% trick is pretty much useless since it's a high risk/VERY low reward technique. If you misclick only 1 worker, you just lost all the minerals you gained before and more. Even if progamers didn't know this before, they won't start doing it either since stacking on the closest/farther mineral patches is way more valuable. I can see how it can be useful when you rally your nexus (instead of clicking directly on the patch, you do this trick) when you really have nothing else to do, but it's not really gonna change anything anyways.
On August 15 2012 17:52 DarKFoRcE wrote: i really hope this gets patched quickly like the last trick that increased mining speed.
Why would you hope that? If people have enough APM to use on this trick to even make a slight difference, I believe they deserve to have their extra 5 minerals (which is pretty much the maximum amount of bonus minerals you can get before 10 supplies if you are hardcore about it and don't fuck up even once). There is nothing to be patched here. The previous trick was way more easy to pull off (too easy actually), more brainless and way more rewarding.
The reason it should be patched is simply because its a pointless APM increase that has no reason to exist beyond that. If the action were in any way interesting than I would be all for it but its not its just mindless and pointless and really shouldnt exist.
Well it's not pointless... you get minerals from it. Would you like to remove mining as well? After all it's not very interesting. We could just have games where both sides start with 5k/5k and do what they feel like. Honestly scratch that. It's not exciting enough. Let's just give both players an army and see what happens.
On August 15 2012 13:46 Infernal_dream wrote: It's another thing people will do (just like worker splitting) that honestly doesn't do shit. Yet everyone will fucking marvel when someone does it awesomely. Click all your probes send them to one patch, split them, it doesn't matter. you still get 50 minerals right when the first worker is done building. So tired of seeing retarded shit like this. And as stated earlier once you get more than one worker per patch it doesn't work either. They'll be waiting for the other probe to finish in the first place.
The workers splitting isn't only to avoid the workers to split themselves up (even though only that is a valuable reason to do so), but it's also to set up your workers on the closest mineral patch on each side so that when the first workers on the far ones return cargo, you can stack them on the closest one. And I am sure you don't find stacking probes useless; even stacking them on the far patches is worth it because otherwise some workers will just "search" which patch to gather from. It's not like you have any other thing to do at this stage in the game, so why wouldn't you do it? The bonus minerals gathered can really help to speed things up, both in worker production and building structures. It's an almost no risk/low reward thing anyways (the same goes for the splitting).
But I agree that the 24% trick is pretty much useless since it's a high risk/VERY low reward technique. If you misclick only 1 worker, you just lost all the minerals you gained before and more. Even if progamers didn't know this before, they won't start doing it either since stacking on the closest/farther mineral patches is way more valuable. I can see how it can be useful when you rally your nexus (instead of clicking directly on the patch, you do this trick) when you really have nothing else to do, but it's not really gonna change anything anyways.
On August 15 2012 17:52 DarKFoRcE wrote: i really hope this gets patched quickly like the last trick that increased mining speed.
Why would you hope that? If people have enough APM to use on this trick to even make a slight difference, I believe they deserve to have their extra 5 minerals (which is pretty much the maximum amount of bonus minerals you can get before 10 supplies if you are hardcore about it and don't fuck up even once). There is nothing to be patched here. The previous trick was way more easy to pull off (too easy actually), more brainless and way more rewarding.
The reason it should be patched is simply because its a pointless APM increase that has no reason to exist beyond that. If the action were in any way interesting than I would be all for it but its not its just mindless and pointless and really shouldnt exist.
exactly this.
I'm really surprised with you saying this.
Tricks like this should exist, it's what made BW so awesome. It's a very minor gain with quite a lot of work, it won't win or lose games..but it's that small edge you can get if you're good enough.
On August 15 2012 13:46 Infernal_dream wrote: It's another thing people will do (just like worker splitting) that honestly doesn't do shit. Yet everyone will fucking marvel when someone does it awesomely. Click all your probes send them to one patch, split them, it doesn't matter. you still get 50 minerals right when the first worker is done building. So tired of seeing retarded shit like this. And as stated earlier once you get more than one worker per patch it doesn't work either. They'll be waiting for the other probe to finish in the first place.
The workers splitting isn't only to avoid the workers to split themselves up (even though only that is a valuable reason to do so), but it's also to set up your workers on the closest mineral patch on each side so that when the first workers on the far ones return cargo, you can stack them on the closest one. And I am sure you don't find stacking probes useless; even stacking them on the far patches is worth it because otherwise some workers will just "search" which patch to gather from. It's not like you have any other thing to do at this stage in the game, so why wouldn't you do it? The bonus minerals gathered can really help to speed things up, both in worker production and building structures. It's an almost no risk/low reward thing anyways (the same goes for the splitting).
But I agree that the 24% trick is pretty much useless since it's a high risk/VERY low reward technique. If you misclick only 1 worker, you just lost all the minerals you gained before and more. Even if progamers didn't know this before, they won't start doing it either since stacking on the closest/farther mineral patches is way more valuable. I can see how it can be useful when you rally your nexus (instead of clicking directly on the patch, you do this trick) when you really have nothing else to do, but it's not really gonna change anything anyways.
On August 15 2012 17:52 DarKFoRcE wrote: i really hope this gets patched quickly like the last trick that increased mining speed.
Why would you hope that? If people have enough APM to use on this trick to even make a slight difference, I believe they deserve to have their extra 5 minerals (which is pretty much the maximum amount of bonus minerals you can get before 10 supplies if you are hardcore about it and don't fuck up even once). There is nothing to be patched here. The previous trick was way more easy to pull off (too easy actually), more brainless and way more rewarding.
The reason it should be patched is simply because its a pointless APM increase that has no reason to exist beyond that. If the action were in any way interesting than I would be all for it but its not its just mindless and pointless and really shouldnt exist.
APM requirement increase is a good enough reason in itself. Not everything has to be interesting. It should be there to punish lazy and/or sloppy players that don't do it. Starcraft 2 is hugely lacking in that department anyway, every trick like this should stay in the game as a rule of thumb.
It's normally menial tasks like this that give mechanical (ie actually skilled) players an edge over mediocre players with good build orders. Even though this specific one is rather minor and everyone should be able to do it, it's still better than nothing.
On August 15 2012 13:46 Infernal_dream wrote: It's another thing people will do (just like worker splitting) that honestly doesn't do shit. Yet everyone will fucking marvel when someone does it awesomely. Click all your probes send them to one patch, split them, it doesn't matter. you still get 50 minerals right when the first worker is done building. So tired of seeing retarded shit like this. And as stated earlier once you get more than one worker per patch it doesn't work either. They'll be waiting for the other probe to finish in the first place.
The workers splitting isn't only to avoid the workers to split themselves up (even though only that is a valuable reason to do so), but it's also to set up your workers on the closest mineral patch on each side so that when the first workers on the far ones return cargo, you can stack them on the closest one. And I am sure you don't find stacking probes useless; even stacking them on the far patches is worth it because otherwise some workers will just "search" which patch to gather from. It's not like you have any other thing to do at this stage in the game, so why wouldn't you do it? The bonus minerals gathered can really help to speed things up, both in worker production and building structures. It's an almost no risk/low reward thing anyways (the same goes for the splitting).
But I agree that the 24% trick is pretty much useless since it's a high risk/VERY low reward technique. If you misclick only 1 worker, you just lost all the minerals you gained before and more. Even if progamers didn't know this before, they won't start doing it either since stacking on the closest/farther mineral patches is way more valuable. I can see how it can be useful when you rally your nexus (instead of clicking directly on the patch, you do this trick) when you really have nothing else to do, but it's not really gonna change anything anyways.
On August 15 2012 17:52 DarKFoRcE wrote: i really hope this gets patched quickly like the last trick that increased mining speed.
Why would you hope that? If people have enough APM to use on this trick to even make a slight difference, I believe they deserve to have their extra 5 minerals (which is pretty much the maximum amount of bonus minerals you can get before 10 supplies if you are hardcore about it and don't fuck up even once). There is nothing to be patched here. The previous trick was way more easy to pull off (too easy actually), more brainless and way more rewarding.
The reason it should be patched is simply because its a pointless APM increase that has no reason to exist beyond that. If the action were in any way interesting than I would be all for it but its not its just mindless and pointless and really shouldnt exist.
People spam their APM by boxing their workers anyways, and this is way more mindless than this trick. This technique would reward the people with the most effective APM since it requires precision and thinking if they bother to do it (which, once again, is unlikely since it requires too much APM for such a tiny advantage). This APM intensive trick might not be the most useful, but if you patch it you need to patch all the tricks that are found afterwards, which may be more useful and as APM intensive.
Tricks like these are part of what made BW the game we know today: this high skill ceiling game. In almost every competitive games, unintended "features" like these are found (bunny hopping in CS or skiing in the first Tribes are the ones that come to mind) and unless they are too easy to perform or game breaking, I really think they need to stay.
On August 15 2012 13:46 Infernal_dream wrote: It's another thing people will do (just like worker splitting) that honestly doesn't do shit. Yet everyone will fucking marvel when someone does it awesomely. Click all your probes send them to one patch, split them, it doesn't matter. you still get 50 minerals right when the first worker is done building. So tired of seeing retarded shit like this. And as stated earlier once you get more than one worker per patch it doesn't work either. They'll be waiting for the other probe to finish in the first place.
The workers splitting isn't only to avoid the workers to split themselves up (even though only that is a valuable reason to do so), but it's also to set up your workers on the closest mineral patch on each side so that when the first workers on the far ones return cargo, you can stack them on the closest one. And I am sure you don't find stacking probes useless; even stacking them on the far patches is worth it because otherwise some workers will just "search" which patch to gather from. It's not like you have any other thing to do at this stage in the game, so why wouldn't you do it? The bonus minerals gathered can really help to speed things up, both in worker production and building structures. It's an almost no risk/low reward thing anyways (the same goes for the splitting).
But I agree that the 24% trick is pretty much useless since it's a high risk/VERY low reward technique. If you misclick only 1 worker, you just lost all the minerals you gained before and more. Even if progamers didn't know this before, they won't start doing it either since stacking on the closest/farther mineral patches is way more valuable. I can see how it can be useful when you rally your nexus (instead of clicking directly on the patch, you do this trick) when you really have nothing else to do, but it's not really gonna change anything anyways.
On August 15 2012 17:52 DarKFoRcE wrote: i really hope this gets patched quickly like the last trick that increased mining speed.
Why would you hope that? If people have enough APM to use on this trick to even make a slight difference, I believe they deserve to have their extra 5 minerals (which is pretty much the maximum amount of bonus minerals you can get before 10 supplies if you are hardcore about it and don't fuck up even once). There is nothing to be patched here. The previous trick was way more easy to pull off (too easy actually), more brainless and way more rewarding.
The reason it should be patched is simply because its a pointless APM increase that has no reason to exist beyond that. If the action were in any way interesting than I would be all for it but its not its just mindless and pointless and really shouldnt exist.
exactly this.
As a pro player, shouldn't you want this to stay in the game? More options for players with solid mechanics to garner advantages seems like a good thing for the competitive nature of SC2.
On August 15 2012 19:49 Epoch wrote: wouldn't you mess up the rhythm of workers that are mining close mineral patches like this?
This is why you don't do it with close mineral patches, but only the farther ones. Most of the times there isn't any room to click anyways since there is always a worker mining, combined with a short distance separating the mineral patch from the CC/Nexus/Hatchery.
On August 15 2012 19:49 Epoch wrote: wouldn't you mess up the rhythm of workers that are mining close mineral patches like this?
This is why you don't do it with close mineral patches, but only the farther ones. Most of the times there isn't any room to click anyways since there is always a worker mining, combined with a short distance separating the mineral patch from the CC/Nexus/Hatchery.
Yea, I'd imagine the optimal setup would be stacked workers on the close patches and mineral boost the far patches.
i hope its patched. sc2 needs more interesting and intelligent things that push up the skill ceiling and not brainless mechanics that give an even bigger edge to 14yo old kids that cant think but click fast as hell
sc2 needs more caster units and interesting special abilities, and bigger tech trees and more different units to make the game more complicated and interesting, and thus push the skill ceiling higher without just putting strain on apm
On August 15 2012 13:46 Infernal_dream wrote: It's another thing people will do (just like worker splitting) that honestly doesn't do shit. Yet everyone will fucking marvel when someone does it awesomely. Click all your probes send them to one patch, split them, it doesn't matter. you still get 50 minerals right when the first worker is done building. So tired of seeing retarded shit like this. And as stated earlier once you get more than one worker per patch it doesn't work either. They'll be waiting for the other probe to finish in the first place.
The workers splitting isn't only to avoid the workers to split themselves up (even though only that is a valuable reason to do so), but it's also to set up your workers on the closest mineral patch on each side so that when the first workers on the far ones return cargo, you can stack them on the closest one. And I am sure you don't find stacking probes useless; even stacking them on the far patches is worth it because otherwise some workers will just "search" which patch to gather from. It's not like you have any other thing to do at this stage in the game, so why wouldn't you do it? The bonus minerals gathered can really help to speed things up, both in worker production and building structures. It's an almost no risk/low reward thing anyways (the same goes for the splitting).
But I agree that the 24% trick is pretty much useless since it's a high risk/VERY low reward technique. If you misclick only 1 worker, you just lost all the minerals you gained before and more. Even if progamers didn't know this before, they won't start doing it either since stacking on the closest/farther mineral patches is way more valuable. I can see how it can be useful when you rally your nexus (instead of clicking directly on the patch, you do this trick) when you really have nothing else to do, but it's not really gonna change anything anyways.
On August 15 2012 17:52 DarKFoRcE wrote: i really hope this gets patched quickly like the last trick that increased mining speed.
Why would you hope that? If people have enough APM to use on this trick to even make a slight difference, I believe they deserve to have their extra 5 minerals (which is pretty much the maximum amount of bonus minerals you can get before 10 supplies if you are hardcore about it and don't fuck up even once). There is nothing to be patched here. The previous trick was way more easy to pull off (too easy actually), more brainless and way more rewarding.
The reason it should be patched is simply because its a pointless APM increase that has no reason to exist beyond that. If the action were in any way interesting than I would be all for it but its not its just mindless and pointless and really shouldnt exist.
exactly this.
I'm really surprised with you saying this.
Tricks like this should exist, it's what made BW so awesome. It's a very minor gain with quite a lot of work, it won't win or lose games..but it's that small edge you can get if you're good enough.
More tricks in SC2!
By following this logic there should be a trick that at 3:33 minute mark you have to type "doidfsfnlkdsfndif398383" and this will give you 100 minerals. Yes, it adds more skill to the game, you can spend more apm and will add skill ceiling. Does it add anything interesting to game? No. The same with this mining thing. Viewers can't see it, doesn't involve any skill than just mindless clicking and it doesn't add any depth to game.
Hey stop arguing. you guys want me make a auto mineral boost hack to show you how powerful this can be? i can make it in 3 min. FYI i am programmer and i made quite some wc3 and sc2 hacks. The reason of not keeping it a secret is that i think it sucks as a hack feature...
I think this trick works like this : if you are INSANE INSANE player, you can get a little bit advantage maybe 3 secs earlier putting down rax. which is definitely worthy as a former pro-gamer (not only programmer) i can tell you
ppl wouldn't believe that it's possible to achieve full saturation with 18 workers solely with scheduling algorithm... without any significant APM change ofc.
On August 15 2012 21:15 TheWisp wrote: I think this trick works like this : if you are INSANE INSANE player, you can get a little bit advantage maybe 3 secs earlier putting down rax. which is definitely worthy as a former pro-gamer (not only programmer) i can tell you
Is 7-8 seconds earlier a small advantage? Is having the first mule 7-8 seconds earlier a small advantage? If you can do it for long enough shit snowballs out of control. I think a 15 second advantage in build orders would be doable.
On August 15 2012 13:46 Infernal_dream wrote: It's another thing people will do (just like worker splitting) that honestly doesn't do shit. Yet everyone will fucking marvel when someone does it awesomely. Click all your probes send them to one patch, split them, it doesn't matter. you still get 50 minerals right when the first worker is done building. So tired of seeing retarded shit like this. And as stated earlier once you get more than one worker per patch it doesn't work either. They'll be waiting for the other probe to finish in the first place.
The workers splitting isn't only to avoid the workers to split themselves up (even though only that is a valuable reason to do so), but it's also to set up your workers on the closest mineral patch on each side so that when the first workers on the far ones return cargo, you can stack them on the closest one. And I am sure you don't find stacking probes useless; even stacking them on the far patches is worth it because otherwise some workers will just "search" which patch to gather from. It's not like you have any other thing to do at this stage in the game, so why wouldn't you do it? The bonus minerals gathered can really help to speed things up, both in worker production and building structures. It's an almost no risk/low reward thing anyways (the same goes for the splitting).
But I agree that the 24% trick is pretty much useless since it's a high risk/VERY low reward technique. If you misclick only 1 worker, you just lost all the minerals you gained before and more. Even if progamers didn't know this before, they won't start doing it either since stacking on the closest/farther mineral patches is way more valuable. I can see how it can be useful when you rally your nexus (instead of clicking directly on the patch, you do this trick) when you really have nothing else to do, but it's not really gonna change anything anyways.
On August 15 2012 17:52 DarKFoRcE wrote: i really hope this gets patched quickly like the last trick that increased mining speed.
Why would you hope that? If people have enough APM to use on this trick to even make a slight difference, I believe they deserve to have their extra 5 minerals (which is pretty much the maximum amount of bonus minerals you can get before 10 supplies if you are hardcore about it and don't fuck up even once). There is nothing to be patched here. The previous trick was way more easy to pull off (too easy actually), more brainless and way more rewarding.
I calculated around 200 extra minerals at 3:30 if you constantly micro 6 workers!
On August 15 2012 15:15 DarKcS wrote: Wouldn't stacking close patches and focusing on keeping new workers from floating to far patches be a better use of the same APM?
Not nearly as much. I calculated that the first raxx could be put down around 7 seconds earlier and somebody play tested it and comfirmed it
On August 15 2012 13:46 Infernal_dream wrote: It's another thing people will do (just like worker splitting) that honestly doesn't do shit. Yet everyone will fucking marvel when someone does it awesomely. Click all your probes send them to one patch, split them, it doesn't matter. you still get 50 minerals right when the first worker is done building. So tired of seeing retarded shit like this. And as stated earlier once you get more than one worker per patch it doesn't work either. They'll be waiting for the other probe to finish in the first place.
The workers splitting isn't only to avoid the workers to split themselves up (even though only that is a valuable reason to do so), but it's also to set up your workers on the closest mineral patch on each side so that when the first workers on the far ones return cargo, you can stack them on the closest one. And I am sure you don't find stacking probes useless; even stacking them on the far patches is worth it because otherwise some workers will just "search" which patch to gather from. It's not like you have any other thing to do at this stage in the game, so why wouldn't you do it? The bonus minerals gathered can really help to speed things up, both in worker production and building structures. It's an almost no risk/low reward thing anyways (the same goes for the splitting).
But I agree that the 24% trick is pretty much useless since it's a high risk/VERY low reward technique. If you misclick only 1 worker, you just lost all the minerals you gained before and more. Even if progamers didn't know this before, they won't start doing it either since stacking on the closest/farther mineral patches is way more valuable. I can see how it can be useful when you rally your nexus (instead of clicking directly on the patch, you do this trick) when you really have nothing else to do, but it's not really gonna change anything anyways.
On August 15 2012 17:52 DarKFoRcE wrote: i really hope this gets patched quickly like the last trick that increased mining speed.
Why would you hope that? If people have enough APM to use on this trick to even make a slight difference, I believe they deserve to have their extra 5 minerals (which is pretty much the maximum amount of bonus minerals you can get before 10 supplies if you are hardcore about it and don't fuck up even once). There is nothing to be patched here. The previous trick was way more easy to pull off (too easy actually), more brainless and way more rewarding.
I calculated around 200 extra minerals at 3:30 if you constantly micro 6 workers!
this is interesting. i`ll make a auto mineral boost for my hack soon. by then i`ll know if it's theoritically possible.
On August 15 2012 13:46 Infernal_dream wrote: It's another thing people will do (just like worker splitting) that honestly doesn't do shit. Yet everyone will fucking marvel when someone does it awesomely. Click all your probes send them to one patch, split them, it doesn't matter. you still get 50 minerals right when the first worker is done building. So tired of seeing retarded shit like this. And as stated earlier once you get more than one worker per patch it doesn't work either. They'll be waiting for the other probe to finish in the first place.
What do you mean wont do shit? I can imagine players with 400 APM managing can 3 rax with this instead or going 12cc instead of 14cc? We will just have to see the pros use this now
The benifit is big enough to put buildings down earlier, but it isn't actually big enough to sustain unit production. We can build this buildings a little earlier because it adds over time.
there's another thing: patrolling to a point is unlike moving to a point, it does not involve decceleration at all. perhaps you guys could find better tricks based on that.
On August 15 2012 21:11 TheWisp wrote: Hey stop arguing. you guys want me make a auto mineral boost hack to show you how powerful this can be? i can make it in 3 min. FYI i am programmer and i made quite some wc3 and sc2 hacks. The reason of not keeping it a secret is that i think it sucks as a hack feature...
It would actually be very interesting to see how much faster a bot can mine compared to standard auto-mine. That would settle all the 4-7-24% increase discussion.
edit : nvm, you said above that you will do it. Be sure to post the result here please !
I watched the video and you only apply the method when worker was going to gather minerals. But afaik same principles applies also when reaching to CC.
What happens when you both micro the workers not only for mineral patches but also in return cargo phase?
Simply do the trick for minerals, when worker begin to return, just right click in front of CC and shift-rclick to CC and continue to shift clicking to mineral patches. It should double the effect in theory.
Honestly I can't wait to see how insane it will be in 1-2 years when we watch foreigner vs korean and the korean always has more money and is ahead in bos just because he has perfected this trick in practice. Stuff like this is so good for starcraft as a competition, lets just hope blizzard doesn't patch it out...
Did anyone test it ingame? When I microed 2 workers out of the initial 6 I managed to get extra 10 minerals after 2 mins of mining, thats nowhere near 24%. Am I doing it wrong or is it just not as effective as it seems?
On August 15 2012 22:24 Lorch wrote: Honestly I can't wait to see how insane it will be in 1-2 years when we watch foreigner vs korean and the korean always has more money and is ahead in bos just because he has perfected this trick in practice. Stuff like this is so good for starcraft as a competition, lets just hope blizzard doesn't patch it out...
I dunno. I would rather that players have to micro their units to win rather then having better worker micro.
On August 15 2012 13:46 Infernal_dream wrote: It's another thing people will do (just like worker splitting) that honestly doesn't do shit. Yet everyone will fucking marvel when someone does it awesomely. Click all your probes send them to one patch, split them, it doesn't matter. you still get 50 minerals right when the first worker is done building. So tired of seeing retarded shit like this. And as stated earlier once you get more than one worker per patch it doesn't work either. They'll be waiting for the other probe to finish in the first place.
The workers splitting isn't only to avoid the workers to split themselves up (even though only that is a valuable reason to do so), but it's also to set up your workers on the closest mineral patch on each side so that when the first workers on the far ones return cargo, you can stack them on the closest one. And I am sure you don't find stacking probes useless; even stacking them on the far patches is worth it because otherwise some workers will just "search" which patch to gather from. It's not like you have any other thing to do at this stage in the game, so why wouldn't you do it? The bonus minerals gathered can really help to speed things up, both in worker production and building structures. It's an almost no risk/low reward thing anyways (the same goes for the splitting).
But I agree that the 24% trick is pretty much useless since it's a high risk/VERY low reward technique. If you misclick only 1 worker, you just lost all the minerals you gained before and more. Even if progamers didn't know this before, they won't start doing it either since stacking on the closest/farther mineral patches is way more valuable. I can see how it can be useful when you rally your nexus (instead of clicking directly on the patch, you do this trick) when you really have nothing else to do, but it's not really gonna change anything anyways.
On August 15 2012 17:52 DarKFoRcE wrote: i really hope this gets patched quickly like the last trick that increased mining speed.
Why would you hope that? If people have enough APM to use on this trick to even make a slight difference, I believe they deserve to have their extra 5 minerals (which is pretty much the maximum amount of bonus minerals you can get before 10 supplies if you are hardcore about it and don't fuck up even once). There is nothing to be patched here. The previous trick was way more easy to pull off (too easy actually), more brainless and way more rewarding.
I calculated around 200 extra minerals at 3:30 if you constantly micro 6 workers!
You calculated 200 extra minerals at 0330 based on what? That would be 200/5=40 extra mineral trips or 40/6=6,7 extra trips per scv or 6.7/3.5=1.9 extra trips per scv per minute. A SCV on a far patch does about 9 trips per minute. I call BS on this. The guy that claimed that 24% increase already posted that it was BS and that he made an error. It's quite funny how many people take random numbers serious without thinking about them. 24% increase sure LOL. A mineral trip consists of mining and traveling. This trick makes the traveling a little bit faster. 24%, seriously, guys!
Edit: A few more thoughts: Using this trick only makes sense on far mineral patches, because on close ones you would destroy the pairing. To mine most effective you should: 1. pair workers on close patches without generating long waiting times. Maybe use this boost to sync them up first? 2. make sure that the pairs on close patches don't break up. There are a few close patches on several maps that are quite critical. 3. Always rally new workers to an unused patch or to a patch that syncs up with them. Sometimes it makes sense to pair up workers on long patches first to create empty patches for new workers. 4. mineral boost on far patch(es). But keep in mind, just one unintentional "cross-travel" of a new worker or a break up of a pair on close patches will hurt quite a lot compared to what you can gain through boosting. Mineral boosting does have the lowest priority.
In short: pair up on the close patches----avoid travel times----mineral boost if you have apm left.
it is a cute little trick but the advantage is far apart from what some people are posting here. you cant start your rax 7-8 seconds earlier lol. stop posting nonsense like this or provide a proof in form of a replay(@thezanursic).
i can get up my rax at 1:34 just by stacking my worker on the close mineral patches(on a map like entombed with 4 close mineral patches); replay: http://drop.sc/239017 while there are free mineral patches left you cant do the mineral boost trick with the stacked worker because it messes up the stack and they go to the free patches.
stacking your worker on close mineral patches > minreal boost trick.
what about queuing also the back trip to take the minerals to cc? you first queue to collect them at the patch sites, then you queue before dropping them to cc, should work the same way but double booster..
On August 15 2012 15:15 DarKcS wrote: Wouldn't stacking close patches and focusing on keeping new workers from floating to far patches be a better use of the same APM?
Not nearly as much. I calculated that the first raxx could be put down around 7 seconds earlier and somebody play tested it and comfirmed it
I wonder how far the usefulness of this goes. If you can accumulate enough extra minerals, I wonder if it's possible as Protoss to build your 12gateway without a slight probe delay.
On August 15 2012 13:46 Infernal_dream wrote: It's another thing people will do (just like worker splitting) that honestly doesn't do shit. Yet everyone will fucking marvel when someone does it awesomely. Click all your probes send them to one patch, split them, it doesn't matter. you still get 50 minerals right when the first worker is done building. So tired of seeing retarded shit like this. And as stated earlier once you get more than one worker per patch it doesn't work either. They'll be waiting for the other probe to finish in the first place.
The workers splitting isn't only to avoid the workers to split themselves up (even though only that is a valuable reason to do so), but it's also to set up your workers on the closest mineral patch on each side so that when the first workers on the far ones return cargo, you can stack them on the closest one. And I am sure you don't find stacking probes useless; even stacking them on the far patches is worth it because otherwise some workers will just "search" which patch to gather from. It's not like you have any other thing to do at this stage in the game, so why wouldn't you do it? The bonus minerals gathered can really help to speed things up, both in worker production and building structures. It's an almost no risk/low reward thing anyways (the same goes for the splitting).
But I agree that the 24% trick is pretty much useless since it's a high risk/VERY low reward technique. If you misclick only 1 worker, you just lost all the minerals you gained before and more. Even if progamers didn't know this before, they won't start doing it either since stacking on the closest/farther mineral patches is way more valuable. I can see how it can be useful when you rally your nexus (instead of clicking directly on the patch, you do this trick) when you really have nothing else to do, but it's not really gonna change anything anyways.
On August 15 2012 17:52 DarKFoRcE wrote: i really hope this gets patched quickly like the last trick that increased mining speed.
Why would you hope that? If people have enough APM to use on this trick to even make a slight difference, I believe they deserve to have their extra 5 minerals (which is pretty much the maximum amount of bonus minerals you can get before 10 supplies if you are hardcore about it and don't fuck up even once). There is nothing to be patched here. The previous trick was way more easy to pull off (too easy actually), more brainless and way more rewarding.
I calculated around 200 extra minerals at 3:30 if you constantly micro 6 workers!
You calculated 200 extra minerals at 0330 based on what? That would be 200/5=40 extra mineral trips or 40/6=6,7 extra trips per scv or 6.7/3.5=1.9 extra trips per scv per minute. A SCV on a far patch does about 9 trips per minute. I call BS on this. The guy that claimed that 24% increase already posted that it was BS and that he made an error. It's quite funny how many people take random numbers serious without thinking about them. 24% increase sure LOL. A mineral trip consists of mining and traveling. This trick makes the traveling a little bit faster. 24%, seriously, guys!
Edit: A few more thoughts: Using this trick only makes sense on far mineral patches, because on close ones you would destroy the pairing. To mine most effective you should: 1. pair workers on close patches without generating long waiting times. Maybe use this boost to sync them up first? 2. make sure that the pairs on close patches don't break up. There are a few close patches on several maps that are quite critical. 3. Always rally new workers to an unused patch or to a patch that syncs up with them. Sometimes it makes sense to pair up workers on long patches first to create empty patches for new workers. 4. mineral boost on far patch(es). But keep in mind, just one unintentional "cross-travel" of a new worker or a break up of a pair on close patches will hurt quite a lot compared to what you can gain through boosting. Mineral boosting does have the lowest priority.
In short: pair up on the close patches----avoid travel times----mineral boost if you have apm left.
yea, 24% is exagerated. THe original guy who actaully found this out 2 years ago (same technique) said it's 4%. This is good only til about the 1 min mark in the game. As most ppl don't have the APM to do this past the 1 min mark, worker scout, and keep their timings correct. Also probably can do this to only 2 or 3 workers in that first 1 min. I think it's worth it to get that pool/barracks/gateway earlier by couple seconds but after that you can't let your macro slip anymore as it'll hurt you more than couple extra minerals
On August 15 2012 15:15 DarKcS wrote: Wouldn't stacking close patches and focusing on keeping new workers from floating to far patches be a better use of the same APM?
Not nearly as much. I calculated that the first raxx could be put down around 7 seconds earlier and somebody play tested it and comfirmed it
Well 7 sec earlier that's a lot
just that in the replay posted earlier with the rax @ 1:34 it is a combination of stacking on close mineral patches and mineral boost trick, not just the mineral boost trick alone and like you can see in the replay i posted, it is possible to get the rax at the same time by just stacking on close patches.
i agree with what submarine said: "pair up on the close patches----avoid travel times----mineral boost if you have apm left."
of all the worker micro you can do in the early game, the mineral boost trick seems to be the most apm intensive and the least rewarding one. at least according to my experience.
dont listen to those claiming huge results, the increase in mining is 5% max. Moderators please cut out the misleading 24% reference from OP. The guy who posted it even acknowledged its not true.
Does not seem to be to huge of a deal as some have already said its an interesting way to spend some extra apm at the begging of the game but any advantage it provides would be very limited to the early game and should not have a huge impact on your average game. Its not like anyone has the apm to do this all the time at all of there bases. I see no real reason to be worried about this.
For non cheese openings it's looks like in ZvZ it will help you to get faster 10 pool + faster double extractor trick to get 12\10 supplay on drones. then overlord and 6 lings + queen. With this build each mineral make it faster(especially if you send drone scout) and it is crucial because you want to engage before first lings spawns so you will be able to snipe queen and\or drones so you will get larva advantage and can streight go to the expand or alling. In case of expand it will be good opening for masslings, infestors + defensive banelings and spine, because your opponent will not have good economy for mega roach bust any time soon.
Too bad Blizzard doesn't like these tiny advantages which pros can use (Like the older mineral boost, which was patched out), so I guess we don't have to wait that long before Blizzard "fixes" that in their future patch....
On August 16 2012 00:21 YaShock wrote: Too bad Blizzard doesn't like these tiny advantages which pros can use (Like the older mineral boost, which was patched out), so I guess we don't have to wait that long before Blizzard "fixes" that in their future patch....
I also think they will do something about it. I know I for sure don't have this kind of APM
On August 16 2012 00:21 YaShock wrote: Too bad Blizzard doesn't like these tiny advantages which pros can use (Like the older mineral boost, which was patched out), so I guess we don't have to wait that long before Blizzard "fixes" that in their future patch....
Yeah pros should focus on gimmicky tricks for advantages. :|
On August 15 2012 13:46 Infernal_dream wrote: It's another thing people will do (just like worker splitting) that honestly doesn't do shit. Yet everyone will fucking marvel when someone does it awesomely. Click all your probes send them to one patch, split them, it doesn't matter. you still get 50 minerals right when the first worker is done building. So tired of seeing retarded shit like this. And as stated earlier once you get more than one worker per patch it doesn't work either. They'll be waiting for the other probe to finish in the first place.
The workers splitting isn't only to avoid the workers to split themselves up (even though only that is a valuable reason to do so), but it's also to set up your workers on the closest mineral patch on each side so that when the first workers on the far ones return cargo, you can stack them on the closest one. And I am sure you don't find stacking probes useless; even stacking them on the far patches is worth it because otherwise some workers will just "search" which patch to gather from. It's not like you have any other thing to do at this stage in the game, so why wouldn't you do it? The bonus minerals gathered can really help to speed things up, both in worker production and building structures. It's an almost no risk/low reward thing anyways (the same goes for the splitting).
But I agree that the 24% trick is pretty much useless since it's a high risk/VERY low reward technique. If you misclick only 1 worker, you just lost all the minerals you gained before and more. Even if progamers didn't know this before, they won't start doing it either since stacking on the closest/farther mineral patches is way more valuable. I can see how it can be useful when you rally your nexus (instead of clicking directly on the patch, you do this trick) when you really have nothing else to do, but it's not really gonna change anything anyways.
On August 15 2012 17:52 DarKFoRcE wrote: i really hope this gets patched quickly like the last trick that increased mining speed.
Why would you hope that? If people have enough APM to use on this trick to even make a slight difference, I believe they deserve to have their extra 5 minerals (which is pretty much the maximum amount of bonus minerals you can get before 10 supplies if you are hardcore about it and don't fuck up even once). There is nothing to be patched here. The previous trick was way more easy to pull off (too easy actually), more brainless and way more rewarding.
The reason it should be patched is simply because its a pointless APM increase that has no reason to exist beyond that. If the action were in any way interesting than I would be all for it but its not its just mindless and pointless and really shouldnt exist.
exactly this.
I'm really surprised with you saying this.
Tricks like this should exist, it's what made BW so awesome. It's a very minor gain with quite a lot of work, it won't win or lose games..but it's that small edge you can get if you're good enough.
More tricks in SC2!
By following this logic there should be a trick that at 3:33 minute mark you have to type "doidfsfnlkdsfndif398383" and this will give you 100 minerals. Yes, it adds more skill to the game, you can spend more apm and will add skill ceiling. Does it add anything interesting to game? No. The same with this mining thing. Viewers can't see it, doesn't involve any skill than just mindless clicking and it doesn't add any depth to game.
You're over exaggerating.
Viewers can't see it? Are you blind? Please re-watch the video, you can clearly see scvs bringing back minerals without de-accelerating. I can easily see some pro doing this with 3-4 scvs at once, would look amazing.
What it adds into game is a distinction between faster players and slower ones, a minor one though, yes.
On August 16 2012 00:21 YaShock wrote: Too bad Blizzard doesn't like these tiny advantages which pros can use (Like the older mineral boost, which was patched out), so I guess we don't have to wait that long before Blizzard "fixes" that in their future patch....
Yeah pros should focus on gimmicky tricks for advantages. :|
They already focus on gimmicks anyway.
Tricky build orders, mind games and timings are a hell of a lot more gimmicky ways to get an advantage than something that everyone knows about and everyone can do (if they're fast enough).
What it adds into game is a distinction between faster players and slower ones, a minor one though, yes. What's interesting is relative.
It's almost like last hit or creep denial in most MOBA games. SC2 should also have something that will "entertain", warm up players especially since SC2 so APM demanding it will be nice to see almost constant apm levels at all game stages.
I would like it if blizzard kept a tuned down version of it. Currently it would force every player to do it and build will include it as necessity. With halve the effect it would seem right to me.
Until someone can show some actual video of it actually making a difference and not just, 'In theory you could put down X up to Y seconds quicker!' everyone should chill the fuck out about it. Neat trick, not convinced it matters at all.
i tested how quick a probe with and without mineral boost gathers 50 minerals(from a close mineral patch on daybreak).
with mineral boost it took 62s and without 65s.
to figure out what it means for 1 minute i divided 50/65 and 50/62 and multiplied each with 60s. what i got is that without mineral boost it is ~46,15 and with ~48,39 minerals in 1 minute(~4,85% more). so with each worker you constantly do it you basically get about 2,24 minerals more in 60s. (i am not the best at math, so can someone confirm that the calculation is correct?)
may not be 100% accurate because i did this really quick, but i think it makes it pretty clear that the advantage is very small. maybe someone with more time than me can make a more accurate analysis, but it shouldnt be a big difference.
(dont quote me on that though and wait for some more people testing it!!!)
Those of you asking for this to be fixed, you really don't know what you're getting yourselves into.
The mechanic of the engine that causes floating and flying units to decelerate upon reaching their target unless they receive another order is the same mechanic that makes it possible to micro flying units. The trick that makes your air units change direction quickly if you click inside their selection radius? It would be gone. Along with mutalisk, viking, banshee, and literally every other kind of flying micro. Your units wouldn't respond correctly and you would start whining on the forums.
Even if you hypothetically disabled the shift-queue circumventing deceleration only on floating units, you'd still find it impossible to micro drones, SCVs and probes in fights which would make holding off cheeses that require the aid of your workers almost impossible. Same with sentries.
On August 16 2012 03:12 Martyrc wrote: I think this could be relevant for 6-pools because you could have an extra set of lings, otherwise it wont change too much.
It has no effect on 6 pools if the map has 3 close mineral patches. You can't use boosting on paired drones on close patches, because it breaks up the pair, and mining from close patches is more effective then boosting.
On August 16 2012 03:12 Martyrc wrote: I think this could be relevant for 6-pools because you could have an extra set of lings, otherwise it wont change too much.
It has no effect on 6 pools if the map has 3 close mineral patches. You can't use boosting on paired drones on close patches, because it breaks up the pair, and mining from close patches is more effective then boosting.
Are you sure that 2 drones paired on a close patch mines faster than 1 drone on close and one drone on far both boosting towards the hatchery and towards the minerals? While boosting a far mineral path is slower than simply mining a near one, being able to also boost the near one might make it more optimal.
I'm just speculating with 0 data so take this with a grain of salt.
So much for sc2 being "easy" as pointed out by many. Imagine the 1-1-1 being executed something like 25 game seconds earlier yeah only true pros can pull that off and the bunker rushes F-YEAH the bunker rushes!!!! The idea to nerf this instead of embracing/praising this seems strange unless tournament players are allowed to play under these types rule-sets. Should this be a sort of unintended mechanic I still support it even though I may only click shift mine once or twice per game.
On August 15 2012 13:46 Infernal_dream wrote: It's another thing people will do (just like worker splitting) that honestly doesn't do shit. Yet everyone will fucking marvel when someone does it awesomely. Click all your probes send them to one patch, split them, it doesn't matter. you still get 50 minerals right when the first worker is done building. So tired of seeing retarded shit like this. And as stated earlier once you get more than one worker per patch it doesn't work either. They'll be waiting for the other probe to finish in the first place.
The workers splitting isn't only to avoid the workers to split themselves up (even though only that is a valuable reason to do so), but it's also to set up your workers on the closest mineral patch on each side so that when the first workers on the far ones return cargo, you can stack them on the closest one. And I am sure you don't find stacking probes useless; even stacking them on the far patches is worth it because otherwise some workers will just "search" which patch to gather from. It's not like you have any other thing to do at this stage in the game, so why wouldn't you do it? The bonus minerals gathered can really help to speed things up, both in worker production and building structures. It's an almost no risk/low reward thing anyways (the same goes for the splitting).
But I agree that the 24% trick is pretty much useless since it's a high risk/VERY low reward technique. If you misclick only 1 worker, you just lost all the minerals you gained before and more. Even if progamers didn't know this before, they won't start doing it either since stacking on the closest/farther mineral patches is way more valuable. I can see how it can be useful when you rally your nexus (instead of clicking directly on the patch, you do this trick) when you really have nothing else to do, but it's not really gonna change anything anyways.
On August 15 2012 17:52 DarKFoRcE wrote: i really hope this gets patched quickly like the last trick that increased mining speed.
Why would you hope that? If people have enough APM to use on this trick to even make a slight difference, I believe they deserve to have their extra 5 minerals (which is pretty much the maximum amount of bonus minerals you can get before 10 supplies if you are hardcore about it and don't fuck up even once). There is nothing to be patched here. The previous trick was way more easy to pull off (too easy actually), more brainless and way more rewarding.
The reason it should be patched is simply because its a pointless APM increase that has no reason to exist beyond that. If the action were in any way interesting than I would be all for it but its not its just mindless and pointless and really shouldnt exist.
similar to obs trick and allying your opponent, major tournaments/leagues should immediately ban this. If done correctly, timings can hit 30 seconds faster depending on how you allocate your time etc. Imagine a 6pool/2rax or even a sentry/immortal push while boosting.
On August 15 2012 13:46 Infernal_dream wrote: It's another thing people will do (just like worker splitting) that honestly doesn't do shit. Yet everyone will fucking marvel when someone does it awesomely. Click all your probes send them to one patch, split them, it doesn't matter. you still get 50 minerals right when the first worker is done building. So tired of seeing retarded shit like this. And as stated earlier once you get more than one worker per patch it doesn't work either. They'll be waiting for the other probe to finish in the first place.
The workers splitting isn't only to avoid the workers to split themselves up (even though only that is a valuable reason to do so), but it's also to set up your workers on the closest mineral patch on each side so that when the first workers on the far ones return cargo, you can stack them on the closest one. And I am sure you don't find stacking probes useless; even stacking them on the far patches is worth it because otherwise some workers will just "search" which patch to gather from. It's not like you have any other thing to do at this stage in the game, so why wouldn't you do it? The bonus minerals gathered can really help to speed things up, both in worker production and building structures. It's an almost no risk/low reward thing anyways (the same goes for the splitting).
But I agree that the 24% trick is pretty much useless since it's a high risk/VERY low reward technique. If you misclick only 1 worker, you just lost all the minerals you gained before and more. Even if progamers didn't know this before, they won't start doing it either since stacking on the closest/farther mineral patches is way more valuable. I can see how it can be useful when you rally your nexus (instead of clicking directly on the patch, you do this trick) when you really have nothing else to do, but it's not really gonna change anything anyways.
On August 15 2012 17:52 DarKFoRcE wrote: i really hope this gets patched quickly like the last trick that increased mining speed.
Why would you hope that? If people have enough APM to use on this trick to even make a slight difference, I believe they deserve to have their extra 5 minerals (which is pretty much the maximum amount of bonus minerals you can get before 10 supplies if you are hardcore about it and don't fuck up even once). There is nothing to be patched here. The previous trick was way more easy to pull off (too easy actually), more brainless and way more rewarding.
The reason it should be patched is simply because its a pointless APM increase that has no reason to exist beyond that. If the action were in any way interesting than I would be all for it but its not its just mindless and pointless and really shouldnt exist.
exactly this.
and the fact that mules benefit more from it :D
I don't agree with the idea that it is just pointless spam and that it's uninteresting. I feel like it rewards players for doing it better than other players. It's kind of like in real sports, the player that runs faster is rewarded by overtaking other players. This seems similar to me. I mean, we could say that splitting your workers at the beginning is mindless and pointless and uninteresting, right? So why doesn't blizzard just start the game with your workers already mining? Or have them auto split immediately? If remove everything from the game that we think is uninteresting, I feel like we wouldn't have much of a game left. Click a button that makes the barracks automatically que up a marine when the last one finishes, make queens inject the nearest hatchery at 25 energy automatically. See where I'm going with this?
Though, the mule imbalance is something to be concerned about, I guess.
On August 16 2012 12:13 NeMeSiS3 wrote: similar to obs trick and allying your opponent, major tournaments/leagues should immediately ban this. If done correctly, timings can hit 30 seconds faster depending on how you allocate your time etc. Imagine a 6pool/2rax or even a sentry/immortal push while boosting.
The solution is that the defender needs to be boosting as well. If the attacker boosts better than the defender, or the defender doesn't boost at all, I would say the defender rightfully should be at a disadvantage. Progamers have to push the limits, and in the case of mineral boosting, it would be all about trying to boost as many workers as you can while still executing your build and managing everything else. I don't mind it at all.
On August 16 2012 03:21 tsuxiit wrote: Those of you asking for this to be fixed, you really don't know what you're getting yourselves into.
The mechanic of the engine that causes floating and flying units to decelerate upon reaching their target unless they receive another order is the same mechanic that makes it possible to micro flying units. The trick that makes your air units change direction quickly if you click inside their selection radius? It would be gone. Along with mutalisk, viking, banshee, and literally every other kind of flying micro. Your units wouldn't respond correctly and you would start whining on the forums.
Even if you hypothetically disabled the shift-queue circumventing deceleration only on floating units, you'd still find it impossible to micro drones, SCVs and probes in fights which would make holding off cheeses that require the aid of your workers almost impossible. Same with sentries.
You're making a lot of assumptions here.
There's many ways to fix something like this without affecting every flying unit. One way for example would be to simply have it only apply to workers. How about we leave the speculating about how difficult it would be to fix a bug to the developers.
On August 16 2012 12:13 NeMeSiS3 wrote: similar to obs trick and allying your opponent, major tournaments/leagues should immediately ban this. If done correctly, timings can hit 30 seconds faster depending on how you allocate your time etc. Imagine a 6pool/2rax or even a sentry/immortal push while boosting.
I believe that the stated 24% increase may be an over exaggeration, or even if it isn't, you are still only going to be able to mineral boost on your 5th through 10th scv and mules. The most useful use I see of this is when you do a 10p in teamgames with 2 drones on gas you may be able to get speed 4 seconds earlier. However, I should wait to make any claims until I see the difference when it is applied in a real game scenario.
On August 16 2012 07:59 Tminus____ wrote: So much for sc2 being "easy" as pointed out by many. Imagine the 1-1-1 being executed something like 25 game seconds earlier yeah only true pros can pull that off and the bunker rushes F-YEAH the bunker rushes!!!! The idea to nerf this instead of embracing/praising this seems strange unless tournament players are allowed to play under these types rule-sets. Should this be a sort of unintended mechanic I still support it even though I may only click shift mine once or twice per game.
Compared to BW? This is nothing. But that aside, it's a neat thing pros can do in the early game I suppose.
Has there been any mention on how this would impact stacking. That is, if all of your drones/scvs/probes are already stacked, is there any benefits from say attempting this with 2 workers vs just letting them continue their merry stacked way. I can imagine how you could get faster harvesting, but also can imagine that the timing would become such that the workers would move towards another patch as the mineral patch is occupied.
On August 15 2012 13:46 Infernal_dream wrote: It's another thing people will do (just like worker splitting) that honestly doesn't do shit. Yet everyone will fucking marvel when someone does it awesomely. Click all your probes send them to one patch, split them, it doesn't matter. you still get 50 minerals right when the first worker is done building. So tired of seeing retarded shit like this. And as stated earlier once you get more than one worker per patch it doesn't work either. They'll be waiting for the other probe to finish in the first place.
The workers splitting isn't only to avoid the workers to split themselves up (even though only that is a valuable reason to do so), but it's also to set up your workers on the closest mineral patch on each side so that when the first workers on the far ones return cargo, you can stack them on the closest one. And I am sure you don't find stacking probes useless; even stacking them on the far patches is worth it because otherwise some workers will just "search" which patch to gather from. It's not like you have any other thing to do at this stage in the game, so why wouldn't you do it? The bonus minerals gathered can really help to speed things up, both in worker production and building structures. It's an almost no risk/low reward thing anyways (the same goes for the splitting).
But I agree that the 24% trick is pretty much useless since it's a high risk/VERY low reward technique. If you misclick only 1 worker, you just lost all the minerals you gained before and more. Even if progamers didn't know this before, they won't start doing it either since stacking on the closest/farther mineral patches is way more valuable. I can see how it can be useful when you rally your nexus (instead of clicking directly on the patch, you do this trick) when you really have nothing else to do, but it's not really gonna change anything anyways.
On August 15 2012 17:52 DarKFoRcE wrote: i really hope this gets patched quickly like the last trick that increased mining speed.
Why would you hope that? If people have enough APM to use on this trick to even make a slight difference, I believe they deserve to have their extra 5 minerals (which is pretty much the maximum amount of bonus minerals you can get before 10 supplies if you are hardcore about it and don't fuck up even once). There is nothing to be patched here. The previous trick was way more easy to pull off (too easy actually), more brainless and way more rewarding.
The reason it should be patched is simply because its a pointless APM increase that has no reason to exist beyond that. If the action were in any way interesting than I would be all for it but its not its just mindless and pointless and really shouldnt exist.
exactly this.
and the fact that mules benefit more from it :D
I doubt that you will still have APM to spend on this trick when you can call mules.
God, seeing progamers wanting to patch things like this completely blows my mind. I just can't understand how it's a bad thing for the game. Even if it gave more minerals, it should simply stay in the game because all races can "abuse" it for the first few minutes on the game. People here seem to think a player can justify spending APM on this trick after 2 or 3 minutes into the game, which is completely absurd. And even after 3 minutes of hardcore boosting I don't think you even have 15 bonus minerals, let alone 10.
Nobody's gonna do it with gold mines and nobody's gonna do it with mules. And if people do it they will quickly get behind in all the other aspects of the game. I don't know why Blizzard should spend even 1 second of their time on that nice little trick that does no harm.
EDIT: Also, lol at the people who claim this can increase timings by 25 or 30 seconds. What game are you playing? Are you playing a game against a computer where all you need to do is train workers all game long without looking away for a second? God people love to makes posts when they haven't even tested it yet.
It's really not hard: go in a custom game against a very easy computer or whatever, and boost the best you can for 2 minutes (don't forget to stack the close patches beforehand) and stop at 10 workers. Then, in another custom game, only stack close mineral patches and stop at 10 workers. Compare the minerals gathered, and realize that this is the best mineral bonus you will ever get in the entire game by doing this technique since, afterwards, you need to manage other things than workers. I'm pretty sure the bonus minerals gathered will be 5 at best (if there is any difference at all; it only happened once for me in the 10 test games I did and it can be attributed to other variables).
I don't care if a progamer has 50 or 400 APM; the thing is that this APM will be more useful doing any other thing than mineral boosting after the very beginning of the game. Claiming that this trick can boost timings by 30 seconds is absurd since it implies that you can get more than 20 or even 15 minerals from this trick.
On August 16 2012 13:41 Eventine wrote: (didn't read entire 23 pages sorry)...
Has there been any mention on how this would impact stacking. That is, if all of your drones/scvs/probes are already stacked, is there any benefits from say attempting this with 2 workers vs just letting them continue their merry stacked way. I can imagine how you could get faster harvesting, but also can imagine that the timing would become such that the workers would move towards another patch as the mineral patch is occupied.
On close patches it improves mining by around 1%. On far patches by around 4%. Easy to misclick with 2 workers on a patch or force workers to bounce off to other patches which defeats the whole purpose. Also workers on move command aren't mineral walking so there are potential collision problems.
If you're fast enough you can queue several commands in a row. This is quite a bit of work though. Trebis made a nice video showing how this worked, it would be interesting to see in what way it would alter production queues and timings by a professional. Would they squeeze an extra scv in? 2?
On August 16 2012 03:12 Martyrc wrote: I think this could be relevant for 6-pools because you could have an extra set of lings, otherwise it wont change too much.
It has no effect on 6 pools if the map has 3 close mineral patches. You can't use boosting on paired drones on close patches, because it breaks up the pair, and mining from close patches is more effective then boosting.
Are you sure that 2 drones paired on a close patch mines faster than 1 drone on close and one drone on far both boosting towards the hatchery and towards the minerals? While boosting a far mineral path is slower than simply mining a near one, being able to also boost the near one might make it more optimal.
I'm just speculating with 0 data so take this with a grain of salt.
Well, i thought about that one also, but i guess the gain, if there is any will be very small. While testing in the game i was not able to reach the mining speed of a close patch with a boosted far patch. Maybe someone more talented will be able to put down his pool a little bit faster. I guess compared to this the spawn position have a greater effect on the pool timing, because larvae always spawn on the bottom of a hatch and thats quite bad if your spawn is on the top of the map. If you think about it it takes quite long to recover from this initial extra travel time of every spawned worker.
Over all i think this boosting trick gets overhyped by a huge margin in this thread. There is a reason no one posted a video or replay of a superfast and supertight rax or pooltiming yet. The gains from boosting get overshadowed by other factors like spawning position and random close pair break ups or small slip ups with new rallied workers. Boosting should be the lowest priority worker micro. But it is still nice to know it works, and especially that it works on rally points may be used by pros and optimization fetishists soon. Over all a nice find but not the big revolution some of you might think of.
On August 16 2012 02:39 ShoWTimE94 wrote: i tested how quick a probe with and without mineral boost gathers 50 minerals(from a close mineral patch on daybreak).
with mineral boost it took 62s and without 65s.
to figure out what it means for 1 minute i divided 50/65 and 50/62 and multiplied each with 60s. what i got is that without mineral boost it is ~46,15 and with ~48,39 minerals in 1 minute(~4,85% more). so with each worker you constantly do it you basically get about 2,24 minerals more in 60s. (i am not the best at math, so can someone confirm that the calculation is correct?)
may not be 100% accurate because i did this really quick, but i think it makes it pretty clear that the advantage is very small. maybe someone with more time than me can make a more accurate analysis, but it shouldnt be a big difference.
(dont quote me on that though and wait for some more people testing it!!!)
Thats sound about right. While testing in game the lead i was able to gain in 10 boosted trips compared to 10 normal ones seemed to be a little bit more then 3 seconds, but i was looking at the in game clock and you used real life time i guess.
You also should not look at this with %-points. Mineral gathering in SC2 works incremental in 5 Mineral packets. If you get this last 5 minerals needed for the 1. depot 3 seconds earlier, you can put down that depot 3 seconds earlier. The difference in total mining rate will be very small but the benefit in game is rather large.
I'm fine with it being patched. Why? Because the only way to patch it is that workers would stop on each step of the way points, meaning that it'll be super easy to kill off a worker that's going unsupervised around the base for instance. This means that players will have to spend even more apm to keep their scout alive than they would've done doing this trick.
On August 16 2012 19:39 Euronyme wrote: I'm fine with it being patched. Why? Because the only way to patch it is that workers would stop on each step of the way points, meaning that it'll be super easy to kill off a worker that's going unsupervised around the base for instance. This means that players will have to spend even more apm to keep their scout alive than they would've done doing this trick.
On August 16 2012 19:39 Euronyme wrote: I'm fine with it being patched. Why? Because the only way to patch it is that workers would stop on each step of the way points, meaning that it'll be super easy to kill off a worker that's going unsupervised around the base for instance. This means that players will have to spend even more apm to keep their scout alive than they would've done doing this trick.
This would give everybody the theoretical 24% Extra Mining, which means that freaking EVERY timing, BO and even global strategy (like what you can or can't afford on a certain amount of bases) would be messed up. Trust me, you don't want that. (And btw, it would also most probably heavily tweak the balance)
I became excited when HerO tried to use this after he watched the video on his stream. It didn't seem too taxing on his APM, just anytime he could he would on a probe or two...hopefully we will see more people use this! If Blizzard wants to fix it, I'm not sure how they would
I am having such a hard time understanding why any progamernwould want this patched.. Its just another action players with high apm can use and possibly get an advantage over a slower player.
On August 16 2012 19:39 Euronyme wrote: I'm fine with it being patched. Why? Because the only way to patch it is that workers would stop on each step of the way points, meaning that it'll be super easy to kill off a worker that's going unsupervised around the base for instance. This means that players will have to spend even more apm to keep their scout alive than they would've done doing this trick.
Or just remove acceleration while mining...
So that each race would earn much more money, and mules would get even more of a benefit? I doubt that. They didn't fix the Sockfoling 1.0 with everyone getting a higher income. They just removed the advantage.
On August 16 2012 20:16 submarine wrote: There is no 24% gain. Stop repeating that false number!
This technical detail doesn't really matter (but you're right and i'm sorry, i came across this thread quite fast). You can't just change this very important parameter which is the mineral income for one harvester whithout totally ruining every aspect of the game.
On August 16 2012 20:16 submarine wrote: There is no 24% gain. Stop repeating that false number!
This technical detail doesn't really matter (but you're right and i'm sorry, i came across this thread quite fast). You can't just change this very important parameter which is the mineral income for one harvester whithout totally ruining every aspect of the game.
The boosting has a very minor effect on the actual income. It will be in in the lower single digits for the one or two workers you are doing it with. The effect on the whole income is even smaller. I already wrote down a post about this:
On August 15 2012 13:46 Infernal_dream wrote: It's another thing people will do (just like worker splitting) that honestly doesn't do shit. Yet everyone will fucking marvel when someone does it awesomely. Click all your probes send them to one patch, split them, it doesn't matter. you still get 50 minerals right when the first worker is done building. So tired of seeing retarded shit like this. And as stated earlier once you get more than one worker per patch it doesn't work either. They'll be waiting for the other probe to finish in the first place.
The workers splitting isn't only to avoid the workers to split themselves up (even though only that is a valuable reason to do so), but it's also to set up your workers on the closest mineral patch on each side so that when the first workers on the far ones return cargo, you can stack them on the closest one. And I am sure you don't find stacking probes useless; even stacking them on the far patches is worth it because otherwise some workers will just "search" which patch to gather from. It's not like you have any other thing to do at this stage in the game, so why wouldn't you do it? The bonus minerals gathered can really help to speed things up, both in worker production and building structures. It's an almost no risk/low reward thing anyways (the same goes for the splitting).
But I agree that the 24% trick is pretty much useless since it's a high risk/VERY low reward technique. If you misclick only 1 worker, you just lost all the minerals you gained before and more. Even if progamers didn't know this before, they won't start doing it either since stacking on the closest/farther mineral patches is way more valuable. I can see how it can be useful when you rally your nexus (instead of clicking directly on the patch, you do this trick) when you really have nothing else to do, but it's not really gonna change anything anyways.
On August 15 2012 17:52 DarKFoRcE wrote: i really hope this gets patched quickly like the last trick that increased mining speed.
Why would you hope that? If people have enough APM to use on this trick to even make a slight difference, I believe they deserve to have their extra 5 minerals (which is pretty much the maximum amount of bonus minerals you can get before 10 supplies if you are hardcore about it and don't fuck up even once). There is nothing to be patched here. The previous trick was way more easy to pull off (too easy actually), more brainless and way more rewarding.
I calculated around 200 extra minerals at 3:30 if you constantly micro 6 workers!
You calculated 200 extra minerals at 0330 based on what? That would be 200/5=40 extra mineral trips or 40/6=6,7 extra trips per scv or 6.7/3.5=1.9 extra trips per scv per minute. A SCV on a far patch does about 9 trips per minute. I call BS on this. The guy that claimed that 24% increase already posted that it was BS and that he made an error. It's quite funny how many people take random numbers serious without thinking about them. 24% increase sure LOL. A mineral trip consists of mining and traveling. This trick makes the traveling a little bit faster. 24%, seriously, guys!
Edit: A few more thoughts: Using this trick only makes sense on far mineral patches, because on close ones you would destroy the pairing. To mine most effective you should: 1. pair workers on close patches without generating long waiting times. Maybe use this boost to sync them up first? 2. make sure that the pairs on close patches don't break up. There are a few close patches on several maps that are quite critical. 3. Always rally new workers to an unused patch or to a patch that syncs up with them. Sometimes it makes sense to pair up workers on long patches first to create empty patches for new workers. 4. mineral boost on far patch(es). But keep in mind, just one unintentional "cross-travel" of a new worker or a break up of a pair on close patches will hurt quite a lot compared to what you can gain through boosting. Mineral boosting does have the lowest priority.
In short: pair up on the close patches----avoid travel times----mineral boost if you have apm left.
The boosting has a very minor effect on the actual income. It will be in in the lower single digits for the one or two workers you are doing it with. The effect on the whole income is even smaller.
I was answering people proposing to simply remove worker acceleration (which btw would also accelerate the mining when the drone is returning the minerals and more importantly, the gas)
On August 17 2012 04:26 uzushould wrote: and over are the times where you can chill out the first mins of the game, drink something or tab out on the desk to throw in a song.....
Well, I don't see how you could do that even before, when you need to stack 2/3 close mineral patches, and even farther ones so your probes don't walk everywhere. If you alt-tabbed or drank something before, you can still do it since the boost is even less significant than any mineral stacking...
However, for gas, it may easily become the norm among the professionals because suddenly 2 workers is close to optimal mining and you can afford 1 more worker gathering minerals.
there was plenty of time between mineral stacking, once you stacked your first scvs you rally the new ones on empty patches anyway, and while the cc is building you have some "free time" too very often
Someone should compare a normal 6 pool and a 6 pool with this trick to see the difference in effect. Playing on a slower time setting would make it possible.
wouldnt this mess up worker pairs though? if workers are effectively gathering minerals quicker, wont there be times when workers will get back to the patch too quickly and end up derping around to different patches like they do
On August 17 2012 05:11 chip789 wrote: This would distract me from important things like scouting and executing a perfect timing.
Well, I don't know if you can call that a perfect timing anymore if you are 10/15 minerals late because you didn't boost
I don't think any build in any matchup is so tight that a 2-3 second (of Blizzard time) difference is the deciding factor. If it is, you probably shouldn't be using that build.
Well, now that this trick is well publicized, it will probably be fixed =/. At least it managed to survive a while. This performance of this trick is actually far more complicated that you might expect. It isn't a flat benefit like the original mineral boosting (which cut off a flat 0.5 secs off mining speed). Rather, it seems like patches in some directions or at some spots cause the workers to slow down much more than they should. I found the data I originally collected about this trick, which I calculated by making a custom map that would tell me how long it took for the full mining trip. (FYI it takes 2.8125s for the mining itself). I just tested one spot on Metalopolis (I think) for this data.
(I'm not sure how to make a table on this forum) Distance From CC || Normal Mining Time | Boosted Mining Time | Time Saved 6.5765 || 6.5625 | 6.375 | 0.1875 7.5664 || 7.5625 | 7.1875 | 0.375 6.8007 || 6.6875 | 6.4375 | 0.25 7.6322 || 7.3125 | 7.1875 | 0.125 7.4330 || 7.5625 | 7.125 | 0.4375 6.5 || 7 | 6.5 | 0.5 7.1589 || 7.5625 | 7 | 0.5625 6.1847 || 6.625 | 6.375 | 0.25
So the effectiveness is quite varied. Some patches can save as much as the original mineral boosting trick, some save almost nothing. In addition, if you plot the mining time vs distance, you will see it that it is much more linear for the boosted mining time. This is why I say some patches just have oddly high mining times due to extra deceleration for the workers. I do not know the cause, or how to figure out which patches have this problem other than trial and error. This could actually be quite important for map designers, especially if the mining times are not symmetric (I haven't checked).
On August 18 2012 04:32 sockfolder wrote: Well, now that this trick is well publicized, it will probably be fixed =/. At least it managed to survive a while. This performance of this trick is actually far more complicated that you might expect. It isn't a flat benefit like the original mineral boosting (which cut off a flat 0.5 secs off mining speed). Rather, it seems like patches in some directions or at some spots cause the workers to slow down much more than they should. I found the data I originally collected about this trick, which I calculated by making a custom map that would tell me how long it took for the full mining trip. (FYI it takes 2.8125s for the mining itself). I just tested one spot on Metalopolis (I think) for this data.
(I'm not sure how to make a table on this forum) Distance From CC || Normal Mining Time | Boosted Mining Time | Time Saved 6.5765 || 6.5625 | 6.375 | 0.1875 7.5664 || 7.5625 | 7.1875 | 0.375 6.8007 || 6.6875 | 6.4375 | 0.25 7.6322 || 7.3125 | 7.1875 | 0.125 7.4330 || 7.5625 | 7.125 | 0.4375 6.5 || 7 | 6.5 | 0.5 7.1589 || 7.5625 | 7 | 0.5625 6.1847 || 6.625 | 6.375 | 0.25
So the effectiveness is quite varied. Some patches can save as much as the original mineral boosting trick, some save almost nothing. In addition, if you plot the mining time vs distance, you will see it that it is much more linear for the boosted mining time. This is why I say some patches just have oddly high mining times due to extra deceleration for the workers. I do not know the cause, or how to figure out which patches have this problem other than trial and error. This could actually be quite important for map designers, especially if the mining times are not symmetric (I haven't checked).
Holy fuck you're still around!
You're the poster TL needs sockfolder. Only producing QUALITY posts like this. Not the poster we deserved, but the poster we needed right now.
I don't see a reason for Blizzard to change this effect. As many have already pointed out it requires quite a bit of APM to do pull off and it gives players something to do in the first few minutes of the game. I fail to see how one could keep up with this after the 5 minute mark and especially if they are getting up that second base and maybe dealing with the first bit of harassment.
On August 17 2012 04:40 niteReloaded wrote: This is almost dismissable for mineral mining.
However, for gas, it may easily become the norm among the professionals because suddenly 2 workers is close to optimal mining and you can afford 1 more worker gathering minerals.
Holy fuck, imagine Squirtle playing it out this way. If we count up to 3 bases that's 6 probes more, that could be like a one, one and a half minute boost for any type of aggression? Of course I don't think any non-BW pro would be able to do this type of macro.
So sockfolding (2.0) is back? As long as this kind of mechanics is not intended, blizzard will remove it. Blizzard's definition of "working as intended" may differ from the playerbase's though.
On August 17 2012 05:11 chip789 wrote: This would distract me from important things like scouting and executing a perfect timing.
Well, I don't know if you can call that a perfect timing anymore if you are 10/15 minerals late because you didn't boost
I don't think any build in any matchup is so tight that a 2-3 second (of Blizzard time) difference is the deciding factor. If it is, you probably shouldn't be using that build.
*It's more like starting that CC/Hatchery/Nexus from a FE several seconds earlier; more APM for a slight economic boost, letting you hit your timing slightly earlier than the opponent was expecting, starting your third slightly earlier, meaning you have more units than your opponent at X, Y, and Z timings because of a little early game boost.
What he's talking about is something like the 4-gate, 1-1-1, 6/7pool, etc.
On August 18 2012 05:59 Al Bundy wrote: So sockfolding (2.0) is back? As long as this kind of mechanics is not intended, blizzard will remove it. Blizzard's definition of "working as intended" may differ from the playerbase's though.
This makes me think, if they patch it, they will have to make the SCV not slow down in the first place, so everything will go slightly faster, making the game harder to get into for noobs ever so slightly, while making it easier for players not at the level required to do this boost in the early game.
Interesting, but its not 24% boost. 24 means: when common worker makes 4 iterations, out worker makes 5. Obvious it's not. This technic provides about 3-4% performance boost. Not more
This trick is so awesome it's being used by all the pros, oh wait it's not. Just like in most tournaments you don't even see pros sitting there trying to get their workers to mine on the closer patches. It's all a waste of apm. Even if you put them on the close patch it'll move eventually because they way they cycle.
This is exactly the sort of thing Blizzard should NOT patch. If you put too much effort into this you're going to fuck up your build completely but if you feel you actually have it down to perfection why not waste the rest of your APM on it? I know this will be patched but it would be so cool to see pros do this in the beginning.
This micro technique is quite handy for getting workers to 'stick' on mineral patches. If you set your main building rally to just before the mineral, such as here.+ Show Spoiler +
Then spam shift+right-click on the minerals it will stick first time.
Disregarding any mineral advantage claims, this tip is very helpful to understand how acceleration affects workers and even building construction.
If this really would make a significant change in the mineral income, then it might be something that really push the current "skillcap" (if that exists will say).
On August 19 2012 16:11 Infernal_dream wrote: This trick is so awesome it's being used by all the pros, oh wait it's not. Just like in most tournaments you don't even see pros sitting there trying to get their workers to mine on the closer patches. It's all a waste of apm. Even if you put them on the close patch it'll move eventually because they way they cycle.
A lot of koreans put their workers on the closer patches, not to mention when the old mining boost trick worked they all applied it. I wouldn't be surprised if this is used more often now that it's out.
Quite a few pros actually use this. Suppy does this every single game he streams, it might not be that big of a deal, but its not like you'll need that APM in the beginning anyways.
On August 21 2012 02:08 WMPenn wrote: How close does the move command need to be to the minerals? Cause with my mouse accuracy, im sure to miss a few times haha
Range can vary slightly, but has to be within 25% the distance between nexus and mineral patch it seems. Sometimes my probes hesitate/rotate after the first command, which hurts, but they seem to do that randomly and I'm pretty accurate about where I click... You do have ample time to make an accurate click if you practice just a little bit. In ladder play though I worry about pairing first and then get far patch probes to do this trick up to about 8 or 9 probes, then come back to it at about 12 probes and that's the last time I focus on it.
On August 19 2012 16:11 Infernal_dream wrote: This trick is so awesome it's being used by all the pros, oh wait it's not. Just like in most tournaments you don't even see pros sitting there trying to get their workers to mine on the closer patches. It's all a waste of apm. Even if you put them on the close patch it'll move eventually because they way they cycle.
Uhm... do you watch starcraft 2?
A lot of koreans put their workers on the closer patches, not to mention when the old mining boost trick worked they all applied it. I wouldn't be surprised if this is used more often now that it's out.
Did you read the OP? It's not about pairing on close patches at all.
On August 19 2012 16:11 Infernal_dream wrote: This trick is so awesome it's being used by all the pros, oh wait it's not. Just like in most tournaments you don't even see pros sitting there trying to get their workers to mine on the closer patches. It's all a waste of apm. Even if you put them on the close patch it'll move eventually because they way they cycle.
Uhm... do you watch starcraft 2?
A lot of koreans put their workers on the closer patches, not to mention when the old mining boost trick worked they all applied it. I wouldn't be surprised if this is used more often now that it's out.
Did you read the OP? It's not about pairing on close patches at all.
I'm just curious if it's even worth mastering this sort of technique being how blizz patched it last time? I'll use this every game from now on if so, if not I don't plan on it. Sorry if this was asked already.
This trick is kind of pointless on close patches after you stack up.
A). The probes are pretty much optimized already, with no room for speeding them up. B). The shorter distance and girth of the other worker that's mining the patch makes it difficult to click close enough to the patch. C). Why not make your life easier and optimize a farther away patch's mining?
On August 15 2012 05:10 AmericanUmlaut wrote: I tried this tonight in my ladder games. It takes a bit of practice to find the sweet spot for the rally point, but it really does work. I can keep about two Probes doing this consistently, and it has a noticable impact on the build time of my first Pylon when I FFE. Usually it builds at around 0:50 (actually around 0:51 since I always look for a second to make sure the power field is positioned correctly, but 0:50 is the time I have the money), and I can get it down on 0:48 with this. That can absolutely mean the difference between victory and defeat, when you consider how often early ling aggression comes down to one or two seconds in either direction.
For Protoss, that means a slightly earlier 11th probe (because Protoss suffers a mandatory supply block), which means you'll have a small fraction more probes, starting from fairly early in the game. If this works as you described, even if you stop boosting after your first pylon, that's a decent little edge.
I really feel like blizzard should leave small stuff like this. It only helps raise the skill level of the game imo. Little stuff like this is what helped make bw so great.
On August 23 2012 00:20 The_Unseen wrote: It's been patched with 1.5.2 pathing rearrangements. Does not work anymore.
??? pretty sure it still works. the pathing rearrangements concern the bug that units didnt take the direct way. like probes circle around the nexus etc.
On August 24 2012 00:41 LuckyFool wrote: I really feel like blizzard should leave small stuff like this. It only helps raise the skill level of the game imo. Little stuff like this is what helped make bw so great.
Nah... It would only force you to pointless mechanical grinding. Sure as hell it wouldn't make game better to play. Maybe from spectator point of view it can be something (look how he micro his probes to boost eco!!!) but from player perspective it is abolutely horrible.
It is SC2 not BW, if BW is so great you can still play it.
On August 24 2012 00:41 LuckyFool wrote: I really feel like blizzard should leave small stuff like this. It only helps raise the skill level of the game imo. Little stuff like this is what helped make bw so great.
Nah... It would only force you to pointless mechanical grinding. Sure as hell it wouldn't make game better to play. Maybe from spectator point of view it can be something (look how he micro his probes to boost eco!!!) but from player perspective it is abolutely horrible.
It is SC2 not BW, if BW is so great you can still play it.
You do realize many games changed because of certain bugs? Take quake for example, it spawned a whole new way of jumping. That got through other games like all the id games and even CS had bunny hopping...all because of a small bug.
BW has a ton of exciting stuff like that, muta stacking for one. I'm not claiming this worker rallypointing is glorious enough to be amazed by, but it's a small thing that has very little impact except at very top level when people are rushing.
If you steer a game towards directly what you want, it becomes flawed. Blizzard's methods seem flawed to me. Games should evolve on their own, not be directed by developers.
On August 24 2012 00:41 LuckyFool wrote: I really feel like blizzard should leave small stuff like this. It only helps raise the skill level of the game imo. Little stuff like this is what helped make bw so great.
Nah... It would only force you to pointless mechanical grinding. Sure as hell it wouldn't make game better to play. Maybe from spectator point of view it can be something (look how he micro his probes to boost eco!!!) but from player perspective it is abolutely horrible.
It is SC2 not BW, if BW is so great you can still play it.
On August 24 2012 00:41 LuckyFool wrote: I really feel like blizzard should leave small stuff like this. It only helps raise the skill level of the game imo. Little stuff like this is what helped make bw so great.
Nah... It would only force you to pointless mechanical grinding. Sure as hell it wouldn't make game better to play. Maybe from spectator point of view it can be something (look how he micro his probes to boost eco!!!) but from player perspective it is abolutely horrible.
It is SC2 not BW, if BW is so great you can still play it.
You do realize many games changed because of certain bugs? Take quake for example, it spawned a whole new way of jumping. That got through other games like all the id games and even CS had bunny hopping...all because of a small bug.
BW has a ton of exciting stuff like that, muta stacking for one. I'm not claiming this worker rallypointing is glorious enough to be amazed by, but it's a small thing that has very little impact except at very top level when people are rushing.
If you steer a game towards directly what you want, it becomes flawed. Blizzard's methods seem flawed to me. Games should evolve on their own, not be directed by developers.
hehe but the bunny hop made the game faster and the skill was used in the whole game (made the game better). And most importantly it scaled. As for this it is a simple wall, which are bad in general. You do it and nothing happens, or you don't and you are bound to lose. The only thing this would create is a small area where people will use it to increase the power of an push against people that don't do it. Well that is for the balanced part of this trick, that excludes mules. Sc2 still allows enough things, that actually aren't just you have to waste your apm on this in order to compete, so why keep easy things in that just keep you from doing the more rewarding things. (the ones not everyone can do equally good after a few hours of training) I personally really miss gosu probe early game action.
On August 24 2012 00:41 LuckyFool wrote: I really feel like blizzard should leave small stuff like this. It only helps raise the skill level of the game imo. Little stuff like this is what helped make bw so great.
On August 24 2012 02:30 gustavohmp wrote: Can such trick be used to stop Mutas from deacellerating when attacking?
I don't think so, because that problem arises from the mutas decelerating while carrying out the attack animation... a 'gliding shot', rather than a 'moving shot'...
On August 24 2012 00:41 LuckyFool wrote: I really feel like blizzard should leave small stuff like this. It only helps raise the skill level of the game imo. Little stuff like this is what helped make bw so great.
Nah... It would only force you to pointless mechanical grinding. Sure as hell it wouldn't make game better to play. Maybe from spectator point of view it can be something (look how he micro his probes to boost eco!!!) but from player perspective it is abolutely horrible.
It is SC2 not BW, if BW is so great you can still play it.
This is just so wrong in so many ways...
Stuff like that is exactly what SCII needs badly.
Care to elaborate?
And no, SC2 doesn't need those things, it needs more units for Z and P that benefit from good micro (like a marines). To deliberately make primitive UI and buggy mechanics is the worst possible way to balance game. And why is that? Because then game might be good to watching but sure as hell is not funny to play (to prove my point: outside of Korea BW wasn't wildly popular, nor gathered huge audience - on the contrary SC2 is a huge success on international scene).
P.S. When I scan BW forum I still read posts that BW is such a wonderful game, but funnily enough there is also a lot of post where people ranting that there aren't many people to play.
On August 24 2012 00:41 LuckyFool wrote: I really feel like blizzard should leave small stuff like this. It only helps raise the skill level of the game imo. Little stuff like this is what helped make bw so great.
Nah... It would only force you to pointless mechanical grinding. Sure as hell it wouldn't make game better to play. Maybe from spectator point of view it can be something (look how he micro his probes to boost eco!!!) but from player perspective it is abolutely horrible.
It is SC2 not BW, if BW is so great you can still play it.
This is just so wrong in so many ways...
Stuff like that is exactly what SCII needs badly.
Care to elaborate?
And no, SC2 doesn't need those things, it needs more units for Z and P that benefit from good micro (like a marines). To deliberately make primitive UI and buggy mechanics is the worst possible way to balance game. And why is that? Because then game might be good to watching but sure as hell is not funny to play (to prove my point: outside of Korea BW wasn't wildly popular, nor gathered huge audience - on the contrary SC2 is a huge success on international scene).
P.S. When I scan BW forum I still read posts that BW is such a wonderful game, but funnily enough there is also a lot of post where people ranting that there aren't many people to play.
it is a wonderful game. and people don't play it much because people tend to like to play newer games.
it's a marginal gain and only really affect the early stages, and it is not as simple as the other(first) mineral boost technique. You might get an edge but it is not a huge edge. So why "fix" it? It's not even broken.
as someone earlier stated, keeping this mineral patch boost is stupid because a: it's useless in terms of making the game more enjoyable and b: with the logic people are defending it with, one might as well create something like "at 11:25 if you type pronfbdsbuiohaiuhsadölksa22222222a b cWORLDOFWARCRAFTWRATHOFTHELICHKINGXD you will gain 10 more drones"
It's nothing serious, it's stupid and doesnt in any way improve the joy of the game.
The good thing is that it uses up apm in a phase, where there is a lot of apm to spend. It will also make it interesting at least in the first 4 minutes, to see who can mine faster (especially in mirrors). At the same time it does not give such a huge advantage that it is forced on anybody except maybe pros.
Wow, deja vu to the max. Never even got why they originally removed this, it doesn't actually do anything substantial so who cares? Just helps people focus without technically "spamming" early in the game.
So....just to confirm, is this worth using? Its only...4% gain right? Or should my APM be used elsewhere? If it can get me few seconds earlier barracks then maybe its pretty good? OR will it jst interfere with my scouting etc?
On August 24 2012 00:41 LuckyFool wrote: I really feel like blizzard should leave small stuff like this. It only helps raise the skill level of the game imo. Little stuff like this is what helped make bw so great.
Nah... It would only force you to pointless mechanical grinding. Sure as hell it wouldn't make game better to play. Maybe from spectator point of view it can be something (look how he micro his probes to boost eco!!!) but from player perspective it is abolutely horrible.
It is SC2 not BW, if BW is so great you can still play it.
This is just so wrong in so many ways...
Stuff like that is exactly what SCII needs badly.
Care to elaborate?
And no, SC2 doesn't need those things, it needs more units for Z and P that benefit from good micro (like a marines). To deliberately make primitive UI and buggy mechanics is the worst possible way to balance game. And why is that? Because then game might be good to watching but sure as hell is not funny to play (to prove my point: outside of Korea BW wasn't wildly popular, nor gathered huge audience - on the contrary SC2 is a huge success on international scene).
P.S. When I scan BW forum I still read posts that BW is such a wonderful game, but funnily enough there is also a lot of post where people ranting that there aren't many people to play.
I'll go ahead and edit this post to clarify my point.
To deliberately make primitive UI and buggy mechanics is the worst possible way to balance game. And why is that? Because then game might be good to watching but sure as hell is not funny to play (to prove my point: outside of Korea BW wasn't wildly popular, nor gathered huge audience - on the contrary SC2 is a huge success on international scene).
You seem to be suggesting that BW wasn't wildly popular outside of Korea and failed to gain traction because it was not 'funny' to play (I imagine you meant fun) due in part to its primitive UI and buggy mechanics, something others have touted as requiring skill to use vs SC2 more automated functions. You then appear to proffer the success of SC2 as a demonstration to the contrary.
My post was in response to that claim. It's dubious to suggest that SC2's popularity rests largely on its accessibility and improved UI and less APM intensive mechanics when many other factors are involved. Namely as I went to to say, the original SC cemented Blizzard's reputation as fastidious developer. SC2 was released after the organic growth of a community around the game and after Blizzard has exploded worldwide as a recognized publisher through its subsequent and popular releases, namely, WoW, War3, D2. On those factors alone, SC2 would be a much larger and widely known game than SC original could have ever aspired to. That in itself doesn't demonstrate on its own that SC2 was more fun to play as per the reasons you appeared to be suggesting.
You may call me a zealot, I prefer Zerg myself but I, like a good many here, really only got into the scene because of SC2. But I don't need to be in love with SC BW to not see the reject your premise. I'll admit my original post was a bit crude. But what the hell.
And common, who are you trying to kid. A game that's 10+ years old and you're surprised that people aren't finding as many people to play with/against?
On August 24 2012 00:41 LuckyFool wrote: I really feel like blizzard should leave small stuff like this. It only helps raise the skill level of the game imo. Little stuff like this is what helped make bw so great.
Nah... It would only force you to pointless mechanical grinding. Sure as hell it wouldn't make game better to play. Maybe from spectator point of view it can be something (look how he micro his probes to boost eco!!!) but from player perspective it is abolutely horrible.
It is SC2 not BW, if BW is so great you can still play it.
This is just so wrong in so many ways...
Stuff like that is exactly what SCII needs badly.
Care to elaborate?
And no, SC2 doesn't need those things, it needs more units for Z and P that benefit from good micro (like a marines). To deliberately make primitive UI and buggy mechanics is the worst possible way to balance game. And why is that? Because then game might be good to watching but sure as hell is not funny to play (to prove my point: outside of Korea BW wasn't wildly popular, nor gathered huge audience - on the contrary SC2 is a huge success on international scene).
P.S. When I scan BW forum I still read posts that BW is such a wonderful game, but funnily enough there is also a lot of post where people ranting that there aren't many people to play.
What kind of nonsense is this? SC was released in 1998 and cemented Blizzard's reputation and ensured the attention given to its subsequent releases. The scene grew organically since then. Naturally SC2 released after games like WOW, D2, etc by the same name would be wildly more popular and vernacular. That in itself certainly holds no candle to elucidate anyone as to its quality vs BW. To simply pass on the history that has brought us here is to demonstrate to the dubiousness of your wits.
I wonder if you will get at least warning, or TL is still mild for BW insane zealots. As for now crawl back into BW forums, this is SC2 section - don't want to post with people like you.
Also not even once in my post I explicitly said BW is inferior to SC2.
Back to topic: BW outside of Korea didn't build very big scene, game was great commercial succes and one of the greatest and most innovative titles, for sure. In Korea of course it became something big and phenomenal.
And SC2 is a great game, it has nothing to do with BW heritage as of now. If game was shit tournaments wouldn't sustain audience, nor the hype for those past 2 years. Also it is worth noting that foreigner scene just exploded - it wasn't the case with BW.
Also despite new SC2, in Korea, till now, still ruled BW, so your theory how newer titles seems more attractive doesnt holds. I got one simple explanation for this fact: for foreigners SC2 got more appeal. It has nothing to do which one of the games is better, because it is subjective matter. It is just the way it is. I guess it has to do with SC2 having good match making system, better graphics and easier and better UI, overall being just great game.
I really hope this gets patched. I don´t want to get back to brood war, where the skill was all about the mechanics. This differs the high skilled people from the very high skilled people? If skill is what you define as who can click the fastest...the game should not be about APM, you should focus on the other things.
On September 10 2012 22:38 GiantRobot wrote: I really hope this gets patched. I don´t want to get back to brood war, where the skill was all about the mechanics. This differs the high skilled people from the very high skilled people? If skill is what you define as who can click the fastest...the game should not be about APM, you should focus on the other things.
Apm is not just defined as clicking the fastest, what would you like the game to be? just a moving army towards another army? -_-. A person who has better mechanics should win against another person who is not as good.
On September 10 2012 22:38 GiantRobot wrote: I really hope this gets patched. I don´t want to get back to brood war, where the skill was all about the mechanics. This differs the high skilled people from the very high skilled people? If skill is what you define as who can click the fastest...the game should not be about APM, you should focus on the other things.
Starcraft is about mechanics, if you want strategy you can buy other games like total war for example.
On September 10 2012 22:38 GiantRobot wrote: I really hope this gets patched. I don´t want to get back to brood war, where the skill was all about the mechanics. This differs the high skilled people from the very high skilled people? If skill is what you define as who can click the fastest...the game should not be about APM, you should focus on the other things.
Starcraft is about mechanics, if you want strategy you can buy other games like total war for example.
lol, no. Sc was about mechanics, sc2 is not. And your idea is kinda hilarious, rephrasing: sc2 is a strategy game, but if you want strategy buy other games"
On September 10 2012 22:38 GiantRobot wrote: I really hope this gets patched. I don´t want to get back to brood war, where the skill was all about the mechanics. This differs the high skilled people from the very high skilled people? If skill is what you define as who can click the fastest...the game should not be about APM, you should focus on the other things.
Starcraft is about mechanics, if you want strategy you can buy other games like total war for example.
lol, no. Sc was about mechanics, sc2 is not. And your idea is kinda hilarious, rephrasing: sc2 is a strategy game, but if you want strategy buy other games"
^This. Keeping this in the game wouldn't be a bad thing per se, but it would not be keeping with Blizzard's theme of cutting down the attention required for menial bullshit like hand-rallying every probe, so that people can focus more on what build they're using and army management. This game has become more about decision making than your ability to do some menial task faster than the other guy, and I don't see why Blizzard would leave in something that conflicts with that.
On August 24 2012 05:05 NEEDZMOAR wrote: as someone earlier stated, keeping this mineral patch boost is stupid because a: it's useless in terms of making the game more enjoyable and b: with the logic people are defending it with, one might as well create something like "at 11:25 if you type pronfbdsbuiohaiuhsadölksa22222222a b cWORLDOFWARCRAFTWRATHOFTHELICHKINGXD you will gain 10 more drones"
It's nothing serious, it's stupid and doesnt in any way improve the joy of the game.
this. ppl are stupid and do not realize why BW was popular. BW was popular because of good unit design. Not because of no MBS or other stupid mechanics.
are ppl seriosly afraid since they have such shit apm about this thing? work up guys, everyone should aim to do this to 2 workers AT LEAST, dont be pussies and say this game aint about mechanics
On September 10 2012 23:24 X3GoldDot wrote: are ppl seriosly afraid since they have such shit apm about this thing? work up guys, everyone should aim to do this to 2 workers AT LEAST, dont be pussies and say this game aint about mechanics
its just not worth it. 2 workers for how long? 60 seconds? That is around 90 minerals mined with no boosting and around 94 with boosting.
On September 10 2012 23:24 X3GoldDot wrote: are ppl seriosly afraid since they have such shit apm about this thing? work up guys, everyone should aim to do this to 2 workers AT LEAST, dont be pussies and say this game aint about mechanics
its just not worth it. 2 workers for how long? 60 seconds? That is around 90 minerals mined with no boosting and around 94 with boosting.
Might want to re-think your math there. If each of them make one additional trip it's 10 minerals.
On September 10 2012 23:24 X3GoldDot wrote: are ppl seriosly afraid since they have such shit apm about this thing? work up guys, everyone should aim to do this to 2 workers AT LEAST, dont be pussies and say this game aint about mechanics
its just not worth it. 2 workers for how long? 60 seconds? That is around 90 minerals mined with no boosting and around 94 with boosting.
Might want to re-think your math there. If each of them make one additional trip it's 10 minerals.
my math is all right, it's the effectiveness of boosting that is in question. I stand by 4-5%, you assume about 11%
On August 24 2012 00:41 LuckyFool wrote: I really feel like blizzard should leave small stuff like this. It only helps raise the skill level of the game imo. Little stuff like this is what helped make bw so great.
Nah... It would only force you to pointless mechanical grinding. Sure as hell it wouldn't make game better to play. Maybe from spectator point of view it can be something (look how he micro his probes to boost eco!!!) but from player perspective it is abolutely horrible.
It is SC2 not BW, if BW is so great you can still play it.
This is just so wrong in so many ways...
Stuff like that is exactly what SCII needs badly.
Care to elaborate?
And no, SC2 doesn't need those things, it needs more units for Z and P that benefit from good micro (like a marines). To deliberately make primitive UI and buggy mechanics is the worst possible way to balance game. And why is that? Because then game might be good to watching but sure as hell is not funny to play (to prove my point: outside of Korea BW wasn't wildly popular, nor gathered huge audience - on the contrary SC2 is a huge success on international scene).
P.S. When I scan BW forum I still read posts that BW is such a wonderful game, but funnily enough there is also a lot of post where people ranting that there aren't many people to play.
What kind of nonsense is this? SC was released in 1998 and cemented Blizzard's reputation and ensured the attention given to its subsequent releases. The scene grew organically since then. Naturally SC2 released after games like WOW, D2, etc by the same name would be wildly more popular and vernacular. That in itself certainly holds no candle to elucidate anyone as to its quality vs BW. To simply pass on the history that has brought us here is to demonstrate to the dubiousness of your wits.
I wonder if you will get at least warning, or TL is still mild for BW insane zealots. As for now crawl back into BW forums, this is SC2 section - don't want to post with people like you.
Also not even once in my post I explicitly said BW is inferior to SC2.
Back to topic: BW outside of Korea didn't build very big scene, game was great commercial succes and one of the greatest and most innovative titles, for sure. In Korea of course it became something big and phenomenal.
And SC2 is a great game, it has nothing to do with BW heritage as of now. If game was shit tournaments wouldn't sustain audience, nor the hype for those past 2 years. Also it is worth noting that foreigner scene just exploded - it wasn't the case with BW.
Also despite new SC2, in Korea, till now, still ruled BW, so your theory how newer titles seems more attractive doesnt holds. I got one simple explanation for this fact: for foreigners SC2 got more appeal. It has nothing to do which one of the games is better, because it is subjective matter. It is just the way it is. I guess it has to do with SC2 having good match making system, better graphics and easier and better UI, overall being just great game.
1) kind of stupid to come to a starcraft site and bash broodwar and not expect resistance
2) don't play innocent. you implied that sc:bw was a bad game when you said "P.S. When I scan BW forum I still read posts that BW is such a wonderful game, but funnily enough there is also a lot of post where people ranting that there aren't many people to play."
Edit: lol, I didn't even see that his post was from weeks ago >.<
On August 24 2012 05:17 Incomplet wrote: Wolf has been pointing out a few Koreans already doing this trick in the WCS.
flash does it! : D
I'm curious to know if they are doing this because they aren't mineral stacking? I've been doing this a lot at high masters but I find that mineral stacking will get me a 13 gate with constant chronoboost (assuming 9 pylon is placed on time) but just doing this particular mineral trick won't. I end up stacking as normal, but for about a minute in the beginning I will do this trick occasionally.
I wouldnt want to micro manage this. But for the first worker, I might rally the the base infront of the mineral, then shift click it. So their first trip is faster
I know nobody is posting here anymore but i really like this trick. It seems like no one has done the maths and calculated how much it is, maybe its marginal. if you just watch the scvs, you can see its faster. even if its not really relevant, it makes the first two minutes less boring and it feels smoother because i have have a little more time to queue things up so it reduces the risk of not building anything for a moment.
but the main reason i like it, it improves my ability to directly click on moving units to select them. I often struggle in big fights under a lot of pressure to do so. For example if i have mmm against banelings and i want to let the marauder tank the damage and kite with my marines.Or when i try to focus banelings with tanks. This way you can exercise your micro without risking much.
that alone would be reason enough for me to do this trick in the first 2 minutes.
Like Spike said, its only worth doing at the most 2mins. Its very tedious and requires a lot of attention. But for that first 2 mins it would really help out a lot. I'll give it a try in my games! :D
EPT
Please?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/y5lLV.jpg)
