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On August 09 2012 06:46 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 06:33 Assirra wrote:On August 09 2012 06:29 zmansman17 wrote:
International Terran is still so bad.
As for Korea, I think if you don't have Gumiho or Taeja TvZ is still below what it should be considering all of the other best players in the world who play Terran and only boast >50% TvZ win rates. How about we removing every terran win this month. OMG ZERG 100% winrate, imbalance! You can't just remove stats to fit your need. Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:04 canikizu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:18 lichter wrote:On August 09 2012 00:13 canikizu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:00 Pazuzu wrote:On August 08 2012 23:55 canikizu wrote:On August 08 2012 23:45 ELA wrote:KR TvZ winrate explained: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HNrRa.jpg) July games v. Z: 10 wins, 1 loss (90.91% winrate) You forgot Gumiho vs Zerg 12-3 (80% winrate) These two alone skew the Terran winrate like 10% or something. 2 players out of how many in korea? skew a winrate 10%? sorry but the math nowhere near checks out there're 321 Korean games, so essentially 3 games ~ 1% if Taeja and Gumiho only won half of their game (Taeja lose 4 more, Gumiho lose 4 more), that were ~ 3% more for Zerg and 3% less for Terran, and ZvT in Korea would be 53%-47%. Oh hey, that's not nice anymore. You can't pick stats like this, because it becomes meaningless. If you suggest that, then what about removing the two Zergs with the best ZvT as well? And then the cycle continues. Really bad terrans or really bad zergs skewing the numbers. Meaningless arguments because removing all outliers will leave you with the median or mean, more or less. Back to square one. Yes you can pick stats like that. That's the very basic fundamental when you look at chart and statistic. If you trade stock and stuff, and you don't know the source of why the that stock is flying so high, you will get perceived and get burn. The reasons Taeja and Gumiho are counted as outliners because they contributed a significant number of games in TvZ, and have siginicant higher win rate than other Terran. Now compared to Zerg players, we have Leenock, Curious, Symbol (100% winrate), Horror (80%), Shine, Life, Sniper, Losira, DRG, Hyun (60%-70%). There are too many players that have good winrate against Terran, and most of them didn't contribue significant number of games to count as outliners. Among the Zerg there're only 2 players that contribute good number of games vT, such as Coca (14-5 73% winrate), and Nestea (4-9, 30%). But comparing between Coca's winnrate and others, he doesn't have any significant winrate that can be counted as outliner. On the other hand, Nestea can be counted as outliner because his winrrate was significantly lower than the rest of the Zerg. But that just proved that if you took Nestea out, ZvT winrate should even be higher.
So it's ok to remove Taeja and Gumiho but not coca because his win-rate is not different enough from other zergs?
You do realize that there are other Terran who do very well right? Mkp went 8-3 in july, hack 8-4, mma 6-1, heart 7-2,polt, reality,etc
And you don't get to just remove the guys who win a lot, you also have to take out those who lose a lot, in both races, every month, so for example in june, remove symbol,etc.
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On August 08 2012 23:27 SKiller wrote:
International TLPD looks so bad!
that`s cause we`re noobs.
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Pretty nice stats 
Cool how close the percentages always are to 50
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People were complaining last month because of a small sample size but now that it's 3 times the size you would think people wouldn't compain... Anyway looks good.
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55.7% international winrate for zerg in TVZ is not close to 50.
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hopefully this will tone down the terran bitching for a while.
on the other hand, zvp T_T
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France12904 Posts
On August 09 2012 07:51 derpinator wrote:
55.7% international winrate for zerg in TVZ is not close to 50.
The funny thing is that it includes the 50% TvZ winrate from korea.
Poor foreign terrans  .
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On August 09 2012 07:21 Diavlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 06:46 canikizu wrote:On August 09 2012 06:33 Assirra wrote:On August 09 2012 06:29 zmansman17 wrote:
International Terran is still so bad.
As for Korea, I think if you don't have Gumiho or Taeja TvZ is still below what it should be considering all of the other best players in the world who play Terran and only boast >50% TvZ win rates. How about we removing every terran win this month. OMG ZERG 100% winrate, imbalance! You can't just remove stats to fit your need. On August 09 2012 01:04 canikizu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:18 lichter wrote:On August 09 2012 00:13 canikizu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:00 Pazuzu wrote:On August 08 2012 23:55 canikizu wrote:On August 08 2012 23:45 ELA wrote:KR TvZ winrate explained: July games v. Z: 10 wins, 1 loss (90.91% winrate) You forgot Gumiho vs Zerg 12-3 (80% winrate) These two alone skew the Terran winrate like 10% or something. 2 players out of how many in korea? skew a winrate 10%? sorry but the math nowhere near checks out there're 321 Korean games, so essentially 3 games ~ 1% if Taeja and Gumiho only won half of their game (Taeja lose 4 more, Gumiho lose 4 more), that were ~ 3% more for Zerg and 3% less for Terran, and ZvT in Korea would be 53%-47%. Oh hey, that's not nice anymore. You can't pick stats like this, because it becomes meaningless. If you suggest that, then what about removing the two Zergs with the best ZvT as well? And then the cycle continues. Really bad terrans or really bad zergs skewing the numbers. Meaningless arguments because removing all outliers will leave you with the median or mean, more or less. Back to square one. Yes you can pick stats like that. That's the very basic fundamental when you look at chart and statistic. If you trade stock and stuff, and you don't know the source of why the that stock is flying so high, you will get perceived and get burn. The reasons Taeja and Gumiho are counted as outliners because they contributed a significant number of games in TvZ, and have siginicant higher win rate than other Terran. Now compared to Zerg players, we have Leenock, Curious, Symbol (100% winrate), Horror (80%), Shine, Life, Sniper, Losira, DRG, Hyun (60%-70%). There are too many players that have good winrate against Terran, and most of them didn't contribue significant number of games to count as outliners. Among the Zerg there're only 2 players that contribute good number of games vT, such as Coca (14-5 73% winrate), and Nestea (4-9, 30%). But comparing between Coca's winnrate and others, he doesn't have any significant winrate that can be counted as outliner. On the other hand, Nestea can be counted as outliner because his winrrate was significantly lower than the rest of the Zerg. But that just proved that if you took Nestea out, ZvT winrate should even be higher. So it's ok to remove Taeja and Gumiho but not coca because his win-rate is not different enough from other zergs? You do realize that there are other Terran who do very well right? Mkp went 8-3 in july, hack 8-4, mma 6-1, heart 7-2,polt, reality,etc And you don't get to just remove the guys who win a lot, you also have to take out those who lose a lot, in both races, every month, so for example in june, remove symbol,etc.
Not sure if serious...
In Korean TLPD July TvZ, MKP was 4-1, MMA 2-5, Hack 6-6, Heart 6-5, Reality 1-0 (yes qualifier games doesn't count as usual, so his win against Symbol and Shine are not counted)...
And to qualify as outliners, you have to have:
+ A good number of games
+ A significant win/lose rate than the rest.
People like Hack and Heart had good number of games, but their winrate isn't much different with the rest of the Terran, so...
Same with Coca, he had 73% winrate, but it's not that impressive compared to the rest, you had a bunch of Zerg that had winrate hover around 100%-60% too. Coca is just kind of medium...
And in June, Symbol ZvT was 65% winrate or something, not that impressive... Remember that although people like Symbol win bo3 series a lot, but if you win 2-1 all the time, your winrate will always hover around 66%.
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On August 09 2012 07:56 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 07:51 derpinator wrote:
55.7% international winrate for zerg in TVZ is not close to 50. The funny thing is that it includes the 50% TvZ winrate from korea. Poor foreign terrans .
Yea this game favors zerg in ZVT slightly only if the terran practice his game 12 hours a day. All the other terrans have to listen to zerg players say l2p and calling them noobs while they get annihilated in lategame because they dont have 300+ APM. Just think how succesfull the top terrans would be if they switched race.
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On August 09 2012 08:04 derpinator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 07:56 Poopi wrote:On August 09 2012 07:51 derpinator wrote:
55.7% international winrate for zerg in TVZ is not close to 50. The funny thing is that it includes the 50% TvZ winrate from korea. Poor foreign terrans . Yea this game favors zerg in ZVT slightly only if the terran practice his game 12 hours a day. All the other terrans have to listen to zerg players say l2p and calling them noobs while they get annihilated in lategame because they dont have 300+ APM. Just think how succesfull the top terrans would be if they switched race.
Do you think the top zergs play less hours? If you are a top korean, then the game is balanced for you, therefore a racee switch wouldn't help the top korean terrans.
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On August 09 2012 04:29 FabledIntegral wrote:
How is ease to play relevant in the scenario at the top? Just because a race is easier to play does not make it inherently stronger.
For example, although we all know APM isn't a direct correlation to skill/performance, let's say it was and by some ungodly scenario it could be with objective numbers.
Say Terran benefits most from APM increases. A Terran with 150 APM might have a skill/performance of "75". A Terran with 250 APM might have a skill/performance of 90, and a Terran with 350 APM might have a skill/performance of 95.
At the same time, a Zerg with 150 APM might be able to perform at a skill level of 85. A Zerg with 250 APM might be able to perform at a skill/performance of 93, and a Zerg with 350 APM might have a skill/performance of 95.
Assuming there is no benefit to going beyond 350 APM (for simplicity's sake), we could say that TvZ is balanced at the highest level, yet anywhere below the highest level Zerg is going to perform much better than Terran. It's easier to play at a lower level. This does NOT affect the top tier you mentioned, such as Nestea, DRG, etc. It only affects those below. Zerg at the very top might be just as hard to play as Terran, it's just that it's a lot easier to get "near" the top with Zerg and much less skill than with Terran.
Hopefully that made sense, no time to edit since my lunch break just ended.
This guy gets it.
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On August 09 2012 08:04 derpinator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 07:56 Poopi wrote:On August 09 2012 07:51 derpinator wrote:
55.7% international winrate for zerg in TVZ is not close to 50. The funny thing is that it includes the 50% TvZ winrate from korea. Poor foreign terrans . Yea this game favors zerg in ZVT slightly only if the terran practice his game 12 hours a day. All the other terrans have to listen to zerg players say l2p and calling them noobs while they get annihilated in lategame because they dont have 300+ APM. Just think how succesfull the top terrans would be if they switched race.
Well, terrans are the best players in the world, after all. They are drawn to the race with the highest potential and difficulty. It a huge problem for balancing the game, since the terran win rates have always been inflated by these juggernauts of talent. It is only natural that the race has now been over nerfed because Blizzard has mistaken this raw skill for an imbalance in the game. Hopefully they will figure it out soon and revert some of the most recent nerfs.
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On August 09 2012 07:57 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 07:21 Diavlo wrote:On August 09 2012 06:46 canikizu wrote:On August 09 2012 06:33 Assirra wrote:On August 09 2012 06:29 zmansman17 wrote:
International Terran is still so bad.
As for Korea, I think if you don't have Gumiho or Taeja TvZ is still below what it should be considering all of the other best players in the world who play Terran and only boast >50% TvZ win rates. How about we removing every terran win this month. OMG ZERG 100% winrate, imbalance! You can't just remove stats to fit your need. On August 09 2012 01:04 canikizu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:18 lichter wrote:On August 09 2012 00:13 canikizu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:00 Pazuzu wrote:On August 08 2012 23:55 canikizu wrote:On August 08 2012 23:45 ELA wrote:KR TvZ winrate explained: July games v. Z: 10 wins, 1 loss (90.91% winrate) You forgot Gumiho vs Zerg 12-3 (80% winrate) These two alone skew the Terran winrate like 10% or something. 2 players out of how many in korea? skew a winrate 10%? sorry but the math nowhere near checks out there're 321 Korean games, so essentially 3 games ~ 1% if Taeja and Gumiho only won half of their game (Taeja lose 4 more, Gumiho lose 4 more), that were ~ 3% more for Zerg and 3% less for Terran, and ZvT in Korea would be 53%-47%. Oh hey, that's not nice anymore. You can't pick stats like this, because it becomes meaningless. If you suggest that, then what about removing the two Zergs with the best ZvT as well? And then the cycle continues. Really bad terrans or really bad zergs skewing the numbers. Meaningless arguments because removing all outliers will leave you with the median or mean, more or less. Back to square one. Yes you can pick stats like that. That's the very basic fundamental when you look at chart and statistic. If you trade stock and stuff, and you don't know the source of why the that stock is flying so high, you will get perceived and get burn. The reasons Taeja and Gumiho are counted as outliners because they contributed a significant number of games in TvZ, and have siginicant higher win rate than other Terran. Now compared to Zerg players, we have Leenock, Curious, Symbol (100% winrate), Horror (80%), Shine, Life, Sniper, Losira, DRG, Hyun (60%-70%). There are too many players that have good winrate against Terran, and most of them didn't contribue significant number of games to count as outliners. Among the Zerg there're only 2 players that contribute good number of games vT, such as Coca (14-5 73% winrate), and Nestea (4-9, 30%). But comparing between Coca's winnrate and others, he doesn't have any significant winrate that can be counted as outliner. On the other hand, Nestea can be counted as outliner because his winrrate was significantly lower than the rest of the Zerg. But that just proved that if you took Nestea out, ZvT winrate should even be higher. So it's ok to remove Taeja and Gumiho but not coca because his win-rate is not different enough from other zergs? You do realize that there are other Terran who do very well right? Mkp went 8-3 in july, hack 8-4, mma 6-1, heart 7-2,polt, reality,etc And you don't get to just remove the guys who win a lot, you also have to take out those who lose a lot, in both races, every month, so for example in june, remove symbol,etc. Not sure if serious... In Korean TLPD July TvZ, MKP was 4-1, MMA 2-5, Hack 6-6, Heart 6-5, Reality 1-0 (yes qualifier games doesn't count as usual, so his win against Symbol and Shine are not counted)... And to qualify as outliners, you have to have: + A good number of games + A significant win/lose rate than the rest. People like Hack and Heart had good number of games, but their winrate isn't much different with the rest of the Terran, so... Same with Coca, he had 73% winrate, but it's not that impressive compared to the rest, you had a bunch of Zerg that had winrate hover around 100%-60% too. Coca is just kind of medium... And in June, Symbol ZvT was 65% winrate or something, not that impressive... Remember that although people like Symbol win bo3 series a lot, but if you win 2-1 all the time, your winrate will always hover around 66%.
Wait those charts don't take into account the wcs and wcg qualifiers?
How the fuck did they get those winrates for terran?
My bad, you can do your magic with removing players,etc but please add to that the fact that in wcg and wcs qualifiers, terran went 58-41 in Bo3 series and 134-109 in maps so a 55% winrate on 243 games.
So in the end, if you added those results to the TLPD ones you would get a 52,3 winrate for terran on 564 games.
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Fun fact: If you take out TaeJa and Gumiho from the KR statistics the TvZ win-rate drops to 47,1%.
Haha, that is golden. 
And apparently, Blizzard is already addressing the down slope for Terran with that new balance-testing map.
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On August 09 2012 08:54 Proseat wrote:Show nested quote +Fun fact: If you take out TaeJa and Gumiho from the KR statistics the TvZ win-rate drops to 47,1%. Haha, that is golden. And apparently, Blizzard is already addressing the down slope for Terran with that new balance-testing map.
He should have worked out what happens if you take out the two top ZvT players for the month.
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On August 09 2012 07:51 derpinator wrote:
55.7% international winrate for zerg in TVZ is not close to 50.
International. Key word.
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On August 09 2012 08:57 Lonyo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 08:54 Proseat wrote:Fun fact: If you take out TaeJa and Gumiho from the KR statistics the TvZ win-rate drops to 47,1%. Haha, that is golden. And apparently, Blizzard is already addressing the down slope for Terran with that new balance-testing map. He should have worked out what happens if you take out the two top ZvT players for the month.
ikr?
This OP is clearly biased -_-
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On August 09 2012 09:06 NOOBALOPSE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 07:51 derpinator wrote:
55.7% international winrate for zerg in TVZ is not close to 50. International. Key word.
doesn't that include international tournaments, where koreans frequently attend?
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On August 09 2012 08:49 Diavlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 07:57 canikizu wrote:On August 09 2012 07:21 Diavlo wrote:On August 09 2012 06:46 canikizu wrote:On August 09 2012 06:33 Assirra wrote:On August 09 2012 06:29 zmansman17 wrote:
International Terran is still so bad.
As for Korea, I think if you don't have Gumiho or Taeja TvZ is still below what it should be considering all of the other best players in the world who play Terran and only boast >50% TvZ win rates. How about we removing every terran win this month. OMG ZERG 100% winrate, imbalance! You can't just remove stats to fit your need. On August 09 2012 01:04 canikizu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:18 lichter wrote:On August 09 2012 00:13 canikizu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:00 Pazuzu wrote:On August 08 2012 23:55 canikizu wrote:On August 08 2012 23:45 ELA wrote:KR TvZ winrate explained: July games v. Z: 10 wins, 1 loss (90.91% winrate) You forgot Gumiho vs Zerg 12-3 (80% winrate) These two alone skew the Terran winrate like 10% or something. 2 players out of how many in korea? skew a winrate 10%? sorry but the math nowhere near checks out there're 321 Korean games, so essentially 3 games ~ 1% if Taeja and Gumiho only won half of their game (Taeja lose 4 more, Gumiho lose 4 more), that were ~ 3% more for Zerg and 3% less for Terran, and ZvT in Korea would be 53%-47%. Oh hey, that's not nice anymore. You can't pick stats like this, because it becomes meaningless. If you suggest that, then what about removing the two Zergs with the best ZvT as well? And then the cycle continues. Really bad terrans or really bad zergs skewing the numbers. Meaningless arguments because removing all outliers will leave you with the median or mean, more or less. Back to square one. Yes you can pick stats like that. That's the very basic fundamental when you look at chart and statistic. If you trade stock and stuff, and you don't know the source of why the that stock is flying so high, you will get perceived and get burn. The reasons Taeja and Gumiho are counted as outliners because they contributed a significant number of games in TvZ, and have siginicant higher win rate than other Terran. Now compared to Zerg players, we have Leenock, Curious, Symbol (100% winrate), Horror (80%), Shine, Life, Sniper, Losira, DRG, Hyun (60%-70%). There are too many players that have good winrate against Terran, and most of them didn't contribue significant number of games to count as outliners. Among the Zerg there're only 2 players that contribute good number of games vT, such as Coca (14-5 73% winrate), and Nestea (4-9, 30%). But comparing between Coca's winnrate and others, he doesn't have any significant winrate that can be counted as outliner. On the other hand, Nestea can be counted as outliner because his winrrate was significantly lower than the rest of the Zerg. But that just proved that if you took Nestea out, ZvT winrate should even be higher. So it's ok to remove Taeja and Gumiho but not coca because his win-rate is not different enough from other zergs? You do realize that there are other Terran who do very well right? Mkp went 8-3 in july, hack 8-4, mma 6-1, heart 7-2,polt, reality,etc And you don't get to just remove the guys who win a lot, you also have to take out those who lose a lot, in both races, every month, so for example in june, remove symbol,etc. Not sure if serious... In Korean TLPD July TvZ, MKP was 4-1, MMA 2-5, Hack 6-6, Heart 6-5, Reality 1-0 (yes qualifier games doesn't count as usual, so his win against Symbol and Shine are not counted)... And to qualify as outliners, you have to have: + A good number of games + A significant win/lose rate than the rest. People like Hack and Heart had good number of games, but their winrate isn't much different with the rest of the Terran, so... Same with Coca, he had 73% winrate, but it's not that impressive compared to the rest, you had a bunch of Zerg that had winrate hover around 100%-60% too. Coca is just kind of medium... And in June, Symbol ZvT was 65% winrate or something, not that impressive... Remember that although people like Symbol win bo3 series a lot, but if you win 2-1 all the time, your winrate will always hover around 66%. Wait those charts don't take into account the wcs and wcg qualifiers? How the fuck did they get those winrates for terran? My bad, you can do your magic with removing players,etc but please add to that the fact that in wcg and wcs qualifiers, terran went 58-41 in Bo3 series and 134-109 in maps so a 55% winrate on 243 games. So in the end, if you added those results to the TLPD ones you would get a 52,3 winrate for terran on 564 games.
It's been discussed to death last month already. Remember last month, Terran said why TSL qualifiers didn't count in May, June winrate? because if it were counted, Terran winrate would be more horrible.
It's been like this forever. Qualifiers and Open Bracket don't make it to TLPD because they consist a ton of games from teamless people and people with huge different in skills(pro Korean vs NA mid diamond), no matter if it's TSL4, MLG, IPL, Playhem, ESV..v..v.v. WCS and WCG are not exceptions.
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On August 09 2012 08:11 xPabt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 04:29 FabledIntegral wrote:
How is ease to play relevant in the scenario at the top? Just because a race is easier to play does not make it inherently stronger.
For example, although we all know APM isn't a direct correlation to skill/performance, let's say it was and by some ungodly scenario it could be with objective numbers.
Say Terran benefits most from APM increases. A Terran with 150 APM might have a skill/performance of "75". A Terran with 250 APM might have a skill/performance of 90, and a Terran with 350 APM might have a skill/performance of 95.
At the same time, a Zerg with 150 APM might be able to perform at a skill level of 85. A Zerg with 250 APM might be able to perform at a skill/performance of 93, and a Zerg with 350 APM might have a skill/performance of 95.
Assuming there is no benefit to going beyond 350 APM (for simplicity's sake), we could say that TvZ is balanced at the highest level, yet anywhere below the highest level Zerg is going to perform much better than Terran. It's easier to play at a lower level. This does NOT affect the top tier you mentioned, such as Nestea, DRG, etc. It only affects those below. Zerg at the very top might be just as hard to play as Terran, it's just that it's a lot easier to get "near" the top with Zerg and much less skill than with Terran.
Hopefully that made sense, no time to edit since my lunch break just ended. This guy gets it.
This!!! been saying that for ages...
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EPT
