Whoa pretty danm balanced... because i heard that terran was struggling, but it turns out its dead even with zerg basically. Thanks for this grapefruit!
EDIT:i speak of the korean ladder, as they are ahead of the meta game on average.
I usually look more heavily at Korea, but when you consider taht there was less than 50 games total in Korea this month, and that there were basically no Terrans that were playing in GSL this month, it's kind of hard to take this results in Korea seriously. They're starting to figure it out, but Zerg is still pretty heavily favored I feel.
On August 08 2012 23:28 DoeniDon wrote: Don't look bad at all!
If you listened to all the complaining lately, you'd think Zerg is at about 90% ...
If you see all those terran nerfs and zerg buffs, you would think that terrans would start to do worse. But no, our top korean terrans can be nerfed as hard as you want, they will keep dominating. I hope that one day people realise that some korean terrans are just gods.
On the other hand there are the high master / grandmaster terrans in EU and NA that suffer hard from those terran nerfs, because most of them don't have the time to practice 10 hours a day.
On August 08 2012 23:27 iiGreetings wrote: Whoa pretty danm balanced... because i heard that terran was struggling, but it turns out its dead even with zerg basically. Thanks for this grapefruit!
EDIT:i speak of the korean ladder, as they are ahead of the meta game on average.
Unfortunately their metagame is to cheese or 1-base all in most of the time. The international terran win rate shows you what happens if you go beyond the early game :/
On August 08 2012 23:27 iiGreetings wrote: Whoa pretty danm balanced... because i heard that terran was struggling, but it turns out its dead even with zerg basically. Thanks for this grapefruit!
EDIT:i speak of the korean ladder, as they are ahead of the meta game on average.
Unfortunately their metagame is to cheese or 1-base all in most of the time. The international terran win rate shows you what happens if you go beyond the early game :/
don't spread bullshit. The meta is to get a fast 3rd into a 2-2 timing before hive tech.
On August 08 2012 23:27 iiGreetings wrote: Whoa pretty danm balanced... because i heard that terran was struggling, but it turns out its dead even with zerg basically. Thanks for this grapefruit!
EDIT:i speak of the korean ladder, as they are ahead of the meta game on average.
Unfortunately their metagame is to cheese or 1-base all in most of the time. The international terran win rate shows you what happens if you go beyond the early game :/
don't spread bullshit. The meta is to get a fast 3rd into a 2-2 timing before hive tech.
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
On August 08 2012 23:27 iiGreetings wrote: Whoa pretty danm balanced... because i heard that terran was struggling, but it turns out its dead even with zerg basically. Thanks for this grapefruit!
EDIT:i speak of the korean ladder, as they are ahead of the meta game on average.
Unfortunately their metagame is to cheese or 1-base all in most of the time. The international terran win rate shows you what happens if you go beyond the early game :/
don't spread bullshit. The meta is to get a fast 3rd into a 2-2 timing before hive tech.
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
On August 08 2012 23:28 DoeniDon wrote: Don't look bad at all!
If you listened to all the complaining lately, you'd think Zerg is at about 90% ...
If you see all those terran nerfs and zerg buffs, you would think that terrans would start to do worse. But no, our top korean terrans can be nerfed as hard as you want, they will keep dominating. I hope that one day people realise that some korean terrans are just gods.
On the other hand there are the high master / grandmaster terrans in EU and NA that suffer hard from those terran nerfs, because most of them don't have the time to practice 10 hours a day.
They lose because they aren't good and don't have the time to improve? Shocking imo.
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
plan to switch? it seems pointless to play T as a competitive foreigner.
His TvZ is actually pretty good comparatively, if people haven't switched by now there's really no reason to do so. At least until HotS is out.
yeah i know but when TvZ is hard and you struggle in TvP... I wonder why there where like 0 switch in foreigner scene as soon as you realized that T was harder. ThorZaiN ie would be a wonderful P with his spoon style which no longer works as a T...
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Is he korean? Are we korean? Are all the foreign terrans korean? Ever thought about the possibility that those korean terrans are just sick good, and it doesn't matter how good their race is?
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Is he korean? Are we korean? Are all the foreign terrans korean? Ever thought about the possibility that those korean terrans are just sick good, and it doesn't matter how good their race is?
yes all the best players play terran, that argument is just amazing
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Is he korean? Are we korean? Are all the foreign terrans korean? Ever thought about the possibility that those korean terrans are just sick good, and it doesn't matter how good their race is?
yes all the best players play terran, that argument is just amazing
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
and ppl wonder why pro don't come on these forums...
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Is he korean? Are we korean? Are all the foreign terrans korean? Ever thought about the possibility that those korean terrans are just sick good, and it doesn't matter how good their race is?
yes all the best players play terran, that argument is just amazing
No, the korean terrans that are doing so well are beats. Lets do the math for you: Terran nerfs + Zerg buffs = Zergs should do better, terrans should do worse.
But guess what happens? The Korean terrans just don't give a fuck and still win. Why is that?
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
No, there's literally < 50 games in Korea for this month, and probably 15 of those at most were TvZ.
Where do you take this from? It clearly says 871 games of which 321 were ZvTs.
Exactly, and to further Grapefruits point, there are 804 international TvZ which means that Korea accounts for more than a third of that international statistic. International TvZ really is horrible.
On August 08 2012 23:36 ELA wrote: Note that TaeJa is carrying the Korean Terran TLPD :D
Actually his wins are more relevant in the international graph. Other Terran have done very well in Korea these past few weeks.
And it's only getting started, the only Korean results we have in Korea this month are wcg qualifier with a wonderful 70,6% winrate for terran and wcs qualifier with still no win for zergs.
Korean tvz is actually worse for T. Taeja is actually just carrying the race LOL. Things are looking pretty bad for international tho TT. no savior there
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
I'll follow the advice of the guy above you, I'll just stop posting here cause it seems idiocy is rampant. Besides, having a perfectly balanced game at the top and below is possible, koreans will be good no matter what as long as the game balance remains the same, all Blizzard has to do is making zerg mechanics harder so it's a more challenging race to play.
On August 08 2012 23:27 iiGreetings wrote: Whoa pretty danm balanced... because i heard that terran was struggling, but it turns out its dead even with zerg basically. Thanks for this grapefruit!
EDIT:i speak of the korean ladder, as they are ahead of the meta game on average.
Unfortunately their metagame is to cheese or 1-base all in most of the time. The international terran win rate shows you what happens if you go beyond the early game :/
have you been watching different korean TvZs than the rest of us?
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Is he korean? Are we korean? Are all the foreign terrans korean? Ever thought about the possibility that those korean terrans are just sick good, and it doesn't matter how good their race is?
yes all the best players play terran, that argument is just amazing
No, the korean terrans that are doing so well are beats. Lets do the math for you: Terran nerfs + Zerg buffs = Zergs should do better, terrans should do worse.
But guess what happens? The Korean terrans just don't give a fuck and still win. Why is that?
Because the patch didn't matter as much for them as for foreigner terrans who just copied the koreans? There are a million different answers to that, but all of them are better than "terran players are just better"
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
I'll follow the advice of the guy above you, I'll just stop posting here cause it seems idiocy is rampant. Besides, having a perfectly balanced game at the top and below is possible, koreans will be good no matter what as long as the game balance remains the same, all Blizzard has to do is making zerg mechanics harder so it's a more challenging race to play.
If zerg was such an easy race then amazing players like DRG, NesTea and soon Jaedong would have won and will win every tournament. That's not the case.
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it.
On August 08 2012 23:38 aTnClouD wrote: [quote] Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
I'll follow the advice of the guy above you, I'll just stop posting here cause it seems idiocy is rampant. Besides, having a perfectly balanced game at the top and below is possible, koreans will be good no matter what as long as the game balance remains the same, all Blizzard has to do is making zerg mechanics harder so it's a more challenging race to play.
If zerg was such an easy race then amazing players like DRG, NesTea and soon Jaedong would have won and will win every tournament. That's not the case.
You are just not reading what I'm writing and responding like a retard. No point arguing from here.
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it.
On August 08 2012 23:38 aTnClouD wrote: [quote] Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
I'll follow the advice of the guy above you, I'll just stop posting here cause it seems idiocy is rampant. Besides, having a perfectly balanced game at the top and below is possible, koreans will be good no matter what as long as the game balance remains the same, all Blizzard has to do is making zerg mechanics harder so it's a more challenging race to play.
If zerg was such an easy race then amazing players like DRG, NesTea and soon Jaedong would have won and will win every tournament. That's not the case.
The fact that players like nestea are still NOT microing their units and prefer to clump up their army, says so much imo. Imagine them splitting their army LOL.
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
I'll follow the advice of the guy above you, I'll just stop posting here cause it seems idiocy is rampant. Besides, having a perfectly balanced game at the top and below is possible, koreans will be good no matter what as long as the game balance remains the same, all Blizzard has to do is making zerg mechanics harder so it's a more challenging race to play.
If zerg was such an easy race then amazing players like DRG, NesTea and soon Jaedong would have won and will win every tournament. That's not the case.
You are just not reading what I'm writing and responding like a retard. No point arguing from here.
Don't continue posting then. Just because my opinion differs from yours you don't need to go all rampant with your insults. Doesn't make your point come across any better.
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
I'll follow the advice of the guy above you, I'll just stop posting here cause it seems idiocy is rampant. Besides, having a perfectly balanced game at the top and below is possible, koreans will be good no matter what as long as the game balance remains the same, all Blizzard has to do is making zerg mechanics harder so it's a more challenging race to play.
If zerg was such an easy race then amazing players like DRG, NesTea and soon Jaedong would have won and will win every tournament. That's not the case.
The fact that players like nestea are still NOT microing their units and prefer to clump up their army, says so much imo. Imagine them splitting their army LOL.
Have you ever watched them play? Comments like these makes me think you havn't.
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it.
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it.
I have never seen you microing your units properly and horrible players like jonnyrecco win over people like naniwa. If you really think zerg players are better right now then I won't argue with you to pop the fantasy bubble you live in. Just enjoy the nonsense that's going on right now and try to win as much as you can while it lasts.
On August 08 2012 23:40 aTnClouD wrote: [quote] Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
I'll follow the advice of the guy above you, I'll just stop posting here cause it seems idiocy is rampant. Besides, having a perfectly balanced game at the top and below is possible, koreans will be good no matter what as long as the game balance remains the same, all Blizzard has to do is making zerg mechanics harder so it's a more challenging race to play.
If zerg was such an easy race then amazing players like DRG, NesTea and soon Jaedong would have won and will win every tournament. That's not the case.
The fact that players like nestea are still NOT microing their units and prefer to clump up their army, says so much imo. Imagine them splitting their army LOL.
Have you ever watched them play? Comments like these makes me think you havn't.
Yes, I did. I watched every nestea game. There are 2 things he does: macro and 1a. Sorry but there is no micro in his play.
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it.
MKP is a scrub too ?
You know his answer to this question already
yeah :D anyway i'm waiting the day a Z will be good at micro. He's going to be fucking amazing. I almost want Mvp to play Z. T.T
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it.
I have never seen you microing your units properly and horrible players like jonnyrecco win over people like naniwa. If you really think zerg players are better right now then I won't argue with you to pop the fantasy bubble you live in. Just enjoy the nonsense that's going on right now and try to win as much as you can while it lasts.
did you watch how naniwa played that series? jonnyrecco was far better than him in those games.
and if you wanna talk about a fantasy bubble, try looking at terran's win rate in.... all of starcraft2. terran players were just always the superior players right?
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it.
I have never seen you microing your units properly and horrible players like jonnyrecco win over people like naniwa. If you really think zerg players are better right now then I won't argue with you to pop the fantasy bubble you live in. Just enjoy the nonsense that's going on right now and try to win as much as you can while it lasts.
did you watch how naniwa played that series? jonnyrecco was far better than him in those games.
Jonnyrecco is just an average gm player who sits back builds his t3 army and a moves. Naniwa didn't play his best but it doesn't change the fact he is a code s protoss losing to a guy becoming good after a patch.
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it.
Suddenly players like JonnyREcco get much better. Suddenly code S terrans complain that every high master / grandmaster plays like stephano on the ladder.
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it.
MKP is a scrub too ?
You know his answer to this question already
yeah :D anyway i'm waiting the day a Z will be good at micro. He's going to be fucking amazing. I almost want Mvp to play Z. T.T
Yea i know what you mean. Every now and then a zerg player will have incredible micro dodging storms etc or splitting lings in front of tanks but i agree its not as common. It seems that positioning for zerg is much more rewarding than unit micro (in terms of pure epm at least). There were so many games in which DRG just attacked from 270degrees simultaneously with flanks and would crush through his opponent, i really hope to see more of that in the future in particular!
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it.
I have never seen you microing your units properly and horrible players like jonnyrecco win over people like naniwa. If you really think zerg players are better right now then I won't argue with you to pop the fantasy bubble you live in. Just enjoy the nonsense that's going on right now and try to win as much as you can while it lasts.
did you watch how naniwa played that series? jonnyrecco was far better than him in those games.
Jonnyrecco is just an average gm player who sits back builds his t3 army and a moves. Naniwa didn't play his best but it doesn't change the fact he is a code s protoss losing to a guy becoming good after a patch.
hes a code s protoss solely on his pvt and pvp. i dont think hes ever beaten a zerg in gsl. he does not understand the matchup at all, he plays it improperly. jonny played those games better than naniwa did.
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it.
I have never seen you microing your units properly and horrible players like jonnyrecco win over people like naniwa. If you really think zerg players are better right now then I won't argue with you to pop the fantasy bubble you live in. Just enjoy the nonsense that's going on right now and try to win as much as you can while it lasts.
did you watch how naniwa played that series? jonnyrecco was far better than him in those games.
Jonnyrecco is just an average gm player who sits back builds his t3 army and a moves. Naniwa didn't play his best but it doesn't change the fact he is a code s protoss losing to a guy becoming good after a patch.
I regret to admit that I actually agree with Idra on this one.
On August 08 2012 23:38 aTnClouD wrote: [quote] Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it.
MKP is a scrub too ?
You know his answer to this question already
yeah :D anyway i'm waiting the day a Z will be good at micro. He's going to be fucking amazing. I almost want Mvp to play Z. T.T
Yea i know what you mean. Every now and then a zerg player will have incredible micro dodging storms etc or splitting lings in front of tanks but i agree its not as common. It seems that positioning for zerg is much more rewarding than unit micro (in terms of pure epm at least). There were so many games in which DRG just attacked from 270degrees simultaneously with flanks and would crush through his opponent, i really hope to see more of that in the future in particular!
a good exemple would be infestor micro: on the T side you target them with tanks/marau, and like everyone do this since high master. Most Z at pro lvl a move their infestors into the enemy line...
On August 08 2012 23:38 aTnClouD wrote: [quote] Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it.
I have never seen you microing your units properly and horrible players like jonnyrecco win over people like naniwa. If you really think zerg players are better right now then I won't argue with you to pop the fantasy bubble you live in. Just enjoy the nonsense that's going on right now and try to win as much as you can while it lasts.
did you watch how naniwa played that series? jonnyrecco was far better than him in those games.
Jonnyrecco is just an average gm player who sits back builds his t3 army and a moves. Naniwa didn't play his best but it doesn't change the fact he is a code s protoss losing to a guy becoming good after a patch.
hes a code s protoss solely on his pvt and pvp. i dont think hes ever beaten a zerg in gsl. he does not understand the matchup at all, he plays it improperly. jonny played those games better than naniwa did.
He hasn't even beaten a zerg in GSL yet he does really well on the top of korean ladder and almost beat DRG in ro8. Yeah Naniwa must be a really bad player, right?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it.
MKP is a scrub too ?
You know his answer to this question already
yeah :D anyway i'm waiting the day a Z will be good at micro. He's going to be fucking amazing. I almost want Mvp to play Z. T.T
Yea i know what you mean. Every now and then a zerg player will have incredible micro dodging storms etc or splitting lings in front of tanks but i agree its not as common. It seems that positioning for zerg is much more rewarding than unit micro (in terms of pure epm at least). There were so many games in which DRG just attacked from 270degrees simultaneously with flanks and would crush through his opponent, i really hope to see more of that in the future in particular!
a good exemple would be infestor micro: on the T side you target them with tanks/marau, and like everyone do this since high master. Most Z at pro lvl a move their infestors into the enemy line...
didnt even think of that, yes its an even more glaringly obvious example!
On August 08 2012 23:38 aTnClouD wrote: [quote] Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it.
I have never seen you microing your units properly and horrible players like jonnyrecco win over people like naniwa. If you really think zerg players are better right now then I won't argue with you to pop the fantasy bubble you live in. Just enjoy the nonsense that's going on right now and try to win as much as you can while it lasts.
did you watch how naniwa played that series? jonnyrecco was far better than him in those games.
Jonnyrecco is just an average gm player who sits back builds his t3 army and a moves. Naniwa didn't play his best but it doesn't change the fact he is a code s protoss losing to a guy becoming good after a patch.
What does the patch have to do with PvZ..?
They get better scouting so it's much easier to defend all the timings.
On August 08 2012 23:40 aTnClouD wrote: [quote] Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
I'll follow the advice of the guy above you, I'll just stop posting here cause it seems idiocy is rampant. Besides, having a perfectly balanced game at the top and below is possible, koreans will be good no matter what as long as the game balance remains the same, all Blizzard has to do is making zerg mechanics harder so it's a more challenging race to play.
If zerg was such an easy race then amazing players like DRG, NesTea and soon Jaedong would have won and will win every tournament. That's not the case.
The fact that players like nestea are still NOT microing their units and prefer to clump up their army, says so much imo. Imagine them splitting their army LOL.
Have you ever watched them play? Comments like these makes me think you havn't.
Barely any zerg take the time to focus fire things in battle beside Immortals and Colossus. Lots of people praise Stephano because he do it consistently against sentry early game.
If I would allow myself one thing, it's saying that most pro zerg army control during battle could be improve by a good margin. I mean, half of them still headbutt Infestors so can't deny that there is work.
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
no, its that lower level players have such glaring holes in their own gameplay where balance isnt the reason theyre losing. Cheese is so successful in lower levels, because people do not know how to handle it/make poor deicisons. Cannons arent imbalanced
Foreign Terrans looking up to Korean Terrans as having some kind of unattainable god mode skill is so funny =) You never hear this about Korean Zergs / Protosses when their winrate in Korea is fine. It would be the first thing Terrans over here bring up in that case ('we only have to balance for the highest levels, you are fine in Korea stfu').....
I feel that looking at the Korean numbers as an indication of the state of balance in the game is a bad idea. The sample size is simply too small. In addition, it would only make sense if the Korean top-talents happen to be equally distributed between T, P and Z. Right now the skill-difference between the absolute top players that are in shape and the weaker Code S and Code A players is quite big. And this has a big effect on the overall winrate for the race.
Right now Taeja is beasting it up, pushing up Terran winrates. Does that say anything about the Terran race as a whole? Nope. Just that Taeja is stupidly good at the moment. A while back DRG had a similar period, where he won almost everything and really pushed Zerg winrates. That too, didn't say anything about game balance and Zergs, just that DRG was playing very well.
If the aim is to balance for the best of the best, then winrate statistics are useless. The more you restrict your data-set to top players (e.g. restricting the overall international data to Korea only), the more the influence of dominant players will become noticeable in the winrates.
Note that Blizzards aim is not just to balance for Ro8 GSL calibre players. They want to keep the foreigner scene alive as well and keep B.net filled with lower league players. It's a difficult challenge.
On August 08 2012 23:45 ELA wrote: KR TvZ winrate explained:
July games v. Z: 10 wins, 1 loss (90.91% winrate)
You forgot Gumiho vs Zerg 12-3 (80% winrate)
These two alone skew the Terran winrate like 10% or something.
2 players out of how many in korea? skew a winrate 10%? sorry but the math nowhere near checks out
Actually 20 wins out of the 2 does skew win rate by close to 10%, when total amount of game in the 300s
if the game total is 300 it skews it by roughly 6%, either way, there are always players who are on hot streaks and losing streaks over months, all part of fluctuation
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it.
Suddenly players like JonnyREcco get much better. Suddenly code S terrans complain that every high master / grandmaster plays like stephano on the ladder.
Are you one of these people that actually believes that ALL good foreign players play zerg and protoss???
I love how the fact that people suddenly winning a lot more games means that the match-up became imbalanced. You know if someone is very good but plays a weaker race, when the game is finally balanced, chances are he will start showing better results...
As for the code S terran bitching, what else is new? They did it after every patch for two years.
Game looking pretty balanced across the board. Maybe ZvT slightly Z favored. Gotta wait for the results of August to see how balanced the game actually is tho IMO.
On August 08 2012 23:45 ELA wrote: KR TvZ winrate explained:
July games v. Z: 10 wins, 1 loss (90.91% winrate)
You forgot Gumiho vs Zerg 12-3 (80% winrate)
These two alone skew the Terran winrate like 10% or something.
2 players out of how many in korea? skew a winrate 10%? sorry but the math nowhere near checks out
Actually 20 wins out of the 2 does skew win rate by close to 10%, when total amount of game in the 300s
if the game total is 300 it skews it by roughly 6%, either way, there are always players who are on hot streaks and losing streaks over months, all part of fluctuation
Bring up 2 Zergs you want to have out of the equation, then we deduct the 2 best players in the matchup from each race and get a more median win-rate.
On August 08 2012 23:38 aTnClouD wrote: [quote] Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
On August 09 2012 00:12 Grapefruit wrote: Okay, so we have 321 ZvTs in KR. 50,2% wins for Terran. That translates to 161 wins for Terran and 160 losses.
If you take away the scores from TaeJa and Gumiho that's 22 less wins and 4 less losses which would equal to 139 to 156.
So, if you just take away these two players the TvZ win-rate would drop to 47,1%.
youre correct, sorry i completely screwed up the math!
On August 08 2012 23:45 ELA wrote: KR TvZ winrate explained:
July games v. Z: 10 wins, 1 loss (90.91% winrate)
You forgot Gumiho vs Zerg 12-3 (80% winrate)
These two alone skew the Terran winrate like 10% or something.
2 players out of how many in korea? skew a winrate 10%? sorry but the math nowhere near checks out
there're 321 Korean games, so essentially 3 games ~ 1% if Taeja and Gumiho only won half of their game (Taeja lose 4 more, Gumiho lose 4 more), that were ~ 3% more for Zerg and 3% less for Terran, and ZvT in Korea would be 53%-47%. Oh hey, that's not nice anymore.
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest
On August 09 2012 00:12 Grapefruit wrote: Okay, so we have 321 ZvTs in KR. 50,2% wins for Terran. That translates to 161 wins for Terran and 160 losses.
If you take away the scores from TaeJa and Gumiho that's 22 less wins and 4 less losses which would equal to 139 to 156.
So, if you just take away these two players the TvZ win-rate would drop to 47,1%.
Which is still pretty balanced for a single month snapshot.
On August 08 2012 23:40 aTnClouD wrote: [quote] Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest
It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid.
On August 08 2012 23:45 ELA wrote: KR TvZ winrate explained:
July games v. Z: 10 wins, 1 loss (90.91% winrate)
You forgot Gumiho vs Zerg 12-3 (80% winrate)
These two alone skew the Terran winrate like 10% or something.
2 players out of how many in korea? skew a winrate 10%? sorry but the math nowhere near checks out
Actually 20 wins out of the 2 does skew win rate by close to 10%, when total amount of game in the 300s
if the game total is 300 it skews it by roughly 6%, either way, there are always players who are on hot streaks and losing streaks over months, all part of fluctuation
Bring up 2 Zergs you want to have out of the equation, then we deduct the 2 best players in the matchup from each race and get a more median win-rate.
It doesn't work like that because Gumiho and Taeja are outliners of a statistic. Basically they are the big spikes. Zerg players has decent win rate across all players, so there're no outliners. Taeja and Gumiho almost have 30 40% better winrrate than average Korean Terran. To have a Zerg qualifying as an outliner, he has to have much significant winrate than the rest of the Zerg, and I don't think you can find one in July.
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it.
I have never seen you microing your units properly and horrible players like jonnyrecco win over people like naniwa. If you really think zerg players are better right now then I won't argue with you to pop the fantasy bubble you live in. Just enjoy the nonsense that's going on right now and try to win as much as you can while it lasts.
That argument works both ways though. A lot of Terrans that used to dominate the scene are performing a lot worse after the patch while players like Gumiho and Taeja are winning everything.
On August 08 2012 23:45 ELA wrote: KR TvZ winrate explained:
July games v. Z: 10 wins, 1 loss (90.91% winrate)
You forgot Gumiho vs Zerg 12-3 (80% winrate)
These two alone skew the Terran winrate like 10% or something.
2 players out of how many in korea? skew a winrate 10%? sorry but the math nowhere near checks out
there're 321 Korean games, so essentially 3 games ~ 1% if Taeja and Gumiho only won half of their game (Taeja lose 4 more, Gumiho lose 4 more), that were ~ 3% more for Zerg and 3% less for Terran, and ZvT in Korea would be 53%-47%. Oh hey, that's not nice anymore.
You can't pick stats like this, because it becomes meaningless.
If you suggest that, then what about removing the two Zergs with the best ZvT as well?
And then the cycle continues. Really bad terrans or really bad zergs skewing the numbers. Meaningless arguments because removing all outliers will leave you with the median or mean, more or less. Back to square one.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest
It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid.
You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels
On August 08 2012 23:40 aTnClouD wrote: [quote] Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport.
On August 08 2012 23:44 aTnClouD wrote: [quote] So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest
It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid.
You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels
That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport.
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest
It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid.
You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels
That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level.
This analogy makes no sense.
The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even. I for one would just crash this car if I try to go 120mph.
On August 08 2012 23:44 aTnClouD wrote: [quote] So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport.
On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:02 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 08 2012 23:48 nkr wrote:
On August 08 2012 23:46 aTnClouD wrote: [quote] Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest
It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid.
You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels
That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level.
This analogy makes no sense.
The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even.
The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL?
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport.
On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:02 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 08 2012 23:48 nkr wrote: [quote]
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest
It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid.
You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels
That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level.
This analogy makes no sense.
The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even.
The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL?
At this point I can't even tell if you are serious anymore
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport.
That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level.
sorry but this metaphor doesnt really fit at all. You have three unique races, all with different paradigmatic play styles. these playstyles are played differently and require different sets of skills. at lower levels where people cant perform each of these skills at a certain proficiency (otherwise theyd be high level), you cant identify the problem. thats the main issue here, and why people only focus on higher levels of play for balance issues; only at a high level can you rule out all the issues of people having glaring holes in their own gameplay
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it.
Suddenly players like JonnyREcco get much better. Suddenly code S terrans complain that every high master / grandmaster plays like stephano on the ladder.
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport.
On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:02 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 08 2012 23:48 nkr wrote: [quote]
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest
It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid.
You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels
That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level.
This analogy makes no sense.
The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even.
The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL?
No, SC2 shouldn't be simplified for lower leagues. The car analogy makes no sense.
Looks like Taejas nametaking still was not enough.
Non korean non code S terrans cant keep up since terran is that much harder, what a surprise. I wonder why any non-korean T has not switched races yet. Hell Demuslim offraces to beat other "top" terrans with zerg lol.
On August 08 2012 23:46 aTnClouD wrote: [quote] Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport.
On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:02 ragz_gt wrote: [quote]
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest
It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid.
You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels
That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level.
This analogy makes no sense.
The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even.
The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL?
No, SC2 shouldn't be simplified for lower leagues. The car analogy makes no sense.
Who said it should be simplified / dumbed down? I said it should be balanced. The idea that balanced game-play is a privilege only for Korean pros (not even foreign pros deserve it) is just dumb.
Is there any particular reason why game can't be balanced on all level? All I get is a bunch "because races are different it can't be done", it's like saying "airplane is heavier than air so it can't fly".
On August 09 2012 00:28 iky43210 wrote: there is nothing wrong with those stats. TLPD needs to stop using misleading scaling that makes thing seems worse than they really are.
broodwar winrates fluctuation is way worse than this, but people didn't complain about it every month/week
In the broodwar days, the metagame shifted much more slowly.
I think this is because the builds were much more refined than today.
On August 09 2012 00:28 iky43210 wrote: there is nothing wrong with those stats. TLPD needs to stop using misleading scaling that makes thing seems worse than they really are.
broodwar winrates fluctuation is way worse than this, but people didn't complain about it every month/week
the atmosphere was very different in broodwar surrounding balance. PvZ had a terrible winrate for how long before Bisu came around? The philosophy there was if your current strategies arent working anymore, then find new ones
let me sum up in advance how this is going to go: 1) if one of the graphs agrees with your conclusions, discount the other on its average skill level or sample size (international and korean, respectively). 2) if you want to use a graph that simultaneously supports your conclusions in one matchup but makes your race seem imbalanced in another, say that the former is balance but the latter is metagame this is how shit is going to go. these winrates are an interesting snapshot, but they don't give a complete picture, because they tell you nothing about who won against whom and by what method. i mean, if one race is relying on a really strong all-in or on a very abusive strategy to keep things at 50%, the matchup is likely to shift into imbalance once that strategy gets figured out. not saying that's what's going on here, but it's why these winrates tell you nothing. they give as much weight to a 6pool being held as to a terran outmacroing a zerg in a long tvz, even though the former has almost nothing to do with the state of the matchup as a whole. tl;dr winrates are cool but are only weakly correlated to balance
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport.
On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote: [quote] If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest
It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid.
You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels
That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level.
This analogy makes no sense.
The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even.
The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL?
No, SC2 shouldn't be simplified for lower leagues. The car analogy makes no sense.
Who said it should be simplified / dumbed down? I said it should be balanced. The idea that balanced game-play is a privilege only for Korean pros (not even foreign pros deserve it) is just dumb.
Is there any particular reason why game can't be balanced on all level? All I get is a bunch "because races are different it can't be done", it's like saying "airplane is heavier than air so it can't fly".
youre not listening to anything people are saying at this point. people have already explained why you cannot balance at all levels of play, unless you want to simplify the game as a whole. just go back and read what people have already said
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it.
Suddenly players like JonnyREcco get much better. Suddenly code S terrans complain that every high master / grandmaster plays like stephano on the ladder.
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport.
On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote: [quote]
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest
It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid.
You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels
That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level.
This analogy makes no sense.
The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even.
The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL?
No, SC2 shouldn't be simplified for lower leagues. The car analogy makes no sense.
Who said it should be simplified / dumbed down? I said it should be balanced. The idea that balanced game-play is a privilege only for Korean pros (not even foreign pros deserve it) is just dumb.
Is there any particular reason why game can't be balanced on all level? All I get is a bunch "because races are different it can't be done", it's like saying "airplane is heavier than air so it can't fly".
youre not listening to anything people are saying at this point. people have already explained why you cannot balance at all levels of play, unless you want to simplify the game as a whole. just go back and read what people have already said
I read that, that is NOT a reason, it's a conclusion, one with no evidence of backing it up.
On August 08 2012 23:46 aTnClouD wrote: [quote] Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport.
On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:02 ragz_gt wrote: [quote]
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest
It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid.
You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels
That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level.
This analogy makes no sense.
The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even.
The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL?
At this point I can't even tell if you are serious anymore
I cant tell if you are either. Entire post is literally full of your zerg bias and sad attempts to convince people everything is alright. Im not gonna share any views on the balance itself but you were clearly ignoring valid points to bring out random bad analogies comparing foreign terrans to gold players. Get off your high horse before you make yourself look any more retarded.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport.
On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote: [quote] If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest
It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid.
You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels
That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level.
This analogy makes no sense.
The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even.
The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL?
At this point I can't even tell if you are serious anymore
I cant tell if you are either. Entire post is literally full of your zerg bias and sad attempts to convince people everything is alright. Im not gonna share any views on the balance itself but you were clearly ignoring valid points to bring out random bad analogies comparing foreign terrans to gold players. Get off your high horse before you make yourself look any more retarded.
Haha, I wasn't comparing foreign terrans to gold players, I was using a hyperbole to make a point. If you had read the posts without your terran-bias goggles, maybe you would have seen it Stop being so angry.
On August 09 2012 00:30 ragz_gt wrote: Who said it should be simplified / dumbed down? I said it should be balanced. The idea that balanced game-play is a privilege only for Korean pros (not even foreign pros deserve it) is just dumb.
Is there any particular reason why game can't be balanced on all level? All I get is a bunch "because races are different it can't be done", it's like saying "airplane is heavier than air so it can't fly".
I am too lazy to search for my explanation from a previous thread (and then refine it because even then I was too lazy to write it properly), but basically...
The closer to perfection (high level play) your sample population plays, the fewer variables there will be. At close to perfection, it will be much easier to identify what aspects of game imbalance is a result of game design, unit statistics, strategic options, or gameplay mechanics and not skill. Because there are fewer differentiating variables between the population's level of skill, and with perfection, the easier it is to balance.
Imagine if they had to balance for Bronze. It is not an exaggeration to say that there could be thousands of different skills, mechanics, game sense, hand-eye coordination, etc related variables that would differentiate the Bronze from the Best. And even then, each Bronze player would be different from each other by an unfathomable amount. Then there are Silver, Gold, Plat, Diamond, and Masters players. The number of different variables in their play would make determining what is a result of game design imbalance impossible.
On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote: [quote] If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport.
On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote: [quote]
MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest
It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid.
You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels
That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level.
This analogy makes no sense.
The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even.
The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL?
No, SC2 shouldn't be simplified for lower leagues. The car analogy makes no sense.
Who said it should be simplified / dumbed down? I said it should be balanced. The idea that balanced game-play is a privilege only for Korean pros (not even foreign pros deserve it) is just dumb.
Is there any particular reason why game can't be balanced on all level? All I get is a bunch "because races are different it can't be done", it's like saying "airplane is heavier than air so it can't fly".
youre not listening to anything people are saying at this point. people have already explained why you cannot balance at all levels of play, unless you want to simplify the game as a whole. just go back and read what people have already said
I read that, that is NOT a reason, it's a conclusion, one with no evidence of backing it up.
People already answered you like 1000 times but you write your shit anyway. You lose not because of imbalance but because of mistakes you make. If you lose on low level you should IMPROVE, not write angry letters to blizzard about balance.
On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote: [quote] If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport.
On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote: [quote]
MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest
It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid.
You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels
That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level.
This analogy makes no sense.
The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even.
The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL?
No, SC2 shouldn't be simplified for lower leagues. The car analogy makes no sense.
Who said it should be simplified / dumbed down? I said it should be balanced. The idea that balanced game-play is a privilege only for Korean pros (not even foreign pros deserve it) is just dumb.
Is there any particular reason why game can't be balanced on all level? All I get is a bunch "because races are different it can't be done", it's like saying "airplane is heavier than air so it can't fly".
youre not listening to anything people are saying at this point. people have already explained why you cannot balance at all levels of play, unless you want to simplify the game as a whole. just go back and read what people have already said
I read that, that is NOT a reason, it's a conclusion, one with no evidence of backing it up.
Three races are different, each with their own playstyle. at lower levels people have huge holes in their gameplay, be it an inability to micro or they always forget injects. Marines should not be nerfed because gold league zergs are losing to marine pushes, because the holes in the zergs play (missing injects) prevents them from having enough units. This is an example of why you need to have a certain level of play before your winrates become workable data.
It would be easy to balance lower leagues along with high levels of play if, and only if, all players in all leagues were evenly skilled at everything, be it micro, macro etc. This way, the same changes would affect everyone at all leagues the same, because players are evenly skilled in ALL aspects of the game, not just an average of the components.
However, since the majority of people in lower leagues are more proficient at some subset of gameplay than others, we cannot use that system.
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport.
On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote: [quote]
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest
It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid.
You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels
That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level.
This analogy makes no sense.
The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even.
The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL?
No, SC2 shouldn't be simplified for lower leagues. The car analogy makes no sense.
Who said it should be simplified / dumbed down? I said it should be balanced. The idea that balanced game-play is a privilege only for Korean pros (not even foreign pros deserve it) is just dumb.
Is there any particular reason why game can't be balanced on all level? All I get is a bunch "because races are different it can't be done", it's like saying "airplane is heavier than air so it can't fly".
youre not listening to anything people are saying at this point. people have already explained why you cannot balance at all levels of play, unless you want to simplify the game as a whole. just go back and read what people have already said
The problem is that Blizzard doesn't take what you are saying into account all of the time. They have on numerous occasions balanced units around TEAM games......which shouldn't be happening. So, really they can do whatever they want, even if they shouldn't be doing most things.
On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote: [quote] If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport.
On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote: [quote]
MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest
It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid.
You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels
That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level.
This analogy makes no sense.
The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even.
The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL?
No, SC2 shouldn't be simplified for lower leagues. The car analogy makes no sense.
Who said it should be simplified / dumbed down? I said it should be balanced. The idea that balanced game-play is a privilege only for Korean pros (not even foreign pros deserve it) is just dumb.
Is there any particular reason why game can't be balanced on all level? All I get is a bunch "because races are different it can't be done", it's like saying "airplane is heavier than air so it can't fly".
youre not listening to anything people are saying at this point. people have already explained why you cannot balance at all levels of play, unless you want to simplify the game as a whole. just go back and read what people have already said
I read that, that is NOT a reason, it's a conclusion, one with no evidence of backing it up.
Here is why I think the game can be balanced on all level:
You start with 3 races that's completely identical (well, then it's 3 races, but whatever) Change one tiny things for each race so it's still balanced on all skill level. Now you have 3 distinct (well, not very different, still) races that's are balanced across skill levels keep doing that, theoretically you can have 3 fundamentally different races that is balanced on all levels.
It by no means easy to do. I'm not even sure if current SC2 is balanced or not across level, but we shouldn't give up balancing lower level just because 3 races are different. Competitive SC2 might mean alot on this forum, but majority of SC2 player cares absolutely nothing about it. They bought the game, want to enjoy it, and deserve a balanced gameplay even when they suck.
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport.
On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote: [quote]
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest
It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid.
You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels
That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level.
This analogy makes no sense.
The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even.
The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL?
At this point I can't even tell if you are serious anymore
I cant tell if you are either. Entire post is literally full of your zerg bias and sad attempts to convince people everything is alright. Im not gonna share any views on the balance itself but you were clearly ignoring valid points to bring out random bad analogies comparing foreign terrans to gold players. Get off your high horse before you make yourself look any more retarded.
Haha, I wasn't comparing foreign terrans to gold players, I was using a hyperbole to make a point. If you had read the posts without your terran-bias goggles, maybe you would have seen it Stop being so angry.
Angry? Im not saying there is or isnt a problem with zerg at the moment, only your attempts at convincing people everything is fine through flawed logic is pathetic. But hey, why do i even bother wasting my effort? You are practically not reading anything you dont agree with and coming up with random rubbish to replace it in your head.
On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote: [quote] If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport.
On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote: [quote]
MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest
It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid.
You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels
That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level.
This analogy makes no sense.
The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even.
The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL?
At this point I can't even tell if you are serious anymore
I cant tell if you are either. Entire post is literally full of your zerg bias and sad attempts to convince people everything is alright. Im not gonna share any views on the balance itself but you were clearly ignoring valid points to bring out random bad analogies comparing foreign terrans to gold players. Get off your high horse before you make yourself look any more retarded.
Haha, I wasn't comparing foreign terrans to gold players, I was using a hyperbole to make a point. If you had read the posts without your terran-bias goggles, maybe you would have seen it Stop being so angry.
Angry? Im not saying there is or isnt a problem with zerg at the moment, only your attempts at convincing people everything is fine through flawed logic is pathetic. But hey, why do i even bother wasting my effort? You are practically not reading anything you dont agree with and coming up with random rubbish to replace it in your head.
Funny, you're the one using a lot of random insults (or rubbish if you prefer that word) to make... no point at all. If you read my posts, you could try and tell me why I'm wrong, rather than blindly typing down every angry word that comes to your mind.
So as effect of patch balancing TvZ we have now third month with matchup being around 55% when for at least 9 months before patch winrates were newer worse than 54%. Good job Blizzard
Also nice that Korean graph now have much bigger sample size.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport.
On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote: [quote]
It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid.
You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels
That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level.
This analogy makes no sense.
The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even.
The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL?
No, SC2 shouldn't be simplified for lower leagues. The car analogy makes no sense.
Who said it should be simplified / dumbed down? I said it should be balanced. The idea that balanced game-play is a privilege only for Korean pros (not even foreign pros deserve it) is just dumb.
Is there any particular reason why game can't be balanced on all level? All I get is a bunch "because races are different it can't be done", it's like saying "airplane is heavier than air so it can't fly".
youre not listening to anything people are saying at this point. people have already explained why you cannot balance at all levels of play, unless you want to simplify the game as a whole. just go back and read what people have already said
I read that, that is NOT a reason, it's a conclusion, one with no evidence of backing it up.
Here is why I think the game can be balanced on all level:
You start with 3 races that's completely identical (well, then it's 3 races, but whatever) Change one tiny things for each race so it's still balanced on all skill level. Now you have 3 distinct (well, not very different, still) races that's are balanced across skill levels keep doing that, theoretically you can have 3 fundamentally different races that is balanced on all levels.
It by no means easy to do. I'm not even sure if current SC2 is balanced or not across level, but we shouldn't give up balancing lower level just because 3 races are different. Competitive SC2 might mean alot on this forum, but majority of SC2 player cares absolutely nothing about it. They bought the game, want to enjoy it, and deserve a balanced gameplay even when they suck.
If you just wanted to enjoy the game, why would you care one bit about balance? So you can blame your losses on something other than yourself?
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport.
On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote: [quote]
It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid.
You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels
That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level.
This analogy makes no sense.
The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even.
The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL?
No, SC2 shouldn't be simplified for lower leagues. The car analogy makes no sense.
Who said it should be simplified / dumbed down? I said it should be balanced. The idea that balanced game-play is a privilege only for Korean pros (not even foreign pros deserve it) is just dumb.
Is there any particular reason why game can't be balanced on all level? All I get is a bunch "because races are different it can't be done", it's like saying "airplane is heavier than air so it can't fly".
youre not listening to anything people are saying at this point. people have already explained why you cannot balance at all levels of play, unless you want to simplify the game as a whole. just go back and read what people have already said
I read that, that is NOT a reason, it's a conclusion, one with no evidence of backing it up.
Here is why I think the game can be balanced on all level:
You start with 3 races that's completely identical (well, then it's 3 races, but whatever) Change one tiny things for each race so it's still balanced on all skill level. Now you have 3 distinct (well, not very different, still) races that's are balanced across skill levels keep doing that, theoretically you can have 3 fundamentally different races that is balanced on all levels.
It by no means easy to do. I'm not even sure if current SC2 is balanced or not across level, but we shouldn't give up balancing lower level just because 3 races are different. Competitive SC2 might mean alot on this forum, but majority of SC2 player cares absolutely nothing about it. They bought the game, want to enjoy it, and deserve a balanced gameplay even when they suck.
When you change one tiny things, it affects the balance differently across the skill level. Name one thing that would have an equal affect across the skill level.
On August 09 2012 00:16 Sated wrote: [quote] You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport.
On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote: [quote]
You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels
That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level.
This analogy makes no sense.
The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even.
The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL?
No, SC2 shouldn't be simplified for lower leagues. The car analogy makes no sense.
Who said it should be simplified / dumbed down? I said it should be balanced. The idea that balanced game-play is a privilege only for Korean pros (not even foreign pros deserve it) is just dumb.
Is there any particular reason why game can't be balanced on all level? All I get is a bunch "because races are different it can't be done", it's like saying "airplane is heavier than air so it can't fly".
youre not listening to anything people are saying at this point. people have already explained why you cannot balance at all levels of play, unless you want to simplify the game as a whole. just go back and read what people have already said
I read that, that is NOT a reason, it's a conclusion, one with no evidence of backing it up.
Here is why I think the game can be balanced on all level:
You start with 3 races that's completely identical (well, then it's 3 races, but whatever) Change one tiny things for each race so it's still balanced on all skill level. Now you have 3 distinct (well, not very different, still) races that's are balanced across skill levels keep doing that, theoretically you can have 3 fundamentally different races that is balanced on all levels.
It by no means easy to do. I'm not even sure if current SC2 is balanced or not across level, but we shouldn't give up balancing lower level just because 3 races are different. Competitive SC2 might mean alot on this forum, but majority of SC2 player cares absolutely nothing about it. They bought the game, want to enjoy it, and deserve a balanced gameplay even when they suck.
If you just wanted to enjoy the game, why would you care one bit about balance? So you can blame your losses on something other than yourself?
How in the hell does balance not matter when you playing the game? By your logic there is no need to balance a game if it doesn't have a "esports" component? I haven't played since season 4 since all my friends quit, and it's joyless playing ladder with no social aspect, so I don't need to blame anything.
On August 09 2012 00:16 Sated wrote: [quote] You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport.
On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote: [quote]
You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels
That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level.
This analogy makes no sense.
The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even.
The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL?
No, SC2 shouldn't be simplified for lower leagues. The car analogy makes no sense.
Who said it should be simplified / dumbed down? I said it should be balanced. The idea that balanced game-play is a privilege only for Korean pros (not even foreign pros deserve it) is just dumb.
Is there any particular reason why game can't be balanced on all level? All I get is a bunch "because races are different it can't be done", it's like saying "airplane is heavier than air so it can't fly".
youre not listening to anything people are saying at this point. people have already explained why you cannot balance at all levels of play, unless you want to simplify the game as a whole. just go back and read what people have already said
I read that, that is NOT a reason, it's a conclusion, one with no evidence of backing it up.
Here is why I think the game can be balanced on all level:
You start with 3 races that's completely identical (well, then it's 3 races, but whatever) Change one tiny things for each race so it's still balanced on all skill level. Now you have 3 distinct (well, not very different, still) races that's are balanced across skill levels keep doing that, theoretically you can have 3 fundamentally different races that is balanced on all levels.
It by no means easy to do. I'm not even sure if current SC2 is balanced or not across level, but we shouldn't give up balancing lower level just because 3 races are different. Competitive SC2 might mean alot on this forum, but majority of SC2 player cares absolutely nothing about it. They bought the game, want to enjoy it, and deserve a balanced gameplay even when they suck.
When you change one tiny things, it affects the balance differently across the skill level. Name one thing that would have an equal affect across the skill level.
It hard as hell, but so we just give up because 99.999% of people who bought the game doesn't matter?
That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level.
This analogy makes no sense.
The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even.
The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL?
No, SC2 shouldn't be simplified for lower leagues. The car analogy makes no sense.
Who said it should be simplified / dumbed down? I said it should be balanced. The idea that balanced game-play is a privilege only for Korean pros (not even foreign pros deserve it) is just dumb.
Is there any particular reason why game can't be balanced on all level? All I get is a bunch "because races are different it can't be done", it's like saying "airplane is heavier than air so it can't fly".
youre not listening to anything people are saying at this point. people have already explained why you cannot balance at all levels of play, unless you want to simplify the game as a whole. just go back and read what people have already said
I read that, that is NOT a reason, it's a conclusion, one with no evidence of backing it up.
Here is why I think the game can be balanced on all level:
You start with 3 races that's completely identical (well, then it's 3 races, but whatever) Change one tiny things for each race so it's still balanced on all skill level. Now you have 3 distinct (well, not very different, still) races that's are balanced across skill levels keep doing that, theoretically you can have 3 fundamentally different races that is balanced on all levels.
It by no means easy to do. I'm not even sure if current SC2 is balanced or not across level, but we shouldn't give up balancing lower level just because 3 races are different. Competitive SC2 might mean alot on this forum, but majority of SC2 player cares absolutely nothing about it. They bought the game, want to enjoy it, and deserve a balanced gameplay even when they suck.
When you change one tiny things, it affects the balance differently across the skill level. Name one thing that would have an equal affect across the skill level.
It hard as hell, but so we just give up because 99.999% of people who bought the game doesn't matter?
It's not hard as hell, it's just impossible. Changing something in the game changes it for all levels of play. The only way to have balance for all levels of play would be to have a different game for each league on the ladder, all with different balance.
Surprisingly little drama over the numbers. Guess Taeja results are still keeping people quiet. Will be interesting to see how the 'patch zergs' fare before HotS and if foreigner terrans can recover.
On August 09 2012 00:50 NHY wrote: When you change one tiny things, it affects the balance differently across the skill level. Name one thing that would have an equal affect across the skill level.
A lot of things actually. Change in costs of one-time buildings like spawning pool would come close.
That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level.
This analogy makes no sense.
The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even.
The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL?
No, SC2 shouldn't be simplified for lower leagues. The car analogy makes no sense.
Who said it should be simplified / dumbed down? I said it should be balanced. The idea that balanced game-play is a privilege only for Korean pros (not even foreign pros deserve it) is just dumb.
Is there any particular reason why game can't be balanced on all level? All I get is a bunch "because races are different it can't be done", it's like saying "airplane is heavier than air so it can't fly".
youre not listening to anything people are saying at this point. people have already explained why you cannot balance at all levels of play, unless you want to simplify the game as a whole. just go back and read what people have already said
I read that, that is NOT a reason, it's a conclusion, one with no evidence of backing it up.
Here is why I think the game can be balanced on all level:
You start with 3 races that's completely identical (well, then it's 3 races, but whatever) Change one tiny things for each race so it's still balanced on all skill level. Now you have 3 distinct (well, not very different, still) races that's are balanced across skill levels keep doing that, theoretically you can have 3 fundamentally different races that is balanced on all levels.
It by no means easy to do. I'm not even sure if current SC2 is balanced or not across level, but we shouldn't give up balancing lower level just because 3 races are different. Competitive SC2 might mean alot on this forum, but majority of SC2 player cares absolutely nothing about it. They bought the game, want to enjoy it, and deserve a balanced gameplay even when they suck.
When you change one tiny things, it affects the balance differently across the skill level. Name one thing that would have an equal affect across the skill level.
It hard as hell, but so we just give up because 99.999% of people who bought the game doesn't matter?
I'm saying it's impossible. And it's not giving up on 99% of the people. 99% of the people are fine with the way it is.
Haha, once more these winrate threads turn into a whine-fest :-D.
The best part is that it doesn't really tell that much about balance. Assuming that the three races are equally attractive to skilled players*, you would expect ~33% of each race represented at the top in a well balanced game. AFAIK this is not the case if you look up the racial distribution in GM and from the experience of various midmaster - GM players of meeting fewer terrans (sc2ranks is down for me atm so can't confirm). There could potentially be an issue where protoss and zerg is easier to play resulting in overrepresentation on ladders and in tournaments (with korean terrans skewing it back to normal, because they are strong enough to use terran to its fullest). Although a quick glance at code A/S GSL still retains a strong terran representation, even after ro8. So overall the race might not be weaker, but just require more.
A sidenote, I've often seen people refer to WCS racial distribution as a problem (very few terrans in top 8 in almost all national qualifiers). I would be careful concluding anything from that because very few foreigner terrans changed their play after the patch (ie. when most WCS finals took place) and thus got whooped by themelves and their ancient strategies.
* Funny note, back when terran dominated GSL, and were overrepresented at high-master - GM, some people argued that terran just naturally was more appealing to talented players (LOL :-D).
On August 08 2012 23:45 ELA wrote: KR TvZ winrate explained:
July games v. Z: 10 wins, 1 loss (90.91% winrate)
You forgot Gumiho vs Zerg 12-3 (80% winrate)
These two alone skew the Terran winrate like 10% or something.
2 players out of how many in korea? skew a winrate 10%? sorry but the math nowhere near checks out
there're 321 Korean games, so essentially 3 games ~ 1% if Taeja and Gumiho only won half of their game (Taeja lose 4 more, Gumiho lose 4 more), that were ~ 3% more for Zerg and 3% less for Terran, and ZvT in Korea would be 53%-47%. Oh hey, that's not nice anymore.
You can't pick stats like this, because it becomes meaningless.
If you suggest that, then what about removing the two Zergs with the best ZvT as well?
And then the cycle continues. Really bad terrans or really bad zergs skewing the numbers. Meaningless arguments because removing all outliers will leave you with the median or mean, more or less. Back to square one.
Yes you can pick stats like that. That's the very basic fundamental when you look at chart and statistic. If you trade stock and stuff, and you don't know the source of why the that stock is flying so high, you will get perceived and get burn.
The reasons Taeja and Gumiho are counted as outliners because they contributed a significant number of games in TvZ, and have siginicant higher win rate than other Terran. Now compared to Zerg players, we have Leenock, Curious, Symbol (100% winrate), Horror (80%), Shine, Life, Sniper, Losira, DRG, Hyun (60%-70%). There are too many players that have good winrate against Terran, and most of them didn't contribue significant number of games to count as outliners. Among the Zerg there're only 2 players that contribute good number of games vT, such as Coca (14-5 73% winrate), and Nestea (4-9, 30%). But comparing between Coca's winnrate and others, he doesn't have any significant winrate that can be counted as outliner. On the other hand, Nestea can be counted as outliner because his winrrate was significantly lower than the rest of the Zerg. But that just proved that if you took Nestea out, ZvT winrate should even be higher.
On August 08 2012 23:27 iiGreetings wrote: Whoa pretty danm balanced... because i heard that terran was struggling, but it turns out its dead even with zerg basically. Thanks for this grapefruit!
EDIT:i speak of the korean ladder, as they are ahead of the meta game on average.
Unfortunately their metagame is to cheese or 1-base all in most of the time. The international terran win rate shows you what happens if you go beyond the early game :/
Do you even watch GSL? I hate when such misinformed posts are on the first page. Not only are you making shit up to whine, but you discredit terran players that show great play against zergs in macro matches. Fuck off
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport.
On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote: [quote] If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest
It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid.
You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels
That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level.
This analogy makes no sense.
The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even.
The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL?
No, SC2 shouldn't be simplified for lower leagues. The car analogy makes no sense.
Who said it should be simplified / dumbed down? I said it should be balanced. The idea that balanced game-play is a privilege only for Korean pros (not even foreign pros deserve it) is just dumb.
Is there any particular reason why game can't be balanced on all level? All I get is a bunch "because races are different it can't be done", it's like saying "airplane is heavier than air so it can't fly".
Why can’t lower level players look to see what they could be doing incorrectly, rather than asking for the game to be changed on a monthly basis? You do not need to be as good as a professional Korean player to beat a zerg of your skill level. You just need to be a little more like them, make decisions like them. You would be surprised how little it takes if you get into the mind set to truly reviewing your play for flaws.
I am currently out of practice as a protoss and get rocked by zergs, but I am not asking the game to be altered because I had to take a few months off. Even if Zergs are doing well against protoss, I still think it is possible to win and I’ll keep my eye on the metagame to see if there are any new ways to get it done.
On August 09 2012 01:00 pmp10 wrote: Surprisingly little drama over the numbers. Guess Taeja results are still keeping people quiet. Will be interesting to see how the 'patch zergs' fare before HotS and if foreigner terrans can recover.
On August 09 2012 00:50 NHY wrote: When you change one tiny things, it affects the balance differently across the skill level. Name one thing that would have an equal affect across the skill level.
A lot of things actually. Change in costs of one-time buildings like spawning pool would come close.
No, it doesn't even come close. Even changing the hp of spawning pool would affect balance differently.
On August 09 2012 01:09 ampson wrote: I wonder what the graph would look like if taeja were excluded.
There are about 800 TvZ international and about 300 TvZ in korea, if I see that right. Taeja played 11 TvZ, some international. This means it would not change much.
On August 09 2012 01:00 pmp10 wrote: Surprisingly little drama over the numbers. Guess Taeja results are still keeping people quiet. Will be interesting to see how the 'patch zergs' fare before HotS and if foreigner terrans can recover.
On August 09 2012 00:50 NHY wrote: When you change one tiny things, it affects the balance differently across the skill level. Name one thing that would have an equal affect across the skill level.
A lot of things actually. Change in costs of one-time buildings like spawning pool would come close.
No, it doesn't even come close. Even changing the hp of spawning pool would affect balance differently.
Hp maybe but as long as you have buildings that's build once per game anywhere from bronze league to code S then chances are it's cost will change a race balance irrelevant to the players skill level.
On August 08 2012 23:45 ELA wrote: KR TvZ winrate explained:
July games v. Z: 10 wins, 1 loss (90.91% winrate)
You forgot Gumiho vs Zerg 12-3 (80% winrate)
These two alone skew the Terran winrate like 10% or something.
2 players out of how many in korea? skew a winrate 10%? sorry but the math nowhere near checks out
there're 321 Korean games, so essentially 3 games ~ 1% if Taeja and Gumiho only won half of their game (Taeja lose 4 more, Gumiho lose 4 more), that were ~ 3% more for Zerg and 3% less for Terran, and ZvT in Korea would be 53%-47%. Oh hey, that's not nice anymore.
You can't pick stats like this, because it becomes meaningless.
If you suggest that, then what about removing the two Zergs with the best ZvT as well?
And then the cycle continues. Really bad terrans or really bad zergs skewing the numbers. Meaningless arguments because removing all outliers will leave you with the median or mean, more or less. Back to square one.
Yes you can pick stats like that. That's the very basic fundamental when you look at chart and statistic. If you trade stock and stuff, and you don't know the source of why the that stock is flying so high, you will get perceived and get burn.
The reasons Taeja and Gumiho are counted as outliners because they contributed a significant number of games in TvZ, and have siginicant higher win rate than other Terran. Now compared to Zerg players, we have Leenock, Curious, Symbol (100% winrate), Horror (80%), Shine, Life, Sniper, Losira, DRG, Hyun (60%-70%). There are too many players that have good winrate against Terran, and most of them didn't contribue significant number of games to count as outliners. Among the Zerg there're only 2 players that contribute good number of games vT, such as Coca (14-5 73% winrate), and Nestea (4-9, 30%). But comparing between Coca's winnrate and others, he doesn't have any significant winrate that can be counted as outliner. On the other hand, Nestea can be counted as outliner because his winrrate was significantly lower than the rest of the Zerg. But that just proved that if you took Nestea out, ZvT winrate should even be higher.
I rest my case.
I don't care if it is skewed for T or for Z.
I am against this kind of approach at looking at the numbers.
In this month's case, it just happens that there are two T outliers that contribute greatly to their win percentage, mostly because they played more games and the sample size is so small that their games affect the overall numbers so much. Fortunately for that person's argument, there weren't any Z outliers, as you showed. However these are numbers for a SINGLE month, with a sample size so small one person can affect it by a significant percentage.
Larger sample size, more months (within the same patch), either outliers will disappear or other outliers will appear because they will be able to play the matchup. They will cancel each other out if the game is near balance.
I don't see how the presence of these outliers is supposed to mean that the numbers are "wrong" or "skewed". Some people are good. Some people suck. That's caused by talent, not balance.
Reflects the skill level of foreigner vs korean pretty well. But the game looks really balanced in korea, even tvz, so I think it's fine, just give foreigners another month to adapt.
On August 09 2012 01:00 pmp10 wrote: Surprisingly little drama over the numbers. Guess Taeja results are still keeping people quiet. Will be interesting to see how the 'patch zergs' fare before HotS and if foreigner terrans can recover.
On August 09 2012 00:50 NHY wrote: When you change one tiny things, it affects the balance differently across the skill level. Name one thing that would have an equal affect across the skill level.
A lot of things actually. Change in costs of one-time buildings like spawning pool would come close.
No, it doesn't even come close. Even changing the hp of spawning pool would affect balance differently.
Hp maybe but as long as you have buildings that's build once per game anywhere from bronze league to code S then chances are it's cost will change a race balance irrelevant to the players skill level.
Let's just say we give zerg players extra 50 mineral at the beginning. We can agree that covers everyone from bronze league to code S. But that would also affect balance differently across skill level.
Edit: And average number of spawning pools built per game would not be same across the skill level.
It's funny how the general consensus seems to be that "herp derp foreigner terran just need to be better" while also saying "korean terrans have the same skill as korean toss/zerg".
Why wouldn't it be possible to at least try to balance every level? Just make Toss and Zerg not so easy, it has been 3 month since Terran is the worst race internationally, I think it's time for a change.
The balance changes shift the metagame pretty hard and have certainly made terran either be punished very severely for a few tiny mistakes or forced to have their early/mid game do lots more damage or go into the first scenario, but the issue that every terran complains about comes down to design more than anything. Sc2 design for the different races is too different in terms of units. Its a very "this counters this so build this" game at this point. Except terrans first units are so good that blizzard had to make all the rest kind of gimmicky or not scale well. This leaves once you get to a point in the game where P and Z can build (A, B, C, D units and mix them very powerfully), terran is stuck with much less to work with. Then you bring in how sc2 design is for TERRIBLE TERRIBLE DAMAGE, and how terran got the short end of that stick as well outside of stimpack, and there in lies the issues. Its what we all have to live with, and people just want to ignore that or shrug it off in the name of keeping our esport we love alive. I can't say I blame them for that, not to mention if Z and P were designed similarly to T, I don't think you'd ever see the foreign scene we have now.
Maybe now Ts will stop complaining about zerg after seeing it's balanced? Nah who am I kidding people will always cry imbalance even when there is none.
On August 09 2012 01:25 Greenei wrote: It's funny how the general consensus seems to be that "herp derp foreigner terran just need to be better" while also saying "korean terrans have the same skill as korean toss/zerg".
Why wouldn't it be possible to at least try to balance every level? Just make Toss and Zerg not so easy, it has been 3 month since Terran is the worst race internationally, I think it's time for a change.
Why is the game imbalanced for "other levels" if one region has a nearly 50/50 win rate and another does not? And if the region with the 50/50 win rate is also considered to have the most advanced metagame, why should the game be rebalanced? Why do you assume the game isn't balanced for your skill level?
The advantage of preparation is fairly obvious in the Korean TLPD vs. the "quick match" foreign tournaments. Skill difference between Korea and Western T still pretty big though =/
On August 09 2012 01:36 XiWi wrote: Hey all if the international games included the korea ones ( korea sample size ~2000 international 10k) I did some math and excluded the korean from the international ones and I got that international TvZ (w/o korea) is at ~42.77%
They are separate. I was wrong. The chart says they are included.
On August 08 2012 23:45 ELA wrote: KR TvZ winrate explained:
July games v. Z: 10 wins, 1 loss (90.91% winrate)
You forgot Gumiho vs Zerg 12-3 (80% winrate)
These two alone skew the Terran winrate like 10% or something.
2 players out of how many in korea? skew a winrate 10%? sorry but the math nowhere near checks out
there're 321 Korean games, so essentially 3 games ~ 1% if Taeja and Gumiho only won half of their game (Taeja lose 4 more, Gumiho lose 4 more), that were ~ 3% more for Zerg and 3% less for Terran, and ZvT in Korea would be 53%-47%. Oh hey, that's not nice anymore.
You can't pick stats like this, because it becomes meaningless.
If you suggest that, then what about removing the two Zergs with the best ZvT as well?
And then the cycle continues. Really bad terrans or really bad zergs skewing the numbers. Meaningless arguments because removing all outliers will leave you with the median or mean, more or less. Back to square one.
Yes you can pick stats like that. That's the very basic fundamental when you look at chart and statistic. If you trade stock and stuff, and you don't know the source of why the that stock is flying so high, you will get perceived and get burn.
The reasons Taeja and Gumiho are counted as outliners because they contributed a significant number of games in TvZ, and have siginicant higher win rate than other Terran. Now compared to Zerg players, we have Leenock, Curious, Symbol (100% winrate), Horror (80%), Shine, Life, Sniper, Losira, DRG, Hyun (60%-70%). There are too many players that have good winrate against Terran, and most of them didn't contribue significant number of games to count as outliners. Among the Zerg there're only 2 players that contribute good number of games vT, such as Coca (14-5 73% winrate), and Nestea (4-9, 30%). But comparing between Coca's winnrate and others, he doesn't have any significant winrate that can be counted as outliner. On the other hand, Nestea can be counted as outliner because his winrrate was significantly lower than the rest of the Zerg. But that just proved that if you took Nestea out, ZvT winrate should even be higher.
I rest my case.
I don't care if it is skewed for T or for Z.
I am against this kind of approach at looking at the numbers.
In this month's case, it just happens that there are two T outliers that contribute greatly to their win percentage, mostly because they played more games and the sample size is so small that their games affect the overall numbers so much. Fortunately for that person's argument, there weren't any Z outliers, as you showed. However these are numbers for a SINGLE month, with a sample size so small one person can affect it by a significant percentage.
Larger sample size, more months (within the same patch), either outliers will disappear or other outliers will appear because they will be able to play the matchup. They will cancel each other out if the game is near balance.
I don't see how the presence of these outliers is supposed to mean that the numbers are "wrong" or "skewed". Some people are good. Some people suck. That's caused by talent, not balance.
Same stuffs happened last month and I did the same stuff last month too. And same stuff is gonna happen next month, and I might have to do the same stuff next month too. I don't care about the number either. All I care about is the moving average on larger picture. I ran numbers to annoy people who use numbers to claim TvZ is not imbalance lol.
On August 09 2012 01:25 Greenei wrote: It's funny how the general consensus seems to be that "herp derp foreigner terran just need to be better" while also saying "korean terrans have the same skill as korean toss/zerg".
Why wouldn't it be possible to at least try to balance every level? Just make Toss and Zerg not so easy, it has been 3 month since Terran is the worst race internationally, I think it's time for a change.
Why is the game imbalanced for "other levels" if one region has a nearly 50/50 win rate and another does not? And if the region with the 50/50 win rate is also considered to have the most advanced metagame, why should the game be rebalanced?
Because the SC2 viewer base consists of foreigners and race distribution at foreign tournaments is important for the game success. This has no meaning in trying to look at things in 2-3 months of meta-game shifts but the overall long-term trends are important.
On August 09 2012 01:25 Greenei wrote: It's funny how the general consensus seems to be that "herp derp foreigner terran just need to be better" while also saying "korean terrans have the same skill as korean toss/zerg".
Why wouldn't it be possible to at least try to balance every level? Just make Toss and Zerg not so easy, it has been 3 month since Terran is the worst race internationally, I think it's time for a change.
In the last three months zerg has won 256 more games (1430-1174) than terran (considering that this data is correct) in the entire pro scene, and didn't they win like 8 times more tournaments than terran in the last few months?Like 24 to 3 or something like that, I can't seem to find the image, but the reason is simple, it's just that the talented players aren't picking terran, they always choose zerg or protoss and those that stick to terran are never good enough, that's why for god knows how many seasons terran has been underrepresented in masters and GM around the world, only the bad players pick terran, but it's all fine and dandy, soon we will learn how to macro even better like Idra suggested and we will have many JonnyReccos and Sortofs.
On August 09 2012 01:31 hunts wrote: Maybe now Ts will stop complaining about zerg after seeing it's balanced? Nah who am I kidding people will always cry imbalance even when there is none.
Funny, find any Z's in here calling T's whiners, check their post history and you will most likely find something like this:
On September 10 2011 09:12 hunts wrote: neural change is quite possibly the dumbest thing I've seen from blizzard yet. Yeah infstor is a bit too good of a unit as is, but it's basicly the only thing actually keeping Z viable as a race. If they want to really nerf ifnestors, they need to buff zerg elsewhere to keep it viable, but they aren't doing that. They nerfed fungal with no compensation, but that was fine because it wasn't a huge nerf. But now they are doing a huge nerf, and still no compensation. The overseer buff while nice still in no way helps the actual Z army. And while the ultra buff is better than nothing, it still doesn't help the actual zerg army because honeslty, ultras are still useless and will die before getting to their targets, even if they are fungald.
On August 09 2012 01:25 Greenei wrote: It's funny how the general consensus seems to be that "herp derp foreigner terran just need to be better" while also saying "korean terrans have the same skill as korean toss/zerg".
Why wouldn't it be possible to at least try to balance every level? Just make Toss and Zerg not so easy, it has been 3 month since Terran is the worst race internationally, I think it's time for a change.
Why is the game imbalanced for "other levels" if one region has a nearly 50/50 win rate and another does not? And if the region with the 50/50 win rate is also considered to have the most advanced metagame, why should the game be rebalanced? Why do you assume the game isn't balanced for your skill level?
Because the game makes more fun if the game is blanced. 99% of people who play this game are out of the balanced region. I can't see why they shouldn't matter at all.
It's comical how many logical fallacies you find in this thread.
On topic, the Korean data is definitely interesting. On the ladder it feels like Terrans have started to really adapt to the new Zerg style of play and are more aggressive with their drops and removal of creep from the map.
Watching some of the top players actually shows you the potential each race has. It's up to us as players to unlock that potential, not up to Blizzard to make the potential easier to obtain.
On August 09 2012 01:25 Greenei wrote: It's funny how the general consensus seems to be that "herp derp foreigner terran just need to be better" while also saying "korean terrans have the same skill as korean toss/zerg".
Why wouldn't it be possible to at least try to balance every level? Just make Toss and Zerg not so easy, it has been 3 month since Terran is the worst race internationally, I think it's time for a change.
Why is the game imbalanced for "other levels" if one region has a nearly 50/50 win rate and another does not? And if the region with the 50/50 win rate is also considered to have the most advanced metagame, why should the game be rebalanced? Why do you assume the game isn't balanced for your skill level?
Because the game makes more fun if the game is blanced. 99% of people who play this game are out of the balanced region. I can't see why they shouldn't matter at all.
I am having a great time and I am still getting rocked by zerg, protoss and terran's alike. Have you ever considered that you might now be playing a paticular match up correctly? Or that your winrates are not that bad against people of the same skill lever? Why are your losses to "less skilled players" not the results of some bad decision you made, rather than the fault of some balance issue?
On August 09 2012 01:25 Greenei wrote: Why wouldn't it be possible to at least try to balance every level? Just make Toss and Zerg not so easy, it has been 3 month since Terran is the worst race internationally, I think it's time for a change.
Just for answers like this one I like to come to these monthly threads :D
Apart from foreigner Ts the numbers seem quite ok.
Curious how long it will take blizzard, even after the beta, to come close to these numbers in HotS^^
On August 09 2012 01:31 hunts wrote: Maybe now Ts will stop complaining about zerg after seeing it's balanced? Nah who am I kidding people will always cry imbalance even when there is none.
Funny, find any Z's in here calling T's whiners, check their post history and you will most likely find something like this:
On September 10 2011 09:12 hunts wrote: neural change is quite possibly the dumbest thing I've seen from blizzard yet. Yeah infstor is a bit too good of a unit as is, but it's basicly the only thing actually keeping Z viable as a race. If they want to really nerf ifnestors, they need to buff zerg elsewhere to keep it viable, but they aren't doing that. They nerfed fungal with no compensation, but that was fine because it wasn't a huge nerf. But now they are doing a huge nerf, and still no compensation. The overseer buff while nice still in no way helps the actual Z army. And while the ultra buff is better than nothing, it still doesn't help the actual zerg army because honeslty, ultras are still useless and will die before getting to their targets, even if they are fungald.
Keep it classy
This is absolute gold, you found the king balance hypocrite that the guy a few posts above me was talking about!
This is actually very balanced, the international win rate is definitely where it is acceptable to be and with lots of figuring out, maybe it will return to normal, though I really think the queen buff was still too much and should be reversed, or at least bring BFH back .
So you had to dig back 11 months to find something I said to somehow prove that it's now ok to whine about balance? Congrats... I guess? I guess the balanced win rates in korea and T even being ahead of Z again still won't stop the diehard whiners.
On August 09 2012 01:31 hunts wrote: Maybe now Ts will stop complaining about zerg after seeing it's balanced? Nah who am I kidding people will always cry imbalance even when there is none.
Funny, find any Z's in here calling T's whiners, check their post history and you will most likely find something like this:
On September 10 2011 09:12 hunts wrote: neural change is quite possibly the dumbest thing I've seen from blizzard yet. Yeah infstor is a bit too good of a unit as is, but it's basicly the only thing actually keeping Z viable as a race. If they want to really nerf ifnestors, they need to buff zerg elsewhere to keep it viable, but they aren't doing that. They nerfed fungal with no compensation, but that was fine because it wasn't a huge nerf. But now they are doing a huge nerf, and still no compensation. The overseer buff while nice still in no way helps the actual Z army. And while the ultra buff is better than nothing, it still doesn't help the actual zerg army because honeslty, ultras are still useless and will die before getting to their targets, even if they are fungald.
Keep it classy
This is absolute gold, you found the king balance hypocrite that the guy a few posts above me was talking about!
Beautiful, beautiful post! haha i love seeing stuff like this, people so high on their silly high horse that they can't even see themselves down below ^^
It's interesting to me that people seem to consider the 871 games in korea more valuable and indicative of balance than the 2,642 games played internationally... just the fact that subtracting two players' results from the korean data can swing the z/t ratio several percentage points shows how inconclusive the korean data is. That sample size is too small to be the relavent figure.
On August 09 2012 01:31 hunts wrote: Maybe now Ts will stop complaining about zerg after seeing it's balanced? Nah who am I kidding people will always cry imbalance even when there is none.
Funny, find any Z's in here calling T's whiners, check their post history and you will most likely find something like this:
On September 10 2011 09:12 hunts wrote: neural change is quite possibly the dumbest thing I've seen from blizzard yet. Yeah infstor is a bit too good of a unit as is, but it's basicly the only thing actually keeping Z viable as a race. If they want to really nerf ifnestors, they need to buff zerg elsewhere to keep it viable, but they aren't doing that. They nerfed fungal with no compensation, but that was fine because it wasn't a huge nerf. But now they are doing a huge nerf, and still no compensation. The overseer buff while nice still in no way helps the actual Z army. And while the ultra buff is better than nothing, it still doesn't help the actual zerg army because honeslty, ultras are still useless and will die before getting to their targets, even if they are fungald.
Keep it classy
This is absolute gold, you found the king balance hypocrite that the guy a few posts above me was talking about!
LOL, this is hilarious.
Seriously though, interesting stats as always, P doing quite well in korea lately!
<snip> On August 09 2012 02:01 cmcaneff5502 wrote:
It's interesting to me that people seem to consider the 871 games in korea more valuable and indicative of balance than the 2,642 games played internationally... just the fact that subtracting two players' results from the korean data can swing the z/t ratio several percentage points shows how inconclusive the korean data is. That sample size is too small to be the relavent figure.
The sample size isn't small enough to be insignificant though. The only reason I prefer the Korean statistics in general is that the level of play is generally higher so it's as close as you're going to get to removing the human element from the statistics.
As an example, one could say that you should analyze stats based on Bronze-Diamond play instead of Masters-GM play because that sample size is larger. I think you can see that this approach wouldn't yield positive results.
On August 09 2012 01:31 hunts wrote: Maybe now Ts will stop complaining about zerg after seeing it's balanced? Nah who am I kidding people will always cry imbalance even when there is none.
Funny, find any Z's in here calling T's whiners, check their post history and you will most likely find something like this:
On September 10 2011 09:12 hunts wrote: neural change is quite possibly the dumbest thing I've seen from blizzard yet. Yeah infstor is a bit too good of a unit as is, but it's basicly the only thing actually keeping Z viable as a race. If they want to really nerf ifnestors, they need to buff zerg elsewhere to keep it viable, but they aren't doing that. They nerfed fungal with no compensation, but that was fine because it wasn't a huge nerf. But now they are doing a huge nerf, and still no compensation. The overseer buff while nice still in no way helps the actual Z army. And while the ultra buff is better than nothing, it still doesn't help the actual zerg army because honeslty, ultras are still useless and will die before getting to their targets, even if they are fungald.
all the zergs in this forum are pointing to Korean winrate for TvZ but the fact is nobody can macro, micro or cheese like a Korean terran... they are just a different breed. The other 99.99% who play Terran are still having trouble...3 months seems like a long enough time for the metagame to shift and if you look at the international numbers, the matchup isn't showing signs of returning to 50-50, rather the exact opposite.
On August 08 2012 23:27 iiGreetings wrote: Whoa pretty danm balanced... because i heard that terran was struggling, but it turns out its dead even with zerg basically. Thanks for this grapefruit!
EDIT:i speak of the korean ladder, as they are ahead of the meta game on average.
Unfortunately their metagame is to cheese or 1-base all in most of the time. The international terran win rate shows you what happens if you go beyond the early game :/
5 percent imbalance is hardly that bad. No one complains at pvt 52%, with reason I'd say. Two percent is trivial. So a 3 percent increase on that is room for despair? I think lower level terrans need to merely accept: 1) they clearly havent been adopting the strategies of pro terrans as much as they should have 2) terran probably has the higher skill curve in the game.
It seems to be a sc2 thing to say something like "terran is underpowered at lower levels". Thats nonsensical. Terran is weaker than other races when you play it really incompetently. OK. That doesnt matter; stop playing it incompetently. Terran probably had a higher skill curve in broodwar and the community never talked about imbalance at the lower levels in that way, it was merely accepted that if you wanted to play terran there would have to be quite a few mechanical/timing things youd have to iron out before you could really fly up the ranks, and it would be frustrating. C'est la vie.
On August 08 2012 23:27 iiGreetings wrote: Whoa pretty danm balanced... because i heard that terran was struggling, but it turns out its dead even with zerg basically. Thanks for this grapefruit!
EDIT:i speak of the korean ladder, as they are ahead of the meta game on average.
Unfortunately their metagame is to cheese or 1-base all in most of the time. The international terran win rate shows you what happens if you go beyond the early game :/
5 percent imbalance is hardly that bad. No one complains at pvt 52%, with reason I'd say. Two percent is trivial. So a 3 percent increase on that is room for despair? I think lower level terrans need to merely accept: 1) they clearly havent been adopting the strategies of pro terrans as much as they should have 2) terran probably has the higher skill curve in the game.
It seems to be a sc2 thing to say something like "terran is underpowered at lower levels". Thats nonsensical. Terran is weaker than other races when you play it really incompetently. OK. That doesnt matter; stop playing it incompetently. Terran probably had a higher skill curve in broodwar and the community never talked about imbalance at the lower levels in that way, it was merely accepted that if you wanted to play terran there would have to be quite a few mechanical/timing things youd have to iron out before you could really fly up the ranks, and it would be frustrating. C'est la vie.
When by "lower level" you mean where people can reasonable expected to pass, like plat+, it's acceptable even if not ideal. But if the "balanced" zone only consistent Korean pro-gamers, that becomes ridiculous. Is SC2 Terran learning curve so high that only people who are BETTER THAN FOREIGN PRO GAMERS can pass it? If it is, that's a pretty broken system.
On August 09 2012 02:13 paddyz wrote: Forreigner terrans not playing so great.
It's always been like that. In foreign statistics tvz never looked bad for Zerg just kr. Also people have to realize international has lots of no name joes playing super good zergs.
On August 09 2012 02:13 paddyz wrote: Forreigner terrans not playing so great.
It's always been like that. In foreign statistics tvz never looked bad for Zerg just kr. Also people have to realize international has lots of no name joes playing super good zergs.
And it doesn't work other way around as well ? Your bias is just mind blowing.
Guys don't forget, the international data also includes the Korean data, theres no real separation between the graphs, except that the international includes even more information.
It's interesting to me that people seem to consider the 871 games in korea more valuable and indicative of balance than the 2,642 games played internationally... just the fact that subtracting two players' results from the korean data can swing the z/t ratio several percentage points shows how inconclusive the korean data is. That sample size is too small to be the relavent figure.
The sample size isn't small enough to be insignificant though. The only reason I prefer the Korean statistics in general is that the level of play is generally higher so it's as close as you're going to get to removing the human element from the statistics.
As an example, one could say that you should analyze stats based on Bronze-Diamond play instead of Masters-GM play because that sample size is larger. I think you can see that this approach wouldn't yield positive results.
871 games are actually a lot though. People are still crying about the period like 09/2010 - 09/2011 where TvZ hovered around 60%, but there were only 1100+ games for the whole 12 months. Now we have almost 900 games for mere 3 months.
This page lists the top two players from each tournament, for 61 total players. How many terrans on the list? Six . That means that if you average it, there's 22.5 protoss players, 22.5 zerg players, and 6 terran players making it to the finals of tournaments (some slots and two whole tournaments are ???). Only one of those 40 tournaments was won by a Terran player.
The stats show, unless you practice 8-10 hours a day every like the very top end Koreans, you're pretty fucked as a Terran player.
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
Whatever you say Avilo. Why don't you try to qq a bit less... Woah terran losing for a couple of months and EVERYONE ABANDON SHIP YO! If P or Z players acted like you, top level games would be tvt exclusivy
I think the races are balanced, but you need to overcome the learning curve hurdle of Terran and this graph represents exactly how I feel everyday. If I had 10 hours a day to devote, then the races are balanced, but if I only have 4 hours a day there not. I’ve been playing Terran non-stop every day for the last 2 years. I’m platinum. I’m ok with that, I think I’ve pretty much resigned myself to it, but I’ve played Zerg and Protoss a handful of times and I was easily beating diamonds. Now, who knows, maybe my play style isn’t conducive to the dynamics of Terran, but it’s frustrating never the less.
Just like expected, game is pretty balanced on the highest lvl right now, QQ lazy foreign terrans get to work. As for the "fun" fact, please give me the stats for zerg without stephano and drg or for toss without mc/other top toss ?
On August 09 2012 02:13 paddyz wrote: Forreigner terrans not playing so great.
It's always been like that. In foreign statistics tvz never looked bad for Zerg just kr. Also people have to realize international has lots of no name joes playing super good zergs.
I completely agree with you here, what we have here is lots of no name terrans playing zerg stars and skewing the graphs, if only these new and old stars had picked terran everything would be different.
Koreans do not account for the "everyone". There is a clear line of skill between Koreans and other professionals. Dont' be proud stating that "its balanced" because Koreans spend 18+ hours a day perfecting their crafting. Whereas other progessional teams don't come close to the work ethic of Koreans. No one can just "micro" as good as MVP, MKP, MMA, Gumiho, and Taeja and call the race balanced.
Terran is broken. Its as simple as that. What is the end game goal of Terran? MMMGV every game? Terran does not have a late game, and its early/mid is disappearing as the other races have figured out how to defend. Its not tears, its just the way it is right now.
On August 09 2012 02:54 PauseBreak wrote: Koreans do not account for the "everyone". There is a clear line of skill between Koreans and other professionals. Dont' be proud and ignorant stating that "its balanced" because Koreans spend 18+ hours a day perfecting their crafting. Whereas other progessional teams don't come close to the work ethic of Koreans. No one can just "micro" as good as MVP, MKP, MMA, Gumiho, and Taeja and call the race balanced.
Terran is broken. Its as simple as that. What is the end game goal of Terran? MMMGV every game? Terran does not have a late game, and its early/mid is disappearing as the other races have figured out how to defend. Its not tears, its just the way it is right now.
nop, its only tears. What terran buff would you suggest, that wouldnt make gsl 60% terrans again? It's getting annoying seeing people bitch about balance without giving any suggestions.Why dont you just get better instead of whining on forums. p.s. im terran player myself.
Why are there so many cries? In BW toss were OP until you were C+ in iccup where your mechanics are good enough to play against them. Stop creating a veil of invincibility around these koreans and just practice and get better. Yeah, its true that your micro/ macro will never be as good as mma/mkp/mvp etc etc, but the zergs you are playing arent nestea, drg, leenock, symbol. If you people cant get better at this game through practice (lets be honest here, you only need like 1-2 hours a day or 5-6 games a day to play sc2 at a decent level on ladder), go play LoL. Remember when protoss players are crying against zerg 24/7 because of the stephano build? Now look at the graph, do you know what changed between that time and now balance wise? Nothing. Any race imbalances can be overcome if you spend less time crying and more time practicing.
Protoss players are the most amazing. The race that has statiscally struggled the most all through out the game's life. Terran has statiscally dorminated, and even with all those nerfs it's still doing alright. I am more impressed with protoss players, they whine less and rise to the occasion.
Protoss players in my opinion are the better players.
On August 09 2012 03:05 KingAce wrote: Protoss players are the most amazing. The race that has statiscally struggled the most all through out the game's life. Terran has statiscally dorminated, and even with all those nerfs it's still doing alright. I am more impressed with protoss players, they whine less and rise to the occasion.
Protoss players in my opinion are the better players.
Who won the first couple of GSL's? Who won the first couple of MLG's? Where is this Terran dominance that you speak of?
On August 09 2012 03:05 KingAce wrote: Protoss players are the most amazing. The race that has statiscally struggled the most all through out the game's life. Terran has statiscally dorminated, and even with all those nerfs it's still doing alright. I am more impressed with protoss players, they whine less and rise to the occasion.
Protoss players in my opinion are the better players.
I can't see neither sad marine nor sad zergling club, so i'm not sure about that part ^^
On August 09 2012 02:54 PauseBreak wrote: Koreans do not account for the "everyone". There is a clear line of skill between Koreans and other professionals. Dont' be proud and ignorant stating that "its balanced" because Koreans spend 18+ hours a day perfecting their crafting. Whereas other progessional teams don't come close to the work ethic of Koreans. No one can just "micro" as good as MVP, MKP, MMA, Gumiho, and Taeja and call the race balanced.
Terran is broken. Its as simple as that. What is the end game goal of Terran? MMMGV every game? Terran does not have a late game, and its early/mid is disappearing as the other races have figured out how to defend. Its not tears, its just the way it is right now.
nop, its only tears. What terran buff would you suggest, that wouldnt make gsl 60% terrans again? It's getting annoying seeing people bitch about balance without giving any suggestions.Why dont you just get better instead of whining on forums. p.s. im terran player myself.
Did you change race?
On February 14 2012 01:29 Artok wrote: zvz,zvz,zvz, 2 base all in, 2 base all in, zvz, zvz, 2 base all in, zvz. Nothing else ;/
On August 09 2012 02:54 PauseBreak wrote: Koreans do not account for the "everyone". There is a clear line of skill between Koreans and other professionals. Dont' be proud and ignorant stating that "its balanced" because Koreans spend 18+ hours a day perfecting their crafting. Whereas other progessional teams don't come close to the work ethic of Koreans. No one can just "micro" as good as MVP, MKP, MMA, Gumiho, and Taeja and call the race balanced.
Terran is broken. Its as simple as that. What is the end game goal of Terran? MMMGV every game? Terran does not have a late game, and its early/mid is disappearing as the other races have figured out how to defend. Its not tears, its just the way it is right now.
nop, its only tears. What terran buff would you suggest, that wouldnt make gsl 60% terrans again? It's getting annoying seeing people bitch about balance without giving any suggestions.Why dont you just get better instead of whining on forums. p.s. im terran player myself.
Need patch b4 hots. Get rid of autocast for chargelots and give terran snipe back, go ahead and make it so you can't snipe ultras. Do this and game is balanced.
On August 09 2012 03:10 -Duderino- wrote: Need patch b4 hots. Get rid of autocast for chargelots and give terran snipe back, go ahead and make it so you can't snipe ultras. Do this and game is balanced.
At this rate ultras will be immune to everything O_O
On August 09 2012 02:43 syriuszonito wrote: Just like expected, game is pretty balanced on the highest lvl right now, QQ lazy foreign terrans get to work. As for the "fun" fact, please give me the stats for zerg without stephano and drg or for toss without mc/other top toss ?
cool story but drg and stephano havent won jack in july
terran 100% carried by one player as always, so sad for international pro's
On August 09 2012 03:10 -Duderino- wrote: Need patch b4 hots. Get rid of autocast for chargelots and give terran snipe back, go ahead and make it so you can't snipe ultras. Do this and game is balanced.
At this rate ultras will be immune to everything O_O
Trust me ultras are not a problem Broodlord infestor is.
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
If this logic was actually something Blizzard followed, the queen buff would NEVER have happened, and neither would most of the terran nerfs.
Blizzard is babysitting the shit out of zerg and protoss because the races got a low skill cap. The ones who suffer are terrans, people who actually put in the time to practice the game, the entirety of the SC2 community that wants to watch and play good games, and anyone not at korean T level of play.
On August 09 2012 02:54 PauseBreak wrote: Koreans do not account for the "everyone". There is a clear line of skill between Koreans and other professionals. Dont' be proud and ignorant stating that "its balanced" because Koreans spend 18+ hours a day perfecting their crafting. Whereas other progessional teams don't come close to the work ethic of Koreans. No one can just "micro" as good as MVP, MKP, MMA, Gumiho, and Taeja and call the race balanced.
Terran is broken. Its as simple as that. What is the end game goal of Terran? MMMGV every game? Terran does not have a late game, and its early/mid is disappearing as the other races have figured out how to defend. Its not tears, its just the way it is right now.
nop, its only tears. What terran buff would you suggest, that wouldnt make gsl 60% terrans again? It's getting annoying seeing people bitch about balance without giving any suggestions.Why dont you just get better instead of whining on forums. p.s. im terran player myself.
On August 08 2012 23:38 aTnClouD wrote: [quote] Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
I'll follow the advice of the guy above you, I'll just stop posting here cause it seems idiocy is rampant. Besides, having a perfectly balanced game at the top and below is possible, koreans will be good no matter what as long as the game balance remains the same, all Blizzard has to do is making zerg mechanics harder so it's a more challenging race to play.
If zerg was such an easy race then amazing players like DRG, NesTea and soon Jaedong would have won and will win every tournament. That's not the case.
If you think nestea and jaedong are amazing SC2 players, then you are an idiot. Neither has posted particularly impressive games recently.
Jaedong still has a way to go, nestea is a hasbeen.
Here's why Zerg is such an easy race: stephano plays it because it is easy, and succeeds with it because it is easy.
On August 09 2012 02:54 PauseBreak wrote: Koreans do not account for the "everyone". There is a clear line of skill between Koreans and other professionals. Dont' be proud and ignorant stating that "its balanced" because Koreans spend 18+ hours a day perfecting their crafting. Whereas other progessional teams don't come close to the work ethic of Koreans. No one can just "micro" as good as MVP, MKP, MMA, Gumiho, and Taeja and call the race balanced.
Terran is broken. Its as simple as that. What is the end game goal of Terran? MMMGV every game? Terran does not have a late game, and its early/mid is disappearing as the other races have figured out how to defend. Its not tears, its just the way it is right now.
nop, its only tears. What terran buff would you suggest, that wouldnt make gsl 60% terrans again? It's getting annoying seeing people bitch about balance without giving any suggestions.Why dont you just get better instead of whining on forums. p.s. im terran player myself.
Did you change race?
On February 14 2012 01:29 Artok wrote: zvz,zvz,zvz, 2 base all in, 2 base all in, zvz, zvz, 2 base all in, zvz. Nothing else ;/
Exactly. He's Zerg. Ofc its balanced.
You could read my recent post and i can msg you my profile link, just pm me for that.
I dont care what the stats say terran is very weak IMO. The stats dont show cheesy korean terrans that use powerfull attacks that are either a hit or miss. What about us terran players that want to use strategies that are not all-in but actually requires solid macro play. We are swallowed up in the 55.7% winrate of zerg players while the agressive coin flip terrans get away with the wins. So far I only know of one build that allows (sort of) solid macro play with harassment that doesnt lose you the game when you dont do significant damage. Its just weird how you hear zerg players say we terrans should be more "creative" as if TVZ is a white canvas on which you can paint all the colors of the rainbow and you are only limited by your imagination lololol
On August 09 2012 02:43 syriuszonito wrote: Just like expected, game is pretty balanced on the highest lvl right now, QQ lazy foreign terrans get to work. As for the "fun" fact, please give me the stats for zerg without stephano and drg or for toss without mc/other top toss ?
cool story but drg and stephano havent won jack in july
terran 100% carried by one player as always, so sad for international pro's
I'm pretty sure Stephano won something alongside his 30000$ in july...
On August 09 2012 03:10 -Duderino- wrote: Need patch b4 hots. Get rid of autocast for chargelots and give terran snipe back, go ahead and make it so you can't snipe ultras. Do this and game is balanced.
At this rate ultras will be immune to everything O_O
Zerg might be balanced but not fun to watch/play. PvZ immortal sentry all in vs roaches to infestors. TvZ T goes Hellion/banshee vs queens to infestors.
Honestly infestors need a nerf because they make all the matchups centered around them. I miss stuff like Mutas vs T every game.
The whole sniping tanks/avoid thors/turrets/marines made for a dynamic matchup.
I tend to look more to changes in gameplay then these shity numbers. A few months ago (or 1, i don't even know) terran had no clue at all what to do against zerg. Now i see terrans with a lot more of a plan, a lot more pressure etc. Overall it's going up. i was a bit worried when i saw zvt after the patch, but now i am calmed down by the play of good terrans.
Now, before anyone asks: i am zerg, so biased as hell. Also, i am platinum, so i don't understand anything of the game: i see a blob of units going across the map, strategy is totally useless for me. When i watch games, i am totally in awe of good mechanics. Also, i played brood war, so i probably should come off my high horse.
Edit + offtopic: Hey, i'm a ling now :D:D Can i now bash people for being new on tl? /jk
You understand the irony of saying infestors need nerfed because they're in every game then immediately saying I miss mutas because they were in every game..?
On August 09 2012 03:32 Probe1 wrote: You understand the irony of saying infestors need nerfed because they're in every game then immediately saying I miss mutas because they were in every game..?
Mutas are more exciting then infestors. Infestors walk around with your deathball and cast fungal.
Mutas would fly around and harass, with a large risk/reward aspect.
On August 09 2012 02:13 paddyz wrote: Forreigner terrans not playing so great.
It's always been like that. In foreign statistics tvz never looked bad for Zerg just kr. Also people have to realize international has lots of no name joes playing super good zergs.
Ok. Then it's fine to say that the only reason terran has done so well is because korean terrans are just better players.
Reminder that foreign terrans are simply worse than their zerg/protoss buddies, whereas korean terrans can't possibly be better than korean zergs/protosses.
Flawless logic coming from our alien players since the release of SC2.
Taeja and Gumiho are the only Terrans from Korea that can beat a Z on any consistent basis from a macro standpoint, and to get into that position most of the time they are actually utilizing a pretty coin flip heavy build to punish greedy Z's. I don't think this will get any better until HOTS, or until they do some massive nerfing of Infestors/Blord deathball.
On August 09 2012 03:32 Probe1 wrote: You understand the irony of saying infestors need nerfed because they're in every game then immediately saying I miss mutas because they were in every game..?
And you understand the essence of his post that mutas were very dynamic and active, needing skill from both sides, in contrast to infestors, which sit there and wait for a group of units for the to fungle to death?
I am terran and i think Its fine! But i am angry at all The Zergs WHO said Its balanced only because taeja and such terrans win. Remember that fruktdealer and nestea won when zerg was up... Sorry i was writeing from phone
On August 09 2012 01:25 Greenei wrote: It's funny how the general consensus seems to be that "herp derp foreigner terran just need to be better" while also saying "korean terrans have the same skill as korean toss/zerg".
Why wouldn't it be possible to at least try to balance every level? Just make Toss and Zerg not so easy, it has been 3 month since Terran is the worst race internationally, I think it's time for a change.
Why is the game imbalanced for "other levels" if one region has a nearly 50/50 win rate and another does not? And if the region with the 50/50 win rate is also considered to have the most advanced metagame, why should the game be rebalanced? Why do you assume the game isn't balanced for your skill level?
Because the game makes more fun if the game is blanced. 99% of people who play this game are out of the balanced region. I can't see why they shouldn't matter at all.
I am having a great time and I am still getting rocked by zerg, protoss and terran's alike. Have you ever considered that you might now be playing a paticular match up correctly? Or that your winrates are not that bad against people of the same skill lever? Why are your losses to "less skilled players" not the results of some bad decision you made, rather than the fault of some balance issue?
As long as I'm not playing at the MMRlimit longtime matchup statistics are indeed pretty much only dependent from my own MU-strengh. That's just how Battle.net works. But the problem is, that the Terrans I play are so much better then the Zergs and Tosses but they are still on the same level.
Yeah I know it's only my own opinion blablabla but the statistics show that at least there is a problem in the international scene. I don't see why that shouldn't be balanced at least too. Theres also money flowing in the smaller tourneys.
On August 09 2012 01:56 hunts wrote: So you had to dig back 11 months to find something I said to somehow prove that it's now ok to whine about balance? Congrats... I guess? I guess the balanced win rates in korea and T even being ahead of Z again still won't stop the diehard whiners.
On August 08 2012 23:28 DoeniDon wrote: Don't look bad at all!
If you listened to all the complaining lately, you'd think Zerg is at about 90% ...
If you see all those terran nerfs and zerg buffs, you would think that terrans would start to do worse. But no, our top korean terrans can be nerfed as hard as you want, they will keep dominating. I hope that one day people realise that some korean terrans are just gods.
On the other hand there are the high master / grandmaster terrans in EU and NA that suffer hard from those terran nerfs, because most of them don't have the time to practice 10 hours a day.
Terrans have started to do significantly worse, including in Korea? They went from making up like 75% of the GSL to now being properly represented. Just because they are still around 50% does not mean they aren't doing worse relatively, which is the only logical comparison one would make.
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
If this logic was actually something Blizzard followed, the queen buff would NEVER have happened, and neither would most of the terran nerfs.
Blizzard is babysitting the shit out of zerg and protoss because the races got a low skill cap. The ones who suffer are terrans, people who actually put in the time to practice the game, the entirety of the SC2 community that wants to watch and play good games, and anyone not at korean T level of play.
Wah wah wah my race is the hardest to play with the highest skill cap, thats why i suck. Other races are easy, if i were zerg or protoss i would have won a bajillion gsls already.
On August 08 2012 23:38 aTnClouD wrote: [quote] Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
I'll follow the advice of the guy above you, I'll just stop posting here cause it seems idiocy is rampant. Besides, having a perfectly balanced game at the top and below is possible, koreans will be good no matter what as long as the game balance remains the same, all Blizzard has to do is making zerg mechanics harder so it's a more challenging race to play.
If zerg was such an easy race then amazing players like DRG, NesTea and soon Jaedong would have won and will win every tournament. That's not the case.
How is ease to play relevant in the scenario at the top? Just because a race is easier to play does not make it inherently stronger.
For example, although we all know APM isn't a direct correlation to skill/performance, let's say it was and by some ungodly scenario it could be with objective numbers.
Say Terran benefits most from APM increases. A Terran with 150 APM might have a skill/performance of "75". A Terran with 250 APM might have a skill/performance of 90, and a Terran with 350 APM might have a skill/performance of 95.
At the same time, a Zerg with 150 APM might be able to perform at a skill level of 85. A Zerg with 250 APM might be able to perform at a skill/performance of 93, and a Zerg with 350 APM might have a skill/performance of 95.
Assuming there is no benefit to going beyond 350 APM (for simplicity's sake), we could say that TvZ is balanced at the highest level, yet anywhere below the highest level Zerg is going to perform much better than Terran. It's easier to play at a lower level. This does NOT affect the top tier you mentioned, such as Nestea, DRG, etc. It only affects those below. Zerg at the very top might be just as hard to play as Terran, it's just that it's a lot easier to get "near" the top with Zerg and much less skill than with Terran.
Hopefully that made sense, no time to edit since my lunch break just ended.
I think Zerg is totally imbalanced! Every ZvZ I play the zerg always wins...people are complaining about a 47-53% winrate....we got a 100% zerg winrate over here and people dont seem to care!
I have no idea what race is imbalanced. I think that the strategic depth of Zerg strategies is lacking in the non-mirror, just because there are a couple of do-all builds that require little more than rote memorization of reactions. Of course, it's not so much a balance thing so much as it is boring and simplistic, which I think stunts innovation and makes the metagame extremely dry.
On August 09 2012 04:49 Shiori wrote: I have no idea what race is imbalanced. I think that the strategic depth of Zerg strategies is lacking in the non-mirror, just because there are a couple of do-all builds that require little more than rote memorization of reactions. Of course, it's not so much a balance thing so much as it is boring and simplistic, which I think stunts innovation and makes the metagame extremely dry.
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick.
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
I'll follow the advice of the guy above you, I'll just stop posting here cause it seems idiocy is rampant. Besides, having a perfectly balanced game at the top and below is possible, koreans will be good no matter what as long as the game balance remains the same, all Blizzard has to do is making zerg mechanics harder so it's a more challenging race to play.
If zerg was such an easy race then amazing players like DRG, NesTea and soon Jaedong would have won and will win every tournament. That's not the case.
How is ease to play relevant in the scenario at the top? Just because a race is easier to play does not make it inherently stronger.
For example, although we all know APM isn't a direct correlation to skill/performance, let's say it was and by some ungodly scenario it could be with objective numbers.
Say Terran benefits most from APM increases. A Terran with 150 APM might have a skill/performance of "75". A Terran with 250 APM might have a skill/performance of 90, and a Terran with 350 APM might have a skill/performance of 95.
At the same time, a Zerg with 150 APM might be able to perform at a skill level of 85. A Zerg with 250 APM might be able to perform at a skill/performance of 93, and a Zerg with 350 APM might have a skill/performance of 95.
Assuming there is no benefit to going beyond 350 APM (for simplicity's sake), we could say that TvZ is balanced at the highest level, yet anywhere below the highest level Zerg is going to perform much better than Terran. It's easier to play at a lower level. This does NOT affect the top tier you mentioned, such as Nestea, DRG, etc. It only affects those below. Zerg at the very top might be just as hard to play as Terran, it's just that it's a lot easier to get "near" the top with Zerg and much less skill than with Terran.
Hopefully that made sense, no time to edit since my lunch break just ended.
Thank you. Someone who can think beyond GSL race distribution as if Zerg and Protoss didnt win GSLs while being underrepresented.
According to some people here, any terran pro that is not top tier Korean player, which currently means Taeja, Alive, Byun and MKP, maybe Gumiho, should just stop playing because even though they probably practice as hard as their zerg and protoss colleagues, they simply suck at this game.
Overall, there is less terrans in finishing rounds of tournaments,there is less terrans winning tournaments, there is less pro terran streamers, there is less terrans who are actually candidates for winning anything (atm Taeja is probably the only one), terran is underrepresented in ladder all the way to gm etc.
People need to look at this realistically, numbers don't lie, opinions of people based on their view of the matchup from their ladder experience don't >>> facts. This is hurting sc2 and so called esports.
International wr is composed of both international and Korean tournament win rates, you also have worldwide gm player representation. We now have 3 months of data and anyone who says TvZ is ok is actually hurting this game.
On August 09 2012 03:46 Dalavita wrote: Reminder that foreign terrans are simply worse than their zerg/protoss buddies, whereas korean terrans can't possibly be better than korean zergs/protosses.
Flawless logic coming from our alien players since the release of SC2.
Sad but true...
"besides thorzain and kas no one else is good compared to other foreign races!"
"but taeja, mkp, mma, mvp aren't actually BETTER than others, it's just the race!"
The way that Terran was designed--that is, to take advantage of timings, exploit terrain, etc--is an advantage that was going to have diminishing returns as players developed a familiarity with responding to those various exploits. Zerg, being the reactive race, was going to strengthen as knowledge of defenses increased.
I don't know if pure MMM is completely viable anymore for late game play. Maybe Blizzard needs to shrink map size. Or maybe Terran players need to adjust to playing an immobile turtle deathball style.
the closest thing to a one-way balance-check for lower leagues would be to look at people who only play random, no? If random players keep winning way more with one race that tells something, even though its possible "random players" differ from us who stick to won race in some significant fashion. IE if the population of random players does not match the population of players as a whole in some important aspect (apart from them playing random of course).
On August 09 2012 04:49 Shiori wrote: I have no idea what race is imbalanced. I think that the strategic depth of Zerg strategies is lacking in the non-mirror, just because there are a couple of do-all builds that require little more than rote memorization of reactions. Of course, it's not so much a balance thing so much as it is boring and simplistic, which I think stunts innovation and makes the metagame extremely dry.
Bingo.
And this is a result of Infestors being such a do all-unit (good anti-air, as harassment, and powerful in large battles), and the reactionary aspect of Zerg. The longer since the game is was released, the more Zerg's have realized through playing where they can cut corners and where they can't and thus it does become a "couple of do-all builds that require little more than rote memorization of reactions" simply because they react to what they see and that almost always means getting Infestors, since they are just better than Hydras in almost any situation, and have proven themselves to be superior to be Mutalisks too, as Terrans first, then Protoss have discovered how to deal with Mutalisks.
Sadly, I think this is a problem with PvP too, because the Colossus is so powerful it is almost impossible to avoid massing them late game. And the Protoss in PvZ have a pretty stale metagame too.
On August 09 2012 05:05 jdsowa wrote: Nerfs and buffs aside--
The way that Terran was designed--that is, to take advantage of timings, exploit terrain, etc--is an advantage that was going to have diminishing returns as players developed a familiarity with responding to those various exploits. Zerg, being the reactive race, was going to strengthen as knowledge of defenses increased.
I don't know if pure MMM is completely viable anymore for late game play. Maybe Blizzard needs to shrink map size. Or maybe Terran players need to adjust to playing an immobile turtle deathball style.
This is what various Terran players told Z and P players but they refused to listen and just cried for buffs the entire length of the game, while also calling for incredibly large maps that are by far much larger than the vast majority of BW maps now adays.
The changes seems to be minor and reasonable. I think creep tumor change is alot more important in late game TvZ. I'm not sure how much Raven speed buff does, as I think a buff seeker missile rather than raven itself is more needed.
On August 09 2012 05:21 ragz_gt wrote: Well, Zerg is getting nerfed and Terran buffed.
The changes seems to be minor and reasonable. I think creep tumor change is alot more important in late game TvZ. I'm not sure how much Raven speed buff does, as I think a buff seeker missile rather than raven itself is more needed.
We will see how it turns out.
Did I miss some patch or something or where are you getting this?
On August 09 2012 05:21 ragz_gt wrote: Well, Zerg is getting nerfed and Terran buffed.
The changes seems to be minor and reasonable. I think creep tumor change is alot more important in late game TvZ. I'm not sure how much Raven speed buff does, as I think a buff seeker missile rather than raven itself is more needed.
We will see how it turns out.
At least they noticed something is wrong instead of saying things like "we are happy with tournament results". I like the idea of buffing ravens both in terms of speed but also acceleration. It was too easy to lose them to a fungal.
On August 09 2012 05:21 ragz_gt wrote: Well, Zerg is getting nerfed and Terran buffed.
The changes seems to be minor and reasonable. I think creep tumor change is alot more important in late game TvZ. I'm not sure how much Raven speed buff does, as I think a buff seeker missile rather than raven itself is more needed.
We will see how it turns out.
Did I miss some patch or something or where are you getting this?
On August 09 2012 05:21 ragz_gt wrote: Well, Zerg is getting nerfed and Terran buffed.
The changes seems to be minor and reasonable. I think creep tumor change is alot more important in late game TvZ. I'm not sure how much Raven speed buff does, as I think a buff seeker missile rather than raven itself is more needed.
We will see how it turns out.
Did I miss some patch or something or where are you getting this?
There's a PTR for a creep tumor nerf and a raven speed & acceleration buff:
On August 09 2012 05:21 ragz_gt wrote: Well, Zerg is getting nerfed and Terran buffed.
The changes seems to be minor and reasonable. I think creep tumor change is alot more important in late game TvZ. I'm not sure how much Raven speed buff does, as I think a buff seeker missile rather than raven itself is more needed.
We will see how it turns out.
At least they noticed something is wrong instead of saying things like "we are happy with tournament results". I like the idea of buffing ravens both in terms of speed but also acceleration. It was too easy to lose them to a fungal.
Hope they really implement the changes.
They said they plan to implement them in a week, so it's a pretty safe bet.
On August 08 2012 23:27 iiGreetings wrote: Whoa pretty danm balanced... because i heard that terran was struggling, but it turns out its dead even with zerg basically. Thanks for this grapefruit!
EDIT:i speak of the korean ladder, as they are ahead of the meta game on average.
Unfortunately their metagame is to cheese or 1-base all in most of the time. The international terran win rate shows you what happens if you go beyond the early game :/
5 percent imbalance is hardly that bad. No one complains at pvt 52%, with reason I'd say. Two percent is trivial. So a 3 percent increase on that is room for despair? I think lower level terrans need to merely accept: 1) they clearly havent been adopting the strategies of pro terrans as much as they should have 2) terran probably has the higher skill curve in the game.
It seems to be a sc2 thing to say something like "terran is underpowered at lower levels". Thats nonsensical. Terran is weaker than other races when you play it really incompetently. OK. That doesnt matter; stop playing it incompetently. Terran probably had a higher skill curve in broodwar and the community never talked about imbalance at the lower levels in that way, it was merely accepted that if you wanted to play terran there would have to be quite a few mechanical/timing things youd have to iron out before you could really fly up the ranks, and it would be frustrating. C'est la vie.
When by "lower level" you mean where people can reasonable expected to pass, like plat+, it's acceptable even if not ideal. But if the "balanced" zone only consistent Korean pro-gamers, that becomes ridiculous. Is SC2 Terran learning curve so high that only people who are BETTER THAN FOREIGN PRO GAMERS can pass it? If it is, that's a pretty broken system.
And you really think thats the skill curve? Clearly it isnt. Top foreign terrans are behind top foreign zergs, that doesnt imply master terrans cant beat master zergs, ecetera. I have no problem off racing as terran and beating low masters, its not any harder a match up for me whether I off race or not.
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
care to explain how you can come to that conclusion?
just like they should have buffed ovies but not queens IMO, the raven buff is cool but they DON'T need to nerf creep on top of it.
the level of complaining I guessis what's pushing them but it's a shame. small changes blizz! don't double solve problems, especially without giving them time to work themselves out.
On August 08 2012 23:27 iiGreetings wrote: Whoa pretty danm balanced... because i heard that terran was struggling, but it turns out its dead even with zerg basically. Thanks for this grapefruit!
EDIT:i speak of the korean ladder, as they are ahead of the meta game on average.
Unfortunately their metagame is to cheese or 1-base all in most of the time. The international terran win rate shows you what happens if you go beyond the early game :/
5 percent imbalance is hardly that bad. No one complains at pvt 52%, with reason I'd say. Two percent is trivial. So a 3 percent increase on that is room for despair? I think lower level terrans need to merely accept: 1) they clearly havent been adopting the strategies of pro terrans as much as they should have 2) terran probably has the higher skill curve in the game.
It seems to be a sc2 thing to say something like "terran is underpowered at lower levels". Thats nonsensical. Terran is weaker than other races when you play it really incompetently. OK. That doesnt matter; stop playing it incompetently. Terran probably had a higher skill curve in broodwar and the community never talked about imbalance at the lower levels in that way, it was merely accepted that if you wanted to play terran there would have to be quite a few mechanical/timing things youd have to iron out before you could really fly up the ranks, and it would be frustrating. C'est la vie.
When by "lower level" you mean where people can reasonable expected to pass, like plat+, it's acceptable even if not ideal. But if the "balanced" zone only consistent Korean pro-gamers, that becomes ridiculous. Is SC2 Terran learning curve so high that only people who are BETTER THAN FOREIGN PRO GAMERS can pass it? If it is, that's a pretty broken system.
And you really think thats the skill curve? Clearly it isnt. Top foreign terrans are behind top foreign zergs, that doesnt imply master terrans cant beat master zergs, ecetera. I have no problem off racing as terran and beating low masters, its not any harder a match up for me whether I off race or not.
Of course I don't think that, that's just dumb. But that's what people say "Foreign Terran just bad, compare to foreign Z/P, look at Koreans" are suggesting.
On August 09 2012 05:57 Vari wrote: UGH blizz is overreacting to the problem IMO.
just like they should have buffed ovies but not queens IMO, the raven buff is cool but they DON'T need to nerf creep on top of it.
the level of complaining I guessis what's pushing them but it's a shame. small changes blizz! don't double solve problems, especially without giving them time to work themselves out.
They didn't do anything for 3 months after the patch. Also, queen change was obviously bigger than they thought since it revealed how strong fast creep pushing can be when zergs get more than 1 queen per hatch.
Since zerg early game buff was pretty big, there are only 2 options in my opinion: 1. Give equally strong buff to terran late game - something like buffing both bc and raven 2. Give slight nerf to zerg in the earlier stages of the game (like slowing down creep) and give slight buff to terran late game.
Yes I play terran but I think those changes are reasonable. Of course, there is always a possibility that some new raven strats will reveal imbalance (like it was the case with queens) but blizzard will hopefully act if that problem appears.
As for Korea, I think if you don't have Gumiho or Taeja TvZ is still below what it should be considering all of the other best players in the world who play Terran and only boast >50% TvZ win rates.
On August 08 2012 23:27 iiGreetings wrote: Whoa pretty danm balanced... because i heard that terran was struggling, but it turns out its dead even with zerg basically. Thanks for this grapefruit!
EDIT:i speak of the korean ladder, as they are ahead of the meta game on average.
Unfortunately their metagame is to cheese or 1-base all in most of the time. The international terran win rate shows you what happens if you go beyond the early game :/
5 percent imbalance is hardly that bad. No one complains at pvt 52%, with reason I'd say. Two percent is trivial. So a 3 percent increase on that is room for despair? I think lower level terrans need to merely accept: 1) they clearly havent been adopting the strategies of pro terrans as much as they should have 2) terran probably has the higher skill curve in the game.
It seems to be a sc2 thing to say something like "terran is underpowered at lower levels". Thats nonsensical. Terran is weaker than other races when you play it really incompetently. OK. That doesnt matter; stop playing it incompetently. Terran probably had a higher skill curve in broodwar and the community never talked about imbalance at the lower levels in that way, it was merely accepted that if you wanted to play terran there would have to be quite a few mechanical/timing things youd have to iron out before you could really fly up the ranks, and it would be frustrating. C'est la vie.
When by "lower level" you mean where people can reasonable expected to pass, like plat+, it's acceptable even if not ideal. But if the "balanced" zone only consistent Korean pro-gamers, that becomes ridiculous. Is SC2 Terran learning curve so high that only people who are BETTER THAN FOREIGN PRO GAMERS can pass it? If it is, that's a pretty broken system.
And you really think thats the skill curve? Clearly it isnt. Top foreign terrans are behind top foreign zergs, that doesnt imply master terrans cant beat master zergs, ecetera. I have no problem off racing as terran and beating low masters, its not any harder a match up for me whether I off race or not.
This evidence might only suggest that playing Zerg is simply easier than playing Terran as a foreigner. I don't think it necessarily suggests Zergs being better than Terrans as foreigners at all. I think most people would agree the reverse is true since most Terrans can offrace with Zerg at least at their MMR or much higher with very little play.
On August 09 2012 06:29 zmansman17 wrote: International Terran is still so bad.
As for Korea, I think if you don't have Gumiho or Taeja TvZ is still below what it should be considering all of the other best players in the world who play Terran and only boast >50% TvZ win rates.
How about we removing every terran win this month. OMG ZERG 100% winrate, imbalance! You can't just remove stats to fit your need.
This evidence might only suggest that playing Zerg is simply easier than playing Terran as a foreigner. I don't think it necessarily suggests Zergs being better than Terrans as foreigners at all. I think most people would agree the reverse is true since most Terrans can offrace with Zerg at least at their MMR or much higher with very little play.
If that where true, Terrans would do that in tournaments where money is on the line. Yes they do offrace from time to time on stream but so do Zerg, also with a decent winrate. No reason to pick a "shitty" race with a low winrate if your offrace is "so much better".
On August 09 2012 06:29 zmansman17 wrote: International Terran is still so bad.
As for Korea, I think if you don't have Gumiho or Taeja TvZ is still below what it should be considering all of the other best players in the world who play Terran and only boast >50% TvZ win rates.
How about we removing every terran win this month. OMG ZERG 100% winrate, imbalance! You can't just remove stats to fit your need.
You make quite a leap in logic. Removing every game is not the same as removing 2 players who had SUCH an impact on TvZ TLPD in Korea that they drastically change the stats. It's worth considering as a more honest metric of the rest of Korea. Considering their win rates, they are more or less outliers.
On August 09 2012 06:29 zmansman17 wrote: International Terran is still so bad.
As for Korea, I think if you don't have Gumiho or Taeja TvZ is still below what it should be considering all of the other best players in the world who play Terran and only boast >50% TvZ win rates.
How about we removing every terran win this month. OMG ZERG 100% winrate, imbalance! You can't just remove stats to fit your need.
On August 08 2012 23:45 ELA wrote: KR TvZ winrate explained:
July games v. Z: 10 wins, 1 loss (90.91% winrate)
You forgot Gumiho vs Zerg 12-3 (80% winrate)
These two alone skew the Terran winrate like 10% or something.
2 players out of how many in korea? skew a winrate 10%? sorry but the math nowhere near checks out
there're 321 Korean games, so essentially 3 games ~ 1% if Taeja and Gumiho only won half of their game (Taeja lose 4 more, Gumiho lose 4 more), that were ~ 3% more for Zerg and 3% less for Terran, and ZvT in Korea would be 53%-47%. Oh hey, that's not nice anymore.
You can't pick stats like this, because it becomes meaningless.
If you suggest that, then what about removing the two Zergs with the best ZvT as well?
And then the cycle continues. Really bad terrans or really bad zergs skewing the numbers. Meaningless arguments because removing all outliers will leave you with the median or mean, more or less. Back to square one.
Yes you can pick stats like that. That's the very basic fundamental when you look at chart and statistic. If you trade stock and stuff, and you don't know the source of why the that stock is flying so high, you will get perceived and get burn.
The reasons Taeja and Gumiho are counted as outliners because they contributed a significant number of games in TvZ, and have siginicant higher win rate than other Terran. Now compared to Zerg players, we have Leenock, Curious, Symbol (100% winrate), Horror (80%), Shine, Life, Sniper, Losira, DRG, Hyun (60%-70%). There are too many players that have good winrate against Terran, and most of them didn't contribue significant number of games to count as outliners. Among the Zerg there're only 2 players that contribute good number of games vT, such as Coca (14-5 73% winrate), and Nestea (4-9, 30%). But comparing between Coca's winnrate and others, he doesn't have any significant winrate that can be counted as outliner. On the other hand, Nestea can be counted as outliner because his winrrate was significantly lower than the rest of the Zerg. But that just proved that if you took Nestea out, ZvT winrate should even be higher.
edit: since cherrypicking and skewing the system is somehow ok now, this whole system became pointless since you can turn it any way you want from now on and people will do it .
On August 09 2012 06:55 xrapture wrote: I've never understood how, when Korea always has 1/5th (sometimes less) the sample size of the international, people put more into the Korean graphs
Because the koreans play at the upper most level. Foreign international counts I believe every match up in tournaments which could have stephano vs no name joe, or Kas vs no name bob. It skews results because no name joe/bob could be absolutely awful and it would skew results in favor of w/e race.
You will notice international tvz has always been different then in kr just because of the skill difference. In the KR sample size is ALL top players. In international it's not. That is a huge difference and this game should be balanced around top level play not mid level.
On August 09 2012 06:55 xrapture wrote: I've never understood how, when Korea always has 1/5th (sometimes less) the sample size of the international, people put more into the Korean graphs
Koreans represent the highest level of play, so balance is most relevant at their level. Granted, sample size must be taken into account.
On August 09 2012 06:29 zmansman17 wrote: International Terran is still so bad.
As for Korea, I think if you don't have Gumiho or Taeja TvZ is still below what it should be considering all of the other best players in the world who play Terran and only boast >50% TvZ win rates.
How about we removing every terran win this month. OMG ZERG 100% winrate, imbalance! You can't just remove stats to fit your need.
On August 08 2012 23:45 ELA wrote: KR TvZ winrate explained:
July games v. Z: 10 wins, 1 loss (90.91% winrate)
You forgot Gumiho vs Zerg 12-3 (80% winrate)
These two alone skew the Terran winrate like 10% or something.
2 players out of how many in korea? skew a winrate 10%? sorry but the math nowhere near checks out
there're 321 Korean games, so essentially 3 games ~ 1% if Taeja and Gumiho only won half of their game (Taeja lose 4 more, Gumiho lose 4 more), that were ~ 3% more for Zerg and 3% less for Terran, and ZvT in Korea would be 53%-47%. Oh hey, that's not nice anymore.
You can't pick stats like this, because it becomes meaningless.
If you suggest that, then what about removing the two Zergs with the best ZvT as well?
And then the cycle continues. Really bad terrans or really bad zergs skewing the numbers. Meaningless arguments because removing all outliers will leave you with the median or mean, more or less. Back to square one.
Yes you can pick stats like that. That's the very basic fundamental when you look at chart and statistic. If you trade stock and stuff, and you don't know the source of why the that stock is flying so high, you will get perceived and get burn.
The reasons Taeja and Gumiho are counted as outliners because they contributed a significant number of games in TvZ, and have siginicant higher win rate than other Terran. Now compared to Zerg players, we have Leenock, Curious, Symbol (100% winrate), Horror (80%), Shine, Life, Sniper, Losira, DRG, Hyun (60%-70%). There are too many players that have good winrate against Terran, and most of them didn't contribue significant number of games to count as outliners. Among the Zerg there're only 2 players that contribute good number of games vT, such as Coca (14-5 73% winrate), and Nestea (4-9, 30%). But comparing between Coca's winnrate and others, he doesn't have any significant winrate that can be counted as outliner. On the other hand, Nestea can be counted as outliner because his winrrate was significantly lower than the rest of the Zerg. But that just proved that if you took Nestea out, ZvT winrate should even be higher.
So it's ok to remove Taeja and Gumiho but not coca because his win-rate is not different enough from other zergs? You do realize that there are other Terran who do very well right? Mkp went 8-3 in july, hack 8-4, mma 6-1, heart 7-2,polt, reality,etc
And you don't get to just remove the guys who win a lot, you also have to take out those who lose a lot, in both races, every month, so for example in june, remove symbol,etc.
People were complaining last month because of a small sample size but now that it's 3 times the size you would think people wouldn't compain... Anyway looks good.
On August 09 2012 06:29 zmansman17 wrote: International Terran is still so bad.
As for Korea, I think if you don't have Gumiho or Taeja TvZ is still below what it should be considering all of the other best players in the world who play Terran and only boast >50% TvZ win rates.
How about we removing every terran win this month. OMG ZERG 100% winrate, imbalance! You can't just remove stats to fit your need.
On August 09 2012 01:04 canikizu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:18 lichter wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:13 canikizu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:00 Pazuzu wrote:
On August 08 2012 23:55 canikizu wrote:
On August 08 2012 23:45 ELA wrote: KR TvZ winrate explained:
July games v. Z: 10 wins, 1 loss (90.91% winrate)
You forgot Gumiho vs Zerg 12-3 (80% winrate)
These two alone skew the Terran winrate like 10% or something.
2 players out of how many in korea? skew a winrate 10%? sorry but the math nowhere near checks out
there're 321 Korean games, so essentially 3 games ~ 1% if Taeja and Gumiho only won half of their game (Taeja lose 4 more, Gumiho lose 4 more), that were ~ 3% more for Zerg and 3% less for Terran, and ZvT in Korea would be 53%-47%. Oh hey, that's not nice anymore.
You can't pick stats like this, because it becomes meaningless.
If you suggest that, then what about removing the two Zergs with the best ZvT as well?
And then the cycle continues. Really bad terrans or really bad zergs skewing the numbers. Meaningless arguments because removing all outliers will leave you with the median or mean, more or less. Back to square one.
Yes you can pick stats like that. That's the very basic fundamental when you look at chart and statistic. If you trade stock and stuff, and you don't know the source of why the that stock is flying so high, you will get perceived and get burn.
The reasons Taeja and Gumiho are counted as outliners because they contributed a significant number of games in TvZ, and have siginicant higher win rate than other Terran. Now compared to Zerg players, we have Leenock, Curious, Symbol (100% winrate), Horror (80%), Shine, Life, Sniper, Losira, DRG, Hyun (60%-70%). There are too many players that have good winrate against Terran, and most of them didn't contribue significant number of games to count as outliners. Among the Zerg there're only 2 players that contribute good number of games vT, such as Coca (14-5 73% winrate), and Nestea (4-9, 30%). But comparing between Coca's winnrate and others, he doesn't have any significant winrate that can be counted as outliner. On the other hand, Nestea can be counted as outliner because his winrrate was significantly lower than the rest of the Zerg. But that just proved that if you took Nestea out, ZvT winrate should even be higher.
So it's ok to remove Taeja and Gumiho but not coca because his win-rate is not different enough from other zergs? You do realize that there are other Terran who do very well right? Mkp went 8-3 in july, hack 8-4, mma 6-1, heart 7-2,polt, reality,etc
And you don't get to just remove the guys who win a lot, you also have to take out those who lose a lot, in both races, every month, so for example in june, remove symbol,etc.
Not sure if serious... In Korean TLPD July TvZ, MKP was 4-1, MMA 2-5, Hack 6-6, Heart 6-5, Reality 1-0 (yes qualifier games doesn't count as usual, so his win against Symbol and Shine are not counted)...
And to qualify as outliners, you have to have: + A good number of games + A significant win/lose rate than the rest. People like Hack and Heart had good number of games, but their winrate isn't much different with the rest of the Terran, so... Same with Coca, he had 73% winrate, but it's not that impressive compared to the rest, you had a bunch of Zerg that had winrate hover around 100%-60% too. Coca is just kind of medium...
And in June, Symbol ZvT was 65% winrate or something, not that impressive... Remember that although people like Symbol win bo3 series a lot, but if you win 2-1 all the time, your winrate will always hover around 66%.
On August 09 2012 07:51 derpinator wrote: 55.7% international winrate for zerg in TVZ is not close to 50.
The funny thing is that it includes the 50% TvZ winrate from korea. Poor foreign terrans .
Yea this game favors zerg in ZVT slightly only if the terran practice his game 12 hours a day. All the other terrans have to listen to zerg players say l2p and calling them noobs while they get annihilated in lategame because they dont have 300+ APM. Just think how succesfull the top terrans would be if they switched race.
On August 09 2012 07:51 derpinator wrote: 55.7% international winrate for zerg in TVZ is not close to 50.
The funny thing is that it includes the 50% TvZ winrate from korea. Poor foreign terrans .
Yea this game favors zerg in ZVT slightly only if the terran practice his game 12 hours a day. All the other terrans have to listen to zerg players say l2p and calling them noobs while they get annihilated in lategame because they dont have 300+ APM. Just think how succesfull the top terrans would be if they switched race.
Do you think the top zergs play less hours? If you are a top korean, then the game is balanced for you, therefore a racee switch wouldn't help the top korean terrans.
On August 09 2012 04:29 FabledIntegral wrote: How is ease to play relevant in the scenario at the top? Just because a race is easier to play does not make it inherently stronger.
For example, although we all know APM isn't a direct correlation to skill/performance, let's say it was and by some ungodly scenario it could be with objective numbers.
Say Terran benefits most from APM increases. A Terran with 150 APM might have a skill/performance of "75". A Terran with 250 APM might have a skill/performance of 90, and a Terran with 350 APM might have a skill/performance of 95.
At the same time, a Zerg with 150 APM might be able to perform at a skill level of 85. A Zerg with 250 APM might be able to perform at a skill/performance of 93, and a Zerg with 350 APM might have a skill/performance of 95.
Assuming there is no benefit to going beyond 350 APM (for simplicity's sake), we could say that TvZ is balanced at the highest level, yet anywhere below the highest level Zerg is going to perform much better than Terran. It's easier to play at a lower level. This does NOT affect the top tier you mentioned, such as Nestea, DRG, etc. It only affects those below. Zerg at the very top might be just as hard to play as Terran, it's just that it's a lot easier to get "near" the top with Zerg and much less skill than with Terran.
Hopefully that made sense, no time to edit since my lunch break just ended.
On August 09 2012 07:51 derpinator wrote: 55.7% international winrate for zerg in TVZ is not close to 50.
The funny thing is that it includes the 50% TvZ winrate from korea. Poor foreign terrans .
Yea this game favors zerg in ZVT slightly only if the terran practice his game 12 hours a day. All the other terrans have to listen to zerg players say l2p and calling them noobs while they get annihilated in lategame because they dont have 300+ APM. Just think how succesfull the top terrans would be if they switched race.
Well, terrans are the best players in the world, after all. They are drawn to the race with the highest potential and difficulty. It a huge problem for balancing the game, since the terran win rates have always been inflated by these juggernauts of talent. It is only natural that the race has now been over nerfed because Blizzard has mistaken this raw skill for an imbalance in the game. Hopefully they will figure it out soon and revert some of the most recent nerfs.
On August 09 2012 06:29 zmansman17 wrote: International Terran is still so bad.
As for Korea, I think if you don't have Gumiho or Taeja TvZ is still below what it should be considering all of the other best players in the world who play Terran and only boast >50% TvZ win rates.
How about we removing every terran win this month. OMG ZERG 100% winrate, imbalance! You can't just remove stats to fit your need.
On August 09 2012 01:04 canikizu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:18 lichter wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:13 canikizu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:00 Pazuzu wrote:
On August 08 2012 23:55 canikizu wrote:
On August 08 2012 23:45 ELA wrote: KR TvZ winrate explained:
July games v. Z: 10 wins, 1 loss (90.91% winrate)
You forgot Gumiho vs Zerg 12-3 (80% winrate)
These two alone skew the Terran winrate like 10% or something.
2 players out of how many in korea? skew a winrate 10%? sorry but the math nowhere near checks out
there're 321 Korean games, so essentially 3 games ~ 1% if Taeja and Gumiho only won half of their game (Taeja lose 4 more, Gumiho lose 4 more), that were ~ 3% more for Zerg and 3% less for Terran, and ZvT in Korea would be 53%-47%. Oh hey, that's not nice anymore.
You can't pick stats like this, because it becomes meaningless.
If you suggest that, then what about removing the two Zergs with the best ZvT as well?
And then the cycle continues. Really bad terrans or really bad zergs skewing the numbers. Meaningless arguments because removing all outliers will leave you with the median or mean, more or less. Back to square one.
Yes you can pick stats like that. That's the very basic fundamental when you look at chart and statistic. If you trade stock and stuff, and you don't know the source of why the that stock is flying so high, you will get perceived and get burn.
The reasons Taeja and Gumiho are counted as outliners because they contributed a significant number of games in TvZ, and have siginicant higher win rate than other Terran. Now compared to Zerg players, we have Leenock, Curious, Symbol (100% winrate), Horror (80%), Shine, Life, Sniper, Losira, DRG, Hyun (60%-70%). There are too many players that have good winrate against Terran, and most of them didn't contribue significant number of games to count as outliners. Among the Zerg there're only 2 players that contribute good number of games vT, such as Coca (14-5 73% winrate), and Nestea (4-9, 30%). But comparing between Coca's winnrate and others, he doesn't have any significant winrate that can be counted as outliner. On the other hand, Nestea can be counted as outliner because his winrrate was significantly lower than the rest of the Zerg. But that just proved that if you took Nestea out, ZvT winrate should even be higher.
So it's ok to remove Taeja and Gumiho but not coca because his win-rate is not different enough from other zergs? You do realize that there are other Terran who do very well right? Mkp went 8-3 in july, hack 8-4, mma 6-1, heart 7-2,polt, reality,etc
And you don't get to just remove the guys who win a lot, you also have to take out those who lose a lot, in both races, every month, so for example in june, remove symbol,etc.
Not sure if serious... In Korean TLPD July TvZ, MKP was 4-1, MMA 2-5, Hack 6-6, Heart 6-5, Reality 1-0 (yes qualifier games doesn't count as usual, so his win against Symbol and Shine are not counted)...
And to qualify as outliners, you have to have: + A good number of games + A significant win/lose rate than the rest. People like Hack and Heart had good number of games, but their winrate isn't much different with the rest of the Terran, so... Same with Coca, he had 73% winrate, but it's not that impressive compared to the rest, you had a bunch of Zerg that had winrate hover around 100%-60% too. Coca is just kind of medium...
And in June, Symbol ZvT was 65% winrate or something, not that impressive... Remember that although people like Symbol win bo3 series a lot, but if you win 2-1 all the time, your winrate will always hover around 66%.
Wait those charts don't take into account the wcs and wcg qualifiers? How the fuck did they get those winrates for terran? My bad, you can do your magic with removing players,etc but please add to that the fact that in wcg and wcs qualifiers, terran went 58-41 in Bo3 series and 134-109 in maps so a 55% winrate on 243 games.
So in the end, if you added those results to the TLPD ones you would get a 52,3 winrate for terran on 564 games.
On August 09 2012 06:29 zmansman17 wrote: International Terran is still so bad.
As for Korea, I think if you don't have Gumiho or Taeja TvZ is still below what it should be considering all of the other best players in the world who play Terran and only boast >50% TvZ win rates.
How about we removing every terran win this month. OMG ZERG 100% winrate, imbalance! You can't just remove stats to fit your need.
On August 09 2012 01:04 canikizu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:18 lichter wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:13 canikizu wrote:
On August 09 2012 00:00 Pazuzu wrote:
On August 08 2012 23:55 canikizu wrote:
On August 08 2012 23:45 ELA wrote: KR TvZ winrate explained:
July games v. Z: 10 wins, 1 loss (90.91% winrate)
You forgot Gumiho vs Zerg 12-3 (80% winrate)
These two alone skew the Terran winrate like 10% or something.
2 players out of how many in korea? skew a winrate 10%? sorry but the math nowhere near checks out
there're 321 Korean games, so essentially 3 games ~ 1% if Taeja and Gumiho only won half of their game (Taeja lose 4 more, Gumiho lose 4 more), that were ~ 3% more for Zerg and 3% less for Terran, and ZvT in Korea would be 53%-47%. Oh hey, that's not nice anymore.
You can't pick stats like this, because it becomes meaningless.
If you suggest that, then what about removing the two Zergs with the best ZvT as well?
And then the cycle continues. Really bad terrans or really bad zergs skewing the numbers. Meaningless arguments because removing all outliers will leave you with the median or mean, more or less. Back to square one.
Yes you can pick stats like that. That's the very basic fundamental when you look at chart and statistic. If you trade stock and stuff, and you don't know the source of why the that stock is flying so high, you will get perceived and get burn.
The reasons Taeja and Gumiho are counted as outliners because they contributed a significant number of games in TvZ, and have siginicant higher win rate than other Terran. Now compared to Zerg players, we have Leenock, Curious, Symbol (100% winrate), Horror (80%), Shine, Life, Sniper, Losira, DRG, Hyun (60%-70%). There are too many players that have good winrate against Terran, and most of them didn't contribue significant number of games to count as outliners. Among the Zerg there're only 2 players that contribute good number of games vT, such as Coca (14-5 73% winrate), and Nestea (4-9, 30%). But comparing between Coca's winnrate and others, he doesn't have any significant winrate that can be counted as outliner. On the other hand, Nestea can be counted as outliner because his winrrate was significantly lower than the rest of the Zerg. But that just proved that if you took Nestea out, ZvT winrate should even be higher.
So it's ok to remove Taeja and Gumiho but not coca because his win-rate is not different enough from other zergs? You do realize that there are other Terran who do very well right? Mkp went 8-3 in july, hack 8-4, mma 6-1, heart 7-2,polt, reality,etc
And you don't get to just remove the guys who win a lot, you also have to take out those who lose a lot, in both races, every month, so for example in june, remove symbol,etc.
Not sure if serious... In Korean TLPD July TvZ, MKP was 4-1, MMA 2-5, Hack 6-6, Heart 6-5, Reality 1-0 (yes qualifier games doesn't count as usual, so his win against Symbol and Shine are not counted)...
And to qualify as outliners, you have to have: + A good number of games + A significant win/lose rate than the rest. People like Hack and Heart had good number of games, but their winrate isn't much different with the rest of the Terran, so... Same with Coca, he had 73% winrate, but it's not that impressive compared to the rest, you had a bunch of Zerg that had winrate hover around 100%-60% too. Coca is just kind of medium...
And in June, Symbol ZvT was 65% winrate or something, not that impressive... Remember that although people like Symbol win bo3 series a lot, but if you win 2-1 all the time, your winrate will always hover around 66%.
Wait those charts don't take into account the wcs and wcg qualifiers? How the fuck did they get those winrates for terran? My bad, you can do your magic with removing players,etc but please add to that the fact that in wcg and wcs qualifiers, terran went 58-41 in Bo3 series and 134-109 in maps so a 55% winrate on 243 games.
So in the end, if you added those results to the TLPD ones you would get a 52,3 winrate for terran on 564 games.
It's been discussed to death last month already. Remember last month, Terran said why TSL qualifiers didn't count in May, June winrate? because if it were counted, Terran winrate would be more horrible.
It's been like this forever. Qualifiers and Open Bracket don't make it to TLPD because they consist a ton of games from teamless people and people with huge different in skills(pro Korean vs NA mid diamond), no matter if it's TSL4, MLG, IPL, Playhem, ESV..v..v.v. WCS and WCG are not exceptions.
On August 09 2012 04:29 FabledIntegral wrote: How is ease to play relevant in the scenario at the top? Just because a race is easier to play does not make it inherently stronger.
For example, although we all know APM isn't a direct correlation to skill/performance, let's say it was and by some ungodly scenario it could be with objective numbers.
Say Terran benefits most from APM increases. A Terran with 150 APM might have a skill/performance of "75". A Terran with 250 APM might have a skill/performance of 90, and a Terran with 350 APM might have a skill/performance of 95.
At the same time, a Zerg with 150 APM might be able to perform at a skill level of 85. A Zerg with 250 APM might be able to perform at a skill/performance of 93, and a Zerg with 350 APM might have a skill/performance of 95.
Assuming there is no benefit to going beyond 350 APM (for simplicity's sake), we could say that TvZ is balanced at the highest level, yet anywhere below the highest level Zerg is going to perform much better than Terran. It's easier to play at a lower level. This does NOT affect the top tier you mentioned, such as Nestea, DRG, etc. It only affects those below. Zerg at the very top might be just as hard to play as Terran, it's just that it's a lot easier to get "near" the top with Zerg and much less skill than with Terran.
Hopefully that made sense, no time to edit since my lunch break just ended.
On August 08 2012 23:36 ELA wrote: Note that TaeJa is carrying the Korean Terran TLPD :D
What are you talking about? Taeja exited the GSL early. How could he carry Korean terrans but not Byun, the last terran standing? Most of Taeja's games were in foreign tournaments.
On August 08 2012 23:36 ELA wrote: Note that TaeJa is carrying the Korean Terran TLPD :D
What are you talking about? Taeja exited the GSL early. How could he carry Korean terrans but not Byun, the last terran standing? Most of Taeja's games were in foreign tournaments.
He supposedly went 10-1 in TvZ in July for Korean TLPD.
On August 08 2012 23:36 ELA wrote: Note that TaeJa is carrying the Korean Terran TLPD :D
What are you talking about? Taeja exited the GSL early. How could he carry Korean terrans but not Byun, the last terran standing? Most of Taeja's games were in foreign tournaments.
On August 09 2012 13:48 ETisME wrote: why doesn't anyone comment on the PvT and PvZ where P clearly is doing better in both korea and internationally by quite a fairly large margin
because is 45%-55% ( so it's balanced), international winrate is zerg favoured, korean stats are worst ( less games) and pvz is a MU where 90% of the games are all-in and nobody give a s*** about it
When people say that top Terran are much better players than Zerg/Protoss overall but barely win because the game is imbalance, everyone is like "Oh stop with that, this argument is stupid !". Then, two posts later you read stuff like "If international Terran have a 45% winrate, it's because they suck" ...
Or few people saying that the TvZ matchup is Terran FAVORED in Korea because the ratio is 50.2/49.8, but when it was 47/53, it was perfectly fine and balanced !
Or few people saying that the TvZ matchup is Terran FAVORED in Korea because the ratio is 50.2/49.8, but when it was 47/53, it was perfectly fine and balanced !
According to Terran the game was also balanced Sept - Feb and Zerg players just have to l2p, so dont give to much credit to these discussions. If the graph doesnt support your biased opinion, pick one or more:
a) to small sample size b) doesnt contain all tournaments c) X players carry the whole race d) he must made that up e) Thats because they only all-in f) my stomach tells otherwise!
My stomach tells that, that TvZ is pretty well balanced at the highest level and watching guys like Teaja and Gumiho play feels quite heartwarming for every terran player.
But take a step or two back (skillwise) and it is a total disaster. I've been following weekly EU tournaments like Go4SC2 and Pokerstrategy for some time now. These things turned into ugly PvZ / ZvZ fests. Whenever some terran makes it high into the bracket the audience acts really confused, stating things like: "wow, there are 3 races in SC2?".
If you follow more of the SC2 scene than just the very top of it you can see that some things just do not work out all that great.
On August 09 2012 16:33 Charon1979 wrote: If the graph doesnt support your biased opinion, pick one or more:
b) doesnt contain all tournaments
well, yes, the most important tournament missing from tlpd is the code a qualifier, which is understandable, due to that there only incomplete data about it
look at what happened in the code a ro48. 10 zergs and only 4 terrans qualified, whereupon most of the 10 zergs promptly got smacked down by code s caliber players. bomber vs freaky is a particularly enlightening series, because freaky played terrible relative to what you'd expect a GM KR player to look like and still proved insanely difficult to break
let's see what happens in up and down this season, as it's going to involve a bunch of well established terrans and a bunch of relatively unestablished zergs
On August 09 2012 07:51 derpinator wrote: 55.7% international winrate for zerg in TVZ is not close to 50.
The funny thing is that it includes the 50% TvZ winrate from korea. Poor foreign terrans .
Yep, lest us not forget that it even includes the Koreans
Yes, Korean zergs as well as terrans. Point?
You seem a bit on the slower side, so I'll explain.
International TvZ has korean TvZ stats into it, yet it's still at 45/55.
Korean TvZ is boosting international TvZ to the 45/55 that we see. If korean stats weren't there to boost the matchup percentages in favor of terran, the difference would be even larger by several percentage units.
Thus, terran is even weaker internationally/terran players are even worse internationally than the stats show (and korean terrans are even more amazing than we previously thought.)
On August 09 2012 07:51 derpinator wrote: 55.7% international winrate for zerg in TVZ is not close to 50.
The funny thing is that it includes the 50% TvZ winrate from korea. Poor foreign terrans .
Yep, lest us not forget that it even includes the Koreans
Yes, Korean zergs as well as terrans. Point?
Because foreign are filled with Zerg and Protoss, if a Korean Zerg comes, he will play ZvZ ZvP a lot, which doesn't really affect ZvT that much. But if a Korean Terran comes, he will play TvZ and TvP a lot, which he will win and effectively boost TvZ, TvP international winrate, which looks bad for foreign Terran.
Or few people saying that the TvZ matchup is Terran FAVORED in Korea because the ratio is 50.2/49.8, but when it was 47/53, it was perfectly fine and balanced !
According to Terran the game was also balanced Sept - Feb and Zerg players just have to l2p
Oh I forgot that terrans across the world communicate through hive mind and that any opinion expressed by a single platinum terran player on a forum is actually the will of the Terran Collective. Silly me.
It's a little bit of an indictment against our community that these figures are still used to argue balance over. I thought the discussion on how silly that is was over ages ago?
On August 09 2012 07:51 derpinator wrote: 55.7% international winrate for zerg in TVZ is not close to 50.
The funny thing is that it includes the 50% TvZ winrate from korea. Poor foreign terrans .
Yep, lest us not forget that it even includes the Koreans
Yes, Korean zergs as well as terrans. Point?
You seem a bit on the slower side, so I'll explain.
International TvZ has korean TvZ stats into it, yet it's still at 45/55.
Korean TvZ is boosting international TvZ to the 45/55 that we see. If korean stats weren't there to boost the matchup percentages in favor of terran, the difference would be even larger by several percentage units.
Thus, terran is even weaker internationally/terran players are even worse internationally than the stats show (and korean terrans are even more amazing than we previously thought.)
You seem a bit on the slow side, so I'll explain: That doesnt fucking matter. International stats are literally irrelevant, they take in low masters all the way up to top korean players and all the lopsided results inbetween. We cant assume that kor tvz=50:50, that when brought into the equation they go 50:50 and thus increase or decrease the total result. Koreans play in both major and minor tournaments against good and bad players, some being knocked out early by protoss and others playing a series of mirrors; their results in any given month will be heavily dependent on who they reach within the bracket.
So the stats as a whole are not reliable, nor are the korean influence on them predictable. This is self evident.
On August 09 2012 07:51 derpinator wrote: 55.7% international winrate for zerg in TVZ is not close to 50.
The funny thing is that it includes the 50% TvZ winrate from korea. Poor foreign terrans .
Yep, lest us not forget that it even includes the Koreans
Yes, Korean zergs as well as terrans. Point?
You seem a bit on the slower side, so I'll explain.
International TvZ has korean TvZ stats into it, yet it's still at 45/55.
Korean TvZ is boosting international TvZ to the 45/55 that we see. If korean stats weren't there to boost the matchup percentages in favor of terran, the difference would be even larger by several percentage units.
Thus, terran is even weaker internationally/terran players are even worse internationally than the stats show (and korean terrans are even more amazing than we previously thought.)
You seem a bit on the slow side, so I'll explain: That doesnt fucking matter. International stats are literally irrelevant, they take in low masters all the way up to top korean players and all the lopsided results inbetween. We cant assume that kor tvz=50:50, that when brought into the equation they go 50:50 and thus increase or decrease the total result. Koreans play in both major and minor tournaments against good and bad players, some being knocked out early by protoss and others playing a series of mirrors; their results in any given month will be heavily dependent on who they reach within the bracket.
So the stats as a whole are not reliable, nor are the korean influence on them predictable. This is self evident.
What are you even on about? I haven't argued whether the stats are relevant or not. Simply that the korean stats themselves in the TLPD are part of the international stats unless I've been misinformed. If this is the case, international TvZ without the korean TLPD stats baked into it are worse off in terrans favor than the international graph shows. Whether that's because korean zergs played and dominated NA terrans this time around or not is not part of the argument.
On August 09 2012 07:51 derpinator wrote: 55.7% international winrate for zerg in TVZ is not close to 50.
The funny thing is that it includes the 50% TvZ winrate from korea. Poor foreign terrans .
Yep, lest us not forget that it even includes the Koreans
Yes, Korean zergs as well as terrans. Point?
You seem a bit on the slower side, so I'll explain.
International TvZ has korean TvZ stats into it, yet it's still at 45/55.
Korean TvZ is boosting international TvZ to the 45/55 that we see. If korean stats weren't there to boost the matchup percentages in favor of terran, the difference would be even larger by several percentage units.
Thus, terran is even weaker internationally/terran players are even worse internationally than the stats show (and korean terrans are even more amazing than we previously thought.)
You seem a bit on the slow side, so I'll explain: That doesnt fucking matter. International stats are literally irrelevant, they take in low masters all the way up to top korean players and all the lopsided results inbetween. We cant assume that kor tvz=50:50, that when brought into the equation they go 50:50 and thus increase or decrease the total result. Koreans play in both major and minor tournaments against good and bad players, some being knocked out early by protoss and others playing a series of mirrors; their results in any given month will be heavily dependent on who they reach within the bracket.
So the stats as a whole are not reliable, nor are the korean influence on them predictable. This is self evident.
How are they not predictable? If what Dalvita is saying is correct, it should be really simple.
lol @ fun fact. If you take Stephano out of internation results i bet the PvZ is bigger etcetc.
Terran didn't know how to handle 5/6 queen builds Zerg through at them end of june, begining of july, now they are doing fine, it's pretty balanced imo.
All match ups look balanced to me, with maybe PvT still needed to be looked at, but i think 52% winrate is ok, but may need effecting if goes any higher
the problem with this so called balance is that the player that makes more mistakes should be the one that loses the game.
But with terran there's a greater chance that you make a mistake that causes you to lose the game because the race is harder to play. A simple example of this would be the micro required in a typical fight. Look at what the terran has to do compared to what a zerg or toss has to do. Terrans have to do more during the fight, and only the koreans are capable of doing that plus macroing.
The balance I want to see is something that forces zergs or tosses to do more during the game. An example of this would be replacing the colossus with reaver, meaning instead of a-moving colossi, they would be dropping reavers from warp prisms. Obviously the metagame would change since colossi is such a huge part of the toss army, but that's beside the point. Such a change would require tosses to micro more during the fight.
On August 09 2012 07:51 derpinator wrote: 55.7% international winrate for zerg in TVZ is not close to 50.
The funny thing is that it includes the 50% TvZ winrate from korea. Poor foreign terrans .
Yep, lest us not forget that it even includes the Koreans
Yes, Korean zergs as well as terrans. Point?
You seem a bit on the slower side, so I'll explain.
International TvZ has korean TvZ stats into it, yet it's still at 45/55.
Korean TvZ is boosting international TvZ to the 45/55 that we see. If korean stats weren't there to boost the matchup percentages in favor of terran, the difference would be even larger by several percentage units.
Thus, terran is even weaker internationally/terran players are even worse internationally than the stats show (and korean terrans are even more amazing than we previously thought.)
You seem a bit on the slow side, so I'll explain: That doesnt fucking matter. International stats are literally irrelevant, they take in low masters all the way up to top korean players and all the lopsided results inbetween. We cant assume that kor tvz=50:50, that when brought into the equation they go 50:50 and thus increase or decrease the total result. Koreans play in both major and minor tournaments against good and bad players, some being knocked out early by protoss and others playing a series of mirrors; their results in any given month will be heavily dependent on who they reach within the bracket.
So the stats as a whole are not reliable, nor are the korean influence on them predictable. This is self evident.
Dont realyy know what are you trying to sayt but few facts: Korean TvZ is 50% International TvZ is 44,7% and this includes results from Korea
Excluding Korean data from International graph we have 40,7% TvZ - Its Terran winratio in tournament TvZ played outside of Korea in July 2012(includes Koreans playing in foreign tournaments).
On August 10 2012 04:03 IMPrime wrote: the problem with this so called balance is that the player that makes more mistakes should be the one that loses the game.
But with terran there's a greater chance that you make a mistake that causes you to lose the game because the race is harder to play. A simple example of this would be the micro required in a typical fight. Look at what the terran has to do compared to what a zerg or toss has to do. Terrans have to do more during the fight, and only the koreans are capable of doing that plus macroing.
The balance I want to see is something that forces zergs or tosses to do more during the game. An example of this would be replacing the colossus with reaver, meaning instead of a-moving colossi, they would be dropping reavers from warp prisms. Obviously the metagame would change since colossi is such a huge part of the toss army, but that's beside the point. Such a change would require tosses to micro more during the fight.
You do realize that protoss has to move the screen to a pylon and place EVERY SINGLE warp gate unit all game, while zerg and terran can do their production only using hotkeys. Also using apm to place EVERY crono on specific buildings all game. There is no trick like with injects to do these automatically using just hotkeys. What does Terran have that's equivalent to this? "E clicking" on minerals to drop mules is easier to do compared to crono or warp ins.
Protoss has to use FF's all game or zerg/ terran will roll them with an a move, if protoss gets caught with there screen in the wrong place to do warp ins and terran runs in close to the protoss army with stim, it's GG. Same thing happens if you let roach ling get on top of your army. Also, many top protoss are using prisms to pick up and drop wounded immortals vs zerg. Because when protoss does a 2 base immortal timing, zerg is hitting their 3 base timing. Even with some amazing FF's and keeping immortals alive using prisms, it barely succeeds.
I'm fine with the way things are, my point is that you need to look at the broader picture when it comes to "how hard a race is to play". Protoss's macro is very apm and multitask intensive. Protoss's army is extremely weak without good positioning and FF's.
The problem with terran is that their late game is so shitty that they HAVE to do some econ damage or tech sniping in the mid/early game, otherwise they get rolled in the late game because they are still relying on tier 1 units as the backbone of their army. Toss and Zerg have gotten very good at pre positioning units and getting map vision to deny terran harass.
Terran just doesn't have good options for mid/late game units that can be massed, and not easily hard countered. Another thing that makes terrans late game so weak is that the same units that are good vs MMM are good vs mech units, such as chargelots, immortals, templar, colossus. For zerg muta ling can work vs bio or mech, and late game BL Infestor will smash mech or bio.
This is what needs to change, terran needs better tier 2 and 3, massable units that can't be hard countered with the same units that you want to beat terran bio with. But the way terran was designed with the add on swapping, terrans can rush to any unit in their arsenal. So over the course of Sc2's life we've seen the repeated nerfing of their tech because terrans tier 2 or 3 units are so hard to handle if they are rushed out.
I agree there are some issues with terran's gameplay, I just disagree with where the problem lies.
I think there are serious game play issues with PvZ right now too. If you look at what protoss players have to do to beat the stephano build, they have to out play the zerg SOOOO hard and still barely comes out on top. This is versus zergs who literally make 3 bases and nothing but drones in the early game, then just spam out roach ling in mid game while teching to GGlords/infestor. The protoss knows how zerg is going open and proceed before the game even starts and any option protoss uses, to try and kill zerg before the BL's come out, is a coin flip.
If you watch any top protoss player right now, they are literally winning by crossing their fingers and cutting corners. Zerg players just really not abusing the game play issues in pvz to the fullest. The way most protoss players are forge expanding is not safe at all, if zergs make a few early lings and position overlords better, they can easily deny the protoss any scouting. Many of the best protoss players would die to a zerg that cuts drones soon after the 3rd is down and masses roaches. Because at that point in time warp isn't close to being done, there is probably 1 (maybe 2) sentries out and a single cannon. Roaches can break this if they just back up every time good FF's are placed and run protoss out of FF's. Also, the way protoss are walling with the forge expand (on some maps) there is literally no way for them to place pylons around their main to get full vision. Which means a fast speedling nydus into the main would kill the main almost every time.
The fact is that in PvZ protoss are only doing as good as they are because zergs are not abusing the meta game, so protoss players are able to cut corners every game. If zergs were using the strategies I'm suggesting more, protoss players would have to spend more money to get vision of their entire main in order to be safe from fast ling nydus, have to make more cannons to be safe from early roach busts. Also, realize that if a protoss spreads his pylons out in the main Muta harass become much harder to deal with, because there are so many pylons to snipe. Basically, if protoss players were being punished more for cutting so many corners before warp gate finishes, they would not be able to hit the 2 base timings they are currently using to stay alive in the matchup. This alone would make the Stephano build MUCH stronger. Most protoss are even going Nexus first, you realize if the zerg makes a bunch of lings they can just do a run by and win right there?
I may be biased in my opinion as a toss player, but I think PvZ is actually in a much worse state than results are reflecting. Mostly because zergs don't understand the protoss side of the matchup, and they don't realize how greatly protoss's are cutting corners in the early game.
All this graph tells me is that the best of the best Terran players in Korea are able to scrape by with a 50% TvZ against mediocre zergs while the rest of the Terrans around the globe struggle to win games.
Now, does this mean the game is balanced at the highest level or does it mean the very best korean terrans in the world are able to overcome the disadvantages of TvZ(while only managing 50% win rate) that their foreign counterpart are not able to????? You tell me.
Omg both posters above me Jesus do both of you have no idea what you are talking about. Especially reborn. I think it's funny how pointless posting these stats are now because every time it's same hint x race qqs bout balance and other race tells them they don't know how to play right lol.
On August 10 2012 05:40 blamekilly wrote: All this graph tells me is that the best of the best Terran players in Korea are able to scrape by with a 50% TvZ against mediocre zergs while the rest of the Terrans around the globe struggle to win games.
Now, does this mean the game is balanced at the highest level or does it mean the very best korean terrans in the world are able to overcome the disadvantages of TvZ(while only managing 50% win rate) that their foreign counterpart are not able to????? You tell me.
At what winrate between zergs and terrans in Korea would you say we have a balanced game? 55-45 for terran? 60-40 perhaps?
Take a step back and look at what you're writing. Why exactly are the Korean matches played between 'very best korean terrans' and 'mediocre zergs'. Aren't they just matches between Korean terrans and Korean zergs?
On August 10 2012 05:40 blamekilly wrote: All this graph tells me is that the best of the best Terran players in Korea are able to scrape by with a 50% TvZ against mediocre zergs while the rest of the Terrans around the globe struggle to win games.
Now, does this mean the game is balanced at the highest level or does it mean the very best korean terrans in the world are able to overcome the disadvantages of TvZ(while only managing 50% win rate) that their foreign counterpart are not able to????? You tell me.
lol - the bias is strong in this one
Basically all the top zergs are medicore? :p
Stop complaining. The game is ridiculously well balanced compare to anything else out there.
On August 10 2012 05:40 blamekilly wrote: All this graph tells me is that the best of the best Terran players in Korea are able to scrape by with a 50% TvZ against mediocre zergs while the rest of the Terrans around the globe struggle to win games.
Now, does this mean the game is balanced at the highest level or does it mean the very best korean terrans in the world are able to overcome the disadvantages of TvZ(while only managing 50% win rate) that their foreign counterpart are not able to????? You tell me.
All your post tells me is that you can't read a graph.
On August 10 2012 05:40 blamekilly wrote: All this graph tells me is that the best of the best Terran players in Korea are able to scrape by with a 50% TvZ against mediocre zergs while the rest of the Terrans around the globe struggle to win games.
Now, does this mean the game is balanced at the highest level or does it mean the very best korean terrans in the world are able to overcome the disadvantages of TvZ(while only managing 50% win rate) that their foreign counterpart are not able to????? You tell me.
lol - the bias is strong in this one
Basically all the top zergs are medicore? :p
Stop complaining. The game is ridiculously well balanced compare to anything else out there.
On August 10 2012 05:40 blamekilly wrote: All this graph tells me is that the best of the best Terran players in Korea are able to scrape by with a 50% TvZ against mediocre zergs while the rest of the Terrans around the globe struggle to win games.
Now, does this mean the game is balanced at the highest level or does it mean the very best korean terrans in the world are able to overcome the disadvantages of TvZ(while only managing 50% win rate) that their foreign counterpart are not able to????? You tell me.
At what winrate between zergs and terrans in Korea would you say we have a balanced game? 55-45 for terran? 60-40 perhaps?
Take a step back and look at what you're writing. Why exactly are the Korean matches played between 'very best korean terrans' and 'mediocre zergs'. Aren't they just matches between Korean terrans and Korean zergs?
This is the best. Korean terrans are really should be losing, but terrible the zergs were terrible this month. Or they were always terrible and were just extra terrible this month for no reason.
I wonder how many months in a row we are going to have to do this. How long do you thing people will continue to blame the game and claim that they need 20000 apm just to stand a chance against the opponent of another race? Do you think after 9 months of nearly 50/50 win rates that people take responsibility for their losses? A year? Ever?
Good players find ways to win even when their race has been turned into a flaming pile of poo. Regardless of whether you think the game is fair you can keep finding ways to win. Just to take a quick jab at the Blizz balance team real quick though.\, If you play terran and you DO find some nice new tricks you best use them quickly because we all know it won't last long before they nerf it.
Korean Terrans will win no matter what given enough time because Terran was the most intricately designed in Wings of Liberty. As for the rest of us foreigner Terrans, there isn't much hope. The game will always be balanced on the MVPs, the Taejas, the MKP's, etc who will win regardless of balance because their skill and the wider array of options available compared to Zerg or Protoss. The best we can do is ride along and hope a huge influx of amazingly talented Protoss and Zerg users dominate in HOTS and LOTV so that they too can feel the weight of having the best players penalize everyone else.
On August 09 2012 07:51 derpinator wrote: 55.7% international winrate for zerg in TVZ is not close to 50.
The funny thing is that it includes the 50% TvZ winrate from korea. Poor foreign terrans .
Yea this game favors zerg in ZVT slightly only if the terran practice his game 12 hours a day. All the other terrans have to listen to zerg players say l2p and calling them noobs while they get annihilated in lategame because they dont have 300+ APM. Just think how succesfull the top terrans would be if they switched race.
Well, terrans are the best players in the world, after all. They are drawn to the race with the highest potential and difficulty. It a huge problem for balancing the game, since the terran win rates have always been inflated by these juggernauts of talent. It is only natural that the race has now been over nerfed because Blizzard has mistaken this raw skill for an imbalance in the game. Hopefully they will figure it out soon and revert some of the most recent nerfs.
This is what I have always thought about the way Blizzard is balancing the game. And this is why I still haven't switched from playing random to Terran. I think it's the funniest way to play Starcraft but it's just sooo much harder to succeed than with Zerg or Protoss. When I finally get the cool Banshee picture reward I will probably stick with Protoss, hahah.
On August 09 2012 07:51 derpinator wrote: 55.7% international winrate for zerg in TVZ is not close to 50.
The funny thing is that it includes the 50% TvZ winrate from korea. Poor foreign terrans .
Yea this game favors zerg in ZVT slightly only if the terran practice his game 12 hours a day. All the other terrans have to listen to zerg players say l2p and calling them noobs while they get annihilated in lategame because they dont have 300+ APM. Just think how succesfull the top terrans would be if they switched race.
Well, terrans are the best players in the world, after all. They are drawn to the race with the highest potential and difficulty. It a huge problem for balancing the game, since the terran win rates have always been inflated by these juggernauts of talent. It is only natural that the race has now been over nerfed because Blizzard has mistaken this raw skill for an imbalance in the game. Hopefully they will figure it out soon and revert some of the most recent nerfs.
This is what I have always thought about the way Blizzard is balancing the game. And this is why I still haven't switched from playing random to Terran. I think it's the funniest way to play Starcraft but it's just sooo much harder to succeed than with Zerg or Protoss. When I finally get the cool Banshee picture reward I will probably stick with Protoss, hahah.
You gotta press on till 1000 man. That panda icon is B0$$ ^^
These are definitely some interesting stats. Nice to see that all of the matchups are pretty much where they should be. It is going to be interesting to see what happens when Blizz implements the new balance changes to Zerg and Terran. I don't think it will be too effective, however we will see.
On August 09 2012 07:51 derpinator wrote: 55.7% international winrate for zerg in TVZ is not close to 50.
The funny thing is that it includes the 50% TvZ winrate from korea. Poor foreign terrans .
Yea this game favors zerg in ZVT slightly only if the terran practice his game 12 hours a day. All the other terrans have to listen to zerg players say l2p and calling them noobs while they get annihilated in lategame because they dont have 300+ APM. Just think how succesfull the top terrans would be if they switched race.
Well, terrans are the best players in the world, after all. They are drawn to the race with the highest potential and difficulty. It a huge problem for balancing the game, since the terran win rates have always been inflated by these juggernauts of talent. It is only natural that the race has now been over nerfed because Blizzard has mistaken this raw skill for an imbalance in the game. Hopefully they will figure it out soon and revert some of the most recent nerfs.
This is what I have always thought about the way Blizzard is balancing the game. And this is why I still haven't switched from playing random to Terran. I think it's the funniest way to play Starcraft but it's just sooo much harder to succeed than with Zerg or Protoss. When I finally get the cool Banshee picture reward I will probably stick with Protoss, hahah.
You gotta press on till 1000 man. That panda icon is B0$$ ^^
Maybe I'll do that, but it would mean to still choose no race, and I'm playing SC2 since early 2011 now. And I want to get into the Master league once, but I won't achieve that by playing random race. Just now it feels I'm close to getting demoted into platinum league again xD
On August 10 2012 06:56 R3DT1D3 wrote: Korean Terrans will win no matter what given enough time because Terran was the most intricately designed in Wings of Liberty. As for the rest of us foreigner Terrans, there isn't much hope. The game will always be balanced on the MVPs, the Taejas, the MKP's, etc who will win regardless of balance because their skill and the wider array of options available compared to Zerg or Protoss. The best we can do is ride along and hope a huge influx of amazingly talented Protoss and Zerg users dominate in HOTS and LOTV so that they too can feel the weight of having the best players penalize everyone else.
If by that argument you are not saying that terran players are necessarily better, but just have more options due to design i completly agree on this. Terran, though being a very hard race to play, has a great design which allows the players to win if playing at the highest level, even in case of an imbalance.
On August 10 2012 06:56 R3DT1D3 wrote: Korean Terrans will win no matter what given enough time because Terran was the most intricately designed in Wings of Liberty. As for the rest of us foreigner Terrans, there isn't much hope. The game will always be balanced on the MVPs, the Taejas, the MKP's, etc who will win regardless of balance because their skill and the wider array of options available compared to Zerg or Protoss. The best we can do is ride along and hope a huge influx of amazingly talented Protoss and Zerg users dominate in HOTS and LOTV so that they too can feel the weight of having the best players penalize everyone else.
If by that argument you are not saying that terran players are necessarily better, but just have more options due to design i completly agree on this. Terran, though being a very hard race to play, has a great design which allows the players to win if playing at the highest level, even in case of an imbalance.
It's just micro. The terran players that are still winning in korea are just waaaaaaaaaay out microing their opponents. Everyone acts as if terran is the only "flexible" race, that's just not true. In any case it's not really flexible anymore, now it's just boring.
On August 10 2012 keglu wrote: Dont realyy know what are you trying to sayt but few facts: Korean TvZ is 50% International TvZ is 44,7% and this includes results from Korea
Excluding Korean data from International graph we have 40,7% TvZ - Its Terran winratio in tournament TvZ played outside of Korea in July 2012(includes Koreans playing in foreign tournaments).
This.
On August 10 2012 Cereb wrote: Stop complaining. The game is ridiculously well balanced compare to anything else out there.
Win rates in small single elimination tournaments don't show too much. If you start with 8 T in a 32 person tourney, 6 get knocked out in the first round, 2 win, 2 make it to the semis and 1 wins the tourney, you get 7 T losses and 8 T wins, TERRAN IMBA.
Seeing how most of the Terran players have switched to another race lately (pretty obvious just by playing some ladder games) I'm not sure it matters how Terran fits into the balance picture.
On August 09 2012 00:05 Rannasha wrote: I feel that looking at the Korean numbers as an indication of the state of balance in the game is a bad idea. The sample size is simply too small. In addition, it would only make sense if the Korean top-talents happen to be equally distributed between T, P and Z. Right now the skill-difference between the absolute top players that are in shape and the weaker Code S and Code A players is quite big. And this has a big effect on the overall winrate for the race.
Right now Taeja is beasting it up, pushing up Terran winrates. Does that say anything about the Terran race as a whole? Nope. Just that Taeja is stupidly good at the moment. A while back DRG had a similar period, where he won almost everything and really pushed Zerg winrates. That too, didn't say anything about game balance and Zergs, just that DRG was playing very well.
If the aim is to balance for the best of the best, then winrate statistics are useless. The more you restrict your data-set to top players (e.g. restricting the overall international data to Korea only), the more the influence of dominant players will become noticeable in the winrates.
Note that Blizzards aim is not just to balance for Ro8 GSL calibre players. They want to keep the foreigner scene alive as well and keep B.net filled with lower league players. It's a difficult challenge.
Just how much sample size is enough? As far as I can see it, it's plenty enough with the number they got now.
And you also want to balance, not from the top ? That's a bad idea. You always want to balance game changes from the very top. And the very top is Korean scene right now.
On August 10 2012 05:40 blamekilly wrote: All this graph tells me is that the best of the best Terran players in Korea are able to scrape by with a 50% TvZ against mediocre zergs while the rest of the Terrans around the globe struggle to win games.
Now, does this mean the game is balanced at the highest level or does it mean the very best korean terrans in the world are able to overcome the disadvantages of TvZ(while only managing 50% win rate) that their foreign counterpart are not able to????? You tell me.
lol - the bias is strong in this one
Basically all the top zergs are medicore? :p
Stop complaining. The game is ridiculously well balanced compare to anything else out there.
Isn't it ironic that his name starts with the word 'blame'
On August 09 2012 00:05 Rannasha wrote: I feel that looking at the Korean numbers as an indication of the state of balance in the game is a bad idea. The sample size is simply too small. In addition, it would only make sense if the Korean top-talents happen to be equally distributed between T, P and Z. Right now the skill-difference between the absolute top players that are in shape and the weaker Code S and Code A players is quite big. And this has a big effect on the overall winrate for the race.
Right now Taeja is beasting it up, pushing up Terran winrates. Does that say anything about the Terran race as a whole? Nope. Just that Taeja is stupidly good at the moment. A while back DRG had a similar period, where he won almost everything and really pushed Zerg winrates. That too, didn't say anything about game balance and Zergs, just that DRG was playing very well.
If the aim is to balance for the best of the best, then winrate statistics are useless. The more you restrict your data-set to top players (e.g. restricting the overall international data to Korea only), the more the influence of dominant players will become noticeable in the winrates.
Note that Blizzards aim is not just to balance for Ro8 GSL calibre players. They want to keep the foreigner scene alive as well and keep B.net filled with lower league players. It's a difficult challenge.
Just how much sample size is enough? As far as I can see it, it's plenty enough with the number they got now.
And you also want to balance, not from the top ? That's a bad idea. You always want to balance game changes from the very top. And the very top is Korean scene right now.
Yeah, because the Queen buff was obviously aimed at high level players, and totally wasn't considered by DRG as rewarding lazy play, or anything.
Right? And Fruitdealer won GSL way back after release, so clearly Zerg wasn't underpowered back then. Right?
These win rates are just numbers right now. They don't offer any insight as to whether or not if these games are balanced. You need to at least compare them with the length of the game, a type of build being used, or the skill level of the players in their respective leagues.
Preferably, all 3. Not saying that it would be easy, but this data is just going to cause and endless debate on balance.
On August 09 2012 15:51 Kapouais wrote: Some comments here are incredible ... :D
When people say that top Terran are much better players than Zerg/Protoss overall but barely win because the game is imbalance, everyone is like "Oh stop with that, this argument is stupid !". Then, two posts later you read stuff like "If international Terran have a 45% winrate, it's because they suck" ...
Or few people saying that the TvZ matchup is Terran FAVORED in Korea because the ratio is 50.2/49.8, but when it was 47/53, it was perfectly fine and balanced !
On August 08 2012 23:27 iiGreetings wrote: Whoa pretty danm balanced... because i heard that terran was struggling, but it turns out its dead even with zerg basically. Thanks for this grapefruit!
EDIT:i speak of the korean ladder, as they are ahead of the meta game on average.
Unfortunately their metagame is to cheese or 1-base all in most of the time. The international terran win rate shows you what happens if you go beyond the early game :/
don't spread bullshit. The meta is to get a fast 3rd into a 2-2 timing before hive tech.
That's only for MKP, what are you so mad about?
No people just want to do the same old Terran builds and expect to win hence why Terran hasn't been winning. MKP is doing something outside the same old an is doing well with it but people just don't do it cause they want to win with the same old shit. So no it's not just MKP it's just that he found a way to win while no one else wants to change cause they're ignorant thinking they can actually break through with old out of date strategies.
On August 08 2012 23:27 iiGreetings wrote: Whoa pretty danm balanced... because i heard that terran was struggling, but it turns out its dead even with zerg basically. Thanks for this grapefruit!
EDIT:i speak of the korean ladder, as they are ahead of the meta game on average.
Unfortunately their metagame is to cheese or 1-base all in most of the time. The international terran win rate shows you what happens if you go beyond the early game :/
don't spread bullshit. The meta is to get a fast 3rd into a 2-2 timing before hive tech.
That's only for MKP, what are you so mad about?
No people just want to do the same old Terran builds and expect to win hence why Terran hasn't been winning. MKP is doing something outside the same old an is doing well with it but people just don't do it cause they want to win with the same old shit. So no it's not just MKP it's just that he found a way to win while no one else wants to change cause they're ignorant thinking they can actually break through with old out of date strategies.
Actually it's because every time a new build gets figured out it gets nerfed.
On August 09 2012 00:05 Rannasha wrote: I feel that looking at the Korean numbers as an indication of the state of balance in the game is a bad idea. The sample size is simply too small. In addition, it would only make sense if the Korean top-talents happen to be equally distributed between T, P and Z. Right now the skill-difference between the absolute top players that are in shape and the weaker Code S and Code A players is quite big. And this has a big effect on the overall winrate for the race.
Right now Taeja is beasting it up, pushing up Terran winrates. Does that say anything about the Terran race as a whole? Nope. Just that Taeja is stupidly good at the moment. A while back DRG had a similar period, where he won almost everything and really pushed Zerg winrates. That too, didn't say anything about game balance and Zergs, just that DRG was playing very well.
If the aim is to balance for the best of the best, then winrate statistics are useless. The more you restrict your data-set to top players (e.g. restricting the overall international data to Korea only), the more the influence of dominant players will become noticeable in the winrates.
Note that Blizzards aim is not just to balance for Ro8 GSL calibre players. They want to keep the foreigner scene alive as well and keep B.net filled with lower league players. It's a difficult challenge.
Just how much sample size is enough? As far as I can see it, it's plenty enough with the number they got now.
And you also want to balance, not from the top ? That's a bad idea. You always want to balance game changes from the very top. And the very top is Korean scene right now.
Yeah, because the Queen buff was obviously aimed at high level players, and totally wasn't considered by DRG as rewarding lazy play, or anything.
Right? And Fruitdealer won GSL way back after release, so clearly Zerg wasn't underpowered back then. Right?
Right?
Did you see the Ro16? Two zergs. Next round, just FD. But that IS the reason why his story in the first GSL was so great. He won in the dark age of zerg.
Fun fact: If you take out TaeJa and Gumiho from the KR statistics the TvZ win-rate drops to 47,1%.
Let's take out two of the best ZvT ers from the stats! OMG ZERGS WINRATE GOES DOWN TO LIKE 30% HOLY SHIT WTF WHAT
Fruitdealer and Nestea won the first two GSLs OMG ZERGS WERE BALANCED ALL ALONG AND EVERY ZERG EVER WHO DIDN'T WIN EVER WAS BAD!
Keyword: Outlier.
Also, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that having two guys with 90% win rates carrying the entire race to 50% win rate isn't a good sign of balance in any way.
Fun fact: If you take out TaeJa and Gumiho from the KR statistics the TvZ win-rate drops to 47,1%.
Let's take out two of the best ZvT ers from the stats! OMG ZERGS WINRATE GOES DOWN TO LIKE 30% HOLY SHIT WTF WHAT
the point he is making is that mediocre zergs are putting up better results than mediocre terrans when you remove the anomalies. i found it interesting thanks for sharing sic.
I really wish the term 'sample size' would just be off limits for these threads. The misuse of that term has gotten so bad that it's pointless to bring it up. I'm not saying these stats are or aren't valid. Just that people tend to use that term in a weird way, usually to support their pet balance issues.
That said, I love that these come out. I always enjoy seeing these data.
I would really like to see NA and EU separated, would be interested to see P/T v Z on EU... even international is higher than korea. It fells like Korean zergs are really shit atm, MC gets crushed by half-time zerg in Europe yet does pretty well for himself vs korean zergs. Would be really nice to see a race finally get "better" in Europe than Korea and i fell like zergs are really starting to look stronger in some aspects on the European side.
On August 10 2012 09:29 FeyFey wrote: impressive good results for terran still, expected worse. Love the fun fact. Still getting a TvT on Ladder feels like you found an epic.
The comparison to finding an epic made me think tvt is the only thing you find on ladder...
On August 09 2012 15:51 Kapouais wrote: Some comments here are incredible ... :D
When people say that top Terran are much better players than Zerg/Protoss overall but barely win because the game is imbalance, everyone is like "Oh stop with that, this argument is stupid !". Then, two posts later you read stuff like "If international Terran have a 45% winrate, it's because they suck" ...
Or few people saying that the TvZ matchup is Terran FAVORED in Korea because the ratio is 50.2/49.8, but when it was 47/53, it was perfectly fine and balanced !
and if i quickly added correctly there are roughly 190k terrans and 175k zergs, in any case it would be ridiculous to assume that talented players would pick zerg or protoss, but not terran initially for no reason.
On August 10 2012 18:45 RageCommodore wrote: Funnily enough, I still consider switching to terran right now... :D Silly me.
I was training my Zerg in order to switch, but with the Raven buff... Mech looks much more viable in both TvZ and TvT. And I like mech Now just find out something for TvP, some timing or other thing to get ahead early (because if you are even mid and late game with Protoss, you are, in fact, behind )
On August 09 2012 15:51 Kapouais wrote: Some comments here are incredible ... :D
When people say that top Terran are much better players than Zerg/Protoss overall but barely win because the game is imbalance, everyone is like "Oh stop with that, this argument is stupid !". Then, two posts later you read stuff like "If international Terran have a 45% winrate, it's because they suck" ...
Or few people saying that the TvZ matchup is Terran FAVORED in Korea because the ratio is 50.2/49.8, but when it was 47/53, it was perfectly fine and balanced !
and if i quickly added correctly there are roughly 190k terrans and 175k zergs, in any case it would be ridiculous to assume that talented players would pick zerg or protoss, but not terran initially for no reason.
That is because 57,7% of players are in Bronze or Silver league. Those are the players that propably just finished campaign and many of them choose Terran only because they already know the basics. The more skill needed, the less Terrans appears in sight just because Terran is way harder to play (but also more rewarding, which is why Terrans were dominating for a long time).
It's still beyond imagination why Blizzard decided to buff the queen. Pretty sure that it was balanced (with foreign terrans getting crushed but not that much), good koreans T (MMA MKP etc) were able to beat low/mid tier zergs easily, whereas against big zergs such as DRG it was more of a 50-50.
Seriously why nerf/buff when it was very close to balanced already :s.
no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry. I actually started drone scouting again vs T because they do the most stupid stuff in months.
One can see in Korean winrates what happens if you actually try to figure out smth. new. Foreigner Terrans just are comfortable crying because they were used to deny everything with just 4 hellions ( which is pretty ridiculous ).
and lol @ cloud crying that 2 base "timings" aka. allins got slightly nerfed due to faster overlords. OH MY GOSH IM TERRAN / PROTOSS I HAVE TO GO INTO MACRO GAME ? OHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGOD
+ its ridiculous demanding harder zerg mechanics then there is a race called protoss in this game.
On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote: no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry. I actually started drone scouting again vs T because they do the most stupid stuff in months.
One can see in Korean winrates what happens if you actually try to figure out smth. new. Foreigner Terrans just are comfortable crying because they were used to deny everything with just 4 hellions ( which is pretty ridiculous ).
and lol @ cloud crying that 2 base "timings" aka. allins got slightly nerfed due to faster overlords. OH MY GOSH IM TERRAN / PROTOSS I HAVE TO GO INTO MACRO GAME ? OHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGOD
+ its ridiculous demanding harder zerg mechanics then there is a race called protoss in this game.
Everything wrong with the zerg mentality is summarized so well in this post that it's amazing.
On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote: no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry. I actually started drone scouting again vs T because they do the most stupid stuff in months.
One can see in Korean winrates what happens if you actually try to figure out smth. new. Foreigner Terrans just are comfortable crying because they were used to deny everything with just 4 hellions ( which is pretty ridiculous ).
and lol @ cloud crying that 2 base "timings" aka. allins got slightly nerfed due to faster overlords. OH MY GOSH IM TERRAN / PROTOSS I HAVE TO GO INTO MACRO GAME ? OHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGOD
+ its ridiculous demanding harder zerg mechanics then there is a race called protoss in this game.
Delay, not deny. The only thing single-Reactor Hellions denied is fast three base without a care. They just forced Zerg to play fair, little else. Being set back from broken to playing fair is not being behind, it is playing fair. Both players did their due diligence and they were about even. (And let me go on record that I love that possibility of brokenness being there, but the current situation where it is both standard and very safe is absurd) You could argue that distinguishing the different all-ins (especially Marauder Hellion or Mass Hellion) from standard speedbump Hellion play was difficult, but the Ferrarilords should've easily fixed that. There was simply no reason to buff the Queen, which is now flat out a better combat unit than the Roach (seriously, Queens have more range, more HP, same armor, shoot air, do same damage even to armoured targets like Marauders (from which they don't take extra damage either), while doing double duty as a healer and a Barracks. For no larvae, for no gas. Sounds good to me.
The complaint isn't oh no midgame pushes are weaker. The complaint is you have to commit very heavily to pressure the Zerg because the 6-Queen opener laughs off all kinds of light pressure whether from ground or air, and that the Zerg can by nature just outgreed whatever you come up with while being insanely much safer than you can while being super greedy. They can also just flip a switch and kill that greed, so yeah. Pretty conclusively behind in the early game without a heavily committed attack against super greedy fast expand play. Sounds like balance. Add to that the super creepspread nerfing midgame timings, Zerg being able to tech like madmen with the new super Queens (and then mass Infestors, which incidentally work against everything like Ghosts used to) for safety and Blizzard in it's infinite wisdom deciding that Terran late game should consist only of answers without any new actual threats (aka things that force answers like Broods, Colossi or mass Ultra) unless they somehow manage to get into the ultra-lategame where they can actually try going for Raven-Battlecruiser, and Terran is behind for the whole damn matchup unless they all-in or manage to get into the ultra lategame by some miracle.
This isn't balanced except by the most pedantic of definitions, let alone good game design. Nor does it make for enjoyable games to watch. But sadly, Blizzard does not have a clue, does not care, and the players don't care because anything but pressing sdddd is being behind. It's amazing to read complaints about having to build Roaches to shoo the Hellions away. My own mindset was always "Wow, I can just build a safety Warren, leave it at that and press srrrr if I sniff pressure coming, kill it and press sdddd and laugh all the way to the bank". For some reason, brokenness should be standard. It's funny how Street Fighter players discuss balance far more civilly and productively than RTS players ever could. You're smarter than that, surely?
On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote: no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry. I actually started drone scouting again vs T because they do the most stupid stuff in months.
One can see in Korean winrates what happens if you actually try to figure out smth. new. Foreigner Terrans just are comfortable crying because they were used to deny everything with just 4 hellions ( which is pretty ridiculous ).
and lol @ cloud crying that 2 base "timings" aka. allins got slightly nerfed due to faster overlords. OH MY GOSH IM TERRAN / PROTOSS I HAVE TO GO INTO MACRO GAME ? OHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGOD
+ its ridiculous demanding harder zerg mechanics then there is a race called protoss in this game.
Everything wrong with the zerg mentality is summarized so well in this post that it's amazing.
everything wrong with ur mentality is summarized with your post as well, back to the point, game is balanced, creep change will make terran > zerg again but tvp and zvp will remain roughly the same.
On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote: One can see in Korean winrates what happens if you actually try to figure out smth. new. Foreigner Terrans just are comfortable crying because they were used to deny everything with just 4 hellions ( which is pretty ridiculous ).
Pre Queen patch Terran investment for 6 helions: 150/100+600+50/50=800/150 Pre Queen patch Zerg investment to counter helions 150 + 50 + 300/100= 450/100
On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote: no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry. I actually started drone scouting again vs T because they do the most stupid stuff in months.
One can see in Korean winrates what happens if you actually try to figure out smth. new. Foreigner Terrans just are comfortable crying because they were used to deny everything with just 4 hellions ( which is pretty ridiculous ).
and lol @ cloud crying that 2 base "timings" aka. allins got slightly nerfed due to faster overlords. OH MY GOSH IM TERRAN / PROTOSS I HAVE TO GO INTO MACRO GAME ? OHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGOD
+ its ridiculous demanding harder zerg mechanics then there is a race called protoss in this game.
Everything wrong with the zerg mentality is summarized so well in this post that it's amazing.
everything wrong with ur mentality is summarized with your post as well, back to the point, game is balanced, creep change will make terran > zerg again but tvp and zvp will remain roughly the same.
On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote: no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry. I actually started drone scouting again vs T because they do the most stupid stuff in months.
One can see in Korean winrates what happens if you actually try to figure out smth. new. Foreigner Terrans just are comfortable crying because they were used to deny everything with just 4 hellions ( which is pretty ridiculous ).
and lol @ cloud crying that 2 base "timings" aka. allins got slightly nerfed due to faster overlords. OH MY GOSH IM TERRAN / PROTOSS I HAVE TO GO INTO MACRO GAME ? OHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGOD
+ its ridiculous demanding harder zerg mechanics then there is a race called protoss in this game.
Quality post, man. You nearly convinced me with all those caps. I'm pretty sure you're qualified to say that every foreign terran is struggling and "comfortable crying" because they simply do not figure out "something new".
On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote: no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry. I actually started drone scouting again vs T because they do the most stupid stuff in months.
One can see in Korean winrates what happens if you actually try to figure out smth. new. Foreigner Terrans just are comfortable crying because they were used to deny everything with just 4 hellions ( which is pretty ridiculous ).
and lol @ cloud crying that 2 base "timings" aka. allins got slightly nerfed due to faster overlords. OH MY GOSH IM TERRAN / PROTOSS I HAVE TO GO INTO MACRO GAME ? OHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGOD
+ its ridiculous demanding harder zerg mechanics then there is a race called protoss in this game.
Everything wrong with the zerg mentality is summarized so well in this post that it's amazing.
But you have to admit that there is a spark of truth in it.
Protoss used to 4gate a lot, they really refined their 1 Base play. When they found out they could quite safely expand by using mass sentries, they didnt bother entering a macro game but developed 2 Base all-ins. With the possibility of FFE the next step was: even faster 2Base all-ins.
And its not too far away from what terran did. Jinro had a reputation because he was one of the very few "terran macro players" while most other terrans tried to abuse their early and midgame advantage to the max.
Nothing wrong with that, if you got an advantage use it. But dont tell me that Toss/Terran ever tried to macro hard in the past.
Pre Queen patch Terran investment for 6 helions: 150/100+600+50/50=800/150 Pre Queen patch Zerg investment to counter helions 150 + 50 + 300/100= 450/100
Not sure how that was imbalanced for terran.
A Roachwarren and 4 Roaches will do shit against 6 (Prepatch) Hellions. You still cant spread creep and you still cant expand as hellions are so much faster than roaches. Hellions just sit at the edge of your creep or your 3rd and wait for you to be stupid enough to "scare them off" as the will laugh at you and just roast drones at your main/natural where your roaches are NOT and wont be for a long time. So you can add 100 + 150 + 75 + 75 + 50 +50 +50 to your nice sum to stay safe and suddenly you are quite even with the exception that T got his 3rd before you and will continue to use Fatory and reactor while your Roachwarren and Roaches are just wasted.
On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote: no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry. I actually started drone scouting again vs T because they do the most stupid stuff in months.
One can see in Korean winrates what happens if you actually try to figure out smth. new. Foreigner Terrans just are comfortable crying because they were used to deny everything with just 4 hellions ( which is pretty ridiculous ).
and lol @ cloud crying that 2 base "timings" aka. allins got slightly nerfed due to faster overlords. OH MY GOSH IM TERRAN / PROTOSS I HAVE TO GO INTO MACRO GAME ? OHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGOD
+ its ridiculous demanding harder zerg mechanics then there is a race called protoss in this game.
this is so true, but i must say that protoss is ahrder than you think...
On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote: One can see in Korean winrates what happens if you actually try to figure out smth. new. Foreigner Terrans just are comfortable crying because they were used to deny everything with just 4 hellions ( which is pretty ridiculous ).
Pre Queen patch Terran investment for 6 helions: 150/100+600+50/50=800/150 Pre Queen patch Zerg investment to counter helions 150 + 50 + 300/100= 450/100
Not sure how that was imbalanced for terran.
You forgot the cost of the barracks, refinery and extractor.
On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote: One can see in Korean winrates what happens if you actually try to figure out smth. new. Foreigner Terrans just are comfortable crying because they were used to deny everything with just 4 hellions ( which is pretty ridiculous ).
Pre Queen patch Terran investment for 6 helions: 150/100+600+50/50=800/150 Pre Queen patch Zerg investment to counter helions 150 + 50 + 300/100= 450/100
Not sure how that was imbalanced for terran.
But that means I can't press sddddd. That is, by IdrA school standards, imbalanced. Also, funny how it's okay for BL/Infestor to force pure counters but wrong for Hellions to. I guess only Zerg should have forcing moves in this game? (A concept from the Go world, where a move is relatively harmless if responded to properly, but disastrous if not responded to. That is, it forces a response. Reactor Hellion fits this to a T.)
Before entering this thread, people need to freaking take a Stats class rather than just accuse people of skewing stats towards personal goals. Outliers happen and they need to be taken out
On August 10 2012 23:17 Chaggi wrote: Before entering this thread, people need to freaking take a Stats class rather than just accuse people of skewing stats towards personal goals. Outliers happen and they need to be taken out
The problem is it is skewed because of the method used to identify and remove outliers.
Firstly, he used a qualitative approach, which is already a bit unsettling in itself (though it can be used).
More importantly, however, he did not remove outliers in the other direction. He did not take out anyone that was particularly bad at TvZ. That is where the issue lies.
On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote: no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry. I actually started drone scouting again vs T because they do the most stupid stuff in months.
One can see in Korean winrates what happens if you actually try to figure out smth. new. Foreigner Terrans just are comfortable crying because they were used to deny everything with just 4 hellions ( which is pretty ridiculous ).
and lol @ cloud crying that 2 base "timings" aka. allins got slightly nerfed due to faster overlords. OH MY GOSH IM TERRAN / PROTOSS I HAVE TO GO INTO MACRO GAME ? OHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGOD
+ its ridiculous demanding harder zerg mechanics then there is a race called protoss in this game.
Everything wrong with the zerg mentality is summarized so well in this post that it's amazing.
But you have to admit that there is a spark of truth in it.
Protoss used to 4gate a lot, they really refined their 1 Base play. When they found out they could quite safely expand by using mass sentries, they didnt bother entering a macro game but developed 2 Base all-ins. With the possibility of FFE the next step was: even faster 2Base all-ins.
And its not too far away from what terran did. Jinro had a reputation because he was one of the very few "terran macro players" while most other terrans tried to abuse their early and midgame advantage to the max.
Nothing wrong with that, if you got an advantage use it. But dont tell me that Toss/Terran ever tried to macro hard in the past.
The problem with this logic is that you're assuming macro games show that you have more skill. The reason P and T don't want to go into the late-game vs. Z isn't because they don't have the ability to do so, the reason they don't want to go into the late-game vs. Z is because Z has Infestor/Broodlord and they don't currently have anything that can consistently deal with that composition when the Z doesn't screw up. You have to severely outplay the Z player in order to beat them in the late-game (as in be a hell of a lot better than them), which discourages macro games...
... so if you can't do anything but go into a macro game because Z can deny any attempt at 2 Base pressure, you're going to be pretty frustrated about playing vs. Z players.
I have never written somewhere "a macro game takes more skill", have I? But you cant say Toss and Terra tried hard to macro, or? You cant even say "P/T didnt want to go lategame because they had no chance against infestor/BL" when lategame wasnt even explored, infestors where hardly used and games tended to end midgame. So please... tell me what hindered toss/terran to try to macro/explore the lategame when Infestor/Broodlord wasnt even a theoretical concept?
It was not because they where afraid of the mighty zerg lategame 1,5 years ago, they just had to possibility to win comfortably at the 12 minute mark and they used/abused it.
On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote: no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry. I actually started drone scouting again vs T because they do the most stupid stuff in months.
One can see in Korean winrates what happens if you actually try to figure out smth. new. Foreigner Terrans just are comfortable crying because they were used to deny everything with just 4 hellions ( which is pretty ridiculous ).
and lol @ cloud crying that 2 base "timings" aka. allins got slightly nerfed due to faster overlords. OH MY GOSH IM TERRAN / PROTOSS I HAVE TO GO INTO MACRO GAME ? OHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGOD
+ its ridiculous demanding harder zerg mechanics then there is a race called protoss in this game.
Everything wrong with the zerg mentality is summarized so well in this post that it's amazing.
But you have to admit that there is a spark of truth in it.
Protoss used to 4gate a lot, they really refined their 1 Base play. When they found out they could quite safely expand by using mass sentries, they didnt bother entering a macro game but developed 2 Base all-ins. With the possibility of FFE the next step was: even faster 2Base all-ins.
And its not too far away from what terran did. Jinro had a reputation because he was one of the very few "terran macro players" while most other terrans tried to abuse their early and midgame advantage to the max.
Nothing wrong with that, if you got an advantage use it. But dont tell me that Toss/Terran ever tried to macro hard in the past.
The problem with this logic is that you're assuming macro games show that you have more skill. The reason P and T don't want to go into the late-game vs. Z isn't because they don't have the ability to do so, the reason they don't want to go into the late-game vs. Z is because Z has Infestor/Broodlord and they don't currently have anything that can consistently deal with that composition when the Z doesn't screw up. You have to severely outplay the Z player in order to beat them in the late-game (as in be a hell of a lot better than them), which discourages macro games...
... so if you can't do anything but go into a macro game because Z can deny any attempt at 2 Base pressure, you're going to be pretty frustrated about playing vs. Z players.
I have never written somewhere "a macro game takes more skill", have I? But you cant say Toss and Terra tried hard to macro, or? You cant even say "P/T didnt want to go lategame because they had no chance against infestor/BL" when lategame wasnt even explored, infestors where hardly used and games tended to end midgame. So please... tell me what hindered toss/terran to try to macro/explore the lategame when Infestor/Broodlord wasnt even a theoretical concept?
It was not because they where afraid of the mighty zerg lategame 1,5 years ago, they just had to possibility to win comfortably at the 12 minute mark and they used/abused it.
You don't say that macro takes more skill, but by saying that they should have tried harder to macro implies that it is the right way to play, which is not necessarily true.
On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote: no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry.
Never read something more wrong then this. Do you really think all terrans play like that? Players like kas and thorzain do macrobuilds whole the time, just like gumiho and taeja. I (1500 master) do macro builds whole the time. You ever macroed against zerg? You ever had to play against broodlord + infestor?
On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote: no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry.
Never read something more wrong then this. Do you really think all terrans play like that? Players like kas and thorzain do macrobuilds whole the time, just like gumiho and taeja. I (1500 master) do macro builds whole the time. You ever macroed against zerg? You ever had to play against broodlord + infestor?
On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote: no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry.
Never read something more wrong then this. Do you really think all terrans play like that? Players like kas and thorzain do macrobuilds whole the time, just like gumiho and taeja. I (1500 master) do macro builds whole the time. You ever macroed against zerg? You ever had to play against broodlord + infestor?
micro your ravens better!!!!
Oh thanks for this tip! I think me and all other terrans should start to micro our ravens better! I mean, splitting all our rines is no problem, but the raven micro man, so hard!!!! Thanks terran brother!
On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote: no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry.
Never read something more wrong then this. Do you really think all terrans play like that? Players like kas and thorzain do macrobuilds whole the time, just like gumiho and taeja. I (1500 master) do macro builds whole the time. You ever macroed against zerg? You ever had to play against broodlord + infestor?
micro your ravens better!!!!
Oh thanks for this tip! I think me and all other terrans should start to micro our ravens better! I mean, splitting all our rines is no problem, but the raven micro man, so hard!!!!
You don't say that macro takes more skill, but by saying that they should have tried harder to macro implies that it is the right way to play, which is not necessarily true.
I didnt even say they should have tried harder to macro. You cant just quote a text and then make up something that wasnt even written there. No mention about skill, not even in the slightest.
You don't say that macro takes more skill, but by saying that they should have tried harder to macro implies that it is the right way to play, which is not necessarily true.
I didnt even say they should have tried harder to macro. You cant just quote a text and then make up something that wasnt even written there. No mention about skill, not even in the slightest.
Your comment did have a tone that T/P are just not good at macro games against zerg, based on you agreeing with the guy who said: "OH MY GOSH IM TERRAN / PROTOSS I HAVE TO GO INTO MACRO GAME ? OHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGOD"
Both you and the all-caps guy really should queue up a game as terran or protoss, and let zerg drone up to 90 by the time you are at 65 scvs/probes, and let them get up that infestor/BL army because you went for a straight up macro game. Then when you get destroyed by the most powerful composition currently in the game, made by the race that has the economy lead, maybe then you will understand why there are so many two base timings.
You don't say that macro takes more skill, but by saying that they should have tried harder to macro implies that it is the right way to play, which is not necessarily true.
I didnt even say they should have tried harder to macro. You cant just quote a text and then make up something that wasnt even written there. No mention about skill, not even in the slightest.
Your comment did have a tone that T/P are just not good at macro games against zerg, based on you agreeing with the guy who said: "OH MY GOSH IM TERRAN / PROTOSS I HAVE TO GO INTO MACRO GAME ? OHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGOD"
Both you and the all-caps guy really should queue up a game as terran or protoss, and let zerg drone up to 90 by the time you are at 65 scvs/probes, and let them get up that infestor/BL army because you went for a straight up macro game. Then when you get destroyed by the most powerful composition currently in the game, made by the race that has the economy lead, maybe then you will understand why there are so many two base timings.
the game isn't as straight forward as you want to think.
Both you and the all-caps guy really should queue up a game as terran or protoss, and let zerg drone up to 90 by the time you are at 65 scvs/probes, and let them get up that infestor/BL army because you went for a straight up macro game. Then when you get destroyed by the most powerful composition currently in the game, made by the race that has the economy lead, maybe then you will understand why there are so many two base timings.
And I told you Toss/Terra didnt do anything else than 1 base or 2 base timings before infestor/Bl even came into existence. You really want to sell me that 1,5 years back the nostradamus terran and the mayan protoss have forseen that there will be an uber unit combo and startet to train their 1 and 2 base all-ins because they where afraid of the future apocalypse?
Both you and the all-caps guy really should queue up a game as terran or protoss, and let zerg drone up to 90 by the time you are at 65 scvs/probes, and let them get up that infestor/BL army because you went for a straight up macro game. Then when you get destroyed by the most powerful composition currently in the game, made by the race that has the economy lead, maybe then you will understand why there are so many two base timings.
And I told you Toss/Terra didnt do anything else than 1 base or 2 base timings before infestor/Bl even came into existence. You really want to sell me that 1,5 years back the nostradamus terran and the mayan protoss have forseen that there will be an uber unit combo and startet to train their 1 and 2 base all-ins because they where afraid of the future apocalypse?
What the fuck is the point of this useless argument? Everyone at the top level is capable of macroing well, and microing well. The difference is that Zerg gets a lategame composition that requires minimal micro to use effectively, and which can be achieved with minimal micro for defence.That aside, Protoss and Terran players can't actually engage BL/Infestor without their opponent making a mistake.
Both you and the all-caps guy really should queue up a game as terran or protoss, and let zerg drone up to 90 by the time you are at 65 scvs/probes, and let them get up that infestor/BL army because you went for a straight up macro game. Then when you get destroyed by the most powerful composition currently in the game, made by the race that has the economy lead, maybe then you will understand why there are so many two base timings.
And I told you Toss/Terra didnt do anything else than 1 base or 2 base timings before infestor/Bl even came into existence. You really want to sell me that 1,5 years back the nostradamus terran and the mayan protoss have forseen that there will be an uber unit combo and startet to train their 1 and 2 base all-ins because they where afraid of the future apocalypse?
What are you on about? Have you just never actually watched or played SC2? That is the impression your post gives.
Both you and the all-caps guy really should queue up a game as terran or protoss, and let zerg drone up to 90 by the time you are at 65 scvs/probes, and let them get up that infestor/BL army because you went for a straight up macro game. Then when you get destroyed by the most powerful composition currently in the game, made by the race that has the economy lead, maybe then you will understand why there are so many two base timings.
And I told you Toss/Terra didnt do anything else than 1 base or 2 base timings before infestor/Bl even came into existence. You really want to sell me that 1,5 years back the nostradamus terran and the mayan protoss have forseen that there will be an uber unit combo and startet to train their 1 and 2 base all-ins because they where afraid of the future apocalypse?
Both you and the all-caps guy really should queue up a game as terran or protoss, and let zerg drone up to 90 by the time you are at 65 scvs/probes, and let them get up that infestor/BL army because you went for a straight up macro game. Then when you get destroyed by the most powerful composition currently in the game, made by the race that has the economy lead, maybe then you will understand why there are so many two base timings.
And I told you Toss/Terra didnt do anything else than 1 base or 2 base timings before infestor/Bl even came into existence. You really want to sell me that 1,5 years back the nostradamus terran and the mayan protoss have forseen that there will be an uber unit combo and startet to train their 1 and 2 base all-ins because they where afraid of the future apocalypse?
i dont understand this.
I did, but it doesn't matter. He is still ignoring what you are saying
Both you and the all-caps guy really should queue up a game as terran or protoss, and let zerg drone up to 90 by the time you are at 65 scvs/probes, and let them get up that infestor/BL army because you went for a straight up macro game. Then when you get destroyed by the most powerful composition currently in the game, made by the race that has the economy lead, maybe then you will understand why there are so many two base timings.
And I told you Toss/Terra didnt do anything else than 1 base or 2 base timings before infestor/Bl even came into existence. You really want to sell me that 1,5 years back the nostradamus terran and the mayan protoss have forseen that there will be an uber unit combo and startet to train their 1 and 2 base all-ins because they where afraid of the future apocalypse?
i dont understand this.
I did, but it doesn't matter. He is still ignoring what you are saying
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it.
I have never seen you microing your units properly and horrible players like jonnyrecco win over people like naniwa. If you really think zerg players are better right now then I won't argue with you to pop the fantasy bubble you live in. Just enjoy the nonsense that's going on right now and try to win as much as you can while it lasts.
did you watch how naniwa played that series? jonnyrecco was far better than him in those games.
and if you wanna talk about a fantasy bubble, try looking at terran's win rate in.... all of starcraft2. terran players were just always the superior players right?
Not always, no, but as of late, yes. For the longest time, nobody other than DRG and Nestea were able to compete at the top level, and it wasn't because of imbalance. It was because nobody else seemed to have the mechanical or reactive ability that those two players did. But look at Terran. There have always been like 5-10 truly incredibly mechanical players. Protoss? For a long time it was MC, then some more got added on, and now there's a decent number of pretty awesome mechanically and strategically brilliant Protoss.
I don't even play Terran and have no reason to defend them, but they definitely do have the most truly top level players, just from a mechanical point of view. Right now, there honestly are a few really awesome Zergs who can compete. For some reason, there just don't seem to be a lot of them at the moment. It's not really a balance thing since the most strategically/mechanically skilled Zergs are capable of beating the best players from the other races pretty reliably. But vice versa doesn't seem to be true, and, in fact, some of the better T/P players are basically totally out of their element against Zerg during the late game. If that doesn't say something, nothing does.
Both you and the all-caps guy really should queue up a game as terran or protoss, and let zerg drone up to 90 by the time you are at 65 scvs/probes, and let them get up that infestor/BL army because you went for a straight up macro game. Then when you get destroyed by the most powerful composition currently in the game, made by the race that has the economy lead, maybe then you will understand why there are so many two base timings.
And I told you Toss/Terra didnt do anything else than 1 base or 2 base timings before infestor/Bl even came into existence. You really want to sell me that 1,5 years back the nostradamus terran and the mayan protoss have forseen that there will be an uber unit combo and startet to train their 1 and 2 base all-ins because they where afraid of the future apocalypse?
Erm... a year and a half ago every protoss and thier moms did 3 base colossus void ray deathball and zergs whined to high heaven about it. That is what led to the infstor buff and which then led to BL/infestor.There were two one and two base all ins that got very popular before that, one being the 4gate at release, and then the other being the 6 gate timing, which was the answer to Zerg 2 base muta play.
On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote: Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate.
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it.
I have never seen you microing your units properly and horrible players like jonnyrecco win over people like naniwa. If you really think zerg players are better right now then I won't argue with you to pop the fantasy bubble you live in. Just enjoy the nonsense that's going on right now and try to win as much as you can while it lasts.
did you watch how naniwa played that series? jonnyrecco was far better than him in those games.
and if you wanna talk about a fantasy bubble, try looking at terran's win rate in.... all of starcraft2. terran players were just always the superior players right?
Not always, no, but as of late, yes. For the longest time, nobody other than DRG and Nestea were able to compete at the top level, and it wasn't because of imbalance. It was because nobody else seemed to have the mechanical or reactive ability that those two players did. But look at Terran. There have always been like 5-10 truly incredibly mechanical players. Protoss? For a long time it was MC, then some more got added on, and now there's a decent number of pretty awesome mechanically and strategically brilliant Protoss.
I don't even play Terran and have no reason to defend them, but they definitely do have the most truly top level players, just from a mechanical point of view. Right now, there honestly are a few really awesome Zergs who can compete. For some reason, there just don't seem to be a lot of them at the moment. It's not really a balance thing since the most strategically/mechanically skilled Zergs are capable of beating the best players from the other races pretty reliably. But vice versa doesn't seem to be true, and, in fact, some of the better T/P players are basically totally out of their element against Zerg during the late game. If that doesn't say something, nothing does.
Maybe they don't look as impressive mechanically because you don't realize how macro taxing zerg is, just because it's not as showy as splitting marines doesn't mean that the race isn't mechanically difficult.
On August 08 2012 23:38 aTnClouD wrote: [quote] Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it.
I have never seen you microing your units properly and horrible players like jonnyrecco win over people like naniwa. If you really think zerg players are better right now then I won't argue with you to pop the fantasy bubble you live in. Just enjoy the nonsense that's going on right now and try to win as much as you can while it lasts.
did you watch how naniwa played that series? jonnyrecco was far better than him in those games.
and if you wanna talk about a fantasy bubble, try looking at terran's win rate in.... all of starcraft2. terran players were just always the superior players right?
Not always, no, but as of late, yes. For the longest time, nobody other than DRG and Nestea were able to compete at the top level, and it wasn't because of imbalance. It was because nobody else seemed to have the mechanical or reactive ability that those two players did. But look at Terran. There have always been like 5-10 truly incredibly mechanical players. Protoss? For a long time it was MC, then some more got added on, and now there's a decent number of pretty awesome mechanically and strategically brilliant Protoss.
I don't even play Terran and have no reason to defend them, but they definitely do have the most truly top level players, just from a mechanical point of view. Right now, there honestly are a few really awesome Zergs who can compete. For some reason, there just don't seem to be a lot of them at the moment. It's not really a balance thing since the most strategically/mechanically skilled Zergs are capable of beating the best players from the other races pretty reliably. But vice versa doesn't seem to be true, and, in fact, some of the better T/P players are basically totally out of their element against Zerg during the late game. If that doesn't say something, nothing does.
Maybe they don't look as impressive mechanically because you don't realize how macro taxing zerg is, just because it's not as showy as splitting marines doesn't mean that the race isn't mechanically difficult.
Zerg macro is taxing? The entirety of zergs macro consists of remembering to larva inject on a timer, which develops as muscle memory after a while.
On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote: no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry.
Never read something more wrong then this. Do you really think all terrans play like that? Players like kas and thorzain do macrobuilds whole the time, just like gumiho and taeja. I (1500 master) do macro builds whole the time. You ever macroed against zerg? You ever had to play against broodlord + infestor?
You should watch a replay of Kas and compare it to a Korean terran. "I am going to move out with all my marines clumped up in one ball without splitting, onto zerg creep, without pre positioning my tanks so that two fungals can wipe out my army!" "lets also never deny zerg creep after my timing attack, so that it reaches my 4th and I am contained on 3 bases!!"
Lol IdrA talking about sitting and bitching, pretty funny considering that's exactly what he did while really good zergs such as Stephano were raping koreans protoss left and right kinda easily. Oh the irony...
On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote: no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry.
Never read something more wrong then this. Do you really think all terrans play like that? Players like kas and thorzain do macrobuilds whole the time, just like gumiho and taeja. I (1500 master) do macro builds whole the time. You ever macroed against zerg? You ever had to play against broodlord + infestor?
You should watch a replay of Kas and compare it to a Korean terran. "I am going to move out with all my marines clumped up in one ball without splitting, onto zerg creep, without pre positioning my tanks so that two fungals can wipe out my army!" "lets also never deny zerg creep after my timing attack, so that it reaches my 4th and I am contained on 3 bases!!"
Whenever I see a Zerg talking about spreading Marines or Vikings out against Fungal, I remember all those times where a Zerg loses 10 Broodlords to one Vortex. And this is something that happens to top Korean Zergs on a regular basis.
On August 08 2012 23:38 aTnClouD wrote: [quote] Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon.
are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it.
I have never seen you microing your units properly and horrible players like jonnyrecco win over people like naniwa. If you really think zerg players are better right now then I won't argue with you to pop the fantasy bubble you live in. Just enjoy the nonsense that's going on right now and try to win as much as you can while it lasts.
did you watch how naniwa played that series? jonnyrecco was far better than him in those games.
and if you wanna talk about a fantasy bubble, try looking at terran's win rate in.... all of starcraft2. terran players were just always the superior players right?
Not always, no, but as of late, yes. For the longest time, nobody other than DRG and Nestea were able to compete at the top level, and it wasn't because of imbalance. It was because nobody else seemed to have the mechanical or reactive ability that those two players did. But look at Terran. There have always been like 5-10 truly incredibly mechanical players. Protoss? For a long time it was MC, then some more got added on, and now there's a decent number of pretty awesome mechanically and strategically brilliant Protoss.
I don't even play Terran and have no reason to defend them, but they definitely do have the most truly top level players, just from a mechanical point of view. Right now, there honestly are a few really awesome Zergs who can compete. For some reason, there just don't seem to be a lot of them at the moment. It's not really a balance thing since the most strategically/mechanically skilled Zergs are capable of beating the best players from the other races pretty reliably. But vice versa doesn't seem to be true, and, in fact, some of the better T/P players are basically totally out of their element against Zerg during the late game. If that doesn't say something, nothing does.
Maybe they don't look as impressive mechanically because you don't realize how macro taxing zerg is, just because it's not as showy as splitting marines doesn't mean that the race isn't mechanically difficult.
Whether or not it's taxing isn't relevant. What's relevant is that it isn't a reaction. It's muscle memory. Every ~40 seconds, without fail, you do your Injects. There's no regularity to splitting Marines or using FFs or whatever, which is why so many T/P players lose when they react too late and get all their units Fungaled or get owned by a runby.
On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote: no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry.
Never read something more wrong then this. Do you really think all terrans play like that? Players like kas and thorzain do macrobuilds whole the time, just like gumiho and taeja. I (1500 master) do macro builds whole the time. You ever macroed against zerg? You ever had to play against broodlord + infestor?
You should watch a replay of Kas and compare it to a Korean terran. "I am going to move out with all my marines clumped up in one ball without splitting, onto zerg creep, without pre positioning my tanks so that two fungals can wipe out my army!" "lets also never deny zerg creep after my timing attack, so that it reaches my 4th and I am contained on 3 bases!!"
Whenever I see a Zerg talking about spreading Marines or Vikings out against Fungal, I remember all those times where a Zerg loses 10 Broodlords to one Vortex. And this is something that happens to top Korean Zergs on a regular basis.
But I guess they play Zerg so it's fine.
Stimmed marines moves about 6 times faster than a broodlord. A compareable example would be 10 vikings getting 'caught' in a fungal, which happens to top terrans all the time. Vikings that are smaller and moves way faster.
On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote: no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry.
Never read something more wrong then this. Do you really think all terrans play like that? Players like kas and thorzain do macrobuilds whole the time, just like gumiho and taeja. I (1500 master) do macro builds whole the time. You ever macroed against zerg? You ever had to play against broodlord + infestor?
You should watch a replay of Kas and compare it to a Korean terran. "I am going to move out with all my marines clumped up in one ball without splitting, onto zerg creep, without pre positioning my tanks so that two fungals can wipe out my army!" "lets also never deny zerg creep after my timing attack, so that it reaches my 4th and I am contained on 3 bases!!"
Whenever I see a Zerg talking about spreading Marines or Vikings out against Fungal, I remember all those times where a Zerg loses 10 Broodlords to one Vortex. And this is something that happens to top Korean Zergs on a regular basis.
But I guess they play Zerg so it's fine.
Stimmed marines moves about 6 times faster than a broodlord. A compareable example would be 10 vikings getting 'caught' in a fungal, which happens to top terrans all the time. Vikings that are smaller and moves way faster.
Lol? You have nothing else to control aside from BLs. You have Fungal. Motherships are pretty much as slow as BLs. They don't exactly come out of nowhere.
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it.
I have never seen you microing your units properly and horrible players like jonnyrecco win over people like naniwa. If you really think zerg players are better right now then I won't argue with you to pop the fantasy bubble you live in. Just enjoy the nonsense that's going on right now and try to win as much as you can while it lasts.
did you watch how naniwa played that series? jonnyrecco was far better than him in those games.
and if you wanna talk about a fantasy bubble, try looking at terran's win rate in.... all of starcraft2. terran players were just always the superior players right?
Not always, no, but as of late, yes. For the longest time, nobody other than DRG and Nestea were able to compete at the top level, and it wasn't because of imbalance. It was because nobody else seemed to have the mechanical or reactive ability that those two players did. But look at Terran. There have always been like 5-10 truly incredibly mechanical players. Protoss? For a long time it was MC, then some more got added on, and now there's a decent number of pretty awesome mechanically and strategically brilliant Protoss.
I don't even play Terran and have no reason to defend them, but they definitely do have the most truly top level players, just from a mechanical point of view. Right now, there honestly are a few really awesome Zergs who can compete. For some reason, there just don't seem to be a lot of them at the moment. It's not really a balance thing since the most strategically/mechanically skilled Zergs are capable of beating the best players from the other races pretty reliably. But vice versa doesn't seem to be true, and, in fact, some of the better T/P players are basically totally out of their element against Zerg during the late game. If that doesn't say something, nothing does.
Maybe they don't look as impressive mechanically because you don't realize how macro taxing zerg is, just because it's not as showy as splitting marines doesn't mean that the race isn't mechanically difficult.
Whether or not it's taxing isn't relevant. What's relevant is that it isn't a reaction. It's muscle memory. Every ~40 seconds, without fail, you do your Injects. There's no regularity to splitting Marines or using FFs or whatever, which is why so many T/P players lose when they react too late and get all their units Fungaled or get owned by a runby.
Splitting units or using fields is no less based on experience and practice than are injects. Whatever you understand by 'muscle memory', those two certainly fall in the category of being applied without conscious deliberation. It happens in the now on the basis of practice.
What is certain is this: Among the top players, the zergs in general tend to have a higher average APM. DRG, monster, golden, stephano, losira all have higher than 350, most towards 400 apm. I can think of two players lower than 300 on the top level - nestea and leenock. They both struggle when they get to lategame.
The terrans? Taeja reaches 370 apm. MMA, MVP, Puma are all sub 350. Marinking hovers around 250 APM. By far the majority of the code S terrans are sub 300.
Protosses tell the same story, only even more pronounced.
Now, this doesn't mean that playing zerg is the hardest. But it does seem top indicate that to play zerg at the highest level is more mechanically demanding than playing terran or protoss. And that is okay. Maybe the other races takes more deliberation, more thought put into builds or more precision. But the race that requires speed at the highest level? Zerg.
On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote: no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry.
Never read something more wrong then this. Do you really think all terrans play like that? Players like kas and thorzain do macrobuilds whole the time, just like gumiho and taeja. I (1500 master) do macro builds whole the time. You ever macroed against zerg? You ever had to play against broodlord + infestor?
You should watch a replay of Kas and compare it to a Korean terran. "I am going to move out with all my marines clumped up in one ball without splitting, onto zerg creep, without pre positioning my tanks so that two fungals can wipe out my army!" "lets also never deny zerg creep after my timing attack, so that it reaches my 4th and I am contained on 3 bases!!"
Whenever I see a Zerg talking about spreading Marines or Vikings out against Fungal, I remember all those times where a Zerg loses 10 Broodlords to one Vortex. And this is something that happens to top Korean Zergs on a regular basis.
But I guess they play Zerg so it's fine.
Stimmed marines moves about 6 times faster than a broodlord. A compareable example would be 10 vikings getting 'caught' in a fungal, which happens to top terrans all the time. Vikings that are smaller and moves way faster.
Lol? You have nothing else to control aside from BLs. You have Fungal. Motherships are pretty much as slow as BLs. They don't exactly come out of nowhere.
How is that relevant to the argument you are trying to make? Avoiding to be caught should surely be easier with a faster unit when you put it up as black and white as you try here..
The situation can dictate other factors, of course.
On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote: no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry.
Never read something more wrong then this. Do you really think all terrans play like that? Players like kas and thorzain do macrobuilds whole the time, just like gumiho and taeja. I (1500 master) do macro builds whole the time. You ever macroed against zerg? You ever had to play against broodlord + infestor?
You should watch a replay of Kas and compare it to a Korean terran. "I am going to move out with all my marines clumped up in one ball without splitting, onto zerg creep, without pre positioning my tanks so that two fungals can wipe out my army!" "lets also never deny zerg creep after my timing attack, so that it reaches my 4th and I am contained on 3 bases!!"
Whenever I see a Zerg talking about spreading Marines or Vikings out against Fungal, I remember all those times where a Zerg loses 10 Broodlords to one Vortex. And this is something that happens to top Korean Zergs on a regular basis.
But I guess they play Zerg so it's fine.
Stimmed marines moves about 6 times faster than a broodlord. A compareable example would be 10 vikings getting 'caught' in a fungal, which happens to top terrans all the time. Vikings that are smaller and moves way faster.
Lol? You have nothing else to control aside from BLs. You have Fungal. Motherships are pretty much as slow as BLs. They don't exactly come out of nowhere.
How is that relevant to the argument you are trying to make? Avoiding to be caught should surely be easier with a faster unit when you put it up as black and white as you try here..
The situation can dictate other factors, of course.
It's not when a) Terrans have to split a huge number of Marines (i.e. an entire army) rather than just one group and b) Banelings move a lot faster than Motherships.
On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote: no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry.
Never read something more wrong then this. Do you really think all terrans play like that? Players like kas and thorzain do macrobuilds whole the time, just like gumiho and taeja. I (1500 master) do macro builds whole the time. You ever macroed against zerg? You ever had to play against broodlord + infestor?
You should watch a replay of Kas and compare it to a Korean terran. "I am going to move out with all my marines clumped up in one ball without splitting, onto zerg creep, without pre positioning my tanks so that two fungals can wipe out my army!" "lets also never deny zerg creep after my timing attack, so that it reaches my 4th and I am contained on 3 bases!!"
Whenever I see a Zerg talking about spreading Marines or Vikings out against Fungal, I remember all those times where a Zerg loses 10 Broodlords to one Vortex. And this is something that happens to top Korean Zergs on a regular basis.
But I guess they play Zerg so it's fine.
Stimmed marines moves about 6 times faster than a broodlord. A compareable example would be 10 vikings getting 'caught' in a fungal, which happens to top terrans all the time. Vikings that are smaller and moves way faster.
Nobody pre-spreads Marines vs Fungal with Stim, and unstimmed marines move at normal speed. Terrans need to keep their Marines and Vikings constantly spread against multiple Infestors on creep, and this doesn't even give them an advantage, just makes the engagement "even". The only thing a Zerg needs to do is keep his Broodlords reasonably spread against one slow Mothership, with energy for two Vortexes at most, one of which can be forced with a Corruptor suicide squad; avoiding a good Vortex usually wins the game for the Zerg outright. And yet they still can't do it.
On August 08 2012 23:40 aTnClouD wrote: [quote] Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty.
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it.
I have never seen you microing your units properly and horrible players like jonnyrecco win over people like naniwa. If you really think zerg players are better right now then I won't argue with you to pop the fantasy bubble you live in. Just enjoy the nonsense that's going on right now and try to win as much as you can while it lasts.
did you watch how naniwa played that series? jonnyrecco was far better than him in those games.
and if you wanna talk about a fantasy bubble, try looking at terran's win rate in.... all of starcraft2. terran players were just always the superior players right?
Not always, no, but as of late, yes. For the longest time, nobody other than DRG and Nestea were able to compete at the top level, and it wasn't because of imbalance. It was because nobody else seemed to have the mechanical or reactive ability that those two players did. But look at Terran. There have always been like 5-10 truly incredibly mechanical players. Protoss? For a long time it was MC, then some more got added on, and now there's a decent number of pretty awesome mechanically and strategically brilliant Protoss.
I don't even play Terran and have no reason to defend them, but they definitely do have the most truly top level players, just from a mechanical point of view. Right now, there honestly are a few really awesome Zergs who can compete. For some reason, there just don't seem to be a lot of them at the moment. It's not really a balance thing since the most strategically/mechanically skilled Zergs are capable of beating the best players from the other races pretty reliably. But vice versa doesn't seem to be true, and, in fact, some of the better T/P players are basically totally out of their element against Zerg during the late game. If that doesn't say something, nothing does.
Maybe they don't look as impressive mechanically because you don't realize how macro taxing zerg is, just because it's not as showy as splitting marines doesn't mean that the race isn't mechanically difficult.
Whether or not it's taxing isn't relevant. What's relevant is that it isn't a reaction. It's muscle memory. Every ~40 seconds, without fail, you do your Injects. There's no regularity to splitting Marines or using FFs or whatever, which is why so many T/P players lose when they react too late and get all their units Fungaled or get owned by a runby.
Splitting units or using fields is no less based on experience and practice than are injects. Whatever you understand by 'muscle memory', those two certainly fall in the category of being applied without conscious deliberation. It happens in the now on the basis of practice.
What is certain is this: Among the top players, the zergs in general tend to have a higher average APM. DRG, monster, golden, stephano, losira all have higher than 350, most towards 400 apm. I can think of two players lower than 300 on the top level - nestea and leenock. They both struggle when they get to lategame.
The terrans? Taeja reaches 370 apm. MMA, MVP, Puma are all sub 350. Marinking hovers around 250 APM. By far the majority of the code S terrans are sub 300.
Protosses tell the same story, only even more pronounced.
Now, this doesn't mean that playing zerg is the hardest. But it does seem top indicate that to play zerg at the highest level is more mechanically demanding than playing terran or protoss. And that is okay. Maybe the other races takes more deliberation, more thought put into builds or more precision. But the race that requires speed at the highest level? Zerg.
I have no idea where you're getting those numbers, please post some sources. Of the replays I've watched top terrans are always way way way faster, not just in the apm department but without a doubt in the micro and multi tasking department. The main problem is, you can't play terran passively. Playing passively and defending is infinitely easier than playing offensively. Terran is the only race that is required to constantly take swings at their opponent because they don't have anything amazing in the late game, like storm or brood lords (just 2 examples, there are may more).
In any case Zerg requires the least apm and multi tasking to be effective because you don't actually have to do anything. You can just sit on your ass and macro up to the late game defending everything you know the terran is forced to throw at you. Let's be real here, sitting around and focusing 100 percent on making drones, injects and creep spread is not hard. If you're constantly having to fight WHILE doing that stuff then we can talk, but zerg in the current metagame and maps is way easier to play than toss or terran.
^ Consider that Zergs needs the highest APM of all the races and then maybe you will realise why your arguments doesn't work.. you can't just say 'Zerg only needs to do this' .. you are looking at a small part of their APM needs. MKP doesn't have the APM to play zerg at the highest level, he is the king of marine splits/micro. According to the guy who looked into their average APM's
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it.
I have never seen you microing your units properly and horrible players like jonnyrecco win over people like naniwa. If you really think zerg players are better right now then I won't argue with you to pop the fantasy bubble you live in. Just enjoy the nonsense that's going on right now and try to win as much as you can while it lasts.
did you watch how naniwa played that series? jonnyrecco was far better than him in those games.
and if you wanna talk about a fantasy bubble, try looking at terran's win rate in.... all of starcraft2. terran players were just always the superior players right?
Not always, no, but as of late, yes. For the longest time, nobody other than DRG and Nestea were able to compete at the top level, and it wasn't because of imbalance. It was because nobody else seemed to have the mechanical or reactive ability that those two players did. But look at Terran. There have always been like 5-10 truly incredibly mechanical players. Protoss? For a long time it was MC, then some more got added on, and now there's a decent number of pretty awesome mechanically and strategically brilliant Protoss.
I don't even play Terran and have no reason to defend them, but they definitely do have the most truly top level players, just from a mechanical point of view. Right now, there honestly are a few really awesome Zergs who can compete. For some reason, there just don't seem to be a lot of them at the moment. It's not really a balance thing since the most strategically/mechanically skilled Zergs are capable of beating the best players from the other races pretty reliably. But vice versa doesn't seem to be true, and, in fact, some of the better T/P players are basically totally out of their element against Zerg during the late game. If that doesn't say something, nothing does.
Maybe they don't look as impressive mechanically because you don't realize how macro taxing zerg is, just because it's not as showy as splitting marines doesn't mean that the race isn't mechanically difficult.
Whether or not it's taxing isn't relevant. What's relevant is that it isn't a reaction. It's muscle memory. Every ~40 seconds, without fail, you do your Injects. There's no regularity to splitting Marines or using FFs or whatever, which is why so many T/P players lose when they react too late and get all their units Fungaled or get owned by a runby.
Splitting units or using fields is no less based on experience and practice than are injects. Whatever you understand by 'muscle memory', those two certainly fall in the category of being applied without conscious deliberation. It happens in the now on the basis of practice.
What is certain is this: Among the top players, the zergs in general tend to have a higher average APM. DRG, monster, golden, stephano, losira all have higher than 350, most towards 400 apm. I can think of two players lower than 300 on the top level - nestea and leenock. They both struggle when they get to lategame.
The terrans? Taeja reaches 370 apm. MMA, MVP, Puma are all sub 350. Marinking hovers around 250 APM. By far the majority of the code S terrans are sub 300.
Protosses tell the same story, only even more pronounced.
Now, this doesn't mean that playing zerg is the hardest. But it does seem top indicate that to play zerg at the highest level is more mechanically demanding than playing terran or protoss. And that is okay. Maybe the other races takes more deliberation, more thought put into builds or more precision. But the race that requires speed at the highest level? Zerg.
I have no idea where you're getting those numbers, please post some sources. Of the replays I've watched top terrans are always way way way faster, not just in the apm department but without a doubt in the micro and multi tasking department. The main problem is, you can't play terran passively. Playing passively and defending is infinitely easier than playing offensively. Terran is the only race that is required to constantly take swings at their opponent because they don't have anything amazing in the late game, like storm or brood lords (just 2 examples, there are may more).
In any case Zerg requires the least apm and multi tasking to be effective because you don't actually have to do anything. You can just sit on your ass and macro up to the late game defending everything you know the terran is forced to throw at you.
Well, you could always check replays, but I sense that you're on the lazy/preconceived side and have a hard time looking past what you want to be true. Well, check majorleaguegaming.com or redbullusa.com. Both of the sites keep statistics of the players participating in the tournaments.
On August 08 2012 23:44 aTnClouD wrote: [quote] So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe.
youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it.
I have never seen you microing your units properly and horrible players like jonnyrecco win over people like naniwa. If you really think zerg players are better right now then I won't argue with you to pop the fantasy bubble you live in. Just enjoy the nonsense that's going on right now and try to win as much as you can while it lasts.
did you watch how naniwa played that series? jonnyrecco was far better than him in those games.
and if you wanna talk about a fantasy bubble, try looking at terran's win rate in.... all of starcraft2. terran players were just always the superior players right?
Not always, no, but as of late, yes. For the longest time, nobody other than DRG and Nestea were able to compete at the top level, and it wasn't because of imbalance. It was because nobody else seemed to have the mechanical or reactive ability that those two players did. But look at Terran. There have always been like 5-10 truly incredibly mechanical players. Protoss? For a long time it was MC, then some more got added on, and now there's a decent number of pretty awesome mechanically and strategically brilliant Protoss.
I don't even play Terran and have no reason to defend them, but they definitely do have the most truly top level players, just from a mechanical point of view. Right now, there honestly are a few really awesome Zergs who can compete. For some reason, there just don't seem to be a lot of them at the moment. It's not really a balance thing since the most strategically/mechanically skilled Zergs are capable of beating the best players from the other races pretty reliably. But vice versa doesn't seem to be true, and, in fact, some of the better T/P players are basically totally out of their element against Zerg during the late game. If that doesn't say something, nothing does.
Maybe they don't look as impressive mechanically because you don't realize how macro taxing zerg is, just because it's not as showy as splitting marines doesn't mean that the race isn't mechanically difficult.
Whether or not it's taxing isn't relevant. What's relevant is that it isn't a reaction. It's muscle memory. Every ~40 seconds, without fail, you do your Injects. There's no regularity to splitting Marines or using FFs or whatever, which is why so many T/P players lose when they react too late and get all their units Fungaled or get owned by a runby.
Splitting units or using fields is no less based on experience and practice than are injects. Whatever you understand by 'muscle memory', those two certainly fall in the category of being applied without conscious deliberation. It happens in the now on the basis of practice.
What is certain is this: Among the top players, the zergs in general tend to have a higher average APM. DRG, monster, golden, stephano, losira all have higher than 350, most towards 400 apm. I can think of two players lower than 300 on the top level - nestea and leenock. They both struggle when they get to lategame.
The terrans? Taeja reaches 370 apm. MMA, MVP, Puma are all sub 350. Marinking hovers around 250 APM. By far the majority of the code S terrans are sub 300.
Protosses tell the same story, only even more pronounced.
Now, this doesn't mean that playing zerg is the hardest. But it does seem top indicate that to play zerg at the highest level is more mechanically demanding than playing terran or protoss. And that is okay. Maybe the other races takes more deliberation, more thought put into builds or more precision. But the race that requires speed at the highest level? Zerg.
I have no idea where you're getting those numbers, please post some sources. Of the replays I've watched top terrans are always way way way faster, not just in the apm department but without a doubt in the micro and multi tasking department. The main problem is, you can't play terran passively. Playing passively and defending is infinitely easier than playing offensively. Terran is the only race that is required to constantly take swings at their opponent because they don't have anything amazing in the late game, like storm or brood lords (just 2 examples, there are may more).
In any case Zerg requires the least apm and multi tasking to be effective because you don't actually have to do anything. You can just sit on your ass and macro up to the late game defending everything you know the terran is forced to throw at you.
Well, you could always check replays, but I sense that you're on the lazy/preconceived side and have a hard time looking past what you want to be true. Well, check majorleaguegaming.com or redbullusa.com. Both of the sites keep statistics of the players participating in the tournaments.
On August 08 2012 23:51 IdrA wrote: [quote] youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it.
I have never seen you microing your units properly and horrible players like jonnyrecco win over people like naniwa. If you really think zerg players are better right now then I won't argue with you to pop the fantasy bubble you live in. Just enjoy the nonsense that's going on right now and try to win as much as you can while it lasts.
did you watch how naniwa played that series? jonnyrecco was far better than him in those games.
and if you wanna talk about a fantasy bubble, try looking at terran's win rate in.... all of starcraft2. terran players were just always the superior players right?
Not always, no, but as of late, yes. For the longest time, nobody other than DRG and Nestea were able to compete at the top level, and it wasn't because of imbalance. It was because nobody else seemed to have the mechanical or reactive ability that those two players did. But look at Terran. There have always been like 5-10 truly incredibly mechanical players. Protoss? For a long time it was MC, then some more got added on, and now there's a decent number of pretty awesome mechanically and strategically brilliant Protoss.
I don't even play Terran and have no reason to defend them, but they definitely do have the most truly top level players, just from a mechanical point of view. Right now, there honestly are a few really awesome Zergs who can compete. For some reason, there just don't seem to be a lot of them at the moment. It's not really a balance thing since the most strategically/mechanically skilled Zergs are capable of beating the best players from the other races pretty reliably. But vice versa doesn't seem to be true, and, in fact, some of the better T/P players are basically totally out of their element against Zerg during the late game. If that doesn't say something, nothing does.
Maybe they don't look as impressive mechanically because you don't realize how macro taxing zerg is, just because it's not as showy as splitting marines doesn't mean that the race isn't mechanically difficult.
Whether or not it's taxing isn't relevant. What's relevant is that it isn't a reaction. It's muscle memory. Every ~40 seconds, without fail, you do your Injects. There's no regularity to splitting Marines or using FFs or whatever, which is why so many T/P players lose when they react too late and get all their units Fungaled or get owned by a runby.
Splitting units or using fields is no less based on experience and practice than are injects. Whatever you understand by 'muscle memory', those two certainly fall in the category of being applied without conscious deliberation. It happens in the now on the basis of practice.
What is certain is this: Among the top players, the zergs in general tend to have a higher average APM. DRG, monster, golden, stephano, losira all have higher than 350, most towards 400 apm. I can think of two players lower than 300 on the top level - nestea and leenock. They both struggle when they get to lategame.
The terrans? Taeja reaches 370 apm. MMA, MVP, Puma are all sub 350. Marinking hovers around 250 APM. By far the majority of the code S terrans are sub 300.
Protosses tell the same story, only even more pronounced.
Now, this doesn't mean that playing zerg is the hardest. But it does seem top indicate that to play zerg at the highest level is more mechanically demanding than playing terran or protoss. And that is okay. Maybe the other races takes more deliberation, more thought put into builds or more precision. But the race that requires speed at the highest level? Zerg.
I have no idea where you're getting those numbers, please post some sources. Of the replays I've watched top terrans are always way way way faster, not just in the apm department but without a doubt in the micro and multi tasking department. The main problem is, you can't play terran passively. Playing passively and defending is infinitely easier than playing offensively. Terran is the only race that is required to constantly take swings at their opponent because they don't have anything amazing in the late game, like storm or brood lords (just 2 examples, there are may more).
In any case Zerg requires the least apm and multi tasking to be effective because you don't actually have to do anything. You can just sit on your ass and macro up to the late game defending everything you know the terran is forced to throw at you.
Well, you could always check replays, but I sense that you're on the lazy/preconceived side and have a hard time looking past what you want to be true. Well, check majorleaguegaming.com or redbullusa.com. Both of the sites keep statistics of the players participating in the tournaments.
On August 08 2012 23:54 aTnClouD wrote: [quote] I have never seen you microing your units properly and horrible players like jonnyrecco win over people like naniwa. If you really think zerg players are better right now then I won't argue with you to pop the fantasy bubble you live in. Just enjoy the nonsense that's going on right now and try to win as much as you can while it lasts.
did you watch how naniwa played that series? jonnyrecco was far better than him in those games.
and if you wanna talk about a fantasy bubble, try looking at terran's win rate in.... all of starcraft2. terran players were just always the superior players right?
Not always, no, but as of late, yes. For the longest time, nobody other than DRG and Nestea were able to compete at the top level, and it wasn't because of imbalance. It was because nobody else seemed to have the mechanical or reactive ability that those two players did. But look at Terran. There have always been like 5-10 truly incredibly mechanical players. Protoss? For a long time it was MC, then some more got added on, and now there's a decent number of pretty awesome mechanically and strategically brilliant Protoss.
I don't even play Terran and have no reason to defend them, but they definitely do have the most truly top level players, just from a mechanical point of view. Right now, there honestly are a few really awesome Zergs who can compete. For some reason, there just don't seem to be a lot of them at the moment. It's not really a balance thing since the most strategically/mechanically skilled Zergs are capable of beating the best players from the other races pretty reliably. But vice versa doesn't seem to be true, and, in fact, some of the better T/P players are basically totally out of their element against Zerg during the late game. If that doesn't say something, nothing does.
Maybe they don't look as impressive mechanically because you don't realize how macro taxing zerg is, just because it's not as showy as splitting marines doesn't mean that the race isn't mechanically difficult.
Whether or not it's taxing isn't relevant. What's relevant is that it isn't a reaction. It's muscle memory. Every ~40 seconds, without fail, you do your Injects. There's no regularity to splitting Marines or using FFs or whatever, which is why so many T/P players lose when they react too late and get all their units Fungaled or get owned by a runby.
Splitting units or using fields is no less based on experience and practice than are injects. Whatever you understand by 'muscle memory', those two certainly fall in the category of being applied without conscious deliberation. It happens in the now on the basis of practice.
What is certain is this: Among the top players, the zergs in general tend to have a higher average APM. DRG, monster, golden, stephano, losira all have higher than 350, most towards 400 apm. I can think of two players lower than 300 on the top level - nestea and leenock. They both struggle when they get to lategame.
The terrans? Taeja reaches 370 apm. MMA, MVP, Puma are all sub 350. Marinking hovers around 250 APM. By far the majority of the code S terrans are sub 300.
Protosses tell the same story, only even more pronounced.
Now, this doesn't mean that playing zerg is the hardest. But it does seem top indicate that to play zerg at the highest level is more mechanically demanding than playing terran or protoss. And that is okay. Maybe the other races takes more deliberation, more thought put into builds or more precision. But the race that requires speed at the highest level? Zerg.
I have no idea where you're getting those numbers, please post some sources. Of the replays I've watched top terrans are always way way way faster, not just in the apm department but without a doubt in the micro and multi tasking department. The main problem is, you can't play terran passively. Playing passively and defending is infinitely easier than playing offensively. Terran is the only race that is required to constantly take swings at their opponent because they don't have anything amazing in the late game, like storm or brood lords (just 2 examples, there are may more).
In any case Zerg requires the least apm and multi tasking to be effective because you don't actually have to do anything. You can just sit on your ass and macro up to the late game defending everything you know the terran is forced to throw at you.
Well, you could always check replays, but I sense that you're on the lazy/preconceived side and have a hard time looking past what you want to be true. Well, check majorleaguegaming.com or redbullusa.com. Both of the sites keep statistics of the players participating in the tournaments.
Check other profiles on the site to compare. MKP who is regarded to have the most pristine bio micro according to many fans is actually quite 'slow'.
MKP is a timing attack oriented player, no one has ever claimed he is a mechanical genius like DRG. That said, those numbers are way too high from all the replays ive seen of both players (probably 50 drg replays and 100 + mkp replays). MKP's average apm seems to float around 180ish and drg around 250ish.
Players like MMA, MVP, Keen, ST. Hack, even Bomber, these guys all have around 250-300ish average apm consistently and they are definitely less timing attack oriented than marine king. Not that they don't throw in some cheese, but my point is you just compared literally the biggest Zerg beast in the entire game with a brainy micro player.
On August 08 2012 23:55 IdrA wrote: [quote] did you watch how naniwa played that series? jonnyrecco was far better than him in those games.
and if you wanna talk about a fantasy bubble, try looking at terran's win rate in.... all of starcraft2. terran players were just always the superior players right?
Not always, no, but as of late, yes. For the longest time, nobody other than DRG and Nestea were able to compete at the top level, and it wasn't because of imbalance. It was because nobody else seemed to have the mechanical or reactive ability that those two players did. But look at Terran. There have always been like 5-10 truly incredibly mechanical players. Protoss? For a long time it was MC, then some more got added on, and now there's a decent number of pretty awesome mechanically and strategically brilliant Protoss.
I don't even play Terran and have no reason to defend them, but they definitely do have the most truly top level players, just from a mechanical point of view. Right now, there honestly are a few really awesome Zergs who can compete. For some reason, there just don't seem to be a lot of them at the moment. It's not really a balance thing since the most strategically/mechanically skilled Zergs are capable of beating the best players from the other races pretty reliably. But vice versa doesn't seem to be true, and, in fact, some of the better T/P players are basically totally out of their element against Zerg during the late game. If that doesn't say something, nothing does.
Maybe they don't look as impressive mechanically because you don't realize how macro taxing zerg is, just because it's not as showy as splitting marines doesn't mean that the race isn't mechanically difficult.
Whether or not it's taxing isn't relevant. What's relevant is that it isn't a reaction. It's muscle memory. Every ~40 seconds, without fail, you do your Injects. There's no regularity to splitting Marines or using FFs or whatever, which is why so many T/P players lose when they react too late and get all their units Fungaled or get owned by a runby.
Splitting units or using fields is no less based on experience and practice than are injects. Whatever you understand by 'muscle memory', those two certainly fall in the category of being applied without conscious deliberation. It happens in the now on the basis of practice.
What is certain is this: Among the top players, the zergs in general tend to have a higher average APM. DRG, monster, golden, stephano, losira all have higher than 350, most towards 400 apm. I can think of two players lower than 300 on the top level - nestea and leenock. They both struggle when they get to lategame.
The terrans? Taeja reaches 370 apm. MMA, MVP, Puma are all sub 350. Marinking hovers around 250 APM. By far the majority of the code S terrans are sub 300.
Protosses tell the same story, only even more pronounced.
Now, this doesn't mean that playing zerg is the hardest. But it does seem top indicate that to play zerg at the highest level is more mechanically demanding than playing terran or protoss. And that is okay. Maybe the other races takes more deliberation, more thought put into builds or more precision. But the race that requires speed at the highest level? Zerg.
I have no idea where you're getting those numbers, please post some sources. Of the replays I've watched top terrans are always way way way faster, not just in the apm department but without a doubt in the micro and multi tasking department. The main problem is, you can't play terran passively. Playing passively and defending is infinitely easier than playing offensively. Terran is the only race that is required to constantly take swings at their opponent because they don't have anything amazing in the late game, like storm or brood lords (just 2 examples, there are may more).
In any case Zerg requires the least apm and multi tasking to be effective because you don't actually have to do anything. You can just sit on your ass and macro up to the late game defending everything you know the terran is forced to throw at you.
Well, you could always check replays, but I sense that you're on the lazy/preconceived side and have a hard time looking past what you want to be true. Well, check majorleaguegaming.com or redbullusa.com. Both of the sites keep statistics of the players participating in the tournaments.
Check other profiles on the site to compare. MKP who is regarded to have the most pristine bio micro according to many fans is actually quite 'slow'.
MKP is a timing attack oriented player, no one has ever claimed he is a mechanical genius like DRG. That said, those numbers are way too high from all the replays ive seen of both players (probably 50 drg replays and 100 + mkp replays). MKP's average apm seems to float around 180ish and drg around 250ish.
I think it's a safe bet to believe the MLG stats over what you want to be the truth based on replays you watched. Remember that a marinesplit is a much more 'obvious' APM usage than so many others, especially macro actions. I would consider if I was taking my beliefs a bit too far if I ended up denying even MLG stats on stuff like this.
Lol DRG has a very high apm but only half of it is his eApm, MKP is on the other hand the pro player with the least redundancy (Spam). Almost every zerg have high redundancy, with high apm and not so high eApm. Protoss players have less eapm in general because of how the races work. But since eAPM has nothing to do with mechanics it's a pretty pointless debate lol.
On August 11 2012 03:47 Shiori wrote: [quote] Not always, no, but as of late, yes. For the longest time, nobody other than DRG and Nestea were able to compete at the top level, and it wasn't because of imbalance. It was because nobody else seemed to have the mechanical or reactive ability that those two players did. But look at Terran. There have always been like 5-10 truly incredibly mechanical players. Protoss? For a long time it was MC, then some more got added on, and now there's a decent number of pretty awesome mechanically and strategically brilliant Protoss.
I don't even play Terran and have no reason to defend them, but they definitely do have the most truly top level players, just from a mechanical point of view. Right now, there honestly are a few really awesome Zergs who can compete. For some reason, there just don't seem to be a lot of them at the moment. It's not really a balance thing since the most strategically/mechanically skilled Zergs are capable of beating the best players from the other races pretty reliably. But vice versa doesn't seem to be true, and, in fact, some of the better T/P players are basically totally out of their element against Zerg during the late game. If that doesn't say something, nothing does.
Maybe they don't look as impressive mechanically because you don't realize how macro taxing zerg is, just because it's not as showy as splitting marines doesn't mean that the race isn't mechanically difficult.
Whether or not it's taxing isn't relevant. What's relevant is that it isn't a reaction. It's muscle memory. Every ~40 seconds, without fail, you do your Injects. There's no regularity to splitting Marines or using FFs or whatever, which is why so many T/P players lose when they react too late and get all their units Fungaled or get owned by a runby.
Splitting units or using fields is no less based on experience and practice than are injects. Whatever you understand by 'muscle memory', those two certainly fall in the category of being applied without conscious deliberation. It happens in the now on the basis of practice.
What is certain is this: Among the top players, the zergs in general tend to have a higher average APM. DRG, monster, golden, stephano, losira all have higher than 350, most towards 400 apm. I can think of two players lower than 300 on the top level - nestea and leenock. They both struggle when they get to lategame.
The terrans? Taeja reaches 370 apm. MMA, MVP, Puma are all sub 350. Marinking hovers around 250 APM. By far the majority of the code S terrans are sub 300.
Protosses tell the same story, only even more pronounced.
Now, this doesn't mean that playing zerg is the hardest. But it does seem top indicate that to play zerg at the highest level is more mechanically demanding than playing terran or protoss. And that is okay. Maybe the other races takes more deliberation, more thought put into builds or more precision. But the race that requires speed at the highest level? Zerg.
I have no idea where you're getting those numbers, please post some sources. Of the replays I've watched top terrans are always way way way faster, not just in the apm department but without a doubt in the micro and multi tasking department. The main problem is, you can't play terran passively. Playing passively and defending is infinitely easier than playing offensively. Terran is the only race that is required to constantly take swings at their opponent because they don't have anything amazing in the late game, like storm or brood lords (just 2 examples, there are may more).
In any case Zerg requires the least apm and multi tasking to be effective because you don't actually have to do anything. You can just sit on your ass and macro up to the late game defending everything you know the terran is forced to throw at you.
Well, you could always check replays, but I sense that you're on the lazy/preconceived side and have a hard time looking past what you want to be true. Well, check majorleaguegaming.com or redbullusa.com. Both of the sites keep statistics of the players participating in the tournaments.
Check other profiles on the site to compare. MKP who is regarded to have the most pristine bio micro according to many fans is actually quite 'slow'.
MKP is a timing attack oriented player, no one has ever claimed he is a mechanical genius like DRG. That said, those numbers are way too high from all the replays ive seen of both players (probably 50 drg replays and 100 + mkp replays). MKP's average apm seems to float around 180ish and drg around 250ish.
I think it's a safe bet to believe the MLG stats over what you want to be the truth based on replays you watched. Remember that a marinesplit is a much more 'obvious' APM usage than so many others, especially macro actions. I would consider if I was taking my beliefs a bit too far if I ended up denying even MLG stats on stuff like this.
I don't WANT anything to be the truth, it just is. Those numbers are not right. Go download some MLG replays yourself if you don't believe me.
On August 12 2012 10:32 BBMorti wrote: ^ Consider that Zergs needs the highest APM of all the races and then maybe you will realise why your arguments doesn't work.. you can't just say 'Zerg only needs to do this' .. you are looking at a small part of their APM needs. MKP doesn't have the APM to play zerg at the highest level, he is the king of marine splits/micro. According to the guy who looked into their average APM's
I saw that FP VoD of Moon playing at Assembly with his 400+ apm, and he was basically just spamming, clicking 10 times to set a rally point and other useless crap like that. In your opinion, what exactly does Zerg need to spend apm on in ZvP lategame, that is more important than spreading their Broodlords?
This reminds me of 2010 when Zerg was 40% against terran. And terran's arguement was "Well, Terran players are just better than Zergs! Zerg players just need to L2P!!!"
And now that Zerg has 55%... "OMG TERRAN IS WEAK! ZERG IS OP!" While Zerg are saying "Well, Foriegn Zerg players are just better than Foriegn Terrans! Terran players just need to L2P!!!"
x-x
Even with a 5% difference...that's very balanced...
Has there been any discussion as to the reason why Zergs have seen a recent jump in win % is because of a better map pool? Two years into the game, the map pool is just so much more developed, especially towards macro-friendly maps. It's only in recent BNet ladder seasons that we've FINALLY seen those last few maps with rocks at 3rds gone (just as an example), which may have lead to the overally perceived feeling that Zerg is "OP"?
On August 12 2012 10:32 BBMorti wrote: ^ Consider that Zergs needs the highest APM of all the races and then maybe you will realise why your arguments doesn't work.. you can't just say 'Zerg only needs to do this' .. you are looking at a small part of their APM needs. MKP doesn't have the APM to play zerg at the highest level, he is the king of marine splits/micro. According to the guy who looked into their average APM's
what are you talking about? do you have any evidence to back up all these claims, friend
On August 12 2012 10:32 BBMorti wrote: ^ Consider that Zergs needs the highest APM of all the races and then maybe you will realise why your arguments doesn't work.. you can't just say 'Zerg only needs to do this' .. you are looking at a small part of their APM needs. MKP doesn't have the APM to play zerg at the highest level, he is the king of marine splits/micro. According to the guy who looked into their average APM's
what are you talking about? do you have any evidence to back up all these claims, friend
Of course he does not. Most of the top korean pros play all races on ladder. MVP for instance plays zerg on ladder, there are quotes from interviews saying that MC has some of the best zerg in world. I can guarantee MKP has more than enough APM to play zerg at the highest level.
On August 12 2012 10:32 BBMorti wrote: ^ Consider that Zergs needs the highest APM of all the races and then maybe you will realise why your arguments doesn't work.. you can't just say 'Zerg only needs to do this' .. you are looking at a small part of their APM needs. MKP doesn't have the APM to play zerg at the highest level, he is the king of marine splits/micro. According to the guy who looked into their average APM's
On August 12 2012 10:32 BBMorti wrote: ^ Consider that Zergs needs the highest APM of all the races and then maybe you will realise why your arguments doesn't work.. you can't just say 'Zerg only needs to do this' .. you are looking at a small part of their APM needs. MKP doesn't have the APM to play zerg at the highest level, he is the king of marine splits/micro. According to the guy who looked into their average APM's
I spit water on my keyboard haha
10/10 excellent troll, i expect alot of bites
I spent a while contemplating it, but once I read his other posts I started to doubt he was actually trolling, or is it a trolling account? I don't know, but either he has been messing around for his last few posts too or he actually believes what he said. I think the best trolls still are somewhat obvious, otherwise people won't know and assume you are stupid.
On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote: no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry.
Never read something more wrong then this. Do you really think all terrans play like that? Players like kas and thorzain do macrobuilds whole the time, just like gumiho and taeja. I (1500 master) do macro builds whole the time. You ever macroed against zerg? You ever had to play against broodlord + infestor?
You should watch a replay of Kas and compare it to a Korean terran. "I am going to move out with all my marines clumped up in one ball without splitting, onto zerg creep, without pre positioning my tanks so that two fungals can wipe out my army!" "lets also never deny zerg creep after my timing attack, so that it reaches my 4th and I am contained on 3 bases!!"
Whenever I see a Zerg talking about spreading Marines or Vikings out against Fungal, I remember all those times where a Zerg loses 10 Broodlords to one Vortex. And this is something that happens to top Korean Zergs on a regular basis.
But I guess they play Zerg so it's fine.
Just cause they're korean, it doesn't make them decent. Now, stephano splits his broodlords really well, which is one of the many reasons why he's so good. If I ever get more than 4 broodlords vortexed and lose the game because of that, I've got myself to blame. Also terran has EMP and snipe, both of which *gasp* (HOLY SHIT WTF OMG TERRAN CAN COUNTER FUNGALS IF THEY BUILD SOMETHING OTHER THAN MARINES? NO FUCKING WAY) has longer range than fungals!! btw I heard seeker missiles were pretty good too.
On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote: no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry.
Never read something more wrong then this. Do you really think all terrans play like that? Players like kas and thorzain do macrobuilds whole the time, just like gumiho and taeja. I (1500 master) do macro builds whole the time. You ever macroed against zerg? You ever had to play against broodlord + infestor?
You should watch a replay of Kas and compare it to a Korean terran. "I am going to move out with all my marines clumped up in one ball without splitting, onto zerg creep, without pre positioning my tanks so that two fungals can wipe out my army!" "lets also never deny zerg creep after my timing attack, so that it reaches my 4th and I am contained on 3 bases!!"
Whenever I see a Zerg talking about spreading Marines or Vikings out against Fungal, I remember all those times where a Zerg loses 10 Broodlords to one Vortex. And this is something that happens to top Korean Zergs on a regular basis.
But I guess they play Zerg so it's fine.
There's a 8 marine drop in my main ! Quickly, Send my whole army to defend aaaarghh !
Yeah, Zerg players seems to have a lot to learn still.
On August 12 2012 10:49 Shiori wrote: It's pointless to compare APMs. Zerg gets massive APM boost from Inject/Creep/Overlord split etc. etc. T/P have no comparable sink.
Actually it's because when you make a lot of units at once as zerg and hold down a button it counts each unit queued as a separate click so it inflates to 1000 easily.
On August 12 2012 18:18 TsGBruzze wrote: hmm am i the only one who actually thinks that this is a pretty balanced game? :O
Nah you're not alone. Right now it's pretty good. Some match up are terrible to watch even when balanced tho, ZvP first. TvZ is fine, people just need to copy the hell out of TaeJa's builds. Even with lesser controls they're very good.
On August 12 2012 18:18 TsGBruzze wrote: hmm am i the only one who actually thinks that this is a pretty balanced game? :O
Nah you're not alone. Right now it's pretty good. Some match up are terrible to watch even when balanced tho, ZvP first. TvZ is fine, people just need to copy the hell out of TaeJa's builds. Even with lesser controls they're very good.
On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote: no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry.
Never read something more wrong then this. Do you really think all terrans play like that? Players like kas and thorzain do macrobuilds whole the time, just like gumiho and taeja. I (1500 master) do macro builds whole the time. You ever macroed against zerg? You ever had to play against broodlord + infestor?
You should watch a replay of Kas and compare it to a Korean terran. "I am going to move out with all my marines clumped up in one ball without splitting, onto zerg creep, without pre positioning my tanks so that two fungals can wipe out my army!" "lets also never deny zerg creep after my timing attack, so that it reaches my 4th and I am contained on 3 bases!!"
Whenever I see a Zerg talking about spreading Marines or Vikings out against Fungal, I remember all those times where a Zerg loses 10 Broodlords to one Vortex. And this is something that happens to top Korean Zergs on a regular basis.
But I guess they play Zerg so it's fine.
Just cause they're korean, it doesn't make them decent. Now, stephano splits his broodlords really well, which is one of the many reasons why he's so good. If I ever get more than 4 broodlords vortexed and lose the game because of that, I've got myself to blame. Also terran has EMP and snipe, both of which *gasp* (HOLY SHIT WTF OMG TERRAN CAN COUNTER FUNGALS IF THEY BUILD SOMETHING OTHER THAN MARINES? NO FUCKING WAY) has longer range than fungals!! btw I heard seeker missiles were pretty good too.
How about you get your facts straight? Fungal outranges snipe by one. (9+2 vs 10) EMP outrages fungal by .5 (10+1.5 vs 9+2)
So only EMP outranges fungal and that only by .5. Given the speed of an infestor on creep, it most likely means that the infestor will close the .5 gap and cast fungal (which is instant) while the EMP round is in flight.
Now I realize, that you indicate with your last sentence, that your post isn't serious. Yet I had to clarify, as there are impressionable Zergies around, that will gobble up your post and spew it back later.
Because Zerg dont want to fungal as may units as possible but catch one ghost with the outer line of the radius... seems legit as I can see this in TvP all the time... Toss doesnt want to catch as many units in a storm as possible, the just want to kill that one lonely hero marine at the edge of the template.
Please don't comprae HT straight with infestors... HT vs ghost is NOT like infestor vs ghost, because HTs can feedback what kills your ghosts and doesn't use that much energy so they can storm most of the times. So ghosts should do better vs zrg with infestor than vs protoss with ht...
Problem with this is, that ghosts are pretty expensive and they are pretty useless unless you can kill the infestors or it is so late in the game when you can use them for nukes.
On August 12 2012 14:11 EvanC wrote: Has there been any discussion as to the reason why Zergs have seen a recent jump in win % is because of a better map pool? Two years into the game, the map pool is just so much more developed, especially towards macro-friendly maps. It's only in recent BNet ladder seasons that we've FINALLY seen those last few maps with rocks at 3rds gone (just as an example), which may have lead to the overally perceived feeling that Zerg is "OP"?
I've put this theory out before as well, it's really a combination of a bunch of other factors as well.
1. Faster overlords, even on big maps they can get into good positions and spot pushouts pretty early. Terran especially have to really hide what they're doing if it's some kind of marine poke, or a hellion poke etc. Overlords can now get good scouts off, even on the huge maps that naturally are conducive to Zerg strengths. 2. Queens are a better catch-all defence now. Even if you are caught with your pants down as a Zerg, it's a pretty robust defensive unit. 3. The maps are bigger, so it's pretty tough. As a Terran you're going to want to stop the Zerg just droning incessantly and you'll have to do some kind of pressure unless you're doing one of those insane macro mode builds that only Korean Ts seem to be able to do. That pressure is easier scouted, and if it isn't scouted at all, is still defended better blindly than before with the Queen buff.
Swap 'macro-friendly' for 'Zerg favoured' in most instances and that's how I generally feel about the progression in the map pool. The problem is that the maps that are good for Toss (which I play), are in my view TOO good for the race. For example Entombed Valley is pretty damn easy for Toss if you play it out competently.
On the APM issue, it's pretty overstated. Also MKP is known for being a freak with his APM efficiency, he's got a much lower ratio of redundant actions compared to pretty much everyone.
Zerg played competently, will naturally give you high APM especially if you're going with ling-based styles. You build more units = higher APM. Doesn't mean you're doing anything spectacular Terran scales best imo with high APM, and in fact pretty much can't be played to the highest level without it. When you do have that APM though, you can really get cost efficient with your units which I think is pretty cool. Protoss and high APM values say little. If I was to ask people who they instinctively thought were the 'fast' Protoss players, I believe I'd get a pretty wide spread of answers, many of them wrong. It's so hard to do anything useful with additional APM due to how the race is designed.
On August 12 2012 10:32 BBMorti wrote: ^ Consider that Zergs needs the highest APM of all the races and then maybe you will realise why your arguments doesn't work.. you can't just say 'Zerg only needs to do this' .. you are looking at a small part of their APM needs. MKP doesn't have the APM to play zerg at the highest level, he is the king of marine splits/micro. According to the guy who looked into their average APM's
you dont know how apm works, do you? edit: or nvm, probably just trolling around
On August 12 2012 18:18 TsGBruzze wrote: hmm am i the only one who actually thinks that this is a pretty balanced game? :O
I think it's a pretty balanced game unless you're a pro.
II disagree. On lower levels Protoss has a lot of advantage, because it's the easiest race to learn. Then Zerg then Terran. Around Diamond-Master level it equalizes and then at pro level Zerg has slight advantage, but only slight.
It's hard to understand how Zergs don't admit that at mainstream level (so everything that doesn't include 250 eapm koreans) ZvT is becoming a seriously broken match up... A lot of Ts were admitting the inherent imbalance of ghosts in late game a few months ago.
On August 12 2012 18:18 TsGBruzze wrote: hmm am i the only one who actually thinks that this is a pretty balanced game? :O
I think it's a pretty balanced game unless you're a pro.
II disagree. On lower levels Protoss has a lot of advantage, because it's the easiest race to learn. Then Zerg then Terran. Around Diamond-Master level it equalizes and then at pro level Zerg has slight advantage, but only slight.
Mid-Masters - GM (non-Korean) is pretty Zergy too.
On August 12 2012 18:24 Noocta wrote: TvZ is fine, people just need to copy the hell out of TaeJa's builds. Even with lesser controls they're very good.
So much this. Taeja is a monster, and I absolutely love the way he plays (all the matchups, but TvZ in particular). The conditional things he puts in to ward off the common Zerg busts and tactics in addition to huge macro long-term plays is mind-blowing.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0fwpyh.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KGYMYh.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HNrRa.jpg)
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