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On August 09 2012 03:13 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 23:48 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:46 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:45 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:44 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:40 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:39 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:38 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote:
Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate. Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon. are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?  Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty. but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe. so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right? Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick. No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry. If this logic was actually something Blizzard followed, the queen buff would NEVER have happened, and neither would most of the terran nerfs. Blizzard is babysitting the shit out of zerg and protoss because the races got a low skill cap. The ones who suffer are terrans, people who actually put in the time to practice the game, the entirety of the SC2 community that wants to watch and play good games, and anyone not at korean T level of play.
Wah wah wah my race is the hardest to play with the highest skill cap, thats why i suck. Other races are easy, if i were zerg or protoss i would have won a bajillion gsls already.
That is what i got out of your post.
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Using the same builds is Taeja is one thing, having his unit control, map awareness and game sense is what I'm working on now. 
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On August 08 2012 23:51 nkr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 23:50 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:48 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:46 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:45 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:44 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:40 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:39 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:38 aTnClouD wrote:
[quote]
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon. are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea? Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty. but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe. so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right? Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick. No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry. I'll follow the advice of the guy above you, I'll just stop posting here cause it seems idiocy is rampant. Besides, having a perfectly balanced game at the top and below is possible, koreans will be good no matter what as long as the game balance remains the same, all Blizzard has to do is making zerg mechanics harder so it's a more challenging race to play. If zerg was such an easy race then amazing players like DRG, NesTea and soon Jaedong would have won and will win every tournament. That's not the case.
How is ease to play relevant in the scenario at the top? Just because a race is easier to play does not make it inherently stronger.
For example, although we all know APM isn't a direct correlation to skill/performance, let's say it was and by some ungodly scenario it could be with objective numbers.
Say Terran benefits most from APM increases. A Terran with 150 APM might have a skill/performance of "75". A Terran with 250 APM might have a skill/performance of 90, and a Terran with 350 APM might have a skill/performance of 95.
At the same time, a Zerg with 150 APM might be able to perform at a skill level of 85. A Zerg with 250 APM might be able to perform at a skill/performance of 93, and a Zerg with 350 APM might have a skill/performance of 95.
Assuming there is no benefit to going beyond 350 APM (for simplicity's sake), we could say that TvZ is balanced at the highest level, yet anywhere below the highest level Zerg is going to perform much better than Terran. It's easier to play at a lower level. This does NOT affect the top tier you mentioned, such as Nestea, DRG, etc. It only affects those below. Zerg at the very top might be just as hard to play as Terran, it's just that it's a lot easier to get "near" the top with Zerg and much less skill than with Terran.
Hopefully that made sense, no time to edit since my lunch break just ended.
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I think Zerg is totally imbalanced! Every ZvZ I play the zerg always wins...people are complaining about a 47-53% winrate....we got a 100% zerg winrate over here and people dont seem to care!
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so what this means is that the metagame is closer to balanced and that people can't take out all frustration on zerg! AMEN
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I have no idea what race is imbalanced. I think that the strategic depth of Zerg strategies is lacking in the non-mirror, just because there are a couple of do-all builds that require little more than rote memorization of reactions. Of course, it's not so much a balance thing so much as it is boring and simplistic, which I think stunts innovation and makes the metagame extremely dry.
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On August 09 2012 04:49 Shiori wrote:
I have no idea what race is imbalanced. I think that the strategic depth of Zerg strategies is lacking in the non-mirror, just because there are a couple of do-all builds that require little more than rote memorization of reactions. Of course, it's not so much a balance thing so much as it is boring and simplistic, which I think stunts innovation and makes the metagame extremely dry.
easy solution: broods now shoot BANELINGS
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On August 09 2012 04:29 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 23:51 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:50 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:48 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:46 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:45 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:44 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:40 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:39 nkr wrote:[quote] are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea? Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty. but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe. so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right? Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick. No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry. I'll follow the advice of the guy above you, I'll just stop posting here cause it seems idiocy is rampant. Besides, having a perfectly balanced game at the top and below is possible, koreans will be good no matter what as long as the game balance remains the same, all Blizzard has to do is making zerg mechanics harder so it's a more challenging race to play. If zerg was such an easy race then amazing players like DRG, NesTea and soon Jaedong would have won and will win every tournament. That's not the case. How is ease to play relevant in the scenario at the top? Just because a race is easier to play does not make it inherently stronger. For example, although we all know APM isn't a direct correlation to skill/performance, let's say it was and by some ungodly scenario it could be with objective numbers. Say Terran benefits most from APM increases. A Terran with 150 APM might have a skill/performance of "75". A Terran with 250 APM might have a skill/performance of 90, and a Terran with 350 APM might have a skill/performance of 95. At the same time, a Zerg with 150 APM might be able to perform at a skill level of 85. A Zerg with 250 APM might be able to perform at a skill/performance of 93, and a Zerg with 350 APM might have a skill/performance of 95. Assuming there is no benefit to going beyond 350 APM (for simplicity's sake), we could say that TvZ is balanced at the highest level, yet anywhere below the highest level Zerg is going to perform much better than Terran. It's easier to play at a lower level. This does NOT affect the top tier you mentioned, such as Nestea, DRG, etc. It only affects those below. Zerg at the very top might be just as hard to play as Terran, it's just that it's a lot easier to get "near" the top with Zerg and much less skill than with Terran. Hopefully that made sense, no time to edit since my lunch break just ended.
Thank you. Someone who can think beyond GSL race distribution as if Zerg and Protoss didnt win GSLs while being underrepresented.
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According to some people here, any terran pro that is not top tier Korean player, which currently means Taeja, Alive, Byun and MKP, maybe Gumiho, should just stop playing because even though they probably practice as hard as their zerg and protoss colleagues, they simply suck at this game.
Overall, there is less terrans in finishing rounds of tournaments,there is less terrans winning tournaments, there is less pro terran streamers, there is less terrans who are actually candidates for winning anything (atm Taeja is probably the only one), terran is underrepresented in ladder all the way to gm etc.
People need to look at this realistically, numbers don't lie, opinions of people based on their view of the matchup from their ladder experience don't >>> facts. This is hurting sc2 and so called esports.
International wr is composed of both international and Korean tournament win rates, you also have worldwide gm player representation. We now have 3 months of data and anyone who says TvZ is ok is actually hurting this game.
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On August 09 2012 03:46 Dalavita wrote:
Reminder that foreign terrans are simply worse than their zerg/protoss buddies, whereas korean terrans can't possibly be better than korean zergs/protosses.
Flawless logic coming from our alien players since the release of SC2.
Sad but true...
"besides thorzain and kas no one else is good compared to other foreign races!"
"but taeja, mkp, mma, mvp aren't actually BETTER than others, it's just the race!"
it really irks me
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Nerfs and buffs aside--
The way that Terran was designed--that is, to take advantage of timings, exploit terrain, etc--is an advantage that was going to have diminishing returns as players developed a familiarity with responding to those various exploits. Zerg, being the reactive race, was going to strengthen as knowledge of defenses increased.
I don't know if pure MMM is completely viable anymore for late game play. Maybe Blizzard needs to shrink map size. Or maybe Terran players need to adjust to playing an immobile turtle deathball style.
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Guys international Terran balance doesn't really matter considering that there aren't really any good foreign terrans.
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the closest thing to a one-way balance-check for lower leagues would be to look at people who only play random, no? If random players keep winning way more with one race that tells something, even though its possible "random players" differ from us who stick to won race in some significant fashion. IE if the population of random players does not match the population of players as a whole in some important aspect (apart from them playing random of course).
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Seems that the koreans figured out how to kill zerg.
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On August 09 2012 04:49 Shiori wrote:
I have no idea what race is imbalanced. I think that the strategic depth of Zerg strategies is lacking in the non-mirror, just because there are a couple of do-all builds that require little more than rote memorization of reactions. Of course, it's not so much a balance thing so much as it is boring and simplistic, which I think stunts innovation and makes the metagame extremely dry.
Bingo.
And this is a result of Infestors being such a do all-unit (good anti-air, as harassment, and powerful in large battles), and the reactionary aspect of Zerg. The longer since the game is was released, the more Zerg's have realized through playing where they can cut corners and where they can't and thus it does become a "couple of do-all builds that require little more than rote memorization of reactions" simply because they react to what they see and that almost always means getting Infestors, since they are just better than Hydras in almost any situation, and have proven themselves to be superior to be Mutalisks too, as Terrans first, then Protoss have discovered how to deal with Mutalisks.
Sadly, I think this is a problem with PvP too, because the Colossus is so powerful it is almost impossible to avoid massing them late game. And the Protoss in PvZ have a pretty stale metagame too.
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On August 09 2012 05:05 jdsowa wrote:
Nerfs and buffs aside--
The way that Terran was designed--that is, to take advantage of timings, exploit terrain, etc--is an advantage that was going to have diminishing returns as players developed a familiarity with responding to those various exploits. Zerg, being the reactive race, was going to strengthen as knowledge of defenses increased.
I don't know if pure MMM is completely viable anymore for late game play. Maybe Blizzard needs to shrink map size. Or maybe Terran players need to adjust to playing an immobile turtle deathball style.
This is what various Terran players told Z and P players but they refused to listen and just cried for buffs the entire length of the game, while also calling for incredibly large maps that are by far much larger than the vast majority of BW maps now adays.
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Well, Zerg is getting nerfed and Terran buffed.
The changes seems to be minor and reasonable. I think creep tumor change is alot more important in late game TvZ. I'm not sure how much Raven speed buff does, as I think a buff seeker missile rather than raven itself is more needed.
We will see how it turns out.
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On August 09 2012 05:21 ragz_gt wrote:
Well, Zerg is getting nerfed and Terran buffed.
The changes seems to be minor and reasonable. I think creep tumor change is alot more important in late game TvZ. I'm not sure how much Raven speed buff does, as I think a buff seeker missile rather than raven itself is more needed.
We will see how it turns out.
Did I miss some patch or something or where are you getting this?
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On August 09 2012 05:21 ragz_gt wrote:
Well, Zerg is getting nerfed and Terran buffed.
The changes seems to be minor and reasonable. I think creep tumor change is alot more important in late game TvZ. I'm not sure how much Raven speed buff does, as I think a buff seeker missile rather than raven itself is more needed.
We will see how it turns out.
At least they noticed something is wrong instead of saying things like "we are happy with tournament results".
I like the idea of buffing ravens both in terms of speed but also acceleration. It was too easy to lose them to
a fungal.
Hope they really implement the changes.
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EPT
