the problem with this so called balance is that the player that makes more mistakes should be the one that loses the game.
But with terran there's a greater chance that you make a mistake that causes you to lose the game because the race is harder to play. A simple example of this would be the micro required in a typical fight. Look at what the terran has to do compared to what a zerg or toss has to do. Terrans have to do more during the fight, and only the koreans are capable of doing that plus macroing.
The balance I want to see is something that forces zergs or tosses to do more during the game. An example of this would be replacing the colossus with reaver, meaning instead of a-moving colossi, they would be dropping reavers from warp prisms. Obviously the metagame would change since colossi is such a huge part of the toss army, but that's beside the point. Such a change would require tosses to micro more during the fight.
On August 09 2012 07:51 derpinator wrote: 55.7% international winrate for zerg in TVZ is not close to 50.
The funny thing is that it includes the 50% TvZ winrate from korea. Poor foreign terrans .
Yep, lest us not forget that it even includes the Koreans
Yes, Korean zergs as well as terrans. Point?
You seem a bit on the slower side, so I'll explain.
International TvZ has korean TvZ stats into it, yet it's still at 45/55.
Korean TvZ is boosting international TvZ to the 45/55 that we see. If korean stats weren't there to boost the matchup percentages in favor of terran, the difference would be even larger by several percentage units.
Thus, terran is even weaker internationally/terran players are even worse internationally than the stats show (and korean terrans are even more amazing than we previously thought.)
You seem a bit on the slow side, so I'll explain: That doesnt fucking matter. International stats are literally irrelevant, they take in low masters all the way up to top korean players and all the lopsided results inbetween. We cant assume that kor tvz=50:50, that when brought into the equation they go 50:50 and thus increase or decrease the total result. Koreans play in both major and minor tournaments against good and bad players, some being knocked out early by protoss and others playing a series of mirrors; their results in any given month will be heavily dependent on who they reach within the bracket.
So the stats as a whole are not reliable, nor are the korean influence on them predictable. This is self evident.
Dont realyy know what are you trying to sayt but few facts: Korean TvZ is 50% International TvZ is 44,7% and this includes results from Korea
Excluding Korean data from International graph we have 40,7% TvZ - Its Terran winratio in tournament TvZ played outside of Korea in July 2012(includes Koreans playing in foreign tournaments).
On August 10 2012 04:03 IMPrime wrote: the problem with this so called balance is that the player that makes more mistakes should be the one that loses the game.
But with terran there's a greater chance that you make a mistake that causes you to lose the game because the race is harder to play. A simple example of this would be the micro required in a typical fight. Look at what the terran has to do compared to what a zerg or toss has to do. Terrans have to do more during the fight, and only the koreans are capable of doing that plus macroing.
The balance I want to see is something that forces zergs or tosses to do more during the game. An example of this would be replacing the colossus with reaver, meaning instead of a-moving colossi, they would be dropping reavers from warp prisms. Obviously the metagame would change since colossi is such a huge part of the toss army, but that's beside the point. Such a change would require tosses to micro more during the fight.
You do realize that protoss has to move the screen to a pylon and place EVERY SINGLE warp gate unit all game, while zerg and terran can do their production only using hotkeys. Also using apm to place EVERY crono on specific buildings all game. There is no trick like with injects to do these automatically using just hotkeys. What does Terran have that's equivalent to this? "E clicking" on minerals to drop mules is easier to do compared to crono or warp ins.
Protoss has to use FF's all game or zerg/ terran will roll them with an a move, if protoss gets caught with there screen in the wrong place to do warp ins and terran runs in close to the protoss army with stim, it's GG. Same thing happens if you let roach ling get on top of your army. Also, many top protoss are using prisms to pick up and drop wounded immortals vs zerg. Because when protoss does a 2 base immortal timing, zerg is hitting their 3 base timing. Even with some amazing FF's and keeping immortals alive using prisms, it barely succeeds.
I'm fine with the way things are, my point is that you need to look at the broader picture when it comes to "how hard a race is to play". Protoss's macro is very apm and multitask intensive. Protoss's army is extremely weak without good positioning and FF's.
The problem with terran is that their late game is so shitty that they HAVE to do some econ damage or tech sniping in the mid/early game, otherwise they get rolled in the late game because they are still relying on tier 1 units as the backbone of their army. Toss and Zerg have gotten very good at pre positioning units and getting map vision to deny terran harass.
Terran just doesn't have good options for mid/late game units that can be massed, and not easily hard countered. Another thing that makes terrans late game so weak is that the same units that are good vs MMM are good vs mech units, such as chargelots, immortals, templar, colossus. For zerg muta ling can work vs bio or mech, and late game BL Infestor will smash mech or bio.
This is what needs to change, terran needs better tier 2 and 3, massable units that can't be hard countered with the same units that you want to beat terran bio with. But the way terran was designed with the add on swapping, terrans can rush to any unit in their arsenal. So over the course of Sc2's life we've seen the repeated nerfing of their tech because terrans tier 2 or 3 units are so hard to handle if they are rushed out.
I agree there are some issues with terran's gameplay, I just disagree with where the problem lies.
I think there are serious game play issues with PvZ right now too. If you look at what protoss players have to do to beat the stephano build, they have to out play the zerg SOOOO hard and still barely comes out on top. This is versus zergs who literally make 3 bases and nothing but drones in the early game, then just spam out roach ling in mid game while teching to GGlords/infestor. The protoss knows how zerg is going open and proceed before the game even starts and any option protoss uses, to try and kill zerg before the BL's come out, is a coin flip.
If you watch any top protoss player right now, they are literally winning by crossing their fingers and cutting corners. Zerg players just really not abusing the game play issues in pvz to the fullest. The way most protoss players are forge expanding is not safe at all, if zergs make a few early lings and position overlords better, they can easily deny the protoss any scouting. Many of the best protoss players would die to a zerg that cuts drones soon after the 3rd is down and masses roaches. Because at that point in time warp isn't close to being done, there is probably 1 (maybe 2) sentries out and a single cannon. Roaches can break this if they just back up every time good FF's are placed and run protoss out of FF's. Also, the way protoss are walling with the forge expand (on some maps) there is literally no way for them to place pylons around their main to get full vision. Which means a fast speedling nydus into the main would kill the main almost every time.
The fact is that in PvZ protoss are only doing as good as they are because zergs are not abusing the meta game, so protoss players are able to cut corners every game. If zergs were using the strategies I'm suggesting more, protoss players would have to spend more money to get vision of their entire main in order to be safe from fast ling nydus, have to make more cannons to be safe from early roach busts. Also, realize that if a protoss spreads his pylons out in the main Muta harass become much harder to deal with, because there are so many pylons to snipe. Basically, if protoss players were being punished more for cutting so many corners before warp gate finishes, they would not be able to hit the 2 base timings they are currently using to stay alive in the matchup. This alone would make the Stephano build MUCH stronger. Most protoss are even going Nexus first, you realize if the zerg makes a bunch of lings they can just do a run by and win right there?
I may be biased in my opinion as a toss player, but I think PvZ is actually in a much worse state than results are reflecting. Mostly because zergs don't understand the protoss side of the matchup, and they don't realize how greatly protoss's are cutting corners in the early game.
All this graph tells me is that the best of the best Terran players in Korea are able to scrape by with a 50% TvZ against mediocre zergs while the rest of the Terrans around the globe struggle to win games.
Now, does this mean the game is balanced at the highest level or does it mean the very best korean terrans in the world are able to overcome the disadvantages of TvZ(while only managing 50% win rate) that their foreign counterpart are not able to????? You tell me.
Omg both posters above me Jesus do both of you have no idea what you are talking about. Especially reborn. I think it's funny how pointless posting these stats are now because every time it's same hint x race qqs bout balance and other race tells them they don't know how to play right lol.
On August 10 2012 05:40 blamekilly wrote: All this graph tells me is that the best of the best Terran players in Korea are able to scrape by with a 50% TvZ against mediocre zergs while the rest of the Terrans around the globe struggle to win games.
Now, does this mean the game is balanced at the highest level or does it mean the very best korean terrans in the world are able to overcome the disadvantages of TvZ(while only managing 50% win rate) that their foreign counterpart are not able to????? You tell me.
At what winrate between zergs and terrans in Korea would you say we have a balanced game? 55-45 for terran? 60-40 perhaps?
Take a step back and look at what you're writing. Why exactly are the Korean matches played between 'very best korean terrans' and 'mediocre zergs'. Aren't they just matches between Korean terrans and Korean zergs?
On August 10 2012 05:40 blamekilly wrote: All this graph tells me is that the best of the best Terran players in Korea are able to scrape by with a 50% TvZ against mediocre zergs while the rest of the Terrans around the globe struggle to win games.
Now, does this mean the game is balanced at the highest level or does it mean the very best korean terrans in the world are able to overcome the disadvantages of TvZ(while only managing 50% win rate) that their foreign counterpart are not able to????? You tell me.
lol - the bias is strong in this one
Basically all the top zergs are medicore? :p
Stop complaining. The game is ridiculously well balanced compare to anything else out there.
On August 10 2012 05:40 blamekilly wrote: All this graph tells me is that the best of the best Terran players in Korea are able to scrape by with a 50% TvZ against mediocre zergs while the rest of the Terrans around the globe struggle to win games.
Now, does this mean the game is balanced at the highest level or does it mean the very best korean terrans in the world are able to overcome the disadvantages of TvZ(while only managing 50% win rate) that their foreign counterpart are not able to????? You tell me.
All your post tells me is that you can't read a graph.
On August 10 2012 05:40 blamekilly wrote: All this graph tells me is that the best of the best Terran players in Korea are able to scrape by with a 50% TvZ against mediocre zergs while the rest of the Terrans around the globe struggle to win games.
Now, does this mean the game is balanced at the highest level or does it mean the very best korean terrans in the world are able to overcome the disadvantages of TvZ(while only managing 50% win rate) that their foreign counterpart are not able to????? You tell me.
lol - the bias is strong in this one
Basically all the top zergs are medicore? :p
Stop complaining. The game is ridiculously well balanced compare to anything else out there.
On August 10 2012 05:40 blamekilly wrote: All this graph tells me is that the best of the best Terran players in Korea are able to scrape by with a 50% TvZ against mediocre zergs while the rest of the Terrans around the globe struggle to win games.
Now, does this mean the game is balanced at the highest level or does it mean the very best korean terrans in the world are able to overcome the disadvantages of TvZ(while only managing 50% win rate) that their foreign counterpart are not able to????? You tell me.
At what winrate between zergs and terrans in Korea would you say we have a balanced game? 55-45 for terran? 60-40 perhaps?
Take a step back and look at what you're writing. Why exactly are the Korean matches played between 'very best korean terrans' and 'mediocre zergs'. Aren't they just matches between Korean terrans and Korean zergs?
This is the best. Korean terrans are really should be losing, but terrible the zergs were terrible this month. Or they were always terrible and were just extra terrible this month for no reason.
I wonder how many months in a row we are going to have to do this. How long do you thing people will continue to blame the game and claim that they need 20000 apm just to stand a chance against the opponent of another race? Do you think after 9 months of nearly 50/50 win rates that people take responsibility for their losses? A year? Ever?
Good players find ways to win even when their race has been turned into a flaming pile of poo. Regardless of whether you think the game is fair you can keep finding ways to win. Just to take a quick jab at the Blizz balance team real quick though.\, If you play terran and you DO find some nice new tricks you best use them quickly because we all know it won't last long before they nerf it.
Korean Terrans will win no matter what given enough time because Terran was the most intricately designed in Wings of Liberty. As for the rest of us foreigner Terrans, there isn't much hope. The game will always be balanced on the MVPs, the Taejas, the MKP's, etc who will win regardless of balance because their skill and the wider array of options available compared to Zerg or Protoss. The best we can do is ride along and hope a huge influx of amazingly talented Protoss and Zerg users dominate in HOTS and LOTV so that they too can feel the weight of having the best players penalize everyone else.
On August 09 2012 07:51 derpinator wrote: 55.7% international winrate for zerg in TVZ is not close to 50.
The funny thing is that it includes the 50% TvZ winrate from korea. Poor foreign terrans .
Yea this game favors zerg in ZVT slightly only if the terran practice his game 12 hours a day. All the other terrans have to listen to zerg players say l2p and calling them noobs while they get annihilated in lategame because they dont have 300+ APM. Just think how succesfull the top terrans would be if they switched race.
Well, terrans are the best players in the world, after all. They are drawn to the race with the highest potential and difficulty. It a huge problem for balancing the game, since the terran win rates have always been inflated by these juggernauts of talent. It is only natural that the race has now been over nerfed because Blizzard has mistaken this raw skill for an imbalance in the game. Hopefully they will figure it out soon and revert some of the most recent nerfs.
This is what I have always thought about the way Blizzard is balancing the game. And this is why I still haven't switched from playing random to Terran. I think it's the funniest way to play Starcraft but it's just sooo much harder to succeed than with Zerg or Protoss. When I finally get the cool Banshee picture reward I will probably stick with Protoss, hahah.
On August 09 2012 07:51 derpinator wrote: 55.7% international winrate for zerg in TVZ is not close to 50.
The funny thing is that it includes the 50% TvZ winrate from korea. Poor foreign terrans .
Yea this game favors zerg in ZVT slightly only if the terran practice his game 12 hours a day. All the other terrans have to listen to zerg players say l2p and calling them noobs while they get annihilated in lategame because they dont have 300+ APM. Just think how succesfull the top terrans would be if they switched race.
Well, terrans are the best players in the world, after all. They are drawn to the race with the highest potential and difficulty. It a huge problem for balancing the game, since the terran win rates have always been inflated by these juggernauts of talent. It is only natural that the race has now been over nerfed because Blizzard has mistaken this raw skill for an imbalance in the game. Hopefully they will figure it out soon and revert some of the most recent nerfs.
This is what I have always thought about the way Blizzard is balancing the game. And this is why I still haven't switched from playing random to Terran. I think it's the funniest way to play Starcraft but it's just sooo much harder to succeed than with Zerg or Protoss. When I finally get the cool Banshee picture reward I will probably stick with Protoss, hahah.
You gotta press on till 1000 man. That panda icon is B0$$ ^^
These are definitely some interesting stats. Nice to see that all of the matchups are pretty much where they should be. It is going to be interesting to see what happens when Blizz implements the new balance changes to Zerg and Terran. I don't think it will be too effective, however we will see.
On August 09 2012 07:51 derpinator wrote: 55.7% international winrate for zerg in TVZ is not close to 50.
The funny thing is that it includes the 50% TvZ winrate from korea. Poor foreign terrans .
Yea this game favors zerg in ZVT slightly only if the terran practice his game 12 hours a day. All the other terrans have to listen to zerg players say l2p and calling them noobs while they get annihilated in lategame because they dont have 300+ APM. Just think how succesfull the top terrans would be if they switched race.
Well, terrans are the best players in the world, after all. They are drawn to the race with the highest potential and difficulty. It a huge problem for balancing the game, since the terran win rates have always been inflated by these juggernauts of talent. It is only natural that the race has now been over nerfed because Blizzard has mistaken this raw skill for an imbalance in the game. Hopefully they will figure it out soon and revert some of the most recent nerfs.
This is what I have always thought about the way Blizzard is balancing the game. And this is why I still haven't switched from playing random to Terran. I think it's the funniest way to play Starcraft but it's just sooo much harder to succeed than with Zerg or Protoss. When I finally get the cool Banshee picture reward I will probably stick with Protoss, hahah.
You gotta press on till 1000 man. That panda icon is B0$$ ^^
Maybe I'll do that, but it would mean to still choose no race, and I'm playing SC2 since early 2011 now. And I want to get into the Master league once, but I won't achieve that by playing random race. Just now it feels I'm close to getting demoted into platinum league again xD
On August 10 2012 06:56 R3DT1D3 wrote: Korean Terrans will win no matter what given enough time because Terran was the most intricately designed in Wings of Liberty. As for the rest of us foreigner Terrans, there isn't much hope. The game will always be balanced on the MVPs, the Taejas, the MKP's, etc who will win regardless of balance because their skill and the wider array of options available compared to Zerg or Protoss. The best we can do is ride along and hope a huge influx of amazingly talented Protoss and Zerg users dominate in HOTS and LOTV so that they too can feel the weight of having the best players penalize everyone else.
If by that argument you are not saying that terran players are necessarily better, but just have more options due to design i completly agree on this. Terran, though being a very hard race to play, has a great design which allows the players to win if playing at the highest level, even in case of an imbalance.
On August 10 2012 06:56 R3DT1D3 wrote: Korean Terrans will win no matter what given enough time because Terran was the most intricately designed in Wings of Liberty. As for the rest of us foreigner Terrans, there isn't much hope. The game will always be balanced on the MVPs, the Taejas, the MKP's, etc who will win regardless of balance because their skill and the wider array of options available compared to Zerg or Protoss. The best we can do is ride along and hope a huge influx of amazingly talented Protoss and Zerg users dominate in HOTS and LOTV so that they too can feel the weight of having the best players penalize everyone else.
If by that argument you are not saying that terran players are necessarily better, but just have more options due to design i completly agree on this. Terran, though being a very hard race to play, has a great design which allows the players to win if playing at the highest level, even in case of an imbalance.
It's just micro. The terran players that are still winning in korea are just waaaaaaaaaay out microing their opponents. Everyone acts as if terran is the only "flexible" race, that's just not true. In any case it's not really flexible anymore, now it's just boring.
EPT
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