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On August 10 2012 keglu wrote:
Dont realyy know what are you trying to sayt but few facts:
Korean TvZ is 50%
International TvZ is 44,7% and this includes results from Korea
Excluding Korean data from International graph we have 40,7% TvZ - Its Terran winratio in tournament TvZ played outside of Korea in July 2012(includes Koreans playing in foreign tournaments).
This.
On August 10 2012 Cereb wrote:
Stop complaining. The game is ridiculously well balanced compare to anything else out there.
:Facepalm:
User was warned for this post
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Win rates in small single elimination tournaments don't show too much. If you start with 8 T in a 32 person tourney, 6 get knocked out in the first round, 2 win, 2 make it to the semis and 1 wins the tourney, you get 7 T losses and 8 T wins, TERRAN IMBA.
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Seeing how most of the Terran players have switched to another race lately (pretty obvious just by playing some ladder games) I'm not sure it matters how Terran fits into the balance picture.
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impressive good results for terran still, expected worse. Love the fun fact. Still getting a TvT on Ladder feels like you found an epic.
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On August 09 2012 00:05 Rannasha wrote:
I feel that looking at the Korean numbers as an indication of the state of balance in the game is a bad idea. The sample size is simply too small. In addition, it would only make sense if the Korean top-talents happen to be equally distributed between T, P and Z. Right now the skill-difference between the absolute top players that are in shape and the weaker Code S and Code A players is quite big. And this has a big effect on the overall winrate for the race.
Right now Taeja is beasting it up, pushing up Terran winrates. Does that say anything about the Terran race as a whole? Nope. Just that Taeja is stupidly good at the moment. A while back DRG had a similar period, where he won almost everything and really pushed Zerg winrates. That too, didn't say anything about game balance and Zergs, just that DRG was playing very well.
If the aim is to balance for the best of the best, then winrate statistics are useless. The more you restrict your data-set to top players (e.g. restricting the overall international data to Korea only), the more the influence of dominant players will become noticeable in the winrates.
Note that Blizzards aim is not just to balance for Ro8 GSL calibre players. They want to keep the foreigner scene alive as well and keep B.net filled with lower league players. It's a difficult challenge.
Just how much sample size is enough? As far as I can see it, it's plenty enough with the number they got now.
And you also want to balance, not from the top ? That's a bad idea. You always want to balance game changes from the very top. And the very top is Korean scene right now.
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On August 10 2012 05:51 Cereb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 05:40 blamekilly wrote:
All this graph tells me is that the best of the best Terran players in Korea are able to scrape by with a 50% TvZ against mediocre zergs while the rest of the Terrans around the globe struggle to win games.
Now, does this mean the game is balanced at the highest level or does it mean the very best korean terrans in the world are able to overcome the disadvantages of TvZ(while only managing 50% win rate) that their foreign counterpart are not able to????? You tell me. lol - the bias is strong in this one  Basically all the top zergs are medicore? :p Stop complaining. The game is ridiculously well balanced compare to anything else out there.
Isn't it ironic that his name starts with the word 'blame'
lol. Biased poster +1
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On August 10 2012 08:37 PauseBreak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 Cereb wrote:
Stop complaining. The game is ridiculously well balanced compare to anything else out there. :Facepalm:
hey great rebuttal man
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On August 10 2012 09:36 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:05 Rannasha wrote:
I feel that looking at the Korean numbers as an indication of the state of balance in the game is a bad idea. The sample size is simply too small. In addition, it would only make sense if the Korean top-talents happen to be equally distributed between T, P and Z. Right now the skill-difference between the absolute top players that are in shape and the weaker Code S and Code A players is quite big. And this has a big effect on the overall winrate for the race.
Right now Taeja is beasting it up, pushing up Terran winrates. Does that say anything about the Terran race as a whole? Nope. Just that Taeja is stupidly good at the moment. A while back DRG had a similar period, where he won almost everything and really pushed Zerg winrates. That too, didn't say anything about game balance and Zergs, just that DRG was playing very well.
If the aim is to balance for the best of the best, then winrate statistics are useless. The more you restrict your data-set to top players (e.g. restricting the overall international data to Korea only), the more the influence of dominant players will become noticeable in the winrates.
Note that Blizzards aim is not just to balance for Ro8 GSL calibre players. They want to keep the foreigner scene alive as well and keep B.net filled with lower league players. It's a difficult challenge. Just how much sample size is enough? As far as I can see it, it's plenty enough with the number they got now. And you also want to balance, not from the top ? That's a bad idea. You always want to balance game changes from the very top. And the very top is Korean scene right now.
Yeah, because the Queen buff was obviously aimed at high level players, and totally wasn't considered by DRG as rewarding lazy play, or anything.
Right? And Fruitdealer won GSL way back after release, so clearly Zerg wasn't underpowered back then. Right?
Right?
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These win rates are just numbers right now. They don't offer any insight as to whether or not if these games are balanced. You need to at least compare them with the length of the game, a type of build being used, or the skill level of the players in their respective leagues.
Preferably, all 3. Not saying that it would be easy, but this data is just going to cause and endless debate on balance.
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On August 09 2012 15:51 Kapouais wrote:
Some comments here are incredible ... :D
When people say that top Terran are much better players than Zerg/Protoss overall but barely win because the game is imbalance, everyone is like "Oh stop with that, this argument is stupid !". Then, two posts later you read stuff like "If international Terran have a 45% winrate, it's because they suck" ...
Or few people saying that the TvZ matchup is Terran FAVORED in Korea because the ratio is 50.2/49.8, but when it was 47/53, it was perfectly fine and balanced !
Because T is the least played.
http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all
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On August 08 2012 23:40 CaptainCrush wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 23:36 sAsImre wrote:On August 08 2012 23:35 CaptainCrush wrote:On August 08 2012 23:27 iiGreetings wrote:
Whoa pretty danm balanced... because i heard that terran was struggling, but it turns out its dead even with zerg basically. Thanks for this grapefruit!
EDIT:i speak of the korean ladder, as they are ahead of the meta game on average. Unfortunately their metagame is to cheese or 1-base all in most of the time. The international terran win rate shows you what happens if you go beyond the early game :/ don't spread bullshit. The meta is to get a fast 3rd into a 2-2 timing before hive tech. That's only for MKP, what are you so mad about?
No people just want to do the same old Terran builds and expect to win hence why Terran hasn't been winning. MKP is doing something outside the same old an is doing well with it but people just don't do it cause they want to win with the same old shit. So no it's not just MKP it's just that he found a way to win while no one else wants to change cause they're ignorant thinking they can actually break through with old out of date strategies.
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On August 10 2012 14:19 Catatonic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 23:40 CaptainCrush wrote:On August 08 2012 23:36 sAsImre wrote:On August 08 2012 23:35 CaptainCrush wrote:On August 08 2012 23:27 iiGreetings wrote:
Whoa pretty danm balanced... because i heard that terran was struggling, but it turns out its dead even with zerg basically. Thanks for this grapefruit!
EDIT:i speak of the korean ladder, as they are ahead of the meta game on average. Unfortunately their metagame is to cheese or 1-base all in most of the time. The international terran win rate shows you what happens if you go beyond the early game :/ don't spread bullshit. The meta is to get a fast 3rd into a 2-2 timing before hive tech. That's only for MKP, what are you so mad about? No people just want to do the same old Terran builds and expect to win hence why Terran hasn't been winning. MKP is doing something outside the same old an is doing well with it but people just don't do it cause they want to win with the same old shit. So no it's not just MKP it's just that he found a way to win while no one else wants to change cause they're ignorant thinking they can actually break through with old out of date strategies.
Actually it's because every time a new build gets figured out it gets nerfed.
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Terran doesn't look that bad, although it feels like it when I'm laddering :O
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On August 10 2012 09:57 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 09:36 GhostOwl wrote:On August 09 2012 00:05 Rannasha wrote:
I feel that looking at the Korean numbers as an indication of the state of balance in the game is a bad idea. The sample size is simply too small. In addition, it would only make sense if the Korean top-talents happen to be equally distributed between T, P and Z. Right now the skill-difference between the absolute top players that are in shape and the weaker Code S and Code A players is quite big. And this has a big effect on the overall winrate for the race.
Right now Taeja is beasting it up, pushing up Terran winrates. Does that say anything about the Terran race as a whole? Nope. Just that Taeja is stupidly good at the moment. A while back DRG had a similar period, where he won almost everything and really pushed Zerg winrates. That too, didn't say anything about game balance and Zergs, just that DRG was playing very well.
If the aim is to balance for the best of the best, then winrate statistics are useless. The more you restrict your data-set to top players (e.g. restricting the overall international data to Korea only), the more the influence of dominant players will become noticeable in the winrates.
Note that Blizzards aim is not just to balance for Ro8 GSL calibre players. They want to keep the foreigner scene alive as well and keep B.net filled with lower league players. It's a difficult challenge. Just how much sample size is enough? As far as I can see it, it's plenty enough with the number they got now. And you also want to balance, not from the top ? That's a bad idea. You always want to balance game changes from the very top. And the very top is Korean scene right now. Yeah, because the Queen buff was obviously aimed at high level players, and totally wasn't considered by DRG as rewarding lazy play, or anything. Right? And Fruitdealer won GSL way back after release, so clearly Zerg wasn't underpowered back then. Right? Right?
Did you see the Ro16? Two zergs. Next round, just FD. But that IS the reason why his story in the first GSL was so great. He won in the dark age of zerg.
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Fun fact: If you take out TaeJa and Gumiho from the KR statistics the TvZ win-rate drops to 47,1%.
Let's take out two of the best ZvT ers from the stats! OMG ZERGS WINRATE GOES DOWN TO LIKE 30% HOLY SHIT WTF WHAT
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On August 10 2012 15:21 .Sic. wrote:Show nested quote +Fun fact: If you take out TaeJa and Gumiho from the KR statistics the TvZ win-rate drops to 47,1%. Let's take out two of the best ZvT ers from the stats! OMG ZERGS WINRATE GOES DOWN TO LIKE 30% HOLY SHIT WTF WHAT
Fruitdealer and Nestea won the first two GSLs OMG ZERGS WERE BALANCED ALL ALONG AND EVERY ZERG EVER WHO DIDN'T WIN EVER WAS BAD!
Keyword: Outlier.
Also, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that having two guys with 90% win rates carrying the entire race to 50% win rate isn't a good sign of balance in any way.
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On August 10 2012 15:21 .Sic. wrote:Show nested quote +Fun fact: If you take out TaeJa and Gumiho from the KR statistics the TvZ win-rate drops to 47,1%. Let's take out two of the best ZvT ers from the stats! OMG ZERGS WINRATE GOES DOWN TO LIKE 30% HOLY SHIT WTF WHAT
the point he is making is that mediocre zergs are putting up better results than mediocre terrans when you remove the anomalies. i found it interesting thanks for sharing sic.
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Again terran whine? Cmon, the game is getting pretty balanced right now so stop qqing for your ladder losses. The game is not broken, you are.
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On August 08 2012 23:35 GwSC wrote:Only took two months for TvZ to go back in favor of T in Korea
2 rax pretty good yo?
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I really wish the term 'sample size' would just be off limits for these threads. The misuse of that term has gotten so bad that it's pointless to bring it up. I'm not saying these stats are or aren't valid. Just that people tend to use that term in a weird way, usually to support their pet balance issues.
That said, I love that these come out. I always enjoy seeing these data.
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EPT
