EPTJuly TLPD Win Rates - Page 20
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On August 10 2012 23:17 Chaggi wrote: Before entering this thread, people need to freaking take a Stats class rather than just accuse people of skewing stats towards personal goals. Outliers happen and they need to be taken out The problem is it is skewed because of the method used to identify and remove outliers. Firstly, he used a qualitative approach, which is already a bit unsettling in itself (though it can be used). More importantly, however, he did not remove outliers in the other direction. He did not take out anyone that was particularly bad at TvZ. That is where the issue lies. | ||
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Charon1979
Austria317 Posts
On August 10 2012 23:12 Sated wrote: The problem with this logic is that you're assuming macro games show that you have more skill. The reason P and T don't want to go into the late-game vs. Z isn't because they don't have the ability to do so, the reason they don't want to go into the late-game vs. Z is because Z has Infestor/Broodlord and they don't currently have anything that can consistently deal with that composition when the Z doesn't screw up. You have to severely outplay the Z player in order to beat them in the late-game (as in be a hell of a lot better than them), which discourages macro games... ... so if you can't do anything but go into a macro game because Z can deny any attempt at 2 Base pressure, you're going to be pretty frustrated about playing vs. Z players. I have never written somewhere "a macro game takes more skill", have I? But you cant say Toss and Terra tried hard to macro, or? You cant even say "P/T didnt want to go lategame because they had no chance against infestor/BL" when lategame wasnt even explored, infestors where hardly used and games tended to end midgame. So please... tell me what hindered toss/terran to try to macro/explore the lategame when Infestor/Broodlord wasnt even a theoretical concept? It was not because they where afraid of the mighty zerg lategame 1,5 years ago, they just had to possibility to win comfortably at the 12 minute mark and they used/abused it. | ||
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SoulReaver306
Australia210 Posts
On August 10 2012 23:22 Charon1979 wrote: I have never written somewhere "a macro game takes more skill", have I? But you cant say Toss and Terra tried hard to macro, or? You cant even say "P/T didnt want to go lategame because they had no chance against infestor/BL" when lategame wasnt even explored, infestors where hardly used and games tended to end midgame. So please... tell me what hindered toss/terran to try to macro/explore the lategame when Infestor/Broodlord wasnt even a theoretical concept? It was not because they where afraid of the mighty zerg lategame 1,5 years ago, they just had to possibility to win comfortably at the 12 minute mark and they used/abused it. You don't say that macro takes more skill, but by saying that they should have tried harder to macro implies that it is the right way to play, which is not necessarily true. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
Now that I'm microing my ravens better like Browder said, I'm winning more TvZs! | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote: no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry. Never read something more wrong then this. Do you really think all terrans play like that? Players like kas and thorzain do macrobuilds whole the time, just like gumiho and taeja. I (1500 master) do macro builds whole the time. You ever macroed against zerg? You ever had to play against broodlord + infestor? | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
On August 10 2012 23:42 Snowbear wrote: Never read something more wrong then this. Do you really think all terrans play like that? Players like kas and thorzain do macrobuilds whole the time, just like gumiho and taeja. I (1500 master) do macro builds whole the time. You ever macroed against zerg? You ever had to play against broodlord + infestor? micro your ravens better!!!! | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
Oh thanks for this tip! I think me and all other terrans should start to micro our ravens better! I mean, splitting all our rines is no problem, but the raven micro man, so hard!!!! Thanks terran brother! | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
On August 10 2012 23:45 Snowbear wrote: Oh thanks for this tip! I think me and all other terrans should start to micro our ravens better! I mean, splitting all our rines is no problem, but the raven micro man, so hard!!!! sorry im just quoting Dustin Browder on that! xD he actually said that! its hard to do sarcasm on forums  P | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
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Charon1979
Austria317 Posts
You don't say that macro takes more skill, but by saying that they should have tried harder to macro implies that it is the right way to play, which is not necessarily true. I didnt even say they should have tried harder to macro. You cant just quote a text and then make up something that wasnt even written there. No mention about skill, not even in the slightest. | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
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RandomAccount#106470
Lithuania1506 Posts
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convention
United States622 Posts
On August 10 2012 23:56 Charon1979 wrote: I didnt even say they should have tried harder to macro. You cant just quote a text and then make up something that wasnt even written there. No mention about skill, not even in the slightest. Your comment did have a tone that T/P are just not good at macro games against zerg, based on you agreeing with the guy who said: "OH MY GOSH IM TERRAN / PROTOSS I HAVE TO GO INTO MACRO GAME ? OHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGOD" Both you and the all-caps guy really should queue up a game as terran or protoss, and let zerg drone up to 90 by the time you are at 65 scvs/probes, and let them get up that infestor/BL army because you went for a straight up macro game. Then when you get destroyed by the most powerful composition currently in the game, made by the race that has the economy lead, maybe then you will understand why there are so many two base timings. | ||
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Tom Cruise
Denmark482 Posts
On August 11 2012 00:34 convention wrote: Your comment did have a tone that T/P are just not good at macro games against zerg, based on you agreeing with the guy who said: "OH MY GOSH IM TERRAN / PROTOSS I HAVE TO GO INTO MACRO GAME ? OHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGOD" Both you and the all-caps guy really should queue up a game as terran or protoss, and let zerg drone up to 90 by the time you are at 65 scvs/probes, and let them get up that infestor/BL army because you went for a straight up macro game. Then when you get destroyed by the most powerful composition currently in the game, made by the race that has the economy lead, maybe then you will understand why there are so many two base timings. the game isn't as straight forward as you want to think. | ||
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Charon1979
Austria317 Posts
Both you and the all-caps guy really should queue up a game as terran or protoss, and let zerg drone up to 90 by the time you are at 65 scvs/probes, and let them get up that infestor/BL army because you went for a straight up macro game. Then when you get destroyed by the most powerful composition currently in the game, made by the race that has the economy lead, maybe then you will understand why there are so many two base timings. And I told you Toss/Terra didnt do anything else than 1 base or 2 base timings before infestor/Bl even came into existence. You really want to sell me that 1,5 years back the nostradamus terran and the mayan protoss have forseen that there will be an uber unit combo and startet to train their 1 and 2 base all-ins because they where afraid of the future apocalypse? | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On August 11 2012 00:52 Charon1979 wrote: And I told you Toss/Terra didnt do anything else than 1 base or 2 base timings before infestor/Bl even came into existence. You really want to sell me that 1,5 years back the nostradamus terran and the mayan protoss have forseen that there will be an uber unit combo and startet to train their 1 and 2 base all-ins because they where afraid of the future apocalypse? What the fuck is the point of this useless argument? Everyone at the top level is capable of macroing well, and microing well. The difference is that Zerg gets a lategame composition that requires minimal micro to use effectively, and which can be achieved with minimal micro for defence.That aside, Protoss and Terran players can't actually engage BL/Infestor without their opponent making a mistake. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On August 11 2012 00:52 Charon1979 wrote: And I told you Toss/Terra didnt do anything else than 1 base or 2 base timings before infestor/Bl even came into existence. You really want to sell me that 1,5 years back the nostradamus terran and the mayan protoss have forseen that there will be an uber unit combo and startet to train their 1 and 2 base all-ins because they where afraid of the future apocalypse? What are you on about? Have you just never actually watched or played SC2? That is the impression your post gives. | ||
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