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I would really like to see NA and EU separated, would be interested to see P/T v Z on EU... even international is higher than korea.
It fells like Korean zergs are really shit atm, MC gets crushed by half-time zerg in Europe yet does pretty well for himself vs korean zergs.
Would be really nice to see a race finally get "better" in Europe than Korea and i fell like zergs are really starting to look stronger in some aspects on the European side.
On August 10 2012 09:29 FeyFey wrote:
impressive good results for terran still, expected worse. Love the fun fact. Still getting a TvT on Ladder feels like you found an epic.
The comparison to finding an epic made me think tvt is the only thing you find on ladder...
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On August 10 2012 14:15 kckkryptonite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 15:51 Kapouais wrote:
Some comments here are incredible ... :D
When people say that top Terran are much better players than Zerg/Protoss overall but barely win because the game is imbalance, everyone is like "Oh stop with that, this argument is stupid !". Then, two posts later you read stuff like "If international Terran have a 45% winrate, it's because they suck" ...
Or few people saying that the TvZ matchup is Terran FAVORED in Korea because the ratio is 50.2/49.8, but when it was 47/53, it was perfectly fine and balanced !
Because T is the least played. http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all
and if i quickly added correctly there are roughly 190k terrans and 175k zergs, in any case it would be ridiculous to assume that talented players would pick zerg or protoss, but not terran initially for no reason.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
Fun fact: If you take out TaeJa and Gumiho from the KR statistics the TvZ win-rate drops to 47,1%.
Oh Taeja you absolute beast.
Maybe TvZ in korea is less balanced than was thought ? ^^
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Funnily enough, I still consider switching to terran right now... :D Silly me.
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On August 10 2012 18:45 RageCommodore wrote:
Funnily enough, I still consider switching to terran right now... :D Silly me.
I was training my Zerg in order to switch, but with the Raven buff... Mech looks much more viable in both TvZ and TvT. And I like mech  Now just find out something for TvP, some timing or other thing to get ahead early (because if you are even mid and late game with Protoss, you are, in fact, behind  )
On August 10 2012 18:28 Naphal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 14:15 kckkryptonite wrote:On August 09 2012 15:51 Kapouais wrote:
Some comments here are incredible ... :D
When people say that top Terran are much better players than Zerg/Protoss overall but barely win because the game is imbalance, everyone is like "Oh stop with that, this argument is stupid !". Then, two posts later you read stuff like "If international Terran have a 45% winrate, it's because they suck" ...
Or few people saying that the TvZ matchup is Terran FAVORED in Korea because the ratio is 50.2/49.8, but when it was 47/53, it was perfectly fine and balanced !
Because T is the least played. http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all and if i quickly added correctly there are roughly 190k terrans and 175k zergs, in any case it would be ridiculous to assume that talented players would pick zerg or protoss, but not terran initially for no reason.
That is because 57,7% of players are in Bronze or Silver league. Those are the players that propably just finished campaign and many of them choose Terran only because they already know the basics. The more skill needed, the less Terrans appears in sight just because Terran is way harder to play (but also more rewarding, which is why Terrans were dominating for a long time).
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i found that WCS korean preliminary is missed in TLPD...
while we have OSL pre in TLPD korea
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On August 08 2012 23:28 StarcraftNerd1547 wrote:
Hm international it's getting worse. Korea looks balanced though!
worse? it's balanced
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oh shit zerg so imba....
srsy stop whinging terrans...
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France12874 Posts
It's still beyond imagination why Blizzard decided to buff the queen. Pretty sure that it was balanced (with foreign terrans getting crushed but not that much), good koreans T (MMA MKP etc) were able to beat low/mid tier zergs easily, whereas against big zergs such as DRG it was more of a 50-50.
Seriously why nerf/buff when it was very close to balanced already :s.
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no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry. I actually started drone scouting again vs T because they do the most stupid stuff in months.
One can see in Korean winrates what happens if you actually try to figure out smth. new. Foreigner Terrans just are comfortable crying because they were used to deny everything with just 4 hellions ( which is pretty ridiculous ).
and lol @ cloud crying that 2 base "timings" aka. allins got slightly nerfed due to faster overlords.
OH MY GOSH IM TERRAN / PROTOSS I HAVE TO GO INTO MACRO GAME ?
OHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGOD
+ its ridiculous demanding harder zerg mechanics then there is a race called protoss in this game.
User was warned for this post
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On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote:
no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry. I actually started drone scouting again vs T because they do the most stupid stuff in months.
One can see in Korean winrates what happens if you actually try to figure out smth. new. Foreigner Terrans just are comfortable crying because they were used to deny everything with just 4 hellions ( which is pretty ridiculous ).
and lol @ cloud crying that 2 base "timings" aka. allins got slightly nerfed due to faster overlords.
OH MY GOSH IM TERRAN / PROTOSS I HAVE TO GO INTO MACRO GAME ?
OHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGOD
+ its ridiculous demanding harder zerg mechanics then there is a race called protoss in this game.
Everything wrong with the zerg mentality is summarized so well in this post that it's amazing.
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On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote:
no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry. I actually started drone scouting again vs T because they do the most stupid stuff in months.
One can see in Korean winrates what happens if you actually try to figure out smth. new. Foreigner Terrans just are comfortable crying because they were used to deny everything with just 4 hellions ( which is pretty ridiculous ).
and lol @ cloud crying that 2 base "timings" aka. allins got slightly nerfed due to faster overlords.
OH MY GOSH IM TERRAN / PROTOSS I HAVE TO GO INTO MACRO GAME ?
OHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGOD
+ its ridiculous demanding harder zerg mechanics then there is a race called protoss in this game.
Delay, not deny. The only thing single-Reactor Hellions denied is fast three base without a care. They just forced Zerg to play fair, little else. Being set back from broken to playing fair is not being behind, it is playing fair. Both players did their due diligence and they were about even. (And let me go on record that I love that possibility of brokenness being there, but the current situation where it is both standard and very safe is absurd)
You could argue that distinguishing the different all-ins (especially Marauder Hellion or Mass Hellion) from standard speedbump Hellion play was difficult, but the Ferrarilords should've easily fixed that. There was simply no reason to buff the Queen, which is now flat out a better combat unit than the Roach (seriously, Queens have more range, more HP, same armor, shoot air, do same damage even to armoured targets like Marauders (from which they don't take extra damage either), while doing double duty as a healer and a Barracks. For no larvae, for no gas. Sounds good to me.
The complaint isn't oh no midgame pushes are weaker. The complaint is you have to commit very heavily to pressure the Zerg because the 6-Queen opener laughs off all kinds of light pressure whether from ground or air, and that the Zerg can by nature just outgreed whatever you come up with while being insanely much safer than you can while being super greedy. They can also just flip a switch and kill that greed, so yeah. Pretty conclusively behind in the early game without a heavily committed attack against super greedy fast expand play. Sounds like balance.
Add to that the super creepspread nerfing midgame timings, Zerg being able to tech like madmen with the new super Queens (and then mass Infestors, which incidentally work against everything like Ghosts used to) for safety and Blizzard in it's infinite wisdom deciding that Terran late game should consist only of answers without any new actual threats (aka things that force answers like Broods, Colossi or mass Ultra) unless they somehow manage to get into the ultra-lategame where they can actually try going for Raven-Battlecruiser, and Terran is behind for the whole damn matchup unless they all-in or manage to get into the ultra lategame by some miracle.
This isn't balanced except by the most pedantic of definitions, let alone good game design. Nor does it make for enjoyable games to watch. But sadly, Blizzard does not have a clue, does not care, and the players don't care because anything but pressing sdddd is being behind. It's amazing to read complaints about having to build Roaches to shoo the Hellions away. My own mindset was always "Wow, I can just build a safety Warren, leave it at that and press srrrr if I sniff pressure coming, kill it and press sdddd and laugh all the way to the bank". For some reason, brokenness should be standard. It's funny how Street Fighter players discuss balance far more civilly and productively than RTS players ever could. You're smarter than that, surely?
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On August 10 2012 22:22 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote:
no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry. I actually started drone scouting again vs T because they do the most stupid stuff in months.
One can see in Korean winrates what happens if you actually try to figure out smth. new. Foreigner Terrans just are comfortable crying because they were used to deny everything with just 4 hellions ( which is pretty ridiculous ).
and lol @ cloud crying that 2 base "timings" aka. allins got slightly nerfed due to faster overlords.
OH MY GOSH IM TERRAN / PROTOSS I HAVE TO GO INTO MACRO GAME ?
OHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGOD
+ its ridiculous demanding harder zerg mechanics then there is a race called protoss in this game. Everything wrong with the zerg mentality is summarized so well in this post that it's amazing.
everything wrong with ur mentality is summarized with your post as well, back to the point, game is balanced, creep change will make terran > zerg again but tvp and zvp will remain roughly the same.
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On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote:
One can see in Korean winrates what happens if you actually try to figure out smth. new. Foreigner Terrans just are comfortable crying because they were used to deny everything with just 4 hellions ( which is pretty ridiculous ).
Pre Queen patch Terran investment for 6 helions: 150/100+600+50/50=800/150
Pre Queen patch Zerg investment to counter helions 150 + 50 + 300/100= 450/100
Not sure how that was imbalanced for terran.
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On August 10 2012 22:53 X3GoldDot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 22:22 Dalavita wrote:On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote:
no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry. I actually started drone scouting again vs T because they do the most stupid stuff in months.
One can see in Korean winrates what happens if you actually try to figure out smth. new. Foreigner Terrans just are comfortable crying because they were used to deny everything with just 4 hellions ( which is pretty ridiculous ).
and lol @ cloud crying that 2 base "timings" aka. allins got slightly nerfed due to faster overlords.
OH MY GOSH IM TERRAN / PROTOSS I HAVE TO GO INTO MACRO GAME ?
OHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGOD
+ its ridiculous demanding harder zerg mechanics then there is a race called protoss in this game. Everything wrong with the zerg mentality is summarized so well in this post that it's amazing. everything wrong with ur mentality is summarized with your post as well, back to the point, game is balanced, creep change will make terran > zerg again but tvp and zvp will remain roughly the same.
Lol, these posts.
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Brunei Darussalam566 Posts
On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote:
no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry. I actually started drone scouting again vs T because they do the most stupid stuff in months.
One can see in Korean winrates what happens if you actually try to figure out smth. new. Foreigner Terrans just are comfortable crying because they were used to deny everything with just 4 hellions ( which is pretty ridiculous ).
and lol @ cloud crying that 2 base "timings" aka. allins got slightly nerfed due to faster overlords.
OH MY GOSH IM TERRAN / PROTOSS I HAVE TO GO INTO MACRO GAME ?
OHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGOD
+ its ridiculous demanding harder zerg mechanics then there is a race called protoss in this game.
Quality post, man. You nearly convinced me with all those caps. I'm pretty sure you're qualified to say that every foreign terran is struggling and "comfortable crying" because they simply do not figure out "something new".
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On August 10 2012 22:22 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote:
no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry. I actually started drone scouting again vs T because they do the most stupid stuff in months.
One can see in Korean winrates what happens if you actually try to figure out smth. new. Foreigner Terrans just are comfortable crying because they were used to deny everything with just 4 hellions ( which is pretty ridiculous ).
and lol @ cloud crying that 2 base "timings" aka. allins got slightly nerfed due to faster overlords.
OH MY GOSH IM TERRAN / PROTOSS I HAVE TO GO INTO MACRO GAME ?
OHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGOD
+ its ridiculous demanding harder zerg mechanics then there is a race called protoss in this game. Everything wrong with the zerg mentality is summarized so well in this post that it's amazing.
But you have to admit that there is a spark of truth in it.
Protoss used to 4gate a lot, they really refined their 1 Base play. When they found out they could quite safely expand by using mass sentries, they didnt bother entering a macro game but developed 2 Base all-ins. With the possibility of FFE the next step was: even faster 2Base all-ins.
And its not too far away from what terran did. Jinro had a reputation because he was one of the very few "terran macro players" while most other terrans tried to abuse their early and midgame advantage to the max.
Nothing wrong with that, if you got an advantage use it. But dont tell me that Toss/Terran ever tried to macro hard in the past.
Pre Queen patch Terran investment for 6 helions: 150/100+600+50/50=800/150
Pre Queen patch Zerg investment to counter helions 150 + 50 + 300/100= 450/100
Not sure how that was imbalanced for terran.
A Roachwarren and 4 Roaches will do shit against 6 (Prepatch) Hellions.
You still cant spread creep and you still cant expand as hellions are so much faster than roaches. Hellions just sit at the edge of your creep or your 3rd and wait for you to be stupid enough to "scare them off" as the will laugh at you and just roast drones at your main/natural where your roaches are NOT and wont be for a long time.
So you can add 100 + 150 + 75 + 75 + 50 +50 +50 to your nice sum to stay safe and suddenly you are quite even with the exception that T got his 3rd before you and will continue to use Fatory and reactor while your Roachwarren and Roaches are just wasted.
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On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote:
no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry. I actually started drone scouting again vs T because they do the most stupid stuff in months.
One can see in Korean winrates what happens if you actually try to figure out smth. new. Foreigner Terrans just are comfortable crying because they were used to deny everything with just 4 hellions ( which is pretty ridiculous ).
and lol @ cloud crying that 2 base "timings" aka. allins got slightly nerfed due to faster overlords.
OH MY GOSH IM TERRAN / PROTOSS I HAVE TO GO INTO MACRO GAME ?
OHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGOD
+ its ridiculous demanding harder zerg mechanics then there is a race called protoss in this game. this is so true, but i must say that protoss is ahrder than you think...
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On August 10 2012 22:58 xPabt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote:
One can see in Korean winrates what happens if you actually try to figure out smth. new. Foreigner Terrans just are comfortable crying because they were used to deny everything with just 4 hellions ( which is pretty ridiculous ).
Pre Queen patch Terran investment for 6 helions: 150/100+600+50/50=800/150 Pre Queen patch Zerg investment to counter helions 150 + 50 + 300/100= 450/100 Not sure how that was imbalanced for terran.
You forgot the cost of the barracks, refinery and extractor.
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On August 10 2012 22:58 xPabt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote:
One can see in Korean winrates what happens if you actually try to figure out smth. new. Foreigner Terrans just are comfortable crying because they were used to deny everything with just 4 hellions ( which is pretty ridiculous ).
Pre Queen patch Terran investment for 6 helions: 150/100+600+50/50=800/150 Pre Queen patch Zerg investment to counter helions 150 + 50 + 300/100= 450/100 Not sure how that was imbalanced for terran.
But that means I can't press sddddd. That is, by IdrA school standards, imbalanced.
Also, funny how it's okay for BL/Infestor to force pure counters but wrong for Hellions to. I guess only Zerg should have forcing moves in this game? (A concept from the Go world, where a move is relatively harmless if responded to properly, but disastrous if not responded to. That is, it forces a response. Reactor Hellion fits this to a T.)
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EPT
