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On August 11 2012 00:52 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +Both you and the all-caps guy really should queue up a game as terran or protoss, and let zerg drone up to 90 by the time you are at 65 scvs/probes, and let them get up that infestor/BL army because you went for a straight up macro game. Then when you get destroyed by the most powerful composition currently in the game, made by the race that has the economy lead, maybe then you will understand why there are so many two base timings. And I told you Toss/Terra didnt do anything else than 1 base or 2 base timings before infestor/Bl even came into existence. You really want to sell me that 1,5 years back the nostradamus terran and the mayan protoss have forseen that there will be an uber unit combo and startet to train their 1 and 2 base all-ins because they where afraid of the future apocalypse?
i dont understand this.
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On August 11 2012 01:22 Tom Cruise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 00:52 Charon1979 wrote:Both you and the all-caps guy really should queue up a game as terran or protoss, and let zerg drone up to 90 by the time you are at 65 scvs/probes, and let them get up that infestor/BL army because you went for a straight up macro game. Then when you get destroyed by the most powerful composition currently in the game, made by the race that has the economy lead, maybe then you will understand why there are so many two base timings. And I told you Toss/Terra didnt do anything else than 1 base or 2 base timings before infestor/Bl even came into existence. You really want to sell me that 1,5 years back the nostradamus terran and the mayan protoss have forseen that there will be an uber unit combo and startet to train their 1 and 2 base all-ins because they where afraid of the future apocalypse? i dont understand this.
I did, but it doesn't matter. He is still ignoring what you are saying
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On August 11 2012 01:57 Elairec wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 01:22 Tom Cruise wrote:On August 11 2012 00:52 Charon1979 wrote:Both you and the all-caps guy really should queue up a game as terran or protoss, and let zerg drone up to 90 by the time you are at 65 scvs/probes, and let them get up that infestor/BL army because you went for a straight up macro game. Then when you get destroyed by the most powerful composition currently in the game, made by the race that has the economy lead, maybe then you will understand why there are so many two base timings. And I told you Toss/Terra didnt do anything else than 1 base or 2 base timings before infestor/Bl even came into existence. You really want to sell me that 1,5 years back the nostradamus terran and the mayan protoss have forseen that there will be an uber unit combo and startet to train their 1 and 2 base all-ins because they where afraid of the future apocalypse? i dont understand this. I did, but it doesn't matter. He is still ignoring what you are saying
but i never said anything.
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my bad, assumed the person he quoted was you.
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Oh man, I wish more pros would flame each other in balance threads on TL. Mad props to Cloud and Idra!
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On August 08 2012 23:55 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 23:54 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:51 IdrA wrote:On August 08 2012 23:44 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:40 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:39 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:38 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote:
Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate. Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon. are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?  Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty. but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe. youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it. I have never seen you microing your units properly and horrible players like jonnyrecco win over people like naniwa. If you really think zerg players are better right now then I won't argue with you to pop the fantasy bubble you live in. Just enjoy the nonsense that's going on right now and try to win as much as you can while it lasts. did you watch how naniwa played that series? jonnyrecco was far better than him in those games. and if you wanna talk about a fantasy bubble, try looking at terran's win rate in.... all of starcraft2. terran players were just always the superior players right?
Not always, no, but as of late, yes. For the longest time, nobody other than DRG and Nestea were able to compete at the top level, and it wasn't because of imbalance. It was because nobody else seemed to have the mechanical or reactive ability that those two players did. But look at Terran. There have always been like 5-10 truly incredibly mechanical players. Protoss? For a long time it was MC, then some more got added on, and now there's a decent number of pretty awesome mechanically and strategically brilliant Protoss.
I don't even play Terran and have no reason to defend them, but they definitely do have the most truly top level players, just from a mechanical point of view. Right now, there honestly are a few really awesome Zergs who can compete. For some reason, there just don't seem to be a lot of them at the moment. It's not really a balance thing since the most strategically/mechanically skilled Zergs are capable of beating the best players from the other races pretty reliably. But vice versa doesn't seem to be true, and, in fact, some of the better T/P players are basically totally out of their element against Zerg during the late game. If that doesn't say something, nothing does.
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On August 11 2012 00:52 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +Both you and the all-caps guy really should queue up a game as terran or protoss, and let zerg drone up to 90 by the time you are at 65 scvs/probes, and let them get up that infestor/BL army because you went for a straight up macro game. Then when you get destroyed by the most powerful composition currently in the game, made by the race that has the economy lead, maybe then you will understand why there are so many two base timings. And I told you Toss/Terra didnt do anything else than 1 base or 2 base timings before infestor/Bl even came into existence. You really want to sell me that 1,5 years back the nostradamus terran and the mayan protoss have forseen that there will be an uber unit combo and startet to train their 1 and 2 base all-ins because they where afraid of the future apocalypse?
Erm... a year and a half ago every protoss and thier moms did 3 base colossus void ray deathball and zergs whined to high heaven about it. That is what led to the infstor buff and which then led to BL/infestor.There were two one and two base all ins that got very popular before that, one being the 4gate at release, and then the other being the 6 gate timing, which was the answer to Zerg 2 base muta play.
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On August 11 2012 03:47 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 23:55 IdrA wrote:On August 08 2012 23:54 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:51 IdrA wrote:On August 08 2012 23:44 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:40 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:39 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:38 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote:
Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate. Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon. are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea? Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty. but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe. youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it. I have never seen you microing your units properly and horrible players like jonnyrecco win over people like naniwa. If you really think zerg players are better right now then I won't argue with you to pop the fantasy bubble you live in. Just enjoy the nonsense that's going on right now and try to win as much as you can while it lasts. did you watch how naniwa played that series? jonnyrecco was far better than him in those games. and if you wanna talk about a fantasy bubble, try looking at terran's win rate in.... all of starcraft2. terran players were just always the superior players right? Not always, no, but as of late, yes. For the longest time, nobody other than DRG and Nestea were able to compete at the top level, and it wasn't because of imbalance. It was because nobody else seemed to have the mechanical or reactive ability that those two players did. But look at Terran. There have always been like 5-10 truly incredibly mechanical players. Protoss? For a long time it was MC, then some more got added on, and now there's a decent number of pretty awesome mechanically and strategically brilliant Protoss. I don't even play Terran and have no reason to defend them, but they definitely do have the most truly top level players, just from a mechanical point of view. Right now, there honestly are a few really awesome Zergs who can compete. For some reason, there just don't seem to be a lot of them at the moment. It's not really a balance thing since the most strategically/mechanically skilled Zergs are capable of beating the best players from the other races pretty reliably. But vice versa doesn't seem to be true, and, in fact, some of the better T/P players are basically totally out of their element against Zerg during the late game. If that doesn't say something, nothing does.
Maybe they don't look as impressive mechanically because you don't realize how macro taxing zerg is, just because it's not as showy as splitting marines doesn't mean that the race isn't mechanically difficult.
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On August 12 2012 04:44 the`postman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 03:47 Shiori wrote:On August 08 2012 23:55 IdrA wrote:On August 08 2012 23:54 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:51 IdrA wrote:On August 08 2012 23:44 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:40 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:39 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:38 aTnClouD wrote:
[quote]
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon. are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea? Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty. but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe. youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it. I have never seen you microing your units properly and horrible players like jonnyrecco win over people like naniwa. If you really think zerg players are better right now then I won't argue with you to pop the fantasy bubble you live in. Just enjoy the nonsense that's going on right now and try to win as much as you can while it lasts. did you watch how naniwa played that series? jonnyrecco was far better than him in those games. and if you wanna talk about a fantasy bubble, try looking at terran's win rate in.... all of starcraft2. terran players were just always the superior players right? Not always, no, but as of late, yes. For the longest time, nobody other than DRG and Nestea were able to compete at the top level, and it wasn't because of imbalance. It was because nobody else seemed to have the mechanical or reactive ability that those two players did. But look at Terran. There have always been like 5-10 truly incredibly mechanical players. Protoss? For a long time it was MC, then some more got added on, and now there's a decent number of pretty awesome mechanically and strategically brilliant Protoss. I don't even play Terran and have no reason to defend them, but they definitely do have the most truly top level players, just from a mechanical point of view. Right now, there honestly are a few really awesome Zergs who can compete. For some reason, there just don't seem to be a lot of them at the moment. It's not really a balance thing since the most strategically/mechanically skilled Zergs are capable of beating the best players from the other races pretty reliably. But vice versa doesn't seem to be true, and, in fact, some of the better T/P players are basically totally out of their element against Zerg during the late game. If that doesn't say something, nothing does. Maybe they don't look as impressive mechanically because you don't realize how macro taxing zerg is, just because it's not as showy as splitting marines doesn't mean that the race isn't mechanically difficult.
Zerg macro is taxing? The entirety of zergs macro consists of remembering to larva inject on a timer, which develops as muscle memory after a while.
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On August 10 2012 23:42 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote:
no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry. Never read something more wrong then this. Do you really think all terrans play like that? Players like kas and thorzain do macrobuilds whole the time, just like gumiho and taeja. I (1500 master) do macro builds whole the time. You ever macroed against zerg? You ever had to play against broodlord + infestor?
You should watch a replay of Kas and compare it to a Korean terran. "I am going to move out with all my marines clumped up in one ball without splitting, onto zerg creep, without pre positioning my tanks so that two fungals can wipe out my army!" "lets also never deny zerg creep after my timing attack, so that it reaches my 4th and I am contained on 3 bases!!"
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France12909 Posts
Lol IdrA talking about sitting and bitching, pretty funny considering that's exactly what he did while really good zergs such as Stephano were raping koreans protoss left and right kinda easily.
Oh the irony...
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On August 12 2012 09:30 .Sic. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 23:42 Snowbear wrote:On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote:
no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry. Never read something more wrong then this. Do you really think all terrans play like that? Players like kas and thorzain do macrobuilds whole the time, just like gumiho and taeja. I (1500 master) do macro builds whole the time. You ever macroed against zerg? You ever had to play against broodlord + infestor? You should watch a replay of Kas and compare it to a Korean terran. "I am going to move out with all my marines clumped up in one ball without splitting, onto zerg creep, without pre positioning my tanks so that two fungals can wipe out my army!" "lets also never deny zerg creep after my timing attack, so that it reaches my 4th and I am contained on 3 bases!!"
Whenever I see a Zerg talking about spreading Marines or Vikings out against Fungal, I remember all those times where a Zerg loses 10 Broodlords to one Vortex. And this is something that happens to top Korean Zergs on a regular basis.
But I guess they play Zerg so it's fine.
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On August 12 2012 04:44 the`postman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 03:47 Shiori wrote:On August 08 2012 23:55 IdrA wrote:On August 08 2012 23:54 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:51 IdrA wrote:On August 08 2012 23:44 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:40 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:39 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:38 aTnClouD wrote:
[quote]
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon. are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea? Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty. but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe. youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it. I have never seen you microing your units properly and horrible players like jonnyrecco win over people like naniwa. If you really think zerg players are better right now then I won't argue with you to pop the fantasy bubble you live in. Just enjoy the nonsense that's going on right now and try to win as much as you can while it lasts. did you watch how naniwa played that series? jonnyrecco was far better than him in those games. and if you wanna talk about a fantasy bubble, try looking at terran's win rate in.... all of starcraft2. terran players were just always the superior players right? Not always, no, but as of late, yes. For the longest time, nobody other than DRG and Nestea were able to compete at the top level, and it wasn't because of imbalance. It was because nobody else seemed to have the mechanical or reactive ability that those two players did. But look at Terran. There have always been like 5-10 truly incredibly mechanical players. Protoss? For a long time it was MC, then some more got added on, and now there's a decent number of pretty awesome mechanically and strategically brilliant Protoss. I don't even play Terran and have no reason to defend them, but they definitely do have the most truly top level players, just from a mechanical point of view. Right now, there honestly are a few really awesome Zergs who can compete. For some reason, there just don't seem to be a lot of them at the moment. It's not really a balance thing since the most strategically/mechanically skilled Zergs are capable of beating the best players from the other races pretty reliably. But vice versa doesn't seem to be true, and, in fact, some of the better T/P players are basically totally out of their element against Zerg during the late game. If that doesn't say something, nothing does. Maybe they don't look as impressive mechanically because you don't realize how macro taxing zerg is, just because it's not as showy as splitting marines doesn't mean that the race isn't mechanically difficult.
Whether or not it's taxing isn't relevant. What's relevant is that it isn't a reaction. It's muscle memory. Every ~40 seconds, without fail, you do your Injects. There's no regularity to splitting Marines or using FFs or whatever, which is why so many T/P players lose when they react too late and get all their units Fungaled or get owned by a runby.
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On August 12 2012 09:59 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 09:30 .Sic. wrote:On August 10 2012 23:42 Snowbear wrote:On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote:
no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry. Never read something more wrong then this. Do you really think all terrans play like that? Players like kas and thorzain do macrobuilds whole the time, just like gumiho and taeja. I (1500 master) do macro builds whole the time. You ever macroed against zerg? You ever had to play against broodlord + infestor? You should watch a replay of Kas and compare it to a Korean terran. "I am going to move out with all my marines clumped up in one ball without splitting, onto zerg creep, without pre positioning my tanks so that two fungals can wipe out my army!" "lets also never deny zerg creep after my timing attack, so that it reaches my 4th and I am contained on 3 bases!!" Whenever I see a Zerg talking about spreading Marines or Vikings out against Fungal, I remember all those times where a Zerg loses 10 Broodlords to one Vortex. And this is something that happens to top Korean Zergs on a regular basis. But I guess they play Zerg so it's fine.
Stimmed marines moves about 6 times faster than a broodlord. A compareable example would be 10 vikings getting 'caught' in a fungal, which happens to top terrans all the time. Vikings that are smaller and moves way faster.
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On August 12 2012 10:10 BBMorti wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 09:59 Toadvine wrote:On August 12 2012 09:30 .Sic. wrote:On August 10 2012 23:42 Snowbear wrote:On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote:
no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry. Never read something more wrong then this. Do you really think all terrans play like that? Players like kas and thorzain do macrobuilds whole the time, just like gumiho and taeja. I (1500 master) do macro builds whole the time. You ever macroed against zerg? You ever had to play against broodlord + infestor? You should watch a replay of Kas and compare it to a Korean terran. "I am going to move out with all my marines clumped up in one ball without splitting, onto zerg creep, without pre positioning my tanks so that two fungals can wipe out my army!" "lets also never deny zerg creep after my timing attack, so that it reaches my 4th and I am contained on 3 bases!!" Whenever I see a Zerg talking about spreading Marines or Vikings out against Fungal, I remember all those times where a Zerg loses 10 Broodlords to one Vortex. And this is something that happens to top Korean Zergs on a regular basis. But I guess they play Zerg so it's fine. Stimmed marines moves about 6 times faster than a broodlord. A compareable example would be 10 vikings getting 'caught' in a fungal, which happens to top terrans all the time. Vikings that are smaller and moves way faster.
Lol? You have nothing else to control aside from BLs. You have Fungal. Motherships are pretty much as slow as BLs. They don't exactly come out of nowhere.
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On August 12 2012 10:03 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 04:44 the`postman wrote:On August 11 2012 03:47 Shiori wrote:On August 08 2012 23:55 IdrA wrote:On August 08 2012 23:54 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:51 IdrA wrote:On August 08 2012 23:44 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:40 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:39 nkr wrote:[quote] are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea? Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty. but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe. youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it. I have never seen you microing your units properly and horrible players like jonnyrecco win over people like naniwa. If you really think zerg players are better right now then I won't argue with you to pop the fantasy bubble you live in. Just enjoy the nonsense that's going on right now and try to win as much as you can while it lasts. did you watch how naniwa played that series? jonnyrecco was far better than him in those games. and if you wanna talk about a fantasy bubble, try looking at terran's win rate in.... all of starcraft2. terran players were just always the superior players right? Not always, no, but as of late, yes. For the longest time, nobody other than DRG and Nestea were able to compete at the top level, and it wasn't because of imbalance. It was because nobody else seemed to have the mechanical or reactive ability that those two players did. But look at Terran. There have always been like 5-10 truly incredibly mechanical players. Protoss? For a long time it was MC, then some more got added on, and now there's a decent number of pretty awesome mechanically and strategically brilliant Protoss. I don't even play Terran and have no reason to defend them, but they definitely do have the most truly top level players, just from a mechanical point of view. Right now, there honestly are a few really awesome Zergs who can compete. For some reason, there just don't seem to be a lot of them at the moment. It's not really a balance thing since the most strategically/mechanically skilled Zergs are capable of beating the best players from the other races pretty reliably. But vice versa doesn't seem to be true, and, in fact, some of the better T/P players are basically totally out of their element against Zerg during the late game. If that doesn't say something, nothing does. Maybe they don't look as impressive mechanically because you don't realize how macro taxing zerg is, just because it's not as showy as splitting marines doesn't mean that the race isn't mechanically difficult. Whether or not it's taxing isn't relevant. What's relevant is that it isn't a reaction. It's muscle memory. Every ~40 seconds, without fail, you do your Injects. There's no regularity to splitting Marines or using FFs or whatever, which is why so many T/P players lose when they react too late and get all their units Fungaled or get owned by a runby.
Splitting units or using fields is no less based on experience and practice than are injects. Whatever you understand by 'muscle memory', those two certainly fall in the category of being applied without conscious deliberation. It happens in the now on the basis of practice.
What is certain is this: Among the top players, the zergs in general tend to have a higher average APM. DRG, monster, golden, stephano, losira all have higher than 350, most towards 400 apm. I can think of two players lower than 300 on the top level - nestea and leenock. They both struggle when they get to lategame.
The terrans? Taeja reaches 370 apm. MMA, MVP, Puma are all sub 350. Marinking hovers around 250 APM. By far the majority of the code S terrans are sub 300.
Protosses tell the same story, only even more pronounced.
Now, this doesn't mean that playing zerg is the hardest. But it does seem top indicate that to play zerg at the highest level is more mechanically demanding than playing terran or protoss. And that is okay. Maybe the other races takes more deliberation, more thought put into builds or more precision. But the race that requires speed at the highest level? Zerg.
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On August 12 2012 10:16 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 10:10 BBMorti wrote:On August 12 2012 09:59 Toadvine wrote:On August 12 2012 09:30 .Sic. wrote:On August 10 2012 23:42 Snowbear wrote:On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote:
no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry. Never read something more wrong then this. Do you really think all terrans play like that? Players like kas and thorzain do macrobuilds whole the time, just like gumiho and taeja. I (1500 master) do macro builds whole the time. You ever macroed against zerg? You ever had to play against broodlord + infestor? You should watch a replay of Kas and compare it to a Korean terran. "I am going to move out with all my marines clumped up in one ball without splitting, onto zerg creep, without pre positioning my tanks so that two fungals can wipe out my army!" "lets also never deny zerg creep after my timing attack, so that it reaches my 4th and I am contained on 3 bases!!" Whenever I see a Zerg talking about spreading Marines or Vikings out against Fungal, I remember all those times where a Zerg loses 10 Broodlords to one Vortex. And this is something that happens to top Korean Zergs on a regular basis. But I guess they play Zerg so it's fine. Stimmed marines moves about 6 times faster than a broodlord. A compareable example would be 10 vikings getting 'caught' in a fungal, which happens to top terrans all the time. Vikings that are smaller and moves way faster. Lol? You have nothing else to control aside from BLs. You have Fungal. Motherships are pretty much as slow as BLs. They don't exactly come out of nowhere.
How is that relevant to the argument you are trying to make? Avoiding to be caught should surely be easier with a faster unit when you put it up as black and white as you try here..
The situation can dictate other factors, of course.
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On August 12 2012 10:21 BBMorti wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 10:16 Shiori wrote:On August 12 2012 10:10 BBMorti wrote:On August 12 2012 09:59 Toadvine wrote:On August 12 2012 09:30 .Sic. wrote:On August 10 2012 23:42 Snowbear wrote:On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote:
no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry. Never read something more wrong then this. Do you really think all terrans play like that? Players like kas and thorzain do macrobuilds whole the time, just like gumiho and taeja. I (1500 master) do macro builds whole the time. You ever macroed against zerg? You ever had to play against broodlord + infestor? You should watch a replay of Kas and compare it to a Korean terran. "I am going to move out with all my marines clumped up in one ball without splitting, onto zerg creep, without pre positioning my tanks so that two fungals can wipe out my army!" "lets also never deny zerg creep after my timing attack, so that it reaches my 4th and I am contained on 3 bases!!" Whenever I see a Zerg talking about spreading Marines or Vikings out against Fungal, I remember all those times where a Zerg loses 10 Broodlords to one Vortex. And this is something that happens to top Korean Zergs on a regular basis. But I guess they play Zerg so it's fine. Stimmed marines moves about 6 times faster than a broodlord. A compareable example would be 10 vikings getting 'caught' in a fungal, which happens to top terrans all the time. Vikings that are smaller and moves way faster. Lol? You have nothing else to control aside from BLs. You have Fungal. Motherships are pretty much as slow as BLs. They don't exactly come out of nowhere. How is that relevant to the argument you are trying to make? Avoiding to be caught should surely be easier with a faster unit when you put it up as black and white as you try here.. The situation can dictate other factors, of course.
It's not when a) Terrans have to split a huge number of Marines (i.e. an entire army) rather than just one group and b) Banelings move a lot faster than Motherships.
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On August 12 2012 10:10 BBMorti wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 09:59 Toadvine wrote:On August 12 2012 09:30 .Sic. wrote:On August 10 2012 23:42 Snowbear wrote:On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote:
no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry. Never read something more wrong then this. Do you really think all terrans play like that? Players like kas and thorzain do macrobuilds whole the time, just like gumiho and taeja. I (1500 master) do macro builds whole the time. You ever macroed against zerg? You ever had to play against broodlord + infestor? You should watch a replay of Kas and compare it to a Korean terran. "I am going to move out with all my marines clumped up in one ball without splitting, onto zerg creep, without pre positioning my tanks so that two fungals can wipe out my army!" "lets also never deny zerg creep after my timing attack, so that it reaches my 4th and I am contained on 3 bases!!" Whenever I see a Zerg talking about spreading Marines or Vikings out against Fungal, I remember all those times where a Zerg loses 10 Broodlords to one Vortex. And this is something that happens to top Korean Zergs on a regular basis. But I guess they play Zerg so it's fine. Stimmed marines moves about 6 times faster than a broodlord. A compareable example would be 10 vikings getting 'caught' in a fungal, which happens to top terrans all the time. Vikings that are smaller and moves way faster.
Nobody pre-spreads Marines vs Fungal with Stim, and unstimmed marines move at normal speed. Terrans need to keep their Marines and Vikings constantly spread against multiple Infestors on creep, and this doesn't even give them an advantage, just makes the engagement "even". The only thing a Zerg needs to do is keep his Broodlords reasonably spread against one slow Mothership, with energy for two Vortexes at most, one of which can be forced with a Corruptor suicide squad; avoiding a good Vortex usually wins the game for the Zerg outright. And yet they still can't do it.
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On August 12 2012 10:17 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 10:03 Shiori wrote:On August 12 2012 04:44 the`postman wrote:On August 11 2012 03:47 Shiori wrote:On August 08 2012 23:55 IdrA wrote:On August 08 2012 23:54 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:51 IdrA wrote:On August 08 2012 23:44 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:40 aTnClouD wrote:
[quote]
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty. but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe. youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it. I have never seen you microing your units properly and horrible players like jonnyrecco win over people like naniwa. If you really think zerg players are better right now then I won't argue with you to pop the fantasy bubble you live in. Just enjoy the nonsense that's going on right now and try to win as much as you can while it lasts. did you watch how naniwa played that series? jonnyrecco was far better than him in those games. and if you wanna talk about a fantasy bubble, try looking at terran's win rate in.... all of starcraft2. terran players were just always the superior players right? Not always, no, but as of late, yes. For the longest time, nobody other than DRG and Nestea were able to compete at the top level, and it wasn't because of imbalance. It was because nobody else seemed to have the mechanical or reactive ability that those two players did. But look at Terran. There have always been like 5-10 truly incredibly mechanical players. Protoss? For a long time it was MC, then some more got added on, and now there's a decent number of pretty awesome mechanically and strategically brilliant Protoss. I don't even play Terran and have no reason to defend them, but they definitely do have the most truly top level players, just from a mechanical point of view. Right now, there honestly are a few really awesome Zergs who can compete. For some reason, there just don't seem to be a lot of them at the moment. It's not really a balance thing since the most strategically/mechanically skilled Zergs are capable of beating the best players from the other races pretty reliably. But vice versa doesn't seem to be true, and, in fact, some of the better T/P players are basically totally out of their element against Zerg during the late game. If that doesn't say something, nothing does. Maybe they don't look as impressive mechanically because you don't realize how macro taxing zerg is, just because it's not as showy as splitting marines doesn't mean that the race isn't mechanically difficult. Whether or not it's taxing isn't relevant. What's relevant is that it isn't a reaction. It's muscle memory. Every ~40 seconds, without fail, you do your Injects. There's no regularity to splitting Marines or using FFs or whatever, which is why so many T/P players lose when they react too late and get all their units Fungaled or get owned by a runby. Splitting units or using fields is no less based on experience and practice than are injects. Whatever you understand by 'muscle memory', those two certainly fall in the category of being applied without conscious deliberation. It happens in the now on the basis of practice. What is certain is this: Among the top players, the zergs in general tend to have a higher average APM. DRG, monster, golden, stephano, losira all have higher than 350, most towards 400 apm. I can think of two players lower than 300 on the top level - nestea and leenock. They both struggle when they get to lategame. The terrans? Taeja reaches 370 apm. MMA, MVP, Puma are all sub 350. Marinking hovers around 250 APM. By far the majority of the code S terrans are sub 300. Protosses tell the same story, only even more pronounced. Now, this doesn't mean that playing zerg is the hardest. But it does seem top indicate that to play zerg at the highest level is more mechanically demanding than playing terran or protoss. And that is okay. Maybe the other races takes more deliberation, more thought put into builds or more precision. But the race that requires speed at the highest level? Zerg.
I have no idea where you're getting those numbers, please post some sources. Of the replays I've watched top terrans are always way way way faster, not just in the apm department but without a doubt in the micro and multi tasking department. The main problem is, you can't play terran passively. Playing passively and defending is infinitely easier than playing offensively. Terran is the only race that is required to constantly take swings at their opponent because they don't have anything amazing in the late game, like storm or brood lords (just 2 examples, there are may more).
In any case Zerg requires the least apm and multi tasking to be effective because you don't actually have to do anything. You can just sit on your ass and macro up to the late game defending everything you know the terran is forced to throw at you. Let's be real here, sitting around and focusing 100 percent on making drones, injects and creep spread is not hard. If you're constantly having to fight WHILE doing that stuff then we can talk, but zerg in the current metagame and maps is way easier to play than toss or terran.
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