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^
Consider that Zergs needs the highest APM of all the races and then maybe you will realise why your arguments doesn't work.. you can't just say 'Zerg only needs to do this' .. you are looking at a small part of their APM needs.
MKP doesn't have the APM to play zerg at the highest level, he is the king of marine splits/micro. According to the guy who looked into their average APM's
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On August 12 2012 10:30 Neurosis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 10:17 m0ck wrote:On August 12 2012 10:03 Shiori wrote:On August 12 2012 04:44 the`postman wrote:On August 11 2012 03:47 Shiori wrote:On August 08 2012 23:55 IdrA wrote:On August 08 2012 23:54 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:51 IdrA wrote:On August 08 2012 23:44 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 nkr wrote:
[quote]
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe. youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it. I have never seen you microing your units properly and horrible players like jonnyrecco win over people like naniwa. If you really think zerg players are better right now then I won't argue with you to pop the fantasy bubble you live in. Just enjoy the nonsense that's going on right now and try to win as much as you can while it lasts. did you watch how naniwa played that series? jonnyrecco was far better than him in those games. and if you wanna talk about a fantasy bubble, try looking at terran's win rate in.... all of starcraft2. terran players were just always the superior players right? Not always, no, but as of late, yes. For the longest time, nobody other than DRG and Nestea were able to compete at the top level, and it wasn't because of imbalance. It was because nobody else seemed to have the mechanical or reactive ability that those two players did. But look at Terran. There have always been like 5-10 truly incredibly mechanical players. Protoss? For a long time it was MC, then some more got added on, and now there's a decent number of pretty awesome mechanically and strategically brilliant Protoss. I don't even play Terran and have no reason to defend them, but they definitely do have the most truly top level players, just from a mechanical point of view. Right now, there honestly are a few really awesome Zergs who can compete. For some reason, there just don't seem to be a lot of them at the moment. It's not really a balance thing since the most strategically/mechanically skilled Zergs are capable of beating the best players from the other races pretty reliably. But vice versa doesn't seem to be true, and, in fact, some of the better T/P players are basically totally out of their element against Zerg during the late game. If that doesn't say something, nothing does. Maybe they don't look as impressive mechanically because you don't realize how macro taxing zerg is, just because it's not as showy as splitting marines doesn't mean that the race isn't mechanically difficult. Whether or not it's taxing isn't relevant. What's relevant is that it isn't a reaction. It's muscle memory. Every ~40 seconds, without fail, you do your Injects. There's no regularity to splitting Marines or using FFs or whatever, which is why so many T/P players lose when they react too late and get all their units Fungaled or get owned by a runby. Splitting units or using fields is no less based on experience and practice than are injects. Whatever you understand by 'muscle memory', those two certainly fall in the category of being applied without conscious deliberation. It happens in the now on the basis of practice. What is certain is this: Among the top players, the zergs in general tend to have a higher average APM. DRG, monster, golden, stephano, losira all have higher than 350, most towards 400 apm. I can think of two players lower than 300 on the top level - nestea and leenock. They both struggle when they get to lategame. The terrans? Taeja reaches 370 apm. MMA, MVP, Puma are all sub 350. Marinking hovers around 250 APM. By far the majority of the code S terrans are sub 300. Protosses tell the same story, only even more pronounced. Now, this doesn't mean that playing zerg is the hardest. But it does seem top indicate that to play zerg at the highest level is more mechanically demanding than playing terran or protoss. And that is okay. Maybe the other races takes more deliberation, more thought put into builds or more precision. But the race that requires speed at the highest level? Zerg. I have no idea where you're getting those numbers, please post some sources. Of the replays I've watched top terrans are always way way way faster, not just in the apm department but without a doubt in the micro and multi tasking department. The main problem is, you can't play terran passively. Playing passively and defending is infinitely easier than playing offensively. Terran is the only race that is required to constantly take swings at their opponent because they don't have anything amazing in the late game, like storm or brood lords (just 2 examples, there are may more). In any case Zerg requires the least apm and multi tasking to be effective because you don't actually have to do anything. You can just sit on your ass and macro up to the late game defending everything you know the terran is forced to throw at you.
Well, you could always check replays, but I sense that you're on the lazy/preconceived side and have a hard time looking past what you want to be true. Well, check majorleaguegaming.com or redbullusa.com. Both of the sites keep statistics of the players participating in the tournaments.
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On August 12 2012 10:37 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 10:30 Neurosis wrote:On August 12 2012 10:17 m0ck wrote:On August 12 2012 10:03 Shiori wrote:On August 12 2012 04:44 the`postman wrote:On August 11 2012 03:47 Shiori wrote:On August 08 2012 23:55 IdrA wrote:On August 08 2012 23:54 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:51 IdrA wrote:On August 08 2012 23:44 aTnClouD wrote:
[quote]
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe. youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it. I have never seen you microing your units properly and horrible players like jonnyrecco win over people like naniwa. If you really think zerg players are better right now then I won't argue with you to pop the fantasy bubble you live in. Just enjoy the nonsense that's going on right now and try to win as much as you can while it lasts. did you watch how naniwa played that series? jonnyrecco was far better than him in those games. and if you wanna talk about a fantasy bubble, try looking at terran's win rate in.... all of starcraft2. terran players were just always the superior players right? Not always, no, but as of late, yes. For the longest time, nobody other than DRG and Nestea were able to compete at the top level, and it wasn't because of imbalance. It was because nobody else seemed to have the mechanical or reactive ability that those two players did. But look at Terran. There have always been like 5-10 truly incredibly mechanical players. Protoss? For a long time it was MC, then some more got added on, and now there's a decent number of pretty awesome mechanically and strategically brilliant Protoss. I don't even play Terran and have no reason to defend them, but they definitely do have the most truly top level players, just from a mechanical point of view. Right now, there honestly are a few really awesome Zergs who can compete. For some reason, there just don't seem to be a lot of them at the moment. It's not really a balance thing since the most strategically/mechanically skilled Zergs are capable of beating the best players from the other races pretty reliably. But vice versa doesn't seem to be true, and, in fact, some of the better T/P players are basically totally out of their element against Zerg during the late game. If that doesn't say something, nothing does. Maybe they don't look as impressive mechanically because you don't realize how macro taxing zerg is, just because it's not as showy as splitting marines doesn't mean that the race isn't mechanically difficult. Whether or not it's taxing isn't relevant. What's relevant is that it isn't a reaction. It's muscle memory. Every ~40 seconds, without fail, you do your Injects. There's no regularity to splitting Marines or using FFs or whatever, which is why so many T/P players lose when they react too late and get all their units Fungaled or get owned by a runby. Splitting units or using fields is no less based on experience and practice than are injects. Whatever you understand by 'muscle memory', those two certainly fall in the category of being applied without conscious deliberation. It happens in the now on the basis of practice. What is certain is this: Among the top players, the zergs in general tend to have a higher average APM. DRG, monster, golden, stephano, losira all have higher than 350, most towards 400 apm. I can think of two players lower than 300 on the top level - nestea and leenock. They both struggle when they get to lategame. The terrans? Taeja reaches 370 apm. MMA, MVP, Puma are all sub 350. Marinking hovers around 250 APM. By far the majority of the code S terrans are sub 300. Protosses tell the same story, only even more pronounced. Now, this doesn't mean that playing zerg is the hardest. But it does seem top indicate that to play zerg at the highest level is more mechanically demanding than playing terran or protoss. And that is okay. Maybe the other races takes more deliberation, more thought put into builds or more precision. But the race that requires speed at the highest level? Zerg. I have no idea where you're getting those numbers, please post some sources. Of the replays I've watched top terrans are always way way way faster, not just in the apm department but without a doubt in the micro and multi tasking department. The main problem is, you can't play terran passively. Playing passively and defending is infinitely easier than playing offensively. Terran is the only race that is required to constantly take swings at their opponent because they don't have anything amazing in the late game, like storm or brood lords (just 2 examples, there are may more). In any case Zerg requires the least apm and multi tasking to be effective because you don't actually have to do anything. You can just sit on your ass and macro up to the late game defending everything you know the terran is forced to throw at you. Well, you could always check replays, but I sense that you're on the lazy/preconceived side and have a hard time looking past what you want to be true. Well, check majorleaguegaming.com or redbullusa.com. Both of the sites keep statistics of the players participating in the tournaments.
Excellent...dodge.
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On August 12 2012 10:39 Neurosis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 10:37 m0ck wrote:On August 12 2012 10:30 Neurosis wrote:On August 12 2012 10:17 m0ck wrote:On August 12 2012 10:03 Shiori wrote:On August 12 2012 04:44 the`postman wrote:On August 11 2012 03:47 Shiori wrote:On August 08 2012 23:55 IdrA wrote:On August 08 2012 23:54 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:51 IdrA wrote:
[quote]
youre not twice as good as anyone
terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it. I have never seen you microing your units properly and horrible players like jonnyrecco win over people like naniwa. If you really think zerg players are better right now then I won't argue with you to pop the fantasy bubble you live in. Just enjoy the nonsense that's going on right now and try to win as much as you can while it lasts. did you watch how naniwa played that series? jonnyrecco was far better than him in those games. and if you wanna talk about a fantasy bubble, try looking at terran's win rate in.... all of starcraft2. terran players were just always the superior players right? Not always, no, but as of late, yes. For the longest time, nobody other than DRG and Nestea were able to compete at the top level, and it wasn't because of imbalance. It was because nobody else seemed to have the mechanical or reactive ability that those two players did. But look at Terran. There have always been like 5-10 truly incredibly mechanical players. Protoss? For a long time it was MC, then some more got added on, and now there's a decent number of pretty awesome mechanically and strategically brilliant Protoss. I don't even play Terran and have no reason to defend them, but they definitely do have the most truly top level players, just from a mechanical point of view. Right now, there honestly are a few really awesome Zergs who can compete. For some reason, there just don't seem to be a lot of them at the moment. It's not really a balance thing since the most strategically/mechanically skilled Zergs are capable of beating the best players from the other races pretty reliably. But vice versa doesn't seem to be true, and, in fact, some of the better T/P players are basically totally out of their element against Zerg during the late game. If that doesn't say something, nothing does. Maybe they don't look as impressive mechanically because you don't realize how macro taxing zerg is, just because it's not as showy as splitting marines doesn't mean that the race isn't mechanically difficult. Whether or not it's taxing isn't relevant. What's relevant is that it isn't a reaction. It's muscle memory. Every ~40 seconds, without fail, you do your Injects. There's no regularity to splitting Marines or using FFs or whatever, which is why so many T/P players lose when they react too late and get all their units Fungaled or get owned by a runby. Splitting units or using fields is no less based on experience and practice than are injects. Whatever you understand by 'muscle memory', those two certainly fall in the category of being applied without conscious deliberation. It happens in the now on the basis of practice. What is certain is this: Among the top players, the zergs in general tend to have a higher average APM. DRG, monster, golden, stephano, losira all have higher than 350, most towards 400 apm. I can think of two players lower than 300 on the top level - nestea and leenock. They both struggle when they get to lategame. The terrans? Taeja reaches 370 apm. MMA, MVP, Puma are all sub 350. Marinking hovers around 250 APM. By far the majority of the code S terrans are sub 300. Protosses tell the same story, only even more pronounced. Now, this doesn't mean that playing zerg is the hardest. But it does seem top indicate that to play zerg at the highest level is more mechanically demanding than playing terran or protoss. And that is okay. Maybe the other races takes more deliberation, more thought put into builds or more precision. But the race that requires speed at the highest level? Zerg. I have no idea where you're getting those numbers, please post some sources. Of the replays I've watched top terrans are always way way way faster, not just in the apm department but without a doubt in the micro and multi tasking department. The main problem is, you can't play terran passively. Playing passively and defending is infinitely easier than playing offensively. Terran is the only race that is required to constantly take swings at their opponent because they don't have anything amazing in the late game, like storm or brood lords (just 2 examples, there are may more). In any case Zerg requires the least apm and multi tasking to be effective because you don't actually have to do anything. You can just sit on your ass and macro up to the late game defending everything you know the terran is forced to throw at you. Well, you could always check replays, but I sense that you're on the lazy/preconceived side and have a hard time looking past what you want to be true. Well, check majorleaguegaming.com or redbullusa.com. Both of the sites keep statistics of the players participating in the tournaments. Excellent...dodge.
http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/players/profiles/MarineKing - Average APM 257
http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/players/profiles/DongRaeGu - Average APM 392
Check other profiles on the site to compare. MKP who is regarded to have the most pristine bio micro according to many fans is actually quite 'slow'.
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On August 12 2012 10:41 BBMorti wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 10:39 Neurosis wrote:On August 12 2012 10:37 m0ck wrote:On August 12 2012 10:30 Neurosis wrote:On August 12 2012 10:17 m0ck wrote:On August 12 2012 10:03 Shiori wrote:On August 12 2012 04:44 the`postman wrote:On August 11 2012 03:47 Shiori wrote:On August 08 2012 23:55 IdrA wrote:On August 08 2012 23:54 aTnClouD wrote:
[quote]
I have never seen you microing your units properly and horrible players like jonnyrecco win over people like naniwa. If you really think zerg players are better right now then I won't argue with you to pop the fantasy bubble you live in. Just enjoy the nonsense that's going on right now and try to win as much as you can while it lasts. did you watch how naniwa played that series? jonnyrecco was far better than him in those games. and if you wanna talk about a fantasy bubble, try looking at terran's win rate in.... all of starcraft2. terran players were just always the superior players right? Not always, no, but as of late, yes. For the longest time, nobody other than DRG and Nestea were able to compete at the top level, and it wasn't because of imbalance. It was because nobody else seemed to have the mechanical or reactive ability that those two players did. But look at Terran. There have always been like 5-10 truly incredibly mechanical players. Protoss? For a long time it was MC, then some more got added on, and now there's a decent number of pretty awesome mechanically and strategically brilliant Protoss. I don't even play Terran and have no reason to defend them, but they definitely do have the most truly top level players, just from a mechanical point of view. Right now, there honestly are a few really awesome Zergs who can compete. For some reason, there just don't seem to be a lot of them at the moment. It's not really a balance thing since the most strategically/mechanically skilled Zergs are capable of beating the best players from the other races pretty reliably. But vice versa doesn't seem to be true, and, in fact, some of the better T/P players are basically totally out of their element against Zerg during the late game. If that doesn't say something, nothing does. Maybe they don't look as impressive mechanically because you don't realize how macro taxing zerg is, just because it's not as showy as splitting marines doesn't mean that the race isn't mechanically difficult. Whether or not it's taxing isn't relevant. What's relevant is that it isn't a reaction. It's muscle memory. Every ~40 seconds, without fail, you do your Injects. There's no regularity to splitting Marines or using FFs or whatever, which is why so many T/P players lose when they react too late and get all their units Fungaled or get owned by a runby. Splitting units or using fields is no less based on experience and practice than are injects. Whatever you understand by 'muscle memory', those two certainly fall in the category of being applied without conscious deliberation. It happens in the now on the basis of practice. What is certain is this: Among the top players, the zergs in general tend to have a higher average APM. DRG, monster, golden, stephano, losira all have higher than 350, most towards 400 apm. I can think of two players lower than 300 on the top level - nestea and leenock. They both struggle when they get to lategame. The terrans? Taeja reaches 370 apm. MMA, MVP, Puma are all sub 350. Marinking hovers around 250 APM. By far the majority of the code S terrans are sub 300. Protosses tell the same story, only even more pronounced. Now, this doesn't mean that playing zerg is the hardest. But it does seem top indicate that to play zerg at the highest level is more mechanically demanding than playing terran or protoss. And that is okay. Maybe the other races takes more deliberation, more thought put into builds or more precision. But the race that requires speed at the highest level? Zerg. I have no idea where you're getting those numbers, please post some sources. Of the replays I've watched top terrans are always way way way faster, not just in the apm department but without a doubt in the micro and multi tasking department. The main problem is, you can't play terran passively. Playing passively and defending is infinitely easier than playing offensively. Terran is the only race that is required to constantly take swings at their opponent because they don't have anything amazing in the late game, like storm or brood lords (just 2 examples, there are may more). In any case Zerg requires the least apm and multi tasking to be effective because you don't actually have to do anything. You can just sit on your ass and macro up to the late game defending everything you know the terran is forced to throw at you. Well, you could always check replays, but I sense that you're on the lazy/preconceived side and have a hard time looking past what you want to be true. Well, check majorleaguegaming.com or redbullusa.com. Both of the sites keep statistics of the players participating in the tournaments. Excellent...dodge. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/players/profiles/MarineKing - Average APM 257 http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/players/profiles/DongRaeGu - Average APM 392 Check other profiles on the site to compare. MKP who is regarded to have the most pristine bio micro according to many fans is actually quite 'slow'.
MKP is a timing attack oriented player, no one has ever claimed he is a mechanical genius like DRG. That said, those numbers are way too high from all the replays ive seen of both players (probably 50 drg replays and 100 + mkp replays). MKP's average apm seems to float around 180ish and drg around 250ish.
Players like MMA, MVP, Keen, ST. Hack, even Bomber, these guys all have around 250-300ish average apm consistently and they are definitely less timing attack oriented than marine king. Not that they don't throw in some cheese, but my point is you just compared literally the biggest Zerg beast in the entire game with a brainy micro player.
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On August 12 2012 10:45 Neurosis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 10:41 BBMorti wrote:On August 12 2012 10:39 Neurosis wrote:On August 12 2012 10:37 m0ck wrote:On August 12 2012 10:30 Neurosis wrote:On August 12 2012 10:17 m0ck wrote:On August 12 2012 10:03 Shiori wrote:On August 12 2012 04:44 the`postman wrote:On August 11 2012 03:47 Shiori wrote:On August 08 2012 23:55 IdrA wrote:
[quote]
did you watch how naniwa played that series? jonnyrecco was far better than him in those games.
and if you wanna talk about a fantasy bubble, try looking at terran's win rate in.... all of starcraft2. terran players were just always the superior players right? Not always, no, but as of late, yes. For the longest time, nobody other than DRG and Nestea were able to compete at the top level, and it wasn't because of imbalance. It was because nobody else seemed to have the mechanical or reactive ability that those two players did. But look at Terran. There have always been like 5-10 truly incredibly mechanical players. Protoss? For a long time it was MC, then some more got added on, and now there's a decent number of pretty awesome mechanically and strategically brilliant Protoss. I don't even play Terran and have no reason to defend them, but they definitely do have the most truly top level players, just from a mechanical point of view. Right now, there honestly are a few really awesome Zergs who can compete. For some reason, there just don't seem to be a lot of them at the moment. It's not really a balance thing since the most strategically/mechanically skilled Zergs are capable of beating the best players from the other races pretty reliably. But vice versa doesn't seem to be true, and, in fact, some of the better T/P players are basically totally out of their element against Zerg during the late game. If that doesn't say something, nothing does. Maybe they don't look as impressive mechanically because you don't realize how macro taxing zerg is, just because it's not as showy as splitting marines doesn't mean that the race isn't mechanically difficult. Whether or not it's taxing isn't relevant. What's relevant is that it isn't a reaction. It's muscle memory. Every ~40 seconds, without fail, you do your Injects. There's no regularity to splitting Marines or using FFs or whatever, which is why so many T/P players lose when they react too late and get all their units Fungaled or get owned by a runby. Splitting units or using fields is no less based on experience and practice than are injects. Whatever you understand by 'muscle memory', those two certainly fall in the category of being applied without conscious deliberation. It happens in the now on the basis of practice. What is certain is this: Among the top players, the zergs in general tend to have a higher average APM. DRG, monster, golden, stephano, losira all have higher than 350, most towards 400 apm. I can think of two players lower than 300 on the top level - nestea and leenock. They both struggle when they get to lategame. The terrans? Taeja reaches 370 apm. MMA, MVP, Puma are all sub 350. Marinking hovers around 250 APM. By far the majority of the code S terrans are sub 300. Protosses tell the same story, only even more pronounced. Now, this doesn't mean that playing zerg is the hardest. But it does seem top indicate that to play zerg at the highest level is more mechanically demanding than playing terran or protoss. And that is okay. Maybe the other races takes more deliberation, more thought put into builds or more precision. But the race that requires speed at the highest level? Zerg. I have no idea where you're getting those numbers, please post some sources. Of the replays I've watched top terrans are always way way way faster, not just in the apm department but without a doubt in the micro and multi tasking department. The main problem is, you can't play terran passively. Playing passively and defending is infinitely easier than playing offensively. Terran is the only race that is required to constantly take swings at their opponent because they don't have anything amazing in the late game, like storm or brood lords (just 2 examples, there are may more). In any case Zerg requires the least apm and multi tasking to be effective because you don't actually have to do anything. You can just sit on your ass and macro up to the late game defending everything you know the terran is forced to throw at you. Well, you could always check replays, but I sense that you're on the lazy/preconceived side and have a hard time looking past what you want to be true. Well, check majorleaguegaming.com or redbullusa.com. Both of the sites keep statistics of the players participating in the tournaments. Excellent...dodge. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/players/profiles/MarineKing - Average APM 257 http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/players/profiles/DongRaeGu - Average APM 392 Check other profiles on the site to compare. MKP who is regarded to have the most pristine bio micro according to many fans is actually quite 'slow'. MKP is a timing attack oriented player, no one has ever claimed he is a mechanical genius like DRG. That said, those numbers are way too high from all the replays ive seen of both players (probably 50 drg replays and 100 + mkp replays). MKP's average apm seems to float around 180ish and drg around 250ish.
I think it's a safe bet to believe the MLG stats over what you want to be the truth based on replays you watched. Remember that a marinesplit is a much more 'obvious' APM usage than so many others, especially macro actions. I would consider if I was taking my beliefs a bit too far if I ended up denying even MLG stats on stuff like this.
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It's pointless to compare APMs. Zerg gets massive APM boost from Inject/Creep/Overlord split etc. etc. T/P have no comparable sink.
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France12904 Posts
Lol DRG has a very high apm but only half of it is his eApm, MKP is on the other hand the pro player with the least redundancy (Spam).
Almost every zerg have high redundancy, with high apm and not so high eApm.
Protoss players have less eapm in general because of how the races work.
But since eAPM has nothing to do with mechanics it's a pretty pointless debate lol.
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On August 12 2012 10:49 BBMorti wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 10:45 Neurosis wrote:On August 12 2012 10:41 BBMorti wrote:On August 12 2012 10:39 Neurosis wrote:On August 12 2012 10:37 m0ck wrote:On August 12 2012 10:30 Neurosis wrote:On August 12 2012 10:17 m0ck wrote:On August 12 2012 10:03 Shiori wrote:On August 12 2012 04:44 the`postman wrote:On August 11 2012 03:47 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
Not always, no, but as of late, yes. For the longest time, nobody other than DRG and Nestea were able to compete at the top level, and it wasn't because of imbalance. It was because nobody else seemed to have the mechanical or reactive ability that those two players did. But look at Terran. There have always been like 5-10 truly incredibly mechanical players. Protoss? For a long time it was MC, then some more got added on, and now there's a decent number of pretty awesome mechanically and strategically brilliant Protoss.
I don't even play Terran and have no reason to defend them, but they definitely do have the most truly top level players, just from a mechanical point of view. Right now, there honestly are a few really awesome Zergs who can compete. For some reason, there just don't seem to be a lot of them at the moment. It's not really a balance thing since the most strategically/mechanically skilled Zergs are capable of beating the best players from the other races pretty reliably. But vice versa doesn't seem to be true, and, in fact, some of the better T/P players are basically totally out of their element against Zerg during the late game. If that doesn't say something, nothing does. Maybe they don't look as impressive mechanically because you don't realize how macro taxing zerg is, just because it's not as showy as splitting marines doesn't mean that the race isn't mechanically difficult. Whether or not it's taxing isn't relevant. What's relevant is that it isn't a reaction. It's muscle memory. Every ~40 seconds, without fail, you do your Injects. There's no regularity to splitting Marines or using FFs or whatever, which is why so many T/P players lose when they react too late and get all their units Fungaled or get owned by a runby. Splitting units or using fields is no less based on experience and practice than are injects. Whatever you understand by 'muscle memory', those two certainly fall in the category of being applied without conscious deliberation. It happens in the now on the basis of practice. What is certain is this: Among the top players, the zergs in general tend to have a higher average APM. DRG, monster, golden, stephano, losira all have higher than 350, most towards 400 apm. I can think of two players lower than 300 on the top level - nestea and leenock. They both struggle when they get to lategame. The terrans? Taeja reaches 370 apm. MMA, MVP, Puma are all sub 350. Marinking hovers around 250 APM. By far the majority of the code S terrans are sub 300. Protosses tell the same story, only even more pronounced. Now, this doesn't mean that playing zerg is the hardest. But it does seem top indicate that to play zerg at the highest level is more mechanically demanding than playing terran or protoss. And that is okay. Maybe the other races takes more deliberation, more thought put into builds or more precision. But the race that requires speed at the highest level? Zerg. I have no idea where you're getting those numbers, please post some sources. Of the replays I've watched top terrans are always way way way faster, not just in the apm department but without a doubt in the micro and multi tasking department. The main problem is, you can't play terran passively. Playing passively and defending is infinitely easier than playing offensively. Terran is the only race that is required to constantly take swings at their opponent because they don't have anything amazing in the late game, like storm or brood lords (just 2 examples, there are may more). In any case Zerg requires the least apm and multi tasking to be effective because you don't actually have to do anything. You can just sit on your ass and macro up to the late game defending everything you know the terran is forced to throw at you. Well, you could always check replays, but I sense that you're on the lazy/preconceived side and have a hard time looking past what you want to be true. Well, check majorleaguegaming.com or redbullusa.com. Both of the sites keep statistics of the players participating in the tournaments. Excellent...dodge. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/players/profiles/MarineKing - Average APM 257 http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/players/profiles/DongRaeGu - Average APM 392 Check other profiles on the site to compare. MKP who is regarded to have the most pristine bio micro according to many fans is actually quite 'slow'. MKP is a timing attack oriented player, no one has ever claimed he is a mechanical genius like DRG. That said, those numbers are way too high from all the replays ive seen of both players (probably 50 drg replays and 100 + mkp replays). MKP's average apm seems to float around 180ish and drg around 250ish. I think it's a safe bet to believe the MLG stats over what you want to be the truth based on replays you watched. Remember that a marinesplit is a much more 'obvious' APM usage than so many others, especially macro actions. I would consider if I was taking my beliefs a bit too far if I ended up denying even MLG stats on stuff like this.
I don't WANT anything to be the truth, it just is. Those numbers are not right. Go download some MLG replays yourself if you don't believe me.
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On August 12 2012 10:32 BBMorti wrote:
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Consider that Zergs needs the highest APM of all the races and then maybe you will realise why your arguments doesn't work.. you can't just say 'Zerg only needs to do this' .. you are looking at a small part of their APM needs.
MKP doesn't have the APM to play zerg at the highest level, he is the king of marine splits/micro. According to the guy who looked into their average APM's
I saw that FP VoD of Moon playing at Assembly with his 400+ apm, and he was basically just spamming, clicking 10 times to set a rally point and other useless crap like that. In your opinion, what exactly does Zerg need to spend apm on in ZvP lategame, that is more important than spreading their Broodlords?
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Dear god.
This reminds me of 2010 when Zerg was 40% against terran.
And terran's arguement was "Well, Terran players are just better than Zergs! Zerg players just need to L2P!!!"
And now that Zerg has 55%... "OMG TERRAN IS WEAK! ZERG IS OP!"
While Zerg are saying "Well, Foriegn Zerg players are just better than Foriegn Terrans! Terran players just need to L2P!!!"
x-x
Even with a 5% difference...that's very balanced...
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Has there been any discussion as to the reason why Zergs have seen a recent jump in win % is because of a better map pool? Two years into the game, the map pool is just so much more developed, especially towards macro-friendly maps. It's only in recent BNet ladder seasons that we've FINALLY seen those last few maps with rocks at 3rds gone (just as an example), which may have lead to the overally perceived feeling that Zerg is "OP"?
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On August 12 2012 10:32 BBMorti wrote:
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Consider that Zergs needs the highest APM of all the races
Rofl this guyy over here got no clue how sc2 works rofl hahahahaaha
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On August 12 2012 10:32 BBMorti wrote:
^
Consider that Zergs needs the highest APM of all the races and then maybe you will realise why your arguments doesn't work.. you can't just say 'Zerg only needs to do this' .. you are looking at a small part of their APM needs.
MKP doesn't have the APM to play zerg at the highest level, he is the king of marine splits/micro. According to the guy who looked into their average APM's
what are you talking about? do you have any evidence to back up all these claims, friend
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On August 12 2012 14:23 Skamtet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 10:32 BBMorti wrote:
^
Consider that Zergs needs the highest APM of all the races and then maybe you will realise why your arguments doesn't work.. you can't just say 'Zerg only needs to do this' .. you are looking at a small part of their APM needs.
MKP doesn't have the APM to play zerg at the highest level, he is the king of marine splits/micro. According to the guy who looked into their average APM's
what are you talking about? do you have any evidence to back up all these claims, friend
Of course he does not. Most of the top korean pros play all races on ladder. MVP for instance plays zerg on ladder, there are quotes from interviews saying that MC has some of the best zerg in world. I can guarantee MKP has more than enough APM to play zerg at the highest level.
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On August 12 2012 10:32 BBMorti wrote:
^
Consider that Zergs needs the highest APM of all the races and then maybe you will realise why your arguments doesn't work.. you can't just say 'Zerg only needs to do this' .. you are looking at a small part of their APM needs.
MKP doesn't have the APM to play zerg at the highest level, he is the king of marine splits/micro. According to the guy who looked into their average APM's
I spit water on my keyboard haha
10/10 excellent troll, i expect alot of bites
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On August 12 2012 15:02 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 10:32 BBMorti wrote:
^
Consider that Zergs needs the highest APM of all the races and then maybe you will realise why your arguments doesn't work.. you can't just say 'Zerg only needs to do this' .. you are looking at a small part of their APM needs.
MKP doesn't have the APM to play zerg at the highest level, he is the king of marine splits/micro. According to the guy who looked into their average APM's
I spit water on my keyboard haha 10/10 excellent troll, i expect alot of bites
I spent a while contemplating it, but once I read his other posts I started to doubt he was actually trolling, or is it a trolling account? I don't know, but either he has been messing around for his last few posts too or he actually believes what he said. I think the best trolls still are somewhat obvious, otherwise people won't know and assume you are stupid.
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On August 12 2012 09:59 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 09:30 .Sic. wrote:On August 10 2012 23:42 Snowbear wrote:On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote:
no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry. Never read something more wrong then this. Do you really think all terrans play like that? Players like kas and thorzain do macrobuilds whole the time, just like gumiho and taeja. I (1500 master) do macro builds whole the time. You ever macroed against zerg? You ever had to play against broodlord + infestor? You should watch a replay of Kas and compare it to a Korean terran. "I am going to move out with all my marines clumped up in one ball without splitting, onto zerg creep, without pre positioning my tanks so that two fungals can wipe out my army!" "lets also never deny zerg creep after my timing attack, so that it reaches my 4th and I am contained on 3 bases!!" Whenever I see a Zerg talking about spreading Marines or Vikings out against Fungal, I remember all those times where a Zerg loses 10 Broodlords to one Vortex. And this is something that happens to top Korean Zergs on a regular basis. But I guess they play Zerg so it's fine.
Just cause they're korean, it doesn't make them decent. Now, stephano splits his broodlords really well, which is one of the many reasons why he's so good. If I ever get more than 4 broodlords vortexed and lose the game because of that, I've got myself to blame. Also terran has EMP and snipe, both of which *gasp* (HOLY SHIT WTF OMG TERRAN CAN COUNTER FUNGALS IF THEY BUILD SOMETHING OTHER THAN MARINES? NO FUCKING WAY) has longer range than fungals!! btw I heard seeker missiles were pretty good too.
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On August 12 2012 09:59 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 09:30 .Sic. wrote:On August 10 2012 23:42 Snowbear wrote:On August 10 2012 20:29 Kotschmonaut wrote:
no idra fan at all here, but he's spot on, every foreigner terran and all the dudes in ladder just play horrible and do mega stupid things, afterwards they cry. Never read something more wrong then this. Do you really think all terrans play like that? Players like kas and thorzain do macrobuilds whole the time, just like gumiho and taeja. I (1500 master) do macro builds whole the time. You ever macroed against zerg? You ever had to play against broodlord + infestor? You should watch a replay of Kas and compare it to a Korean terran. "I am going to move out with all my marines clumped up in one ball without splitting, onto zerg creep, without pre positioning my tanks so that two fungals can wipe out my army!" "lets also never deny zerg creep after my timing attack, so that it reaches my 4th and I am contained on 3 bases!!" Whenever I see a Zerg talking about spreading Marines or Vikings out against Fungal, I remember all those times where a Zerg loses 10 Broodlords to one Vortex. And this is something that happens to top Korean Zergs on a regular basis. But I guess they play Zerg so it's fine.
There's a 8 marine drop in my main ! Quickly, Send my whole army to defend aaaarghh !
Yeah, Zerg players seems to have a lot to learn still.
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On August 12 2012 10:49 Shiori wrote:
It's pointless to compare APMs. Zerg gets massive APM boost from Inject/Creep/Overlord split etc. etc. T/P have no comparable sink.
Actually it's because when you make a lot of units at once as zerg and hold down a button it counts each unit queued as a separate click so it inflates to 1000 easily.
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EPT
