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On August 01 2012 07:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Boring and irrelevant statistics.
A. No attempts to determine how many terrans actually participated in the tournaments, and no breakdown in how terrans dissipate through the brackets.
B. No comparison with past national tournaments in terms of race distribution.
C. The false assumption that terran had equal representation prior to the queen patch. Terran "dominance" in the first half of 2011 was strictly limited to Korea; terran has always been underrepresented in the international scene in terms of tournament placings.
D. The false assumption that every country has equal representation in both race and skill (which is the only way these numbers could be taken seriously in the first place).
The creator of the chart is a hack. He is well-known in the Reddit community for whining about terran.
Looks like you made all the assumptions and drew all the conclusions. At no point did he explain the statistics. The bias is actually quite hilarious.
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On August 01 2012 07:40 MadProbe wrote:
would be less biased if you added the % of all tournament participants that were terran.
otherwise kinda cool. finally terrans know how it feels.
Population has no effect on win rate. It has an effect on top* and such but no effect on win rate
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interesting! I think it would paint a better picture if it showed the breakdown of race in each tournement.
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United States15275 Posts
On August 01 2012 07:47 Jombozeus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 07:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Boring and irrelevant statistics.
A. No attempts to determine how many terrans actually participated in the tournaments, and no breakdown in how terrans dissipate through the brackets.
B. No comparison with past national tournaments in terms of race distribution.
C. The false assumption that terran had equal representation prior to the queen patch. Terran "dominance" in the first half of 2011 was strictly limited to Korea; terran has always been underrepresented in the international scene in terms of tournament placings.
D. The false assumption that every country has equal representation in both race and skill (which is the only way these numbers could be taken seriously in the first place).
The creator of the chart is a hack. He is well-known in the Reddit community for whining about terran. Looks like you made all the assumptions and drew all the conclusions. At no point did he explain the statistics. The bias is actually quite hilarious.
You're not very intelligent. My assumptions about his assumptions are true, since they are the only ways in which his statistics can be taken seriously. And since he is well-known for complaining about terran under-representation in tournaments (and making posts about statistics to whine about it), it's obvious what the point of his post is.
And did I mention that the sample size is too small to be relevant at all?
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zergs so good these days, wonder why :D
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Seeing the KR numbers is a bit surprising, however overall, this has been true for a very, very long time.
Terran has been the least successful race in both tournaments and ladder in EU and NA for as long as I can remember.
Terran has also been the least played race in NA and EU, various subjective conclusions can be drawn from that.
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On August 01 2012 07:31 MCXD wrote:
This is actually misleading, because terran is very underrepresented in america and europe (esp at high levels). Regardless of balance, it's expected statistically that there would be less terrans. For that reason alone, the statistics here can't be trusted to make the point that terran is underpowered.
Furthermore, if you look at korean matchup statistics recently, everything is actually pretty close to 50%.
Can you prove that there are less terrans?
Remember that most korean tournament results are gsl-made, in which the progamers prepare for a matchup, and perform snipe strategys. That is actually misleading.
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TBH kinda anecdotal.
Given each country has a different spread of skill
(NA, for example, Sheth, idra, vibe) Are better than the T/P players from here.
So idk.
And only recently has T adjusted fully to it.
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On August 01 2012 07:53 graNite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 07:31 MCXD wrote:
This is actually misleading, because terran is very underrepresented in america and europe (esp at high levels). Regardless of balance, it's expected statistically that there would be less terrans. For that reason alone, the statistics here can't be trusted to make the point that terran is underpowered.
Furthermore, if you look at korean matchup statistics recently, everything is actually pretty close to 50%. Can you prove that there are less terrans? Remember that most korean tournament results are gsl-made, in which the progamers prepare for a matchup, and perform snipe strategys. That is actually misleading.
Check my post on the last page.
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On August 01 2012 07:50 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 07:47 Jombozeus wrote:On August 01 2012 07:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Boring and irrelevant statistics.
A. No attempts to determine how many terrans actually participated in the tournaments, and no breakdown in how terrans dissipate through the brackets.
B. No comparison with past national tournaments in terms of race distribution.
C. The false assumption that terran had equal representation prior to the queen patch. Terran "dominance" in the first half of 2011 was strictly limited to Korea; terran has always been underrepresented in the international scene in terms of tournament placings.
D. The false assumption that every country has equal representation in both race and skill (which is the only way these numbers could be taken seriously in the first place).
The creator of the chart is a hack. He is well-known in the Reddit community for whining about terran. Looks like you made all the assumptions and drew all the conclusions. At no point did he explain the statistics. The bias is actually quite hilarious. You're not very intelligent. My assumptions about his assumptions are true, since they are the only ways in which his statistics can be taken seriously. And since he is well-known for complaining about terran under-representation in tournaments (and making posts about statistics to whine about it), it's obvious what the point of his post is.
3 things.
First off, I didn't make this image.
Second, this is pure data without analysis or anything.
Third, stop being a dick for now reason, not cool.
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I can't believe some of these non terran excuses. You really think that because T is slightly less represented in foreign tournaments that this will result in 45 players vs 85/86 in the top 8? That's nearly double for each other race in the top 8
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Chart is a bit terran biassed, don't really need the stars and bold underline in red numbers to examine it but good information nonetheless!
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On August 01 2012 07:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Boring and irrelevant statistics.
A. No attempts to determine how many terrans actually participated in the tournaments, and no breakdown in how terrans dissipate through the brackets.
B. No comparison with past national tournaments in terms of race distribution.
C. The false assumption that terran had equal representation prior to the queen patch. Terran "dominance" in the first half of 2011 was strictly limited to Korea; terran has always been underrepresented in the international scene in terms of tournament placings.
D. The false assumption that every country has equal representation in both race and skill (which is the only way these numbers could be taken seriously in the first place).
The creator of the chart is a hack. He is well-known in the Reddit community for whining about terran.
A) WCS is an open tournament. It means that low number of Terrans = they couldn't even qualify for the national level.
B) There was no national tournaments in the past, except for Sweden Championship at last Dreamhack.
C) There was underrepresented, but still, those few had much higher win right than now. That's why we use percentage, not pure numbers.
D) Every country has at least 3-4 good Terrans. There has to be a reason why guys like Tarson, DieStar, ClouD, Goody, KawaiiRice, TriMaster or BratOK didn't go through their national levels.
Statistic is a statistic, it couldn't be taken as a the only determinant, but has to be considered. And when it comes to statistics, it doesn't matter who did them as long as the data isn't fake.
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On August 01 2012 07:40 Toppp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 07:37 Detri wrote:
What people seem to forget is that a lot of the best players in Korea play terran, due to boxer. They would be good with any race. Could you imagine taeja microing mutas? or storms? Or gumiho's multitasking with a warp prism and ling runbys?? what does this have to do with anything?
It has something to do with the fact, that some people justifies the current state Terran as a race solely because a few top Korean Terran players are doing well. By that logic, one could however argue that the latest Zerg buffs should be reversed, given the fact that players like Stephano, DRG and Nestea was doing just fine without Queen range buff or Overlord speed buff.
It is also funny to note how next to unknown players such as Sortof and JonnyREcco all of a sudden manages to beat players such as SaSe and most notably NaNiwa. And even though ThorZaIN did beat Sortof in the last round of the finals, they practically played even, winning three games each.
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United States15275 Posts
On August 01 2012 07:58 Grapefruit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 07:50 CosmicSpiral wrote:On August 01 2012 07:47 Jombozeus wrote:On August 01 2012 07:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Boring and irrelevant statistics.
A. No attempts to determine how many terrans actually participated in the tournaments, and no breakdown in how terrans dissipate through the brackets.
B. No comparison with past national tournaments in terms of race distribution.
C. The false assumption that terran had equal representation prior to the queen patch. Terran "dominance" in the first half of 2011 was strictly limited to Korea; terran has always been underrepresented in the international scene in terms of tournament placings.
D. The false assumption that every country has equal representation in both race and skill (which is the only way these numbers could be taken seriously in the first place).
The creator of the chart is a hack. He is well-known in the Reddit community for whining about terran. Looks like you made all the assumptions and drew all the conclusions. At no point did he explain the statistics. The bias is actually quite hilarious. You're not very intelligent. My assumptions about his assumptions are true, since they are the only ways in which his statistics can be taken seriously. And since he is well-known for complaining about terran under-representation in tournaments (and making posts about statistics to whine about it), it's obvious what the point of his post is. 3 things. First off, I didn't make this image. Second, this is pure data without analysis or anything. Third, stop being a dick for now reason, not cool.
http://www.reddit.com/user/dv0rakftw
"48% of tourneys with 0 or 1 Terran and the same only for 7% Protoss and 4% Zerg is not massaging numbers.
IT'S NOTICING SOMETHING THAT IS FUCKED UP."
"The guys at Blizzard don't seem to understand it. I was done for at least a month, maybe longer, but every time I try to get out they drag me back in.
You're tired of the graphs? I'm more tired of the shitty TvZ games. You get dozens of new threads here every day. I get to look at brackets hoping Terrans get to dodge as many Zerg as possible. (I will however do tomorrow's post on Premier Tournaments as just text because Liquipedia's old results didn't have standard formatting.)
But good catch on me forgetting to mention that previous imbalance is no justification for current imbalance."
"Please skip the "more time for meta" and "things are fine in Korea" comments. We've heard it already. I also know TaeJa won at MLG and GuMiho won GSTL with an all-kill.
This isn't to say Terrans can't win. It's harder than it should be. TvZ has become less fun to watch. Even less so to play.
People who want to accuse me of cherry-picking data should also explain why Terrans are under-represented in GM on every server including Korea and why in July's TLPD stats, Terrans win less than 40% of TvZ matches on half the maps which have significant numbers. And please note I could have made it look even worse for Terran by taking out the three pre-patch events.
I will do a separate post, probably tomorrow, on Premier tournaments but I wanted to look at Top 8 in Blizzard's own worldwide tournaments.
To recap the infograph:
Almost half of WCS tournaments had one or no Terrans in the Top 8.
Almost half and just over a third of WCS tournaments had four or more Protoss and Zerg players respectively in the Top 8 while not a single one had more than three Terrans.
If there is a job available at Blizzard as Balance Statistician I am available. Please consider this and previous posts like this as my resume demonstrating my ability to count."
Pure data without analysis, right? Unbiased gathering of data right?
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On August 01 2012 07:58 Speake wrote:
I can't believe some of these non terran excuses. You really think that because T is slightly less represented in foreign tournaments that this will result in 45 players vs 85/86 in the top 8? That's nearly double for each other race in the top 8
I'm not sure about the other tournements. But the canadian wcs only had 7 terran. So in that case I think it would matter. But maybe its even worse because there is so few terrans that qualified for the tourny.
Not sure. just saying that less terran would make the top 8 when that many less terran in the tourny.
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These statistics obviously prove nothing just like last 20 tournaments there was 1 terran in finals it proves NOTHING.
Foreigner terrans are obviously awful players (all of them) which is main reason why they cant win, besides that terran is underpresented (wonder why) which is again reason why terran never wins - not enough terran players. If foreigners stoped whining and started practicing maybe they would win something, just look in Korea everything is fine, so many terrans still dominating and I will go as far to name all of them: Taeja.
MMA, MVP, MKP are obviously whiners that got no clue about the game saying that terran is worst race and I know what they need to do, they need to make RAVENS and start making new builds, I feel like they arent innovative enough.. But yeah with all the recent terran domination (Taeja winning 1 tournament) game is fine and people need to make more ravens, because one raven will deny ALL creep spread, kill 6 queens on its own and destroy zerg economy. Raven - weapon of future.
Also 4 months of tournament results is too low sample size to prove anything.
TLDR: 1)foreigner terrans are awful
2)make ravens.
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On August 01 2012 08:01 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 07:40 Toppp wrote:On August 01 2012 07:37 Detri wrote:
What people seem to forget is that a lot of the best players in Korea play terran, due to boxer. They would be good with any race. Could you imagine taeja microing mutas? or storms? Or gumiho's multitasking with a warp prism and ling runbys?? what does this have to do with anything? It has something to do with the fact, that some people justifies the current state Terran as a race solely because a few top Korean Terran players are doing well. By that logic, one could however argue that the latest Zerg buffs should be reversed, given the fact that players like Stephano, DRG and Nestea was doing just fine without Queen range buff or Overlord speed buff. It is also funny to note how next to unknown players such as Sortof and JonnyREcco all of a sudden manages to beat players such as SaSe and most notably NaNiwa. And even though ThorZaIN did beat Sortof in the last round of the finals, they practically played even, winning three games each.
It's not just a few good Terrans. Tons of Terrans in Korea are still doing fine. Nestea/DRG weren't doing fine without the queen buff they both got eliminated in the first round of the GSL pre-queen buff. In fact the season immediately before the queen buff was the worst zerg GSL season ever as far as zerg placements. I'm pretty sure that the dreamhack that Naniwa lost to 2 random zergs was before the queen buff. Plenty of other Protoss are beating good zergs.
Even this GSL season zerg didn't dominate the way they would have if they were truly imbalanced. Also there are only 2 zergs in top 16 of OSL and they are Nestea/DRG and it doesn't look like anymore will get through. Zergs also didn't do particularly good at WCS Korea with both Nestea and Symbol losing in the qualifiers.
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EPT
