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On August 01 2012 23:44 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 23:09 Shiori wrote:
I like how people blindly point to Korean Terrans doing well without considering the competition at all. Who is actually doing consistently great as a Terran against Zerg? Like, all the time against the highest level Zergs? I haven't seen anyone. MKP drops games to Idra now, Taeja has mostly been simply outclassing his opponents, etc. etc. Who exactly is crushing face as a Korean Terran on a regular basis (not some freak win once in awhile and discarding every game they lose). There is no blindly pointing to terran results, there is the simple fact that Korean terrans seemingly are doing fine in in every competition. In GSL, GSTL, MLG, WCG, WCS, OGS, TSL, IEM & IPL terrans are all well represented and are competitive in qualifiers. If you're asking who the terran is, who has the 70-80% winrate against zerg now? It's taeja. Oh, he doesn't count? Well, maybe then there aren't one. But tough titty, there were NEVER any zerg players who could put up those kind of numbers against terran. Never. Statistically, ZvT is DRGs worst match-up..
70-80% over what, the past 2 weeks? And against whom? Looks through his TLPD. A few top tier Zergs and a lot of rather not top-tier Zergs. I'm sure there are Zerg players who've achieved that. Bear in mind that Taeja wasn't even considered relevant by most people before July.
Either way, one Terran who is having recent success against Zerg doesn't prove anything, unless you wish to say that Fruitdealer's GSL run should have barred any Zerg buffs or map changes.
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Blizzard can fix all this by buffing Terran late game. My suggestions:
Change Snipe to its original damage (45 to all biological) but 30 or 35 to massive. At its current state we don't see ghosts in late game TvZ because one snipe can't even kill a bloody Zergling.
Make Ghost cost 75 minerals 150 vespene gas. With how bad Terran Mech vs. Zerg nowadays once it get o the late game Terrans usually bank up a lot of gas but are starving for minerals. Make with my suggested Snipe change and this cost adjustment Terrans will have a viable late game gas dump since Ghosts do fairly well as a stand-alone combat unit in addition to its crazy support utilities.
but yah fix Ghosts plz 
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On August 02 2012 00:11 BlitzerSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 23:44 m0ck wrote:On August 01 2012 23:09 Shiori wrote:
I like how people blindly point to Korean Terrans doing well without considering the competition at all. Who is actually doing consistently great as a Terran against Zerg? Like, all the time against the highest level Zergs? I haven't seen anyone. MKP drops games to Idra now, Taeja has mostly been simply outclassing his opponents, etc. etc. Who exactly is crushing face as a Korean Terran on a regular basis (not some freak win once in awhile and discarding every game they lose). There is no blindly pointing to terran results, there is the simple fact that Korean terrans seemingly are doing fine in in every competition. In GSL, GSTL, MLG, WCG, WCS, OGS, TSL, IEM & IPL terrans are all well represented and are competitive in qualifiers. If you're asking who the terran is, who has the 70-80% winrate against zerg now? It's taeja. Oh, he doesn't count? Well, maybe then there aren't one. But tough titty, there were NEVER any zerg players who could put up those kind of numbers against terran. Never. Statistically, ZvT is DRGs worst match-up.. Well represented ( terran is not well represented at all, but whatever ) =/= balanced. The problem is that right now the Zerg has the upper hands all games long. If you try to macro you will lose because terran macro is inferior to zerg macro ( it's a FACT ), if you try to go for early harass you will either kill a few drones ( with few I mean less than 5 ) or even none. Terran also isn't flexible and can't handle the other races techswitches fast enough. The game concept is flawed and right now Zerg is in fact overpowered ( OMG I said it ), it's starting to get really boring to watch and to play. Now, to all the people who says that Terran not being well represented doesn't show a really bad balance situation, let's go back when the game was released ( first GSL ). The ladder was FULL of terran, the pros were almost all terran but a zerg still managed to win the GSL. Today the ladder is FULL of zerg, the pros are almost all protoss or zerg ( there aren't many good terran players ) and Terran players aren't winning the most prestigious SC2 tournament on the planet. Back then everyone agreed that T was OP ( and it got nerfed ), but today we see Zerg players say that the game is fine as it is, well let me tell you something: You are all hypocrites. Enjoy your game where both the players only macro for 50 minutes without doing anything else.
Look, zerg may very well be 'imbalanced' at lower levels. I don't know. But what is clear, is that Korean terrans are handling their zerg brethren just fine. Look at the results. Though terran initially struggled after the queen-patch, things have evened up in Korea since then. Can you imagine the outcry of imbalance if it had been zergs dominating the WCG-qualifier like terran are doing at the moment (9T, 2Z, 5P)? If it had been zenio rather than taeja who kept all-killing teams in IPL? If it had been leenock rather than gumiho who had all-killed in the GSTL final? If it had been a zerg who won the ESV Grand Prix? If zergs would be outnumbering terrans in the next season of code S, rather than the other way around?
But it wasn't and it isn't and it won't be. Zerg are not out-doing terrans at the moment in Korea. It's hard for some to swallow, but it's right there in the results. Which is why some don't want to pay attention to them.
That doesn't mean that their complaints of imbalance are not relevant - they might be true. But it means that balance are different at different levels of play and that we're stuck with the question: Knowing that, how do we balance the game?
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On August 02 2012 00:32 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 00:11 BlitzerSC wrote:On August 01 2012 23:44 m0ck wrote:On August 01 2012 23:09 Shiori wrote:
I like how people blindly point to Korean Terrans doing well without considering the competition at all. Who is actually doing consistently great as a Terran against Zerg? Like, all the time against the highest level Zergs? I haven't seen anyone. MKP drops games to Idra now, Taeja has mostly been simply outclassing his opponents, etc. etc. Who exactly is crushing face as a Korean Terran on a regular basis (not some freak win once in awhile and discarding every game they lose). There is no blindly pointing to terran results, there is the simple fact that Korean terrans seemingly are doing fine in in every competition. In GSL, GSTL, MLG, WCG, WCS, OGS, TSL, IEM & IPL terrans are all well represented and are competitive in qualifiers. If you're asking who the terran is, who has the 70-80% winrate against zerg now? It's taeja. Oh, he doesn't count? Well, maybe then there aren't one. But tough titty, there were NEVER any zerg players who could put up those kind of numbers against terran. Never. Statistically, ZvT is DRGs worst match-up.. Well represented ( terran is not well represented at all, but whatever ) =/= balanced. The problem is that right now the Zerg has the upper hands all games long. If you try to macro you will lose because terran macro is inferior to zerg macro ( it's a FACT ), if you try to go for early harass you will either kill a few drones ( with few I mean less than 5 ) or even none. Terran also isn't flexible and can't handle the other races techswitches fast enough. The game concept is flawed and right now Zerg is in fact overpowered ( OMG I said it ), it's starting to get really boring to watch and to play. Now, to all the people who says that Terran not being well represented doesn't show a really bad balance situation, let's go back when the game was released ( first GSL ). The ladder was FULL of terran, the pros were almost all terran but a zerg still managed to win the GSL. Today the ladder is FULL of zerg, the pros are almost all protoss or zerg ( there aren't many good terran players ) and Terran players aren't winning the most prestigious SC2 tournament on the planet. Back then everyone agreed that T was OP ( and it got nerfed ), but today we see Zerg players say that the game is fine as it is, well let me tell you something: You are all hypocrites. Enjoy your game where both the players only macro for 50 minutes without doing anything else. Look, zerg may very well be 'imbalanced' at lower levels. But what is clear, is that Korean terrans are handling their zerg brethren just fine. Look at the results. Though terran initially struggled after the queen-patch, things have evened up in Korea since then. Can you imagine the outcry of imbalance if it had been zergs dominating the WCG-qualifier like terran are doing at the moment (9T, 2Z, 5P)? If it had been zenio rather than taeja who kept all-killing teams? If it had been leenock rather than gumiho who had all-killed in the GSTL final? If it had been a zerg who won the ESV Grand Prix? If zergs would be outnumbering terrans in the next season of code S, rather than the other way around? But it wasn't and it isn't and it won't be. Zerg are not out-doing terrans at the moment in Korea. It's hard for some to swallow, but it's right there in the results. Which is why some don't want to pay attention to them. That doesn't mean that their complaints of imbalance are not relevant - they might be true. But it means that balance are different at different levels of play and that we're stuck with the question: Knowing that, how do we balance the game?
Supply an argument from the point of view of Korean Zerg to justify the Queen buff. It was entirely aimed at players who were losing regularly to runbys and Hellion map control. Korean Zergs were not among these, evidenced by their lack of complaints on the issue and complete indifference to the patch (DRG even remarking that it rewards poor play and that he didn't need it).
How do you justify this?
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On August 01 2012 07:31 MCXD wrote:
This is actually misleading, because terran is very underrepresented in america and europe (esp at high levels). Regardless of balance, it's expected statistically that there would be less terrans. For that reason alone, the statistics here can't be trusted to make the point that terran is underpowered.
Furthermore, if you look at korean matchup statistics recently, everything is actually pretty close to 50%.
But my friend, have you ever asked yourself WHY terran is underrepresented.
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You should relate this statistics to the recent DB interview, where he says that if there were no terran in like top8 or top4 then they would agree that the queen change was overkill.
Either he doesn't know what the statistics are, or he thinks that no terran in 50% of top8 is okay statistics for the game.
I should read this thread more. Maybe I'll find more fun comments as to how terran should play to beat zerg.
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On August 02 2012 00:34 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 00:32 m0ck wrote:On August 02 2012 00:11 BlitzerSC wrote:On August 01 2012 23:44 m0ck wrote:On August 01 2012 23:09 Shiori wrote:
I like how people blindly point to Korean Terrans doing well without considering the competition at all. Who is actually doing consistently great as a Terran against Zerg? Like, all the time against the highest level Zergs? I haven't seen anyone. MKP drops games to Idra now, Taeja has mostly been simply outclassing his opponents, etc. etc. Who exactly is crushing face as a Korean Terran on a regular basis (not some freak win once in awhile and discarding every game they lose). There is no blindly pointing to terran results, there is the simple fact that Korean terrans seemingly are doing fine in in every competition. In GSL, GSTL, MLG, WCG, WCS, OGS, TSL, IEM & IPL terrans are all well represented and are competitive in qualifiers. If you're asking who the terran is, who has the 70-80% winrate against zerg now? It's taeja. Oh, he doesn't count? Well, maybe then there aren't one. But tough titty, there were NEVER any zerg players who could put up those kind of numbers against terran. Never. Statistically, ZvT is DRGs worst match-up.. Well represented ( terran is not well represented at all, but whatever ) =/= balanced. The problem is that right now the Zerg has the upper hands all games long. If you try to macro you will lose because terran macro is inferior to zerg macro ( it's a FACT ), if you try to go for early harass you will either kill a few drones ( with few I mean less than 5 ) or even none. Terran also isn't flexible and can't handle the other races techswitches fast enough. The game concept is flawed and right now Zerg is in fact overpowered ( OMG I said it ), it's starting to get really boring to watch and to play. Now, to all the people who says that Terran not being well represented doesn't show a really bad balance situation, let's go back when the game was released ( first GSL ). The ladder was FULL of terran, the pros were almost all terran but a zerg still managed to win the GSL. Today the ladder is FULL of zerg, the pros are almost all protoss or zerg ( there aren't many good terran players ) and Terran players aren't winning the most prestigious SC2 tournament on the planet. Back then everyone agreed that T was OP ( and it got nerfed ), but today we see Zerg players say that the game is fine as it is, well let me tell you something: You are all hypocrites. Enjoy your game where both the players only macro for 50 minutes without doing anything else. Look, zerg may very well be 'imbalanced' at lower levels. But what is clear, is that Korean terrans are handling their zerg brethren just fine. Look at the results. Though terran initially struggled after the queen-patch, things have evened up in Korea since then. Can you imagine the outcry of imbalance if it had been zergs dominating the WCG-qualifier like terran are doing at the moment (9T, 2Z, 5P)? If it had been zenio rather than taeja who kept all-killing teams? If it had been leenock rather than gumiho who had all-killed in the GSTL final? If it had been a zerg who won the ESV Grand Prix? If zergs would be outnumbering terrans in the next season of code S, rather than the other way around? But it wasn't and it isn't and it won't be. Zerg are not out-doing terrans at the moment in Korea. It's hard for some to swallow, but it's right there in the results. Which is why some don't want to pay attention to them. That doesn't mean that their complaints of imbalance are not relevant - they might be true. But it means that balance are different at different levels of play and that we're stuck with the question: Knowing that, how do we balance the game? Supply an argument from the point of view of Korean Zerg to justify the Queen buff. It was entirely aimed at players who were losing regularly to runbys and Hellion map control. Korean Zergs were not among these, evidenced by their lack of complaints on the issue and complete indifference to the patch (DRG even remarking that it rewards poor play and that he didn't need it). How do you justify this?
Haha, that's another argument for another time.
Let me rephrase to make my argument less antagonistic:
Zerg may be OP, even at Korean levels. But if they are, we have yet to see any proof of it in the results from Korea. Until we do, let's keep talks of imbalance to where they are supported by results. Which is not Korea (and thus not at the very highest level) ^^
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On August 01 2012 07:33 Mackus wrote:
It's no secret than Foreign Terrans are struggling while Korean Terrans are doing fine which doesn't justify anything as "op"
It's amazing how a 2 range increase on a Unit has changed the mindset of how many players approach the TvZ game.
Ever hear of the straw that broke the camels back? I love how many people in this thread (obviously not Terran players) try to justify blatent stats of why Terran is incredibly underplayed these days. Let me guess...its not played because of the funny suits marines wear? I don't know what its going to take for some of you people to acknowlege the pink elephant in the room. Enough of my metaphors; you get the point.
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I bet that if you were to make a time series of terran win percentages since the queen change you'd have a distinguishable positive trend.
I'd be interested to see the statistics for queenchange + a few months.
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On August 02 2012 00:23 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 23:44 m0ck wrote:On August 01 2012 23:09 Shiori wrote:
I like how people blindly point to Korean Terrans doing well without considering the competition at all. Who is actually doing consistently great as a Terran against Zerg? Like, all the time against the highest level Zergs? I haven't seen anyone. MKP drops games to Idra now, Taeja has mostly been simply outclassing his opponents, etc. etc. Who exactly is crushing face as a Korean Terran on a regular basis (not some freak win once in awhile and discarding every game they lose). There is no blindly pointing to terran results, there is the simple fact that Korean terrans seemingly are doing fine in in every competition. In GSL, GSTL, MLG, WCG, WCS, OGS, TSL, IEM & IPL terrans are all well represented and are competitive in qualifiers. If you're asking who the terran is, who has the 70-80% winrate against zerg now? It's taeja. Oh, he doesn't count? Well, maybe then there aren't one. But tough titty, there were NEVER any zerg players who could put up those kind of numbers against terran. Never. Statistically, ZvT is DRGs worst match-up.. 70-80% over what, the past 2 weeks? And against whom? Looks through his TLPD. A few top tier Zergs and a lot of rather not top-tier Zergs. I'm sure there are Zerg players who've achieved that. Bear in mind that Taeja wasn't even considered relevant by most people before July. Either way, one Terran who is having recent success against Zerg doesn't prove anything, unless you wish to say that Fruitdealer's GSL run should have barred any Zerg buffs or map changes.
Yeah......no that's actually complete bullshit.
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There are fewer Terran players these days because it's become less fun to play Terran - by which I mean, playing Terran has become more like playing the other two races.
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United States97276 Posts
On August 02 2012 01:14 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 00:23 Shiori wrote:On August 01 2012 23:44 m0ck wrote:On August 01 2012 23:09 Shiori wrote:
I like how people blindly point to Korean Terrans doing well without considering the competition at all. Who is actually doing consistently great as a Terran against Zerg? Like, all the time against the highest level Zergs? I haven't seen anyone. MKP drops games to Idra now, Taeja has mostly been simply outclassing his opponents, etc. etc. Who exactly is crushing face as a Korean Terran on a regular basis (not some freak win once in awhile and discarding every game they lose). There is no blindly pointing to terran results, there is the simple fact that Korean terrans seemingly are doing fine in in every competition. In GSL, GSTL, MLG, WCG, WCS, OGS, TSL, IEM & IPL terrans are all well represented and are competitive in qualifiers. If you're asking who the terran is, who has the 70-80% winrate against zerg now? It's taeja. Oh, he doesn't count? Well, maybe then there aren't one. But tough titty, there were NEVER any zerg players who could put up those kind of numbers against terran. Never. Statistically, ZvT is DRGs worst match-up.. 70-80% over what, the past 2 weeks? And against whom? Looks through his TLPD. A few top tier Zergs and a lot of rather not top-tier Zergs. I'm sure there are Zerg players who've achieved that. Bear in mind that Taeja wasn't even considered relevant by most people before July. Either way, one Terran who is having recent success against Zerg doesn't prove anything, unless you wish to say that Fruitdealer's GSL run should have barred any Zerg buffs or map changes. Yeah......no that's actually complete bullshit.
TaeJa has been relevant for over a year. He just wasnt in the spotlight as much because he was the non Code S terran on a roster full of top tier code S terrans on Slayers. He's been top 5 ELO in korea forever since he won like 26 bo3s in a row in the Korean weekly with quite a few vs GSL players. Liquid was good for him though because it's giving him a lot more opportunities for exposure.
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haha any zerg not winning at this patch should probably jump off a bridge. Terran is the weakest race in game by far and this AGAIN proves it.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 01 2012 20:15 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 19:44 sieksdekciw wrote:On August 01 2012 18:19 Naphal wrote:
zerg and protoss on the other hand see success (and a good amount of it if you look around) without even coming close to the best players of their race, terran is undoubtly UP below the prolevel (and even there below the toptier level), and the worrysome part is, that even at the highest level we have hints of imbalance.
Yes. According to most people, balance is 50% win rate. Imagine a game where people race each other.here are only two types of cars: a slow crappy one (terran), and a nice fast one (zerg and toss). You have two racers: an 30 year racing veteran (terran) and a retarded person (the toss/zerg). You place the good guy in the crappy car, and the retarded guy in the nice car. Since the veteran knows how to drive, he just wins the race. The community is not happy about it, and to even things out, the race organizers (Blizzard) give the retarded person (the zerg/toss) an even better car, one that steers itself and has turbo engines. This time, the race is won by the retarded guy. According to statistics, we have a 50% balance. The racers are both high level (since they are the only two raceres) and they have between them 50% win rate. Everything is legit, right? But is it really fair to the race veteran that he is in the crappy car? Is it fair that a person who is 10 times more talented, 10 times more hard working, is losing to a guy who can't even start the crappy car? Not the case at all. The QQ needs to stop, everyone should just play there best and if a race is "im-balanced" make up for it in skill. That's what everyone who does well in a time of terran, zerg, or protoss dominance has to do, but the QQ will never stop.
the veteran (terran) must be pretty stupid to choose the crappy car and the "retarded" driver (toss/zerg) must be pretty clever to choose the better car.
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On August 02 2012 01:14 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 00:23 Shiori wrote:On August 01 2012 23:44 m0ck wrote:On August 01 2012 23:09 Shiori wrote:
I like how people blindly point to Korean Terrans doing well without considering the competition at all. Who is actually doing consistently great as a Terran against Zerg? Like, all the time against the highest level Zergs? I haven't seen anyone. MKP drops games to Idra now, Taeja has mostly been simply outclassing his opponents, etc. etc. Who exactly is crushing face as a Korean Terran on a regular basis (not some freak win once in awhile and discarding every game they lose). There is no blindly pointing to terran results, there is the simple fact that Korean terrans seemingly are doing fine in in every competition. In GSL, GSTL, MLG, WCG, WCS, OGS, TSL, IEM & IPL terrans are all well represented and are competitive in qualifiers. If you're asking who the terran is, who has the 70-80% winrate against zerg now? It's taeja. Oh, he doesn't count? Well, maybe then there aren't one. But tough titty, there were NEVER any zerg players who could put up those kind of numbers against terran. Never. Statistically, ZvT is DRGs worst match-up.. 70-80% over what, the past 2 weeks? And against whom? Looks through his TLPD. A few top tier Zergs and a lot of rather not top-tier Zergs. I'm sure there are Zerg players who've achieved that. Bear in mind that Taeja wasn't even considered relevant by most people before July. Either way, one Terran who is having recent success against Zerg doesn't prove anything, unless you wish to say that Fruitdealer's GSL run should have barred any Zerg buffs or map changes. Yeah......no that's actually complete bullshit.
I said most people, as in, the average spectator of Sc2. I have always loved Taeja and thought he was extremely underrated. But most people didn't give a shit about him until he started carrying TL.
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On August 02 2012 01:39 NaEjeOn88 wrote:
haha any zerg not winning at this patch should probably jump off a bridge. Terran is the weakest race in game by far and this AGAIN proves it.
Eh? How exactly is it proven when currently the korean WCG has 8 terrans, 5 protoss and 2 zergs qualified
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On August 02 2012 01:46 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 01:14 VirgilSC2 wrote:On August 02 2012 00:23 Shiori wrote:On August 01 2012 23:44 m0ck wrote:On August 01 2012 23:09 Shiori wrote:
I like how people blindly point to Korean Terrans doing well without considering the competition at all. Who is actually doing consistently great as a Terran against Zerg? Like, all the time against the highest level Zergs? I haven't seen anyone. MKP drops games to Idra now, Taeja has mostly been simply outclassing his opponents, etc. etc. Who exactly is crushing face as a Korean Terran on a regular basis (not some freak win once in awhile and discarding every game they lose). There is no blindly pointing to terran results, there is the simple fact that Korean terrans seemingly are doing fine in in every competition. In GSL, GSTL, MLG, WCG, WCS, OGS, TSL, IEM & IPL terrans are all well represented and are competitive in qualifiers. If you're asking who the terran is, who has the 70-80% winrate against zerg now? It's taeja. Oh, he doesn't count? Well, maybe then there aren't one. But tough titty, there were NEVER any zerg players who could put up those kind of numbers against terran. Never. Statistically, ZvT is DRGs worst match-up.. 70-80% over what, the past 2 weeks? And against whom? Looks through his TLPD. A few top tier Zergs and a lot of rather not top-tier Zergs. I'm sure there are Zerg players who've achieved that. Bear in mind that Taeja wasn't even considered relevant by most people before July. Either way, one Terran who is having recent success against Zerg doesn't prove anything, unless you wish to say that Fruitdealer's GSL run should have barred any Zerg buffs or map changes. Yeah......no that's actually complete bullshit. I said most people, as in, the average spectator of Sc2. I have always loved Taeja and thought he was extremely underrated. But most people didn't give a shit about him until he started carrying TL.
To be fair the only way anyone would have known he was such a beast before joining TL would have been if you watched the korean weekly or if you got a chance to catch his extremely rare stream. Korean weekly is totally worth watching for anyone that hasn't checked it out yet btw, Taeja basically made his name there.
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Can't pics like this just go into the designated balance discussion thread?
There are so many threads that are obviously just arguments and justifications for arguments about balance.
Let's keep the discussion, but shrink the size of its TL.net creep.
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On August 01 2012 23:10 Scrubwave wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 21:17 -_- wrote:On August 01 2012 21:11 n0ise wrote:On August 01 2012 21:08 Incomplet wrote:
I also feel that Ravens are the key to TvZ. Not only do they clear up creep but HSM will murder clumped infestors, corruptors and broodlords. Not to mention that every Terran is floating 1000+ gas lategame, so we know they have the resources, but rather they just haven't caught on to the metagame. 8/10 gj Anyway, nothing surprising, and these threads will keep popping - did Blizz anwser this yet? No one is expecting another patch before HoTS, but at least any acknowledgement in the forms of "ok, we fucked up, we'll fix it"? Dustin Browder actually did in an NASL interview. Paraphrasing: 'I know a lot of people might hate me for this, but the queen change is working exactly as intended... Terran's should and will learn how to use Ravens.' So DW is one of the noobcakes who think that Ravens actually stop zerg from getting 3rd easily and work wonders against broodlord/infestor? Though I think I know what "exactly as intended" means- make SC2 zerg dominated just before HoTS, that will boost the sales, right? Wonder what they will come up with before Protoss campaign.
Creep has been an complete success for Blizzard. Newcomers, Lore enthusiasts, and hardcore players all love the idea of spreading and battling creep.
Before the Queen change, creep denial was a matter of form for Terran in the early game. You simply built Hellions and parked them overnight. Now creep spread can get started early game, making it a factor in mid and late.
Regarding Ravens, when I think about how Terrans respond to the suggestion of them I can't help but think about how I used feel about the Carrier, Mothership, and Warp Prism. Now, the Warp Prism was buffed, and the Mothership was indirectly buffed (neural nerf), but back in 2010 and early 2011 I was convinced all 3 were pointless units. Now, I realize that even without the buffs they all could have been used.
Maybe the Raven needs a little tweak, but I'm confident T's will begin using it. I don't blame them for thinking they can't, though. I was in the exact same spot.
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EPT
