WCS Win Rates

On August 01 2012 07:35 MorroW wrote:
the maps in wcs were pretty favored towards terran and less to zerg (shakuras, tal darim, ohana etc) is probably a good reason why terrans has been doing this well

On August 01 2012 07:35 MorroW wrote:
the maps in wcs were pretty favored towards terran and less to zerg (shakuras, tal darim, ohana etc) is probably a good reason why terrans has been doing this well

On August 01 2012 07:35 MorroW wrote:
the maps in wcs were pretty favored towards terran and less to zerg (shakuras, tal darim, ohana etc) is probably a good reason why terrans has been doing this well

On August 01 2012 07:37 Detri wrote:
What people seem to forget is that a lot of the best players in Korea play terran, due to boxer. They would be good with any race. Could you imagine taeja microing mutas? or storms? Or gumiho's multitasking with a warp prism and ling runbys??

On August 01 2012 07:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Boring and irrelevant statistics.

A. No attempts to determine how many terrans actually participated in the tournaments, and no breakdown in how terrans dissipate through the brackets.
B. No comparison with past national tournaments in terms of race distribution.
C. The false assumption that terran had equal representation prior to the queen patch. Terran "dominance" in the first half of 2011 was strictly limited to Korea; terran has always been underrepresented in the international scene in terms of tournament placings.
D. The false assumption that every country has equal representation in both race and skill (which is the only way these numbers could be taken seriously in the first place).

The creator of the chart is a hack. He is well-known in the Reddit community for whining about terran.

On August 01 2012 07:40 MadProbe wrote:
would be less biased if you added the % of all tournament participants that were terran.

otherwise kinda cool. finally terrans know how it feels.

On August 01 2012 07:47 Jombozeus wrote:


Looks like you made all the assumptions and drew all the conclusions. At no point did he explain the statistics. The bias is actually quite hilarious.

On August 01 2012 07:53 graNite wrote:



Can you prove that there are less terrans?
Remember that most korean tournament results are gsl-made, in which the progamers prepare for a matchup, and perform snipe strategys. That is actually misleading.

On August 01 2012 07:50 CosmicSpiral wrote:


You're not very intelligent. My assumptions about his assumptions are true, since they are the only ways in which his statistics can be taken seriously. And since he is well-known for complaining about terran under-representation in tournaments (and making posts about statistics to whine about it), it's obvious what the point of his post is.

On August 01 2012 07:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Boring and irrelevant statistics.

A. No attempts to determine how many terrans actually participated in the tournaments, and no breakdown in how terrans dissipate through the brackets.
B. No comparison with past national tournaments in terms of race distribution.
C. The false assumption that terran had equal representation prior to the queen patch. Terran "dominance" in the first half of 2011 was strictly limited to Korea; terran has always been underrepresented in the international scene in terms of tournament placings.
D. The false assumption that every country has equal representation in both race and skill (which is the only way these numbers could be taken seriously in the first place).

The creator of the chart is a hack. He is well-known in the Reddit community for whining about terran.

On August 01 2012 07:40 Toppp wrote:


what does this have to do with anything?

On August 01 2012 07:58 Grapefruit wrote:


3 things.

First off, I didn't make this image.

Second, this is pure data without analysis or anything.

Third, stop being a dick for now reason, not cool.

On August 01 2012 07:58 Speake wrote:
I can't believe some of these non terran excuses. You really think that because T is slightly less represented in foreign tournaments that this will result in 45 players vs 85/86 in the top 8? That's nearly double for each other race in the top 8

On August 01 2012 08:01 Prog455 wrote:


It has something to do with the fact, that some people justifies the current state Terran as a race solely because a few top Korean Terran players are doing well. By that logic, one could however argue that the latest Zerg buffs should be reversed, given the fact that players like Stephano, DRG and Nestea was doing just fine without Queen range buff or Overlord speed buff.

It is also funny to note how next to unknown players such as Sortof and JonnyREcco all of a sudden manages to beat players such as SaSe and most notably NaNiwa. And even though ThorZaIN did beat Sortof in the last round of the finals, they practically played even, winning three games each.

On August 01 2012 08:01 CosmicSpiral wrote:


http://www.reddit.com/user/dv0rakftw

"48% of tourneys with 0 or 1 Terran and the same only for 7% Protoss and 4% Zerg is not massaging numbers.

IT'S NOTICING SOMETHING THAT IS FUCKED UP."

"The guys at Blizzard don't seem to understand it. I was done for at least a month, maybe longer, but every time I try to get out they drag me back in.

You're tired of the graphs? I'm more tired of the shitty TvZ games. You get dozens of new threads here every day. I get to look at brackets hoping Terrans get to dodge as many Zerg as possible. (I will however do tomorrow's post on Premier Tournaments as just text because Liquipedia's old results didn't have standard formatting.)

But good catch on me forgetting to mention that previous imbalance is no justification for current imbalance."

"Please skip the "more time for meta" and "things are fine in Korea" comments. We've heard it already. I also know TaeJa won at MLG and GuMiho won GSTL with an all-kill.

This isn't to say Terrans can't win. It's harder than it should be. TvZ has become less fun to watch. Even less so to play.

People who want to accuse me of cherry-picking data should also explain why Terrans are under-represented in GM on every server including Korea and why in July's TLPD stats, Terrans win less than 40% of TvZ matches on half the maps which have significant numbers. And please note I could have made it look even worse for Terran by taking out the three pre-patch events.

I will do a separate post, probably tomorrow, on Premier tournaments but I wanted to look at Top 8 in Blizzard's own worldwide tournaments.

To recap the infograph:

Almost half of WCS tournaments had one or no Terrans in the Top 8.

Almost half and just over a third of WCS tournaments had four or more Protoss and Zerg players respectively in the Top 8 while not a single one had more than three Terrans.

If there is a job available at Blizzard as Balance Statistician I am available. Please consider this and previous posts like this as my resume demonstrating my ability to count."

Pure data without analysis, right? Unbiased gathering of data right?

On August 01 2012 08:05 Grapefruit wrote:


Jesus fucking Christ, are you insane or something?

What the actual fuck? Stop lashing out so hard. I am NOT this person, neither did I post ANY of his opinions. All I did was post this image, which is simply a collection of data.

Why does this bother you that much?!

On August 01 2012 08:03 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:
These statistics obviously prove nothing just like last 20 tournaments there was 1 terran in finals it proves NOTHING.

Foreigner terrans are obviously awful players (all of them) which is main reason why they cant win, besides that terran is underpresented (wonder why) which is again reason why terran never wins - not enough terran players. If foreigners stoped whining and started practicing maybe they would win something, just look in Korea everything is fine, so many terrans still dominating and I will go as far to name all of them: Taeja.

MMA, MVP, MKP are obviously whiners that got no clue about the game saying that terran is worst race and I know what they need to do, they need to make RAVENS and start making new builds, I feel like they arent innovative enough.. But yeah with all the recent terran domination (Taeja winning 1 tournament) game is fine and people need to make more ravens, because one raven will deny ALL creep spread, kill 6 queens on its own and destroy zerg economy. Raven - weapon of future.

Also 4 months of tournament results is too low sample size to prove anything.

TLDR: 1)foreigner terrans are awful
2)make ravens.

On August 01 2012 08:10 monkybone wrote:


It is the nature of GSL to lag a bit behind the overall representation due to seeds.

On August 01 2012 08:09 pmp10 wrote:
Let's just wait until the monthly win-rates.
They will at least provide a bit more of validity to complains and provide counter-points.

On August 01 2012 08:14 monkybone wrote:


People who don't get seeded into code S, get seeded into code A which is a qualifier for code S. Hence you can't just look at the top 8. There's stort of a downward seed system which makes GSL lag behind in representation. In fact, who got into code A this season? I can name you a few top Terrans... It has already started, and I'm pretty sure the representation will stabilize in favor of Zerg given enough time.

On August 01 2012 08:01 Antares_ wrote:


A) WCS is an open tournament. It means that low number of Terrans = they couldn't even qualify for the national level.
B) There was no national tournaments in the past, except for Sweden Championship at last Dreamhack.
C) There was underrepresented, but still, those few had much higher win right than now. That's why we use percentage, not pure numbers.
D) Every country has at least 3-4 good Terrans. There has to be a reason why guys like Tarson, DieStar, ClouD, Goody, KawaiiRice, TriMaster or BratOK didn't go through their national levels.

Statistic is a statistic, it couldn't be taken as a the only determinant, but has to be considered. And when it comes to statistics, it doesn't matter who did them as long as the data isn't fake.

On August 01 2012 08:03 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:
These statistics obviously prove nothing just like last 20 tournaments there was 1 terran in finals it proves NOTHING.

Foreigner terrans are obviously awful players (all of them) which is main reason why they cant win, besides that terran is underpresented (wonder why) which is again reason why terran never wins - not enough terran players. If foreigners stoped whining and started practicing maybe they would win something, just look in Korea everything is fine, so many terrans still dominating and I will go as far to name all of them: Taeja.

MMA, MVP, MKP are obviously whiners that got no clue about the game saying that terran is worst race and I know what they need to do, they need to make RAVENS and start making new builds, I feel like they arent innovative enough.. But yeah with all the recent terran domination (Taeja winning 1 tournament) game is fine and people need to make more ravens, because one raven will deny ALL creep spread, kill 6 queens on its own and destroy zerg economy. Raven - weapon of future.

Also 4 months of tournament results is too low sample size to prove anything.

TLDR: 1)foreigner terrans are awful
2)make ravens.

On August 01 2012 08:12 Tantaburs wrote:


monthly win rates are ~ 43.5-56.5 in the zergs favour they put out an unoffical preview

On August 01 2012 08:05 JJH777 wrote:


It's not just a few good Terrans. Tons of Terrans in Korea are still doing fine. Nestea/DRG weren't doing fine without the queen buff they both got eliminated in the first round of the GSL pre-queen buff. In fact the season immediately before the queen buff was the worst zerg GSL season ever as far as zerg placements. I'm pretty sure that the dreamhack that Naniwa lost to 2 random zergs was before the queen buff. Plenty of other Protoss are beating good zergs.

Even this GSL season zerg didn't dominate the way they would have if they were truly imbalanced. Also there are only 2 zergs in top 16 of OSL and they are Nestea/DRG and it doesn't look like anymore will get through. Zergs also didn't do particularly good at WCS Korea with both Nestea and Symbol losing in the qualifiers.

On August 01 2012 08:00 monkybone wrote:


As you probably will understand, it would only make sense that Terran is underrepresented if Terran was underpowered. So it doesn't explain anything if there were much fewer Terran participants. This can be a direct consequence of imbalance. The issue is that Terran is underrepresented.

There's no reason whatsoever that Terrans would suddenly become scarce after the patch due to anything but being weaker than the other races, in fact.

On August 01 2012 08:19 Prog455 wrote:


1. It is true that DRG did not make it past RO34 at GSL 2012 Season 2. However. You should note that he WON the previous GSL season. In addition to this, he placed second at MLG Winter Championship just four days before he lost in RO34.
2. It is true that Nestea did not live up to his usual standards at GSL 2012 Season 2, but i think it is safe to say that Nestea has been doing just fine without Zerg buffs even though every other Zerg was struggling, at almost any given time
3. NaNiwa lost to JonnyREcco and Sortof during WCS and TSL4, both of which happened this weekend

On August 01 2012 08:03 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:
These statistics obviously prove nothing just like last 20 tournaments there was 1 terran in finals it proves NOTHING.

Foreigner terrans are obviously awful players (all of them) which is main reason why they cant win, besides that terran is underpresented (wonder why) which is again reason why terran never wins - not enough terran players. If foreigners stoped whining and started practicing maybe they would win something, just look in Korea everything is fine, so many terrans still dominating and I will go as far to name all of them: Taeja.

MMA, MVP, MKP are obviously whiners that got no clue about the game saying that terran is worst race and I know what they need to do, they need to make RAVENS and start making new builds, I feel like they arent innovative enough.. But yeah with all the recent terran domination (Taeja winning 1 tournament) game is fine and people need to make more ravens, because one raven will deny ALL creep spread, kill 6 queens on its own and destroy zerg economy. Raven - weapon of future.

Also 4 months of tournament results is too low sample size to prove anything.

TLDR: 1)foreigner terrans are awful
2)make ravens.

On August 01 2012 08:23 monkybone wrote:


The matter of fact is that none of these explanations fit the situation, the underrepresentation was quite sudden.

On August 01 2012 08:24 CosmicSpiral wrote:


And no evidence was shown to prove this, or that terran is less underrepresented in the foreign scene than pre-patch. And then we must ask: underrepresented in what sense? Less tournament placings? Less tournament participation? Shorter tournament runs? Lower winrates in all matchups? Lower winrates in one matchup?

On August 01 2012 07:53 graNite wrote:


Can you prove that there are less terrans?
Remember that most korean tournament results are gsl-made, in which the progamers prepare for a matchup, and perform snipe strategys. That is actually misleading.

On August 01 2012 08:22 JJH777 wrote:


He won while being the only zerg in top 8 and one of 2 in the ro16. I also think it's obvious that Genius choked horribly in that finals. One player doing well doesn't mean a balanced game. DRG is the only player who has got a top 4 with zerg this year. Terran has had like 5 different people in the top 4 of GSL this year.
Nestea has done fine without Zerg buffs but once again 1 or 2 players doing fine doesn't mean a race is balanced.
I'm not referring to those losses I am just pointing out that Naniwa losing to random zergs isn't something new.

On August 01 2012 08:28 Prog455 wrote:


That is exactly my point. One player doing well does not prove anything. Just like TaeJa's win at MLG does not prove that Terran is fine.

On August 01 2012 08:31 Aquila- wrote:
"game is balanced at the highest level, look at koreans"
"these statistics don't say anything and can't be trusted"

BULLSHIT

Terran is so severly underpowered right now and everyone knows it. How many evidences do you want just admit it...

On August 01 2012 08:28 monkybone wrote:


Obviously, fewer Terrans than Protoss and Zergs in all the stages of almost every recent tournament.

On August 01 2012 08:27 BronzeKnee wrote:


This argument is in fact simple to solve if we are able to prove that despite being underrepresented, Terrans are outperforming their representating in the WCS, and this I believe would be easy to show, and is something I started to show on the first page.

On August 01 2012 07:47 FliedLice wrote:
The Queen buff really fucked Germany up, look at all those Protoss players!

On August 01 2012 08:36 CosmicSpiral wrote:


Hmmm I must have skipped that post.

On August 01 2012 08:05 Grapefruit wrote:


Jesus fucking Christ, are you insane or something?

What the actual fuck? Stop lashing out so hard. I am NOT this person, neither did I post ANY of his opinions. All I did was post this image, which is simply a collection of data.

Why does this bother you that much?!

On August 01 2012 08:45 iAmJeffReY wrote:
Not that surprising of a graph. Lot of protoss and zerg doing well lately.

On August 01 2012 08:40 arew wrote:
Well, no offense, but I'd say most of Terrans (at least in PvT) only knows how to stim and make vikings against colossi without a single micro. I don't think there is any big balance issues atm, not going to argue tho.

On August 01 2012 08:40 BronzeKnee wrote:


I've edited it a couple of times. One key edit is that 24% of the players in the WCS European qualifiers were Terran, yet 25% of the players who made the finals were Terran.

On August 01 2012 08:40 arew wrote:
Well, no offense, but I'd say most of Terrans (at least in PvT) only knows how to stim and make vikings against colossi without a single micro. I don't think there is any big balance issues atm, not going to argue tho.

On August 01 2012 08:40 arew wrote:
Well, no offense, but I'd say most of Terrans (at least in PvT) only knows how to stim and make vikings against colossi without a single micro. I don't think there is any big balance issues atm, not going to argue tho.

On August 01 2012 08:49 Kaitokid wrote:


less Terrans=more players from the other 2 races doing well. however as someone already pointed out the Terrans who did attend WCS did well in general... Terrans did better than P/Z players considering their little number, but I guess almost everyone here tries as hard as he can to ignore that.

On August 01 2012 09:06 FinalForm wrote:
Already telling me what we already know. Unless you're a total baller (mkp,taeja,hack,keen, or on NHS), then ur going to get facerolled by zerg and protoss quite often.

Also very rare to fund such thing as an "up-and-coming" terran.

On August 01 2012 08:56 Grapefruit wrote:


Oh boy, this is tough...

You know, you're telling people to not be biased but on the other hand you completely disregard that the WCS wasn't an invitational tourney, so the low amount of Terrans might(!!!) already be an indicator that Terran is under-performing and on top of that you chose to use the percentages of the finals instead of the winners, because if you did that your argument would be invalidated as only 22% of the winners are Terrans.

On August 01 2012 09:10 Deckkie wrote:


You could also wonder why there are more P and Z players qualifying.
We know that Terran is the least played race in the west, and that this is even worse in the higher levels.
But with the amount of players playing, statisicly, there should be a equal representation on the tournament, relative to the ladder.
This however does not seem to be the case.




MouzMarine is a 14/15 year old up and coming Terran

On August 01 2012 09:06 FinalForm wrote:
Already telling me what we already know. Unless you're a total baller (mkp,taeja,hack,keen, or on NHS), then ur going to get facerolled by zerg and protoss quite often.

Also very rare to fund such thing as an "up-and-coming" terran.

On August 01 2012 09:16 forsooth wrote:

Patches happen, Terran representation in foreign tourneys gets even worse, but don't worry guys it's still totally fine because like 4 guys in Korea are still doing okay.

On August 01 2012 09:10 Deckkie wrote:


You could also wonder why there are more P and Z players qualifying.
We know that Terran is the least played race in the west, and that this is even worse in the higher levels.
But with the amount of players playing, statisicly, there should be a equal representation on the tournament, relative to the ladder.
This however does not seem to be the case.




MouzMarine is a 14/15 year old up and coming Terran

On August 01 2012 08:03 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:
These statistics obviously prove nothing just like last 20 tournaments there was 1 terran in finals it proves NOTHING.

Foreigner terrans are obviously awful players (all of them) which is main reason why they cant win, besides that terran is underpresented (wonder why) which is again reason why terran never wins - not enough terran players. If foreigners stoped whining and started practicing maybe they would win something, just look in Korea everything is fine, so many terrans still dominating and I will go as far to name all of them: Taeja.

MMA, MVP, MKP are obviously whiners that got no clue about the game saying that terran is worst race and I know what they need to do, they need to make RAVENS and start making new builds, I feel like they arent innovative enough.. But yeah with all the recent terran domination (Taeja winning 1 tournament) game is fine and people need to make more ravens, because one raven will deny ALL creep spread, kill 6 queens on its own and destroy zerg economy. Raven - weapon of future.

Also 4 months of tournament results is too low sample size to prove anything.

TLDR: 1)foreigner terrans are awful
2)make ravens.

On August 01 2012 09:10 Deckkie wrote:


You could also wonder why there are more P and Z players qualifying.
We know that Terran is the least played race in the west, and that this is even worse in the higher levels.
But with the amount of players playing, statisicly, there should be a equal representation on the tournament, relative to the ladder.
This however does not seem to be the case.




MouzMarine is a 14/15 year old up and coming Terran

On August 01 2012 07:35 MorroW wrote:
the maps in wcs were pretty favored towards terran and less to zerg (shakuras, tal darim, ohana etc) is probably a good reason why terrans has been doing this well

On August 01 2012 09:31 Natespank wrote:
Still, I'd accept that just fine as long as the units weren't so damn boring in this game... HotS could be huge for sc2.

On August 01 2012 09:50 Incomplet wrote:
Taeja destroying Genius and Coca just now on IPL. Sorry if Taeja can beat top notch Koreans, other Terrans can. They need to watch, learn and adapt.

Or in MVP's case, recover from his injury.

On August 01 2012 09:45 magnaflow wrote:
Everyone saying "of course terran is doing poorly, they are very under represented"

Maybe we should be asking why there are so few terrans

On August 01 2012 09:19 marcesr wrote:
Fiewer Terrans should mean a higher win ratio of Terrans because the top 1 or 2 Terrans of each country are playing against Zergs and Protosses who are between number 1 and 10 in the same country.

Kinda funny how many people still put effort into arguing that Terran is not totally underpowered especially below the Korean Code S level. Almost more whine about the whine than whine itself.

Its a fact and everyone should accept it - Terran is harder to play and thus has a very hard time outside of Korea.
Blizzard will not buff Terran because then Korean Terrans would own too hard again.

On August 01 2012 09:45 magnaflow wrote:
Everyone saying "of course terran is doing poorly, they are very under represented"

Maybe we should be asking why there are so few terrans

On August 01 2012 09:58 Phobbers wrote:

Saying because X player can do it is one of THE worst arguments one can make. Almost as bad as saying since X player beat Y player, and since Y player beat Z player, that means X player > Z player. Not every Terran can be Taeja.

On August 01 2012 09:28 avilo wrote:


This is the best post of the thread.

On August 01 2012 10:02 Incomplet wrote:


The pros play 8+ hours a day. If the Terran pros cant find the time to study Taeja, break down his strategies and possibly integrate it into their own style, then id say they are mucking around too much rather than doing their job. If one person can succeed then so can others, this is the way it is with anything in life.

On August 01 2012 09:50 Dexington wrote:
WCS Nordic helped to prove that Terran isn't actually weak, they just need better foreign representation.

Naama and Thorzain help in that department.

On August 01 2012 10:08 EleanorRIgby wrote:


try telling that to zergs when fruitdealer won

On August 01 2012 09:58 Phobbers wrote:

Saying because X player can do it is one of THE worst arguments one can make. Almost as bad as saying since X player beat Y player, and since Y player beat Z player, that means X player > Z player. Not every Terran can be Taeja.

On August 01 2012 10:17 rd wrote:


And not every Terran plays the caliber of Korean players Taeja does, i.e. most of WCS.

On August 01 2012 10:22 Detri wrote:



korean terrans win becase they are better than they people they are playing. Just like a GM player will most likely beat a mid masters player. Doesn't matter about balance when the player is stronger. At identical skill levels terran is weaker... you couldn't infer that on your own?

On August 01 2012 10:27 Incomplet wrote:


Thats the thing...not being able to play at the caliber of Taeja is NOT an excuse. Its the Pro's job to train hard to become equivalent if not better. Similarly there is a good reason why Koreans consistently out-perform foreigners in every single tournament. Koreans aren't born better at SC2, their genetics dont make them better at SC2, its simply their training regiment and work ethic.

Its this kind of attitude why foreigners have already lost before the game even begins. Saying things like "not everyone can be like Taeja". Taeja is human just like everyone else, and if he can do it then anyone can despite their skin color. All you need is the will and determination to do so and the results will come.

On August 01 2012 08:03 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:
These statistics obviously prove nothing just like last 20 tournaments there was 1 terran in finals it proves NOTHING.

Foreigner terrans are obviously awful players (all of them) which is main reason why they cant win, besides that terran is underpresented (wonder why) which is again reason why terran never wins - not enough terran players. If foreigners stoped whining and started practicing maybe they would win something, just look in Korea everything is fine, so many terrans still dominating and I will go as far to name all of them: Taeja.

MMA, MVP, MKP are obviously whiners that got no clue about the game saying that terran is worst race and I know what they need to do, they need to make RAVENS and start making new builds, I feel like they arent innovative enough.. But yeah with all the recent terran domination (Taeja winning 1 tournament) game is fine and people need to make more ravens, because one raven will deny ALL creep spread, kill 6 queens on its own and destroy zerg economy. Raven - weapon of future.

Also 4 months of tournament results is too low sample size to prove anything.

TLDR: 1)foreigner terrans are awful
2)make ravens.

On August 01 2012 10:08 EleanorRIgby wrote:


try telling that to zergs when fruitdealer won

On August 01 2012 10:10 Ewic wrote:


I second this. Well played, Beasty.

On August 01 2012 08:03 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:
These statistics obviously prove nothing just like last 20 tournaments there was 1 terran in finals it proves NOTHING.

Foreigner terrans are obviously awful players (all of them) which is main reason why they cant win, besides that terran is underpresented (wonder why) which is again reason why terran never wins - not enough terran players. If foreigners stoped whining and started practicing maybe they would win something, just look in Korea everything is fine, so many terrans still dominating and I will go as far to name all of them: Taeja.

MMA, MVP, MKP are obviously whiners that got no clue about the game saying that terran is worst race and I know what they need to do, they need to make RAVENS and start making new builds, I feel like they arent innovative enough.. But yeah with all the recent terran domination (Taeja winning 1 tournament) game is fine and people need to make more ravens, because one raven will deny ALL creep spread, kill 6 queens on its own and destroy zerg economy. Raven - weapon of future.

Also 4 months of tournament results is too low sample size to prove anything.

TLDR: 1)foreigner terrans are awful
2)make ravens.

On August 01 2012 13:12 rckY wrote:
Sorry for referring to page 2/3, but calling johnnyrecco and SortOf random zergs is just plain bullsh*t and shows you have no idea what's been going on in the last 2 months in the EU sc2 scene.

On August 01 2012 07:31 Chernobyl wrote:
I still lose to terrans.

On August 01 2012 14:07 spbelky wrote:


By past two months do you mean since the queen patch? And by "what's going on" do you mean Kas & Beastyqt being the only two Terrans who haven't fallen off the map, and the huge surge in P and Z players? Ya, I'll count djrecco and sortof as part of the P & Z crowd that are surging because non KR Terrans have been getting roflstomped. I'll also count them as part of the crowd that may or may not fade away once Terran is on equal footing (or HotS).

So... ya they are kind of random zergs... but we'll have to wait and see won't we.

On August 01 2012 14:10 System42 wrote:

Everyone loses to terran. its not like Terran never win against zerg or protoss its just when they do lose because they played bad or stupid they complain about balance. the only difference between top terrans and them is that they know how to play terran

On August 01 2012 14:19 Pato wrote:
cool, i just need to travel to slayers house and train all day to stand a chance! (Y)

On August 01 2012 14:33 Jermstuddog wrote:
So long as perfectly micro'd marines are the biggest strength of Terran and nothing similar exists for the other two races, the game will be broken at either the top level (GSL), or everywhere else.

I don't disagree that Terrans are taking a beating world-wide, but the important thing to note is that in the GSL, Terrans have effectively recovered. Some might argue that this is just because they are ahead in the metagame, but I doubt it.

Terran is the race with the highest skill ceiling due to the infinite micro that can be applied to stimmed marines and constant pressure they can apply with drops. These two functions combine to turn Terran into the only race that can ALWAYS outplay their opponent and turn an otherwise lost game into a win (what we are currently seeing happen in the GSL).

Everywhere else, Terrans will continue to perform with mediocre results. If you truly want global win rates for Terran to recover, tell Blizzard to nerf the Marine and buff elsewhere. This is the move they should have made 2 years ago, and now (non-korean) Terrans are suffering for it.

On August 01 2012 15:48 koppik wrote:
An 18.5% winrate? Wow. Well, it's nice to see the breakdown for the WCS.

On August 01 2012 08:03 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:
These statistics obviously prove nothing just like last 20 tournaments there was 1 terran in finals it proves NOTHING.

Foreigner terrans are obviously awful players (all of them) which is main reason why they cant win, besides that terran is underpresented (wonder why) which is again reason why terran never wins - not enough terran players. If foreigners stoped whining and started practicing maybe they would win something, just look in Korea everything is fine, so many terrans still dominating and I will go as far to name all of them: Taeja.

MMA, MVP, MKP are obviously whiners that got no clue about the game saying that terran is worst race and I know what they need to do, they need to make RAVENS and start making new builds, I feel like they arent innovative enough.. But yeah with all the recent terran domination (Taeja winning 1 tournament) game is fine and people need to make more ravens, because one raven will deny ALL creep spread, kill 6 queens on its own and destroy zerg economy. Raven - weapon of future.

Also 4 months of tournament results is too low sample size to prove anything.

TLDR: 1)foreigner terrans are awful
2)make ravens.

On August 01 2012 15:48 koppik wrote:
An 18.5% winrate? Wow. Well, it's nice to see the breakdown for the WCS.

On August 01 2012 16:08 sieksdekciw wrote:

Hold your horses. Stop putting an imba label on everything.

Here are the facts:

1. All zergs and protosses overnight became super good, terrans forgot how to play at roughly the same time. This time may or may not coincide with patches

2. Zergs and Tosses now comprise 35% and 35% of the population accordingly. Terran is roughly 22%. This ratio is kept up to bronze, where terran dominates. There are roughly 40% less terrans than tosses or zerg on every league but bronze, which might be tied with the misterious disappearance of terran from the ladder. See:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319705

3. Terran win rates vs zerg in the pro level were for a moment close to 20%. According to me, this is only a slight fluctuation, the likes of which we have never seen in sc2 history..

4. Terran metagame has been stale since beta, while zerg and toss have innovated so much, like not sending banes on attack move and refraining from making stalkers only in every matchup. Also, discovering the infestor after 1.5 years of muta play was a nice find.

5. Foreign terran players are just bad. They don't understand that in order to play terran on a pro level, you have to have at least 3 times better mechanics than your opponent, and since most of them have only 2.5 times better mechanics than their opponents, foreign terrans are in a huge slump.

6. 4 months in which no big tournament was won by terran are not big enough a sample size. Blizzard used to nerf terran every two weeks, but now they have learned their lesson, so they are going to wait 2 more months before nerfing them again. People should understand that nerfs to terran are not tied to statistical result. As a matter of fact, whatever happens in the meantime, terran will be nerfed every patch because of David Kim's phobia of guns.

7. Since obviously ravens are the answer, the future, and therefore op, next patch will be nerfing them.


TLDR:A huge community of terran players complaining about zerg and toss being imbalanced. Statistics don't matter, despite terrans having 50% less representation in ladder and in tournaments and appalling win rate. Nerf to raven is coming. Terrans are just bad and not innovative.

On August 01 2012 16:02 hunts wrote:
You people do realize that BW had 0 balance changes for what 10 years or so? And race win rates still fluctuated, because of meta game shifts, player skill, and pure luck. I think Idra said it best a while ago, though people disagreed with him (obviously Idra isn't allowed to be right.) You can't just look at statistics, you have to look at the actual games. Are certain players just better than others and skewing statistics? Are certain players getting lucky brackets and playing weak opponents? Are certain players just purely getting lucky and beating opponents they shouldn't? You can't just look at some numbers and go "well race X is winning too much and race Y is winning too little" without truly analyzing the statistics by how many of each race were actually at the tournament, rating each players skill, seeing how many of race X lost to a higher skill player or how many of race Y got lucky and played vs bad players etc... WCS statistics are especially bad to look at without specifying the skill level of the players because there are A LOT of semi-pro and unknown players in the WCS who don't play at the top level, and a lot of games that matched people of drastically different skill levels.

On August 01 2012 16:18 FuzzyJAM wrote:
See, Zerg and Protoss whine was never this sophisticated. This is yet more proof that Terran domination was simply because we're more intelligent. Sadly, even our superior intellect isn't helping us when we're given a rubber knife to fight against assault shotguns.

:[

On August 01 2012 08:03 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:
These statistics obviously prove nothing just like last 20 tournaments there was 1 terran in finals it proves NOTHING.

Foreigner terrans are obviously awful players (all of them) which is main reason why they cant win, besides that terran is underpresented (wonder why) which is again reason why terran never wins - not enough terran players. If foreigners stoped whining and started practicing maybe they would win something, just look in Korea everything is fine, so many terrans still dominating and I will go as far to name all of them: Taeja.

MMA, MVP, MKP are obviously whiners that got no clue about the game saying that terran is worst race and I know what they need to do, they need to make RAVENS and start making new builds, I feel like they arent innovative enough.. But yeah with all the recent terran domination (Taeja winning 1 tournament) game is fine and people need to make more ravens, because one raven will deny ALL creep spread, kill 6 queens on its own and destroy zerg economy. Raven - weapon of future.

Also 4 months of tournament results is too low sample size to prove anything.

TLDR: 1)foreigner terrans are awful
2)make ravens.

On August 01 2012 16:23 Noocta wrote:


Great, now I'm seeing TaeJa as Rambo with his knife between his teeth in a jungle infested by protoss and zerg. :<

On August 01 2012 16:25 Scila wrote:


Yeah man, those pesky Terrans are so lazy and refuse to use the Raven! HSM is so freaking good its like twice as good as fungal, Terrans just want to use tier 1 all game and win.

On August 01 2012 07:31 MCXD wrote:
This is actually misleading, because terran is very underrepresented in america and europe (esp at high levels). Regardless of balance, it's expected statistically that there would be less terrans. For that reason alone, the statistics here can't be trusted to make the point that terran is underpowered.

Furthermore, if you look at korean matchup statistics recently, everything is actually pretty close to 50%.

On August 01 2012 07:31 MCXD wrote:
For that reason alone, the statistics here can't be trusted to make the point that terran is underpowered.

On August 01 2012 15:51 DerFreemind wrote:
Here is a annother funny chart, it shows all Tournaments after the Siegequeen-Buff.

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/4706/sandiegostan.png


But Dustin B. said, he looked at the stats....zerg is fine

On August 01 2012 16:42 TypeDBS wrote:
i have made more money by systematically betting against terrans than those have won in prizemoney in the same time. (until teaja won mlg).

On August 01 2012 16:56 m0ck wrote:
The question seems to be:

Do we balance for Korean or foreign terrans?

On August 01 2012 17:02 Tachion wrote:

Everyone already knows the answer to this question even if they don't like the answer.

You always balance for the highest level.

On August 01 2012 17:03 Satiinifi wrote:


thats why blizzard nerfs reapers for 2v2 and 4v4 ;D

On August 01 2012 17:03 Satiinifi wrote:


thats why blizzard nerfs reapers for 2v2 and 4v4 ;D

On August 01 2012 17:26 nimp4344 wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but havn't the only major tournaments that have been won by a foreign terran been won by the same player, Thorzain. The gap between a foreign terran winning a major tournament was from TSL 3 until recently when Thorzain won Dreamhack. So I don't quite understand how this is a surprise. Foreigner Terrans have had little to no dominance in sc2 and when the only major tournaments are won by the same player with a dry spot of over a year, why would someone expect a foreign pro who wants to actually win tournaments to play terran, hence them being underrepresented (unless they want to move to korea and train there).

On August 01 2012 17:34 Noocta wrote:


Not all players go by the rule " I want to play the race that win the more. ", so it don't really explain why we have litteraly ZERO Up & Coming Terran players in the foreigner scene. :/

I mean.. there has to be some players who we don't know about who are good terrans, right ? ...

On August 01 2012 16:18 FuzzyJAM wrote:
See, Zerg and Protoss whine was never this sophisticated. This is yet more proof that Terran domination was simply because we're more intelligent. Sadly, even our superior intellect isn't helping us when we're given a rubber knife to fight against assault shotguns.

:[

User was warned for this post

On August 01 2012 18:03 ABear wrote:
You could maybe make a case that the game isn't balanced in the semi-pro/foreign scene, but it would be difficult to make a case that Terran is unfairly bad at the highest levels when Taeja is dominating everyone in astounding fashion right now. I also think that we will see a trend of top korean pro terrans continuing to do better as long as Taeja's dominance continues.

On August 01 2012 10:27 Incomplet wrote:


Thats the thing...not being able to play at the caliber of Taeja is NOT an excuse. Its the Pro's job to train hard to become equivalent if not better. Similarly there is a good reason why Koreans consistently out-perform foreigners in every single tournament. Koreans aren't born better at SC2, their genetics dont make them better at SC2, its simply their training regiment and work ethic.

Its this kind of attitude why foreigners have already lost before the game even begins. Saying things like "not everyone can be like Taeja". Taeja is human just like everyone else, and if he can do it then anyone can despite their skin color. All you need is the will and determination to do so and the results will come.

On August 01 2012 18:03 FuzzyJAM wrote:

Didn't know TL mods were Romanian.

On August 01 2012 18:19 Naphal wrote:
zerg and protoss on the other hand see success (and a good amount of it if you look around) without even coming close to the best players of their race, terran is undoubtly UP below the prolevel (and even there below the toptier level), and the worrysome part is, that even at the highest level we have hints of imbalance.