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On August 01 2012 20:28 megid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 20:24 Wayne123 wrote:
I don´t think there´s any imbalance at SC2 at all and there will never be any imbalance. I don´t think that statistics about tournament winners and the past few months/years matter at all.
The game can never be imbalanced for one simple reason:
You can choose the race you want to play. If you think that your race is underpowered, just play the race which is, in your opinion, more powerful.(If you are intrested in winning.) Even if Barracks would costs 1000 Minerals and T could never win a game unless the enemy Z/P is AFK, there would be no imbalance because you choose to play Terran. You can easly pick Z/P and try to win these races. There´s no one forcing players to pick a certain race. So if there is no imbalance ever, Blizzard can fire all their balance team i think. I don't agree, every game has imperfections for competition, it's pretty normal to a software who involve this type of thing.
That compensates for poor game design. The way balance should be is that all the races have an equal chance to win. If there is one build that beats everything, we may as well not play this game.
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Never Gonna Stop Terran It Up
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@Megid:
You misunderstood me. I meant that, even if one race is overpowered(so powerful that it´s unbeatable by other races) it wouldn´t matter at all. The game is still balanced because you can choose the overpowered race as well. No one stops you from doing so. If something is really overpowered, you can do the same thing in the game if you want to.
It would only imbalanced, if for some reason, you can´t pick the overpowered race and your opponent can. And that´s obviously not the case.
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France12750 Posts
Why do you post this?
Everyone knows that terran was the hardest race and kinda weak before the patch.
Every foreign terran got smashed and a ton of P/Z came into the light whereas only one or two unknown terrans did the same (Illusion comes to mind), even koreans terrans were struggling.
Now it's even more disastrous but it doesn't look like Blizzard will do something, especially since HOTS is coming soon (lol).
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On August 01 2012 20:53 Poopi wrote:
Why do you post this?
Everyone knows that terran was the hardest race and kinda weak before the patch.
Every foreign terran got smashed and a ton of P/Z came into the light whereas only one or two unknown terrans did the same (Illusion comes to mind), even koreans terrans were struggling.
Now it's even more disastrous but it doesn't look like Blizzard will do something, especially since HOTS is coming soon (lol).
Where are Korean terrans struggling? GSL? MLG? GSTL? WCG? WCS? TSL? OSL? IEM? IPL? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no & no
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I think they should make 2 versions of sc2. A korean version, and a non korean version.
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On August 01 2012 07:32 BronzeKnee wrote:
Let me calculate how many Terrans there were...
There were no random players from any of the South American countries. 18 or 72 (25%) were Terran meaning 54 (75%) were Protoss or Zerg.
There were no random players from any of the North American countries. 36 of 128 (28%) were Terran meaning 92 (72%) were Protoss or Zerg.
There were no random players from any of the European countries. 47 of 200 (24%) were Terran meaning 153 (76%) were Protoss or Zerg.
In total 25% of the players from these qualifiers were Terran, meaning 75% were from another race (Protoss or Zerg). There were no random players.
Forget skill, fact is, after calculating these statistics I actually believe Terran is doing better than the other races statistically, and is outperforming their sample size!
Take a look at France. Of 16 players, 2 were Terrans (12.5%) and yet we had a Terran taking 2nd place. In Sweden we had 3 Terrans out of 16 players, and a Terran won the tournament. In Norway we had 3 Terrans out of 16 players and a Terran came in 2nd. In Poland we have 1 Terran player out of 8 players, and he came in third. In addition Terrans won in Finland (had 5 out of 16), Spain (had 5 out of 16), and came in second in Italy (had 3 out of 8) and Russia (had 4 out of 16). In Ukraine they took 3rd and 4th with 3 of 8 being Terran players.
In general, Terrans did well with podium finishes in countries they were well represented in. In countries they were poorly represented they did not fair so well, but had some strong finishes as I pointed out (Sweden, Norway and Poland). There was simply a lack of Terrans in general. For instance, the Belgium qualifier had no Terrans at all in it (4 Protoss, 4 Zerg), yet somehow it becomes more evidence of how Terrans are failing to make the finals? Combined Europe had just 1 Terran player of 16 players.
Finally, 24% of the players were Terran in Europe, yet 8 made the finals out of 32 total. 8 divided by 32 is .25, meaning that 25% of the players in the finals are Terran. Thus 24% of the players in the qualifiers were Terran, while 25% in the finals are Terran. Terran obviously did fine in the qualifiers.
The South American finals were a different story (only 2 of 16 were Terran, while 25% of the players in the qualifiers were Terran), but a Terran took the silver there anyway (and it ends up being 1 Terran, 1 Zerg and 1 Protoss coming out of SA for the World Championship when only 25% of players were Terran in the first place!).
So yes, Terran came in underrepresented, but they are actually performing quite well and taking more than their fair share of spots based on the statistics!
Anyone can cherry pick facts all they want, but anyone who takes the time to look at them can see what is misleading.
I feel like this should be added to OP to prevent posters from repeating themselves.
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On August 01 2012 20:47 Wayne123 wrote:
@Megid:
You misunderstood me. I meant that, even if one race is overpowered(so powerful that it´s unbeatable by other races) it wouldn´t matter at all. The game is still balanced because you can choose the overpowered race as well. No one stops you from doing so. If something is really overpowered, you can do the same thing in the game if you want to.
It would only imbalanced, if for some reason, you can´t pick the overpowered race and your opponent can. And that´s obviously not the case.
That is not balance. Balance in any meaningful sense comes from each race having equal opportunity to win. Otherwise Blizzard should have just made one race. You can keep alleging that regardless of races being overpowered, the game is still balanced, but that is not a definition that anyone else would use.
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I also feel that Ravens are the key to TvZ. Not only do they clear up creep but HSM will murder clumped infestors, corruptors and broodlords. Not to mention that every Terran is floating 1000+ gas lategame, so we know they have the resources, but rather they just haven't caught on to the metagame.
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On August 01 2012 21:08 Incomplet wrote:
I also feel that Ravens are the key to TvZ. Not only do they clear up creep but HSM will murder clumped infestors, corruptors and broodlords. Not to mention that every Terran is floating 1000+ gas lategame, so we know they have the resources, but rather they just haven't caught on to the metagame.
8/10 gj
Anyway, nothing surprising, and these threads will keep popping - did Blizz anwser this yet? No one is expecting another patch before HoTS, but at least any acknowledgement in the forms of "ok, we fucked up, we'll fix it"?
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On August 01 2012 21:11 n0ise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 21:08 Incomplet wrote:
I also feel that Ravens are the key to TvZ. Not only do they clear up creep but HSM will murder clumped infestors, corruptors and broodlords. Not to mention that every Terran is floating 1000+ gas lategame, so we know they have the resources, but rather they just haven't caught on to the metagame. 8/10 gj Anyway, nothing surprising, and these threads will keep popping - did Blizz anwser this yet? No one is expecting another patch before HoTS, but at least any acknowledgement in the forms of "ok, we fucked up, we'll fix it"?
Dustin Browder actually did in an NASL interview. Paraphrasing: 'I know a lot of people might hate me for this, but the queen change is working exactly as intended... Terran's should and will learn how to use Ravens.'
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On August 01 2012 07:35 MorroW wrote:
the maps in wcs were pretty favored towards terran and less to zerg (shakuras, tal darim, ohana etc) is probably a good reason why terrans has been doing this well
Haha.
On August 01 2012 08:03 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:
These statistics obviously prove nothing just like last 20 tournaments there was 1 terran in finals it proves NOTHING.
Foreigner terrans are obviously awful players (all of them) which is main reason why they cant win, besides that terran is underpresented (wonder why) which is again reason why terran never wins - not enough terran players. If foreigners stoped whining and started practicing maybe they would win something, just look in Korea everything is fine, so many terrans still dominating and I will go as far to name all of them: Taeja.
MMA, MVP, MKP are obviously whiners that got no clue about the game saying that terran is worst race and I know what they need to do, they need to make RAVENS and start making new builds, I feel like they arent innovative enough.. But yeah with all the recent terran domination (Taeja winning 1 tournament) game is fine and people need to make more ravens, because one raven will deny ALL creep spread, kill 6 queens on its own and destroy zerg economy. Raven - weapon of future.
Also 4 months of tournament results is too low sample size to prove anything.
TLDR: 1)foreigner terrans are awful
2)make ravens.
Good post Beasty, really summarises well.
It's looking more and more like we shall have to accept this is the way it will stay. At least I can feel proud of my wins in Masters.. as one of The Few, The Proud, The Terrans!
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On August 01 2012 21:17 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 21:11 n0ise wrote:On August 01 2012 21:08 Incomplet wrote:
I also feel that Ravens are the key to TvZ. Not only do they clear up creep but HSM will murder clumped infestors, corruptors and broodlords. Not to mention that every Terran is floating 1000+ gas lategame, so we know they have the resources, but rather they just haven't caught on to the metagame. 8/10 gj Anyway, nothing surprising, and these threads will keep popping - did Blizz anwser this yet? No one is expecting another patch before HoTS, but at least any acknowledgement in the forms of "ok, we fucked up, we'll fix it"? Dustin Browder actually did in an NASL interview. Paraphrasing: 'I know a lot of people might hate me for this, but the queen change is working exactly as intended... Terran's should and will learn how to use Ravens.'
Agree 100% with DB that the queen buff was a good change and accomplished alot.
I just don't agree with him about the whole ravens thing, they need to make them easier to use. Terran already is heavily constrained by high-apm micro in battles that is heavily punished for not being executed unlike the zerg/protoss counterparts (no offense meant, just saying that the low-hp terran units require certain unit control) and needs to have a simpler to use caster like infestor/templar. Just a simple range upgrade to seeker missle is all the game needs, after that it'll be alot more dynamic and exciting and allow for more varied strategies that revolve around a late-game that isn't based off denying bases and dealing damage.
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Korean Terrans are very strong . The queen upgrade change in a huge way the early metagame. CosmicSpiral you're right this numbers are not very prominent but the stat with all the tournament since the patch seems more interesting.
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I like how people blindly point to Korean Terrans doing well without considering the competition at all. Who is actually doing consistently great as a Terran against Zerg? Like, all the time against the highest level Zergs? I haven't seen anyone. MKP drops games to Idra now, Taeja has mostly been simply outclassing his opponents, etc. etc. Who exactly is crushing face as a Korean Terran on a regular basis (not some freak win once in awhile and discarding every game they lose).
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On August 01 2012 21:08 Incomplet wrote:
I also feel that Ravens are the key to TvZ. Not only do they clear up creep but HSM will murder clumped infestors, corruptors and broodlords. Not to mention that every Terran is floating 1000+ gas lategame, so we know they have the resources, but rather they just haven't caught on to the metagame.
Here we go again. You should NEVER be able to get a HSM off on a bunch of infestors because the spell has a much shorter range than fungal. Also, a Zerg has to literally not be looking at their army to have all of their broods clumped up like that.
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On August 01 2012 23:10 Scrubwave wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 21:17 -_- wrote:On August 01 2012 21:11 n0ise wrote:On August 01 2012 21:08 Incomplet wrote:
I also feel that Ravens are the key to TvZ. Not only do they clear up creep but HSM will murder clumped infestors, corruptors and broodlords. Not to mention that every Terran is floating 1000+ gas lategame, so we know they have the resources, but rather they just haven't caught on to the metagame. 8/10 gj Anyway, nothing surprising, and these threads will keep popping - did Blizz anwser this yet? No one is expecting another patch before HoTS, but at least any acknowledgement in the forms of "ok, we fucked up, we'll fix it"? Dustin Browder actually did in an NASL interview. Paraphrasing: 'I know a lot of people might hate me for this, but the queen change is working exactly as intended... Terran's should and will learn how to use Ravens.' So DW is one of the noobcakes who think that Ravens actually stop zerg from getting 3rd easily and work wonders against broodlord/infestor? Though I think I know what "exactly as intended" means- make SC2 zerg dominated just before HoTS, that will boost the sales, right? Wonder what they will come up with before Protoss campaign.
DB also said that trading 2 Hellions for 6 Drones is "worth it" without realizing that you can easily remake the Drones whereas losing all your Hellions means giving up your map control, since by this time you probably swapped your Factory and expanded. Still doesn't help you delay the Zerg third, either.
Apparently Blizzard thinks a pre-5 minute third should be standard for Zerg. No idea why. No other race is capable of doing that without metagaming their opponent pretty hard.
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On August 01 2012 07:31 MCXD wrote:
This is actually misleading, because terran is very underrepresented in america and europe (esp at high levels). Regardless of balance, it's expected statistically that there would be less terrans. For that reason alone, the statistics here can't be trusted to make the point that terran is underpowered.
Furthermore, if you look at korean matchup statistics recently, everything is actually pretty close to 50%.
Thats a false statement to make, a couple of months ago terran were really overrepresented in Europe
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EPT
