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On August 01 2012 07:31 MCXD wrote: For that reason alone, the statistics here can't be trusted to make the point that terran is underpowered.
Exactly. Statistics should never be trusted.
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The question seems to be:
Do we balance for Korean or foreign terrans?
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Interesting question, considering there is a huge gap between korean and foreign zerg players, but the game is balanced for BOTH of these groups. Biased much?
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this chart shows what all terran and a lot of toss and zerg know. Terran is able to win something, but you need to be an outstanding korean player like taeja! If you are not able to macro and micro absolutely perfectly you cant win a game against zerg after 15mins game time.
even a lot of terran progamer have to play allins because they know they cant win against lategame zerg (lategame tvp is also a little in favor of toss imho)
i think its hard for blizzard to change something as long as there are 3-5 terran players worldwide which can compare. cause they just want to balance the absolutely pro level.
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On August 01 2012 16:42 TypeDBS wrote: i have made more money by systematically betting against terrans than those have won in prizemoney in the same time. (until teaja won mlg).
That's actually hilarious.
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On August 01 2012 16:56 m0ck wrote: The question seems to be:
Do we balance for Korean or foreign terrans? Everyone already knows the answer to this question even if they don't like the answer.
You always balance for the highest level.
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On August 01 2012 17:02 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 16:56 m0ck wrote: The question seems to be:
Do we balance for Korean or foreign terrans? Everyone already knows the answer to this question even if they don't like the answer. You always balance for the highest level.
thats why blizzard nerfs reapers for 2v2 and 4v4 ;D
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On August 01 2012 17:03 Satiinifi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 17:02 Tachion wrote:On August 01 2012 16:56 m0ck wrote: The question seems to be:
Do we balance for Korean or foreign terrans? Everyone already knows the answer to this question even if they don't like the answer. You always balance for the highest level. thats why blizzard nerfs reapers for 2v2 and 4v4 ;D Blizzard doesn't always do what's best for esports ;( that's why the colossus is still in the game.
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On August 01 2012 17:03 Satiinifi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 17:02 Tachion wrote:On August 01 2012 16:56 m0ck wrote: The question seems to be:
Do we balance for Korean or foreign terrans? Everyone already knows the answer to this question even if they don't like the answer. You always balance for the highest level. thats why blizzard nerfs reapers for 2v2 and 4v4 ;D
Speed Void rays were also super OP in those competitive 2's and 4's let's not forget those too.
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This thread makes me reinforce the ideia that uneducated people should have a forum to themselves to vent all the ideias that don't make any sense. Terran could be weak, but arguing that on the basis of a bad statistical analysis is worthless. I take the guy that did the OP never had any class on statistics in college (if he even goes to one).
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Yes I already knew foreigners can't play terran, what's your point?
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but havn't the only major tournaments that have been won by a foreign terran been won by the same player, Thorzain. The gap between a foreign terran winning a major tournament was from TSL 3 until recently when Thorzain won Dreamhack. So I don't quite understand how this is a surprise. Foreigner Terrans have had little to no dominance in sc2 and when the only major tournaments are won by the same player with a dry spot of over a year, why would someone expect a foreign pro who wants to actually win tournaments to play terran, hence them being underrepresented (unless they want to move to korea and train there).
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First I checked these statistics and terran looked really weak, but seems like it's all fine.
Because you guys made realize that Terran is supposed to be weaker when it comes to player at equal skill level, even if it's the highest level of play. Wow, thanks guys it all makes sense now.
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On August 01 2012 17:26 nimp4344 wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but havn't the only major tournaments that have been won by a foreign terran been won by the same player, Thorzain. The gap between a foreign terran winning a major tournament was from TSL 3 until recently when Thorzain won Dreamhack. So I don't quite understand how this is a surprise. Foreigner Terrans have had little to no dominance in sc2 and when the only major tournaments are won by the same player with a dry spot of over a year, why would someone expect a foreign pro who wants to actually win tournaments to play terran, hence them being underrepresented (unless they want to move to korea and train there).
Not all players go by the rule " I want to play the race that win the more. ", so it don't really explain why we have litteraly ZERO Up & Coming Terran players in the foreigner scene. :/
I mean.. there has to be some players who we don't know about who are good terrans, right ? ...
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On August 01 2012 17:34 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 17:26 nimp4344 wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but havn't the only major tournaments that have been won by a foreign terran been won by the same player, Thorzain. The gap between a foreign terran winning a major tournament was from TSL 3 until recently when Thorzain won Dreamhack. So I don't quite understand how this is a surprise. Foreigner Terrans have had little to no dominance in sc2 and when the only major tournaments are won by the same player with a dry spot of over a year, why would someone expect a foreign pro who wants to actually win tournaments to play terran, hence them being underrepresented (unless they want to move to korea and train there).
Not all players go by the rule " I want to play the race that win the more. ", so it don't really explain why we have litteraly ZERO Up & Coming Terran players in the foreigner scene. :/ I mean.. there has to be some players who we don't know about who are good terrans, right ? ... Illusion is the one everyone talks about, but he doesn't have any results to justify that hype besides taking out a few Koreans in an IPL (i think it was). He does look really skilled, but yeh zergs are popping up everywhere in Europe with big results. Terran is just too demanding for the foreigners.
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On August 01 2012 16:18 FuzzyJAM wrote: See, Zerg and Protoss whine was never this sophisticated. This is yet more proof that Terran domination was simply because we're more intelligent. Sadly, even our superior intellect isn't helping us when we're given a rubber knife to fight against assault shotguns.
:[
User was warned for this post Didn't know TL mods were Romanian.
User was warned for this post
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You could maybe make a case that the game isn't balanced in the semi-pro/foreign scene, but it would be difficult to make a case that Terran is unfairly bad at the highest levels when Taeja is dominating everyone in astounding fashion right now. I also think that we will see a trend of top korean pro terrans continuing to do better as long as Taeja's dominance continues.
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On August 01 2012 18:03 ABear wrote: You could maybe make a case that the game isn't balanced in the semi-pro/foreign scene, but it would be difficult to make a case that Terran is unfairly bad at the highest levels when Taeja is dominating everyone in astounding fashion right now. I also think that we will see a trend of top korean pro terrans continuing to do better as long as Taeja's dominance continues.
Do you really call a player winning his first tournament dominating? Seems a bit over the top...
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TaejA also won that ESV thing smashing Squirtle in the finals and is basically the reason why Liquid are playing in the IPL TAC finals.
He is blowing everyone the fuck up.
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On August 01 2012 10:27 Incomplet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 10:17 rd wrote:On August 01 2012 09:58 Phobbers wrote:On August 01 2012 09:50 Incomplet wrote: Taeja destroying Genius and Coca just now on IPL. Sorry if Taeja can beat top notch Koreans, other Terrans can. They need to watch, learn and adapt.
Or in MVP's case, recover from his injury. Saying because X player can do it is one of THE worst arguments one can make. Almost as bad as saying since X player beat Y player, and since Y player beat Z player, that means X player > Z player. Not every Terran can be Taeja. And not every Terran plays the caliber of Korean players Taeja does, i.e. most of WCS. Thats the thing...not being able to play at the caliber of Taeja is NOT an excuse. Its the Pro's job to train hard to become equivalent if not better. Similarly there is a good reason why Koreans consistently out-perform foreigners in every single tournament. Koreans aren't born better at SC2, their genetics dont make them better at SC2, its simply their training regiment and work ethic. Its this kind of attitude why foreigners have already lost before the game even begins. Saying things like "not everyone can be like Taeja". Taeja is human just like everyone else, and if he can do it then anyone can despite their skin color. All you need is the will and determination to do so and the results will come.
i read all the posts up to the most recent, but this one...
not being able to play at the caliber of DRG/Stephano is NOT an excuse. not being able to play at the caliber of MC/Seed is NOT an excuse.
see what i did there? fact is taeja is the strongest terran atm, there are more accomplished ones (<3 MVP) but currently, taeja is the player to beat, playing terran like him is about as easy as playing the guitar like eric clapton (ok that might be too much praise for taeja but you get what i mean)
zerg and protoss on the other hand see success (and a good amount of it if you look around) without even coming close to the best players of their race, terran is undoubtly UP below the prolevel (and even there below the toptier level), and the worrysome part is, that even at the highest level we have hints of imbalance.
there is really only one option, since flatout buffing terran could mean total domination by the top5 terrans:
instead, raise the skill ceiling of protoss and zerg, they have it too easy right now, make it so that they can practice 8 hours a day and still have room to improve, players like DRG/Stephano/MC/Seed would welcome these changes with open arms... and these "new up and coming" Z or P players could prove that they do not just ride on the path paved by blizzard and better players to shut out the midtier terrans, that obviously exist as well.
or... we dumb down terran by giving them amovers in hots... *yawn* -.-
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