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On August 01 2012 08:01 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 07:58 Grapefruit wrote:On August 01 2012 07:50 CosmicSpiral wrote:On August 01 2012 07:47 Jombozeus wrote:On August 01 2012 07:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Boring and irrelevant statistics.
A. No attempts to determine how many terrans actually participated in the tournaments, and no breakdown in how terrans dissipate through the brackets.
B. No comparison with past national tournaments in terms of race distribution.
C. The false assumption that terran had equal representation prior to the queen patch. Terran "dominance" in the first half of 2011 was strictly limited to Korea; terran has always been underrepresented in the international scene in terms of tournament placings.
D. The false assumption that every country has equal representation in both race and skill (which is the only way these numbers could be taken seriously in the first place).
The creator of the chart is a hack. He is well-known in the Reddit community for whining about terran. Looks like you made all the assumptions and drew all the conclusions. At no point did he explain the statistics. The bias is actually quite hilarious. You're not very intelligent. My assumptions about his assumptions are true, since they are the only ways in which his statistics can be taken seriously. And since he is well-known for complaining about terran under-representation in tournaments (and making posts about statistics to whine about it), it's obvious what the point of his post is. 3 things. First off, I didn't make this image. Second, this is pure data without analysis or anything. Third, stop being a dick for now reason, not cool. http://www.reddit.com/user/dv0rakftw"48% of tourneys with 0 or 1 Terran and the same only for 7% Protoss and 4% Zerg is not massaging numbers. IT'S NOTICING SOMETHING THAT IS FUCKED UP." "The guys at Blizzard don't seem to understand it. I was done for at least a month, maybe longer, but every time I try to get out they drag me back in. You're tired of the graphs? I'm more tired of the shitty TvZ games. You get dozens of new threads here every day. I get to look at brackets hoping Terrans get to dodge as many Zerg as possible. (I will however do tomorrow's post on Premier Tournaments as just text because Liquipedia's old results didn't have standard formatting.) But good catch on me forgetting to mention that previous imbalance is no justification for current imbalance." "Please skip the "more time for meta" and "things are fine in Korea" comments. We've heard it already. I also know TaeJa won at MLG and GuMiho won GSTL with an all-kill. This isn't to say Terrans can't win. It's harder than it should be. TvZ has become less fun to watch. Even less so to play. People who want to accuse me of cherry-picking data should also explain why Terrans are under-represented in GM on every server including Korea and why in July's TLPD stats, Terrans win less than 40% of TvZ matches on half the maps which have significant numbers. And please note I could have made it look even worse for Terran by taking out the three pre-patch events. I will do a separate post, probably tomorrow, on Premier tournaments but I wanted to look at Top 8 in Blizzard's own worldwide tournaments. To recap the infograph: Almost half of WCS tournaments had one or no Terrans in the Top 8. Almost half and just over a third of WCS tournaments had four or more Protoss and Zerg players respectively in the Top 8 while not a single one had more than three Terrans. If there is a job available at Blizzard as Balance Statistician I am available. Please consider this and previous posts like this as my resume demonstrating my ability to count." Pure data without analysis, right? Unbiased gathering of data right?
Jesus fucking Christ, are you insane or something?
What the actual fuck? Stop lashing out so hard. I am NOT this person, neither did I post ANY of his opinions. All I did was post this image, which is simply a collection of data.
Why does this bother you that much?!
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On August 01 2012 08:05 Grapefruit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 08:01 CosmicSpiral wrote:On August 01 2012 07:58 Grapefruit wrote:On August 01 2012 07:50 CosmicSpiral wrote:On August 01 2012 07:47 Jombozeus wrote:On August 01 2012 07:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Boring and irrelevant statistics.
A. No attempts to determine how many terrans actually participated in the tournaments, and no breakdown in how terrans dissipate through the brackets.
B. No comparison with past national tournaments in terms of race distribution.
C. The false assumption that terran had equal representation prior to the queen patch. Terran "dominance" in the first half of 2011 was strictly limited to Korea; terran has always been underrepresented in the international scene in terms of tournament placings.
D. The false assumption that every country has equal representation in both race and skill (which is the only way these numbers could be taken seriously in the first place).
The creator of the chart is a hack. He is well-known in the Reddit community for whining about terran. Looks like you made all the assumptions and drew all the conclusions. At no point did he explain the statistics. The bias is actually quite hilarious. You're not very intelligent. My assumptions about his assumptions are true, since they are the only ways in which his statistics can be taken seriously. And since he is well-known for complaining about terran under-representation in tournaments (and making posts about statistics to whine about it), it's obvious what the point of his post is. 3 things. First off, I didn't make this image. Second, this is pure data without analysis or anything. Third, stop being a dick for now reason, not cool. http://www.reddit.com/user/dv0rakftw"48% of tourneys with 0 or 1 Terran and the same only for 7% Protoss and 4% Zerg is not massaging numbers. IT'S NOTICING SOMETHING THAT IS FUCKED UP." "The guys at Blizzard don't seem to understand it. I was done for at least a month, maybe longer, but every time I try to get out they drag me back in. You're tired of the graphs? I'm more tired of the shitty TvZ games. You get dozens of new threads here every day. I get to look at brackets hoping Terrans get to dodge as many Zerg as possible. (I will however do tomorrow's post on Premier Tournaments as just text because Liquipedia's old results didn't have standard formatting.) But good catch on me forgetting to mention that previous imbalance is no justification for current imbalance." "Please skip the "more time for meta" and "things are fine in Korea" comments. We've heard it already. I also know TaeJa won at MLG and GuMiho won GSTL with an all-kill. This isn't to say Terrans can't win. It's harder than it should be. TvZ has become less fun to watch. Even less so to play. People who want to accuse me of cherry-picking data should also explain why Terrans are under-represented in GM on every server including Korea and why in July's TLPD stats, Terrans win less than 40% of TvZ matches on half the maps which have significant numbers. And please note I could have made it look even worse for Terran by taking out the three pre-patch events. I will do a separate post, probably tomorrow, on Premier tournaments but I wanted to look at Top 8 in Blizzard's own worldwide tournaments. To recap the infograph: Almost half of WCS tournaments had one or no Terrans in the Top 8. Almost half and just over a third of WCS tournaments had four or more Protoss and Zerg players respectively in the Top 8 while not a single one had more than three Terrans. If there is a job available at Blizzard as Balance Statistician I am available. Please consider this and previous posts like this as my resume demonstrating my ability to count." Pure data without analysis, right? Unbiased gathering of data right? Jesus fucking Christ, are you insane or something? What the actual fuck? Stop lashing out so hard. I am NOT this person, neither did I post ANY of his opinions. All I did was post this image, which is simply a collection of data. Why does this bother you that much?!
Well the data is bad and misleading as I pointed out in my post on the first page, and the reason this is troubling is because if I went around handing out an article that said...hmm... how bout it said that President wasn't born in the United States, yet I had no idea if the article had any truth to it or not, people might actually believe it was true, and then we would have a problem wouldn't we.
It simply is not morally acceptable to spread information saying "hey look at this, it is interesting" before you fact check it, unless your intentionally trying to mislead people, which is also not morally acceptable.
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On August 01 2012 08:03 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:
These statistics obviously prove nothing just like last 20 tournaments there was 1 terran in finals it proves NOTHING.
Foreigner terrans are obviously awful players (all of them) which is main reason why they cant win, besides that terran is underpresented (wonder why) which is again reason why terran never wins - not enough terran players. If foreigners stoped whining and started practicing maybe they would win something, just look in Korea everything is fine, so many terrans still dominating and I will go as far to name all of them: Taeja.
MMA, MVP, MKP are obviously whiners that got no clue about the game saying that terran is worst race and I know what they need to do, they need to make RAVENS and start making new builds, I feel like they arent innovative enough.. But yeah with all the recent terran domination (Taeja winning 1 tournament) game is fine and people need to make more ravens, because one raven will deny ALL creep spread, kill 6 queens on its own and destroy zerg economy. Raven - weapon of future.
Also 4 months of tournament results is too low sample size to prove anything.
TLDR: 1)foreigner terrans are awful
2)make ravens.
I second this.
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Let's just wait until the monthly win-rates.
They will at least provide a bit more of validity to complains and offer some counter-points.
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On August 01 2012 08:10 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 08:05 JJH777 wrote:On August 01 2012 08:01 Prog455 wrote:On August 01 2012 07:40 Toppp wrote:On August 01 2012 07:37 Detri wrote:
What people seem to forget is that a lot of the best players in Korea play terran, due to boxer. They would be good with any race. Could you imagine taeja microing mutas? or storms? Or gumiho's multitasking with a warp prism and ling runbys?? what does this have to do with anything? It has something to do with the fact, that some people justifies the current state Terran as a race solely because a few top Korean Terran players are doing well. By that logic, one could however argue that the latest Zerg buffs should be reversed, given the fact that players like Stephano, DRG and Nestea was doing just fine without Queen range buff or Overlord speed buff. It is also funny to note how next to unknown players such as Sortof and JonnyREcco all of a sudden manages to beat players such as SaSe and most notably NaNiwa. And even though ThorZaIN did beat Sortof in the last round of the finals, they practically played even, winning three games each. It's not just a few good Terrans. Tons of Terrans in Korea are still doing fine. Nestea/DRG weren't doing fine without the queen buff they both got eliminated in the first round of the GSL pre-queen buff. In fact the season immediately before the queen buff was the worst zerg GSL season ever as far as zerg placements. I'm pretty sure that the dreamhack that Naniwa lost to 2 random zergs was before the queen buff. Plenty of other Protoss are beating good zergs. Even this GSL season zerg didn't dominate the way they would have if they were truly imbalanced. Also there are only 2 zergs in top 16 of OSL and they are Nestea/DRG and it doesn't look like anymore will get through. Zergs also didn't do particularly good at WCS Korea with both Nestea and Symbol losing in the qualifiers. It is the nature of GSL to lag a bit behind the overall representation due to seeds.
Only the top 8 gets seeded. Less than half the zergs in the ro32 advanced to the ro16. It has nothing to do with seeds. A lot of those zergs lost to terrans. Also it's not just GSL it's the korean scene in general. Look at the TSL4 KR qualifiers. Terran had the most winners.
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I think the OP needs to underline more low terran percentages as clearly, those figures point to zerg being OP. And these threads are becoming a joke.
Terran were completely overpowered for the most part of 2years and there wasn't a thread every other day about the bullshit of PvT and ZvT at the time, most people got on with it tried to come up with new shit or had faith that blizzard would sort it out if it was truly unfair.
No matter how balanced this game becomes, sometimes the metagame will fuck over a race, if you followed bw nearly every race had its dark days, months and even years. Whine is getting out of hand.
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On August 01 2012 08:09 pmp10 wrote:
Let's just wait until the monthly win-rates.
They will at least provide a bit more of validity to complains and provide counter-points.
monthly win rates are ~ 43.5-56.5 in the zergs favour they put out an unoffical preview
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I find it humorous how the Zergs immediately get defensive. That's when you know that even they acknowledge something is wrong, but don't want to admit it.
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This is what happens when uneducated people get talking power. As many have said, OP is a fail statistics post.
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On August 01 2012 08:14 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 08:11 JJH777 wrote:On August 01 2012 08:10 monkybone wrote:On August 01 2012 08:05 JJH777 wrote:On August 01 2012 08:01 Prog455 wrote:On August 01 2012 07:40 Toppp wrote:On August 01 2012 07:37 Detri wrote:
What people seem to forget is that a lot of the best players in Korea play terran, due to boxer. They would be good with any race. Could you imagine taeja microing mutas? or storms? Or gumiho's multitasking with a warp prism and ling runbys?? what does this have to do with anything? It has something to do with the fact, that some people justifies the current state Terran as a race solely because a few top Korean Terran players are doing well. By that logic, one could however argue that the latest Zerg buffs should be reversed, given the fact that players like Stephano, DRG and Nestea was doing just fine without Queen range buff or Overlord speed buff. It is also funny to note how next to unknown players such as Sortof and JonnyREcco all of a sudden manages to beat players such as SaSe and most notably NaNiwa. And even though ThorZaIN did beat Sortof in the last round of the finals, they practically played even, winning three games each. It's not just a few good Terrans. Tons of Terrans in Korea are still doing fine. Nestea/DRG weren't doing fine without the queen buff they both got eliminated in the first round of the GSL pre-queen buff. In fact the season immediately before the queen buff was the worst zerg GSL season ever as far as zerg placements. I'm pretty sure that the dreamhack that Naniwa lost to 2 random zergs was before the queen buff. Plenty of other Protoss are beating good zergs. Even this GSL season zerg didn't dominate the way they would have if they were truly imbalanced. Also there are only 2 zergs in top 16 of OSL and they are Nestea/DRG and it doesn't look like anymore will get through. Zergs also didn't do particularly good at WCS Korea with both Nestea and Symbol losing in the qualifiers. It is the nature of GSL to lag a bit behind the overall representation due to seeds. Only the top 8 gets seeded. Less than half the zergs in the ro32 advanced to the ro16. It has nothing to do with seeds. A lot of those zergs lost to terrans. Also it's not just GSL it's the korean scene in general. Look at the TSL4 KR qualifiers. Terran had the most winners. People who don't get seeded into code S, get seeded into code A which is a qualifier for code S. Hence you can't just look at the top 8. There's stort of a downward seed system which makes GSL lag behind in representation. In fact, who got into code A this season? I can name you a few top Terrans... It has already started, and I'm pretty sure the representation will stabilize in favor of Zerg given enough time.
There are no good Terrans in code B to get to Code A. Terrans already have the least amount of players on Korean pro teams and between Code A/Code S they already have like 30 players in GSL. Also Code A is already over and there are only 5 Zergs in Code S right now. There are still the up/downs but Zerg had 9 players last season. There are a lot of Zergs in the up/downs but tbh it is looking the amount of Zergs in Code S is going to DECREASE from last season.
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United States15275 Posts
On August 01 2012 08:01 Antares_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 07:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Boring and irrelevant statistics.
A. No attempts to determine how many terrans actually participated in the tournaments, and no breakdown in how terrans dissipate through the brackets.
B. No comparison with past national tournaments in terms of race distribution.
C. The false assumption that terran had equal representation prior to the queen patch. Terran "dominance" in the first half of 2011 was strictly limited to Korea; terran has always been underrepresented in the international scene in terms of tournament placings.
D. The false assumption that every country has equal representation in both race and skill (which is the only way these numbers could be taken seriously in the first place).
The creator of the chart is a hack. He is well-known in the Reddit community for whining about terran. A) WCS is an open tournament. It means that low number of Terrans = they couldn't even qualify for the national level. B) There was no national tournaments in the past, except for Sweden Championship at last Dreamhack. C) There was underrepresented, but still, those few had much higher win right than now. That's why we use percentage, not pure numbers. D) Every country has at least 3-4 good Terrans. There has to be a reason why guys like Tarson, DieStar, ClouD, Goody, KawaiiRice, TriMaster or BratOK didn't go through their national levels. Statistic is a statistic, it couldn't be taken as a the only determinant, but has to be considered. And when it comes to statistics, it doesn't matter who did them as long as the data isn't fake.
A) Since we do not know the race distribution of the total pool that attempted to qualify, a low number of terrans does not tell us anything. It could be that a low number of terrans (compared to their counterparts) attempted to qualify. It could be that a large number of terrans attempted and lost to a large number of zergs. It could be anything. But proper statistical analysis would take such things into consideration.
B) Any good statistician would mention that there are few examples that fit the same parameters, hence why he/she does not make comparisons to pre-patch tournaments. This is pretty standard.
C) This would actually require proof that includes more than a small sample size of premier tournaments. You would also have to include team leagues, weekly and monthly tournaments, invitationals, etc.
D) Few of these players were ever considered top-tier within the foreign community. For the most part the best players in EU and NA were always zerg and protoss. If you only used premier tournaments as evidence, there will always be problems with separating racial imbalance from skill difference, bad luck, bad nerves, etc. Ideally you would want to take the above terrans and trace their winrates from a set pre-patch point to the present. Even then you would have to take into account personal issues, changes in playstyles, and so on.
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On August 01 2012 08:03 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:
These statistics obviously prove nothing just like last 20 tournaments there was 1 terran in finals it proves NOTHING.
Foreigner terrans are obviously awful players (all of them) which is main reason why they cant win, besides that terran is underpresented (wonder why) which is again reason why terran never wins - not enough terran players. If foreigners stoped whining and started practicing maybe they would win something, just look in Korea everything is fine, so many terrans still dominating and I will go as far to name all of them: Taeja.
MMA, MVP, MKP are obviously whiners that got no clue about the game saying that terran is worst race and I know what they need to do, they need to make RAVENS and start making new builds, I feel like they arent innovative enough.. But yeah with all the recent terran domination (Taeja winning 1 tournament) game is fine and people need to make more ravens, because one raven will deny ALL creep spread, kill 6 queens on its own and destroy zerg economy. Raven - weapon of future.
Also 4 months of tournament results is too low sample size to prove anything.
TLDR: 1)foreigner terrans are awful
2)make ravens.
THIEF!
You copied and pasted this from a few months ago when there was 1 Protoss in GSL code and just changed Protoss to Terran, Immortal to Raven, Terran to Zerg, Queen to Banshee, and then replaced some high level Protoss players with high level Terran players.
It originally read like this:
+ Show Spoiler +On or around a few months ago... Whiner wrote:
These statistics obviously prove nothing just like last 20 tournaments there was 1 Protoss in finals it proves NOTHING.
Foreigner Protoss are obviously awful players (all of them) which is main reason why they cant win, besides that protoss is underpresented (wonder why) which is again reason why protoss never wins - not enough protoss players. If foreigners stoped whining and started practicing maybe they would win something, just look in Korea everything is fine, so many protoss still dominating and I will go as far to name all of them: Alicia.
MC, Naniwa, Huk are obviously whiners that got no clue about the game saying that Protoss is worst race and I know what they need to do, they need to make IMMORTALS and start making new builds, I feel like they arent innovative enough.. But yeah with all the recent Protoss domination (MC winning 1 tournament) game is fine and people need to make more IMMORTAL, because one IMMORTAL will deny the 1-1-1, kill 6 Banshee on its own and destroy Terran economy. Immortal - weapon of future.
Also 4 months of tournament results is too low sample size to prove anything.
TLDR: 1)foreigner Protoss are awful
2)make Immortals.
But seriously, fact is Beasty, we've seen the whining before. And fact is that Terran is underrepresented, and that it is a problem. But if you actually took the time to look at the statistics that I posted on page 1, despite being underrepresented, they have good success. And when they are fairly represented, they have great success. Take a peek at the data.
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On August 01 2012 08:12 Tantaburs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 08:09 pmp10 wrote:
Let's just wait until the monthly win-rates.
They will at least provide a bit more of validity to complains and provide counter-points. monthly win rates are ~ 43.5-56.5 in the zergs favour they put out an unoffical preview
That's not the whole story.
AFAIK there is a sizable difference between Korean and international results.
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I hope next patch blizz reduces the raven build time by 10 secs to balance the things out, reaction of mad terran hordes would be priceless :D
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On August 01 2012 08:05 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 08:01 Prog455 wrote:On August 01 2012 07:40 Toppp wrote:On August 01 2012 07:37 Detri wrote:
What people seem to forget is that a lot of the best players in Korea play terran, due to boxer. They would be good with any race. Could you imagine taeja microing mutas? or storms? Or gumiho's multitasking with a warp prism and ling runbys?? what does this have to do with anything? It has something to do with the fact, that some people justifies the current state Terran as a race solely because a few top Korean Terran players are doing well. By that logic, one could however argue that the latest Zerg buffs should be reversed, given the fact that players like Stephano, DRG and Nestea was doing just fine without Queen range buff or Overlord speed buff. It is also funny to note how next to unknown players such as Sortof and JonnyREcco all of a sudden manages to beat players such as SaSe and most notably NaNiwa. And even though ThorZaIN did beat Sortof in the last round of the finals, they practically played even, winning three games each. It's not just a few good Terrans. Tons of Terrans in Korea are still doing fine. Nestea/DRG weren't doing fine without the queen buff they both got eliminated in the first round of the GSL pre-queen buff. In fact the season immediately before the queen buff was the worst zerg GSL season ever as far as zerg placements. I'm pretty sure that the dreamhack that Naniwa lost to 2 random zergs was before the queen buff. Plenty of other Protoss are beating good zergs. Even this GSL season zerg didn't dominate the way they would have if they were truly imbalanced. Also there are only 2 zergs in top 16 of OSL and they are Nestea/DRG and it doesn't look like anymore will get through. Zergs also didn't do particularly good at WCS Korea with both Nestea and Symbol losing in the qualifiers.
1. It is true that DRG did not make it past RO34 at GSL 2012 Season 2. However. You should note that he WON the previous GSL season. In addition to this, he placed second at MLG Winter Championship just four days before he lost in RO34.
2. It is true that Nestea did not live up to his usual standards at GSL 2012 Season 2, but i think it is safe to say that Nestea has been doing just fine without Zerg buffs even though every other Zerg was struggling, at almost any given time
3. NaNiwa lost to JonnyREcco and Sortof during WCS and TSL4, both of which happened this weekend
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EPT
