If you seriously try to tell me that any of these units (or the pathing) are well-designed, then I might reach through the internet and smack you in the face. At best, a few of these might be ok, but none of them are good, and several of them are terrible.
So no, it's not people being resistant to change. That's a ridiculous statement and it makes you sound incredibly ignorant of what the actual problems with all of these units are.
explain what exactly is wrong with the design of each of those units.
On July 13 2012 18:52 Rabiator wrote: One suggestion for Blizzard to fix these "free unit generators": - give the "mother unit" (Swarm Host and Broodlord) energy (no starting energy upgrade!) - balance the quality of the Broodling to make them less survivable - let each "autocast"-shot of the Broodlord cost some energy (~5 energy should be enough for the Broodlord) - switch the Swarm Host to be able to "swarm" (spawn 4 of his units for 50 energy with a duration of 10 seconds BUT requiring a target in sight before they start moving)
You should consider if you make Broodlings weaker they could get vaporized in an instant leaving the broodlords defensless. Sometimes you need the broodlings as a wall of units. Also if they have energy they would be useless against ghost emp´s and feedback one could say. Sure there would be more micro. The last point : What if i just pull one marine again and again till all energy is gone from the Hosts.
Not saying i don´t like your thoughts but they would need to be tested a shit ton =)
Broodlords are "defenseless" if they arent supported by Infestors/Corruptors/... right now already. The Broodlings on the other hand are an unfair unit because they are FREE and block movement for any unit trying to get close to the Broodlords. In this regard they are worse than Forcefield or Fungal Growth. If I understand it correctly the Broodling also deals AoE damage when it lands and that is really [too?] powerful against Terran bio.
wtf. Broodlings thrown by Broodlords are not just a "free" unit you can spawn.
Do the Broodlings cost minerals? Nope. Do the Broodlings cost energy? Nope. Do the Broodlings cost supply? Nope.
What else do you need to prove they are "free"? UNLIMITED SUPPLY of them? Of course they are spawned only in regular intervals. Of course they dont last long (which is basically one of their advantages)!
Their costs are included in the Broodlords costs.
ROFL ... if that were the case the Interceptor on a Carrier should be free as well, but they arent. In any case they are SPAWNED and have HIT POINTS and thus are separate entities. The Broodlord cost only pays for the ability to spawn them.
Which is the same. If you upgrade spidermines you also only pay for the ability to spawn spidermines, but laying the mines is still free. But my arguement is, that you already paid indirectly for spidermines through the upgrade, through building the vulture and through getting the factory and all you need for producing them.
Which ISNT the same ... or can you lay infinite spider mines? Nope.
On July 13 2012 18:52 Rabiator wrote: One suggestion for Blizzard to fix these "free unit generators": - give the "mother unit" (Swarm Host and Broodlord) energy (no starting energy upgrade!) - balance the quality of the Broodling to make them less survivable - let each "autocast"-shot of the Broodlord cost some energy (~5 energy should be enough for the Broodlord) - switch the Swarm Host to be able to "swarm" (spawn 4 of his units for 50 energy with a duration of 10 seconds BUT requiring a target in sight before they start moving)
You should consider if you make Broodlings weaker they could get vaporized in an instant leaving the broodlords defensless. Sometimes you need the broodlings as a wall of units. Also if they have energy they would be useless against ghost emp´s and feedback one could say. Sure there would be more micro. The last point : What if i just pull one marine again and again till all energy is gone from the Hosts.
Not saying i don´t like your thoughts but they would need to be tested a shit ton =)
Broodlords are "defenseless" if they arent supported by Infestors/Corruptors/... right now already. The Broodlings on the other hand are an unfair unit because they are FREE and block movement for any unit trying to get close to the Broodlords. In this regard they are worse than Forcefield or Fungal Growth. If I understand it correctly the Broodling also deals AoE damage when it lands and that is really [too?] powerful against Terran bio.
wtf. Broodlings thrown by Broodlords are not just a "free" unit you can spawn.
Do the Broodlings cost minerals? Nope. Do the Broodlings cost energy? Nope. Do the Broodlings cost supply? Nope.
What else do you need to prove they are "free"? UNLIMITED SUPPLY of them? Of course they are spawned only in regular intervals. Of course they dont last long (which is basically one of their advantages)!
Their costs are included in the Broodlords costs.
ROFL ... if that were the case the Interceptor on a Carrier should be free as well, but they arent. In any case they are SPAWNED and have HIT POINTS and thus are separate entities. The Broodlord cost only pays for the ability to spawn them.
Which is the same. If you upgrade spidermines you also only pay for the ability to spawn spidermines, but laying the mines is still free. But my arguement is, that you already paid indirectly for spidermines through the upgrade, through building the vulture and through getting the factory and all you need for producing them.
Which ISNT the same ... or can you lay infinite spider mines? Nope.
Your point was that the "flaw" was that the units are free, not that they are unlimited. So, is this the problem you have with the BL? That it can produce unlimited units? or that it can produce free units? Or is your problem that it can produce free AND unlimited units? Clarify what you want to say, then I'll answer you.
On July 13 2012 21:59 [F_]aths wrote: In Starcraft, nothing is for free. For example, a marine gets free shots (but there is an opportunity cost to building that rine in the first place.) Zerg units heal and protoss shields regenerate, this is kind of "free" HP.
Shots of a Marine are not the same as a UNIT with separate hit points which is a "waste of time to kill". It is a waste of time to kill them because they are never without a "real army" and Broodlings are a temporary unit in the first place. Thats why it is so bad.
The Broodling is so powerful, because it has even better "block the path power" than the Forcefield, which costs 50 energy, isnt on autocast and can be destroyed by Colossi, Thors or Ultralisks. Sure the Broodling can be killed by damage, but it also deals damage and thus HAS TO BE killed. A Forcefield is just a static and temporary blockage which you could just run away from. Thus the Broodling is a terrible design and why on earth do the Broodlings DONT cost anything when the Interceptors from a Carrier do? They could at least have made it 1-2 minerals each Broodling or alternatively energy.
On July 13 2012 21:59 [F_]aths wrote: In Starcraft, nothing is for free. For example, a marine gets free shots (but there is an opportunity cost to building that rine in the first place.) Zerg units heal and protoss shields regenerate, this is kind of "free" HP.
Shots of a Marine are not the same as a UNIT with separate hit points which is a "waste of time to kill". It is a waste of time to kill them because they are never without a "real army" and Broodlings are a temporary unit in the first place. Thats why it is so bad.
The Broodling is so powerful, because it has even better "block the path power" than the Forcefield, which costs 50 energy, isnt on autocast and can be destroyed by Colossi, Thors or Ultralisks. Sure the Broodling can be killed by damage, but it also deals damage and thus HAS TO BE killed. A Forcefield is just a static and temporary blockage which you could just run away from. Thus the Broodling is a terrible design and why on earth do the Broodlings DONT cost anything when the Interceptors from a Carrier do? They could at least have made it 1-2 minerals each Broodling or alternatively energy.
I guess it's because a carrier can attack air that they cost minerals.
If you seriously try to tell me that any of these units (or the pathing) are well-designed, then I might reach through the internet and smack you in the face. At best, a few of these might be ok, but none of them are good, and several of them are terrible.
So no, it's not people being resistant to change. That's a ridiculous statement and it makes you sound incredibly ignorant of what the actual problems with all of these units are.
explain what exactly is wrong with the design of each of those units.
Colossus - An incredibly powerful AoE unit that has a high level of mobility and no micro potential. Makes for boring games (from both a spectator and player PoV) and makes the Protoss army way too reliant on them.
Marauder - A beefy unit that HARD counters Stalkers, Roaches, and even Immortals (in the proper numbers), can be Stimmed to run as fast as a Stimmed Marine, and has an attack that slows, removing micro potential from other units, which is incredibly frustrating and unpleasant, both for the player and spectator. Hard counters are bad game design to begin with, as is a slow that is so easy to use in a game like SC2.
Roach - Boring, generic tier 1 beefy A-move unit with pathetic micro potential (Burrow micro actually tends to be harmful, especially if they have a detector) and is so good that it is used in a wide variety of situations. Also 2 food, taking away from the swarm feeling.
Tempest - 22 range unit (what?) that has an incredibly slow shooting rate. Ok, the range itself isn't necessarily the problem, but one strong attack every 6 seconds is just horrific design. It doesn't have any kind of interesting mechanic; the most you're going to get is positional play due to its long range. On the flip side, Protoss air is too weak to defend this thing if it is harassing from an air-only position (Vikings/Corruptors will just demolish it and anything else with it), and in any other case it is just going to add to the deathball syndrome that everyone knows and hates because it will need to be protected. Not only does this thing not have any micro potential without even needing to test it, it costs a shitload and is the very last unit that a Protoss can make. This thing is probably going to see the light of day about as much as the Carrier. To add further insult to injury, it is replacing one of the most iconic SC units of all time (the Carrier) when they could have just made the Carrier viable by putting any effort at all into actually making it viable.
Widow Mine - 10 second detonation time makes this thing about as useful as the Nydus Worm. Not only that, letting it be built from the Factory and cost food instead makes it so that if you shorten it, it will be so stupidly powerful that you just can't really make this thing work.
Corruptor - Do I need to explain this? There is literally nothing interesting about this unit and I really can't think of an air unit that can beat mass Corruptors - Maybe mass Mutalisks? Phoenixes, VR's, Carriers - No. Vikings, BC's - No. Way too good and way too boring to watch or play with.
Hellion, Warhound - Again, these two units won't have much micro potential; the Hellion is going to be a slow a-move unit that attacks in a cone. The Warhound is basically a crappy Goliath with an automated anti-armor missile. First, auto-casting spells are pretty bleh design to begin with. Second, one of mech's biggest problems (and one of the things that makes it not very viable) is its lack of AA, which this doesn't address. Third, these two units just serve to turn mech into another version of M&M by making it more mobile and A-move worthy. That isn't exciting or interesting or fun in any way. One of the coolest things about Terran in BW was the fact that they had two incredibly different playstyles with two incredibly different strengths and weaknesses; bio vs. mech. We shouldn't be homogenizing their playstyles.
Pathing - This horse has been beaten quite a few times already. You can easily change some values in the map editor to make units move in formation and increase their collision box. From there, buff AoE. Shazzam. We have an incredibly dynamic game that seriously discourages deathball play, which would in turn encourage multiple fronts of attack and would drastically increase defender's advantage, making comebacks possible and just making games better overall. Instead, we have the deathball syndrome; it is oftentimes a bad idea to split your army (because your opponents deathball will just roll over one, then the other) and units are at their most effective when they're all clumped in a tiny ball. Melee units are made to be not very effective due to this and splash damage was nerfed to hell. Furthermore, this encourages the "one engagement and done" games that we see so often. Finally, the game just kind of looks weird and unnatural when your armies consistently try to dry-hump each other when they move.
You can see a trend here; what tends to makes a unit poorly designed is the lack of interesting aspects (a lack of micro potential or interesting, dynamic abilities) coupled with that unit being so good that it becomes the backbone of an army in the vast majority of games. Homogenizing the game also makes for crappy design. It's a lazy way to try to balance the game.
On July 13 2012 18:52 Rabiator wrote: One suggestion for Blizzard to fix these "free unit generators": - give the "mother unit" (Swarm Host and Broodlord) energy (no starting energy upgrade!) - balance the quality of the Broodling to make them less survivable - let each "autocast"-shot of the Broodlord cost some energy (~5 energy should be enough for the Broodlord) - switch the Swarm Host to be able to "swarm" (spawn 4 of his units for 50 energy with a duration of 10 seconds BUT requiring a target in sight before they start moving)
You should consider if you make Broodlings weaker they could get vaporized in an instant leaving the broodlords defensless. Sometimes you need the broodlings as a wall of units. Also if they have energy they would be useless against ghost emp´s and feedback one could say. Sure there would be more micro. The last point : What if i just pull one marine again and again till all energy is gone from the Hosts.
Not saying i don´t like your thoughts but they would need to be tested a shit ton =)
Broodlords are "defenseless" if they arent supported by Infestors/Corruptors/... right now already. The Broodlings on the other hand are an unfair unit because they are FREE and block movement for any unit trying to get close to the Broodlords. In this regard they are worse than Forcefield or Fungal Growth. If I understand it correctly the Broodling also deals AoE damage when it lands and that is really [too?] powerful against Terran bio.
wtf. Broodlings thrown by Broodlords are not just a "free" unit you can spawn.
Do the Broodlings cost minerals? Nope. Do the Broodlings cost energy? Nope. Do the Broodlings cost supply? Nope.
What else do you need to prove they are "free"? UNLIMITED SUPPLY of them? Of course they are spawned only in regular intervals. Of course they dont last long (which is basically one of their advantages)!
Their costs are included in the Broodlords costs.
ROFL ... if that were the case the Interceptor on a Carrier should be free as well, but they arent. In any case they are SPAWNED and have HIT POINTS and thus are separate entities. The Broodlord cost only pays for the ability to spawn them.
Which is the same. If you upgrade spidermines you also only pay for the ability to spawn spidermines, but laying the mines is still free. But my arguement is, that you already paid indirectly for spidermines through the upgrade, through building the vulture and through getting the factory and all you need for producing them.
Which ISNT the same ... or can you lay infinite spider mines? Nope.
Your point was that the "flaw" was that the units are free, not that they are unlimited. So, is this the problem you have with the BL? That it can produce unlimited units? or that it can produce free units? Or is your problem that it can produce free AND unlimited units? Clarify what you want to say, then I'll answer you.
1. There are no spider mines in SC2 and the Widow Mines cost quite a lot and are worse. 2. Spider Mines dont fall into the category of "free unit" because they are one-shot and are of limited supply (per Vulture). They are a mine and not a unit which moves and attacks. 3. Spider Mines dont receive upgrades; Broodlings do. 4. Spider Mines cant be controlled and given a target; a Broodlord can be told to attack target X. No idea if the Broodlings could be told to attack something, but I think it is possible. 5. IIRC Spider Mines deal friendly fire, right? This prevents any "critical mass" from being effective and in any case #4 above will make that useless.
I hope the difference between "unit" and "not a unit" is a bit clearer. Sure the mine has hit points and deals damage, but it cant be controlled and isnt available in unlimited supply are the key differences. In any case the Spider Mine has fewer hit points compared to the Broodling, which - in addition to the armor upgrades - make the SC2 unit much tougher to deal with.
On July 13 2012 21:59 [F_]aths wrote: In Starcraft, nothing is for free. For example, a marine gets free shots (but there is an opportunity cost to building that rine in the first place.) Zerg units heal and protoss shields regenerate, this is kind of "free" HP.
Shots of a Marine are not the same as a UNIT with separate hit points which is a "waste of time to kill". It is a waste of time to kill them because they are never without a "real army" and Broodlings are a temporary unit in the first place. Thats why it is so bad.
The Broodling is so powerful, because it has even better "block the path power" than the Forcefield, which costs 50 energy, isnt on autocast and can be destroyed by Colossi, Thors or Ultralisks. Sure the Broodling can be killed by damage, but it also deals damage and thus HAS TO BE killed. A Forcefield is just a static and temporary blockage which you could just run away from. Thus the Broodling is a terrible design and why on earth do the Broodlings DONT cost anything when the Interceptors from a Carrier do? They could at least have made it 1-2 minerals each Broodling or alternatively energy.
I guess it's because a carrier can attack air that they cost minerals.
The real reason is that the Interceptors dont have a duration ... theoretically ... but the truth is that they are shot down by the high concentration of Marines or Hydras in SC2s deathballs or fall victim to Storm / Fungal Growth / Thor anti-air AoE. In BW you didnt have Marines that clumped together this much and could wipe the sky clear with one stimpack.
If you seriously try to tell me that any of these units (or the pathing) are well-designed, then I might reach through the internet and smack you in the face. At best, a few of these might be ok, but none of them are good, and several of them are terrible.
So no, it's not people being resistant to change. That's a ridiculous statement and it makes you sound incredibly ignorant of what the actual problems with all of these units are.
explain what exactly is wrong with the design of each of those units.
I don't think the design is as bad as he thinks for those units but it could be better as well it is less about the bad design and more that the older units are put in different positions.
I'll try to come up with what I think he is trying to say.
Colossus- Fast reaver with splash damage that is designed to kill units in an arch(which is how the pathing lines things up), as well it is the only seige unit to have a relatively fast speed to it. Reaver had the disadvantage of being ridiculously slow(even though shuttles could help) while the colossus is fast so it disagrees with other design ideas like the seige tank and lurker.
Marauder- essentially a biological vulture with stim that can be healed by medics(unless I'm wrong). As well some people don't like the marauders ability to limit movement because movement limits reduce what the player can do.
Roach- I'm not sure what is fundamentally wrong with the roach but it seems like a tier 1ish armored unit that can heal at a faster rate depending on if you have burrow. I assume the OP wants tier 1 to be more vulnerable units that can deal with any form of early aggression faster IE Hydralisk.
Swarm host- lol. If everyone doesn't see what is wrong with this unit I have no idea. #1 it is redundant. #2 it is indirect damage #3 its attack is to make 2 of itself and hope it can get in range. Its job is to control board space but it fails at this job. I was playing around with an older hots unit tester last night the locusts would attack and you would just back up 2 feet go to the left and then move on top of the swarm hosts. If a swarm host were to control a ramp it would only work for the amount of time it took the locusts to get down the ramp to attack and then the units can just circumvent the attack and get up the ramp. Pretty clear failure of a unit IMO.
Widow mine- Personally I like the idea of spider mines in SC2, but I think the problem comes from the fact it is built from the factory. Wasting a factory on a suicide unit isn't very ideal for the terran. Maybe OP doesn't like the attacking air part- I can understand why he doesn't but it just seems like it is there to make up for the fact you wasted factory time on a unit that won't last the entire game.
Corruptor- I don't have too many gripes about the corruptor but I can see where other races would hate it. Mainly because a lot of matches are centric on it to massacre any air units in the sky(which it does well). As an armored air unit it stays alive well and even beats its protoss counter(voidray) really well. Not the most balanced unit, but still necessary because of the colossus, which was included in this list.
Hellion battlemode- essentially a slow mechanical firebat. Unless I'm stupid firebats have to be at the front of the army meaning they have to be faster or as fast as most units. Which is why it worked in BW. At least I would assume. Honestly hellion battlemode just seems pointless because I don't see why anyone would want to transform their vulture-lurker into a big slow firebat.
Warhound- Thinking back to the old design of the unit it had a goliath like AA attack which was good for the game, but that got taken out. With the AA back then it had an anti-mech attack much like a vulture, although it isn't as fast as the vulture. The speed of the vulture really makes it a risk and a reward to attack a seige line because it could just fucking kill you or you will destroy them, depending on the engagement. As for how it was at MLG anaheim is just retarded... "We thought it would be better if it would just auto attack units for you"... What are we call of duty? now we need auto aim? Come on blizzard.
As for the pathing in SC2- it is more designed around singular units instead of large armies. A singular unit can get from place to place easily which is good and all but when it gets to a big army everything just fights for that 1 point everyone wants to go to. Because of that it ends up leading to balls that want nothing more than to collapse in on itself. Instead of the units spreading out well naturally making it possible to have amazing AOE. Eventually people will realize removing limitations destroy games, but for now we have what we have.
Just my thought on what the OP in the quote wanted to say.
If you seriously try to tell me that any of these units (or the pathing) are well-designed, then I might reach through the internet and smack you in the face. At best, a few of these might be ok, but none of them are good, and several of them are terrible.
So no, it's not people being resistant to change. That's a ridiculous statement and it makes you sound incredibly ignorant of what the actual problems with all of these units are.
explain what exactly is wrong with the design of each of those units.
Collusus promotes boring deathball play. Has too much firepower and there's literally no potential at all to micro a collussus. A noob GM can micro a collussus as well as a pro. It's also the most hated unit of the game and if any unit were to be removed, the collussus got the highest votes.
Before you call me out on this, I'll refer to our precious brood war, a game which contains micro besides marine splitting. Watch literally ANY pro game of ZVT or even ZVP on lower levels (because muta's aren't exactly widely used in zvp on the top lvl). Mutalisks can be micro'd. Collussus can't. Retreating your collusus from viking fire or w/e you want to say is NOT micro. My grandma can do that.
Marauder is basically bad design because it represents everything that is not terran from the BW days (It's called SC2 for a reason, it's based on BW so it should respect and hold true to the original concepts/motives/strategys/... that a certain race employed). I'm sure you can ask artosis for more specific reasons on why it's a terribly designed unit.
The roach has these cutesy mechanics to make it seem interesting, but they never get used at all. Do you ever see someone pull off burrowed moving roaches to succes in a pro game? No. It's sounds cool from design, but it's just another useless mechanic to make the game seem deep. For the rest, the roach is just an A-move unit with no micro at all. At least in BW if you went mass hydra's, you had to micro your ass off because they'd die versus a couple of storms if you didn't dodge them. Besides bw also (can't bother to go into the reasons for this) allows you to retreat certain parts of your army (with low health) and then when the opponent targets other units to move them back in etc Who ever does that with roaches? and even if you can find an example, the exception does not prove the rule. All these things we talk about are COMMON in even D+ lvl players of BW.
I can't really talk about the tempest. I like it's model for some reason (perhaps not as a capital ship). I'll let someone else take this one.
The swarm host pales into comparison with the lurker. The lurker can fulfill the roles of the swarm host and can do a billion things more. It's also a lot more exciting to watch as a spectator and player since it requires more than just putting your rally point next to your opponents base. Besides that, the lurker also promotes micro (also requires it) as opposed to the swarm host. The lurker would allow more playstyles while the swarm host doesn't.
The widow mine is just another kick in the face to bw fans. (Besides I don't really see the issue with reintroducing BW units, some people say lack of creativity, which is a pathetic excuse. I'm not going to invent the wheel again to enjoy my car. You have succesful units, use them. It's a sequel after all. You don't have to use every unit, but when you're going to introduce a unit which is inspired by a previous unit and is worse, jezus just introduce the old unit. That would be like not using the wheel for my improved car, but inventing a rectangular 'wheel' and using this instead. And there are millions of people who have never even played BW but played sc2 from the start. They've never played with a lurker, for all they care it's a new unit. And game critics aren't going to give you bad reviews unless they're fucking retarded. A lurker would make the game 100 times better than a SH would, how would it ever result in a worse reviews? And like I said, it's a sequal.)
Back to the widow mine. Something desperately needed in sc2 is zone control. But the widow mine can't give you this. It requires precious factory time, requires supply and is incredibly fragile. For these reasons you can never get a great amount of them, which is needed to secure a certain place from your opponent. Vultures are insanely quick and can scan entire places and quickly drop mines, even in the heat of battle. How in earth's name is the widow mine going to do that? The concept of it detonating after 10 seconds is ok with me. It promotes micro, but then again, the spider mine sure as hell also promoted micro. But I've heard somewhere that you'll just be able to kill the unit to which it attaches? That destroys the widow mines entire purpose. This just limits it's uses more and more. I'm sure other people can give a lot more reasons.
The corruptor is just another boring unit. It requires no micro, it doesn't promote micro. But besides this, I don't really have anything against the corruptor. It does limit your options again. In BW we had the mutalisk, which gave you options to harrass. When the mutalisk's role was over, you could evolve it into two different roles. It opens much more. Now you've basically got the corruptor which evolves into the broodlord. There's no real reason to get corruptors besides the fact that they're incredibly strong against air and morph into the GGlord. (And against the obvious collussus). They don't promote exciting play, they don't create intense situations, they don't open up your options, you only have one option after them and it'd be foolish not to get them.
I'm going to leave the battle mode to someone else.
Warhound is just terrible design. Auto shooting missles to whatever mech unit is in the neighboorhoud? Talk about potential to micro! Another boring a-move unit. And it looks stupid, basically the little pussy sister of the goliath.
Pathing in sc2 is horrid.
Because of BW's pathing, it's possible to intercept the backside of someone's army when it goes up a ramp. Creating dynamic play because everything in BW can be avoided by skill. Well I'm not going to talk about this further, if you want reasoning, just check out one of the dozen threads on TL like modified movement etc
What's worse about all these knockoff HotS units is that they are LESS imba, or not imba at all compared to the units they knocked off.
Let's take the spider mine knock off, make them cost 75/25 a piece, and wait 10 seconds to detonate, and you have to build them? AND Browder's still worried about imbalance and may remove them??!??
I'd really like to know what play level he has in mind. Clearly he doesn't understand that noobies don't mind imbalance as long as they can use it to, and it's fun. It can still be unforgiving for them if you have the exciting chance to obtain it too.
Not to mention Browder ignoring racial identity completely (protoss needs energy to cloak, reaper heals out of combat like a protoss unit). Ugh....
If you seriously try to tell me that any of these units (or the pathing) are well-designed, then I might reach through the internet and smack you in the face. At best, a few of these might be ok, but none of them are good, and several of them are terrible.
So no, it's not people being resistant to change. That's a ridiculous statement and it makes you sound incredibly ignorant of what the actual problems with all of these units are.
explain what exactly is wrong with the design of each of those units.
Colossus - An incredibly powerful AoE unit that has a high level of mobility and no micro potential. Makes for boring games (from both a spectator and player PoV) and makes the Protoss army way too reliant on them.
Marauder - A beefy unit that HARD counters Stalkers, Roaches, and even Immortals (in the proper numbers), can be Stimmed to run as fast as a Stimmed Marine, and has an attack that slows, removing micro potential from other units, which is incredibly frustrating and unpleasant, both for the player and spectator. Hard counters are bad game design to begin with, as is a slow that is so easy to use in a game like SC2.
Roach - Boring, generic tier 1 beefy A-move unit with pathetic micro potential (Burrow micro actually tends to be harmful, especially if they have a detector) and is so good that it is used in a wide variety of situations. Also 2 food, taking away from the swarm feeling.
Tempest - 22 range unit (what?) that has an incredibly slow shooting rate. Ok, the range itself isn't necessarily the problem, but one strong attack every 6 seconds is just horrific design. It doesn't have any kind of interesting mechanic; the most you're going to get is positional play due to its long range. On the flip side, Protoss air is too weak to defend this thing if it is harassing from an air-only position (Vikings/Corruptors will just demolish it and anything else with it), and in any other case it is just going to add to the deathball syndrome that everyone knows and hates because it will need to be protected. Not only does this thing not have any micro potential without even needing to test it, it costs a shitload and is the very last unit that a Protoss can make. This thing is probably going to see the light of day about as much as the Carrier. To add further insult to injury, it is replacing one of the most iconic SC units of all time (the Carrier) when they could have just made the Carrier viable by putting any effort at all into actually making it viable.
Widow Mine - 10 second detonation time makes this thing about as useful as the Nydus Worm. Not only that, letting it be built from the Factory and cost food instead makes it so that if you shorten it, it will be so stupidly powerful that you just can't really make this thing work.
Corruptor - Do I need to explain this? There is literally nothing interesting about this unit and I really can't think of an air unit that can beat mass Corruptors - Maybe mass Mutalisks? Phoenixes, VR's, Carriers - No. Vikings, BC's - No. Way too good and way too boring to watch or play with.
Hellion, Warhound - Again, these two units won't have much micro potential; the Hellion is going to be a slow a-move unit that attacks in a cone. The Warhound is basically a crappy Goliath with an automated anti-armor missile. First, auto-casting spells are pretty bleh design to begin with. Second, one of mech's biggest problems (and one of the things that makes it not very viable) is its lack of AA, which this doesn't address. Third, these two units just serve to turn mech into another version of M&M by making it more mobile and A-move worthy. That isn't exciting or interesting or fun in any way. One of the coolest things about Terran in BW was the fact that they had two incredibly different playstyles with two incredibly different strengths and weaknesses; bio vs. mech. We shouldn't be homogenizing their playstyles.
Pathing - This horse has been beaten quite a few times already. You can easily change some values in the map editor to make units move in formation and increase their collision box. From there, buff AoE. Shazzam. We have an incredibly dynamic game that seriously discourages deathball play, which would in turn encourage multiple fronts of attack and would drastically increase defender's advantage, making comebacks possible and just making games better overall. Instead, we have the deathball syndrome; it is oftentimes a bad idea to split your army (because your opponents deathball will just roll over one, then the other) and units are at their most effective when they're all clumped in a tiny ball. Melee units are made to be not very effective due to this and splash damage was nerfed to hell. Furthermore, this encourages the "one engagement and done" games that we see so often. Finally, the game just kind of looks weird and unnatural when your armies consistently try to dry-hump each other when they move.
You can see a trend here; what tends to makes a unit poorly designed is the lack of interesting aspects (a lack of micro potential or interesting, dynamic abilities) coupled with that unit being so good that it becomes the backbone of an army in the vast majority of games. Homogenizing the game also makes for crappy design. It's a lazy way to try to balance the game.
Think you are forgetting the worst designed unit of all time (other than colossi) - Infestor
If you seriously try to tell me that any of these units (or the pathing) are well-designed, then I might reach through the internet and smack you in the face. At best, a few of these might be ok, but none of them are good, and several of them are terrible.
So no, it's not people being resistant to change. That's a ridiculous statement and it makes you sound incredibly ignorant of what the actual problems with all of these units are.
explain what exactly is wrong with the design of each of those units.
Colossus - An incredibly powerful AoE unit that has a high level of mobility and no micro potential. Makes for boring games (from both a spectator and player PoV) and makes the Protoss army way too reliant on them.
Marauder - A beefy unit that HARD counters Stalkers, Roaches, and even Immortals (in the proper numbers), can be Stimmed to run as fast as a Stimmed Marine, and has an attack that slows, removing micro potential from other units, which is incredibly frustrating and unpleasant, both for the player and spectator. Hard counters are bad game design to begin with, as is a slow that is so easy to use in a game like SC2.
Roach - Boring, generic tier 1 beefy A-move unit with pathetic micro potential (Burrow micro actually tends to be harmful, especially if they have a detector) and is so good that it is used in a wide variety of situations. Also 2 food, taking away from the swarm feeling.
Tempest - 22 range unit (what?) that has an incredibly slow shooting rate. Ok, the range itself isn't necessarily the problem, but one strong attack every 6 seconds is just horrific design. It doesn't have any kind of interesting mechanic; the most you're going to get is positional play due to its long range. On the flip side, Protoss air is too weak to defend this thing if it is harassing from an air-only position (Vikings/Corruptors will just demolish it and anything else with it), and in any other case it is just going to add to the deathball syndrome that everyone knows and hates because it will need to be protected. Not only does this thing not have any micro potential without even needing to test it, it costs a shitload and is the very last unit that a Protoss can make. This thing is probably going to see the light of day about as much as the Carrier. To add further insult to injury, it is replacing one of the most iconic SC units of all time (the Carrier) when they could have just made the Carrier viable by putting any effort at all into actually making it viable.
Widow Mine - 10 second detonation time makes this thing about as useful as the Nydus Worm. Not only that, letting it be built from the Factory and cost food instead makes it so that if you shorten it, it will be so stupidly powerful that you just can't really make this thing work.
Corruptor - Do I need to explain this? There is literally nothing interesting about this unit and I really can't think of an air unit that can beat mass Corruptors - Maybe mass Mutalisks? Phoenixes, VR's, Carriers - No. Vikings, BC's - No. Way too good and way too boring to watch or play with.
Hellion, Warhound - Again, these two units won't have much micro potential; the Hellion is going to be a slow a-move unit that attacks in a cone. The Warhound is basically a crappy Goliath with an automated anti-armor missile. First, auto-casting spells are pretty bleh design to begin with. Second, one of mech's biggest problems (and one of the things that makes it not very viable) is its lack of AA, which this doesn't address. Third, these two units just serve to turn mech into another version of M&M by making it more mobile and A-move worthy. That isn't exciting or interesting or fun in any way. One of the coolest things about Terran in BW was the fact that they had two incredibly different playstyles with two incredibly different strengths and weaknesses; bio vs. mech. We shouldn't be homogenizing their playstyles.
Pathing - This horse has been beaten quite a few times already. You can easily change some values in the map editor to make units move in formation and increase their collision box. From there, buff AoE. Shazzam. We have an incredibly dynamic game that seriously discourages deathball play, which would in turn encourage multiple fronts of attack and would drastically increase defender's advantage, making comebacks possible and just making games better overall. Instead, we have the deathball syndrome; it is oftentimes a bad idea to split your army (because your opponents deathball will just roll over one, then the other) and units are at their most effective when they're all clumped in a tiny ball. Melee units are made to be not very effective due to this and splash damage was nerfed to hell. Furthermore, this encourages the "one engagement and done" games that we see so often. Finally, the game just kind of looks weird and unnatural when your armies consistently try to dry-hump each other when they move.
You can see a trend here; what tends to makes a unit poorly designed is the lack of interesting aspects (a lack of micro potential or interesting, dynamic abilities) coupled with that unit being so good that it becomes the backbone of an army in the vast majority of games. Homogenizing the game also makes for crappy design. It's a lazy way to try to balance the game.
Colossus: could see some improvements in terms of micropotential, yet compared to his ancestor the superslowmoving, random scarabshooting and 4times the damage reaver, the colossus on its own is like 500times more microintense. (not talking reaverdrops, just the design of the unit itself) The thing that is rather bugging with the colossus is, that it is either not strong in enough for harassmentdrops or not fast enough for cliffwalk harassment and some things like the turning speed and the long shooting animation remove quite some potential that the design would offer.
Marauder: Yes, a somewhat boring unit. Not even concussive shells to add some extrakite micropotential can really cover up, that this units role is basically just to make bioplay viable. Very important unit for the balancing, but nothing exciting about it. Basically a highhealth marine, that does a bit better vs some units than the marine, but worse vs others.
Roach: yeah, they fucked it up. Despite the interesting thought of a durable early zerg unit that you can just mix into your usual armies, and the interesting dynamics when mixed with hydralisks + the interesting burrow stuff, the actual stats of the unit turned out to only offer a mass up and attack potential. Needs a rebalancing to work better in small groups, worse in big groups and to act more as an harass unit in the midgame with the burrow movement and regen. The design idea was great, the actual implementation did not turn out that well, due to balancing problems. (1supply, 2armor, 3range roaches had more of the dynamic I described, but were simply too powerful early on)
Tempest: I don't really see the problem with this unit right now, that you do. range 22 makes it pretty hard to attack this thing, unless you get some huge air flanks off, which might lead to very interesting movement dynamics in battles. Also range 22 only works with spotters, so this is far from an a move unit. Intercept the oracle, the obs, the hallu and end the siege. I can see quite some potential for this unit, but it will all come down to the actual gameplay in HotS. About the carrier: right now the carrier is just a bigger stalker, so I don't mind seeing it gone (if it goes). The tempest however, has a different role and as I think that lategames are very passive right now (apart from bioplay), I absolutly do like the idea of more units that can force engagements, like the tempest.
Widow Mine: They are pretty powerful imo. Not vs small units, but vs medium and big units. At least from watching the TvZ Battle Report. Might not be used like a spidermine. I wonder wether you can control on which unit it should bind itself... btw, anyone else getting the feeling that the widow mine is more like the C&C Terror Drone (imo one of the most interesting units in all of RTS history)?
Corruptor: Yes, they said it themselves. That's why they discussed removing it, that's why it gets a harassoriented ability. Right now it's basically just the devourer without detection but a few extraclicks to get the full damage going.
Battlehellions role is to make slow pushing more powerful. You can still transform them to usual microheavy hellions if you want to engage outside of siegelines. The Hellion as it is is fine as microunit, but the factory needed something more tanky (or cheap like the vulture) in front. Enforcing on factory means you enforce on interesting units like the Siege Tank and the usual Hellion, which is good for the gameplay. Warhounds... haven't seen them in action yet, there was no battle report with them, wasn't there? Without at least seeing them in a game, I'm not gonna comment on them. Right now they seem a bit odd, but can't really tell.
Pathing - not gonna comment on it too much, as it doesn't make a lot of sense. They made the game like that, and then balanced everything around this pathing and there is absolutly no way to change it right now, at least not anything bigger. But if I were to choose between BW pathing (crappy), C&C pathing (kind of weirdly big collision boxes, especially with the water units) and SC2 pathing, I'd always take SC2 pathing, as it seems the most intuitive to me.
So I think, on a general scale I can agree that a lot of those units could need some reworks, however a lot of them (roach) are not badly designed, just badly balanced.
I like how there's still people arguing that the pathing in SC2 needs to be changed. /sarcasm
DB already said it isn't going to happen. Stop wasting bytes arguing a moot point. If you want to talk units in this thread talk units. Quit bringing the pathing argument back into it. You've already made your point clear, you hate SC2's pathing and you won't be happy until it's changed.
It's been said one million goddamn times. Stop repeating it. You're just derailing threads with it at this point, it isnt accomplishing anything.
You should consider if you make Broodlings weaker they could get vaporized in an instant leaving the broodlords defensless. Sometimes you need the broodlings as a wall of units. Also if they have energy they would be useless against ghost emp´s and feedback one could say. Sure there would be more micro. The last point : What if i just pull one marine again and again till all energy is gone from the Hosts.
Not saying i don´t like your thoughts but they would need to be tested a shit ton =)
Broodlords are "defenseless" if they arent supported by Infestors/Corruptors/... right now already. The Broodlings on the other hand are an unfair unit because they are FREE and block movement for any unit trying to get close to the Broodlords. In this regard they are worse than Forcefield or Fungal Growth. If I understand it correctly the Broodling also deals AoE damage when it lands and that is really [too?] powerful against Terran bio.
wtf. Broodlings thrown by Broodlords are not just a "free" unit you can spawn.
Do the Broodlings cost minerals? Nope. Do the Broodlings cost energy? Nope. Do the Broodlings cost supply? Nope.
What else do you need to prove they are "free"? UNLIMITED SUPPLY of them? Of course they are spawned only in regular intervals. Of course they dont last long (which is basically one of their advantages)!
Their costs are included in the Broodlords costs.
ROFL ... if that were the case the Interceptor on a Carrier should be free as well, but they arent. In any case they are SPAWNED and have HIT POINTS and thus are separate entities. The Broodlord cost only pays for the ability to spawn them.
Which is the same. If you upgrade spidermines you also only pay for the ability to spawn spidermines, but laying the mines is still free. But my arguement is, that you already paid indirectly for spidermines through the upgrade, through building the vulture and through getting the factory and all you need for producing them.
Which ISNT the same ... or can you lay infinite spider mines? Nope.
Your point was that the "flaw" was that the units are free, not that they are unlimited. So, is this the problem you have with the BL? That it can produce unlimited units? or that it can produce free units? Or is your problem that it can produce free AND unlimited units? Clarify what you want to say, then I'll answer you.
1. There are no spider mines in SC2 and the Widow Mines cost quite a lot and are worse. 2. Spider Mines dont fall into the category of "free unit" because they are one-shot and are of limited supply (per Vulture). They are a mine and not a unit which moves and attacks. 3. Spider Mines dont receive upgrades; Broodlings do. 4. Spider Mines cant be controlled and given a target; a Broodlord can be told to attack target X. No idea if the Broodlings could be told to attack something, but I think it is possible. 5. IIRC Spider Mines deal friendly fire, right? This prevents any "critical mass" from being effective and in any case #4 above will make that useless.
I hope the difference between "unit" and "not a unit" is a bit clearer. Sure the mine has hit points and deals damage, but it cant be controlled and isnt available in unlimited supply are the key differences. In any case the Spider Mine has fewer hit points compared to the Broodling, which - in addition to the armor upgrades - make the SC2 unit much tougher to deal with.
This is just your arbitrary explanation of a unit. 1. I don't get what you want to tell me with that. We were talking designidea of the Broodlord/Broodling (and the Vulture/Spidermine as a comparison). It doesn't matter wether the Vulture is in the game or not, the design idea can still be good or bad. 2. Broodlings have a timed life. They are not a unit that lifes until it gets destroyed. (just another arbitrary explanation of a unit) Also they do move towards their targets if the targets gets in range, just like Broodlings only move once they hit. 3. So if they didn't get the upgrades, they would not be units? 4. yes you can control broodlings. And no, you cannot control interceptors either, but before you said that interceptors are nonfree units - so they are units and therefore control does not seem to be necessary for a unit. 5. ??? Noone has ever stopped to put down spidermines, just because they deal friendly damage. Furthermore, Broodlings are also limited due to their timed life, there is a maximum. If you think that maximum is imba, then this is not a design, but a balancing problem and can be solved by turning up the direct damage the BL inflicts, but turning down the lifetime and amount of Broodlings (firerate, only one broodling at the first shot) - but still the BL would have the same design, just a different balancing.
From Liquipedia: Spider Mine Type: Small Ground Unit
On July 13 2012 19:43 IIIOmegaIII wrote: lol this is just stupid. how can u judge a unit that hasnt been released yet?
It has been released. It has been shown to us in full, and can be tested in the HOTS emulator. Blizzard gave us the concept, and what we are saying here is that the concept of the SH is terrible. I would rather the lurker, OR something even better.
SH just sucks.
ye... sounds legit. stating that a unit sux without testing it. this thread would be worth something 1 month into the beta. for now though, its completely useless. talking about how fun a unit is that hasnt been released is doesnt say anything.
If you seriously try to tell me that any of these units (or the pathing) are well-designed, then I might reach through the internet and smack you in the face. At best, a few of these might be ok, but none of them are good, and several of them are terrible.
So no, it's not people being resistant to change. That's a ridiculous statement and it makes you sound incredibly ignorant of what the actual problems with all of these units are.
Face-smacks are not sound arguments.
SC2 combat and unit usage differs from BW. SC2 is another game and requires other units. For many, "different to the things I am used to" equals "bad". Or "lack of imagination how to use this unit in an interesting way" computes to "boring".
I don't much understand these kinds of polls when we havn't even got beta to play with the new units. I can't say how good it is before I try it out against an another masters-level player. And before others have done the same, I can't say how you can judge the power of a unit either.
It looks interesting because it's not burst damage, but I fear that it wont play at all like the old lurker did, because of it's slow damage, I fear it might be completely useless against fast ground units, which I feel could make it kind of useless against anything but very slow units... But I can't make that call without playing around with it, so I chose not to vote in any of those categories. But I do think the Swarm Host looks a lot cooler than the lurker does. Can tell there have been put a lot of effort into the model, which I appreciate.
On July 13 2012 21:59 [F_]aths wrote: In Starcraft, nothing is for free. For example, a marine gets free shots (but there is an opportunity cost to building that rine in the first place.) Zerg units heal and protoss shields regenerate, this is kind of "free" HP.
Shots of a Marine are not the same as a UNIT with separate hit points which is a "waste of time to kill". It is a waste of time to kill them because they are never without a "real army" and Broodlings are a temporary unit in the first place. Thats why it is so bad.
The Broodling is so powerful, because it has even better "block the path power" than the Forcefield, which costs 50 energy, isnt on autocast and can be destroyed by Colossi, Thors or Ultralisks. Sure the Broodling can be killed by damage, but it also deals damage and thus HAS TO BE killed. A Forcefield is just a static and temporary blockage which you could just run away from. Thus the Broodling is a terrible design and why on earth do the Broodlings DONT cost anything when the Interceptors from a Carrier do? They could at least have made it 1-2 minerals each Broodling or alternatively energy.
Of course it's not the same. If anything would be the same, the races would be like the same, too. But any unit has the potential to deal unlimited damage. To allow for interesting dynamic, some units deal damage in a different way.
The broodling is powerful, as any unit is powerful in the right circumstance. The BL is a tier 3.5 unit, a game finisher. To oversimplify it: When you have already won, you can afford Broodlords to actually end the game.
A broodling doesn't has to be killed, it is often more efficient to tolerate the damage and attack the broodlords instead.
You mention the force field and somehow conclude that the broodling is "terrible" design? I don't think you made a good argument.
The lurker model didn't get any work, of course it looks ugly. Check out some concept art of it, they could make an equally as cool model. Besides not only is the swarm host a horror for people with trypophobia, it's basically parasect with teeth.
If you seriously try to tell me that any of these units (or the pathing) are well-designed, then I might reach through the internet and smack you in the face. At best, a few of these might be ok, but none of them are good, and several of them are terrible.
So no, it's not people being resistant to change. That's a ridiculous statement and it makes you sound incredibly ignorant of what the actual problems with all of these units are.
Face-smacks are not sound arguments.
SC2 combat and unit usage differs from BW. SC2 is another game and requires other units. For many, "different to the things I am used to" equals "bad". Or "lack of imagination how to use this unit in an interesting way" computes to "boring".
No, those are just excuses you use to brush off valid arguments about SC2's shortcomings as an e-sport. It isn't a matter of "lack of imagination"; the very mechanics of units like the Colossus, Roach, Tempest, and Corruptor do not allow for micro or other dynamic gameplay.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.google.be/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/015/3/0/Zerg_Lurker_by_UpsideDownBattleship.jpg&sa=X&ei=oxv-T4LTBsa7hAfMvaXmBg&ved=0CAkQ8wc4jgI&usg=AFQjCNHz4OmWzLDBwF0kLDvYmCXQDBqs0Q)
![[image loading]](http://i45.tinypic.com/4l58pc.jpg)
