EPTLurker vs Swarm Host - Page 32
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
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[]Phase[]
Belgium927 Posts
On July 13 2012 17:25 Frankon wrote: Who forces you to burrow all the swarm host at the same time? Burrow half and the rest 10 seconds later. You can also just activate / deactivate autocasting. But tbh, You'd want all your locusts together, because otherwise they just get shot down before they can do ANYTHING. If u let them go in big waves, you got a bigger chance of some reaching the wall. So yes, 25s / wave seems like an eternity, and deactivating auto cast for 10 sec wont really solve the problem. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
Nevertheless, if you want to compare the Swarm Host with anything in the game now it should be the Brood Lord. To be honest, I don't think both units should be in the game, since they fulfill similar roles, but the Swarm Host feels to me like a better design. It comes earlier and allows for early game pressure and it's less of a critical mass death ball unit. If anything, I would remove the Brood Lord/Corruptor from the game and try to come up with more interesting zerg air. (since corruptors are utterly boring) | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 13 2012 19:23 Rabiator wrote: Broodlords are "defenseless" if they arent supported by Infestors/Corruptors/... right now already. The Broodlings on the other hand are an unfair unit because they are FREE and block movement for any unit trying to get close to the Broodlords. In this regard they are worse than Forcefield or Fungal Growth. If I understand it correctly the Broodling also deals AoE damage when it lands and that is really [too?] powerful against Terran bio. wtf. Broodlings thrown by Broodlords are not just a "free" unit you can spawn. They don't last long, they are only "produced" when you can shoot something. Their basic role is to hit once or twice, mess around with the movement and absorb damage. They are limited, because there is a maximum amount of Broodlords and a maximum amount of Broodlings that can live at the same time. Same thing for the swarm hosts locusts. Similar for ITs (limited by lifetime/energy), similar for interceptors (limited by carrier amount) and spidermines (limited by ressources on a map). As any economist could tell you, the broodlings are part of the deal, when you pay for a Broodlord. Yes if the broodlord lives long, it has probably spawned more than an average amount of broodlings you usually pay for. Same thing goes for any attacking unit. A marine costs a certain amount of money and has a certain gametheoretical strenght. But if it lives longer than it should, it has shot more often than it should. That's not called unfair, that's the whole purpose of playing an RTS game. Make your units return more, than you paid for them. (talking about a gametheoretical cost) If you are so hung up on the BL throwing Broodlings, then I'd propose that they reintroduce Guardians that come from the corruptor, that have a small stun (mess with the movement, prevent the unit from attacking) and hit units are recognized as infected with a X% chance of getting hit by friendly units for a short amount of time, thus absorbing some more damage and making friendly units splash their own units. Wow - same effect but no unit spawn now (when balanced right with all the stats). And for swarm hosts: Make it slow moving projectiles that can be shot and statistically do similar amounts of damage as the locusts do. Would you then be happy? no free units anymore, same effect for BL and SH. (if you find anything wrong with how this would be different, I'm pretty sure this can be fixed by introducing a million more effects on BLs and swarm hosts, so that in the end you have the exact same thing as "spawning free units", just that you don't need to spawn units) | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On July 13 2012 20:18 Big J wrote: [...] That's not called unfair, that's the whole purpose of playing an RTS game. Make your units return more, than you paid for them. [...] Well actually... Wasn't Zerg designed by Blizzard to be the swarmy bug race with cost ineffective mobile units backed up by good economy and reproduction capabilities? Yep, exactly like the Brood Lord. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10823 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 13 2012 20:25 ZenithM wrote: Well actually... Wasn't Zerg designed by Blizzard to be the swarmy bug race with cost ineffective mobile units backed up by good economy and reproduction capabilities? Yep, exactly like the Brood Lord. I was talking "gametheoretical costs". Should add that to clarify. Not to mention that, no they didn't. They designed SC1 and BW, and it just turned out like that in terms of strategy. In terms of units (and ingame costs), zerglings and ultralisks are terrible costefficient in certain numbers, not even gonna start with defilers and lurkers. Or guardians and devourer. A lot of those units are just not used like that, because things like production and how maps are designed have led to a certain balancing for strategies, but that doesn't turn the zergling inefficient designwise. They are just used inefficiently strategywise. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On July 13 2012 18:52 Rabiator wrote: One suggestion for Blizzard to fix these "free unit generators": - give the "mother unit" (Swarm Host and Broodlord) energy (no starting energy upgrade!) - balance the quality of the Broodling to make them less survivable - let each "autocast"-shot of the Broodlord cost some energy (~5 energy should be enough for the Broodlord) - switch the Swarm Host to be able to "swarm" (spawn 4 of his units for 50 energy with a duration of 10 seconds BUT requiring a target in sight before they start moving) This "fix" would make those units very complicated to use (and they would be easily countered by a ghost EMP.) | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On July 13 2012 20:18 Big J wrote: wtf. Broodlings thrown by Broodlords are not just a "free" unit you can spawn. Do the Broodlings cost minerals? Nope. Do the Broodlings cost energy? Nope. Do the Broodlings cost supply? Nope. What else do you need to prove they are "free"? UNLIMITED SUPPLY of them? Of course they are spawned only in regular intervals. Of course they dont last long (which is basically one of their advantages)! On July 13 2012 20:51 [F_]aths wrote: This "fix" would make those units very complicated to use (and they would be easily countered by a ghost EMP.) Not really ... since an EMP can only remove 100 energy, the Swarm Host is triggered and if you chainclick 4 times with a full 200 energy you can get the full amount of use out of him and can unburrow and initiate the "get the hell out of here maneuver". My design was to merge the idea of spawning units with the short range lurker attack and shaping it like a swarm of units to prove the name to be somewhat accurate. Dropping one of them into a mining base and using full energy could provide something similar to Storm drops ... even though it takes a bit longer due to the burrowing. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On July 13 2012 16:36 larse wrote: OK. I will make a nasty point here. We all know that there are a lot of SC1 players and fans don't like the transition into SC2 in Korean SPL and OSL. There are many reasons, subjective or objective. But the most fundamental and ultimate reason is that SC2 is not a game that the majority of SC1 fans approves and appreciates. SC2 is considered as just a "different game", rather than a real sequel that possess an improved experience for both players and spectators, for strategies and tactics, and for competition and esports. Even in the Alpha phase of SC2 many SC1 fans with dense experiences of StarCraft pro scene have given constructive criticisms and suggestions about how to make a better sequel, Blizzard still insists on many of the fundamental design flaws that later are proved to be deal-breaker to the whole gameplay and esports experiences. Two most criticized problem is the deathball and lack of micro-able units and maybe the reluctant to bring back SC1 units. These problems were pointed out in 2009 way before the game is finalized but Blizzard just ignored them. The funniest thing is that these problems have been continuously brought up even until today. But Dustin Browder's famous response is: "if you want BW, just go play BW. It's still a great game". This is arrogance to some extent. And this arrogance later bites in the !@#. Diablo 3 is the best example of this. Their ignorance of the fan base's opinion pays them back with one of the most criticized game (Diablo 3) in history. I think that is not a good point you made. Yes, BW with highres 3D widescreen graphics would have made many existings fan happy, D2 with highres widescreen would have made many old Diablo fans happy. But those games don't have much potential to appeal to a new audience. Newer games should not only allow you to relive the old experience, they should provide new experiences, too. I would say that Blizzard did right with not forcing themselves to get any known BW unit back into SC2. Sadly, some fans seem to think they somehow own the game, and they don't allow it to change to get new guys into the scene. I like the swarm host more than the lurker because of a few things: I don't need to morph units, I can morph him from a larva. I don't need to get close to the enemy, I can burrow in safe distant and rally the swarmlings to the enemy outpost. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10823 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 13 2012 21:06 Rabiator wrote: Do the Broodlings cost minerals? Nope. Do the Broodlings cost energy? Nope. Do the Broodlings cost supply? Nope. What else do you need to prove they are "free"? UNLIMITED SUPPLY of them? Of course they are spawned only in regular intervals. Of course they dont last long (which is basically one of their advantages)! Their costs are included in the Broodlords costs. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On July 13 2012 21:10 Velr wrote: People wouldn't complan about all these old BW units if the new ones would actually be any good. Actually, they do complain despite they are good. But since they are different from what they know, they label them "awful" or proclaim "bad design". | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On July 13 2012 21:09 [F_]aths wrote: I think that is not a good point you made. Yes, BW with highres 3D widescreen graphics would have made many existings fan happy, D2 with highres widescreen would have made many old Diablo fans happy. But those games don't have much potential to appeal to a new audience. Newer games should not only allow you to relive the old experience, they should provide new experiences, too. I would say that Blizzard did right with not forcing themselves to get any known BW unit back into SC2. Sadly, some fans seem to think they somehow own the game, and they don't allow it to change to get new guys into the scene. I like the swarm host more than the lurker because of a few things: I don't need to morph units, I can morph him from a larva. I don't need to get close to the enemy, I can burrow in safe distant and rally the swarmlings to the enemy outpost. I hope you have READ "Lord of the Rings" and remember it well. There is one part in Rohan, where the dwarf Gimli discovers some natural caves near Helms Deep (where the civilians hide) and these caves are described to be very beautiful to him as a dwarf. He then says his people will make pilgrimages to look at them and take a chip here and there once every month to improve them where they can be improved ever so slowly over the course of decades/centuries without ruining them. Blizzard has taken the opposite approach to SC2 and has made HUGE changes with the usual stupid excuse of having to create a "new game" or else fans would get mad. That was the wrong approach and they didnt think their macro mechanics and production boosts through or else they would have noticed that they wont work equally well on maps of all sizes. Balancing is only done through unit stats and that is BAD due to the significant difference in reproduction speed between the races. It would have been ok if Terrans had REALLY TOUGH units which take long to build and you need a full Zerg army to kill half of a Terran army, but thats not what it looks like atm. Protoss non-Warp Gate units should have been equally tough. The Swarm Host (and the Widow Mine) now are an attempt to mix in a few more BW elements by randomly mixing some BW concepts with SC2 concepts and calling it a unit. It doesnt work, because many of them really dont make sense. The Widow Mine is the easiest example. If I was a general and a weapons designer came to me with the design of a mine with a 10 sec fuse AFTER it had attached itself I would instantly send that designer to the firing squad and have him shot for treason! For the Swarm Host the question is: Why on earth is it called SWARM Host when it only spawns one lousy unit once every blue moon? On July 13 2012 21:12 Big J wrote: Their costs are included in the Broodlords costs. ROFL ... if that were the case the Interceptor on a Carrier should be free as well, but they arent. In any case they are SPAWNED and have HIT POINTS and thus are separate entities. The Broodlord cost only pays for the ability to spawn them. On July 13 2012 21:13 [F_]aths wrote: Actually, they do complain despite they are good. But since they are different from what they know, they label them "awful" or proclaim "bad design". Many complaints are about units which have become TOO GOOD due to the deathball movement in SC2. That is the chief reason why Lurkers wont work in SC2 without heavy modifications to the gameplay OR the Lurker. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 13 2012 21:25 Rabiator wrote: ROFL ... if that were the case the Interceptor on a Carrier should be free as well, but they arent. In any case they are SPAWNED and have HIT POINTS and thus are separate entities. The Broodlord cost only pays for the ability to spawn them. Which is the same. If you upgrade spidermines you also only pay for the ability to spawn spidermines, but laying the mines is still free. But my arguement is, that you already paid indirectly for spidermines through the upgrade, through building the vulture and through getting the factory and all you need for producing them. | ||
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BOJINKINS
Canada13 Posts
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On July 13 2012 21:25 Rabiator wrote: I hope you have READ "Lord of the Rings" and remember it well. There is one part in Rohan, where the dwarf Gimli discovers some natural caves near Helms Deep (where the civilians hide) and these caves are described to be very beautiful to him as a dwarf. He then says his people will make pilgrimages to look at them and take a chip here and there once every month to improve them where they can be improved ever so slowly over the course of decades/centuries without ruining them. Blizzard has taken the opposite approach to SC2 and has made HUGE changes with the usual stupid excuse of having to create a "new game" or else fans would get mad. That was the wrong approach and they didnt think their macro mechanics and production boosts through or else they would have noticed that they wont work equally well on maps of all sizes. Balancing is only done through unit stats and that is BAD due to the significant difference in reproduction speed between the races. It would have been ok if Terrans had REALLY TOUGH units which take long to build and you need a full Zerg army to kill half of a Terran army, but thats not what it looks like atm. Protoss non-Warp Gate units should have been equally tough. The Swarm Host (and the Widow Mine) now are an attempt to mix in a few more BW elements by randomly mixing some BW concepts with SC2 concepts and calling it a unit. It doesnt work, because many of them really dont make sense. The Widow Mine is the easiest example. If I was a general and a weapons designer came to me with the design of a mine with a 10 sec fuse AFTER it had attached itself I would instantly send that designer to the firing squad and have him shot for treason! For the Swarm Host the question is: Why on earth is it called SWARM Host when it only spawns one lousy unit once every blue moon? Lord of the Rings has nothing to do with Starcraft unit design. I don't think you really qualify to call Blizzard's decision "stupid". What credentials do you have? Did you already produce a commercially successful or at least critically well-received game? The fact that you don't understand Blizzard's decisions does not mean they took the wrong decisions. You can have any opinion about them, but an opinion doesn't qualify as a fact. Also there is probably nothing randomly from BW mixed into HotS. I guess that the team approaches any idea very carefully and with the attitude of a professional game designer, because they working on a prestigious title and do have credentials. Also when they explain things, their arguments are quite reasonable and thought-out. If I remember correctly, the swarm host spawns two locusts at a time, and several hosts can generate quite a swarm. On July 13 2012 21:25 Rabiator wrote: ROFL ... if that were the case the Interceptor on a Carrier should be free as well, but they arent. In any case they are SPAWNED and have HIT POINTS and thus are separate entities. The Broodlord cost only pays for the ability to spawn them. Many complaints are about units which have become TOO GOOD due to the deathball movement in SC2. That is the chief reason why Lurkers wont work in SC2 without heavy modifications to the gameplay OR the Lurker. In Starcraft, nothing is for free. For example, a marine gets free shots (but there is an opportunity cost to building that rine in the first place.) Zerg units heal and protoss shields regenerate, this is kind of "free" HP. Spawned attack units are movable weapons which have a life timer, but respawn. This is limited by energy or a cooldown, so any unit can have only X spawned units at a time. You don't get "free" supply as you pay with the supply cost of the host. Carrier interceptors don't have a life timer. Reaver scarabs costs money, too, even though their life is timed, but that is to compensate for the potential of damage. (Also it requires more micro to keep the reaver able to attack, auto-attack would be too easy.) You also should not demand that because unit X has property Y, that unit Z should have that property, too ("free" spawns for no additional cost once the unit is built.) Starcraft follows an asymmetrical design. Using the term "deathball" doesn't help in arguing versus the lurker. The lurker and the banelings have too much overlapping roles, despite being very different units. | ||
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wcr.4fun
Belgium686 Posts
In one of his recent interviews he didn't hesitate one second to say that if the mine doesn't work out, they'll remove it from the game. And what about the replicator or w/e it's name was? got removed pretty quickly. - Remove the mine - Remove the swarm host - Remove the warhound - Give the ugly ass viper another model. And don't know if they can change anything about it, but abduct looks terrible. - I don't hate the tempest model that much. It's functionality is pretty stupid though. - Give the spider mine to a factory unit - Add the lurker - Give us something decent instead of this warhound | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On July 13 2012 21:13 [F_]aths wrote: Actually, they do complain despite they are good. But since they are different from what they know, they label them "awful" or proclaim "bad design". Colossus Marauder Roach Tempest Swarm Host Widow Mine Corruptor Hellion battle mode Warhound Pathing in SC2 If you seriously try to tell me that any of these units (or the pathing) are well-designed, then I might reach through the internet and smack you in the face. At best, a few of these might be ok, but none of them are good, and several of them are terrible. So no, it's not people being resistant to change. That's a ridiculous statement and it makes you sound incredibly ignorant of what the actual problems with all of these units are. | ||
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