EPTLurker vs Swarm Host - Page 34
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PlanitDuck
United States36 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
On July 14 2012 00:41 PlanitDuck wrote: The Swarm Host would look alright if it weren't for the holes and bulbs on the back. Those make my skin crawl. They look like fun for game play though! Also excited about FAST hydras! Maybe they'll be useable again! You have to kind of admire that though, don't you? That the unit can do that do you. :-p I really appreciate that the Zerg have units that are literally horrific, terrifying abominations that can even make your skin crawl. :-p The speedy Hydras are more than likely going to be pretty damn good, at the very least they'll be awesome for stutterstepping now! :-D | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On July 14 2012 00:48 Grumbels wrote: No, people start with the assumption all these units are terrible, then they list characteristics of those units and conclude it is those characteristics that make the unit terrible. Nobody has used the tempest and it only appears for two fights in a staged Blizzard battle report, same for the swarm host and the other HotS units, there's nothing to qualify any of you to call it bad design. What do you think happens when Dustin Browder or anyone from Blizzard reads this thread? Why would they sit through an endless amount of posts calling everything about Starcraft II endemic of Blizzard's total incompetence and stupidity? The design of the Tempest is clearly horrible, if you can't see that man... It's an aoe air unit that is supposed to acquire air superiority with a air to ground range comparable to the tank... And it's not even slow. Really. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 14 2012 01:26 WhiteDog wrote: The design of the Tempest is clearly horrible, if you can't see that man... It's an aoe air unit that is supposed to acquire air superiority with a air to ground range comparable to the tank... And it's not even slow. Really. That's what I love most about those critics. When people dont even know what they talk about. The current Tempest does not have air splash. It's not an air superiority unit anymore. And it's range is not compareable to the tank. It's quite longer. | ||
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wcr.4fun
Belgium686 Posts
On July 14 2012 01:25 Zambrah wrote: You have to kind of admire that though, don't you? That the unit can do that do you. :-p I really appreciate that the Zerg have units that are literally horrific, terrifying abominations that can even make your skin crawl. :-p The speedy Hydras are more than likely going to be pretty damn good, at the very least they'll be awesome for stutterstepping now! :-D I just see a huge difference in quality between the viper (or swarmhost -> in game model) and the mutalisk for example: ![[image loading]](http://munich-starcraft.de/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Starcraft_2_Viper1.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100817015538/starcraft/images/2/2d/Mutalisk_SC2_Rend1.jpg) I really dislike both models (viper and swarm host), they're so unnatural and difficult to take seriously. A hydralisk, zergling or mutalisk on the other hand COULD be real. | ||
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Nachtwind
Germany1130 Posts
They don´t have the same roll. If you would compare banelings with lurkers well i would give you a shot. The second mistake that comes with this comparison is - that people look only yet for the unit alone. One have used lurkers alone very well. Swarm hosts are not that kind of unit. They will always have backup in form of Viper, Infestor and dmg dealing units as you could see in the Battlereport ZvP. But also one shouldn´t read too much into battlereports because you will not see the conjunction with other units like roaches, banelings, infestors, mutalisk and broodlords or even ling sorounds while the locust are the real dmg dealer in that combination. The design itself is really interesting when you look at the current meta in zergs mid and late game in form from ling/bling/muta roachling/bling infestor/brood ling/ultra/infestor etc. Doesn´t matter though if one likes it or not. Also one note they can attack air. What that means isn´t fully clear to anyone here. So please when you try to look at the swarm host don´t just view the unit itself, see the conjunctions. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On July 14 2012 01:33 Big J wrote: That's what I love most about those critics. When people dont even know what they talk about. The current Tempest does not have air splash. It's not an air superiority unit anymore. And it's range is not compareable to the tank. It's quite longer. I'm still right... The simple fact that the design of the Tempest changed that much is a testimony by blizzard of how failed that unit is. It was designed to be a counter to muta, and now it's a protoss air tank. Fail. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
On July 14 2012 01:44 wcr.4fun wrote: I just see a huge difference in quality between the viper (or swarmhost -> in game model) and the mutalisk for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPlvLb4jBLA I really dislike both models (viper and swarm host), they're so unnatural and difficult to take seriously. A hydralisk, zergling or mutalisk on the other hand COULD be real. If anything the Viper looks like something that could legitimately exist, since it's spines are fairly realistically proportioned, all it'd need is bigger wings, really. Anyhow, the Zerg aesthetic seems to be an an unnatural natural look, which the Viper achieves well, in my opinion. The Swarm Host could be made to look a little more functional though. EDIT: The Swarm Host really needs to look more like a unit that is truly suited to subterranean activity. It looks too much like something that would curl up into a defensive posture on the outer side of the ground, rather than something that prefers to spend it's time underneath of it. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 14 2012 02:06 WhiteDog wrote: I'm still right... The simple fact that the design of the Tempest changed that much is a testimony by blizzard of how failed that unit is. It was designed to be a counter to muta, and now it's a protoss air tank. Fail. just that the tank has like double the dps, 2/3 of the range, AoE and can't fly. And no, they didn't change it because they "failed". They changed it because they introduced the phoenix upgrade and Protoss found out how to deal with mutas anyways. Furthermore, that is why you test things... | ||
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ArcticRaven
France1406 Posts
On July 14 2012 02:06 WhiteDog wrote: I'm still right... The simple fact that the design of the Tempest changed that much is a testimony by blizzard of how failed that unit is. It was designed to be a counter to muta, and now it's a protoss air tank. Fail. Well, for their defense, mutas have become pretty useless since, so there's no need to make them even worse. | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
On July 14 2012 02:25 0neder wrote: The aesthetic design is pointless if the underlying unit design is bad. Doesn't mean we can't discuss it, I personally enjoy talking about all aspects of the unit, and considering all thats happening around here is people demanding the Lurker back this seems like a fun path for discussion. | ||
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wcr.4fun
Belgium686 Posts
On July 14 2012 02:13 Zambrah wrote: + Show Spoiler + On July 14 2012 01:44 wcr.4fun wrote: I just see a huge difference in quality between the viper (or swarmhost -> in game model) and the mutalisk for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPlvLb4jBLA I really dislike both models (viper and swarm host), they're so unnatural and difficult to take seriously. A hydralisk, zergling or mutalisk on the other hand COULD be real. If anything the Viper looks like something that could legitimately exist, since it's spines are fairly realistically proportioned, all it'd need is bigger wings, really. Anyhow, the Zerg aesthetic seems to be an an unnatural natural look, which the Viper achieves well, in my opinion. The Swarm Host could be made to look a little more functional though. EDIT: The Swarm Host really needs to look more like a unit that is truly suited to subterranean activity. It looks too much like something that would curl up into a defensive posture on the outer side of the ground, rather than something that prefers to spend it's time underneath of it. Like you said, a viper could never ever fly with wings like that. Plus have you ever seen something that flies with such a massive body? I also dislike it's 'arms' and the stump at the end of it's tail has no use. The tail is to guide the wind to steer, something like that can never guide wind... The fact that it doesn't have any legs, is also quite strange, but then again the mutalisk doesn't have any either. I guess it just looks more weird on the viper. The mutalisk could sleep like a bat perhaps, but I doubt a viper would do that. It's really unnatural and it's based on an insect, which is not what zerg actually were. Zergs are really close to tyranids (some people even like to argue they stole designs from the tyranids). They're supposed to be more of a dinosaur like race, not insects. Daemonic dinosaurs versus disgusting puke inducing bugs? I prefer the first one. | ||
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JustPlay
United States211 Posts
Lurkers are fun, exciting, and help with drop protection as well as being a deterrent for ~8-10 min pushes. Swarm Host does nothing to control position unless you already have an army there. The ZvP battle report on the snow map shows just how useless they are for space control on their own. Vipers are really good, too. Pretty pumped for them. They look pretty interesting and fun despite how poorly they are used in the battle reports. Who cares if they could really fly like that? They remind me of non-western dragons with wings. edit: Why do swarm hosts and lurkers look so bulky, tall, and terrible in sc2? | ||
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Nachtwind
Germany1130 Posts
On July 14 2012 02:35 wcr.4fun wrote: Like you said, a viper could never ever fly with wings like that. Plus have you ever seen something that flies with such a massive body? I also dislike it's 'arms' and the stump at the end of it's tail has no use. The tail is to guide the wind to steer, something like that can never guide wind... It's really unnatural and it's based on an insect, which is not what zerg actually were. Zergs are really close to tyranids (some people even like to argue they stole designs from the tyranids). They're supposed to be more of a dinosaur like race, not insects. Daemonic dinosaurs versus disgusting puke inducing bugs? I prefer the first one. It has six wings. So if it can controll each wing individually it has full flying controll the tail doesn´t even matter. Look at dragonflys for example. Also the size doesn´t matter. First, again six wings, second look at bumblebee and into aerodynamics. | ||
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wcr.4fun
Belgium686 Posts
On July 14 2012 02:41 Nachtwind wrote: It has six wings. So if it can controll each wing individually it has full flying controll the tail doesn´t even matter. Look at dragonflys for example. Also the size doesn´t matter. First, again six wings, second look at bumblebee and into aerodynamics. I agree. My bad. Change of argument, dragonflys don't have a stump at the end of their tail. It would unbalance them imo. | ||
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Nachtwind
Germany1130 Posts
On July 14 2012 02:44 wcr.4fun wrote: I agree. My bad. Change of argument, dragonflys don't have a stump at the end of their tail. It would unbalance them imo. okay troll in a different place pls | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
On July 14 2012 02:35 wcr.4fun wrote: Like you said, a viper could never ever fly with wings like that. Plus have you ever seen something that flies with such a massive body? I also dislike it's 'arms' and the stump at the end of it's tail has no use. The tail is to guide the wind to steer, something like that can never guide wind... It's really unnatural and it's based on an insect, which is not what zerg actually were. Zergs are really close to tyranids (some people even like to argue they stole designs from the tyranids). They're supposed to be more of a dinosaur like race, not insects. Daemonic dinosaurs versus disgusting puke inducing bugs? I prefer the first one. The fact that the units are impactful enough to get that vomit inducing feeling makes them good, the Zerg are a race that is meant to be grotesque mutations of nature, demonic space dinosaurs just feels weird, I prefer the mutagenic insectoid aspect because of the fantastic variety in unit design we can see, but with a similar aesthetic of natural, but unnatural. To be fair, the Viper could very well be filled with gas, considering that they are a gas heavy unit and... well, its Zerg, not even to mention that Mutalisks have been shown flapping their wings in space for propulsion. :-P | ||
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An2quamaraN
Poland379 Posts
On July 12 2012 04:06 Sultan.P wrote: Lurker all the way. I mean the swarm host is just a bad imitation of the lurker and I have no idea why Blizz is so insistent on putting it in the game. What makes you think Blizzards wants to imitate Lurker in any way? If they wanted Lurker, it would be in WOL since the beginning. Swarm Host obviously is meant to serve slightly different purpose, therefore it's a different unit. You must realize HoTS is an expansion for Starcraft 2, not the game in itself, therefore the only game Blizzard is taking into consideration when designing units for hots, is Starcraft 2. Forget about Brood War, because nobody there looks at it. | ||
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