On July 07 2012 06:38 Grumbels wrote: I recall reading Team Liquid for the first time in 2009 or so and some people complained that the game had degenerated into allowing boring macro robots who are purely dependent on mechanics to dominate, case in point: Flash. It reminds me of IdrA dominating foreign competition two years ago, there were some opinions that his understanding of good macro should not allow him to win every game and that creativity should be valued higher. I would always root against IdrA too because his victories seemed so joyless, just solid execution into 'magically' having more units than the opponent, it's not so flashy. I don't know the Brood War players too well, is Flash one of those people that tends to just win games and you can't really tell why?
Flash is a versatile player and that's why he's so dangerous. When he chooses to do cheese or timing attacks, they are incredibly vicious and insanely microed. When he goes for economy and upgrades... if opponent doesn't disrupt him then his macro just overwhelms. He favors economy, but every facet of his game is equally strong.
Its not really so much that Flash played 'standard' back in the 2009 days, I wouldn't say his play was 'standard' at all in terms of strategy. Prior to his EVER OSL champ against Movie and after his DAUM OSL days, all he did was turtling his ass off. And he got taken advantage of that so bad as players would double expand and when he reaches 200/200, others economy is so far ahead that it didn't matter anymore.
But then in EVER OSL, he pretty much ForGG'd his way into winning it. He would do all those weird timing to take advantage of the popular 3 Hatch Mutalisks play still used from sAviOr. Zergs couldn't do shit against it and what was interesting is that he played nothing but Zergs on his way vs Movie. The Zerg race as a whole couldn't adapt to it at all except going for Mutalisks at every single game against him. Then vs Movie on the final, the Protoss threw away his mental edge by suiciding recalls after recalls. If Movie had won the first game, the momentum was going to be something else. In the last game, Flash bunker rushed a Fast Expandd Protoss.
Because of lack of statistics from his Protoss plays in the indies, no one was sure about his strategies beside defending against recalls/shuttle reaver plays and bunking rushing. Flash took advantage of that greatly by still taking risks in Fast Expanding as a Terran vs Protoss but he wouldn't wait until 200/200 to push out. The Protosses out there still abjured to the standard mass expanding play against him hoping of seeing turtle. But then you have to know that you are opened to weaknesses as you spread out your ground, so Flash went for agression, stop the economy before it goes rampant.
And later on, Coaches were either dodging Flash by sending some noob players or they prepared extra hard and sniped him in the Ace match.
Flash wasn't so much non-standard as he was ahead of the curve. He was always the player that was pioneering strategies forward--look at how Sea and Baby played TvZ in the middle of 2010, for example, and you see Flash's pre-muta push; look at how Fantasy played TvZ in 2011, for example, and you see Flash's mech timings from his two Bo5s vs JD in 2010.
In TvP, he pretty much standardized 1rax FE as a TvP opener, and was the first Terran to figure out how to consistently get a safe edge vs 12 nex (proxy rax bunker into fast CC with walloff).
On July 06 2012 19:36 bgx wrote: Bisu also was 2v2 player. Im not sure why are we discussing this. Top BW players were not actually "faster" they were actually slower in general. But they were talented so their slower APM was worth more due to their efficiency, experience, and strategy. BW apm(realtime) was actually inflated by about 30% compared to sc2. Points in case : Stork, Savior (200-250 apm BW) Bisu, Fanta 250-300 apm but exceling in multitasking Flash 250-300 exceling in macro Jaedong 350-400 Nada was fast like 300-400 apm. then there are many players with +300 + 400 average apm without titles etc. Movie with like 150-200 apm (one of the lowest) was actually OSL finalist.
Bw was not really about being fastest but about efficiency and smarts. Yes the lowest acceptable speed was higher than for SC2. But every progamer/ good amateur pretty much had minimum required long ago.
So if u expect that TBLS will rock your apm meters prepare to be dissapointed, well only jaedong maybe.
The strongest players in BW history barring few cases were known for mechanics as general without emphashizing speed. And known for strategy of course.
Conclusion The players who dominated BW will regain their strengths in SC2 when they get experience and proper muscle memory. They dont really have "insane APM" so they will be back on top if they get the "expertise" because that was the point of their mechanical genius. I never checked their efficient APM but im pretty sure its ridiculously high alleviating the difference of lower All-click APM. When you watch slower BW players you see almost close to 0 redundancy in their clicks, so despite lower all-click APM they were capable of playing and even dominating twice as fast (all APM) players.
That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'.
Its probably more to do with SC2 fans going omg 350 apm! And BW fans being unimpressed by that.
I think SC2 has a higher apm requirement, simply because there is less you can do with micro, strategy and positioning. That's why the top SC2 players have such high apm. When you are micro-ing units hard, your apm actually goes down, because you are trying to do irreparable damage that will compensate for your slip in macro/tech timing.
There are some freaks out there with tons of apm, HerO, Peak Bisu (used to avg ~450, he slowed down a lot to ~350, but became better as a result), Nada, Jangbi, Jaedong, Flash on occasion (his multitasking isn't that great though).
Its also true that a lot of the top BW players had very low apm like Movie, Stork, iloveoov and Savior. I don't think we will see that as much in SC2. iloveoov and Savior were massively dominant in their time, with such low apm.
? I don't get the bold part at all. Flash multitasking is pretty damn good (if not one of the best), otherwise he wouldn't have such a good TvT win ratio (TvT required an incredible amount of multitasking skills in order to compete at highest level in BW).
Compared to the top pros, he's really not.
That's why Flash tries to reduce games down to a strategic level, by doing greedy builds and having very solid build branches and timing attacks. If he had top level multitasking he wouldn't need to do that, he could just open standard.
In the SPL finals SKT was very smart in designing builds that brought Flash away from strategic play and reduced it to a multitasking game. Flash lost both of those games because he simply couldn't keep up in mechanics and got out-macroed.
Play a standard game and Flash will destroy you with strategic play, consistently cause mayhem from the get-go and he can no longer use strategy to his advantage. Its actually surprising how much weaker Flash becomes when he is under constant pressure.
I recall reading Team Liquid for the first time in 2009 or so and some people complained that the game had degenerated into allowing boring macro robots who are purely dependent on mechanics to dominate, case in point: Flash. It reminds me of IdrA dominating foreign competition two years ago, there were some opinions that his understanding of good macro should not allow him to win every game and that creativity should be valued higher. I would always root against IdrA too because his victories seemed so joyless, just solid execution into 'magically' having more units than the opponent, it's not so flashy. I don't know the Brood War players too well, is Flash one of those people that tends to just win games and you can't really tell why?
Flash isn't like Idra and he isn't weak at multitasking either. SKT won in the finals because Fantasy had a very meticulous timing attack--14cc into tank drop--and because Bisu was sent out on an extremely P>T map (there were only 2 or 3 TvTs vs nearly 30 PvPs on that map.) For a clinic on how Flash can multitask, look at this game vs Best:
Flash vs. Best 12-15-2010
Flash goes for mass mech drops vs a protoss, and manages to out-multitask Best when Best only needs to defend his main and natural.
As for comparing Flash to an SC2 player, his greatest counterpart is probably MVP. MVP, like Flash, uses mental strength to win games. When you look at how MVP and Flash make in-game decisions, you'll see that they are less "shakeable" than other players. No matter how badly or well the series has gone, they always react objectively--and they're masters of using subtle variations in a build to mess with an opponent.
When Flash or MVP play, you'll often get the feeling that the opponent thinks they're behind from minute 1--that the opponent is the one who is afraid to go toe-to-toe with Flash or MVP on an even footing, and inevitably they start cutting corners to get ahead--and then Flash punishes them.
As for comparing Flash to an SC2 player, his greatest counterpart is probably MVP. MVP, like Flash, uses mental strength to win games. When you look at how MVP and Flash make in-game decisions, you'll see that they are less "shakeable" than other players. No matter how badly or well the series has gone, they always react objectively--and they're masters of using subtle variations in a build to mess with an opponent.
When Flash or MVP play, you'll often get the feeling that the opponent thinks they're behind from minute 1--that the opponent is the one who is afraid to go toe-to-toe with Flash or MVP on an even footing, and inevitably they start cutting corners to get ahead--and then Flash punishes them.
I predict you will now be lynched for comparing any SC2 Progamer to Flash for any reason.
As for comparing Flash to an SC2 player, his greatest counterpart is probably MVP. MVP, like Flash, uses mental strength to win games. When you look at how MVP and Flash make in-game decisions, you'll see that they are less "shakeable" than other players. No matter how badly or well the series has gone, they always react objectively--and they're masters of using subtle variations in a build to mess with an opponent.
When Flash or MVP play, you'll often get the feeling that the opponent thinks they're behind from minute 1--that the opponent is the one who is afraid to go toe-to-toe with Flash or MVP on an even footing, and inevitably they start cutting corners to get ahead--and then Flash punishes them.
I predict you will now be lynched for comparing any SC2 Progamer to Flash for any reason.
On July 07 2012 10:37 Shady Sands wrote: When Flash or MVP play, you'll often get the feeling that the opponent thinks they're behind from minute 1--that the opponent is the one who is afraid to go toe-to-toe with Flash or MVP on an even footing, and inevitably they start cutting corners to get ahead--and then Flash punishes them.
To us newbies it may look like cutting corners but really it is just optimizing builds. Thats why they sometimes look stupid when they lose. Flash's gameplan is like a cpu running. Its clean crisp and sleek compared to a abacus but if you do something stupid like spelling water on them then ofc the abacus looks like the top performer.
On July 07 2012 06:38 Grumbels wrote: I recall reading Team Liquid for the first time in 2009 or so and some people complained that the game had degenerated into allowing boring macro robots who are purely dependent on mechanics to dominate, case in point: Flash. It reminds me of IdrA dominating foreign competition two years ago, there were some opinions that his understanding of good macro should not allow him to win every game and that creativity should be valued higher. I would always root against IdrA too because his victories seemed so joyless, just solid execution into 'magically' having more units than the opponent, it's not so flashy. I don't know the Brood War players too well, is Flash one of those people that tends to just win games and you can't really tell why?
Flash is a versatile player and that's why he's so dangerous. When he chooses to do cheese or timing attacks, they are incredibly vicious and insanely microed. When he goes for economy and upgrades... if opponent doesn't disrupt him then his macro just overwhelms. He favors economy, but every facet of his game is equally strong.
Its not really so much that Flash played 'standard' back in the 2009 days, I wouldn't say his play was 'standard' at all in terms of strategy. Prior to his EVER OSL champ against Movie and after his DAUM OSL days, all he did was turtling his ass off. And he got taken advantage of that so bad as players would double expand and when he reaches 200/200, others economy is so far ahead that it didn't matter anymore.
But then in EVER OSL, he pretty much ForGG'd his way into winning it. He would do all those weird timing to take advantage of the popular 3 Hatch Mutalisks play still used from sAviOr. Zergs couldn't do shit against it and what was interesting is that he played nothing but Zergs on his way vs Movie. The Zerg race as a whole couldn't adapt to it at all except going for Mutalisks at every single game against him. Then vs Movie on the final, the Protoss threw away his mental edge by suiciding recalls after recalls. If Movie had won the first game, the momentum was going to be something else. In the last game, Flash bunker rushed a Fast Expandd Protoss.
Because of lack of statistics from his Protoss plays in the indies, no one was sure about his strategies beside defending against recalls/shuttle reaver plays and bunking rushing. Flash took advantage of that greatly by still taking risks in Fast Expanding as a Terran vs Protoss but he wouldn't wait until 200/200 to push out. The Protosses out there still abjured to the standard mass expanding play against him hoping of seeing turtle. But then you have to know that you are opened to weaknesses as you spread out your ground, so Flash went for agression, stop the economy before it goes rampant.
And later on, Coaches were either dodging Flash by sending some noob players or they prepared extra hard and sniped him in the Ace match.
Flash wasn't so much non-standard as he was ahead of the curve. He was always the player that was pioneering strategies forward--look at how Sea and Baby played TvZ in the middle of 2010, for example, and you see Flash's pre-muta push; look at how Fantasy played TvZ in 2011, for example, and you see Flash's mech timings from his two Bo5s vs JD in 2010.
In TvP, he pretty much standardized 1rax FE as a TvP opener, and was the first Terran to figure out how to consistently get a safe edge vs 12 nex (proxy rax bunker into fast CC with walloff).
On July 06 2012 19:36 bgx wrote: Bisu also was 2v2 player. Im not sure why are we discussing this. Top BW players were not actually "faster" they were actually slower in general. But they were talented so their slower APM was worth more due to their efficiency, experience, and strategy. BW apm(realtime) was actually inflated by about 30% compared to sc2. Points in case : Stork, Savior (200-250 apm BW) Bisu, Fanta 250-300 apm but exceling in multitasking Flash 250-300 exceling in macro Jaedong 350-400 Nada was fast like 300-400 apm. then there are many players with +300 + 400 average apm without titles etc. Movie with like 150-200 apm (one of the lowest) was actually OSL finalist.
Bw was not really about being fastest but about efficiency and smarts. Yes the lowest acceptable speed was higher than for SC2. But every progamer/ good amateur pretty much had minimum required long ago.
So if u expect that TBLS will rock your apm meters prepare to be dissapointed, well only jaedong maybe.
The strongest players in BW history barring few cases were known for mechanics as general without emphashizing speed. And known for strategy of course.
Conclusion The players who dominated BW will regain their strengths in SC2 when they get experience and proper muscle memory. They dont really have "insane APM" so they will be back on top if they get the "expertise" because that was the point of their mechanical genius. I never checked their efficient APM but im pretty sure its ridiculously high alleviating the difference of lower All-click APM. When you watch slower BW players you see almost close to 0 redundancy in their clicks, so despite lower all-click APM they were capable of playing and even dominating twice as fast (all APM) players.
That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'.
Its probably more to do with SC2 fans going omg 350 apm! And BW fans being unimpressed by that.
I think SC2 has a higher apm requirement, simply because there is less you can do with micro, strategy and positioning. That's why the top SC2 players have such high apm. When you are micro-ing units hard, your apm actually goes down, because you are trying to do irreparable damage that will compensate for your slip in macro/tech timing.
There are some freaks out there with tons of apm, HerO, Peak Bisu (used to avg ~450, he slowed down a lot to ~350, but became better as a result), Nada, Jangbi, Jaedong, Flash on occasion (his multitasking isn't that great though).
Its also true that a lot of the top BW players had very low apm like Movie, Stork, iloveoov and Savior. I don't think we will see that as much in SC2. iloveoov and Savior were massively dominant in their time, with such low apm.
? I don't get the bold part at all. Flash multitasking is pretty damn good (if not one of the best), otherwise he wouldn't have such a good TvT win ratio (TvT required an incredible amount of multitasking skills in order to compete at highest level in BW).
Compared to the top pros, he's really not.
That's why Flash tries to reduce games down to a strategic level, by doing greedy builds and having very solid build branches and timing attacks. If he had top level multitasking he wouldn't need to do that, he could just open standard.
In the SPL finals SKT was very smart in designing builds that brought Flash away from strategic play and reduced it to a multitasking game. Flash lost both of those games because he simply couldn't keep up in mechanics and got out-macroed.
Play a standard game and Flash will destroy you with strategic play, consistently cause mayhem from the get-go and he can no longer use strategy to his advantage. Its actually surprising how much weaker Flash becomes when he is under constant pressure.
I recall reading Team Liquid for the first time in 2009 or so and some people complained that the game had degenerated into allowing boring macro robots who are purely dependent on mechanics to dominate, case in point: Flash. It reminds me of IdrA dominating foreign competition two years ago, there were some opinions that his understanding of good macro should not allow him to win every game and that creativity should be valued higher. I would always root against IdrA too because his victories seemed so joyless, just solid execution into 'magically' having more units than the opponent, it's not so flashy. I don't know the Brood War players too well, is Flash one of those people that tends to just win games and you can't really tell why?
Flash isn't like Idra and he isn't weak at multitasking either. SKT won in the finals because Fantasy had a very meticulous timing attack--14cc into tank drop--and because Bisu was sent out on an extremely P>T map (there were only 2 or 3 TvTs vs nearly 30 PvPs on that map.) For a clinic on how Flash can multitask, look at this game vs Best:
Flash vs. Best 12-15-2010 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmBBt1Waxcc Flash goes for mass mech drops vs a protoss, and manages to out-multitask Best when Best only needs to defend his main and natural.
As for comparing Flash to an SC2 player, his greatest counterpart is probably MVP. MVP, like Flash, uses mental strength to win games. When you look at how MVP and Flash make in-game decisions, you'll see that they are less "shakeable" than other players. No matter how badly or well the series has gone, they always react objectively--and they're masters of using subtle variations in a build to mess with an opponent.
When Flash or MVP play, you'll often get the feeling that the opponent thinks they're behind from minute 1--that the opponent is the one who is afraid to go toe-to-toe with Flash or MVP on an even footing, and inevitably they start cutting corners to get ahead--and then Flash punishes them.
SKT won in the finals because Fantasy had a very meticulous timing attack--14cc into tank drop
What are you smoking? Re-watch the vod rofl.
--and because Bisu was sent out on an extremely P>T map (there were only 2 or 3 TvTs vs nearly 30 PvPs on that map.) For a clinic on how Flash can multitask, look at this game vs Best
Best doesn't have good multitask either.
Let me guess, the other times Bisu dismantled Flash with crazy multitask was also on extremely P>T maps. Ok maybe Neo Medusa and Aztec were P>T, but that doesn't mean Bisu should be able to beat Flash as convincingly as he did, especially considering PvT is Bisu's weakest MU.
As for comparing Flash to an SC2 player, his greatest counterpart is probably MVP. MVP, like Flash, uses mental strength to win games. When you look at how MVP and Flash make in-game decisions, you'll see that they are less "shakeable" than other players. No matter how badly or well the series has gone, they always react objectively--and they're masters of using subtle variations in a build to mess with an opponent.
No way, when things don't go Flash's way he breaks down completely. Flash's silvers came from losing the psychological game, game 4 against Jaedong after the power outage, or when Flash lost 3 games in a row vs Effort, or losing to ForGG 3 games in a row. Those were all situations where Flash just went on major tilt and took ridiculously unnecessary risks.
Flash plays BW like a poker game. He is always gambling and taking much bigger chances than other players, and there will be times when he will try to be unpredictable and get felted. That's why he's not as consistent as Bisu in Proleague. However his genius lies in the fact that this happens so rarely, games seem to magically go Flash's way. Flash can visualize a Bo5 from beginning to end, and make it play out exactly as he predicts. If Flash relied on his mechanics, he would never have won an OSL final. It has been said in several coach interviews that Flash usually sets out an entire gameplan, and he tends to play badly when things don't go exactly as predicted.
When Flash lost against MVP, again, it was a game where it was reduced down to multitask. MVP simply won through mechanics, reducing Flash's ability to leverage strategy against him. MVP and Flash are polar opposites.
I'd say the least "shakeable" players are Bisu, Jaedong and Effort. Effort for his LLWWW against Flash in an OSL final, and Jaedong for his consistent reverse all-kills and the nickname LWWW Zerg, and Bisu for being able to be so calm and shoulder a huge amount of responsibility against insurmountable odds (eg Savior MSL and Flash PL finals).
On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote: That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'.
DRG had 650ish sc2 apm at MLG... which is about 900 Brood war APM, so...
I think you read some statistics wrong. Or you mean spike apm, which imho is weirdly calculated in sc2 because ive seen many people already beating July BW record multiple times during normal sc2 micro.
I'm talking about a couple minute long spike late game where he was multitasking and microing a few battles at once.
On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote: That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'.
DRG had 650ish sc2 apm at MLG... which is about 900 Brood war APM, so...
I think you read some statistics wrong. Or you mean spike apm, which imho is weirdly calculated in sc2 because ive seen many people already beating July BW record multiple times during normal sc2 micro.
I'm talking about a couple minute long spike late game where he was multitasking and microing a few battles at once.
No way, when things don't go Flash's way he breaks down completely. Flash's silvers came from losing the psychological game, game 4 against Jaedong after the power outage, or when Flash lost 3 games in a row vs Effort, or losing to ForGG 3 games in a row. Those were all situations where Flash just went on major tilt and took ridiculously unnecessary risks.
Flash plays BW like a poker game. He is always gambling and taking much bigger chances than other players, and there will be times when he will try to be unpredictable and get felted. That's why he's not as consistent as Bisu in Proleague. However his genius lies in the fact that this happens so rarely, games seem to magically go Flash's way. Flash can visualize a Bo5 from beginning to end, and make it play out exactly as he predicts. If Flash relied on his mechanics, he would never have won an OSL final. It has been said in several coach interviews that Flash usually sets out an entire gameplan, and he tends to play badly when things don't go exactly as predicted.
When Flash lost against MVP, again, it was a game where it was reduced down to multitask. MVP simply won through mechanics, reducing Flash's ability to leverage strategy against him. MVP and Flash are polar opposites.
I'd say the least "shakeable" players are Bisu, Jaedong and Effort. Effort for his LLWWW against Flash in an OSL final, and Jaedong for his consistent reverse all-kills and the nickname LWWW Zerg, and Bisu for being able to be so calm and shoulder a huge amount of responsibility against insurmountable odds (eg Savior MSL and Flash PL finals).
Well, i want the stuff you are smoking.-) Srsly, flash is one of the most reactionary players in sc. sure, he has a gameplan for a best of 5, everyone has, but he is not one of the players who will stick to it even if he scouts that his opponent build will counter his build. and it is a bold statement to say that he would never won an osl final only relying on his mechanics (watch the one vs movie, even vs effort his mechanics looked better (esp. game 2)).
i also disagree that effort and bisu are the least shakeables players. did you watch the osl finals back then? effort was tilted after being behind 0:2, going for extremely risky fast muta build in game 3. he won in the end, so it's tough to argue against it, but i haven't had the impression he kept his calm and wasn't shaken at all.
and i don't get your examples as to why bisu is one of the least shakeable players. in the finals vs. savior he was the clear underdog and could play without pressure, because he had nothing to lose. sure, he won the ace match in the last spl finals, but why wasn't skt sending him out in other ace matches in proleague finals (vs. kt or oz), when he is such a clutch player? and what about his osl performances in general. the most prestigious individual sc tournament and he always failed hard.
No way, when things don't go Flash's way he breaks down completely. Flash's silvers came from losing the psychological game, game 4 against Jaedong after the power outage, or when Flash lost 3 games in a row vs Effort, or losing to ForGG 3 games in a row. Those were all situations where Flash just went on major tilt and took ridiculously unnecessary risks.
Flash plays BW like a poker game. He is always gambling and taking much bigger chances than other players, and there will be times when he will try to be unpredictable and get felted. That's why he's not as consistent as Bisu in Proleague. However his genius lies in the fact that this happens so rarely, games seem to magically go Flash's way. Flash can visualize a Bo5 from beginning to end, and make it play out exactly as he predicts. If Flash relied on his mechanics, he would never have won an OSL final. It has been said in several coach interviews that Flash usually sets out an entire gameplan, and he tends to play badly when things don't go exactly as predicted.
When Flash lost against MVP, again, it was a game where it was reduced down to multitask. MVP simply won through mechanics, reducing Flash's ability to leverage strategy against him. MVP and Flash are polar opposites.
I'd say the least "shakeable" players are Bisu, Jaedong and Effort. Effort for his LLWWW against Flash in an OSL final, and Jaedong for his consistent reverse all-kills and the nickname LWWW Zerg, and Bisu for being able to be so calm and shoulder a huge amount of responsibility against insurmountable odds (eg Savior MSL and Flash PL finals).
Well, i want the stuff you are smoking.-) Srsly, flash is one of the most reactionary players in sc. sure, he has a gameplan for a best of 5, everyone has, but he is not one of the players who will stick to it even if he scouts that his opponent build will counter his build. and it is a bold statement to say that he would never won an osl final only relying on his mechanics (watch the one vs movie, even vs effort his mechanics looked better (esp. game 2)).
i also disagree that effort and bisu are the least shakeables players. did you watch the osl finals back then? effort was tilted after being behind 0:2, going for extremely risky fast muta build in game 3. he won in the end, so it's tough to argue against it, but i haven't had the impression he kept his calm and wasn't shaken at all.
and i don't get your examples as to why bisu is one of the least shakeable players. in the finals vs. savior he was the clear underdog and could play without pressure, because he had nothing to lose. sure, he won the ace match in the last spl finals, but why wasn't skt sending him out in other ace matches in proleague finals (vs. kt or oz), when he is such a clutch player? and what about his osl performances in general. the most prestigious individual sc tournament and he always failed hard.
Effort lost to solid play in the first two games. Flash just played it safe and played the right builds for the maps. Mental strength had nothing to do with it, Effort simply got outplayed. And if Flash just maintained that, he would have won 3:0. Then Flash started becoming over-confident, and went down an endless spiral of tilt.
Effort on tilt would be playing too safe after losing 0:2. In this situation the smart thing to do is to take big risks because what he was doing so far obviously wasn't working. Game 3 was an extremely smart strategy. Setting up a second hatch close to Flash's base so that the mutas arrive quicker, is not something you can do without 1. Balls of steel, 2. A lot of metagame analysis. How many times as anyone done that in a Grand Final? Game 4 Effort used a weird overlord scouting path because he suspected a proxy barracks, and he ended up scouting it. Again, that's not tilt, that's being completely on top of the metagame. Game 5 Flash went on extra tilt and threw the game.
Flash could have played safe in game 4 and 5, but he instead took unnecessary risks because he was too eager (a.k.a tilt), he wasn't in a state of mind that would allow him to play the next games effectively. He was so thrown off by game 4, that he went for 14cc in game 5 on a 2 player map, even though he knew that Effort had a good handle on the metagame and there was a high chance of cheese.
Going 14CC in game 5, was like trying to bluff a calling-station, if Flash had come to his senses, he would have known 14CC was pointless because he was perfectly capable of winning with the same build he used in game 1. It would be a different story if it was against Jaedong or ZerO, but this was Effort. Also Effort's ling micro in game 5 was sublime, if he was on tilt if would he just attacked, but he kept his cool and made Flash's marines and SCVs dance around like idiots and capitalised once the marines/SCVs were out of position.
Bisu has won all his ace matches against Flash. The reason why Bisu wasn't sent out for ACE was because Best's PvT was better, however SKT has realised that in a finals there are a lot more variables. Best just never seemed to be able to beat Flash in the finals, and that's why Bisu was made to prepare instead, with Fantasy as a backup. Both in the SPL and WL finals, Bisu has beaten Flash with some ridiculously clutch play. Keep in mind that Flash has a much better handle on TvP than Bisu does.
The only explanation for this is Bisu's ability to remain level headed under enormous pressure, it has been said that the PL finals is more nerve racking than a starleague because you have to shoulder a lot more responsibility. I think nerves were affecting Flash more than Bisu in both finals, leading Flash to make some very questionable mistakes. Flash was even crying at the end of the PL finals, although I admire his humbleness, I think he's far from being the strongest mentally.
Bisu loses in the prelims not because of his mental strength, but because he just seems to play badly against cheesy zergs. He is still the most successful Protoss in history.
Playing against a very dominant player creates the opposite effect. Players lose to Flash in grand finals because they are already on tilt under the enormous pressure of having to face such a good player. While Flash can rest a lot easier knowing he already has a bunch of medals under his belt and he will be playing a mediocre player. So many players have just crumbled under the pressure, like ZerO and Movie. The only players that haven't are Effort and Jaedong. No one has beaten Flash 3-0 in a grand final, neither had anyone against Savior either.
Effort lost to solid play in the first two games. Flash just played it safe and played the right builds for the maps. Mental strength had nothing to do with it, Effort simply got outplayed. And if Flash just maintained that, he would have won 3:0. Then Flash started becoming over-confident, and went down an endless spiral of tilt.
overconfidence and on tilt is something completely different, but yeah flash chose the wrong build in game 4.
Effort on tilt would be playing too safe after losing 0:2. In this situation the smart thing to do is to take big risks because what he was doing so far obviously wasn't working. Game 3 was an extremely smart strategy. Setting up a second hatch close to Flash's base so that the mutas arrive quicker, is not something you can do without 1. Balls of steel, 2. A lot of metagame analysis. How many times as anyone done that in a Grand Final? Game 4 Effort used a weird overlord scouting path because he suspected a proxy barracks, and he ended up scouting it. Again, that's not tilt, that's being completely on top of the metagame. Game 5 Flash went on extra tilt and threw the game.
it worked, so you have every right to call it smart, but i think it was more of a desperated move and had nothing to do with analysing the previous games and come to the conclusion this fast muta build will work.
Going 14CC in game 5, was like trying to bluff a calling-station, if Flash had come to his senses, he would have known 14CC was pointless because he was perfectly capable of winning with the same build he used in game 1. It would be a different story if it was against Jaedong or ZerO, but this was Effort. Also Effort's ling micro in game 5 was sublime, if he was on tilt if would he just attacked, but he kept his cool and made Flash's marines and SCVs dance around like idiots and capitalised once the marines/SCVs were out of position.
i am with you here, kind of at least, because i think flash was a bit shaken after being up 2:0 and suddenly it is 2:2, but still this was one final out of many and in 6 other finals he won. i can't see how you win so many titles without mental strength.
Bisu has won all his ace matches against Flash. The reason why Bisu wasn't sent out for ACE was because Best's PvT was better, however SKT has realised that in a finals there are a lot more variables. Best just never seemed to be able to beat Flash in the finals, and that's why Bisu was made to prepare instead, with Fantasy as a backup. Both in the SPL and WL finals, Bisu has beaten Flash with some ridiculously clutch play. Keep in mind that Flash has a much better handle on TvP than Bisu does.
i doubt that players really care a lot about winner's league meaning no pressure situation here. regarding proleague finals, bisu handled the pressure one time and he played a great game, one of the best in my oponion, but i still don't see, why not sending him in other finals when he is so clutch and confident in his ability. kt would send flash in every proleague final ace match, even if the map is highly unfavoured for terran and stats would have a better shot on paper, because the believe in flash's ability to handle the pressure and the same is not true for skt's trust in bisu obviously.
Bisu loses in the prelims not because of his mental strength, but because he just seems to play badly against cheesy zergs. He is still the most successful Protoss in history.
Playing against a very dominant player creates the opposite effect. Players lose to Flash in grand finals because they are already on tilt under the enormous pressure of having to face such a good player. While Flash can rest a lot easier knowing he already has a bunch of medals under his belt and he will be playing a mediocre player. So many players have just crumbled under the pressure, like ZerO and Movie. The only players that haven't are Effort and Jaedong. No one has beaten Flash 3-0 in a grand final, neither had anyone against Savior either.
he lost not only prelims, but also in semifinals etc. and he did this not once but many times. considering bisus play in proleague, you would've expected him to win at least one osl, but instead he never made the finals. this has nothing to do with being cheesed out all the time, but perhaps with nerve issues. i don't wanna take anything away from bisu. he is one of the greatest protoss players for sure and the most accomplished one, but even if it is speculative from my part as well as from yours, i don't think he is such a clutch player. flash, jaedong: yes, bisu: no.-)
Effort lost to solid play in the first two games. Flash just played it safe and played the right builds for the maps. Mental strength had nothing to do with it, Effort simply got outplayed. And if Flash just maintained that, he would have won 3:0. Then Flash started becoming over-confident, and went down an endless spiral of tilt.
overconfidence and on tilt is something completely different, but yeah flash chose the wrong build in game 4.
Effort on tilt would be playing too safe after losing 0:2. In this situation the smart thing to do is to take big risks because what he was doing so far obviously wasn't working. Game 3 was an extremely smart strategy. Setting up a second hatch close to Flash's base so that the mutas arrive quicker, is not something you can do without 1. Balls of steel, 2. A lot of metagame analysis. How many times as anyone done that in a Grand Final? Game 4 Effort used a weird overlord scouting path because he suspected a proxy barracks, and he ended up scouting it. Again, that's not tilt, that's being completely on top of the metagame. Game 5 Flash went on extra tilt and threw the game.
it worked, so you have every right to call it smart, but i think it was more of a desperated move and had nothing to do with analysing the previous games and come to the conclusion this fast muta build will work.
Going 14CC in game 5, was like trying to bluff a calling-station, if Flash had come to his senses, he would have known 14CC was pointless because he was perfectly capable of winning with the same build he used in game 1. It would be a different story if it was against Jaedong or ZerO, but this was Effort. Also Effort's ling micro in game 5 was sublime, if he was on tilt if would he just attacked, but he kept his cool and made Flash's marines and SCVs dance around like idiots and capitalised once the marines/SCVs were out of position.
i am with you here, kind of at least, because i think flash was a bit shaken after being up 2:0 and suddenly it is 2:2, but still this was one final out of many and in 6 other finals he won. i can't see how you win so many titles without mental strength.
Bisu has won all his ace matches against Flash. The reason why Bisu wasn't sent out for ACE was because Best's PvT was better, however SKT has realised that in a finals there are a lot more variables. Best just never seemed to be able to beat Flash in the finals, and that's why Bisu was made to prepare instead, with Fantasy as a backup. Both in the SPL and WL finals, Bisu has beaten Flash with some ridiculously clutch play. Keep in mind that Flash has a much better handle on TvP than Bisu does.
i doubt that players really care a lot about winner's league meaning no pressure situation here. regarding proleague finals, bisu handled the pressure one time and he played a great game, one of the best in my oponion, but i still don't see, why not sending him in other finals when he is so clutch and confident in his ability. kt would send flash in every proleague final ace match, even if the map is highly unfavoured for terran and stats would have a better shot on paper, because the believe in flash's ability to handle the pressure and the same is not true for skt's trust in bisu obviously.
Bisu loses in the prelims not because of his mental strength, but because he just seems to play badly against cheesy zergs. He is still the most successful Protoss in history.
Playing against a very dominant player creates the opposite effect. Players lose to Flash in grand finals because they are already on tilt under the enormous pressure of having to face such a good player. While Flash can rest a lot easier knowing he already has a bunch of medals under his belt and he will be playing a mediocre player. So many players have just crumbled under the pressure, like ZerO and Movie. The only players that haven't are Effort and Jaedong. No one has beaten Flash 3-0 in a grand final, neither had anyone against Savior either.
he lost not only prelims, but also in semifinals etc. and he did this not once but many times. considering bisus play in proleague, you would've expected him to win at least one osl, but instead he never made the finals. this has nothing to do with being cheesed out all the time, but perhaps with nerve issues. i don't wanna take anything away from bisu. he is one of the greatest protoss players for sure and the most accomplished one, but even if it is speculative from my part as well as from yours, i don't think he is such a clutch player. flash, jaedong: yes, bisu: no.-)
Over-confidence and tilt are not mutually exclusive. If you are in a psychological condition where you are playing quite sub-optimally because of it, that's tilt. When a poker player blows his bankroll because he gets over-confident and starts playing too risky, is that over-confidence or tilt? Its both.
The issue is that Bisu never lost because of mental strength though. Bisu lost the semi-finals (I presume you are talking about Bisu vs Flash), because he just got outplayed. And he loses the prelims because he gets outplayed. Its interesting how when Bisu is picked for the ace match, that he suddenly goes super sayan mode and wins. Also its been mentioned in several player interviews (Bisu and Flash both mentioned it I'm pretty sure) that the PL finals is much more important to them and more nerve wracking than starleague.
If you compared Flash's PvT to Bisu's PvT you would see why. If you only saw the statistics, you might as well have just thrown the game if SKT was thinking of fielding Bisu against Flash. It is much easier for KT to field Flash, than SKT for Bisu.
Despite this, SKT has fielded Bisu twice for the ACE match against Flash and Bisu has won both of them. SKT believed that given enough preparation nerves wouldn't matter so much, Best had beaten Flash quite a few times convincingly, but his decision making went out the window once he was in the ACE match and Flash just ran rings around him. KT had it right, SKT had it wrong, and they realised it after Best lost 2 ACE matches against Flash, afterwards they put much more weight on mental strength. The reason Bisu was prepared for the last PL final, it was mentioned simply because of his ability in a high pressure environment. Bisu has an amazing ability to make good decisions in tight situations, Best doesn't.
Given the fact that Flash had a much much higher chance of winning, it is suffice to say that the determining factor in both finals was mental strength. It just had to be, if both of them were level headed, Flash should have won both games, instead Flash made some really bad errors in both games and got crushed. This was very unlike the Flash we saw in a normal game.
I would call a desperation move, two 4 pools in a row . It is likely that Effort had planned to do that build depending on the starting positions. If you think it was an act of desperation, explain feigning weakness by not building sunkens with an aggressive build with the pre-emptive ling flank. I can't stress the pre-emptiveness enough, to me that smelled a lot like Saviors doing though heh, you can pretty much see that it was a prepared build.
Effort also didn't do a desperation move in game 4, he kept his cool knowing that Flash might go for the cheese. Game 5, not a desperation move either, he went gas before pool. If Flash had gone for a bunker rush, Effort would have lost.
Some side analysis for game 5, showing why Effort was perfectly level headed. + Show Spoiler +
Lets break down the decision making process for game 5.
1. Effort knows that there is a high probability Flash is not going to bunker rush twice in a row. 2. Flash suspects that Effort is not going to play "strategic" on the last game because its too risky, Flash gambles on a 14CC allowing him to give him a much higher % win chance over a normal 12 hatch. This would have been the right metagame decision against Jaedong or ZerO, he fails to account that Effort is much more aggressive player. 3. Effort predicts that Flash is going to either do a greedy build, or go mech like in game 1, or both. 4. Efforts builds are reduced to early game aggression simply because it is a T favored map, and safe play will only lead to a loss as a well set up tank line is insanely hard to break on Matchpoint. This also means that it is unlikely Flash will go bio. 5. The right decision at this point is 2 hatch muta/ling all-in with early gas as it beats both. Which he did. You call it a desperation move, I call it making the right decision.
Its the highest % move as far as I can see, where as Flash went for a much lower % move than was necessary. For Flash, the highest % move would have been to play safe and force late-game. 1 rax or 1 fact fe like game 1 would have been fine, Flash had no reason to try and risk an economic lead early on, it was simply not required.
You have to take risks in the finals, but Flash often takes bigger risks than necessary, its like he can't control himself sometimes and throws winnable games on low percentages when he had it in the bag. Two of his silvers were practically due to thrown games. Game 4 against Jaedong, where he looked very upset before the game, and lost because he didn't make turrets, and games 4-5 against Effort. Yes Flash has won a lot of golds, but considering his experience, he should have gone to the last game against JD, and won the series against Effort. That said, his ability to mindgame under normal situations, is still worlds beyond the rest.
Flash is just so well prepared for the finals that it doesn't matter what his mental state is compared to others. Flash brings games down to a strategic level. You simply can't make a mistake if you go 14CC into 4 fact pure goliath, when you aren't being pressured at all. Once those goliaths had left his base, he could have gone for a piss break and still have won. That build is so simple to execute, that even a D+ player could have done the same thing and beaten Jaedong. Same for all his games in that series, just 14CC into cut-scvs and a-move. (I'm being facetious here but you know what I mean)
There was no decision making that was necessary that could have been affected by mental instability. Nerves don't affect you when you are preparing a build, and if you a preparing a build that will net you a win where nerves can't even affect you, then even better. Its actually really scary how he knew exactly how Jaedong would react. Flash's genius lies in the fact that he had the finals won before it even started
Effort never made a decision mistake from game 3 to game 5, he was playing a perfect series at that point, which almost made it look like 1-2 was just a warm up. You can't make good decisions like that when you are on tilt. Lets contrast this to the following finals against Jaedong, who got completely smashed 3:0 by 14CC, which Effort had no problems punishing. Jaedong looked visibly frustrated by game 3. Effort just held the CJ face and did what he needed to do.
1. I think you need to stop reading stupid analysis about BW written by sc2 fans and read stuff written by BW fans.
On July 07 2012 21:23 dude_2 wrote:
i doubt that players really care a lot about winner's league meaning no pressure situation here. regarding proleague finals, bisu handled the pressure one time and he played a great game, one of the best in my oponion, but i still don't see, why not sending him in other finals when he is so clutch and confident in his ability. kt would send flash in every proleague final ace match, even if the map is highly unfavoured for terran and stats would have a better shot on paper, because the believe in flash's ability to handle the pressure and the same is not true for skt's trust in bisu obviously.
winner league contributes towards play-off points. I have never once heard a pro said individual league is more important, in fact they all say that proleague is most important. Pretty no brainer why if you think about it.
On July 07 2012 18:58 dude_2 wrote:
i also disagree that effort and bisu are the least shakeables players. did you watch the osl finals back then? effort was tilted after being behind 0:2, going for extremely risky fast muta build in game 3. he won in the end, so it's tough to argue against it, but i haven't had the impression he kept his calm and wasn't shaken at all.
I disagree with sluggaslamoo on the flash tilting part. If you think about it the last thing your opponent would expect you to do when your up 2 is to play risky. Flash just got out meta. In thier last few matches effort has a good record against Flash. Flash and effort use to train witheach other a lot to surpass Jaedong, if anyone knows how to beat Flash it is effort. Right after Korean air Flash went 14cc every single freakin game against JD.
On July 07 2012 18:58 dude_2 wrote: he lost not only prelims, but also in semifinals etc. and he did this not once but many times. considering bisus play in proleague, you would've expected him to win at least one osl, but instead he never made the finals. this has nothing to do with being cheesed out all the time, but perhaps with nerve issues. i don't wanna take anything away from bisu. he is one of the greatest protoss players for sure and the most accomplished one, but even if it is speculative from my part as well as from yours, i don't think he is such a clutch player. flash, jaedong: yes, bisu: no.-)
lawl
and it is a bold statement to say that he would never won an osl final only relying on his mechanics (watch the one vs movie, even vs effort his mechanics looked better (esp. game 2)).
Do you even have an idea of how a JvF usually goes? Jaedong on 3 gas is pretty much unbreakable even for flash most of the time. Flash won because he knows how to deny the 3rd gas or he makes JD go through hell just to get it. Flash would never win an OSL just on mechanics.
Over-confidence and tilt are not mutually exclusive. If you are in a psychological condition where you are playing quite sub-optimally because of it, that's tilt. When a poker player blows his bankroll because he gets over-confident and starts playing too risky, is that over-confidence or tilt? Its both.
hm, if you defining tilt like this then you're right, but when a poker player is on tilt he plays too risky, because he is angry or irritated and not arrogant. the outcome of overconfidence or tilt is most of the times the same though.
Flash is just so well prepared for the finals that it doesn't matter what his mental state is compared to others. Flash brings games down to a strategic level. You simply can't make a mistake if you go 14CC into 4 fact pure goliath, when you aren't being pressured at all. Once those goliaths had left his base, he could have gone for a piss break and still have won. That build is so simple to execute, that even a D+ player could have done the same thing and beaten Jaedong. Same for all his games in that series, just 14CC into cut-scvs and a-move. (I'm being facetious here but you know what I mean)
you are right about this series. flash came better prepared, but at the finals with the power outage it was the complete opposite. jaedong was prepared for flash's one rax expand build with his early double evo chamber. you are also right that flash was on tilt in game 4, but who wouldn't after this controversy and don't forget he was a pretty young back then.
I think you need to stop reading stupid analysis about BW written by sc2 fans and read stuff written by BW fans.
i watched the games, you too?
winner league contributes towards play-off points. I have never once heard a pro said individual league is more important, in fact they all say that proleague is most important. Pretty no brainer why if you think about it.
i've never said that proleague finals is not the most important tournament for sc players, but winners league is a format within proleague, exists (now existed) just for 2/3 years, and is definitely not as highly valued from the players as an osl title. i am also pretty sure you got no points for proleague from the winners playoffs, only from the winners league round.
[quote]I disagree with sluggaslamoo on the flash tilting part. If you think about it the last thing your opponent would expect you to do when your up 2 is to play risky. Flash just got out meta. In thier last few matches effort has a good record against Flash. Flash and effort use to train witheach other a lot to surpass Jaedong, if anyone knows how to beat Flash it is effort. Right after Korean air Flash went 14cc every single freakin game against JD. /quote] i agree here with you
[quote]On July 07 2012 18:58 dude_2 wrote: he lost not only prelims, but also in semifinals etc. and he did this not once but many times. considering bisus play in proleague, you would've expected him to win at least one osl, but instead he never made the finals. this has nothing to do with being cheesed out all the time, but perhaps with nerve issues. i don't wanna take anything away from bisu. he is one of the greatest protoss players for sure and the most accomplished one, but even if it is speculative from my part as well as from yours, i don't think he is such a clutch player. flash, jaedong: yes, bisu: no.-)
lawl
[/quote] what is funny about this? it is rather sad that bisu could never bring his a game in the osl
[quote]Do you even have an idea of how a JvF usually goes? Jaedong on 3 gas is pretty much unbreakable even for flash most of the time. Flash won because he knows how to deny the 3rd gas or he makes JD go through hell just to get it. Flash would never win an OSL just on mechanics.[/quote]
indeed i do. and you are right, you don't need any mechanics to deny the third of a player of jaedongs caliber. -(
Just "watching the games too" has absolutely nothing to do with your understanding of it. I agree with samurai that you've been watching or reading too much BW analysis written or spoken by SC2 people.
You need years on BW to understand what the pros are doing. This is not some ego-statement or a variable that can be interpreted in many ways. Unless you play thousands of BW games yourself, obs even more thousands, and watch years worth of VODs from tournaments and the proleague seasons, you are literally not capable of understanding the subtle differences the players are doing and their impact on the game or their opponent's situation/mentality. The game really is just that much more difficult to grasp and understand than its successor. A lot happens in 14 years.
I disagree with sluggaslamoo on the flash tilting part. If you think about it the last thing your opponent would expect you to do when your up 2 is to play risky. Flash just got out meta. In thier last few matches effort has a good record against Flash. Flash and effort use to train witheach other a lot to surpass Jaedong, if anyone knows how to beat Flash it is effort. Right after Korean air Flash went 14cc every single freakin game against JD.
Only if the player you are playing against is better than you. There is no point in taking a risk to gain an early economic lead if you can win convincingly playing safe which Flash did first 2 games. Flash was so much better than Effort at that point, that there was little reason to try to take a risk. The one who needed to take risks was Effort, and Flash needed to just defend until late game. Flash had 3 chances to play safe and just win, but he blew it, 3 times in a row.
Flash let Effort play the metagame, my point is Flash didn't need to do that, he gave too much credit to Effort, instead of just letting Effort bust his balls while Flash just sits back and ride his 10 star defense rating, thus nullifying the effects metagame could have on his play. I mean if you look at game 1 and 2, Effort just got beaten so badly by standard play, it was barely even looking to be a contest at that point. Flash allowed the finals to transition to a style of dice-roll game that evened the footing, good if you can't win with standard play, bad if you can (let alone easily).
For example, it makes sense to go 14CC against Jaedong who has much better late game even better than Flash's at that point. There is no point playing purely standard against Jaedong because you are shooting yourself in the foot. Flash shouldn't have gone 14CC against Effort for the same reason he shouldn't have taken any risks against Shine (and didn't) in the OSL, Flash could have easily blown his last OSL chances against Shine just like he did with Effort. He has obviously learned from his mistakes winning so convincingly against ZerO in the finals by taking less risks early game while still inventing a strategic snipe build.
Flash is extremely good at calculating odds, but then he makes several decision making blunders in game 3, 4, 5. Pushing out with a safe build against an allin in game 3, followed by unnecessary cheese that got scouted in game 4, followed by a unnecessary greed in game 5. To me that's tilt. Flash level headed, would have played like he did against Shine or ZerO in a Bo3/5.
I'm not sure if you realize this but, as micro and apm goes we are much less forviging in sc2 compared to bw.
we go OMG HOW THE HELL CAN HE MISS THAT ONE FORCEFIELD OF 10 HE THROWN IN LESS THAN A SECOND!!! while missed plagues or multiple storms are not an uncommon sight in broodwar.
Get your hand on most pro broodwar replay pack you can find, focus on big fight that spreads on more than a single screen. you will find many mistakes that you will shawn upon sc2.
Which is normal considering interfacing upgrades sc2 have over bw, but we seem to forget this while we compare players.
EPT
It reminds me of IdrA dominating foreign competition two years ago, there were some opinions that his understanding of good macro should not allow him to win every game and that creativity should be valued higher. I would always root against IdrA too because his victories seemed so joyless, just solid execution into 'magically' having more units than the opponent, it's not so flashy. I don't know the Brood War players too well, is Flash one of those people that tends to just win games and you can't really tell why? 
. It is likely that Effort had planned to do that build depending on the starting positions. If you think it was an act of desperation, explain feigning weakness by not building sunkens with an aggressive build with the pre-emptive ling flank. I can't stress the pre-emptiveness enough, to me that smelled a lot like Saviors doing though heh, you can pretty much see that it was a prepared build.
