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On July 06 2012 21:57 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote:
That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'. DRG had 650ish sc2 apm at MLG... which is about 900 Brood war APM, so...
I think you read some statistics wrong. Or you mean spike apm, which imho is weirdly calculated in sc2 because ive seen many people already beating July BW record multiple times during normal sc2 micro.
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People shouldn't be bothered about apm and start enjoying the bw or sc2 games in my opinion.
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On July 06 2012 22:35 bgx wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 21:57 Yonnua wrote:On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote:
That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'. DRG had 650ish sc2 apm at MLG... which is about 900 Brood war APM, so... I think you read some statistics wrong. Or you mean spike apm, which imho is weirdly calculated in sc2 because ive seen many people already beating July BW record multiple times during normal sc2 micro.
I'm talking about a couple minute long spike late game where he was multitasking and microing a few battles at once.
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On July 06 2012 22:54 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 22:35 bgx wrote:On July 06 2012 21:57 Yonnua wrote:On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote:
That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'. DRG had 650ish sc2 apm at MLG... which is about 900 Brood war APM, so... I think you read some statistics wrong. Or you mean spike apm, which imho is weirdly calculated in sc2 because ive seen many people already beating July BW record multiple times during normal sc2 micro. I'm talking about a couple minute long spike late game where he was multitasking and microing a few battles at once.
Maybe what happened was that DRG had high apm, then some people converted it to brood war apm, then some people thought that number was sc2 apm and converted it again.
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On July 06 2012 23:02 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 22:54 Yonnua wrote:On July 06 2012 22:35 bgx wrote:On July 06 2012 21:57 Yonnua wrote:On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote:
That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'. DRG had 650ish sc2 apm at MLG... which is about 900 Brood war APM, so... I think you read some statistics wrong. Or you mean spike apm, which imho is weirdly calculated in sc2 because ive seen many people already beating July BW record multiple times during normal sc2 micro. I'm talking about a couple minute long spike late game where he was multitasking and microing a few battles at once. Maybe what happened was that DRG had high apm, then some people converted it to brood war apm, then some people thought that number was sc2 apm and converted it again.
They probably mean when the Observer at one point in a DRG game showed the APM tab and DRG had around 550 apm.. which people then calced to ~770 in normal time.
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On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 19:36 bgx wrote:
Bisu also was 2v2 player. Im not sure why are we discussing this. Top BW players were not actually "faster" they were actually slower in general. But they were talented so their slower APM was worth more due to their efficiency, experience, and strategy.
BW apm(realtime) was actually inflated by about 30% compared to sc2.
Points in case : Stork, Savior (200-250 apm BW)
Bisu, Fanta 250-300 apm but exceling in multitasking
Flash 250-300 exceling in macro
Jaedong 350-400
Nada was fast like 300-400 apm.
then there are many players with +300 + 400 average apm without titles etc.
Movie with like 150-200 apm (one of the lowest) was actually OSL finalist.
Bw was not really about being fastest but about efficiency and smarts. Yes the lowest acceptable speed was higher than for SC2. But every progamer/ good amateur pretty much had minimum required long ago.
So if u expect that TBLS will rock your apm meters prepare to be dissapointed, well only jaedong maybe.
The strongest players in BW history barring few cases were known for mechanics as general without emphashizing speed. And known for strategy of course.
Conclusion
The players who dominated BW will regain their strengths in SC2 when they get experience and proper muscle memory. They dont really have "insane APM" so they will be back on top if they get the "expertise" because that was the point of their mechanical genius. I never checked their efficient APM but im pretty sure its ridiculously high alleviating the difference of lower All-click APM. When you watch slower BW players you see almost close to 0 redundancy in their clicks, so despite lower all-click APM they were capable of playing and even dominating twice as fast (all APM) players. That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'.
Its probably more to do with SC2 fans going omg 350 apm! And BW fans being unimpressed by that. 
I think SC2 has a higher apm requirement, simply because there is less you can do with micro, strategy and positioning. That's why the top SC2 players have such high apm. When you are micro-ing units hard, your apm actually goes down, because you are trying to do irreparable damage that will compensate for your slip in macro/tech timing.
There are some freaks out there with tons of apm, HerO, Peak Bisu (used to avg ~450, he slowed down a lot to ~350, but became better as a result), Nada, Jangbi, Jaedong, Flash on occasion (his multitasking isn't that great though).
Its also true that a lot of the top BW players had very low apm like Movie, Stork, iloveoov and Savior. I don't think we will see that as much in SC2. iloveoov and Savior were massively dominant in their time, with such low apm.
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On July 06 2012 23:02 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 22:54 Yonnua wrote:On July 06 2012 22:35 bgx wrote:On July 06 2012 21:57 Yonnua wrote:On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote:
That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'. DRG had 650ish sc2 apm at MLG... which is about 900 Brood war APM, so... I think you read some statistics wrong. Or you mean spike apm, which imho is weirdly calculated in sc2 because ive seen many people already beating July BW record multiple times during normal sc2 micro. I'm talking about a couple minute long spike late game where he was multitasking and microing a few battles at once. Maybe what happened was that DRG had high apm, then some people converted it to brood war apm, then some people thought that number was sc2 apm and converted it again.
He's talking about the observer bringing up the APM tab on stream. Artosis actually commented and said "Thats...the most APM we've ever seen" at the time. I was at Manchester Barcraft watching those games.
IIRC the APM tab they brought up showed 650~ APM. Now obviously thats 650APM blizzard time, which you times by 1.38 to get the number of actual keypresses occuring in that time. 1.38 times 650 = 897.
Thats pretty fucking fast, even by Broodwar standards.
BTW, out of interest, I just opened up some Battlegrounds replays in SC2gears. Stephano's APM, realtime, is 350 taking the game as a whole, and peaks at 587 in his games against squirtle.
Edit: Also, why do people seem to never, ever make note of that 1.38 times speed discrepancy when comparing APM between the two games? I know you can set SC2gears to display actual time instead, but all the APM figures usually come from streams, do they not?
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On July 07 2012 01:35 GuitarBizarre wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 23:02 Grumbels wrote:On July 06 2012 22:54 Yonnua wrote:On July 06 2012 22:35 bgx wrote:On July 06 2012 21:57 Yonnua wrote:On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote:
That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'. DRG had 650ish sc2 apm at MLG... which is about 900 Brood war APM, so... I think you read some statistics wrong. Or you mean spike apm, which imho is weirdly calculated in sc2 because ive seen many people already beating July BW record multiple times during normal sc2 micro. I'm talking about a couple minute long spike late game where he was multitasking and microing a few battles at once. Maybe what happened was that DRG had high apm, then some people converted it to brood war apm, then some people thought that number was sc2 apm and converted it again. He's talking about the observer bringing up the APM tab on stream. Artosis actually commented and said "Thats...the most APM we've ever seen" at the time. I was at Manchester Barcraft watching those games. IIRC the APM tab they brought up showed 650~ APM. Now obviously thats 650APM blizzard time, which you times by 1.38 to get the number of actual keypresses occuring in that time. 1.38 times 650 = 897. Thats pretty fucking fast, even by Broodwar standards.
Problem is also, with Zerg you hold down a key to produce units and that counts as many actions im pretty sure. He could have banked a ton of larva and spammed out 350 lings.
You can't do this in BW except with holding down a ctrl group which you'd never do unless in the first min of the game.
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Eh, sometimes APM spikes in SC2 when Zerg players press and hold down hotkeys to build/morph units.
edit: sniped :o
Also, I'm still wondering if it's possible to watch this outside of Korea.
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On July 06 2012 21:57 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote:
That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'. DRG had 650ish sc2 apm at MLG... which is about 900 Brood war APM, so...
O.o that seems physically impossible. 900 apm is 15 actions per second...
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On July 07 2012 01:39 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 01:35 GuitarBizarre wrote:On July 06 2012 23:02 Grumbels wrote:On July 06 2012 22:54 Yonnua wrote:On July 06 2012 22:35 bgx wrote:On July 06 2012 21:57 Yonnua wrote:On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote:
That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'. DRG had 650ish sc2 apm at MLG... which is about 900 Brood war APM, so... I think you read some statistics wrong. Or you mean spike apm, which imho is weirdly calculated in sc2 because ive seen many people already beating July BW record multiple times during normal sc2 micro. I'm talking about a couple minute long spike late game where he was multitasking and microing a few battles at once. Maybe what happened was that DRG had high apm, then some people converted it to brood war apm, then some people thought that number was sc2 apm and converted it again. He's talking about the observer bringing up the APM tab on stream. Artosis actually commented and said "Thats...the most APM we've ever seen" at the time. I was at Manchester Barcraft watching those games. IIRC the APM tab they brought up showed 650~ APM. Now obviously thats 650APM blizzard time, which you times by 1.38 to get the number of actual keypresses occuring in that time. 1.38 times 650 = 897. Thats pretty fucking fast, even by Broodwar standards. Problem is also, with Zerg you hold down a key to produce units and that counts as many actions im pretty sure. He could have banked a ton of larva and spammed out 350 lings. You can't do this in BW except with holding down a ctrl group which you'd never do unless in the first min of the game.
I edited my post to make a comparison to Stephano, and Stephano's peak APM was 587 realtime.
Sadly I can't get hold of the DRG replays to actually bring up the real stats.
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On July 07 2012 00:40 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote:On July 06 2012 19:36 bgx wrote:
Bisu also was 2v2 player. Im not sure why are we discussing this. Top BW players were not actually "faster" they were actually slower in general. But they were talented so their slower APM was worth more due to their efficiency, experience, and strategy.
BW apm(realtime) was actually inflated by about 30% compared to sc2.
Points in case : Stork, Savior (200-250 apm BW)
Bisu, Fanta 250-300 apm but exceling in multitasking
Flash 250-300 exceling in macro
Jaedong 350-400
Nada was fast like 300-400 apm.
then there are many players with +300 + 400 average apm without titles etc.
Movie with like 150-200 apm (one of the lowest) was actually OSL finalist.
Bw was not really about being fastest but about efficiency and smarts. Yes the lowest acceptable speed was higher than for SC2. But every progamer/ good amateur pretty much had minimum required long ago.
So if u expect that TBLS will rock your apm meters prepare to be dissapointed, well only jaedong maybe.
The strongest players in BW history barring few cases were known for mechanics as general without emphashizing speed. And known for strategy of course.
Conclusion
The players who dominated BW will regain their strengths in SC2 when they get experience and proper muscle memory. They dont really have "insane APM" so they will be back on top if they get the "expertise" because that was the point of their mechanical genius. I never checked their efficient APM but im pretty sure its ridiculously high alleviating the difference of lower All-click APM. When you watch slower BW players you see almost close to 0 redundancy in their clicks, so despite lower all-click APM they were capable of playing and even dominating twice as fast (all APM) players. That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'. Its probably more to do with SC2 fans going omg 350 apm! And BW fans being unimpressed by that. I think SC2 has a higher apm requirement, simply because there is less you can do with micro, strategy and positioning. That's why the top SC2 players have such high apm. When you are micro-ing units hard, your apm actually goes down, because you are trying to do irreparable damage that will compensate for your slip in macro/tech timing. There are some freaks out there with tons of apm, HerO, Peak Bisu (used to avg ~450, he slowed down a lot to ~350, but became better as a result), Nada, Jangbi, Jaedong, Flash on occasion (his multitasking isn't that great though). Its also true that a lot of the top BW players had very low apm like Movie, Stork, iloveoov and Savior. I don't think we will see that as much in SC2. iloveoov and Savior were massively dominant in their time, with such low apm.
APM is less important in sc2 in general because there's just plain old less to do. When you have 1 hotkey that can potentially contain your entire army, just 1 command given to that hotkey means it counts an action for each and every unit in that group. Same thing with multiple-building selection.
The reason BW players will not be impressed with 350 is because of all the S-class progamers telling us insider information such as that progamers consider 350 to be the absolute bar-zero for even being able to play in progamer leagues. Although there have been exceptions (lower apm than 350 for you slow folk, come on keep up!), these pros number less than just a single 1% of total people in the pro-gamer level scene.
Also while you guys can inflate the APM by "compensating" for real-time discrepancies and these other silly methods, BW took place in "real-time" while still being the 2 settings above "Normal" and those people were usually around 400 apm.
I don't know where these ridiculous APM numbers came from, but that person clearly is not a knowledgeable person in BW. The majority of BW pros have 350+ APM. That number varies all the way up to around 500 if we take out really wild spike players who might have 500+ but usually perform less well (same with way below like 200, its too few to count in a decent sample).
The impressiveness is not their APM, but how fluid everything looks in a game where you literally have to do everything. Every worker must be placed on minerals/gas or building something. Shift-commands don't have nearly the depth they do in SC2 so everything has to be done as-it-happens. Your limited 12 unit max control groups also make something as small as moving your army a task that has to be learned and carefully executed just to make your army look uniform and well-organized as it moves around.
Add onto all this that most top BW pros had 250-350 eapm and what you see is nearly-perfection. I don't know if anyone here really realizes just how much practice and hard work it takes to not just spike, but maintain for 30.. maybe even 50 minutes (TvPs and TvTs) 300eapm in BW. We're not going to be easily-impressed by some APM numbers in SC2 not just because of the different mechanics involved, but also because we don't consider APM to be some super-important thing that needs to be focused on. Just "getting everything done when it happens" is enough to push your APM into the hundreds there.
TL;DR: APM is not important to us. Hence, we will not be impressed with SC2 apm for that along with other reasons.
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On July 07 2012 01:50 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 00:40 sluggaslamoo wrote:On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote:On July 06 2012 19:36 bgx wrote:
Bisu also was 2v2 player. Im not sure why are we discussing this. Top BW players were not actually "faster" they were actually slower in general. But they were talented so their slower APM was worth more due to their efficiency, experience, and strategy.
BW apm(realtime) was actually inflated by about 30% compared to sc2.
Points in case : Stork, Savior (200-250 apm BW)
Bisu, Fanta 250-300 apm but exceling in multitasking
Flash 250-300 exceling in macro
Jaedong 350-400
Nada was fast like 300-400 apm.
then there are many players with +300 + 400 average apm without titles etc.
Movie with like 150-200 apm (one of the lowest) was actually OSL finalist.
Bw was not really about being fastest but about efficiency and smarts. Yes the lowest acceptable speed was higher than for SC2. But every progamer/ good amateur pretty much had minimum required long ago.
So if u expect that TBLS will rock your apm meters prepare to be dissapointed, well only jaedong maybe.
The strongest players in BW history barring few cases were known for mechanics as general without emphashizing speed. And known for strategy of course.
Conclusion
The players who dominated BW will regain their strengths in SC2 when they get experience and proper muscle memory. They dont really have "insane APM" so they will be back on top if they get the "expertise" because that was the point of their mechanical genius. I never checked their efficient APM but im pretty sure its ridiculously high alleviating the difference of lower All-click APM. When you watch slower BW players you see almost close to 0 redundancy in their clicks, so despite lower all-click APM they were capable of playing and even dominating twice as fast (all APM) players. That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'. Its probably more to do with SC2 fans going omg 350 apm! And BW fans being unimpressed by that. I think SC2 has a higher apm requirement, simply because there is less you can do with micro, strategy and positioning. That's why the top SC2 players have such high apm. When you are micro-ing units hard, your apm actually goes down, because you are trying to do irreparable damage that will compensate for your slip in macro/tech timing. There are some freaks out there with tons of apm, HerO, Peak Bisu (used to avg ~450, he slowed down a lot to ~350, but became better as a result), Nada, Jangbi, Jaedong, Flash on occasion (his multitasking isn't that great though). Its also true that a lot of the top BW players had very low apm like Movie, Stork, iloveoov and Savior. I don't think we will see that as much in SC2. iloveoov and Savior were massively dominant in their time, with such low apm. APM is less important in sc2 in general because there's just plain old less to do. When you have 1 hotkey that can potentially contain your entire army, just 1 command given to that hotkey means it counts an action for each and every unit in that group. Same thing with multiple-building selection. The reason BW players will not be impressed with 350 is because of all the S-class progamers telling us insider information such as that progamers consider 350 to be the absolute bar-zero for even being able to play in progamer leagues. Although there have been exceptions (lower apm than 350 for you slow folk, come on keep up!), these pros number less than just a single 1% of total people in the pro-gamer level scene. Also while you guys can inflate the APM by "compensating" for real-time discrepancies and these other silly methods, BW took place in "real-time" while still being the 2 settings above "Normal" and those people were usually around 400 apm.
I'm not sure how its "inflating" the APM, to just times it by 1.38, when we KNOW the game under-reports APM by that same amount. All the exercise does is translate a Starcraft 2 "Game time" APM figure, into a Starcraft 2 "Real Time" APM figure.
If I sit down and perform one action every 60 seconds on the Starcraft 2 game clock, the ingame APM will report 1 exactly. But my actual APM would be 1.38
If we are calculating out that discrepancy to give the real number of button presses per minute, and BW APM has always been the real number of button presses per minute, then all that does is make it so we are comparing the same thing across both.
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On July 07 2012 00:40 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote:On July 06 2012 19:36 bgx wrote:
Bisu also was 2v2 player. Im not sure why are we discussing this. Top BW players were not actually "faster" they were actually slower in general. But they were talented so their slower APM was worth more due to their efficiency, experience, and strategy.
BW apm(realtime) was actually inflated by about 30% compared to sc2.
Points in case : Stork, Savior (200-250 apm BW)
Bisu, Fanta 250-300 apm but exceling in multitasking
Flash 250-300 exceling in macro
Jaedong 350-400
Nada was fast like 300-400 apm.
then there are many players with +300 + 400 average apm without titles etc.
Movie with like 150-200 apm (one of the lowest) was actually OSL finalist.
Bw was not really about being fastest but about efficiency and smarts. Yes the lowest acceptable speed was higher than for SC2. But every progamer/ good amateur pretty much had minimum required long ago.
So if u expect that TBLS will rock your apm meters prepare to be dissapointed, well only jaedong maybe.
The strongest players in BW history barring few cases were known for mechanics as general without emphashizing speed. And known for strategy of course.
Conclusion
The players who dominated BW will regain their strengths in SC2 when they get experience and proper muscle memory. They dont really have "insane APM" so they will be back on top if they get the "expertise" because that was the point of their mechanical genius. I never checked their efficient APM but im pretty sure its ridiculously high alleviating the difference of lower All-click APM. When you watch slower BW players you see almost close to 0 redundancy in their clicks, so despite lower all-click APM they were capable of playing and even dominating twice as fast (all APM) players. That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'. Its probably more to do with SC2 fans going omg 350 apm! And BW fans being unimpressed by that. I think SC2 has a higher apm requirement, simply because there is less you can do with micro, strategy and positioning. That's why the top SC2 players have such high apm. When you are micro-ing units hard, your apm actually goes down, because you are trying to do irreparable damage that will compensate for your slip in macro/tech timing. There are some freaks out there with tons of apm, HerO, Peak Bisu (used to avg ~450, he slowed down a lot to ~350, but became better as a result), Nada, Jangbi, Jaedong, Flash on occasion (his multitasking isn't that great though).Its also true that a lot of the top BW players had very low apm like Movie, Stork, iloveoov and Savior. I don't think we will see that as much in SC2. iloveoov and Savior were massively dominant in their time, with such low apm.
? I don't get the bold part at all. Flash multitasking is pretty damn good (if not one of the best), otherwise he wouldn't have such a good TvT win ratio (TvT required an incredible amount of multitasking skills in order to compete at highest level in BW).
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On July 07 2012 00:40 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote:On July 06 2012 19:36 bgx wrote:
Bisu also was 2v2 player. Im not sure why are we discussing this. Top BW players were not actually "faster" they were actually slower in general. But they were talented so their slower APM was worth more due to their efficiency, experience, and strategy.
BW apm(realtime) was actually inflated by about 30% compared to sc2.
Points in case : Stork, Savior (200-250 apm BW)
Bisu, Fanta 250-300 apm but exceling in multitasking
Flash 250-300 exceling in macro
Jaedong 350-400
Nada was fast like 300-400 apm.
then there are many players with +300 + 400 average apm without titles etc.
Movie with like 150-200 apm (one of the lowest) was actually OSL finalist.
Bw was not really about being fastest but about efficiency and smarts. Yes the lowest acceptable speed was higher than for SC2. But every progamer/ good amateur pretty much had minimum required long ago.
So if u expect that TBLS will rock your apm meters prepare to be dissapointed, well only jaedong maybe.
The strongest players in BW history barring few cases were known for mechanics as general without emphashizing speed. And known for strategy of course.
Conclusion
The players who dominated BW will regain their strengths in SC2 when they get experience and proper muscle memory. They dont really have "insane APM" so they will be back on top if they get the "expertise" because that was the point of their mechanical genius. I never checked their efficient APM but im pretty sure its ridiculously high alleviating the difference of lower All-click APM. When you watch slower BW players you see almost close to 0 redundancy in their clicks, so despite lower all-click APM they were capable of playing and even dominating twice as fast (all APM) players. That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'. Its probably more to do with SC2 fans going omg 350 apm! And BW fans being unimpressed by that. I think SC2 has a higher apm requirement, simply because there is less you can do with micro, strategy and positioning. That's why the top SC2 players have such high apm. When you are micro-ing units hard, your apm actually goes down, because you are trying to do irreparable damage that will compensate for your slip in macro/tech timing. There are some freaks out there with tons of apm, HerO, Peak Bisu (used to avg ~450, he slowed down a lot to ~350, but became better as a result), Nada, Jangbi, Jaedong, Flash on occasion (his multitasking isn't that great though). Its also true that a lot of the top BW players had very low apm like Movie, Stork, iloveoov and Savior. I don't think we will see that as much in SC2. iloveoov and Savior were massively dominant in their time, with such low apm.
It's actually roughly the same. Just the calculations are different thus SC2 players appear to have lower apm in some instances and BW players look like they have higher apm. It's just an illusion. Anyway APM* means very little at that point.
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On July 06 2012 09:34 Kitaen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 07:13 sGs.Kal_rA wrote:On July 06 2012 06:48 maybenexttime wrote:On July 06 2012 04:57 sGs.Kal_rA wrote:On July 06 2012 01:55 Kajarn wrote:
BW Pros playing a game they aren't familiar with vs SC2 Pros who know all the tricks and established meta game.....
Just sounds like an oportunity for a few BW Pros to show they are good at adapting to a different game, thats it.
BTW: BW Pros aren't necessarily talented, just faster. Look at Nestea, who never had the mechanics to play BW, but is a genious in SC2. Even in current SC2 world Nestea is considered a slower Zerg!
Maybe BW Pros will change the game by playing faster, but I highly doubt it. They will change the game due to their work ethic more than anything, which is not gonna happen for 6months to 1 year time. The real fun is going to come in a couple months when they understand the game.. Its when they stop simply massing games to get a feel of how sc2 works and start tailoring their own strategies. Like when Slayers when for that blue flame strat that got nerfed. Or when Flash develops a new bw build from ground up that accounts for every possible weakness, yet remains optimal / can cut corners when needed based on what he scouts. These players are tactical geniuses. Their game sense / reaction times for RTS games are the best in the world. After they get adjusted in a couple months we can see whats really up. This is FAR from a perfect science though lol... just gotta wait and see Saying that Nestea didn't have the mechanics is bullshit. sAviOr had around 250 apm for god's sake. T______T Thats the beauty of this game  Being fast helps. But its not necessary. I remember reading an interview form Movie where he said his coach always thought he was just surfing the web instead of practicing cause he played so slow.. I think his apm avged around 180-240.. slower than sAviOr lol like it matters if you have 150 or 1000 in sc2 it doesn't
Let me bold that for you.... :|
+ Show Spoiler +
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Well this is going to be one sided I think. But I hope I'm wrong!
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Something else to consider is that internet games will always have higher APM because it ain't lan but I guess thats depending on the method that is used to measure APM. Never really delved too much into it but sometimes in other games i get 1k apm easy due to lag and spikes.
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Will this happen the monday in two days?
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On July 07 2012 02:04 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 00:40 sluggaslamoo wrote:On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote:On July 06 2012 19:36 bgx wrote:
Bisu also was 2v2 player. Im not sure why are we discussing this. Top BW players were not actually "faster" they were actually slower in general. But they were talented so their slower APM was worth more due to their efficiency, experience, and strategy.
BW apm(realtime) was actually inflated by about 30% compared to sc2.
Points in case : Stork, Savior (200-250 apm BW)
Bisu, Fanta 250-300 apm but exceling in multitasking
Flash 250-300 exceling in macro
Jaedong 350-400
Nada was fast like 300-400 apm.
then there are many players with +300 + 400 average apm without titles etc.
Movie with like 150-200 apm (one of the lowest) was actually OSL finalist.
Bw was not really about being fastest but about efficiency and smarts. Yes the lowest acceptable speed was higher than for SC2. But every progamer/ good amateur pretty much had minimum required long ago.
So if u expect that TBLS will rock your apm meters prepare to be dissapointed, well only jaedong maybe.
The strongest players in BW history barring few cases were known for mechanics as general without emphashizing speed. And known for strategy of course.
Conclusion
The players who dominated BW will regain their strengths in SC2 when they get experience and proper muscle memory. They dont really have "insane APM" so they will be back on top if they get the "expertise" because that was the point of their mechanical genius. I never checked their efficient APM but im pretty sure its ridiculously high alleviating the difference of lower All-click APM. When you watch slower BW players you see almost close to 0 redundancy in their clicks, so despite lower all-click APM they were capable of playing and even dominating twice as fast (all APM) players. That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'. Its probably more to do with SC2 fans going omg 350 apm! And BW fans being unimpressed by that. I think SC2 has a higher apm requirement, simply because there is less you can do with micro, strategy and positioning. That's why the top SC2 players have such high apm. When you are micro-ing units hard, your apm actually goes down, because you are trying to do irreparable damage that will compensate for your slip in macro/tech timing. There are some freaks out there with tons of apm, HerO, Peak Bisu (used to avg ~450, he slowed down a lot to ~350, but became better as a result), Nada, Jangbi, Jaedong, Flash on occasion (his multitasking isn't that great though).Its also true that a lot of the top BW players had very low apm like Movie, Stork, iloveoov and Savior. I don't think we will see that as much in SC2. iloveoov and Savior were massively dominant in their time, with such low apm. ? I don't get the bold part at all. Flash multitasking is pretty damn good (if not one of the best), otherwise he wouldn't have such a good TvT win ratio (TvT required an incredible amount of multitasking skills in order to compete at highest level in BW).
Compared to the top pros, he's really not.
That's why Flash tries to reduce games down to a strategic level, by doing greedy builds and having very solid build branches and timing attacks. If he had top level multitasking he wouldn't need to do that, he could just open standard.
In the SPL finals SKT was very smart in designing builds that brought Flash away from strategic play and reduced it to a multitasking game. Flash lost both of those games because he simply couldn't keep up in mechanics and got out-macroed.
Play a standard game and Flash will destroy you with strategic play, consistently cause mayhem from the get-go and he can no longer use strategy to his advantage. Its actually surprising how much weaker Flash becomes when he is under constant pressure.
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EPT
