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Hmm, people are just throwing random statements out, even myself, but this whole thing can be analyzed by looking at the kespa invitational. Their builds are not as strong, but their unit control and map awareness is insane. Unit control and map awareness are going to transfer over and be up to a godlike level very soon.
You'll notice them staying on 2 base a little too long, or just not expanding a whole lot. The reason for this is that Starcraft 2 is a much faster game when it comes to building timing and resource mining to unit cost. So, where in their minds they have that natural timing on when to expand, it's generally slower than that of experienced sc2 pros.
On the other hand, look at the level of micro from the kespa players. It's easily at the highest level in the game. Notice, I'm talking about micro, not to be miscontrued with bad judgement on attacking/running decisions with large armies. Look at their map awareness in those games. Man, they see shit immediately, and THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW THE GAME-SENSE TIMING OF WHEN CERTAIN THINGS CAN BE AT THEIR BASE!
Compare Code A player micro to the kespa player micro. Code A is just sloppy micro guys.. it just is. Watch recent "great" Code A games and you see some pretty major blunders here and there. Now watch even Code S. You know these BW gods are going to be on the same micro level soon enough.
The 3 things lacking from kespa players are build orders, game sense timing, and probably base range perception (like.. when they siege a tank, they probably can't instantly tell if they're at max range before hitting siege mode). There's one major difference in all of this, and that is Flash. Just watch his games... his micro is just... it's just flawless. His base upkeep is completely ridiculous. The guy looks like MKP with m&m&m, crazy micro. His base upkeep is just stupid. We watch him gun for bisu, who admittedly committed poorly, but even after he's tearing him down, flash has more expos, tech... the guy is just a beast.
I'm tellin you guys man, you watch that dude's skills transfer over and he's microing/macroing like that in 1-2 months of play time? Unit control + macro at THAT level ALREADY?
I strongly feel that Flash will soon look like MVP did when he began to dominate. He just has such flawless unit control and reaction speed. It's like 1 person is playing his base and 1 person is microing the units. Also, read his interview after the kespa tournament at mlg: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=343885
You see, this player in particular can look at players like MVP, MMA, and MKP, and he can just copy them. He's faster, better at macro and micro than all of them, and continues on to talk about working hard, even if he needs to get another operation. You guys can quote this and call me on my bullshit if I'm wrong, but I'm expecting Flash to seriously be Code S level very soon............... or maybe already is.
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2012 16:46 Gruntt wrote:Hmm, people are just throwing random statements out, even myself, but this whole thing can be analyzed by looking at the kespa invitational. Their builds are not as strong, but their unit control and map awareness is insane. Unit control and map awareness are going to transfer over and be up to a godlike level very soon. You'll notice them staying on 2 base a little too long, or just not expanding a whole lot. The reason for this is that Starcraft 2 is a much faster game when it comes to building timing and resource mining to unit cost. So, where in their minds they have that natural timing on when to expand, it's generally slower than that of experienced sc2 pros. On the other hand, look at the level of micro from the kespa players. It's easily at the highest level in the game. Notice, I'm talking about micro, not to be miscontrued with bad judgement on attacking/running decisions with large armies. Look at their map awareness in those games. Man, they see shit immediately, and THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW THE GAME-SENSE TIMING OF WHEN CERTAIN THINGS CAN BE AT THEIR BASE! Compare Code A player micro to the kespa player micro. Code A is just sloppy micro guys.. it just is. Watch recent "great" Code A games and you see some pretty major blunders here and there. Now watch even Code S. You know these BW gods are going to be on the same micro level soon enough. The 3 things lacking from kespa players are build orders, game sense timing, and probably base range perception (like.. when they siege a tank, they probably can't instantly tell if they're at max range before hitting siege mode). There's one major difference in all of this, and that is Flash. Just watch his games... his micro is just... it's just flawless. His base upkeep is completely ridiculous. The guy looks like MKP with m&m&m, crazy micro. His base upkeep is just stupid. We watch him gun for bisu, who admittedly committed poorly, but even after he's tearing him down, flash has more expos, tech... the guy is just a beast. I'm tellin you guys man, you watch that dude's skills transfer over and he's microing/macroing like that in 1-2 months of play time? Unit control + macro at THAT level ALREADY? I strongly feel that Flash will soon look like MVP did when he began to dominate. He just has such flawless unit control and reaction speed. It's like 1 person is playing his base and 1 person is microing the units. Also, read his interview after the kespa tournament at mlg: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=343885You see, this player in particular can look at players like MVP, MMA, and MKP, and he can just copy them. He's faster, better at macro and micro than all of them, and continues on to talk about working hard, even if he needs to get another operation. You guys can quote this and call me on my bullshit if I'm wrong, but I'm expecting Flash to seriously be Code S level very soon............... or maybe already is.
And yet he is 3-4 against other kespa pro's on proleague...
The one eyed man is king among the blind, but i highly doubt he is anywhere near code S level. He also lacks the game experience of the current pros, and not having experienced the last two years of metagame and build orders mean that if someone whips out a build from a year ago, he will never have seen it before. I think you underestimate the level of complexity in some of the matchups, which very few people fully understand, and while his macro and micro are amazing, i think if you put him up against the better code s players they would run rings around him.
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On July 06 2012 17:08 killerdog wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2012 16:46 Gruntt wrote:Hmm, people are just throwing random statements out, even myself, but this whole thing can be analyzed by looking at the kespa invitational. Their builds are not as strong, but their unit control and map awareness is insane. Unit control and map awareness are going to transfer over and be up to a godlike level very soon. You'll notice them staying on 2 base a little too long, or just not expanding a whole lot. The reason for this is that Starcraft 2 is a much faster game when it comes to building timing and resource mining to unit cost. So, where in their minds they have that natural timing on when to expand, it's generally slower than that of experienced sc2 pros. On the other hand, look at the level of micro from the kespa players. It's easily at the highest level in the game. Notice, I'm talking about micro, not to be miscontrued with bad judgement on attacking/running decisions with large armies. Look at their map awareness in those games. Man, they see shit immediately, and THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW THE GAME-SENSE TIMING OF WHEN CERTAIN THINGS CAN BE AT THEIR BASE! Compare Code A player micro to the kespa player micro. Code A is just sloppy micro guys.. it just is. Watch recent "great" Code A games and you see some pretty major blunders here and there. Now watch even Code S. You know these BW gods are going to be on the same micro level soon enough. The 3 things lacking from kespa players are build orders, game sense timing, and probably base range perception (like.. when they siege a tank, they probably can't instantly tell if they're at max range before hitting siege mode). There's one major difference in all of this, and that is Flash. Just watch his games... his micro is just... it's just flawless. His base upkeep is completely ridiculous. The guy looks like MKP with m&m&m, crazy micro. His base upkeep is just stupid. We watch him gun for bisu, who admittedly committed poorly, but even after he's tearing him down, flash has more expos, tech... the guy is just a beast. I'm tellin you guys man, you watch that dude's skills transfer over and he's microing/macroing like that in 1-2 months of play time? Unit control + macro at THAT level ALREADY? I strongly feel that Flash will soon look like MVP did when he began to dominate. He just has such flawless unit control and reaction speed. It's like 1 person is playing his base and 1 person is microing the units. Also, read his interview after the kespa tournament at mlg: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=343885You see, this player in particular can look at players like MVP, MMA, and MKP, and he can just copy them. He's faster, better at macro and micro than all of them, and continues on to talk about working hard, even if he needs to get another operation. You guys can quote this and call me on my bullshit if I'm wrong, but I'm expecting Flash to seriously be Code S level very soon............... or maybe already is.
And yet he is 3-4 against other kespa pro's on proleague...
The one eyed man is king among the blind, but i highly doubt he is anywhere near code S level. He also lacks the game experience of the current pros, and not having experienced the last two years of metagame and build orders mean that if someone whips out a build from a year ago, he will never have seen it before. I think you underestimate the level of complexity in some of the matchups, which very few people fully understand, and while his macro and micro are amazing, i think if you put him up against the better code s players they would run rings around him.
I suppose we'll have our answer soon enough!
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i know all everybody is speculating but when does this start?
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I cant really see this top lvl micro from bw players.. they cant really micro that well. I mean, I'm pretty sure we watch the same games, but there are alot of micro mistakes, or reluctancy to micro, sometimes flat out not being fast enought to pull out the needed and expected micro.
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I dont like the whole concept. Players will be chosen for arbitrary reasons like perceived popularity, not because they qualified. Not even sure if there is an incentive for the players to try everything to win, or if they will just try to "show good games".
In the end it is more eShow than eSports.
Also, I can already see the annoying shitting contests between bw and sc2 fans.
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On July 06 2012 18:26 Redox wrote:
I dont like the whole concept. Players will be chosen for arbitrary reasons like perceived popularity, not because they qualified. Not even sure if there is an incentive for the players to try everything to win, or if they will just try to "show good games".
In the end it is more eShow than eSports.
Also, I can already see the annoying shitting contests between bw and sc2 fans.
esports needs to be a show to gain hype. anything will help at this point.
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kespa player will have many motivation after being crush by GSL player.
Then after 2 month they come and then make an entertaining game for us.
Thats a real benefit of this event
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Are they really gonna have people play in this while also preparing for the OSL RO4?
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On July 06 2012 12:11 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 04:01 ggrrg wrote:On July 06 2012 01:55 Kajarn wrote:
BW Pros playing a game they aren't familiar with vs SC2 Pros who know all the tricks and established meta game.....
Just sounds like an oportunity for a few BW Pros to show they are good at adapting to a different game, thats it.
BTW: BW Pros aren't necessarily talented, just faster. Look at Nestea, who never had the mechanics to play BW, but is a genious in SC2. Even in current SC2 world Nestea is considered a slower Zerg!
Maybe BW Pros will change the game by playing faster, but I highly doubt it. They will change the game due to their work ethic more than anything, which is not gonna happen for 6months to 1 year time. Actually, Nestea is a very bad example. He was a very promising talent sweeping a lot of amateur tourneys before he entered progaming. But when he joined KT, they made him train and play pretty much only 2v2. Considering how much time he was forced to waste on 2v2, he basically wasn't really given the chance to shine in 1v1. We will never know how he would have fared if he was allowed to concentrate on 1v1 instead. Chances are he would have been a decent player. A lot of other players were "forced" to play 2v2 *cough*  Reach *cough*... whats this Reach also has a title????
lol, reach wasn't forced, reach loved 2v2, and teamed up with H.O.T.-Forever, they made a best 2v2 team that ever played imo.
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On July 06 2012 19:12 .vid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 12:11 ShadeR wrote:On July 06 2012 04:01 ggrrg wrote:On July 06 2012 01:55 Kajarn wrote:
BW Pros playing a game they aren't familiar with vs SC2 Pros who know all the tricks and established meta game.....
Just sounds like an oportunity for a few BW Pros to show they are good at adapting to a different game, thats it.
BTW: BW Pros aren't necessarily talented, just faster. Look at Nestea, who never had the mechanics to play BW, but is a genious in SC2. Even in current SC2 world Nestea is considered a slower Zerg!
Maybe BW Pros will change the game by playing faster, but I highly doubt it. They will change the game due to their work ethic more than anything, which is not gonna happen for 6months to 1 year time. Actually, Nestea is a very bad example. He was a very promising talent sweeping a lot of amateur tourneys before he entered progaming. But when he joined KT, they made him train and play pretty much only 2v2. Considering how much time he was forced to waste on 2v2, he basically wasn't really given the chance to shine in 1v1. We will never know how he would have fared if he was allowed to concentrate on 1v1 instead. Chances are he would have been a decent player. A lot of other players were "forced" to play 2v2 *cough* Reach *cough*... whats this Reach also has a title???? lol, reach wasn't forced, reach loved 2v2, and teamed up with H.O.T.-Forever, they made a best 2v2 team that ever played imo.
True, also Reach was a great 2v2 player before being any good in 1v1.
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Bisu also was 2v2 player. Im not sure why are we discussing this. Top BW players were not actually "faster" they were actually slower in general. But they were talented so their slower APM was worth more due to their efficiency, experience, and strategy.
BW apm(realtime) was actually inflated by about 30% compared to sc2.
Points in case : Stork, Savior (200-250 apm BW)
Bisu, Fanta 250-300 apm but exceling in multitasking
Flash 250-300 exceling in macro
Jaedong 350-400
Nada was fast like 300-400 apm.
then there are many players with +300 + 400 average apm without titles etc.
Movie with like 150-200 apm (one of the lowest) was actually OSL finalist.
Bw was not really about being fastest but about efficiency and smarts. Yes the lowest acceptable speed was higher than for SC2. But every progamer/ good amateur pretty much had minimum required long ago.
So if u expect that TBLS will rock your apm meters prepare to be dissapointed, well only jaedong maybe.
The strongest players in BW history barring few cases were known for mechanics as general without emphashizing speed. And known for strategy of course.
Conclusion
The players who dominated BW will regain their strengths in SC2 when they get experience and proper muscle memory. They dont really have "insane APM" so they will be back on top if they get the "expertise" because that was the point of their mechanical genius. I never checked their efficient APM but im pretty sure its ridiculously high alleviating the difference of lower All-click APM. When you watch slower BW players you see almost close to 0 redundancy in their clicks, so despite lower all-click APM they were capable of playing and even dominating twice as fast (all APM) players.
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On July 06 2012 19:12 .vid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 12:11 ShadeR wrote:On July 06 2012 04:01 ggrrg wrote:On July 06 2012 01:55 Kajarn wrote:
BW Pros playing a game they aren't familiar with vs SC2 Pros who know all the tricks and established meta game.....
Just sounds like an oportunity for a few BW Pros to show they are good at adapting to a different game, thats it.
BTW: BW Pros aren't necessarily talented, just faster. Look at Nestea, who never had the mechanics to play BW, but is a genious in SC2. Even in current SC2 world Nestea is considered a slower Zerg!
Maybe BW Pros will change the game by playing faster, but I highly doubt it. They will change the game due to their work ethic more than anything, which is not gonna happen for 6months to 1 year time. Actually, Nestea is a very bad example. He was a very promising talent sweeping a lot of amateur tourneys before he entered progaming. But when he joined KT, they made him train and play pretty much only 2v2. Considering how much time he was forced to waste on 2v2, he basically wasn't really given the chance to shine in 1v1. We will never know how he would have fared if he was allowed to concentrate on 1v1 instead. Chances are he would have been a decent player. A lot of other players were "forced" to play 2v2 *cough* Reach *cough*... whats this Reach also has a title???? lol, reach wasn't forced, reach loved 2v2, and teamed up with H.O.T.-Forever, they made a best 2v2 team that ever played imo.
Hence the inverted comma's. I was responding to the inference that Zergbong never got the chance to show his stuff in BW.
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Feels too early. I don't want to see my bisu and jaedong get rofl stomped against code s players. 
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On July 06 2012 19:36 bgx wrote:
Bisu also was 2v2 player. Im not sure why are we discussing this. Top BW players were not actually "faster" they were actually slower in general. But they were talented so their slower APM was worth more due to their efficiency, experience, and strategy.
BW apm(realtime) was actually inflated by about 30% compared to sc2.
Points in case : Stork, Savior (200-250 apm BW)
Bisu, Fanta 250-300 apm but exceling in multitasking
Flash 250-300 exceling in macro
Jaedong 350-400
Nada was fast like 300-400 apm.
then there are many players with +300 + 400 average apm without titles etc.
Movie with like 150-200 apm (one of the lowest) was actually OSL finalist.
Bw was not really about being fastest but about efficiency and smarts. Yes the lowest acceptable speed was higher than for SC2. But every progamer/ good amateur pretty much had minimum required long ago.
So if u expect that TBLS will rock your apm meters prepare to be dissapointed, well only jaedong maybe.
The strongest players in BW history barring few cases were known for mechanics as general without emphashizing speed. And known for strategy of course.
Conclusion
The players who dominated BW will regain their strengths in SC2 when they get experience and proper muscle memory. They dont really have "insane APM" so they will be back on top if they get the "expertise" because that was the point of their mechanical genius. I never checked their efficient APM but im pretty sure its ridiculously high alleviating the difference of lower All-click APM. When you watch slower BW players you see almost close to 0 redundancy in their clicks, so despite lower all-click APM they were capable of playing and even dominating twice as fast (all APM) players.
That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'.
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On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 19:36 bgx wrote:
Bisu also was 2v2 player. Im not sure why are we discussing this. Top BW players were not actually "faster" they were actually slower in general. But they were talented so their slower APM was worth more due to their efficiency, experience, and strategy.
BW apm(realtime) was actually inflated by about 30% compared to sc2.
Points in case : Stork, Savior (200-250 apm BW)
Bisu, Fanta 250-300 apm but exceling in multitasking
Flash 250-300 exceling in macro
Jaedong 350-400
Nada was fast like 300-400 apm.
then there are many players with +300 + 400 average apm without titles etc.
Movie with like 150-200 apm (one of the lowest) was actually OSL finalist.
Bw was not really about being fastest but about efficiency and smarts. Yes the lowest acceptable speed was higher than for SC2. But every progamer/ good amateur pretty much had minimum required long ago.
So if u expect that TBLS will rock your apm meters prepare to be dissapointed, well only jaedong maybe.
The strongest players in BW history barring few cases were known for mechanics as general without emphashizing speed. And known for strategy of course.
Conclusion
The players who dominated BW will regain their strengths in SC2 when they get experience and proper muscle memory. They dont really have "insane APM" so they will be back on top if they get the "expertise" because that was the point of their mechanical genius. I never checked their efficient APM but im pretty sure its ridiculously high alleviating the difference of lower All-click APM. When you watch slower BW players you see almost close to 0 redundancy in their clicks, so despite lower all-click APM they were capable of playing and even dominating twice as fast (all APM) players. That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'.
Well there are players of DRG apm in BW. Its still unclear what type of apm all those bw players will have in sc2 so its all speculating. But yes there was general myth that BW player = extreme APM which in many cases is false. But i tried to make a point that BW/SC2 mechanics cant be compared with flat numbers. There are players extremely fast and when you watch their gameplay NOT from fpvod you dont see it and vice versa.
About DRG, his FPvod gave me similar feeling to watching JD in bw fpvods. Which of course is praiseworthy. He is probably the best mechanical (or one of the best) player of SC2 generation.
edit: Jeezus so many mistakes.
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Brood war obviously required more APM to be good. You can't have good macro in bw with less than (arbitrary guess) 180 apm. You need that apm to select your command centers, build workers, select created workers, order them to mine, select 8 barracks individually, tell each barrack to make a marine individually. If you have an army of 48 units, you need 4 control groups, going 1a, 2a, 3a, 4a every 5-10 seconds (at the minimum), ................ So it's pretty obvious that bw has a higher apm treshold than sc2. But you can get as high apm as you want in either game. Discussing apm is pointless anyway, watch the game and let the better player win.
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On July 06 2012 16:24 Fragile51 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 13:17 Zocat wrote:On July 06 2012 05:32 sGs.Kal_rA wrote:For everyone saying HOTS will be a full reset allowing Kespa players to catch up: were only part way through this proleague season. If the beta comes out tomorrow (which it very well could  ) we dunno if kespa will drop WOL and pick up HOTS beta. If they stick to WOL everyone else will pick up on HOTS and Kespa will still be a little behind. If they switch over to HOTS midseason... And all GSL players will drop WoL for HotS immediatly, since there are no WoL tournaments around atm. Sounds logical!  It took KESPA 2 years to approve WoL as an e-sports title, i dunno why people think they will pick up HOTS without a hitch :p
It's either SC2 HotS or make LoL their next big thing. they can't afford to stay a constant 2 years behind. I respect the BW players, obviously very good at RTS games, but HotS is the best chance they have at catching up by leaps and bounds.
You also have to remember that young people are probably not going to be starting at BW anymore. I find it hard to believe the next Flash isn't kicking ass playing WoL at like 10 years old right now, and he doesn't care about dominating, he cares about playing a fun game, and this fun game has an expansion coming out.
Don't have to like SC2, but for the moment that's what we got, and that's what people who like RTS games are going to get good at if they want to compete. This means HotS is the next logical step.
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On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote:
That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'.
DRG had 650ish sc2 apm at MLG... which is about 900 Brood war APM, so...
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On July 06 2012 21:57 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote:
That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'. DRG had 650ish sc2 apm at MLG... which is about 900 Brood war APM, so...
900 action per minute... yeah.....
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EPT
