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sounds like a lot of fun, hope ill be able to catch it or possibly see some vods
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On July 06 2012 21:57 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote:
That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'. DRG had 650ish sc2 apm at MLG... which is about 900 Brood war APM, so...
So unbelievably wrong, there's really no good response to this. All I can say is don't try to compare APM in SC2 to APM in BW when the mechanics are so vastly different and certainly don't call it "Brood war APM".
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On July 07 2012 01:44 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 21:57 Yonnua wrote:On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote:
That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'. DRG had 650ish sc2 apm at MLG... which is about 900 Brood war APM, so... O.o that seems physically impossible. 900 apm is 15 actions per second...
Any claim over about 9.5 actions per second triggers makes me really skeptical. Olympic sprinters average 160ms response time, and get down to 109ms only 1 in a 1000 starts. The only way this is even remotely plausible is if the increased length from brain-to-legs vs brain-to-fingers is having a significant effect on the times required to transmit an action potential through your nervous system.
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On July 07 2012 04:09 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 02:04 Huragius wrote:On July 07 2012 00:40 sluggaslamoo wrote:On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote:On July 06 2012 19:36 bgx wrote:
Bisu also was 2v2 player. Im not sure why are we discussing this. Top BW players were not actually "faster" they were actually slower in general. But they were talented so their slower APM was worth more due to their efficiency, experience, and strategy.
BW apm(realtime) was actually inflated by about 30% compared to sc2.
Points in case : Stork, Savior (200-250 apm BW)
Bisu, Fanta 250-300 apm but exceling in multitasking
Flash 250-300 exceling in macro
Jaedong 350-400
Nada was fast like 300-400 apm.
then there are many players with +300 + 400 average apm without titles etc.
Movie with like 150-200 apm (one of the lowest) was actually OSL finalist.
Bw was not really about being fastest but about efficiency and smarts. Yes the lowest acceptable speed was higher than for SC2. But every progamer/ good amateur pretty much had minimum required long ago.
So if u expect that TBLS will rock your apm meters prepare to be dissapointed, well only jaedong maybe.
The strongest players in BW history barring few cases were known for mechanics as general without emphashizing speed. And known for strategy of course.
Conclusion
The players who dominated BW will regain their strengths in SC2 when they get experience and proper muscle memory. They dont really have "insane APM" so they will be back on top if they get the "expertise" because that was the point of their mechanical genius. I never checked their efficient APM but im pretty sure its ridiculously high alleviating the difference of lower All-click APM. When you watch slower BW players you see almost close to 0 redundancy in their clicks, so despite lower all-click APM they were capable of playing and even dominating twice as fast (all APM) players. That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'. Its probably more to do with SC2 fans going omg 350 apm! And BW fans being unimpressed by that.  I think SC2 has a higher apm requirement, simply because there is less you can do with micro, strategy and positioning. That's why the top SC2 players have such high apm. When you are micro-ing units hard, your apm actually goes down, because you are trying to do irreparable damage that will compensate for your slip in macro/tech timing. There are some freaks out there with tons of apm, HerO, Peak Bisu (used to avg ~450, he slowed down a lot to ~350, but became better as a result), Nada, Jangbi, Jaedong, Flash on occasion (his multitasking isn't that great though).Its also true that a lot of the top BW players had very low apm like Movie, Stork, iloveoov and Savior. I don't think we will see that as much in SC2. iloveoov and Savior were massively dominant in their time, with such low apm. ? I don't get the bold part at all. Flash multitasking is pretty damn good (if not one of the best), otherwise he wouldn't have such a good TvT win ratio (TvT required an incredible amount of multitasking skills in order to compete at highest level in BW). Compared to the top pros, he's really not. That's why Flash tries to reduce games down to a strategic level, by doing greedy builds and having very solid build branches and timing attacks. If he had top level multitasking he wouldn't need to do that, he could just open standard. In the SPL finals SKT was very smart in designing builds that brought Flash away from strategic play and reduced it to a multitasking game. Flash lost both of those games because he simply couldn't keep up in mechanics and got out-macroed. Play a standard game and Flash will destroy you with strategic play, consistently cause mayhem from the get-go and he can no longer use strategy to his advantage. Its actually surprising how much weaker Flash becomes when he is under constant pressure.
I recall reading Team Liquid for the first time in 2009 or so and some people complained that the game had degenerated into allowing boring macro robots who are purely dependent on mechanics to dominate, case in point: Flash.  It reminds me of IdrA dominating foreign competition two years ago, there were some opinions that his understanding of good macro should not allow him to win every game and that creativity should be valued higher. I would always root against IdrA too because his victories seemed so joyless, just solid execution into 'magically' having more units than the opponent, it's not so flashy. I don't know the Brood War players too well, is Flash one of those people that tends to just win games and you can't really tell why?
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On July 07 2012 06:38 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 04:09 sluggaslamoo wrote:On July 07 2012 02:04 Huragius wrote:On July 07 2012 00:40 sluggaslamoo wrote:On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote:On July 06 2012 19:36 bgx wrote:
Bisu also was 2v2 player. Im not sure why are we discussing this. Top BW players were not actually "faster" they were actually slower in general. But they were talented so their slower APM was worth more due to their efficiency, experience, and strategy.
BW apm(realtime) was actually inflated by about 30% compared to sc2.
Points in case : Stork, Savior (200-250 apm BW)
Bisu, Fanta 250-300 apm but exceling in multitasking
Flash 250-300 exceling in macro
Jaedong 350-400
Nada was fast like 300-400 apm.
then there are many players with +300 + 400 average apm without titles etc.
Movie with like 150-200 apm (one of the lowest) was actually OSL finalist.
Bw was not really about being fastest but about efficiency and smarts. Yes the lowest acceptable speed was higher than for SC2. But every progamer/ good amateur pretty much had minimum required long ago.
So if u expect that TBLS will rock your apm meters prepare to be dissapointed, well only jaedong maybe.
The strongest players in BW history barring few cases were known for mechanics as general without emphashizing speed. And known for strategy of course.
Conclusion
The players who dominated BW will regain their strengths in SC2 when they get experience and proper muscle memory. They dont really have "insane APM" so they will be back on top if they get the "expertise" because that was the point of their mechanical genius. I never checked their efficient APM but im pretty sure its ridiculously high alleviating the difference of lower All-click APM. When you watch slower BW players you see almost close to 0 redundancy in their clicks, so despite lower all-click APM they were capable of playing and even dominating twice as fast (all APM) players. That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'. Its probably more to do with SC2 fans going omg 350 apm! And BW fans being unimpressed by that. I think SC2 has a higher apm requirement, simply because there is less you can do with micro, strategy and positioning. That's why the top SC2 players have such high apm. When you are micro-ing units hard, your apm actually goes down, because you are trying to do irreparable damage that will compensate for your slip in macro/tech timing. There are some freaks out there with tons of apm, HerO, Peak Bisu (used to avg ~450, he slowed down a lot to ~350, but became better as a result), Nada, Jangbi, Jaedong, Flash on occasion (his multitasking isn't that great though).Its also true that a lot of the top BW players had very low apm like Movie, Stork, iloveoov and Savior. I don't think we will see that as much in SC2. iloveoov and Savior were massively dominant in their time, with such low apm. ? I don't get the bold part at all. Flash multitasking is pretty damn good (if not one of the best), otherwise he wouldn't have such a good TvT win ratio (TvT required an incredible amount of multitasking skills in order to compete at highest level in BW). Compared to the top pros, he's really not. That's why Flash tries to reduce games down to a strategic level, by doing greedy builds and having very solid build branches and timing attacks. If he had top level multitasking he wouldn't need to do that, he could just open standard. In the SPL finals SKT was very smart in designing builds that brought Flash away from strategic play and reduced it to a multitasking game. Flash lost both of those games because he simply couldn't keep up in mechanics and got out-macroed. Play a standard game and Flash will destroy you with strategic play, consistently cause mayhem from the get-go and he can no longer use strategy to his advantage. Its actually surprising how much weaker Flash becomes when he is under constant pressure. I recall reading Team Liquid for the first time in 2009 or so and some people complained that the game had degenerated into allowing boring macro robots who are purely dependent on mechanics to dominate, case in point: Flash. It reminds me of IdrA dominating foreign competition two years ago, there were some opinions that his understanding of good macro should not allow him to win every game and that creativity should be valued higher. I would always root against IdrA too because his victories seemed so joyless, just solid execution into 'magically' having more units than the opponent, it's not so flashy. I don't know the Brood War players too well, is Flash one of those people that tends to just win games and you can't really tell why?
You were one of the few cheering for IdrA back then?
I remember there were a lot of turncoats coming out when he started winning stuff. No one ever questioned Greg's mechanics. They just questioned everything else, lol.
Oh and for the other guy. 900 apm is actually not that difficult to manage. I know a few guys who could do that in very short games, albeit they would play much worse than what they're capable of because the whole focus was on apm, i.e. 6/9 pool.
Like I said earlier, apm means very little and I wonder why we're still talking about it?
There are only a few scenarios where it's significant when scouts are looking at you. Other than that, don't worry about it.
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On July 07 2012 06:31 Bombadil819 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 01:44 Roe wrote:On July 06 2012 21:57 Yonnua wrote:On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote:
That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'. DRG had 650ish sc2 apm at MLG... which is about 900 Brood war APM, so... O.o that seems physically impossible. 900 apm is 15 actions per second... Any claim over about 9.5 actions per second triggers makes me really skeptical. Olympic sprinters average 160ms response time, and get down to 109ms only 1 in a 1000 starts. The only way this is even remotely plausible is if the increased length from brain-to-legs vs brain-to-fingers is having a significant effect on the times required to transmit an action potential through your nervous system.
I don't understand how you can compare the reaction time of sprinters to how fast gamers can mash buttons. It seems like apples and oranges to me.
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On July 07 2012 01:57 GuitarBizarre wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 01:50 sCCrooked wrote:On July 07 2012 00:40 sluggaslamoo wrote:On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote:On July 06 2012 19:36 bgx wrote:
Bisu also was 2v2 player. Im not sure why are we discussing this. Top BW players were not actually "faster" they were actually slower in general. But they were talented so their slower APM was worth more due to their efficiency, experience, and strategy.
BW apm(realtime) was actually inflated by about 30% compared to sc2.
Points in case : Stork, Savior (200-250 apm BW)
Bisu, Fanta 250-300 apm but exceling in multitasking
Flash 250-300 exceling in macro
Jaedong 350-400
Nada was fast like 300-400 apm.
then there are many players with +300 + 400 average apm without titles etc.
Movie with like 150-200 apm (one of the lowest) was actually OSL finalist.
Bw was not really about being fastest but about efficiency and smarts. Yes the lowest acceptable speed was higher than for SC2. But every progamer/ good amateur pretty much had minimum required long ago.
So if u expect that TBLS will rock your apm meters prepare to be dissapointed, well only jaedong maybe.
The strongest players in BW history barring few cases were known for mechanics as general without emphashizing speed. And known for strategy of course.
Conclusion
The players who dominated BW will regain their strengths in SC2 when they get experience and proper muscle memory. They dont really have "insane APM" so they will be back on top if they get the "expertise" because that was the point of their mechanical genius. I never checked their efficient APM but im pretty sure its ridiculously high alleviating the difference of lower All-click APM. When you watch slower BW players you see almost close to 0 redundancy in their clicks, so despite lower all-click APM they were capable of playing and even dominating twice as fast (all APM) players. That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'. Its probably more to do with SC2 fans going omg 350 apm! And BW fans being unimpressed by that. I think SC2 has a higher apm requirement, simply because there is less you can do with micro, strategy and positioning. That's why the top SC2 players have such high apm. When you are micro-ing units hard, your apm actually goes down, because you are trying to do irreparable damage that will compensate for your slip in macro/tech timing. There are some freaks out there with tons of apm, HerO, Peak Bisu (used to avg ~450, he slowed down a lot to ~350, but became better as a result), Nada, Jangbi, Jaedong, Flash on occasion (his multitasking isn't that great though). Its also true that a lot of the top BW players had very low apm like Movie, Stork, iloveoov and Savior. I don't think we will see that as much in SC2. iloveoov and Savior were massively dominant in their time, with such low apm. APM is less important in sc2 in general because there's just plain old less to do. When you have 1 hotkey that can potentially contain your entire army, just 1 command given to that hotkey means it counts an action for each and every unit in that group. Same thing with multiple-building selection. The reason BW players will not be impressed with 350 is because of all the S-class progamers telling us insider information such as that progamers consider 350 to be the absolute bar-zero for even being able to play in progamer leagues. Although there have been exceptions (lower apm than 350 for you slow folk, come on keep up!), these pros number less than just a single 1% of total people in the pro-gamer level scene. Also while you guys can inflate the APM by "compensating" for real-time discrepancies and these other silly methods, BW took place in "real-time" while still being the 2 settings above "Normal" and those people were usually around 400 apm. I'm not sure how its "inflating" the APM, to just times it by 1.38, when we KNOW the game under-reports APM by that same amount. All the exercise does is translate a Starcraft 2 "Game time" APM figure, into a Starcraft 2 "Real Time" APM figure. If I sit down and perform one action every 60 seconds on the Starcraft 2 game clock, the ingame APM will report 1 exactly. But my actual APM would be 1.38 If we are calculating out that discrepancy to give the real number of button presses per minute, and BW APM has always been the real number of button presses per minute, then all that does is make it so we are comparing the same thing across both.
Have you ever played BW? Compare clicking on one hotkey with all your production facilities and pressing down a button to having to manually click across multiple production buildings to produce your units and tell me which one is more difficult. Even if you do calculate the game time difference, they aren't the same. A noob playing the game for the first time could get high apm off macro, but in BW it takes much more mechanical skill to do the same.
In any case, an APM number alone is meaningless without the context. If you want to flaunt speed then the best way to do that is through FPV, and certainly a snapshot of someone hitting high APM for a few seconds is utterly meaningless.
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On July 07 2012 06:54 Kordox wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 06:31 Bombadil819 wrote:On July 07 2012 01:44 Roe wrote:On July 06 2012 21:57 Yonnua wrote:On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote:
That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'. DRG had 650ish sc2 apm at MLG... which is about 900 Brood war APM, so... O.o that seems physically impossible. 900 apm is 15 actions per second... Any claim over about 9.5 actions per second triggers makes me really skeptical. Olympic sprinters average 160ms response time, and get down to 109ms only 1 in a 1000 starts. The only way this is even remotely plausible is if the increased length from brain-to-legs vs brain-to-fingers is having a significant effect on the times required to transmit an action potential through your nervous system. I don't understand how you can compare the reaction time of sprinters to how fast gamers can mash buttons. It seems like apples and oranges to me.
Action potentials travel at a finite speed through your nervous system, and there are pretty well documented limits on that front. I used Olympic athletes because they represent a pinnacle of human athleticism (and speed of motion). Take an introductory psych course or two if you want to learn about your nervous system, it's actually pretty cool.
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On July 07 2012 01:39 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 01:35 GuitarBizarre wrote:On July 06 2012 23:02 Grumbels wrote:On July 06 2012 22:54 Yonnua wrote:On July 06 2012 22:35 bgx wrote:On July 06 2012 21:57 Yonnua wrote:On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote:
That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'. DRG had 650ish sc2 apm at MLG... which is about 900 Brood war APM, so... I think you read some statistics wrong. Or you mean spike apm, which imho is weirdly calculated in sc2 because ive seen many people already beating July BW record multiple times during normal sc2 micro. I'm talking about a couple minute long spike late game where he was multitasking and microing a few battles at once. Maybe what happened was that DRG had high apm, then some people converted it to brood war apm, then some people thought that number was sc2 apm and converted it again. He's talking about the observer bringing up the APM tab on stream. Artosis actually commented and said "Thats...the most APM we've ever seen" at the time. I was at Manchester Barcraft watching those games. IIRC the APM tab they brought up showed 650~ APM. Now obviously thats 650APM blizzard time, which you times by 1.38 to get the number of actual keypresses occuring in that time. 1.38 times 650 = 897. Thats pretty fucking fast, even by Broodwar standards. Problem is also, with Zerg you hold down a key to produce units and that counts as many actions im pretty sure. He could have banked a ton of larva and spammed out 350 lings. You can't do this in BW except with holding down a ctrl group which you'd never do unless in the first min of the game.
Just confirmed this. Peaked at 1400 "APM" real-time when morphing 250 banelings. Don't know if that's what happened with DRG but it's entirely possible.
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On July 07 2012 07:22 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 01:39 sluggaslamoo wrote:On July 07 2012 01:35 GuitarBizarre wrote:On July 06 2012 23:02 Grumbels wrote:On July 06 2012 22:54 Yonnua wrote:On July 06 2012 22:35 bgx wrote:On July 06 2012 21:57 Yonnua wrote:On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote:
That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'. DRG had 650ish sc2 apm at MLG... which is about 900 Brood war APM, so... I think you read some statistics wrong. Or you mean spike apm, which imho is weirdly calculated in sc2 because ive seen many people already beating July BW record multiple times during normal sc2 micro. I'm talking about a couple minute long spike late game where he was multitasking and microing a few battles at once. Maybe what happened was that DRG had high apm, then some people converted it to brood war apm, then some people thought that number was sc2 apm and converted it again. He's talking about the observer bringing up the APM tab on stream. Artosis actually commented and said "Thats...the most APM we've ever seen" at the time. I was at Manchester Barcraft watching those games. IIRC the APM tab they brought up showed 650~ APM. Now obviously thats 650APM blizzard time, which you times by 1.38 to get the number of actual keypresses occuring in that time. 1.38 times 650 = 897. Thats pretty fucking fast, even by Broodwar standards. Problem is also, with Zerg you hold down a key to produce units and that counts as many actions im pretty sure. He could have banked a ton of larva and spammed out 350 lings. You can't do this in BW except with holding down a ctrl group which you'd never do unless in the first min of the game. Just confirmed this. Peaked at 1400 "APM" real-time when morphing 250 banelings. Don't know if that's what happened with DRG but it's entirely possible.
So by this, it sounds like if you have 10 barracks hotkeyed, select them, and make a marine in each of them, that is considered 10 actions?
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omg, shut up about apm!
Has anybody got information about how to watch this?
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I'm with Natespank on this.
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On July 07 2012 06:38 Grumbels wrote:I recall reading Team Liquid for the first time in 2009 or so and some people complained that the game had degenerated into allowing boring macro robots who are purely dependent on mechanics to dominate, case in point: Flash. It reminds me of IdrA dominating foreign competition two years ago, there were some opinions that his understanding of good macro should not allow him to win every game and that creativity should be valued higher. I would always root against IdrA too because his victories seemed so joyless, just solid execution into 'magically' having more units than the opponent, it's not so flashy. I don't know the Brood War players too well, is Flash one of those people that tends to just win games and you can't really tell why?
Flash is a versatile player and that's why he's so dangerous. When he chooses to do cheese or timing attacks, they are incredibly vicious and insanely microed. When he goes for economy and upgrades... if opponent doesn't disrupt him then his macro just overwhelms. He favors economy, but every facet of his game is equally strong.
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How the heck can we watch this?
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On July 07 2012 07:09 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 01:57 GuitarBizarre wrote:On July 07 2012 01:50 sCCrooked wrote:On July 07 2012 00:40 sluggaslamoo wrote:On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote:On July 06 2012 19:36 bgx wrote:
Bisu also was 2v2 player. Im not sure why are we discussing this. Top BW players were not actually "faster" they were actually slower in general. But they were talented so their slower APM was worth more due to their efficiency, experience, and strategy.
BW apm(realtime) was actually inflated by about 30% compared to sc2.
Points in case : Stork, Savior (200-250 apm BW)
Bisu, Fanta 250-300 apm but exceling in multitasking
Flash 250-300 exceling in macro
Jaedong 350-400
Nada was fast like 300-400 apm.
then there are many players with +300 + 400 average apm without titles etc.
Movie with like 150-200 apm (one of the lowest) was actually OSL finalist.
Bw was not really about being fastest but about efficiency and smarts. Yes the lowest acceptable speed was higher than for SC2. But every progamer/ good amateur pretty much had minimum required long ago.
So if u expect that TBLS will rock your apm meters prepare to be dissapointed, well only jaedong maybe.
The strongest players in BW history barring few cases were known for mechanics as general without emphashizing speed. And known for strategy of course.
Conclusion
The players who dominated BW will regain their strengths in SC2 when they get experience and proper muscle memory. They dont really have "insane APM" so they will be back on top if they get the "expertise" because that was the point of their mechanical genius. I never checked their efficient APM but im pretty sure its ridiculously high alleviating the difference of lower All-click APM. When you watch slower BW players you see almost close to 0 redundancy in their clicks, so despite lower all-click APM they were capable of playing and even dominating twice as fast (all APM) players. That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'. Its probably more to do with SC2 fans going omg 350 apm! And BW fans being unimpressed by that. I think SC2 has a higher apm requirement, simply because there is less you can do with micro, strategy and positioning. That's why the top SC2 players have such high apm. When you are micro-ing units hard, your apm actually goes down, because you are trying to do irreparable damage that will compensate for your slip in macro/tech timing. There are some freaks out there with tons of apm, HerO, Peak Bisu (used to avg ~450, he slowed down a lot to ~350, but became better as a result), Nada, Jangbi, Jaedong, Flash on occasion (his multitasking isn't that great though). Its also true that a lot of the top BW players had very low apm like Movie, Stork, iloveoov and Savior. I don't think we will see that as much in SC2. iloveoov and Savior were massively dominant in their time, with such low apm. APM is less important in sc2 in general because there's just plain old less to do. When you have 1 hotkey that can potentially contain your entire army, just 1 command given to that hotkey means it counts an action for each and every unit in that group. Same thing with multiple-building selection. The reason BW players will not be impressed with 350 is because of all the S-class progamers telling us insider information such as that progamers consider 350 to be the absolute bar-zero for even being able to play in progamer leagues. Although there have been exceptions (lower apm than 350 for you slow folk, come on keep up!), these pros number less than just a single 1% of total people in the pro-gamer level scene. Also while you guys can inflate the APM by "compensating" for real-time discrepancies and these other silly methods, BW took place in "real-time" while still being the 2 settings above "Normal" and those people were usually around 400 apm. I'm not sure how its "inflating" the APM, to just times it by 1.38, when we KNOW the game under-reports APM by that same amount. All the exercise does is translate a Starcraft 2 "Game time" APM figure, into a Starcraft 2 "Real Time" APM figure. If I sit down and perform one action every 60 seconds on the Starcraft 2 game clock, the ingame APM will report 1 exactly. But my actual APM would be 1.38 If we are calculating out that discrepancy to give the real number of button presses per minute, and BW APM has always been the real number of button presses per minute, then all that does is make it so we are comparing the same thing across both. Have you ever played BW? Compare clicking on one hotkey with all your production facilities and pressing down a button to having to manually click across multiple production buildings to produce your units and tell me which one is more difficult. Even if you do calculate the game time difference, they aren't the same. A noob playing the game for the first time could get high apm off macro, but in BW it takes much more mechanical skill to do the same. In any case, an APM number alone is meaningless without the context. If you want to flaunt speed then the best way to do that is through FPV, and certainly a snapshot of someone hitting high APM for a few seconds is utterly meaningless.
I don't recall ever making the claim that Broodwar wasn't a game with an inferior interface.
I do remember making the claim that APM, being "Actions Per Minute", and not "Whatever arbitrary set of actions itsmedudeman decrees qualifies as APM", meant we were comparing the number of times per minute top players were issuing commands of any type.
Now, given that the game doesn't magically lie to us and start reporting hotkey selection and unit production as more than one action per minute, APM is still exactly what it was before - A measurement of how many times a pro player can actually hit a button and do a thing. Meaning the numbers are comparable. The fact that the APM is now distributed across different "things" makes no practical difference to how this works.
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On July 07 2012 08:59 Mothra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 06:38 Grumbels wrote:I recall reading Team Liquid for the first time in 2009 or so and some people complained that the game had degenerated into allowing boring macro robots who are purely dependent on mechanics to dominate, case in point: Flash. It reminds me of IdrA dominating foreign competition two years ago, there were some opinions that his understanding of good macro should not allow him to win every game and that creativity should be valued higher. I would always root against IdrA too because his victories seemed so joyless, just solid execution into 'magically' having more units than the opponent, it's not so flashy. I don't know the Brood War players too well, is Flash one of those people that tends to just win games and you can't really tell why? Flash is a versatile player and that's why he's so dangerous. When he chooses to do cheese or timing attacks, they are incredibly vicious and insanely microed. When he goes for economy and upgrades... if opponent doesn't disrupt him then his macro just overwhelms. He favors economy, but every facet of his game is equally strong.
Its not really so much that Flash played 'standard' back in the 2009 days, I wouldn't say his play was 'standard' at all in terms of strategy. Prior to his EVER OSL champ against Movie and after his DAUM OSL days, all he did was turtling his ass off. And he got taken advantage of that so bad as players would double expand and when he reaches 200/200, others economy is so far ahead that it didn't matter anymore.
But then in EVER OSL, he pretty much ForGG'd his way into winning it. He would do all those weird timing to take advantage of the popular 3 Hatch Mutalisks play still used from sAviOr. Zergs couldn't do shit against it and what was interesting is that he played nothing but Zergs on his way vs Movie. The Zerg race as a whole couldn't adapt to it at all except going for Mutalisks at every single game against him. Then vs Movie on the final, the Protoss threw away his mental edge by suiciding recalls after recalls. If Movie had won the first game, the momentum was going to be something else. In the last game, Flash bunker rushed a Fast Expandd Protoss.
Because of lack of statistics from his Protoss plays in the indies, no one was sure about his strategies beside defending against recalls/shuttle reaver plays and bunking rushing. Flash took advantage of that greatly by still taking risks in Fast Expanding as a Terran vs Protoss but he wouldn't wait until 200/200 to push out. The Protosses out there still abjured to the standard mass expanding play against him hoping of seeing turtle. But then you have to know that you are opened to weaknesses as you spread out your ground, so Flash went for agression, stop the economy before it goes rampant.
And later on, Coaches were either dodging Flash by sending some noob players or they prepared extra hard and sniped him in the Ace match.
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On July 07 2012 07:17 Bombadil819 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 06:54 Kordox wrote:On July 07 2012 06:31 Bombadil819 wrote:On July 07 2012 01:44 Roe wrote:On July 06 2012 21:57 Yonnua wrote:On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote:
That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'. DRG had 650ish sc2 apm at MLG... which is about 900 Brood war APM, so... O.o that seems physically impossible. 900 apm is 15 actions per second... Any claim over about 9.5 actions per second triggers makes me really skeptical. Olympic sprinters average 160ms response time, and get down to 109ms only 1 in a 1000 starts. The only way this is even remotely plausible is if the increased length from brain-to-legs vs brain-to-fingers is having a significant effect on the times required to transmit an action potential through your nervous system. I don't understand how you can compare the reaction time of sprinters to how fast gamers can mash buttons. It seems like apples and oranges to me. Action potentials travel at a finite speed through your nervous system, and there are pretty well documented limits on that front. I used Olympic athletes because they represent a pinnacle of human athleticism (and speed of motion). Take an introductory psych course or two if you want to learn about your nervous system, it's actually pretty cool.
an "action" is just a keystroke. you can easily reach 30 keystrokes a second just by mashing 8 fingers on your keyboard.
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stupid fight over apm how old are you guys 8? .... I hope to see effort vs drg that would be a cool match :D
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On July 07 2012 09:20 GuitarBizarre wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 07:09 Itsmedudeman wrote:On July 07 2012 01:57 GuitarBizarre wrote:On July 07 2012 01:50 sCCrooked wrote:On July 07 2012 00:40 sluggaslamoo wrote:On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote:On July 06 2012 19:36 bgx wrote:
Bisu also was 2v2 player. Im not sure why are we discussing this. Top BW players were not actually "faster" they were actually slower in general. But they were talented so their slower APM was worth more due to their efficiency, experience, and strategy.
BW apm(realtime) was actually inflated by about 30% compared to sc2.
Points in case : Stork, Savior (200-250 apm BW)
Bisu, Fanta 250-300 apm but exceling in multitasking
Flash 250-300 exceling in macro
Jaedong 350-400
Nada was fast like 300-400 apm.
then there are many players with +300 + 400 average apm without titles etc.
Movie with like 150-200 apm (one of the lowest) was actually OSL finalist.
Bw was not really about being fastest but about efficiency and smarts. Yes the lowest acceptable speed was higher than for SC2. But every progamer/ good amateur pretty much had minimum required long ago.
So if u expect that TBLS will rock your apm meters prepare to be dissapointed, well only jaedong maybe.
The strongest players in BW history barring few cases were known for mechanics as general without emphashizing speed. And known for strategy of course.
Conclusion
The players who dominated BW will regain their strengths in SC2 when they get experience and proper muscle memory. They dont really have "insane APM" so they will be back on top if they get the "expertise" because that was the point of their mechanical genius. I never checked their efficient APM but im pretty sure its ridiculously high alleviating the difference of lower All-click APM. When you watch slower BW players you see almost close to 0 redundancy in their clicks, so despite lower all-click APM they were capable of playing and even dominating twice as fast (all APM) players. That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'. Its probably more to do with SC2 fans going omg 350 apm! And BW fans being unimpressed by that. I think SC2 has a higher apm requirement, simply because there is less you can do with micro, strategy and positioning. That's why the top SC2 players have such high apm. When you are micro-ing units hard, your apm actually goes down, because you are trying to do irreparable damage that will compensate for your slip in macro/tech timing. There are some freaks out there with tons of apm, HerO, Peak Bisu (used to avg ~450, he slowed down a lot to ~350, but became better as a result), Nada, Jangbi, Jaedong, Flash on occasion (his multitasking isn't that great though). Its also true that a lot of the top BW players had very low apm like Movie, Stork, iloveoov and Savior. I don't think we will see that as much in SC2. iloveoov and Savior were massively dominant in their time, with such low apm. APM is less important in sc2 in general because there's just plain old less to do. When you have 1 hotkey that can potentially contain your entire army, just 1 command given to that hotkey means it counts an action for each and every unit in that group. Same thing with multiple-building selection. The reason BW players will not be impressed with 350 is because of all the S-class progamers telling us insider information such as that progamers consider 350 to be the absolute bar-zero for even being able to play in progamer leagues. Although there have been exceptions (lower apm than 350 for you slow folk, come on keep up!), these pros number less than just a single 1% of total people in the pro-gamer level scene. Also while you guys can inflate the APM by "compensating" for real-time discrepancies and these other silly methods, BW took place in "real-time" while still being the 2 settings above "Normal" and those people were usually around 400 apm. I'm not sure how its "inflating" the APM, to just times it by 1.38, when we KNOW the game under-reports APM by that same amount. All the exercise does is translate a Starcraft 2 "Game time" APM figure, into a Starcraft 2 "Real Time" APM figure. If I sit down and perform one action every 60 seconds on the Starcraft 2 game clock, the ingame APM will report 1 exactly. But my actual APM would be 1.38 If we are calculating out that discrepancy to give the real number of button presses per minute, and BW APM has always been the real number of button presses per minute, then all that does is make it so we are comparing the same thing across both. Have you ever played BW? Compare clicking on one hotkey with all your production facilities and pressing down a button to having to manually click across multiple production buildings to produce your units and tell me which one is more difficult. Even if you do calculate the game time difference, they aren't the same. A noob playing the game for the first time could get high apm off macro, but in BW it takes much more mechanical skill to do the same. In any case, an APM number alone is meaningless without the context. If you want to flaunt speed then the best way to do that is through FPV, and certainly a snapshot of someone hitting high APM for a few seconds is utterly meaningless. I don't recall ever making the claim that Broodwar wasn't a game with an inferior interface. I do remember making the claim that APM, being "Actions Per Minute", and not "Whatever arbitrary set of actions itsmedudeman decrees qualifies as APM", meant we were comparing the number of times per minute top players were issuing commands of any type. Now, given that the game doesn't magically lie to us and start reporting hotkey selection and unit production as more than one action per minute, APM is still exactly what it was before - A measurement of how many times a pro player can actually hit a button and do a thing. Meaning the numbers are comparable. The fact that the APM is now distributed across different "things" makes no practical difference to how this works.
Umm, given what you said that "we're comparing the same thing across both" we really aren't as it's comparing very easy actions vs. difficult actions. And in the context of what we're discussing that's the only thing that matters. Without it it's meaningless so why are you even trying to argue that? Otherwise I could go into a game and spam up 1000 APM and call that an achievement. SC2 APM can be inflated by easy APM, that's what the whole discussion was about. But if you want to say that apples are oranges because they're both fruits then uhh, ok cool.
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Another way of thinking of 15 actions per second is to think of typing at 180 wpm. Only the elite can type that, even when it's typing something from memory. And, that's just for 1 minute; to keep up that kinda pace for a longer duration is simply insane. It's crazy to me, because when you play SC, you only have 1 hand on the keyboard and you have to think... not sure how much effective apm is to be had through the mouse.
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EPT
