KeSPA vs GSL players cross-match - Page 19

On July 08 2012 00:29 Cuce wrote:
I'm not sure if you realize this but, as micro and apm goes we are much less forviging in sc2 compared to bw.

On July 08 2012 00:18 sluggaslamoo wrote:


Only if the player you are playing against is better than you. There is no point in taking a risk to gain an early economic lead if you can win convincingly playing safe which Flash did first 2 games. Flash was so much better than Effort at that point, that there was little reason to try to take a risk. The one who needed to take risks was Effort, and Flash needed to just defend until late game. Flash had 3 chances to play safe and just win, but he blew it, 3 times in a row.

Flash let Effort play the metagame, my point is Flash didn't need to do that, he gave too much credit to Effort, instead of just letting Effort bust his balls while Flash just sits back and ride his 10 star defense rating, thus nullifying the effects metagame could have on his play. I mean if you look at game 1 and 2, Effort just got beaten so badly by standard play, it was barely even looking to be a contest at that point. Flash allowed the finals to transition to a style of dice-roll game that evened the footing, good if you can't win with standard play, bad if you can (let alone easily).

For example, it makes sense to go 14CC against Jaedong who has much better late game even better than Flash's at that point. There is no point playing purely standard against Jaedong because you are shooting yourself in the foot. Flash shouldn't have gone 14CC against Effort for the same reason he shouldn't have taken any risks against Shine (and didn't) in the OSL, Flash could have easily blown his last OSL chances against Shine just like he did with Effort. He has obviously learned from his mistakes winning so convincingly against ZerO in the finals by taking less risks early game while still inventing a strategic snipe build.

Flash is extremely good at calculating odds, but then he makes several decision making blunders in game 3, 4, 5. Pushing out with a safe build against an allin in game 3, followed by unnecessary cheese that got scouted in game 4, followed by a unnecessary greed in game 5. To me that's tilt. Flash level headed, would have played like he did against Shine or ZerO in a Bo3/5.

On July 08 2012 00:59 corumjhaelen wrote:
Can someone explain me what people are debating here and what it has to do with the subject oO

On July 08 2012 00:59 corumjhaelen wrote:
Can someone explain me what people are debating here and what it has to do with the subject oO

On July 08 2012 00:36 sCCrooked wrote:


I'm not sure if you realize how incorrect you are by stating this.

On July 08 2012 00:58 TrainSamurai wrote:


Then again one of his strength is that he is always looking to win. We are only speculating at this point miracles do happen.

(memory of the timeline is kinda foggy). Flash's respect for efforts ability to comeback may have not been unfounded.

Flash: "I put effort in my group to get revenge"- gets killed by effort.
Flash: "I have achived enlightenment"-gets killed by effort next day.

Not to mention effort was a proleague monster not too long before the final.

On July 08 2012 01:13 sluggaslamoo wrote:


LOL I can't believe I forgot about that. I remember feeling sorry for Flash when he made that interview about achieving enlightenment only to get rolled by Effort. The dismantling of Flash iirc, the fake 2 hatch build was pretty funny too. Flash just had WTF written all over his face.

On July 08 2012 01:11 balosan wrote:


Agree micro misstakes are way more unforgiving in sc2 then in BW, in most of the games everything comes down to one deathball fight. So micro in this fight directly decides who will win the game.

On July 08 2012 06:17 Bareleon wrote:


You must of never watched a single pro sc2 match then. I watched many and many games there is a lot if back and forth action not one deathball decides the winner. We ere not in 2010 anymore. Those days are long gone. Now, sc2 is about who has the better unit control and micro.

I cant wait to see these guys try to micro a gigantic army when they get real good. And yes, even in the biggest armies, it still all comes down to unit control and micro to beat your opponent.

On July 08 2012 03:59 Shady Sands wrote:


Shortly before they had to play each other in the OSL finals, Effort was Flash's practice partner for his MSL finals versus Jaedong. Flash had to come up with a whole set of strategies to kill Jaedong, and then give Effort a whole week (the time between finding out Jaedong was his MSL finals opponent to the date of his OSL finals) to figure out how to counter them, and then, even then, Effort had to stretch out the series to 3-2 to win.

Flash went for the meta route in game 3 because he gets edges whenever he can. That's his style. Other players don't, and that's why Bisu, Stork, and Jaedong have winrates 5-10% below Flash. Flash is just a better thinker overall--and he has comparable multitask and macro with the rest. In a game as mechanically intensive as Brood War, thinking alone won't compensate so hard as to give a (comparatively) bad macro-er or micro-er that much more of a winrate. In sum, Flash's metagaming is not a crutch for not being able to keep up in multitask or mechanics, which is what you suggest it is. Instead, Flash's mindgames rely on the fact that he knows his skills are just as good, if not better than his opponent--and he knows his opponent knows, so he knows how his opponent will compensate.

To suggest that Flash is just really good at thinking up a build that he could win with if he just a-moved misses the point, really. Do you honestly know how hard it is to fake out another pro-gamer that is practicing on the same maps you are 10 hours a day? Don't you think they would have seen the build you're using at least at one time or another in their hundreds of practice games on the map? Don't you think that when Flash knows where to scout for a proxy robo, that other players could figure out what to scout for when looking for a proxy rax or a 4-fact timing push, or how to play the "I-know-what-he's-seen-of-my-base, so-this-is-probably-what-he's-doing" game? When the mechanics are about equal between all players, like at the top of Brood War, then it's those psychological edges that count, and Flash has that in spades. Other players don't.

On July 08 2012 13:48 sluggaslamoo wrote:


You need to read back a bit. The original point of the argument was Flash's mental strength, someone was saying that Flash and MVP were both the best players because of mental strength. I'm just saying that Flash is probably the most prone to tilt, he does have a lot of courage like going 14CC every game, but he also goes on tilt easily and makes a lot of slip ups. He even cried after losing in PL. Bisu, Jaedong and Effort all have much better stability.

Flash's mechanics are not as good as Jaedong's or Bisu's or Fantasy, nor even a lot of other players. Flash can macro perfectly when there is no action on the board, but so can everyone, its when shit hits the fan his macro, tech, expansion timings slip considerably. This is really obvious, especially in last PL finals where the coach was really smart in choosing aggression builds. Flash was late on tech, expansions, and often he was slipping up a lot in macro against Bisu/Fantasy.

On July 08 2012 14:45 lisward wrote:
I feel really sad for the BW pros, they have to train for two games, and they are probably under some form of pressure to perform in the sc2 scene, which is ridiculous because they've only been playing for what, three months?

On July 08 2012 14:29 Xiphos wrote:
Well to answer your question, most of Flash's win have been due his cheese succeeding and other players making stupid mistakes against him while holding on a very apparent advantage. Watch Bogus vs Flash from last night's game. Bogus was basically behind in the early as Flash had seen all his builds while still in the dark. But Bogus just played very standard, didn't overextend, expanded when safe, punished Flash's greed for double expanding later on.

Flash on a mechanical level isn't all that powerful, he relies on his plans to work. After his anti-carrier build, Fantasy have been inventing new strategies left and right vs Protoss and vs Zerg. Ex: MnMs into Mass Tanks (watch Proleague final vs Jaedong) and MnMs into Vulture into lategame mech later on (watch his game vs ZerO). Then Flash practice his asses off to emulate them.

By the way, at Flash vs Jaedong final, the non Nate MSL one, Jaedong just refused to change his strategy. Basically the games went like Flash 14 CC'd, Jaedong tried to stop it with Zerglings but couldn't because of the defensive nature of the Terran race and his third gets denied every single time because of bad economy leading into bad army production. Jaedong just wouldn't change his game plan and got a BO disadvantageous every single time.

And oh same fucking shit happened against Stork in the finals.

On July 08 2012 14:13 Shady Sands wrote:


Then tell me, why does Flash win more than any other player? Why does Flash have a positive head-to-head record versus Jaedong, Stork, Fantasy, and Bisu? Why does Flash have more gold medals than Bisu and Stork combined?

I'd like to see your proof of his "inferior stability" to the other members of TBLS. No cherry-picking--how about you just put up VODs from January 2010 to August 2010, of games from all 4 players--and then we can judge for ourselves who has the most "stable" play?

In the last PL finals the coach was really smart in choosing the map order. He chose the most P>T map to be played twice and also chose the matchup that Flash had practiced for the least to be played on Ground Zero. That's not indicative of finding some weakness in Flash's play; that's finding a weakness in the structure of Proleague playoffs itself (i.e. the 3rd or 4th place team has to go through multiple matches to get to the finals while the 1st place team only has to sit back and snipe them.)

Show me a video of where when "shit hits the fan" Flash's macro, tech, and expansion timings slip--and don't cherry pick a game where Flash gets blind countered in BO (such as a 9 pool vs 14cc) either, since everyone knows that you will be behind after playing SCVs versus Zerglings. Find a game with equal builds (no proxy gates, no eco cheese, just the "standard play" that you hold so sacred) with lots of harass. And prove to me Flash is the weaker player.

Find a game with equal builds (no proxy gates, no eco cheese, just the "standard play" that you hold so sacred) with lots of harass. And prove to me Flash is the weaker player.