On July 08 2012 14:45 lisward wrote: I feel really sad for the BW pros, they have to train for two games, and they are probably under some form of pressure to perform in the sc2 scene, which is ridiculous because they've only been playing for what, three months?
They've probably been practicing for 6months + easy
On July 08 2012 14:45 lisward wrote: I feel really sad for the BW pros, they have to train for two games, and they are probably under some form of pressure to perform in the sc2 scene, which is ridiculous because they've only been playing for what, three months?
They've probably been practicing for 6months + easy
Nope not 6 months. They have said in interviews they have only been playing for a couple months (so probably 3-4 now). But they have not been playing for 6 months.
On July 08 2012 00:29 Cuce wrote: I'm not sure if you realize this but, as micro and apm goes we are much less forviging in sc2 compared to bw.
I'm not sure if you realize how incorrect you are by stating this.
He's correct but he worded it in a stupid way. If you make one small mistake in SC2 it can be almost impossible to come back. In BW. If you make a mistake here and there you can make up for it in other areas. Flash himself has said this.
On July 08 2012 00:29 Cuce wrote: I'm not sure if you realize this but, as micro and apm goes we are much less forviging in sc2 compared to bw.
I'm not sure if you realize how incorrect you are by stating this.
He's correct but he worded it in a stupid way. If you make one small mistake in SC2 it can be almost impossible to come back. In BW. If you make a mistake here and there you can make up for it in other areas. Flash himself has said this.
I think the entire TBLS said that SC2 is a game that is a lot harder to make a comeback in when Blizzard interviewed them.
I think BW just has a lot more really powerful units like reavers and defilers where if you use them well, you can make a comeback
On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote: That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'.
DRG had 650ish sc2 apm at MLG... which is about 900 Brood war APM, so...
I think you read some statistics wrong. Or you mean spike apm, which imho is weirdly calculated in sc2 because ive seen many people already beating July BW record multiple times during normal sc2 micro.
I'm talking about a couple minute long spike late game where he was multitasking and microing a few battles at once.
yeah i was too busy suffocating. truth is 'mandatory' APM (providing such thing actually exists) is much higher on BW than on SC2, anyone who's played both games knows it, the only people arguing the opposite are SC2 rookies. BESIDES, only mechanical-obsessed-freaks care about APM, those are RTS games, they're not about clicking as much as possible, they're about clicking smartly.
edit: oh and this 900 APM thing was so ridiculously dumb i almost got eye cancer reading it
He is still not as consistent as Bisu in PL who plays standard almost every game, because Flash mixes it up more with proxies and 14CCs and whatnot its much harder to be consistent playing like that.
do you have any statistics to prove?, because i think their proleague win rates are pretty similar, if not flash has the better one.
Flash wins because he is smart and he dictates the play. He gets earlier expansions, he punishes greed, he plays a mixup game, he orients his play around the opponent rather than the matchup.
yes flash often gets earlier expansions and people can't punish it, because he is amazing in defending and this requires a lot of multitasking and good decision making
Have no idea what you mean, my point is that when things go out of hand Flash is more likely to lose than Bisu, Fantasy or Jaedong given similar SNAFU circumstances, he has great defense but when the level of multitask required goes beyond a certain level he falls apart
well, i think the complete opposite.bisu is more of a guy who gives up when things not going accordingly and flash rather a player, who doesn't give up even if he is far behind, such as shown in the game vs firebathero
i don't know, why you stress this so much. perhaps bisu and jaedong are a bit better in multitasking, but that doesn't mean flash's multitasking lacks anything. here is also a good example of flash's multitasking
On July 06 2012 20:12 Grumbels wrote: That's funny, I've read so many posts by BW fans claiming that DRG's 350+ apm is a joke compared to the BW players'.
DRG had 650ish sc2 apm at MLG... which is about 900 Brood war APM, so...
I think you read some statistics wrong. Or you mean spike apm, which imho is weirdly calculated in sc2 because ive seen many people already beating July BW record multiple times during normal sc2 micro.
I'm talking about a couple minute long spike late game where he was multitasking and microing a few battles at once.
yeah i was too busy suffocating. truth is 'mandatory' APM (providing such thing actually exists) is much higher on BW than on SC2, anyone who's played both games knows it, the only people arguing the opposite are SC2 rookies. BESIDES, only mechanical-obsessed-freaks care about APM, those are RTS games, they're not about clicking as much as possible, they're about clicking smartly.
edit: oh and this 900 APM thing was so ridiculously dumb i almost got eye cancer reading it
I don't believe anyone was arguing ANYTHING about mandatory APM being higher in SC2. I believe some people made mention of actual APM in Starcraft 2 being higher than the game itself reports however. And then some Broodwar fans started trying to defend the honour of their high APM overlords.
He is still not as consistent as Bisu in PL who plays standard almost every game, because Flash mixes it up more with proxies and 14CCs and whatnot its much harder to be consistent playing like that.
do you have any statistics to prove?, because i think their proleague win rates are pretty similar, if not flash has the better one.
Flash wins because he is smart and he dictates the play. He gets earlier expansions, he punishes greed, he plays a mixup game, he orients his play around the opponent rather than the matchup.
yes flash often gets earlier expansions and people can't punish it, because he is amazing in defending and this requires a lot of multitasking and good decision making
Have no idea what you mean, my point is that when things go out of hand Flash is more likely to lose than Bisu, Fantasy or Jaedong given similar SNAFU circumstances, he has great defense but when the level of multitask required goes beyond a certain level he falls apart
well, i think the complete opposite.bisu is more of a guy who gives up when things not going accordingly and flash rather a player, who doesn't give up even if he is far behind, such as shown in the game vs firebathero
i don't know, why you stress this so much. perhaps bisu and jaedong are a bit better in multitasking, but that doesn't mean flash's multitasking lacks anything. here is also a good example of flash's multitasking
You obviously don't know a lot about Broodwar if you don't know that Bisu currently holds the proleague win record, 11 more wins than Flash. A peak of 89.5% win ratio during his 16-2 streak and 3 All-Kills in a row. All that playing almost completely standard, bar some crazy multitasking in PvZ late-game with a Sair/HT/Reaver build that no one else could emulate. He didn't need to play a mixup game to achieve it unlike Flash.
Its clearly visible that Flash's multitasking wasn't and still is a tad behind the top mechanical players. I shouldn't need vods to prove this, even though I thought I already did. The VOD's you posted show nothing of Flash actually being under pressure. Both were cases of positional and economic pressure, the kind of pressure I'm talking about is being in your face from the beginning actually putting your units in danger constantly.
The Firebathero vod is just tantamount to how good firebathero was playing on that day, but just because you gain an early economic lead doesn't guarantee you a win. Firebathero wasn't diligent enough in keeping his bases covered and got punished for it.
The multitasking in TvT isn't the kind that requires a lot of thought, while I'm not exactly Flash, I check the latest split map TvP I played and I had built 134 Turrets and had 50% of the map covered with supply depots/mines/turrets and had 5 bases saturated in 25-ish mins, I mean that's the kind of multitasking we are talking about. Its just doing your due diligence, but that kind of multitasking isn't exactly difficult.
Keeping corsairs alive, while harassing with HTs/DTs, while harassing another base with 4 zealots, while Reaver dropping, I doubt Flash can do half of those things at once. Basically that's the kind of pressure
In both PL and WL finals, Bisu was the complete underdog and ended up winning. Flash got demolished on Aztec, and that's not even that P>T, and Bisu only gained a small advantage from the zealot pressure.
I don't know why I need to re-iterate this but Flash made very questionable errors that cost him the game (in both games). Very uncharacteristic of Flash, it was the kind of errors you would make when you are under a lot of pressure and not thinking straight. However Bisu played flawlessly, and even made some genius tactical plays under the same enormous pressure. The fact that Bisu plays better under pressure than Flash, given the huge skill difference between them in PvT should be enough to prove that Flash is not the most mentally strong player in the scene.
sluggashamo, while some your point are good, your bias is absolutely incredible. Can I remind you that Flash prior to last year (when he suffered from a wrist injury no less) held the most win title in PL for 3 years. I'll also add that Bisu individual league record helped a lot for that record. The reason for Bisu's dominance last year also had a lot to do with his new build in PvZ. As for the two victories that seem to be your only benchmark (lol), I'd like to add that the Aztec win was basically a BO win on an extremely favourable map for PvT, whatever you seem to think. If you really think FBH is that bad (I'm laughing pretty hard here, but anyway), what can you say exactly on the Flash vs Fantasy final, on the fact that Flash beat Jaedong in a game 5 in a Bo5 (I still remember the thread spammed with posts on about Flash did not have the mental strength...). And the notion that Flash has not made that many strategical innovation is laughable.
On July 08 2012 14:45 lisward wrote: I feel really sad for the BW pros, they have to train for two games, and they are probably under some form of pressure to perform in the sc2 scene, which is ridiculous because they've only been playing for what, three months?
They've probably been practicing for 6months + easy
Nope not 6 months. They have said in interviews they have only been playing for a couple months (so probably 3-4 now). But they have not been playing for 6 months.
A lot of them also said they've been practicing longer, for example effort had been playing since last year, Samsung khan started playing the game pre the first proleague season this year, as they were expecting it to be featured in it.
On July 08 2012 14:29 Xiphos wrote: Well to answer your question, most of Flash's win have been due his cheese succeeding and other players making stupid mistakes against him while holding on a very apparent advantage. Watch Bogus vs Flash from last night's game. Bogus was basically behind in the early as Flash had seen all his builds while still in the dark. But Bogus just played very standard, didn't overextend, expanded when safe, punished Flash's greed for double expanding later on.
Flash on a mechanical level isn't all that powerful, he relies on his plans to work. After his anti-carrier build, Fantasy have been inventing new strategies left and right vs Protoss and vs Zerg. Ex: MnMs into Mass Tanks (watch Proleague final vs Jaedong) and MnMs into Vulture into lategame mech later on (watch his game vs ZerO). Then Flash practice his asses off to emulate them.
By the way, at Flash vs Jaedong final, the non Nate MSL one, Jaedong just refused to change his strategy. Basically the games went like Flash 14 CC'd, Jaedong tried to stop it with Zerglings but couldn't because of the defensive nature of the Terran race and his third gets denied every single time because of bad economy leading into bad army production. Jaedong just wouldn't change his game plan and got a BO disadvantageous every single time.
And oh same fucking shit happened against Stork in the finals.
He won six Starleagues and became the best player of all time by... cheesing and his opponents screwing up while having a huge advantage? Are you kidding? He invented the anti-carrier build in 2008. Since then he's pretty much led the trends in TVZ and TVP. Fantasy's used some valkyrie builds that Oov invented. Are you like some ridiculous Flash anti-fan or something?
Nope Fanta started the MnMs into mass Tanks trend vs JD in the PL Final (read my post), in which players were usually going SK Terran. And later Fantasy invented the MnMs for map coverage into Vultures to keep the Zerg in check for even more coverage until the Mass tanks in a game vs ZerO (again read my post) that SOOOO many Terrans copied from (Midas, Sea for example). Again I did mention anti-carrier vs the Protosses in MY post.
You just can't tell me that the final in which he won against Jaedong while 14 CC WASN'T Jaedong screwing up because of stubbornness. You can't tell me that Flash isn't a cheese motherfucker facing against Movie when he bunker rushed at the last game. Last season's ProLeague games suggests that all he practices are cheeses/timing pushes to get an earlier lead and just macro for a big army into GG'd as shown vs Stork on Ground Zero and vs Best on Jade. And later Modesty had great advantage with the initial mutalisks control in which he completely give away like a Gift Basket by suiciding his ground army + 12 or more scourges.
I wasn't saying that Flash isn't a good player at all. He knows how to mix up and that's great I suppose but a lot of wins do attributes to him being cheesy and opponents not reacting well. I am going to say that a player of his caliber SHOULDN'T rely on those to get ahead.
You obviously don't know a lot about Broodwar if you don't know that Bisu currently holds the proleague win record, 11 more wins than Flash.
i didn't know, that we only argued about last season. i meant all time proleague winrates. you mentioned something about consistency. anyway, corumjhaelen addressed this already, for example the season before, flash had the best record and bisu was not even in top 10.
All that playing almost completely standard, bar some crazy multitasking in PvZ late-game with a Sair/HT/Reaver build that no one else could emulate
i watched kal using sair/reaver/ht vs zerg and having some sucess, too.
He didn't need to play a mixup game to achieve it unlike Flash
that's why bisu has won 3 osl's with standard play-) sorry but what?
Its clearly visible that Flash's multitasking wasn't and still is a tad behind the top mechanical players
i already admitted that flash's multitasking may be a bit weaker than bisu's or jaedongs, but that doesn't mean it is worse than of most other progamers
Keeping corsairs alive, while harassing with HTs/DTs, while harassing another base with 4 zealots, while Reaver dropping, I doubt Flash can do half of those things at once. Basically that's the kind of pressure
i doubt bisu can micro his mm to kill lurkers, while harass with sv's the drone line, while drop the zerg's 4 base and still macro behind. but where is the point every race has it's specifics and requires multitasking
In both PL and WL finals, Bisu was the complete underdog and ended up winning. Flash got demolished on Aztec, and that's not even that P>T, and Bisu only gained a small advantage from the zealot pressure.
you don't wanna get my point towards wl finals, don't you? wl finals is not an enormous pressure situation unlike semifinals of osl or proleague finals for example. what i wanted to express is that bisu once (in the proleague finals) on a p>t map could handle the pressure and played an excellent game, but other times he didn't (in osl) or wasn't even send out (in proleague finals). Instead skt coach chose best over than bisu to handle the pressure.
However Bisu played flawlessly, and even made some genius tactical plays under the same enormous pressure.
indeed, bisu played flawlessly and i don't wanna take anything away from him, but it is always easier to be the aggressor, because you practiced this build many times and get used to different scenarios than to be the defender and be forced to react "on the fly".
he fact that Bisu plays better under pressure than Flash, given the huge skill difference between them in PvT should be enough to prove that Flash is not the most mentally strong player in the scene
if one game is enough for you to come to this conclusion then there is no need to continue arguing.
On July 08 2012 14:29 Xiphos wrote: Well to answer your question, most of Flash's win have been due his cheese succeeding and other players making stupid mistakes against him while holding on a very apparent advantage. Watch Bogus vs Flash from last night's game. Bogus was basically behind in the early as Flash had seen all his builds while still in the dark. But Bogus just played very standard, didn't overextend, expanded when safe, punished Flash's greed for double expanding later on.
Flash on a mechanical level isn't all that powerful, he relies on his plans to work. After his anti-carrier build, Fantasy have been inventing new strategies left and right vs Protoss and vs Zerg. Ex: MnMs into Mass Tanks (watch Proleague final vs Jaedong) and MnMs into Vulture into lategame mech later on (watch his game vs ZerO). Then Flash practice his asses off to emulate them.
By the way, at Flash vs Jaedong final, the non Nate MSL one, Jaedong just refused to change his strategy. Basically the games went like Flash 14 CC'd, Jaedong tried to stop it with Zerglings but couldn't because of the defensive nature of the Terran race and his third gets denied every single time because of bad economy leading into bad army production. Jaedong just wouldn't change his game plan and got a BO disadvantageous every single time.
And oh same fucking shit happened against Stork in the finals.
He won six Starleagues and became the best player of all time by... cheesing and his opponents screwing up while having a huge advantage? Are you kidding? He invented the anti-carrier build in 2008. Since then he's pretty much led the trends in TVZ and TVP. Fantasy's used some valkyrie builds that Oov invented. Are you like some ridiculous Flash anti-fan or something?
Nope Fanta started the MnMs into mass Tanks trend vs JD in the PL Final (read my post), in which players were usually going SK Terran.
This is so wrong. Not only did it have a lot to do with the map being outsider, but even worse, iloveoov was doing it in 2005 at least. I'm not 100% sure about who is responsible for the other innovations in late game TvZ, but Midas/Flash/Fantasy probably all need to be credited. Vulture transition in particular I'm pretty sure it's also way older than what you think.
Are we going to go over every one of Flash's games to see whether he won through "legitimate' mechanical skill and multitasking?
Here's a novel idea: the best player in SCBW is the one who wins the most, wins most consistently, and wins when it counts. Flash had to win at least 4 boX series in succession for each of his 6 league wins, all under very high pressure situations. His opponents didn't "screw up" every game and they all had builds taylored to beat Flash on that day. Yet Flash won.
Flash is pretty gifted at this game, and he practices 10+ hours a day. If he decided that he needed to multi-task as well as Bisu to win more I'm sure he would have achieved that a while ago. He didn't, which makes me think he made the decision to focus on other areas. Bisu has the best mechanics out of TBLS but outside of PvZ, the worst game sense and strategy. He only shines on the offense and often suffers build order disadvantage because he plays too "standard." His famous multi-tasking is pretty much all he has.
On July 08 2012 23:07 Savant wrote: Are we going to go over every one of Flash's games to see whether he won through "legitimate' mechanical skill and multitasking?
Here's a novel idea: the best player in SCBW is the one who wins the most, wins most consistently, and wins when it counts. Flash had to win at least 4 boX series in succession for each of his 6 league wins, all under very high pressure situations. His opponents didn't "screw up" every game and they all had builds taylored to beat Flash on that day. Yet Flash won.
Flash is pretty gifted at this game, and he practices 10+ hours a day. If he decided that he needed to multi-task as well as Bisu to win more I'm sure he would have achieved that a while ago. He didn't, which makes me think he made the decision to focus on other areas. Bisu has the best mechanics out of TBLS but outside of PvZ, the worst game sense and strategy. He only shines on the offense and often suffers build order disadvantage because he plays too "standard." His famous multi-tasking is pretty much all he has.
And the good looks. Man you can't argue with that.
GuitarBizarre wrote:I believe some people made mention of actual APM in Starcraft 2 being higher than the game itself reports however. And then some Broodwar fans started trying to defend the honour of their high APM overlords.
The ridiculousness of APM being discussed seriously was where we "overlord-serving BW fans" drew the line. APM in SCtoo is laughable at best. Anyone and everyone who was anybody in both games agrees that SCtoo is much less mechanically intensive with just plain old less to do. I've said it time and time again that APM means nothing. Multi-tasking can't really be measured and so we're using poor calculations of things like actions-per-minute to get a bearing on what top pros really do that make them so awesome.
Eee wrote:A lot of them also said they've been practicing longer, for example effort had been playing since last year, Samsung khan started playing the game pre the first proleague season this year, as they were expecting it to be featured in it.
Not "a lot" of them. The percentage of Kespa-league pros who were playing seriously before March/April of this year is incredibly tiny. Also I think the translations might have been misleading since a lot of people took "Oh I've been playing for longer" for "Oh I've been playing seriously for longer". A lot of them might have seen the game, tested it and played around with it a bit but nobody really took it seriously. SCtoo was considered to be a vastly inferior game by a lot of them (this is not a flame, this was in live interviews with countless pros) and so it was laughed at by the top pros for being so much easier on mechanics than BW. So yes they might have been playing for longer but when you play 10 hours of BW and then like 2 games for the hell of it in SCtoo, that can hardly be counted in their total amount of play since its not serious in the least until very recently.
Large numbers of pros will not dedicate any serious amounts of time to something unless its important to their job. When SCtoo got added to PL, it became important for them to start getting good at it and so they started actually dedicating time and practice in. Anyone can say they've been playing SCtoo since beta that was in beta, but if you didn't play after beta for several months or more, you can't be considered in the same group as those that never stopped practicing and playing.
Oh, and one last note on the whole FlaSh argument going on here; his multi-tasking is unreal. He's S-class to be sure and he is single-handedly responsible for revolutionizing styles in TvP and TvZ. His builds are still the most used on ladder servers and other Terrans. They wouldn't have named him officially "bonjwa" unless he was legendary. Look up FlaSh's season in 2010. I rest my case.
On July 08 2012 14:45 lisward wrote: I feel really sad for the BW pros, they have to train for two games, and they are probably under some form of pressure to perform in the sc2 scene, which is ridiculous because they've only been playing for what, three months?
They've probably been practicing for 6months + easy
uh no
anyways
plz dont even compare drg apm to some of the bw pros. even bisu apm is more impressive and he isnt even the fastest progamer. i watched drg stream and its not even close. apm doesnt matter much. i hoping to see good games. yes the bw pros are underdogs
EPT
