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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed. 12:09 KST Page 98 | ||
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CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr
544 Posts
On June 24 2012 20:14 Lysanias wrote: It's actualy not a fact, that's why it's a discusion. theres enough evidence now, just search for it. one i really do enjoy right now is demuslim losing every tvz vs midmasters na zerg even, and beating forgg very easily with zerg, despite forgg getting correct build killing 10 drones at beginning, ahead in upgrades, not injecting, not even creep spreading, didnt matter anyway | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On June 24 2012 20:41 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote: theres enough evidence now, just search for it. one i really do enjoy right now is demuslim losing every tvz vs midmasters na zerg even, and beating forgg very easily with zerg, despite forgg getting correct build killing 10 drones at beginning, ahead in upgrades, not injecting, not even creep spreading, didnt matter anyway Not creepspreading, not injecting, and still winning as zerg. This must mean zerg was overpowered before the patch as well... right? Wait... | ||
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CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr
544 Posts
On June 24 2012 20:44 Clarity_nl wrote: Not creepspreading, not injecting, and still winning as zerg. This must mean zerg was overpowered before the patch as well... right? Wait... yea mb it does and mb the fact that terran has no lategame was an issue, mb the fact that tvz was already in favor of zerg in korea was an issue, and mb the queen buff was the worst decision blizzard ever made, and mb only platinum players and alike dont realise that ? idra himself was saying lategame terran had became fundamentally underpowered since ghost nerf, and if ud watch korean tvz already back then it shouldt take lon got realise getting wins from proxy 15cc isnt long term solution User was warned for this post | ||
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Charon1979
Austria317 Posts
"Game should be balanced at the highest level!" "Game is unbalanced at high Korean Level!" "TLPD says 50% in Korea" "But International..!" "Didnt you say: at the highest level?" "Im losing 90% of my ZvT, so its unbalanced!" "You are at the highest level?" "Fuck you, you have no idea what you are talking about" You bitch around constantly that the game should be balanced for the "highest level" and then you bitch even more if you realise that they dont balance it for you, because you are not '"highest level" User was warned for this post | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On June 24 2012 21:01 Charon1979 wrote: What are we discussing here anyway? "Game should be balanced at the highest level!" "Game is unbalanced at high Korean Level!" "TLPD says 50% in Korea" "But International..!" "Didnt you say: at the highest level?" "Im losing 90% of my ZvT, so its unbalanced!" "You are at the highest level?" "Fuck you, you have no idea what you are talking about" You bitch around constantly that the game should be balanced for the "highest level" and then you bitch even more if you realise that they dont balance it for you, because you are not '"highest level" It's fail on your part if you don't see what is going on here.. Your attempt to discredit this thread is clearly visible. I only can suggest you to read OP and at least few more pages. If you are not stupid, you have to realize.. User was warned for this post | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On June 24 2012 20:52 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote: yea mb it does and mb the fact that terran has no lategame was an issue, mb the fact that tvz was already in favor of zerg in korea was an issue, and mb the queen buff was the worst decision blizzard ever made, and mb only platinum players and alike dont realise that ? idra himself was saying lategame terran had became fundamentally underpowered since ghost nerf, and if ud watch korean tvz already back then it shouldt take lon got realise getting wins from proxy 15cc isnt long term solution What is with the constant insults about someones league when you don't even know what league they are in. I'm getting so sick of elitist pricks like you that think they're better than others, when all they are doing is whine whine whine. TvZ was a dead even 50-50 split pre patch. You can't say some guy beat some other guy without even injecting properly and spreading creep and blame it on the fucking balance patch that changed queen range from 3-5. The thing that changed was that queens became more prevalent and held off hellions more easily, as well as some early marine pressure. Thus allowing zerg to spread creep more early, feel more comfortable and tech up faster. None of this matters if what you claim is true. I never even mentioned the state of balance in TvZ post-patch, you dick. Apparently since my league matters to you since you tried using it as an insult, I'm masters in EU. User was warned for this post | ||
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Frex
Finland888 Posts
On June 24 2012 18:50 TheSamuraj wrote: The problem with BC's is that u need to start upgrading ship weapons and armor early in the game so that u have 3/3 (or 2/2) BCs when u are making them. If u dont upgrade u will do 3 damage per shot against fully upgraded ultras. Yamato does do 300 damage but for each ultralisk u need two battlecruisers (if yamatoing). I like the idea of going BCs but ultras could just stampede past your bcs. Against broodlords they have to get past the corrupters which do extra damage against massive targets, so vikings required. Also mass zergling. I personally think that Blizzard should consider merging Mech and Air upgrades in a single upgrade, it would help immensely in TvZ, without hurting TvP that much. I also feel it would make TvT even more interesting. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
In ZvP they still need it before Hive tech, most likely, but afterwards, I've seen Protosses with more bases still lose. | ||
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Charon1979
Austria317 Posts
This is no discussion. Basically all you are constanly saying is: "I want the game to be balanced at the highest levels, but I dont want to have to play like the highest level in order to win" Self-contradictionary... | ||
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Frex
Finland888 Posts
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saltygrapes
181 Posts
On June 24 2012 20:40 Thrombozyt wrote: I wonder if the rest of the games looked like the one I just saw between MKP and Hyun. As in Hyun has half of Entombed Valley covered in creep, is maxed on crackling/infestor/ultra/bane and then instead of secuing his lead and starving MKP out (who has no chance of taking a 5th ever) he takes all his stuff and a-moves into a multi-tiered siege tank setup while blowing 25 banes up on a single thor. Honestly, Hyun played so badly in that series and MKP played so well and still he was just barely able to squeak out wins. Even in game 3, MKP did a solid stim timing at Hyun's third base; killing 4 queens and a ton of units yet still ended up 40 supply behind at one point. Any timings Terran can do to punish greedy zergs like that just come out a tad too late to really make up a huge difference, IMO. After having huge midgame leads, Hyun in both of his losses was behind in upgrades when he shouldn't have been as he had the money to get them and he mismanaged his resources and tech choices. In game 3, he had too many early banelings that weren't cost efficient and he made WAY too many useless mutalisks that led to delayed infestors and delayed hive units. He also didn't seem to have his production engaged very well as he was floating tons of money in both of his losses. MKP was 8000 resources ahead in units lost in the 3rd game at one point and was still at a huge supply defacit until the very end of the game. That honestly just makes no sense at all. | ||
opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On June 24 2012 21:16 Rokoz wrote: I personally think that Blizzard should consider merging Mech and Air upgrades in a single upgrade, it would help immensely in TvZ, without hurting TvP that much. I also feel it would make TvT even more interesting. Not a bad idea, actually, since mech is rarely used vs protoss and the combined upgrades would help versus zerg ultra/brood switches! | ||
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Meff
Italy287 Posts
On June 24 2012 18:40 CatNzHat wrote: So much of what you say here is wrong, here's a start: hellions are no longer a threat to queens because queens can kite them, it used to be the other way around, where if you were good with your hellion micro as terran you could kite queens and slow down their creep spread. You still had to have extremely fast reactions if they went for a surround with lings. This interaction between the range 3 queen and range 4 hellion rewarded good control, and punished terrans who played sloppy. Ehm... hellions have range 5 and can't be kited by queens. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On June 24 2012 21:16 Rokoz wrote: I personally think that Blizzard should consider merging Mech and Air upgrades in a single upgrade, it would help immensely in TvZ, without hurting TvP that much. I also feel it would make TvT even more interesting. I personally think Blizzard should consider merging all Zerg upgrades in a single upgrade, it would help immensely with ZvT without hurting ZvP that much. I also feel it would make ZvZ even more interesting. | ||
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sGs.Stregon
United States161 Posts
On June 24 2012 22:49 Jermstuddog wrote: I personally think Blizzard should consider merging all Zerg upgrades in a single upgrade, it would help immensely with ZvT without hurting ZvP that much. I also feel it would make ZvZ even more interesting. Really that is so akward.. I totally think Blizzard should nerf infestor and BroodLords also.. Mabey after zerg gets nerfed in 80% of patchs over 2 years we can talk about getting all their upgrades into one though  . | ||
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Bippzy
United States1466 Posts
On June 24 2012 21:16 Toadvine wrote: I sort of think the "Zerg needs to be a base ahead of Terran" notion might be somewhat outdated with the current ling/infestor into ultra style. Throughout the last two months, I've seen many a TvZ where Zerg would come out ahead in engagements with both sides on equal bases. Or a Zerg with a lower base count winning because he has a broodlord/infestor ball up. With good creep spread allowing for favorable engagements and surrounds, I'm not sure if Zerg needs an extra base in the matchup. In ZvP they still need it before Hive tech, most likely, but afterwards, I've seen Protosses with more bases still lose. The principle before 3 base is that zerg needs to be a base ahead of terran. If a zerg wants to go hive tech, the only way it's not all-innish is to have more than 3 bases. If the terran can deny them back to three base when they try to hive then the terran just needs a favorable engagement. Also, @ the person talking about marineking vs hyun... Thats the same problem i have when i watch pros. I really couldnt tell you what terran can or should be doing at any given moment that will be a winning move | ||
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soupchicken
United States322 Posts
On June 24 2012 21:16 Rokoz wrote: I personally think that Blizzard should consider merging Mech and Air upgrades in a single upgrade, it would help immensely in TvZ, without hurting TvP that much. I also feel it would make TvT even more interesting. I really like this idea | ||
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Tryagain4free
81 Posts
On June 24 2012 23:05 Bippzy wrote: The principle before 3 base is that zerg needs to be a base ahead of terran. If a zerg wants to go hive tech, the only way it's not all-innish is to have more than 3 bases. If the terran can deny them back to three base when they try to hive then the terran just needs a favorable engagement. Also, @ the person talking about marineking vs hyun... Thats the same problem i have when i watch pros. I really couldnt tell you what terran can or should be doing at any given moment that will be a winning move Hi Bippzy! I would say you are right about this, if we talk about pre patch scenarios. But the point is, early defense with "queens only" and faster 3. base gives zerg earlier access to 6 gas play overall. While in the early game, the whole defense works without any/much gas at all. So now you see zerg delay speedupgrade for lings and cut roaches all together, if they want to play with heavy focus on economy. Thus you see hive timings at points in the game, you have never experienced pre patch. So post patch, it is possible to go hivetech on three bases, and even earlier then before. And it seems not to be "all-inish" at all. I think that is in deed one of the mayor concerns post patch. All kinds of timings for terran opneners have changed (besdides sth like 11/11), and on the other side of the pitch, zerg tech timings have altered quite a bit in favour of their lategame. | ||
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Shewklad
Sweden482 Posts
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covetousrat
2109 Posts
Hmm this seems to be a very interesting idea from a Protoss point of view and I personally like it. However, this can be a bit balance breaking at this point with HOTS releasing soon. If there ever was this change, it should come in HOTS. | ||
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