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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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On June 24 2012 22:55 sGs.Stregon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 22:49 Jermstuddog wrote:On June 24 2012 21:16 Rokoz wrote:On June 24 2012 18:50 TheSamuraj wrote:On June 24 2012 18:18 svefnleysi wrote:
I think people are looking at TvZ right now with the wrong mindset.
Zerg is favored these days, but I don't think it's because of the queens. "Oh you made an extra 8 hellions? Guess I'm dead now..." is not a fun way to play or watch the game.
I believe the problem lies more in the late game than in the early to late game.
Zerg can easily switch from Broodlords to Ultralisks in the lategame while Terran has to react seperately to both. Make a bunch of vikings to counter my broodlords? Have fun with those vikings when I show up with 8 ultras two minutes later. Same thing with tanks/marauders and broodlords.
I believe the underlying problem is the ghost nerf. Both the snipe and EMP nerf.
I'll throw this out there while I'm at it: I'd love to see Terrans experiment with Yamato battle cruiser switches. It seems like a good idea in terms of both brood lords and ultralisks The problem with BC's is that u need to start upgrading ship weapons and armor early in the game so that u have 3/3 (or 2/2) BCs when u are making them. If u dont upgrade u will do 3 damage per shot against fully upgraded ultras. Yamato does do 300 damage but for each ultralisk u need two battlecruisers (if yamatoing). I like the idea of going BCs but ultras could just stampede past your bcs. Against broodlords they have to get past the corrupters which do extra damage against massive targets, so vikings required. Also mass zergling. I personally think that Blizzard should consider merging Mech and Air upgrades in a single upgrade, it would help immensely in TvZ, without hurting TvP that much. I also feel it would make TvT even more interesting. I personally think Blizzard should consider merging all Zerg upgrades in a single upgrade, it would help immensely with ZvT without hurting ZvP that much. I also feel it would make ZvZ even more interesting. Really that is so akward.. I totally think Blizzard should nerf infestor and BroodLords also.. Mabey after zerg gets nerfed in 80% of patchs over 2 years we can talk about getting all their upgrades into one though  .
So Terran starting the game OP as fuck and getting nerfed down to mere mortal levels justifies things like this?
I threw it out there so the stupidity of the statement would be apparent, but I guess things like that are lost in a thread like this.
I mean... Yeah... t seems a bit weak in the MU, but that suggestion is just retarded... And yet... People rally behind it like its a good idea. Anything pro-terran flies around here it seems.
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On June 24 2012 23:51 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 22:55 sGs.Stregon wrote:On June 24 2012 22:49 Jermstuddog wrote:On June 24 2012 21:16 Rokoz wrote:On June 24 2012 18:50 TheSamuraj wrote:On June 24 2012 18:18 svefnleysi wrote:
I think people are looking at TvZ right now with the wrong mindset.
Zerg is favored these days, but I don't think it's because of the queens. "Oh you made an extra 8 hellions? Guess I'm dead now..." is not a fun way to play or watch the game.
I believe the problem lies more in the late game than in the early to late game.
Zerg can easily switch from Broodlords to Ultralisks in the lategame while Terran has to react seperately to both. Make a bunch of vikings to counter my broodlords? Have fun with those vikings when I show up with 8 ultras two minutes later. Same thing with tanks/marauders and broodlords.
I believe the underlying problem is the ghost nerf. Both the snipe and EMP nerf.
I'll throw this out there while I'm at it: I'd love to see Terrans experiment with Yamato battle cruiser switches. It seems like a good idea in terms of both brood lords and ultralisks The problem with BC's is that u need to start upgrading ship weapons and armor early in the game so that u have 3/3 (or 2/2) BCs when u are making them. If u dont upgrade u will do 3 damage per shot against fully upgraded ultras. Yamato does do 300 damage but for each ultralisk u need two battlecruisers (if yamatoing). I like the idea of going BCs but ultras could just stampede past your bcs. Against broodlords they have to get past the corrupters which do extra damage against massive targets, so vikings required. Also mass zergling. I personally think that Blizzard should consider merging Mech and Air upgrades in a single upgrade, it would help immensely in TvZ, without hurting TvP that much. I also feel it would make TvT even more interesting. I personally think Blizzard should consider merging all Zerg upgrades in a single upgrade, it would help immensely with ZvT without hurting ZvP that much. I also feel it would make ZvZ even more interesting. Really that is so akward.. I totally think Blizzard should nerf infestor and BroodLords also.. Mabey after zerg gets nerfed in 80% of patchs over 2 years we can talk about getting all their upgrades into one though . So Terran starting the game OP as fuck and getting nerfed down to mere mortal levels justifies things like this? I threw it out there so the stupidity of the statement would be apparent, but I guess things like that are lost in a thread like this. I mean... Yeah... t seems a bit weak in the MU, but that suggestion is just retarded... And yet... People rally behind it like its a good idea. Anything pro-terran flies around here it seems.
When you have people actually arguing that Hellion builds were previously auto-win, it's hard not to be dismissive of anything not pro-Terran.
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On June 24 2012 23:51 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 22:55 sGs.Stregon wrote:On June 24 2012 22:49 Jermstuddog wrote:On June 24 2012 21:16 Rokoz wrote:On June 24 2012 18:50 TheSamuraj wrote:On June 24 2012 18:18 svefnleysi wrote:
I think people are looking at TvZ right now with the wrong mindset.
Zerg is favored these days, but I don't think it's because of the queens. "Oh you made an extra 8 hellions? Guess I'm dead now..." is not a fun way to play or watch the game.
I believe the problem lies more in the late game than in the early to late game.
Zerg can easily switch from Broodlords to Ultralisks in the lategame while Terran has to react seperately to both. Make a bunch of vikings to counter my broodlords? Have fun with those vikings when I show up with 8 ultras two minutes later. Same thing with tanks/marauders and broodlords.
I believe the underlying problem is the ghost nerf. Both the snipe and EMP nerf.
I'll throw this out there while I'm at it: I'd love to see Terrans experiment with Yamato battle cruiser switches. It seems like a good idea in terms of both brood lords and ultralisks The problem with BC's is that u need to start upgrading ship weapons and armor early in the game so that u have 3/3 (or 2/2) BCs when u are making them. If u dont upgrade u will do 3 damage per shot against fully upgraded ultras. Yamato does do 300 damage but for each ultralisk u need two battlecruisers (if yamatoing). I like the idea of going BCs but ultras could just stampede past your bcs. Against broodlords they have to get past the corrupters which do extra damage against massive targets, so vikings required. Also mass zergling. I personally think that Blizzard should consider merging Mech and Air upgrades in a single upgrade, it would help immensely in TvZ, without hurting TvP that much. I also feel it would make TvT even more interesting. I personally think Blizzard should consider merging all Zerg upgrades in a single upgrade, it would help immensely with ZvT without hurting ZvP that much. I also feel it would make ZvZ even more interesting. Really that is so akward.. I totally think Blizzard should nerf infestor and BroodLords also.. Mabey after zerg gets nerfed in 80% of patchs over 2 years we can talk about getting all their upgrades into one though . So Terran starting the game OP as fuck and getting nerfed down to mere mortal levels justifies things like this? I threw it out there so the stupidity of the statement would be apparent, but I guess things like that are lost in a thread like this. I mean... Yeah... t seems a bit weak in the MU, but that suggestion is just retarded... And yet... People rally behind it like its a good idea. Anything pro-terran flies around here it seems.
That arguement is very weak man.. "Terran was OP on release, so they deserve to be unwhelming now." You need to come up with a new argument, because a game that carries the name Starcraft should NEVER be balanced based on one race being stronger at any certain point, but instead should be balanced around the idea of all races being equal, regardless of wether one race was more dominate or not at one point ((which is not what is happening right now. Right now it is just nerf Terran to appease the other two races to help sell the expansions - watch zerg will get hella nerfs once HoTS is release, and protoss will get some rediculous buffs to help sell LoTV.. not a good strategy if you ask me, just shows blizzards greedyness)), which is why people call it ScToo ((because it claims to be starcraft too - as in also - but it really isnt)), because the way it is being balanced is about money, and not about creating an all time great RTS that can surpass its predecessor.
P.S. the reason Terrans were so dominate is not entirely because they were op, yes it had something todo with it ((but to be honest, Terran has not been OP in along time)), but it is because Terran players have been experimenting with their race since release.. Look at ALL the nerfs, when they are combined it equates to basically removing the Terran race from the game, and it should not be justifed by "Terran op in beta, they deserve to suck now."
If anything, Blizzard should remove the ground form of Vikings and buff their air attack considerably, which would help against Broodlords, and it wouldnt out right break TvP either, because vikings are just used as counters to collosi atm ((seeing is how the ground form is utterly useless after the nerf it recived)).. Ghost needs something done to help out against Infestor that wouldnt outright break TvP play, but i dunno what.. Personaly I like the way the upgrades are set up, but I can see why some people would want Mech ground attack and air attack as one upgrade - same thing with armor -, but at the same time I wouldnt be for something like that.
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I'm GM and I don't find the queen range changes much of my play at all. I open hellion banshee in TvZ and still kill zergs if they take greedy 3rds or roast their drone lines, even aganist 5+ queens. Its just ppl havn't tried to push the limits of positioning and tactical runbys yet.
For lategame, terrans keep thinking that army vs army is enough. They havn't utilized PFs in main points on the map. If you have say 2 PFs in the middle of the map which you should take inorder to counter mass queen builds since their army is much smaller and would most likely tech to broodlords. Once you take that position you can just starve the zerg by snipeing expos from different angles because you have control of the middle. Broodlords are slow so his only option is to attack straight on. He can't protect all his bases once the map is cut in half. Mass repair the 2 pfs and it will never fall. Theres too much stuff pros arn't doing enough, they need to pull ideas from BW now for the metagames to shift.
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I agree with sGs. I feel that it's not ENTIRELY terran as a race to blame. I feel that it was because
1. It was what people were used to so it was easier to play. If you came from broodwar, you knew how to make a unit, wait for the production to finish completely, and then get a unit. So it was just an easier switch and easier to transition to.
2. The game wasn't explored enough to say that the other two races didn't have the potential. So while Terran dominated, zergs and protoss's were trying to get their shit together.
That being said, terran was imba when the game started but it doesn't mean that they should be at a disadvantage now. It'll just start a constant loop of imbalance
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I never said they deserve to be underwhelming, stop acting like I did.
I think T could probably use a slight buff to snipe (make it useful vs Broodlords, but not ultras). That would fix their legit TvZ woes.
I would also say removing Thor energy would work wonders for late game TvP.
The queen change, overall, is a good thing for the health of the game.
terran doesn't need help in the early game, and reverting the queen change is a bad move. What Terran lacks is a reason to go to endgame. That's where Blizzard should be looking next.
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On June 24 2012 15:26 KaRath_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 14:52 cydial wrote:On June 24 2012 14:43 superstartran wrote:On June 24 2012 13:32 redruMBunny wrote:If you notice every single high level terran game what do you see? some variant of triple oc and double ebay
why do you think this is? they are letting the zerg go to 70 drones, so they deserve to lose right?
You probably don't actually play the game, but there is actually no way to stop zerg from going 70 drones by 8 minutes unless you do some super 2 base timing (usually allin if fails to do any damage), and 6 queens + lings easily stop everything. Aren't you saying that triple OC and double ebay isn't quite working out? But isn't that what you saw prepatch anyways? So maybe triple OC and double ebay is wrong, is what I'm saying. If the triple OC and double ebay are wrong, you're saying, then why are pros still using it? At least I think that is your point. That is, isn't your argument and the argument of many others that because the pros say it's a problem, it's a problem? But I think it could be because the pros have just been slow to adapt. Just because pros do something doesn't mean it's inherently and empirically right. What if pros think the queen buff hasn't really changed things to the degree that they should have to change their playstyle? (and what if pros are wrong about this and are losing TvZ as a result?) What if the pros are busy for the season so don't have the time to adequately practice to correctly counter? Etc. etc. So if I found a bunch of Korean pros that felt the queen buff was proper and right, then what? Does that make other posters concerns invalid? I don't think so. I think some posters consider the queen buff to be a problem in and of itself, and I think they have valid reasons, as I've already expressed (although not for some time as I've been posting pro-queen buff). Although a lot of what I've written has been in favor of the queen buff, that still doesn't mean I think it's 100% correct and necessary, or that I think other arguments have no validity. But consider this - wasn't it recently that one of the pros ran a 0/0 upgrade game, showing switching resources off from upgrades can work successfully, after at least months of everyone going ups? Then what is it about DRG style and Stephano style and Marineking style or however many other styles that are titled after player names? I think it's because the scene adapts, but slowly, especially now because as I mentioned, this is a busy season for SC2 pros. I don't think they have a load of time to screw around trying to invent new timing attacks. Besides that, the answer for each player may be a bit different. Stephano style works for Stephano because of his micro, his ability to assess things so well on the fly, and a lot of other Stephano-ish qualities. But it might not work so well for even another player, even an S-rank Korean pro. It isn't just like there's one standard answer that will work for all players. Besides that, ability to deal with queens isn't just about building some counter. It's a question of executing counters, not just conceptualizing them. If you have a counter that you think may work decently, but you can't quite get a hold of it, it makes sense that you might try a method that's more tried and true than a new animal that you're not quite sure of. Like, suppose you wanted to go to the grocery store to get a pint of ice cream, or if you want to say it's an important trip, to go to the hospital to see a baby get born (maybe a new brother/sister, maybe a son/daughter, who knows?) In any event, does it make sense to jump in a rocket powered car that travels a minimum of 200 mph, especially if you know your nerves are going to be pent up? Sure it might theoretically do the job better, but if you're used to traveling by motor scooter at 30 mph, you might figure your chances of making it to your destination would be better if you used the slow scooter. Now consider that if you're not even sure of executing your counter properly, you will be even that much less sure because you'll be afraid of an opponent's possible counters that your counter can't deal with. It's all unknown and potentially very problematic, so stick with what works, even if it works less successfully. Etc. etc. There are so many reasons why a good answer to queen buff may not be being demonstrated by pros yet, so I think people basing arguments based simply on pro play and win percentages is premature. Five months from now, okay, the slow winter season comes on and players have time to innovate. But for now, I think it's certainly too early to say. I watched a replay of deMuslim's interview at I think it was MLG. Apparently he didn't think the queen buff was imba to begin with, but he changed his mind after listening to other players. What if deMuslim was right in the first place and the others were wrong? A large portion of the Z pro community believe the buff is ridiculous and breaks the match-up. People who directly benefit from this by making more money because of it. If you can't listen to that, I don't know what to tell you. Just, fucking stop. You're wrong. Period. The Queen Buff is too much, and I don't care how you put it, when DRG, Nestea, and various other Z pros go on record about how it was basically too much, it was too much. Period. On June 24 2012 14:35 saltygrapes wrote:
The problem that exists has been discussed to death... The answer should be in the Raven, but blizzard has to be the ones to make it happen
Terrans have forever had utterly horrible lategame units, the BC is a complete joke and the Raven is a situational unit that is usually terrible. in TvZ it is just a waste of supply and 200 gas and gives no early game benefits other than its detection and no lategame benefits at all because PDD doesn't do anything versus any ZvT unit and HSM has been awful for forever. But really, the awful lategame options didn't matter because Terran early-mid game always had the potential to be successful. and now that it doesn't, the lack of lategame option is exposed.
I'd rather HSM be fusion core tech and actually good, like it used to be, than starport techlab tech and horrible, like it is now. Giving it its old radius back and +1 range or something and moving it back to fusion core might be a good change.
This way, a Terran doesn't really feel bad about bringing out an early Raven, and an interesting midgame Raven vs. Queen mechanic can exist in TvZ games where a terran sends out a raven with a few units to kill creep and the Zerg tries to fend them off and rebuild tumors. It gives terrans an answer to ridiculous mid-game creep spread and a decent option in the late game to combat Broodlord/Infestor. Replace Raven with Science Vessel. Problem solved. However it will never happen, but the Science Vessel would give Terran enough power late game without sending them over the top. Cite your sources for this. Not that I don't believe you, but I have a hard time believing it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=346873 - RO32 interviews Ryung - "Playing on NA Server resulted in TvZ all loss" DRG (probably best Zerg atm, more than probably actually) - "This is required, it's a great time to try for the gold, have to win a gold when zergs have the advantage" MKP (probably second best Terran behind MVP) in response - "It's the most unbalanced match-up in history, before the patch (my) TvZ win-rate was around 60%, now it's plummeted to 10%. I'm really lost, why did this happen, I've studied alot of counter zerg strategies, and I haven't found any solutions yet. In hindsight it's (strategies) all like that game on metropolis, playing to the late-game and setting up the prefect defense all around, it's kind of a solution with out a solution. I I've watched alot of zergs that do well on ladder's records, alot of people basically haven't lost to Terran in a whole week. It's basically impossible for a terran with the same skill level as the zerg to win. Unless you all-in, or the opponent's psyche collapses, or your luck is just too good, it's hard to win. Even in practice I don't want to play TvZ, I always lose." That said, Violet did say this - "Zerg definitely got more powerful, but personally I just feel that other races were sniping zergs too easily before, so now they are finding zergs hard. ZvP hasn't changed match, ZvT is improved, because Terrans are too focused (affected) on the queens, so they are playing very cowardly in ZvT, that's why this phenomenon exists now." But I do remember top-tier Terrans stating that this is the first time their win-rate has completely plummated, and Zergs saying that's it's become better/2ez
Lest us not forget MVP. He explicitly stated that Zerg was OP.
As a sidenote, I saw MKP beat 2 Top 16 GMs on Korean server as PROTOSS and ZERG. If MKP was Zerg, I think we would see 100% win rate ZvT for him.
Imagine if the best players in the world, the Korean Terrans, switched to Zerg. This would remove any shadow of a doubt about Zerg being overpowered.
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If terran had late game possibilities that could rival protoss and zerg late game, SC2 would be a game of take map, make stuff, clash stuff.
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On June 25 2012 00:06 gfever wrote:
I'm GM and I don't find the queen range changes much of my play at all. I open hellion banshee in TvZ and still kill zergs if they take greedy 3rds or roast their drone lines, even aganist 5+ queens. Its just ppl havn't tried to push the limits of positioning and tactical runbys yet.
For lategame, terrans keep thinking that army vs army is enough. They havn't utilized PFs in main points on the map. If you have say 2 PFs in the middle of the map which you should take inorder to counter mass queen builds since their army is much smaller and would most likely tech to broodlords. Once you take that position you can just starve the zerg by snipeing expos from different angles because you have control of the middle. Broodlords are slow so his only option is to attack straight on. He can't protect all his bases once the map is cut in half. Mass repair the 2 pfs and it will never fall. Theres too much stuff pros arn't doing enough, they need to pull ideas from BW now for the metagames to shift.
Can you post some replays for your t v z?
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On June 25 2012 00:06 gfever wrote:
I'm GM and I don't find the queen range changes much of my play at all. I open hellion banshee in TvZ and still kill zergs if they take greedy 3rds or roast their drone lines, even aganist 5+ queens. Its just ppl havn't tried to push the limits of positioning and tactical runbys yet.
For lategame, terrans keep thinking that army vs army is enough. They havn't utilized PFs in main points on the map. If you have say 2 PFs in the middle of the map which you should take inorder to counter mass queen builds since their army is much smaller and would most likely tech to broodlords. Once you take that position you can just starve the zerg by snipeing expos from different angles because you have control of the middle. Broodlords are slow so his only option is to attack straight on. He can't protect all his bases once the map is cut in half. Mass repair the 2 pfs and it will never fall. Theres too much stuff pros arn't doing enough, they need to pull ideas from BW now for the metagames to shift.
I don't believe this until I see replays.
If you are a high level TvZ, the new queen buff will certainly affect you
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On June 25 2012 00:07 Jermstuddog wrote:
I never said they deserve to be underwhelming, stop acting like I did.
I think T could probably use a slight buff to snipe (make it useful vs Broodlords, but not ultras). That would fix their legit TvZ woes.
I would also say removing Thor energy would work wonders for late game TvP.
The queen change, overall, is a good thing for the health of the game.
terran doesn't need help in the early game, and reverting the queen change is a bad move. What Terran lacks is a reason to go to endgame. That's where Blizzard should be looking next.
On June 24 2012 23:51 Jermstuddog wrote:
So Terran starting the game OP as fuck and getting nerfed down to mere mortal levels justifies things like this?
I threw it out there so the stupidity of the statement would be apparent, but I guess things like that are lost in a thread like this.
I mean... Yeah... t seems a bit weak in the MU, but that suggestion is just retarded... And yet... People rally behind it like its a good idea. Anything pro-terran flies around here it seems.
You are delusional if you honestly belive you never said that Terran didnt deserve the be underwhelming.. Sure mabey you didnt outright say it, but that bold part that i unerlined from your previous posts, basically says that Terran deserves to be underwhelming, as you later in that comment even admit Terran is weak in the MU, and then imply Terran players are retarded because they want some sort of buff for once.
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France9034 Posts
On June 25 2012 00:11 anguyenm wrote:
If terran had late game possibilities that could rival protoss and zerg late game, SC2 would be a game of take map, make stuff, clash stuff.
Though I would agree on the fact that this would lead to a situation where the early game is based only on macro, why then giving terrans a strong mid-game and a weak late game, and give its opponent all the tools needed to shut down easily that strong mid game ?
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I was answering Jermstuddog. If you "fix" the game to where every race just macro's up, then it's only going slapping armies together in huge numbers with every race having the ability (supposedly) to get their army back up and slap each other some more.
Blizzard makes it this way to make sure the favor switches from one race to another using time as the factor.
Why give Terran a stronger mid-game? To make the game fun. If every race was strong late game, it'd be seeing some PvP's all the game (retarded games, not actual PvP's...)
But the stronger mid-game part isn't exactly living up to it's name. And now terrans are getting their shit pushed in to the dirt because everyone knows terrans TRICK. It's not the nerfed reaper, hellion, viking, or ghost either.
The only trick there is, is bio now.
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On June 25 2012 00:13 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 00:06 gfever wrote:
I'm GM and I don't find the queen range changes much of my play at all. I open hellion banshee in TvZ and still kill zergs if they take greedy 3rds or roast their drone lines, even aganist 5+ queens. Its just ppl havn't tried to push the limits of positioning and tactical runbys yet.
For lategame, terrans keep thinking that army vs army is enough. They havn't utilized PFs in main points on the map. If you have say 2 PFs in the middle of the map which you should take inorder to counter mass queen builds since their army is much smaller and would most likely tech to broodlords. Once you take that position you can just starve the zerg by snipeing expos from different angles because you have control of the middle. Broodlords are slow so his only option is to attack straight on. He can't protect all his bases once the map is cut in half. Mass repair the 2 pfs and it will never fall. Theres too much stuff pros arn't doing enough, they need to pull ideas from BW now for the metagames to shift. I don't believe this until I see replays. If you are a high level TvZ, the new queen buff will certainly affect you
http://drop.sc/203983
http://drop.sc/203984
http://drop.sc/203985
http://drop.sc/203986
Heres 4 replays demostrating what I mean. I believe these are early-mid game harassment styles, this was played the week b4 GM for the this new season.
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On June 25 2012 00:14 sGs.Stregon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 00:07 Jermstuddog wrote:
I never said they deserve to be underwhelming, stop acting like I did.
I think T could probably use a slight buff to snipe (make it useful vs Broodlords, but not ultras). That would fix their legit TvZ woes.
I would also say removing Thor energy would work wonders for late game TvP.
The queen change, overall, is a good thing for the health of the game.
terran doesn't need help in the early game, and reverting the queen change is a bad move. What Terran lacks is a reason to go to endgame. That's where Blizzard should be looking next. Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 23:51 Jermstuddog wrote:
So Terran starting the game OP as fuck and getting nerfed down to mere mortal levels justifies things like this?
I threw it out there so the stupidity of the statement would be apparent, but I guess things like that are lost in a thread like this.
I mean... Yeah... t seems a bit weak in the MU, but that suggestion is just retarded... And yet... People rally behind it like its a good idea. Anything pro-terran flies around here it seems. You are delusional if you honestly belive you never said that Terran didnt deserve the be underwhelming.. Sure mabey you didnt outright say it, but that bold part that i unerlined from your previous posts, basically says that Terran deserves to be underwhelming, as you later in that comment even admit Terran is weak in the MU, and then imply Terran players are retarded because they want some sort of buff for once.
"Mere mortal levels" means "on the same level as everybody else" a lot more than it means "fuck those bastards" so calm down and stop putting words in my mouth.
I said they're a bit weak right now because they are. Everybody should realize that.
The whole point I'm trying to make, and I don't even know why I bother anymore, is that as a Zerg player, the new queen feels good, and not in a "hey, not its MY turn to be OP" kind of way, but in a general "this just feels better" kind of way.
The problem with Zerg is that early units are hugely detrimental to your viability to win games to the point where as Zerg, its not uncommon to lose games because you did an early attack, it was successful, and you lose anyway because, well, that's how it is...
The same goes with defending. See what your opponent is making, make the perfect counter, lose anyway because you had to make units to defend.
The queen acting as an early game "safe" unit fixes a giant gaping hole in the Zerg design.
Now its time for Blizzard to fix another gaping hole in the game, Terrans endgame units.
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guys complaining about asymmetrical balance really?
BW was asymmetrical, you couldn't have SC at all without asymmetry. A symmetrical RTS would be a mirror match up, you can't have complete symmetrical balance when the game is built around 3 unique races.
Take marines vs zergling/baneling as an example. 1 marine will beat 1 zergling, but 4 zerglings will beat 1-2 marines, then 10 marines will beat slowlings, then speedlings beat 10 marines, then critical mass marines beat speedling, so you add in banelings, but marine with stim beats banelings so you get baneling speed, but medivacs can pick up marines, so you get mutas to gun them down.
There is back and forth, that's called asymmetry, because asymmetrical balance brings in back and forth action, where games constantly swing from one side to the other. If it was symmetrical balance, then no matter what upgrades the marines or zerglings/banelings have, they will always be equal, but that's not how this game works.
Just wanted to clarify because people are complaining about a core aspect of SC...
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On June 25 2012 00:31 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 00:14 sGs.Stregon wrote:On June 25 2012 00:07 Jermstuddog wrote:
I never said they deserve to be underwhelming, stop acting like I did.
I think T could probably use a slight buff to snipe (make it useful vs Broodlords, but not ultras). That would fix their legit TvZ woes.
I would also say removing Thor energy would work wonders for late game TvP.
The queen change, overall, is a good thing for the health of the game.
terran doesn't need help in the early game, and reverting the queen change is a bad move. What Terran lacks is a reason to go to endgame. That's where Blizzard should be looking next. On June 24 2012 23:51 Jermstuddog wrote:
So Terran starting the game OP as fuck and getting nerfed down to mere mortal levels justifies things like this?
I threw it out there so the stupidity of the statement would be apparent, but I guess things like that are lost in a thread like this.
I mean... Yeah... t seems a bit weak in the MU, but that suggestion is just retarded... And yet... People rally behind it like its a good idea. Anything pro-terran flies around here it seems. You are delusional if you honestly belive you never said that Terran didnt deserve the be underwhelming.. Sure mabey you didnt outright say it, but that bold part that i unerlined from your previous posts, basically says that Terran deserves to be underwhelming, as you later in that comment even admit Terran is weak in the MU, and then imply Terran players are retarded because they want some sort of buff for once. "Mere mortal levels" means "on the same level as everybody else" a lot more than it means "fuck those bastards" so calm down and stop putting words in my mouth. I said they're a bit weak right now because they are. Everybody should realize that. The whole point I'm trying to make, and I don't even know why I bother anymore, is that as a Zerg player, the new queen feels good, and not in a "hey, not its MY turn to be OP" kind of way, but in a general "this just feels better" kind of way. The problem with Zerg is that early units are hugely detrimental to your viability to win games to the point where as Zerg, its not uncommon to lose games because you did an early attack, it was successful, and you lose anyway because, well, that's how it is... The same goes with defending. See what your opponent is making, make the perfect counter, lose anyway because you had to make units to defend. The queen acting as an early game "safe" unit fixes a giant gaping hole in the Zerg design. Now its time for Blizzard to fix another gaping hole in the game, Terrans endgame units.
Having queens 'just feel better' to zerg players when you buff them doesn't seem like a sound basis for balance. Reapers felt pretty damn good to me before they were nerfed 2 years ago too.
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On June 25 2012 00:24 gfever wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 00:13 zmansman17 wrote:On June 25 2012 00:06 gfever wrote:
I'm GM and I don't find the queen range changes much of my play at all. I open hellion banshee in TvZ and still kill zergs if they take greedy 3rds or roast their drone lines, even aganist 5+ queens. Its just ppl havn't tried to push the limits of positioning and tactical runbys yet.
For lategame, terrans keep thinking that army vs army is enough. They havn't utilized PFs in main points on the map. If you have say 2 PFs in the middle of the map which you should take inorder to counter mass queen builds since their army is much smaller and would most likely tech to broodlords. Once you take that position you can just starve the zerg by snipeing expos from different angles because you have control of the middle. Broodlords are slow so his only option is to attack straight on. He can't protect all his bases once the map is cut in half. Mass repair the 2 pfs and it will never fall. Theres too much stuff pros arn't doing enough, they need to pull ideas from BW now for the metagames to shift. I don't believe this until I see replays. If you are a high level TvZ, the new queen buff will certainly affect you http://drop.sc/203983http://drop.sc/203984http://drop.sc/203985http://drop.sc/203986Heres 4 replays demostrating what I mean. I believe these are early-mid game harassment styles, this was played the week b4 GM for the this new season.
Comon dude don't lie. None of these games are GM worthy and none of the players, including you, are GM.
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On June 25 2012 00:31 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 00:14 sGs.Stregon wrote:On June 25 2012 00:07 Jermstuddog wrote:
I never said they deserve to be underwhelming, stop acting like I did.
I think T could probably use a slight buff to snipe (make it useful vs Broodlords, but not ultras). That would fix their legit TvZ woes.
I would also say removing Thor energy would work wonders for late game TvP.
The queen change, overall, is a good thing for the health of the game.
terran doesn't need help in the early game, and reverting the queen change is a bad move. What Terran lacks is a reason to go to endgame. That's where Blizzard should be looking next. On June 24 2012 23:51 Jermstuddog wrote:
So Terran starting the game OP as fuck and getting nerfed down to mere mortal levels justifies things like this?
I threw it out there so the stupidity of the statement would be apparent, but I guess things like that are lost in a thread like this.
I mean... Yeah... t seems a bit weak in the MU, but that suggestion is just retarded... And yet... People rally behind it like its a good idea. Anything pro-terran flies around here it seems. You are delusional if you honestly belive you never said that Terran didnt deserve the be underwhelming.. Sure mabey you didnt outright say it, but that bold part that i unerlined from your previous posts, basically says that Terran deserves to be underwhelming, as you later in that comment even admit Terran is weak in the MU, and then imply Terran players are retarded because they want some sort of buff for once. "Mere mortal levels" means "on the same level as everybody else" a lot more than it means "fuck those bastards" so calm down and stop putting words in my mouth. I said they're a bit weak right now because they are. Everybody should realize that. The whole point I'm trying to make, and I don't even know why I bother anymore, is that as a Zerg player, the new queen feels good, and not in a "hey, not its MY turn to be OP" kind of way, but in a general "this just feels better" kind of way. The problem with Zerg is that early units are hugely detrimental to your viability to win games to the point where as Zerg, its not uncommon to lose games because you did an early attack, it was successful, and you lose anyway because, well, that's how it is... The same goes with defending. See what your opponent is making, make the perfect counter, lose anyway because you had to make units to defend. The queen acting as an early game "safe" unit fixes a giant gaping hole in the Zerg design. Now its time for Blizzard to fix another gaping hole in the game, Terrans endgame units.
Terran is not at the same level as the other two races, as you even admit yourself that they are weaker..
Zerg did not need the Queen buff, if it was reverted ((which it wont be, because that would require BLizzard to admit they messed up)), 6 queen openings would still be viable ((just like they were before, as I cant think of the guys name, but there is a zerg player who was doing them pre queen buff anyways.. It just wasnt a stop all opening, and it was considered risky doing it because it could be countered)).. the thing about the queen range buff, is it literally shuts down everything terran can do to harass early game - short of proxing a bunker or PF - and as Blizzard has said themselves, Terran HAS to do damage early/mid game, if they want to survive lategame.. But buffing the queen range has effectivly shut Terran early/mid game down..
I am sure it does feel good playing as zerg knowing that just making 6 queens shuts down all forms of harass a Terran player does, allowing you to get a fast 3rd 4th and 5th unmolested ((or switch into a 2 base all in, if you see the Terran trying to play greedy to keep up)).. The main problem I am seeing, is zerg players biggest complaint is them having to play reactionary, with the reactionary race pre queen buff. Why should zerg be able to just do whatever they feel like and be safe doing it ((you know, the same argument zergs made against Terran since beta.. only now its an irrelivant argument, because zergs are the ones doing whatever they want, and terrans are just bad))?
For compairison, in Bw a zerg can take a fast 3rd against Terran, but they can also lose the game because of it, whereas in ScToo zerg can now take a fast 3rd against Terran, and not worry about losing no matter what, because Queens are now the best defending units zerg has((to add on top of them being a macro mechanic in and of themselves, and also being a caster being able to spread creep))..
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