EPTI'm done, you win.
1 Month later... Is Queen Range still too strong [TvZ]? -…
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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed. 12:09 KST Page 98 | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
I'm done, you win. | ||
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Tsubbi
Germany7967 Posts
korean tlpd shows a perfect 50% winratio again in june (41-41) so far | ||
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][Primarch][
Sweden302 Posts
On June 24 2012 20:00 CatNzHat wrote: I think that there is probably a way for the matchup to balance out if there are no more patches ever, maybe it will involve going pure marine medivac and using ravens with seeker missle to counter banelings/infestors, but it still doesn't change the fact that we lost a lot of great early game interaction between queens hellions spines and speedlings. and how will any raven vs infestors battle be won by the ravens? Will the Z choose not to fungal? You'll never win that battle straight up. | ||
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Neurosis
United States893 Posts
On June 24 2012 20:00 Tsubbi wrote: btw you whiny terrans korean tlpd shows a perfect 50% winratio again in june (41-41) so far How about outside korea? | ||
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redruMBunny
74 Posts
On June 24 2012 15:26 KaRath_ wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=346873 - RO32 interviews Ryung - "Playing on NA Server resulted in TvZ all loss" DRG (probably best Zerg atm, more than probably actually) - "This is required, it's a great time to try for the gold, have to win a gold when zergs have the advantage" MKP (probably second best Terran behind MVP) in response - "It's the most unbalanced match-up in history, before the patch (my) TvZ win-rate was around 60%, now it's plummeted to 10%. I'm really lost, why did this happen, I've studied alot of counter zerg strategies, and I haven't found any solutions yet. In hindsight it's (strategies) all like that game on metropolis, playing to the late-game and setting up the prefect defense all around, it's kind of a solution with out a solution. I I've watched alot of zergs that do well on ladder's records, alot of people basically haven't lost to Terran in a whole week. It's basically impossible for a terran with the same skill level as the zerg to win. Unless you all-in, or the opponent's psyche collapses, or your luck is just too good, it's hard to win. Even in practice I don't want to play TvZ, I always lose." That said, Violet did say this - "Zerg definitely got more powerful, but personally I just feel that other races were sniping zergs too easily before, so now they are finding zergs hard. ZvP hasn't changed match, ZvT is improved, because Terrans are too focused (affected) on the queens, so they are playing very cowardly in ZvT, that's why this phenomenon exists now." But I do remember top-tier Terrans stating that this is the first time their win-rate has completely plummated, and Zergs saying that's it's become better/2ez So you dug up the quotes and sourcing, thank you for taking the time to do this. But it still changes nothing regarding the point I've been trying to make. This thread is about the queen. Not about the ZvT matchup. This has been my point all along. Where is this common consensus among pros that queens by themselves are OP? I keep seeing Zerg OP. Even the quotes you pulled out say Zerg OP. Not Queen OP. Obviously there's some relation. You didn't have Zerg OP as much before patch, and the queen was the major change, so therefore Queen OP, right? I say no. Zerg OP =/= Queen OP. Queens just made Zerg OP easy to get to. Imagine you're an alcoholic and there's a locked closet full of whiskey. Someone hands you a key to the closet. The way I see it, people are arguing over the suspicious person that is handing out keys, or are saying that keys are problems and the root of evil. To support the position that keys are evil, since keys enable you to get alcohol, keys must be the problem. Etc. It sounds pretty ridiculous when put this way. The problem isn't the key. The problem is the alcohol and the alcoholism. Really, I don't see things as being quite that clear cut. But the point is there. -- Isn't the whole point of the zerg that they're supposed to be a base up? Where is that happening with triple OCC against triple hatchery? Where is that happening with early Hellion harass? There are posters saying "Oh, hellions weren't a problem, all they did was prevent sling/bling and force tech and keep zerg off 3rd, contain creep, etc." That was EXACTLY the problem. I think Blizzard looked at what was happening, and said "You know, this isn't supposed to be this way. Zerg are supposed to be a base up. Not happening because of hellions. Imba, time for a patch." But then, you could say isn't part of the point of the zerg supposed to be that other races are more efficient on a cost/supply basis? So why are Terran running into this problem, when zerg hits +1 base and have infestors? At that point, shouldn't Terran still be able to fight Zerg off, isn't that the design philosophy? Why is Terran getting steamrollered at that point? (Or okay, I think really, most players aren't claiming steamroll. But they claim imba.) But those are two different issues. One is queen OP. The other is ZvT queen imba. | ||
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shizna
United Kingdom803 Posts
good for terran because they're no longer forced to use hellions, because they're no longer 20 times better than other options good for zerg because they're less likely to be crippled by hellions rebuff ghost snipe: good for terran because they actually have a decent lategame unit good for zerg because they're no longer humiliated through winning a game where the terran played 10 times better. | ||
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Neurosis
United States893 Posts
Don't even know where to start with redrumbunny's post. | ||
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SiroKO
France721 Posts
So you accept as a given his glaringly obvious false stats ? http://www.virtualsalt.com/rhetoric.htm Zerg won pretty much every single tournament lately, more GSL code A Zergs qualified than every other single race... | ||
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DuckNuked
France60 Posts
korean tlpd shows a perfect 50% winratio again in june (41-41) so far With how many 11/11 ? I'm watching GSL/GSTL everyday, and, there's no way, even if it's 50/50 right now in these tournaments (whiwh i strongly doubt), there's no way it means the mu have settled itself. It's like it was just after the patch. No metagame shift, a lot of new builds have been tried, with no one giving real satisfaction. | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
On June 24 2012 20:00 Tsubbi wrote: btw you whiny terrans korean tlpd shows a perfect 50% winratio again in june (41-41) so far Please don't be diminutive towards other posters even if they aggravate you. It is not conducive to productive conversation. You may find it cathartic to call people out on how they act but they will just respond to you and it will reignite the malaise in this thread. Uh, the original shit storm was based on rates inside korea so.. I wouldn't say it matters what the win rate internationally is. Everyone freaked the fuck out because the win rate in Korea was low. | ||
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Neurosis
United States893 Posts
On June 24 2012 20:05 SiroKO wrote: So you accept as a given his glaringly obvious false stats ? http://www.virtualsalt.com/rhetoric.htm Zerg won pretty much every single tournament lately, more GSL code A Zergs qualified than every other single race... I don't, but even if they were true I already know that outside korea terran must be miserably failing in the match up. The reason for that is because the terran players that are winning so much in korea are mostly ex bw pros, they're simply just better players. I know people don't want to believe that but its true, sorry. They've been nerfing terran around better players for a long time now. | ||
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CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr
544 Posts
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On June 24 2012 20:00 Tsubbi wrote: btw you whiny terrans korean tlpd shows a perfect 50% winratio again in june (41-41) so far Where can i check this? | ||
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Lysanias
Netherlands8351 Posts
On June 24 2012 20:11 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote: tvz needs a balance patch its a fact if u disagree u dont play the game at a halfway decent level zerg progamers think so too get over it and move on, david kim hurry pls. terrans progamers have better zvt than tvz/tvt nowadays It's actualy not a fact, that's why it's a discusion. | ||
opterown
Australia54784 Posts
2-1 curious 2-1 symbol 2-1 hyun #terranhope | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On June 24 2012 20:14 Lysanias wrote: It's actualy not a fact, that's why it's a discusion. This discussion actually only helps to realize what is indeed a fact... I don't think I've ever read a thread with so many constructive posts where people reprezenting all three races agree there is a problem in TvZ. You might skip those obvious troll posts, but other than that... | ||
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yeint
Estonia2329 Posts
On June 24 2012 17:14 Adrenal6land wrote: Hellion : 100 minerals 0 gas 30 build time 2 supply 5 range (you can build 2 at a time) queen : 150 minerals 0gas 50 build time 2 supply 5 range what are people complaining about? Queens are tier 1. If we didn't need to build a rax and a factory beforehand you'd have a point. | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On June 24 2012 20:37 Probe1 wrote: Curses, if only you didn't have to build infrastructure you were going to build anyway. Queens are killing the mass marine, no medivac TvZ style. Patch plz. I expected better from you. | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
On June 24 2012 20:17 opterown wrote: marineking's run in the IPL5 qualifier: 2-1 curious 2-1 symbol 2-1 hyun #terranhope I wonder if the rest of the games looked like the one I just saw between MKP and Hyun. As in Hyun has half of Entombed Valley covered in creep, is maxed on crackling/infestor/ultra/bane and then instead of secuing his lead and starving MKP out (who has no chance of taking a 5th ever) he takes all his stuff and a-moves into a multi-tiered siege tank setup while blowing 25 banes up on a single thor. | ||
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