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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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On June 28 2012 03:10 HeroMystic wrote:
Just saw KawaiiRice transition from Bio into Mass BC/Raven/Viking with 2 Ghosts as support. EMP'd Infestors (they were all stupidly clumped together) and HSM Corrupters (again, all clumped together). This was also on Metropolis.
I'm really wondering if the BC transition is a legit one when Zerg never bothers to split their units.
Any strategy that relies on your opponent making huge newbie mistakes is typically not a good strategy outside of ladder games. So whether or not this transition is a "legit" one is entirely up to your definition of "legit".
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The Queen buff was definitely huge but by no means is it broken or overpowered. They really help against early cheese and of course they can really damper a hellion openers. But I still see hellions used to great effect. You have to either make a couple more hellions (4 may not do the damage you want anymore) but I've seen mineral lines wiped out to 6 hellions. Queens kill them very slowly. They can still work wonders. But now you can't make 4 hellions and wipe out both mineral lines and trolololol i win. (You may still wins like that in lower leagues and maybe the occasional fluke, but it is not consistent) But most of all, get creative! Hellions and 2rax are not the only openers vs zerg. Give it a shot.
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I think bc raven is a viable transition but only at 5 base status. I think if you whittle down slowly Witj your remaining bio while massing the air units, pumping all the upgrades you need, and then overwhelming the Zerg could and does work. I posted a replay of this earlier in the thread, on shakuras, just locked my side of the map with PFs, uses my bio to deny the 5th and 6th bases, and transitiOned into 6 port bc Viking with a few thors and ravenS, plus enough bio to fill my max.
Saying that I won the big battle by nuking in the middle of it and watching 8 broods and a ton of other stuff go up in nuclear flame.
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On June 28 2012 06:26 spbelky wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 03:10 HeroMystic wrote:
Just saw KawaiiRice transition from Bio into Mass BC/Raven/Viking with 2 Ghosts as support. EMP'd Infestors (they were all stupidly clumped together) and HSM Corrupters (again, all clumped together). This was also on Metropolis.
I'm really wondering if the BC transition is a legit one when Zerg never bothers to split their units. Any strategy that relies on your opponent making huge newbie mistakes is typically not a good strategy outside of ladder games. So whether or not this transition is a "legit" one is entirely up to your definition of "legit".
No player is perfect and all players make mistakes, including MVP. Corruptors clump naturally due to their low attack range. Infestors can be spread out, but also clump up more the farther they travel, since they have a different move speed that the rest of the Zerg super army. It is not unreasonable to try to catch the EMP before the zerg is able to split them up.
Did KawaiiRice use the PDD to support his vikings/BCs? It can tank quite a few Corruptor shots and may be better than the HSM, since you could throw down more than one.
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United States5660 Posts
On June 28 2012 03:10 HeroMystic wrote:
Just saw KawaiiRice transition from Bio into Mass BC/Raven/Viking with 2 Ghosts as support. EMP'd Infestors (they were all stupidly clumped together) and HSM Corrupters (again, all clumped together). This was also on Metropolis.
I'm really wondering if the BC transition is a legit one when Zerg never bothers to split their units.
link to vod?
also metropolis is known as one of those maps you CAN turtle really badly on, so... map dependent.
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On June 28 2012 06:46 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 06:26 spbelky wrote:On June 28 2012 03:10 HeroMystic wrote:
Just saw KawaiiRice transition from Bio into Mass BC/Raven/Viking with 2 Ghosts as support. EMP'd Infestors (they were all stupidly clumped together) and HSM Corrupters (again, all clumped together). This was also on Metropolis.
I'm really wondering if the BC transition is a legit one when Zerg never bothers to split their units. Any strategy that relies on your opponent making huge newbie mistakes is typically not a good strategy outside of ladder games. So whether or not this transition is a "legit" one is entirely up to your definition of "legit". No player is perfect and all players make mistakes, including MVP. Corruptors clump naturally due to their low attack range. Infestors can be spread out, but also clump up more the farther they travel, since they have a different move speed that the rest of the Zerg super army. It is not unreasonable to try to catch the EMP before the zerg is able to split them up. Did KawaiiRice use the PDD to support his vikings/BCs? It can tank quite a few Corruptor shots and may be better than the HSM, since you could throw down more than one.
Having watched the game, I can confirm that Tgun played absolutely atrociously, and that the viability of the strategy is entirely dependent on the map (Metropolis) which can very easily be fortified with PFs in the main chokes.
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On June 28 2012 06:35 Danners933 wrote:
The Queen buff was definitely huge but by no means is it broken or overpowered. They really help against early cheese and of course they can really damper a hellion openers. But I still see hellions used to great effect. You have to either make a couple more hellions (4 may not do the damage you want anymore) but I've seen mineral lines wiped out to 6 hellions. Queens kill them very slowly. They can still work wonders. But now you can't make 4 hellions and wipe out both mineral lines and trolololol i win. (You may still wins like that in lower leagues and maybe the occasional fluke, but it is not consistent) But most of all, get creative! Hellions and 2rax are not the only openers vs zerg. Give it a shot.
Funny how the most innovative race is the race you're telling to be more creative. We create builds, everyone whines and gets it nerfed.
And the thing is, Terran's only strength is the early game. You stop our early game and you've already won against a player of equal skill. We do not have a late game. So why the hell do you completely make the only strength of Terran irrelevant? Why would you do that?
From what I can tell, you're a low level player because you think hellion openers were a problem. Because any decent zerg player doesn't have problems with hellions.
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On June 28 2012 06:55 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 06:35 Danners933 wrote:
The Queen buff was definitely huge but by no means is it broken or overpowered. They really help against early cheese and of course they can really damper a hellion openers. But I still see hellions used to great effect. You have to either make a couple more hellions (4 may not do the damage you want anymore) but I've seen mineral lines wiped out to 6 hellions. Queens kill them very slowly. They can still work wonders. But now you can't make 4 hellions and wipe out both mineral lines and trolololol i win. (You may still wins like that in lower leagues and maybe the occasional fluke, but it is not consistent) But most of all, get creative! Hellions and 2rax are not the only openers vs zerg. Give it a shot. Funny how the most innovative race is the race you're telling to be more creative. We create builds, everyone whines and gets it nerfed. And the thing is, Terran's only strength is the early game. You stop our early game and you've already won against a player of equal skill. We do not have a late game. So why the hell do you completely make the only strength of Terran irrelevant? Why would you do that? From what I can tell, you're a low level player because you think hellion openers were a problem. Because any decent zerg player doesn't have problems with hellions.
What we could do is tke away Terran's dominance of the early game, and in return buff Terran midgame and late-game.
If Blizzard could let go of their sacred cow and actually nerf the marine while buffing everything else, that might actually happen.
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United States5660 Posts
On June 28 2012 06:55 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 06:35 Danners933 wrote:
The Queen buff was definitely huge but by no means is it broken or overpowered. They really help against early cheese and of course they can really damper a hellion openers. But I still see hellions used to great effect. You have to either make a couple more hellions (4 may not do the damage you want anymore) but I've seen mineral lines wiped out to 6 hellions. Queens kill them very slowly. They can still work wonders. But now you can't make 4 hellions and wipe out both mineral lines and trolololol i win. (You may still wins like that in lower leagues and maybe the occasional fluke, but it is not consistent) But most of all, get creative! Hellions and 2rax are not the only openers vs zerg. Give it a shot. Funny how the most innovative race is the race you're telling to be more creative. We create builds, everyone whines and gets it nerfed. And the thing is, Terran's only strength is the early game. You stop our early game and you've already won against a player of equal skill. We do not have a late game. So why the hell do you completely make the only strength of Terran irrelevant? Why would you do that? From what I can tell, you're a low level player because you think hellion openers were a problem. Because any decent zerg player doesn't have problems with hellions.
plus, if you make a bunch of hellions more than 6 then (from example the normal 13 gas reactor hellion opening), you're going to be slowing down your own build and you'll just be stuck with a bunch of hellions (or no hellions if you repeatedly try to suicide them for whatever reason), and no infrastructure (like more barracks) since you used a lot of your minerals on making more hellions.
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On June 28 2012 06:58 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 06:55 Femari wrote:On June 28 2012 06:35 Danners933 wrote:
The Queen buff was definitely huge but by no means is it broken or overpowered. They really help against early cheese and of course they can really damper a hellion openers. But I still see hellions used to great effect. You have to either make a couple more hellions (4 may not do the damage you want anymore) but I've seen mineral lines wiped out to 6 hellions. Queens kill them very slowly. They can still work wonders. But now you can't make 4 hellions and wipe out both mineral lines and trolololol i win. (You may still wins like that in lower leagues and maybe the occasional fluke, but it is not consistent) But most of all, get creative! Hellions and 2rax are not the only openers vs zerg. Give it a shot. Funny how the most innovative race is the race you're telling to be more creative. We create builds, everyone whines and gets it nerfed. And the thing is, Terran's only strength is the early game. You stop our early game and you've already won against a player of equal skill. We do not have a late game. So why the hell do you completely make the only strength of Terran irrelevant? Why would you do that? From what I can tell, you're a low level player because you think hellion openers were a problem. Because any decent zerg player doesn't have problems with hellions. What we could do is tke away Terran's dominance of the early game, and in return buff Terran midgame and late-game. If Blizzard could let go of their sacred cow and actually nerf the marine while buffing everything else, that might actually happen.
Then how about you don't give Zerg an unneeded buff before looking to buff Terran? No one was calling out for this. There wasn't a large outcry because the match-up was balanced. This was, and still is a horrible move by Blizzard.
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Hmm dunno y this is such a big deal. The queen range yes is great to stop the ridiculous hellion run by that would happen and annihilating all your workers. However, hellions still can control map control rather well early on I believe this is the purpose they should serve. Hellions with cloaked banshee early on will give full map control and prevent queens from coming out to snipe hellions as a zerg wont have an overseer early. This will allow the terran to freely take his natural and possibly his 3rd. Roaches to counter the hellions will also be sniped by the banshee and lings that try to do a run by will be killed by the hellions. I think the range attack for the queen is good its just people have to relearn how to use units like banshee and hellions in conjunction early on to gain map control and force the zerg either to make units he doesnt want to have to make or to prevent the zerg from taking a first 3rd forcing him into a 2 base tech.
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On June 28 2012 06:46 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 06:26 spbelky wrote:On June 28 2012 03:10 HeroMystic wrote:
Just saw KawaiiRice transition from Bio into Mass BC/Raven/Viking with 2 Ghosts as support. EMP'd Infestors (they were all stupidly clumped together) and HSM Corrupters (again, all clumped together). This was also on Metropolis.
I'm really wondering if the BC transition is a legit one when Zerg never bothers to split their units. Any strategy that relies on your opponent making huge newbie mistakes is typically not a good strategy outside of ladder games. So whether or not this transition is a "legit" one is entirely up to your definition of "legit". No player is perfect and all players make mistakes, including MVP. Corruptors clump naturally due to their low attack range. Infestors can be spread out, but also clump up more the farther they travel, since they have a different move speed that the rest of the Zerg super army. It is not unreasonable to try to catch the EMP before the zerg is able to split them up. Did KawaiiRice use the PDD to support his vikings/BCs? It can tank quite a few Corruptor shots and may be better than the HSM, since you could throw down more than one.
The Corrupters were so clumped together that KawaiiRice honestly didn't need to use PDD, but no one can downplay the usefulness of the spell when coupled with BCs. Of course the issue is transitioning to it, which so far I have to agree is map dependent. So far we've seen it happen on Metropolis, Shakuras, and Atlantis Spaceship, all of which are turtle-heavy maps (Atlantis less of a turtle map but it's so huge anyway).
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On June 28 2012 07:09 LimeNade wrote:
Hmm dunno y this is such a big deal. The queen range yes is great to stop the ridiculous hellion run by that would happen and annihilating all your workers. However, hellions still can control map control rather well early on I believe this is the purpose they should serve. Hellions with cloaked banshee early on will give full map control and prevent queens from coming out to snipe hellions as a zerg wont have an overseer early. This will allow the terran to freely take his natural and possibly his 3rd. Roaches to counter the hellions will also be sniped by the banshee and lings that try to do a run by will be killed by the hellions. I think the range attack for the queen is good its just people have to relearn how to use units like banshee and hellions in conjunction early on to gain map control and force the zerg either to make units he doesnt want to have to make or to prevent the zerg from taking a first 3rd forcing him into a 2 base tech.
If you're teching to hellion/banshee, especially with cloak, your third is going to be WAY late. Map control is useless if the Zerg just spams drones on his three bases.
The only hellion/banshee I've seen work is a very aggressive PUSH with hellion/banshee and a few marauders. But that's nearly an all-in, if it doesn't kill the third or natural it's gg.
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Nah, balance is fine, everything is great, we (as terran) are bad we just need to improve that's all. We are just bitching about balance for no reason.
Getting owned by a-clic when you try your best during all the game by a zerg/toss who got half of my apm is fine. I'll go with it.
User was warned for this post
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On June 28 2012 08:42 k1ruaa wrote:
Nah, balance is fine, everything is great, we (as terran) are bad we just need to improve that's all. We are just bitching about balance for no reason.
Getting owned by a-clic when you try your best during all the game by a zerg/toss who got half of my apm is fine. I'll go with it.
Yep, for me it seems like zerg players are just so much better than same level protoses/terrans. When i drop and "outplay" terrans and tosses it seems like they are very vurneable. But those zergs are just so good at handling everything that its hard to find anything to break their defenses. Also their army control in 200/200 fights seems so good that i cant even kill half of zergs army even tho im in defensive position with siegetanks and spreaded army. But guess this is the result of zerg players playing 2years underpowered race and practicing mechanics and stuff, now they are just level above everyone else.
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16938 Posts
Alright, this thread has run its course.
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EPT
