This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
I wonder how many roach baneling all ins i would lose to going hellion/ghost. I also wonder how many transfuses the queens will get down before my ghost runs out of energy hmmmm
On June 28 2012 02:14 Picklebread wrote: I wonder how many roach baneling all ins i would lose to going hellion/ghost. I also wonder how many transfuses the queens will get down before my ghost runs out of energy hmmmm
I know it's a dumb build, but you could just use 1 EMP on them and not worry about that
I love when he hunter seeker missles the infested terran, and the thing he immediately said afterward was that "it didn't even kill many".
hunter seeker missiles is worthless in its current state. the dmg reduction on splash range severely hurts the spell and only 1-2 target really take full dmg. 125 energy is overkill too
I've been going 15cc into 2port banshee followed by a marine/hellion/banshee/SCV all-in. It's gimmicky as fuck but given the current state of TvZ I'll gladly do that until a patch rather than lose every single attempt at a macro game.
On June 28 2012 02:14 Picklebread wrote: I wonder how many roach baneling all ins i would lose to going hellion/ghost. I also wonder how many transfuses the queens will get down before my ghost runs out of energy hmmmm
I know it's a dumb build, but you could just use 1 EMP on them and not worry about that
1 emp hits 1 queen, cause they are quite huge. try it yourself, its not easy to hit more than 1 queens with it
On June 28 2012 00:56 themell wrote: speaking of different builds, ketroc has been doing mass ravens (40+) and he's rank 36 masters and has an apm of about 50.
I think idra, talked on STOG that bio + raven were pretty powerful. I dont really memeber but he said that he was playing and ecountered some people doing it. Not sure if it a meta game change but considering that bio is quickly starting to become the new thing, it might not be a bad thing since terra are making less tanks, and with less tanks, comes more gas and more gas has to go somewhere. Maybe just more medivac? Raven? Ghost (probalb not too mineral intensive)? It has to go some where...probably just more medivac imo to counter the fungal
I've been watching Ketroc's vids for a bit now, and from what I can tell, Ravens seem to work, even with the new zerg changes.
some things I've noticed: infestors are actually really bad against ravens once you get a lot of ravens ravens are very very VERY cost efficient ravens are very light on minerals, so you can afford to build dozens of CCs, PFs, and barracks he has 50 apm (and bad micro/macro), but he still does extremely well. I'm surprised he's in master with that apm ravens will always win base races his current best matchup is against zerg, even with the new zerg changes.
basically, for end game, he does this: 1. ravens with PDD and a couple vikings will shut down corruptors and broodlords. 2. seeker missiles one-shot infestors 3. once he gets air superiority, he'll build a couple banshees to clean up all the ultras. 4. send his vikings across the map to kill all overlords while ravens kill the bases.
here's him going against mass infestors a week ago.
He leaves the Z to macro completely for free for so long that any decent Z player that knows how to react to Ravens (i.e. just smash your front door as you're making them) would have killed him. Any Roach/Bane build would have hurt him big time and put him back way behind, and the Z's that were using the Infestors really had no idea how to control their units.
I'm sure you didn't watch the video, because you'd see he built a PF at his natural to prevent any aggression. He doesn't need minerals, so he doesn't need a CC. Look at the other vids of him playing. I believe his current win rate is in the 60% to 70% against zerg. That's high for the new zerg changes. Also, he says that zerg usually macros hard but it's ok since the ravens are so cost effective. You may think it's stupid, but you can't argue against the numbers and his win rate.
Bling bust through depots that are walling, flood lings into main/natural line, win. It's not that hard. Pro players do not use Ravens for a reason; and it isn't because they didn't experiment with them. Going dual Port Ravens grant you 0 map control, and just allows the Z to expand for free or straight up kill you since you don't have anything to prevent Bling busts.
If you watched his vids, you'd know that bling bust means auto-win for him.
He opens with engineer bay block, fast expand into CC. Zerg scouts the CC, and does ling, bling or roach all-in. Ling all-in will hit the PF and Ketroc will auto-win against it. And he doesn't build supply depots, he builds a barracks wall. He doesn't need minerals for a raven build, so all the minerals go into defense. Even if lings flood in, he has a seperate wall at the top of the ramp, and lings will never be able to kill the PF. Roach all-in will hit later, and by then he'll make banshees.
seriously, stop talking out of your ass and look at the vids first before talking. He's masters and he gets paired with with GM zergs. And this is him with 50apm and the worse micro and macro i've ever seen.
And he gives complete and FULL map control to the Z player. As stated before, his build will autolose against any high level Z. Sure, he wins because Z players are not accustomed to seeing Ravens. No shit. I can build like the most gimmicky shitty unit in BW and beat shit tons of good players (aka the damn Scout), but that doesn't mean it's a legitimate build. Going dual port Ravens off a Wall/PF = almost pure cheese. It is highly dependent on your opponent not scouting, and also reacting terribly to them.
Not only did the Z completely fail in his control of his Infestors (walked into auto turret lines constantly) he also allowed himself to get Seeker Missile non-stopped at a certain point which was complete stupid of him.
There are so many holes in his build that are easily scouted out, and the level of play of that particular Z with the Mass Infestors was atrocious.
well, I still find it fun to watch. Ketroc seems like a fun guy with interesting builds.
On June 27 2012 17:13 cydial wrote: Exploring mech openings, exploring SK mass mass marine medivac, raven style, etc etc. There's still hope!
I mean, we all stopped bitching about protoss for the most part didn't we? Yep, because a late game protoss is believe it or not, BEATABLE. If you play more actively with scans, vikings, ghosts, before you engage, and when you do engage you send marauders first before marines ( I can't even fucking believe how many pros still just ball a move and get their marines instantly murked by splash).
The only real reason the bitching of TvP has stopped is because TvZ is in like 10x times worse shape. In TvP there is atleast a window where you can win or get far enough ahead to be even.
The problem with your statement is, should terran have to always play perfectly to win, if zerg/toss don't have to? Players can still improve a ton, don't get me wrong, but that can be said about all players. Terran shouldn't just suck until players start coming close to the skill ceiling.
PS. Sadly most builds have simply been tried and tested. If there is going to be some silver bullet, it will be a build that has been tested extensively already(as such, I dare you find a unit combo that hasn't been played around with).
I'm not here to talk about what the game should be like, I'm terran and I feel that protoss and zerg can a-move with impunity while terran can't ever do such a thing because of storm, banelings, fungal, etc. What the game is like is Terran needs to micro fucking amazing against splash or an a moving chargelot / ling ultra army.
However, if Terran does play perfect with their micro, then what can the opposing race really do? Terran skill is more like exponential decay and zerg/protoss are linear. It gets to a point that no amount of micro on the zerg or protoss side can over come the vastly more microable terran units.
When terrans get better at microing and controlling their units, zergs and protosses get buffed by Blizzard on a numbers level. It's a fundamental flaw in the game which keeps happening because P/Z are more limited in what player skill can allow for compared to terran because of the shitty design of the races, and it screws the ladder up every single time it happens while the pro players keep adjusting to it by practicing more and more. At some point Blizzard needs to stop focusing at making the game statistically balanced and rework their design to allow P/Z to be more micro and skill friendly than they are now.
Blizzard has stated that their intensions with the new mech units is to make Terran a little easier.
On topic, I would have loved to see how the overlord speed buff would have worked out without the queen buff. I wonder if that would have been enough to give zergs their much needed scouting information.
Yeah, I had written about the same thing. It seems odd that they decided to do both when overlord speed would have sufficed.
On June 28 2012 02:14 Picklebread wrote: I wonder how many roach baneling all ins i would lose to going hellion/ghost. I also wonder how many transfuses the queens will get down before my ghost runs out of energy hmmmm
I know it's a dumb build, but you could just use 1 EMP on them and not worry about that
LOL so thats starcraft you make a fucking change at 1 unit only slilghtly What goes then .... A 50000 lettter thread Noobs raging over 135 sites of commentary
On June 28 2012 02:31 noiamnotaprogamer wrote: LOL so thats starcraft you make a fucking change at 1 unit only slilghtly What goes then .... A 50000 lettter thread Noobs raging over 135 sites of commentary
On June 28 2012 02:31 noiamnotaprogamer wrote: LOL so thats starcraft you make a fucking change at 1 unit only slilghtly What goes then .... A 50000 lettter thread Noobs raging over 135 sites of commentary
SIlly somehow
um.. yea, you obviously ment 2, but I can see how you wouldnt notice the overlord buff, seeing is how the Queen buff overshadows it completely..
I would rather play zerg when Steps of war was in the game (which i fucking did) than play terran the way it is atm, its fucking total bullshit. TvZ is TOTALLY unwinable. fuck this game Edit: HighmasterEU
On June 28 2012 02:14 Picklebread wrote: I wonder how many roach baneling all ins i would lose to going hellion/ghost. I also wonder how many transfuses the queens will get down before my ghost runs out of energy hmmmm
I know it's a dumb build, but you could just use 1 EMP on them and not worry about that
1 emp hits 1 queen, cause they are quite huge. try it yourself, its not easy to hit more than 1 queens with it
I'd rather not try it, as the whole premise that I made my comment on was that helion ghost is a dumb build that should never work.
Maybe if you just rush Nuke, wipe out his front and then flood him with helions but that seems equally gimmicky.
On June 28 2012 02:14 Picklebread wrote: I wonder how many roach baneling all ins i would lose to going hellion/ghost. I also wonder how many transfuses the queens will get down before my ghost runs out of energy hmmmm
I know it's a dumb build, but you could just use 1 EMP on them and not worry about that
1 emp hits 1 queen, cause they are quite huge. try it yourself, its not easy to hit more than 1 queens with it
I'd rather not try it, as the whole premise that I made my comment on was that helion ghost is a dumb build that should never work.
Maybe if you just rush Nuke, wipe out his front and then flood him with helions but that seems equally gimmicky.
That also should never work because the ghost shouldnt have cloak, and so the queens can snipe it off really easily with 5 range.
Ghosts are an extremely narrow unit in TvZ. They serve only one function, they can snipe/emp psionic units and they are really fucking bad at doing it. They're bad at doing anything else.
For the cost of 2 ghosts and a ghost academy (550/250) you can just throw in a bunch of marauders instead. Marauders, good vs everything on the ground, great vs crawlers solid vs roaches, not great vs queens but at least queens aren't great vs them.
Just saw KawaiiRice transition from Bio into Mass BC/Raven/Viking with 2 Ghosts as support. EMP'd Infestors (they were all stupidly clumped together) and HSM Corrupters (again, all clumped together). This was also on Metropolis.
I'm really wondering if the BC transition is a legit one when Zerg never bothers to split their units.
On June 28 2012 03:10 HeroMystic wrote: Just saw KawaiiRice transition from Bio into Mass BC/Raven/Viking with 2 Ghosts as support. EMP'd Infestors (they were all stupidly clumped together) and HSM Corrupters (again, all clumped together). This was also on Metropolis.
I'm really wondering if the BC transition is a legit one when Zerg never bothers to split their units.
Only possible on Metropolis and maybe like Whirlwind.
On June 28 2012 03:02 iaguz wrote: Why are people talking about Ghost pushes?
Ghosts are an extremely narrow unit in TvZ. They serve only one function, they can snipe/emp psionic units and they are really fucking bad at doing it. They're bad at doing anything else.
For the cost of 2 ghosts and a ghost academy (550/250) you can just throw in a bunch of marauders instead. Marauders, good vs everything on the ground, great vs crawlers solid vs roaches, not great vs queens but at least queens aren't great vs them.
Cause some troll name BeeNu (Banned for 1 week currently), claim that hellion ghost push is counter to 4 queen opening. I really can not see it working but now that he gone, we can get some real discussion.
Like Ketroc displayed, I think raven is possible....but like other said, he gave up alot of map control. This obvioiusly happen when you invest in raven so early. You gotta wait till their energy get high and they get upgrade etc etc and you delay your upgrade and you only start to see them being powerful when you get a high number of them I think it only good to get them once you are on 3 bases which is like mid/late game but that just an estimate.
The reason why raven werent really explored before in TvZ was because 4-6 month ago, zerg made many MANY mutas. So if terran push out with their army, and they lose their army, they lose ALL their raven and it gg right there. Or the raven were largely useless and contained in their base because Mutas would just attack them if they leave (Magic box mutas > HSM). In BW, Irradiate would rip mutas to pieces so the the only thing that could really kill vessels were scourages. Although now infestor are more common mid/late game so infestors are more suspectible to HSM but at same time still good vs raven.
On June 27 2012 17:13 cydial wrote: Exploring mech openings, exploring SK mass mass marine medivac, raven style, etc etc. There's still hope!
I mean, we all stopped bitching about protoss for the most part didn't we? Yep, because a late game protoss is believe it or not, BEATABLE. If you play more actively with scans, vikings, ghosts, before you engage, and when you do engage you send marauders first before marines ( I can't even fucking believe how many pros still just ball a move and get their marines instantly murked by splash).
The only real reason the bitching of TvP has stopped is because TvZ is in like 10x times worse shape. In TvP there is atleast a window where you can win or get far enough ahead to be even.
The problem with your statement is, should terran have to always play perfectly to win, if zerg/toss don't have to? Players can still improve a ton, don't get me wrong, but that can be said about all players. Terran shouldn't just suck until players start coming close to the skill ceiling.
PS. Sadly most builds have simply been tried and tested. If there is going to be some silver bullet, it will be a build that has been tested extensively already(as such, I dare you find a unit combo that hasn't been played around with).
I'm not here to talk about what the game should be like, I'm terran and I feel that protoss and zerg can a-move with impunity while terran can't ever do such a thing because of storm, banelings, fungal, etc. What the game is like is Terran needs to micro fucking amazing against splash or an a moving chargelot / ling ultra army.
However, if Terran does play perfect with their micro, then what can the opposing race really do? Terran skill is more like exponential decay and zerg/protoss are linear. It gets to a point that no amount of micro on the zerg or protoss side can over come the vastly more microable terran units.
When terrans get better at microing and controlling their units, zergs and protosses get buffed by Blizzard on a numbers level. It's a fundamental flaw in the game which keeps happening because P/Z are more limited in what player skill can allow for compared to terran because of the shitty design of the races, and it screws the ladder up every single time it happens while the pro players keep adjusting to it by practicing more and more. At some point Blizzard needs to stop focusing at making the game statistically balanced and rework their design to allow P/Z to be more micro and skill friendly than they are now.
Blizzard has stated that their intensions with the new mech units is to make Terran a little easier.
On topic, I would have loved to see how the overlord speed buff would have worked out without the queen buff. I wonder if that would have been enough to give zergs their much needed scouting information.
Yeah, I had written about the same thing. It seems odd that they decided to do both when overlord speed would have sufficed.
Alternatively, simply the queen buff would have sufficed too.
The problem was that Zerg was too fragile in the early game, and thus needed better scouting or better early defense. Instead of merely giving Zerg one of those, for some reason Blizz decided to improve both dramatically.
EPT
